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An 11-week podcast designed as a companion resource to the Core Series at Chapel Pointe Church. Through deep theological conversations with pastors from our church, our goal is to help you build a deeper understanding of the core truths of Christianity and apply them to your life. From the Bible and Jesus to salvation and the church, our prayer is that you don't just grow in knowledge but that you gain a deeper appreciation for the love, grace, and movement of God in your life. For more resources, visit chapel-pointe.org/core-series.
Well, hey, welcome to this week's episode of The Core Podcast. And I just want to say thanks for being along for this journey as we are diving into some big topics that shape us as followers of Jesus. Really, our prayer and our hope as as a ministry team here at Chapel Point is to help equip you. And that's why this conversation around sin, we believe, is so important. And so what we want to do today is kind of give a framework.
Luke Bilberry:John Van Dyke, one of our elders, was able to unpack this in his sermon. So if you haven't checked that out, make sure you go back and listen to it because he does a really incredible job of helping us understand what sin is and and really how can we begin to walk in the freedom that we know, hopefully, you know, we have in Christ. And we get to talk even more about that in next week issue next week episode about salvation. But we wanna talk about sin, which can be a weighty topic. But, really, our prayer is that if we can begin to talk about it and realize what sin is, it loses its power over us because God is in in the place of working and redeeming and restoring and removing the power of sin in our life that has marred humanity's story from the very beginning.
Luke Bilberry:And so I'm really grateful to be joined by pastor Dan Van Der Werker, over here who leads our community efforts at our church, which means our missions, our community impact, our care and counseling. And Dan does an incredible job of leading a really awesome team to make sure that we're helping people walk and navigate sin. Right? This is what you're really dealing with is the intersection of where God's holiness and our brokenness. Your your team really is at the forefront of leading that.
Luke Bilberry:And then we get to have Sarah Force, one of our worship leaders who helps also lead in our NextGen space as well. And so I'm really grateful to have you guys here. So why don't we kind of I want your words as you're thinking about leading our people that God is is entrusting us to lead and to steward here. I would love for you guys to help define sin kind of in your own words. What would you guys say sin is?
Dan Vandewarker:So I think even in listening to your introduction, thank you for your kindness, but the reality is that every Christian has been given what Paul says is the ministry of reconciliation. So everyone who calls himself a Christ follower has that ministry of reconciliation, meaning that we are all called to help bring the world back to how God intended it to be. And I think through even the message from John Van Dyken, I love how he said that God created the desire for us to have these things, to have love, joy, security, purpose, peace, intimacy, hope, the desire to work, that God created those things in us, and that sin is the distorted desire of those things. And so, if I were just kind of sticking to Sunday morning in the simplicity. I think one of the things that makes it so hard is that they oftentimes start at something good that we desire because God created in us, but because of sin, it has become corrupted.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Yeah, that's good. And how would you impact that, Sarah?
Sarah Force:Yeah, I mean, I would use Romans three twenty three. We're all sinners who have fallen short of the glory of God. So, think of sin as anything that falls short of God's glory, that falls short of his holiness and his perfection. And I think that that often, as Dan, you were saying, that often shows up just in good things that we distort a little bit, that that gets shifted ever so slightly in the wrong direction to suddenly be something that draws us farther from God, farther from his character, his likeness in the way that we even present to other people. And then even internally, something that rifts the relationship a little bit, maybe not in like when you're in Christ, your relationship is secure.
Sarah Force:It is solid, doesn't change. But the intimacy changes. There becomes a need for confession and repentance and that ongoing sanctification and reconciliation that we are reconciled and we still have need for repentance because we are sinners who will continue to fall short of the glory of God.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And that's what I mean, so that's what the the if you're doing a systematic study of the Bible, this word, hermatiology. Right? And maybe there's a better way to pronounce it. That's how I heard it going up in the South.
Luke Bilberry:I don't know exactly fully how you pronounce that, but hermatiology is this idea and it comes with the Greek word. When we look at the scriptures, the word sin, it means missing the mark. Yeah. Right? It's it's missing this standard that there is a bar, a way of being the the idea of how you were created.
Luke Bilberry:Right? That there is this thing that sin now distorts and misses the mark. It breaks what was, and that's really what sin is if you wanna boil it down into its its bare bones moment is to say, this is not how it should be. This is not, dare I say, good enough. I wanna be careful with that word, but this isn't how it's supposed to be.
Luke Bilberry:But where do we see I think one of the things that we've been dealt with in the conversation last week, these these next three last weeks, this week, and the and next week's episode, they're so intertwined around the conversation of who God is, who we are, and and really God's desired restoration, the reconciliation that we were just talking about. So make sure you're listening to these and thinking through these together. But I really love for us to think about because where did sin come from? Because we talked about it week. There can be a presupposition that the culture has that aren't we all good.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Maybe we make bad, but, like, at at a core line nature, we're good. So but it begs the question, well, where does sin come from? Why do we even have to address it? Why would why would God himself, Jesus the Christ, have to die on the cross for sin?
