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In this podcast hosted by the trailblazing founder of RE/MAX, Dave Liniger, we discover the secrets of those who have overcome challenges, pushed past their own limits, and experienced the best life has to offer.
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Unknown
You.
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Unknown
You.
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Speaker 2
Dave Lineker, and I'm thrilled to be joined today by Michael Bungay Senior, a renowned leadership coach and author whose work has inspired thousands to become forces for positive change. Michael has sold over a million and a half copies of The Coaching Habit, topping the Wall Street Journal bestseller list.
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Speaker 2
Ms. is the founder of Box of Crayons, a learning and development company that helps organizations move from advice driven action to curiosity led transformation. They have trained more than a half million people for clients including Microsoft, Salesforce and Gucci. I'm excited to dive into Michael's insights on how grit, resilience, and curiosity driven coaching can unlock our full potential.
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Speaker 2
Let's get started.
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Speaker 1
Michael, from a coaching perspective, how do you find grit in the context of leadership and why is it a crucial quality for individuals aiming to make a significant impact?
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Speaker 2
Well, well, let me ask you that, Dave, is the cunning coaching trick of course, which is when you get asked a good question, you ask it back. Tell me how you talk about grit, and then I'll put it in the context of why it's such a powerful engine to being, well, coach likens staying curious longer. What's what's the essence for you around grit?
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Speaker 1
I think the essence basically is, determination. Persistence, of a user of the fail.
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Speaker 2
Well, here's how I think this connects to coaching. It's a bit of a twist. The way I define coaching is. Can you stay curious a little bit longer? Can you rush to action and advice, giving a little bit more slowly? Because most people in most circumstances are advice giving maniacs. I mean, they they love it. Whether it's somebody on your team, whether it's your boss, whether it's somebody you're trying to sell something to.
00:02:04:10 - 00:02:26:14
Speaker 2
We so easily and quickly default into, oh, I've got an idea or an opinion or a suggestion, I want to help you. And there is always a place for advice, and there's definitely a place for helping people out. But I think one of the ways of showing grit in the in the context of coaching is managing your advice.
00:02:26:14 - 00:02:54:10
Speaker 2
Monster that that hunger to, you know, add value to the in the interaction you're about to have and stay curious longer. And that's not an easy thing to do. It takes a degree of self-awareness. It takes a degree of self-discipline. It takes an insight that often the most useful thing you can be doing is helping people figure out their own challenges, rather than being the person who jumps in with the advice and the solutions and the ideas.
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Speaker 2
The whole time.
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Speaker 1
Isn't that sort of like a a consultant coming in and asking questions.
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Speaker 2
Like, yeah, a consultant or even a good salesperson, you know, I reckon one of the, the kind of mistake 101 in sales is just moving too quickly to actually trying to sell the thing that you have, rather than trying to figure out what's the problem that they have and how you can be most useful to that. I mean, they've just there's plenty of consultants I know who are all about the advice, and they're not that good at the curiosity.
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Speaker 2
so I think, you know, whether you're parenting or whether you're managing or whether you're selling, this act of staying curious longer is a really powerful act.
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Speaker 1
Yes. Curiosity is the key, I think.
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Speaker 2
I think that's right.
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Speaker 1
In your coaching practice, how do you help individuals identify and pursue ambitious goals, and how can coaching contribute to the development of grit?
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Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I think, your starting point is, you know, what are you up for? What's the adventure you're having? I read a book called How to Begin start, and the subtitle is Start Doing Something that matters. And so if you want ambition, you kind of have to help people find that, because otherwise it gets all a bit jazz handy.
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Speaker 2
You know, everybody's kind of like, oh, I'm ambitious, but what are you ambitious for? And in How to Begin, I talk about three core attributes of what a worthy goal, a goal worthy of your time and your effort and your focusing, your courage and your resources. And it needs to be thrilling. It needs to be important. It needs to be daunting.
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Speaker 2
So thrilling is does it light you up? Do you care about it? Does it really matter to you? Because, for lots of people, we often inherit, you know, somebody else's ambition. You know, you should be this. You should climb this ladder. And often on, on reflection, it's like, man, that's not the that's not the mountain. I want to climb the ladder.
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Speaker 2
I want to climb. It needs to be important. And I think this is about how does it give more to the world than it takes, and it needs to be daunting. How do you figure out what will take you to the edge of your own confidence, and your confidence and your sense of self? So I think that's a starting point.