Luke Bilberry:Right? And so these things have to they work together. So where would you guys say, where does sin come from? Why is it so, devious in its nature? How does it why does it distort everything we do?
Luke Bilberry:And let's just kinda start diving into the deep, kind of murky end of understanding what sin is.
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah. So, from right. John mentioned kind of the interactions with Lucifer
Sarah Force:Mhmm.
Dan Vandewarker:And heaven as an act of pride. I think in my mind, when he sets up that question, think of it as when does humanity start to interact with someone, which is in the garden. And yet, I think that is this I think that in each of us, there's the seven deadly sins, right? You have anger, pride, gluttony, sloth, envy
Sarah Force:Lust is the other one.
Dan Vandewarker:Fear, lust. Everything, every sin has a root to it. And I think that the murkiness is a lot of times when we're talking about sin is we jump in and deal with the symptoms rather than dealing with the root of it. Yeah, that's real. And then in preparing for this conversation, I was thinking through even kind of the pattern of the prophets in the Old Testament and how they address sin with people.
Dan Vandewarker:If you look, you'll see some things that are characteristic of it, sin is generational, that it is passed down from generation to generation. It is active and passive. There's things you do intentionally that are sinful. And then there's things that you don't do. In James, you know the thing that's right, you don't do it, that's sin.
Dan Vandewarker:It's objective. There is a right and wrong with sin. And I think if we are not willing to kind of own the characteristics of it and the ripple effect beyond it just being us, man, it has a heyday with us.
Sarah Force:Yeah. Yeah. I think also and also boils down even in the garden to pride and idolatry is wanting what we want over what God wants for us or wanting it more than we want God Himself, want relationship with God Himself. So even in the garden, wanting to be like God, knowing good and evil. That was pride.
Sarah Force:Was them wanting something for themselves, wanting to be like God, wanting to be their own God. And so that sin, sin of pride, that selfishness, wanting to be our own God, wanting our own way is the sin that is inherited through the bullet point of Adam, which is all of us.
Luke Bilberry:Right. Well, that's what like what John said. He said that the root of sin is always misplaced
Sarah Force:Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Like that that is that is where it's coming down to what you guys are highlighting. At its root, it is a misplaced desire of recognizing who God is and the relationship God desires and wants for us. It's it's trying to usurp that moment to go, no. My desires are actually greater than God's, which is wild for people created in the image of God to all of a sudden go, no.
Luke Bilberry:And same thing to kind of the origin, you know, that part you're talking about, with with Lucifer. You've got these passages in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, that are highlighting, what would have happened on the on the other side of the supernatural understanding, this battle between God and Lucifer and what's happening there. But our first encounter, like you said, Dan, is in the garden, and it is simply choosing to do something other than what God said.
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah. And it
Luke Bilberry:is just such a slight twist on the words, a slight deviation that steps into a a life that is far from God. They are expelled out of his presence, the Garden of Eden, and there are now natural consequences for their their sin. And so those are the things when I think about sin, why it's I just I hate it. Right? Right?
Luke Bilberry:Like, I hate it at the end of the day. And it's realizing that in our life. One of the things that I heard you just mentioned in that kind of in what you're unpacking, you unpacked a lot there, Dan. But is there there's this idea and some theologians call it the sins of omission and the sins of commission. I wonder that that might be a helpful place for us even to kind of navigate that sin stepped in because of rebellion, pride, and God in his grace and in his love allowed it because it's not love if it's not a choice.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Yeah. Like, it's it's control. It's compulsion if it's not. And so God in his grace, I think we need to hear that gives his creation these choices.
Luke Bilberry:Therefore, Lucifer falls. Therefore, we, Adam and Eve, and we downstream of that fall, like you mentioned, Sarah. But let's kinda take it that next step. When you think about their sins of omission, their sins of commission, you're highly not. I do the thing I don't want to or I don't do the thing I know I ought to do.
Luke Bilberry:Help us understand what are some examples of that? How can we navigate that? Because once we're made aware of it, that gives us an opportunity to find freedom and hope on the other side of it. Right.
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah. I mean, would say that the majority of people that I interact with, myself included, their greatest challenge is having healthy self awareness in this conversation, right? Is to take ownership of the circumstances that you find yourself in, for men to lead in their families, to own their mistakes, to have a self awareness to say, I did mess up. It is my fault. I'm willing to take the consequences.
Dan Vandewarker:And yet, at the same time, God offers me grace and mercy and forgives me, and I'm no longer a slave to my sin. You think about the level of patience that God had with the people of Israel, where it was just this constant reinvitation back to seek the Lord. Seek the Lord. Seek the Lord. Seek the Lord.
Dan Vandewarker:To love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul, strength. And I think it starts with us having a level of self awareness to say this is where I'm at and to be willing to confess that.
Sarah Force:Yeah. Yeah. It brings the need for humility, too. Like, you cannot be self aware and prideful and find holiness. Like, that's just is going to that's going to cause some disruption.
Sarah Force:They don't that it's not going to work out. There needs to be a Okay, yes, I'm a sinner. And I'm humble enough to recognize that I need to slay my sin. But that I can't stay there. But I need to continue to work out my faith with fear and trembling, acknowledging that I'm a sinner, that I am battling the flesh every single day.
Sarah Force:And also that when I'm in Christ, I'm gifted the Holy Spirit that allows me to work towards holiness, to strive for Christ. And in striving for Christ, find holiness on the other side. Not perfectly, never perfectly. But knowing that we are able to positionally be sanctified at salvation, and then also working out our sanctification every single day through self awareness, acknowledging that, Okay, I'm going to have a natural bent towards sin. What are my motivations in X, Y and Z?
Sarah Force:And choosing to continue to be aware and never really letting yourself stop looking internally to what is my motivation? How am I glorifying Christ in my actions and in my words, etcetera, etcetera?
Luke Bilberry:Yeah, that's really good. One of the things that you were again, you unpacked a lot just a few moments ago, Dan, and so I want to kind of keep diving into some of those is you kind of address the idea that sometimes the sins that we're dealing with are symptomatic sins. Like, they're they're like the tip of an iceberg. If I'm if I'm drawing that, like, on a whiteboard, like, hey, I see this sin is showing up in in my life. There's probably actually so much more underneath the surface that's going on at a heart level.
Luke Bilberry:I'm wondering, like, let's explore that a little bit. How can we help someone? How can how can we identify maybe what's actually what are the questions? What are the scriptures? What are the ideas that can help us move from dealing with something at a topic level, like just on the surface?
Luke Bilberry:And how can we get to that root cause to identify maybe what that sin is?
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah, I think we have to remember that it starts with about a thousand little decisions. A lot of times in this conversation, you're looking for the big thing, the big catastrophic life ending ruining thing. But it starts with a whole bunch of little decisions. It starts with the person who can't relax at night until they have a drink alcohol, the person who can't go to bed until they scroll through all their social media accounts. It starts with seemingly measurably what you might say an innocent attempt at something.
Dan Vandewarker:But the reality is that Satan is using that little stronghold in your life to keep you a slave to it. Right? That was Jesus' call to ministry, to set the oppressed free. And so I think some of it is taking ownership of that in your life. How do you respond to conviction in your life?
Dan Vandewarker:If I'm thinking of a silly example, You think about running to someone at church on Sunday morning that hasn't been there for a long time. Oh, Sarah, nice to see you. I haven't seen you for a little bit, right? My intention is simply just saying, I'm noticing you're here. Haven't seen you for a little bit.
Dan Vandewarker:Oftentimes that person responds back in a way of feeling shame. Oh, well, yeah, I've been busy. You wouldn't sound like that. You would sound like one I've of these been busy. Right.
Dan Vandewarker:I've been busy. I've been yeah. I know. I haven't been here, pastor. Know?
Sarah Force:But
Dan Vandewarker:from from my end, that conviction is not is not that. Right? But a lot of times, we let that feeling of of shame say, oh, well, the Lord wouldn't have me feel shame. And we turn that response of instead of having a godly response to conviction, we have what Adam did in the garden. Right?
Dan Vandewarker:It was her.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Blame shift or whatever.
Dan Vandewarker:So, think it starts with, are you willing to have someone say, hey, I think you have a problem and you're drinking too much? Hey, I think you have an anger problem. Right? The I think you have a pride problem. Mhmm.
Dan Vandewarker:Are you willing to hear that from someone? If someone says that to you, are you gonna, one, ignore them? Two, are you gonna say, no, I don't look at that person over there. They have an anger problem. I'm fine over here.
Dan Vandewarker:I just
Sarah Force:Yeah. Well, they're punching walls. I'm just steaming a little bit. I should be fine.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. Right. Oh, but didn't like, that's I'd jump in there. We all keep going. But that's what Jesus was after.
Luke Bilberry:Like, you've heard it said this. Right? To murder is a sin. So that is a but he's actually saying that's a symptom of a root. Right.
Luke Bilberry:Right? If you have anger, animosity towards anyone else, like, that's that's where if we can begin to go, okay. This is my initial response and then begin to work it back. What am I thinking? What am I feeling?
Luke Bilberry:Like, where does racism stem from? It's that's that's a root. Racism like, that's a symptom sin. It's not a root sin. Right?
Luke Bilberry:It's actually I don't value the imago day I see in the world. Right? That would be I so don't actually value life. So the sin that I have is rooted in a misunderstanding of who God is and therefore who people are. Like, that's maybe that's one way to kind of think through it is to name what's that experience.
Luke Bilberry:Like, what is that sin? Murder, gluttony, adultery? What are we actually saying? I'm not, like with lust, I'm not satisfied. So you're not actually being content with who God has created you to be in it, when the circumstances God has placed you in.
Luke Bilberry:Would that be like a way to think
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah, about and I mean, so lust is an act of control. It's an act of I want control and power over something that doesn't belong to me. And so, I mean, I think the entry point honestly is being vulnerable in biblical community. Because we see in the Bible, we see this formula for God provides healing in the midst of being around fellow believers. And so, it starts very simply, I would say, by showing up consistently and being vulnerable.
Sarah Force:Yeah. I think what's super helpful within that conversation is actually using your emotions as indicators to look beneath the surface, asking yourself the question why. A lot of the time, like, we were given emotions by God for a good reason. And they're not dictators, but they're indicators. We hear this a lot.
Sarah Force:So like not being led by our emotions, but maybe looking at them and saying why. Like, why did I get really angry when this person just talked about an event in front of me, but didn't invite me? Why does that upset me so much? And maybe below that is, okay, well, okay, I wanted to be invited. I value their friendships.
Sarah Force:I'm scared they don't value me. Okay, do I want them to value me maybe more than they value other people? Oh, I have approval of man. I really want people to approve of me. Insecurity.
Sarah Force:So like like you were saying, walking that process back, what is my flow of thought? Why do I have this really strong emotion that showed up over something that maybe isn't that big of a deal? They are indicators of a root idol. That's whether it's approval or comfort is a big one. Control, power, whatever that is, whether it's like maybe framing it in the question of or the statement of my life only has meaning or I'm only have worth if I have power and influence over others, or my life only has meaning if I'm have people who are dependent on me and need me for something.
Sarah Force:If I if I'm able to help, then I have worth. Yeah. Okay, now there's there's things below that. There's idols below that sin below that that needs to be addressed first. And then all of those symptoms, the bigger emotions that seem to respond to maybe not big things, whatever that looks like for individual people, become indicators of, okay, this is a sin that needs to be uprooted.
Luke Bilberry:Right. Because that's that's exactly like what you guys are highlighting is one of the things that John did, I think, a really great job of unpacking in the scriptures. He said, God created us for desires, love, peace, security, meaning, hope, joy, rest, intimacy, purpose, like all the stuff that some of stuff you're unpacking. But he says, he went on to say, man, when Satan twists, distorts, changes those those God given gifts, those feelings, the whatever those indicators, sex can become pornography or adultery, work becomes greed or workaholism, rest becomes laziness, food becomes gluttony, wealth becomes hoarding, relationships become power plays and manipulation, wine becomes drunkenness. And I'm sure there's that list can go on and on to say this is what God intended.
Luke Bilberry:Right? But sin is now distorting this. Right? And I'm sure even as we say that, like, remember hearing that yesterday and going, yep. I I I recognize that in my life.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Like, recognize this and I the desire for rest can actually turn into laziness instead of trying to show up. Like, I'm tired, and I don't wanna do that thing, but I'm actually therefore, I'm either omitting or I am committing a sin by not showing up fully present to be the dad my kids need in that moment, but I'm tired. Rechange your priorities. Get the rest you need in a different like, there's different ways that you can begin to play out.
Luke Bilberry:Here's that root sin and how it then you can see how it works itself back out to the decisions, the daily decisions we make or don't make.
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah. Well, it's interesting to think about some of the cultural phrases even within the church based on what you just said. So like the phrase of, well, just believe that God would want me to be happy. Well, there's some pieces of truth to that. Yeah.
Dan Vandewarker:And that God created all of those things that you just mentioned for his purpose. Right? There's some but the corrupted desire, the sin, quickly turns those into something that separates us from God. Yeah. What we do with those things.
Dan Vandewarker:Right? Right. Becoming self serving. But that's where it can But partially why it can feel like, oh yeah, well, God does want you to be content. Right?
Dan Vandewarker:That God does want you to find joy in him in the midst of your circumstances. So right? So we can we can kinda lean into that. Well, God just wants me to be happy. Or that's just the way God made me.
Dan Vandewarker:Right?
Luke Bilberry:I'm a
Dan Vandewarker:I'm a type a person or I'm this on the Enneagram or I'm this on the Strength Finders. I'm this way, therefore you just have to excuse me rather than the biblical response to the There's nothing about our natural state that we should be content with on this side of eternity.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. That's a that's a really good statement, man, to to to be reminded of that. If that is our default that left to my own desire, I am out of balance. Right? The the what was the illustration?
Luke Bilberry:The plumb line. Right? The plumb line in Amos that that John used. If it left to my own devices, I'm out of alignment with who I'm actually made to be. And if we can begin to shift that, accept me for who I am versus I'm trying to find a way to die to sin, you were saying earlier, how do we kill sin or slay the sin in our life?
Luke Bilberry:That's where actually that's why it feels kind of hard and heavy because we're beginning to deal with deep heart issues. But actually, when we walk through that, we find freedom, we find hope, we find the life that we were meant to live, which again, that's kinda leaning into the next week topic where we talk about salvation and what is that and where does it come from. Yeah. But I'd love maybe for us to even kinda move can keep walking down that that line of thinking, Dan, of what does it actually mean for us to be authentic and vulnerable in this culture, but not excusing sin or making accommodations for sin? Like, what what is what would that look like and mean for us if we're identifying sin is this, it is missing the mark, period, end of story.
Luke Bilberry:It feels like the Bible speaks very clearly about that. We know it because we feel the brokenness in ourselves and the world. Maybe we don't fully, but we that we can always tell when something's off to a degree. But how do we continue to walk this path forward and and not giving in to these cultural lies, these half truths?
Dan Vandewarker:I mean, I think very simply, it starts with it starts with confession. And I know that's not like a fun word. That's not like a but it starts with starts with admitting your your mistakes. Yeah. And I think, right?
Dan Vandewarker:James five sixteen. Mhmm. Confession, confess your sins to one another so that you can be healed. And so I think, the journey starts there. Yeah.
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:I mean, that's that's what I just pulled that up as you're as you're saying is verse 13 and following. Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone among you cheerful? Let him sing praises.
Luke Bilberry:Is anyone among you sick? Let him call in the elders of the church and let them pray over him. No need with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer of the faith will save the one who is sick and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.
Luke Bilberry:Therefore, because of this hope, this restoration, this reconciling God that we know, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you might be healed. And I think it's just it's worth us calling that out because we, the end of the day, that's what we're about is people walking in freedom from their sin and that the what does Hebrews call the sin that so easily entangles, but to run the race marked out for us, you know, to run the path that God has created us for. It is one that is apart from sin because it was never meant to be a part of the original design for us. But Right. Can I be maybe throw in your thought there, Sarah, but also maybe paint that picture for us?
Luke Bilberry:What does confession look like? Because my suspicion is because sin feels so personal, it feels so vulnerable to a degree, it's hard for us to actually begin to live that out. Yeah. But for those of us who actually know the hope that comes from Jesus, actually confessing our sins, my my hope and prayer that would actually become more natural to be like, man, I messed up. I made a mistake because we already know we're forgiven of our sins in Jesus Christ.
Luke Bilberry:Right?
Dan Vandewarker:Right.
Luke Bilberry:But so kind of throw some thoughts in on there and kind of begin to move towards this application of how do we walk in the freedom of sin.
Sarah Force:Right. Yeah. Well, the Hebrews passage that you're talking about, I think the beauty of that passage that my brain immediately latched to, as you said, it was where it says to lay aside every weight. And as we are confessing our sins to one another, that's exactly what we're doing. You're laying aside the weight of it, the shame of it.
Sarah Force:I think there's a whole conversation around shame where I think it can be really easy to believe that we're supposed to feel super shameful and guilty over our sin. And I think there's a difference between glorifying shame versus having sorrowness over your sin that leads to a continual repentance and acknowledgment of the forgiveness you've been given that brings about joy and freedom. And the power in confessing to one another, especially confessing as you should be confessing to a brother or sister in Christ. Probably, you know, same gender. Just put that out there.
Sarah Force:But the response is always, if they're a true sister or brother in Christ, should be grace and love. Reminder of the gospel, what we've been called to. Accountability, if that's what it calls for. And that is the freedom that we have in Christ is that we repent knowing that we have been offered forgiveness. So, you know, moving past the initial repentance when you are responding to the call to salvation, moving to the continual repentance, continual confession of sin, you're acknowledging with joy that we have been given forgiveness.
Sarah Force:We've been gifted forgiveness because of what Jesus has done. And that's why in confessing to one another, we remind the person confessing of. You remind them of the forgiveness we've been given. And the call to continue to confess, it becomes easier and easier as you lean into that ask from Scripture to confess, because you know that what's waiting on the other side is grace, is love. And shame can only be glorified when we hold in the sins, when we choose not to confess.
Sarah Force:It is in confessing that we're actually glorifying the power of God, the power of his redemption, that we even in sharing our testimonies, like sharing the ugly parts, which everybody's got an ugly testimony. It doesn't matter when you were saved. Everybody's got an ugly testimony because we are all sinners in need of a savior. Yeah. And we have a beautiful testimony because we have a beautiful savior.
Sarah Force:And so the more that you share the things that maybe the world or Christian culture or the Christian bubble might say that we should be ashamed of, the more that we share those things, the more you're glorifying the power and love of God.
Dan Vandewarker:When I'm meeting with folks or even in our home, one the things that we've started doing for a little bit now that my kids are not gonna like whenever I come on here because I always tell stories about them.
Luke Bilberry:The fact that you've got awesome kids, though. Yeah, they're fun.
Dan Vandewarker:We'll actually walk them through the process. So someone hits someone, that hurt them. Okay, well you need to go say you're sorry.
Luke Bilberry:Yep.
Dan Vandewarker:Okay, sorry. Well, what are you sorry for? Sorry for hitting you. Okay, what do you have to say about that? Okay, no, it's not an okay.
Luke Bilberry:It's That
Dan Vandewarker:hurt my You heart or that, need to tell them whatever you need to tell them. And then have to get to a spot of forgiveness. Doesn't have to be right now. But you either need to tell them, Hey, I'm not ready to forgive you. We'll talk about this later.
Dan Vandewarker:Or I forgive you.
Sarah Force:Or a simple thank you.
Dan Vandewarker:So there's this whole interaction because it takes work to be on the other side to say, I forgive you. And then frankly, to be the one that's forgiven, sometimes there's pride in there, right? Because it's like, well you deserved it. I don't need you to forgive me. Earned that response.
Dan Vandewarker:Too again if I could, right? So there's this, but it has to be practiced. I love when the Bible talks about us practicing our faith. Because you have to practice it. But I think the framing of the question, the reality is that when one of my kids hits the other kid, the first and foremost person that they have offended is the Lord.
Dan Vandewarker:So we like to personalize sin as an offense against ourselves rather than remembering that your person that you're offending the most is the relationship that you have with the Lord.
Luke Bilberry:Right. Because it's ultimately, it's it's offending the imago Dei. Right? It's offending the the design God. And even this may be a little out of context, I hold this loosely, so please forgive me.
Luke Bilberry:But when Jesus says, whatever you've done unto the least of these, you've done unto me. Right? Like, there's a little bit of tension there to hold to say how we treat one another is is is a reflection of our relationship with the father. And if sin has broken that, obviously, these relationships are broken between one another.
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah. So, I think there's this, right, that's the challenge with forgiving. Because if you have done something to me and you come and ask me for forgiveness, honestly, my greatest concern in that moment should be your relationship with the Lord, Mhmm. Not not your offense against me. Mhmm.
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah. That's really hard.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Really hard.
Dan Vandewarker:Psalm he talks about it where it just says, against you and only you have I sinned. Mhmm. But I've done evil in your sight. And I think that, so you get into marriage counseling, well they lied to me. Right?
Dan Vandewarker:Okay, so there's a thing to work out with the spouses, the root is each spouse's identity that they have in the Lord. And for the spouse who was lied to, why is it such a great offense? Oftentimes, I've taken too much identity in my spouse that it's And then for the person that lied, same thing. So I think there's just this Totally. Interwoven, very complicated, but yet simple in that it starts with confession.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And reminds me even that you're kinda talking about like the your kids hitting in one of the things. And Sydney, who who's in the room texting me the scripture, she said, my son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord nor be weary when reproved by him. For the Lord disciplines the one he loves and he chastises every son whom he receives. And so there's this reality that sin has consequences, and I think maybe that's one of the things in our culture.
Luke Bilberry:We wanna go, oh, my bad, but then we don't wanna actually deal and work out our faith. You're talking about in fear and trembling and practicing our faith. Yeah. That that there are consequences for sin. There are eternal grave consequences, and there are relational, temporal consequences for our sin.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Like, for the wages of sin is death. Right? Romans six twenty three. Right?
Luke Bilberry:That that is a reality that apart from the saving work of Jesus Christ, we will die forever be separated from the God who made us for relationship with him. However, cue next week's episode, we get to talk about salvation. We've already talked a little bit about it. We know that truth. We celebrate that.
Luke Bilberry:That's why we're here talking about this stuff. But there's also natural consequences that sometimes you still have to live it out. Because there is sin in a marriage, it may take years for it to actually just be reconciled fully toward the relationship that it would have because there's consequences. You know, you may hit your sibling. Well, it it will likely leave a bruise, and that it may not be your relationship may not be as tight as it should be with a sibling.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Would that be healthy way to even kinda think about that that there are consequences for our sins and there's discipline because of those consequences? But may we hear, right, that it's actually the love of the father when there are consequences for our sin. If there was no consequence, there is no love. Would that be maybe a way to say it?
Luke Bilberry:Yeah.
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah. I think about I think about in high school. Right? You show up for I mean, hypothetically, of course, show up for
Luke Bilberry:a test.
Dan Vandewarker:Yay, you haven't studied for. Lord, we're We're I've never done that. There's like this immediate, God forgive me, if you just let me pass this one test, then I'll study so hard that I surrender my life to you forever.
Sarah Force:Can And seriously bring everything into my brain.
Dan Vandewarker:There's this reality that we don't want the consequences. I said, Sorry, why can't I keep doing the thing that I was doing? And we think it's not fair that we have to have the consequences. Or we want to decide how someone responds who we've offended. We want to control that.
Dan Vandewarker:That Anyway, yeah, think that that's the state of the world we live in. Sin impacts everything. I think there was the every problem in the world traces back to sin, is something that John said this weekend.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And so maybe kind of as ways to kind of start landing the plane in this conversation is thinking through we kind of dealt with some real practical issues, but how do we how can we help have a framework to understand what sin is and therefore how we navigate this life knowing that sin is around us. One of the things that John had kind of said is maybe a framework that's helpful that belief, what we believe determines what we think our perspective, determines what we desire and then determines the choices kind of the some of the things that you that you were highlighting there. And so how can give give us a framework for understanding, like, if you were to sit across the table from another person, like we are doing here in podcast in this digital format, what would you say is a framework to see and understand sin and live and therefore live in light of? Help us frame that so we can serve our people well.
Luke Bilberry:I
Dan Vandewarker:think where I would go is I would invite people to own their daily interaction and there is a justification of sin in their life. So if you have kind of owned phrases, like some of these that have allowed you to justify sin, Things like love the sinner but hate the sin. That's an incomplete sentiment to how we're supposed to respond. You don't have to like someone, but you have to love them. This idea of just saying, well, nobody's perfect.
Dan Vandewarker:The comparison game. The things that we just talked about, that this is just how God made me. Or this idea, well, it's not hurting anyone if I do this.
Luke Bilberry:Oh, man, that's actually mean, there's so many layers of like, just even conversation on that one alone of like, just because no one else knows it goes back to what, at the end of the day, my sin was against God and who I am actually created to be as a human being. Right? That's a powerful one that it's not hurting anybody. Who cares?
Dan Vandewarker:But as a starting point, I would say if identify with any of those phrases, even if you're listening to this and you think, well, there's nothing wrong with that. Right? I would just say, take a hard, pump the brakes, pay attention. Those not biblical truths that we're called to cling onto as we're navigating this world of sin. So, I would start there, personally.
Sarah Force:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes me think, too, of the amount of times that we hear that sometimes can be more than we even hear scripture and like what biblical truth actually is. So, I think of John seventeen seventeen, where it says, Sanctify them by the truth. Your word is truth.
Sarah Force:Like, need to be filled with the word
Dan Vandewarker:of God
Sarah Force:to know what truth is so we can recognize the voice of the shepherd. So, when we hear things like, well, God wants me to be happy. Okay, let's actually put that through the lens of scripture and decide, okay, is this biblical? Is it not? How do I live in light of what's actually true?
Sarah Force:And so if we're living our lives out of this like, well, you know, I'm good enough. I'm just living authentically. This is who I am. This is how God made me. Yeah, these are my flaws, but at least I own them.
Sarah Force:Like, that's not how we're to live our lives by. We're to live our lives by the truth of God's word and striving for Christ and Christ likeness, not living by the truth of what the quote unquote truth of what the world has to offer us, but the truth of the word and letting that shape us. And so owning the sin, sometimes it's in that was directed to us that we experience from other people. We're experiencing maybe just the brokenness of the world that has caused hurt and maybe just lasting wounds that now we're acting out of. Yes, maybe you've been hurt by other people.
Sarah Force:It's still our individual responsibility to grow and to heal and to live into what Christ has called us to. It's it can offer an explanation. It does not offer you an excuse. So living into the truth of what God's word, acknowledging the sin that we have either experienced or that we have practiced and choosing to move from it, choosing to repent according to what Scripture calls us to is the call. That that is the daily fight is to live according to the word of God so that all striving ceases at the foot of the cross.
Sarah Force:Yeah. That Jesus is the one that we that we abide in, that we look to for truth. He is the way, the truth and the life. And so in looking to him, we find holiness on the other side of the cross.
Luke Bilberry:Right. And I think given a couple like as I'm thinking kind of about a framework for for my life on a personal level, there are a few kind of key scriptures that shape shape my life or is John ten ten, that the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. But but Jesus says, I've come that you may have life to the fullest. So that would mean the happiest life. But that happy does not mean the world's definition of happiness or Luke Billberry's definition of happiness.
Luke Bilberry:You know, like, that that does not mean, you know, like, my yard never grows, but always looks like it's perfectly mowed or whatever. Like, what it it's like like this like, no. That life happens and things go, but the enemy wants to steal, kill, and destroy. And so if I know that, then that means my life, there is some level of battle. And I use that link because I know it can conjure up so many different things in different people's minds, but there is a struggle.
Luke Bilberry:There is a battle for the hearts and souls of man because it is ultimately a battle against the one true God. And so that we're at this intersection where the enemy wants to distort and he wants to lie. And a lot of our, I guess, battle language is understood kind of in CS Lewis' like in in in the Screwtape letters, like, we kinda see that, like Yeah. There's so The angst. The angst that's in there.
Luke Bilberry:So that's like an extra biblical resource to kind of stir imagination. But getting back to the scriptures, I know the enemy wants to isolate me. Right? And he is like a lion that is roaring. He is prowling around as the scripture calls that maybe Ramsey, can you find that scripture so I can call that one out?
Luke Bilberry:But if if this is who the the the enemy is, he's like a lion that's, like, seeking to take the sheep, the the followers of Jesus Christ. That's a framework I'm thinking through through scripture. Then how that happens in is in isolation. Right? And we talked about confessing sins to one another because it's actually a communal peace.
Luke Bilberry:What was the scripture? First Peter five eight. So that's the one that says, when the enemy, he he's like a lion. He's prowling around seeking to devour. He wants to destroy our lives.
Luke Bilberry:Sin is the is the destruction of life. Right? And so if I know who God is and what he wants for me, life to the fullest, that is a life that is with him, then that means sin, anything in it that is sinful in my life and around me, it's not a part of God's long term desire. But I do know a God scripture telling us is a God who's making all things new. Therefore, I can have hope in the midst of it.
Luke Bilberry:Sin is not something that is to ever isolate, devastate, shame, guilty, talked a lot about earlier, Sarah. Is it so that's a framework. Sin is not meant to be something that pulls us away from community, but should actually propel us into community Yes. To go, dude, I need you guys. Like, I need some people in my life.
Luke Bilberry:I mean, I think that's one of the things that I appreciate about Dan. Your friendship is you're a dude that's always pursuing after after me as a friend to say, how you doing? What are you praying about? Like, that was this week's conversation. Like, what are you praying about the most?
Luke Bilberry:Because I know at the root of that is is you're you're running away from the sin in your life, but you're also you care enough about me to make sure I'm not walking in sin myself. Right? And so that's what we get to live out in a real framework. But it also kind of reminds me of of this passage in Romans 16 and verse 23. So it's the conversation is not causing others to stumble, to fall into sin.
Luke Bilberry:Right? So he's talking about live a life, life to the fullest, the one that doesn't cause other people to be sinful. But it ends what I think with a really powerful frame working phrase for us. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin. So faith is this gift of God to believe and to know and to trust.
Luke Bilberry:Right? Faith is is believing in the things unseen. Right? The things that are to come that Jesus is who he says he is, though we may not have seen him, we can still know him. Right?
Luke Bilberry:So for us, that framework mentality is, are you living your life in faith? Are you living every decision? There's nothing that is not spiritual, maybe is a way to think about it. The way you parent, the way you work in your business, the way that you live out your identity, your creativity, all these things that these small kind of statements, you know, that you kinda called out, Dan, you know, like, some of those phrases of everyone's kinda like, those things all come to this place of is this faith? Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:Faith in Jesus Christ. Because anything apart from that is sin. And those sin that sin, whatever it is, has consequences that are grave, that are eternal in scope, that are deeply relational with God the father, with one another, and ultimately with ourselves as people. And so we have to deal with sin. We don't just get to gloss it over as, oh, man.
Luke Bilberry:Like, what's another bad, like, phrase, like, will be boys?
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:Like like, God have mercy. Like, what what why would we ever wanna sweep that underneath the rug of something and not address it? We have to address sin as a framework because if it's not done in faith, it's not glorifying God, and then we're not living, into the fullness that God has created for us. I know that was kinda like a long ramble to get there, but that's how Luke Bilberry is framing, what sin is, and therefore, how do I live out of that.
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah. The when you said that phrase, the other one is, like a a parental phrase of, well, my parents did it this way, and I turned out okay. That's what I like. That's but my I think there's it can feel like an awesome privilege or an enormous weight to to own up to the fact that every word you say, every action you do has has the opportunity. You're either making a positive impact for the kingdom or you're making a negative.
Dan Vandewarker:There's there's no such thing as a middle ground to your actions and your words and your time. Everything that you do communicates your value. The way you spend your time communicates what you value. The phrasing of I don't have time for something is not a time management thing. That is a value phrase.
Dan Vandewarker:That's saying I don't value this as much as the other things that I'm doing. And I think that that is you view that as an enormous privilege as a Christ follower or you can feel like it's a weight on you. And as Christians, we've been called to live in freedom. Yeah. That we are called to the ministry of reconciliation to to we are God's plan through the power of the Holy Spirit to bring, healing to this broken world on this side of eternity.
Dan Vandewarker:Yeah.
Luke Bilberry:Yeah. And and maybe just kind of as a way to to kind of wrap up this moment is to be reminded that our theology builds on itself. Right? So our understanding of the scriptures of the Bible, that foundational piece is so important because God is revealing himself. Now we can begin to get a glimpse into who he is and his great love for us, like this overwhelming, undeserved, unconditional love.
Luke Bilberry:But yet now we know we were created our our, you know, our understanding of humanity, and this is who we were made to be. But now this study and understanding of what sin is, how much it's ruined life. And so these things build on and even what you're talking about, I want to end with with kind of this idea is, and we talked about how do you kill sin? How do you how do you walk into that freedom to be a part of God's plan of reconciliation on this side of eternity? What we know because the theology builds on itself, God is still at work doing that work in and through us.
Luke Bilberry:Right? That is why the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that's why Jesus says it's better that I leave so the Holy Spirit can indwell you so that you will do greater things than these as he tells the disciples. And that's this joy when we think about our core theology, how it builds, and it is all linked up and connected because sin is heavy. Sin is heavy. But God's grace and love and the freedom that he brings is greater than that.
Luke Bilberry:And there's nothing that can separate us from the love of God, the book of Romans tells us. And so may you deal with sin appropriately. May you address it. May you confess it. But also may you walk in the freedom that is yours in Jesus Christ.
Luke Bilberry:And that's what we get to talk a lot about next week. So we'll see you guys then.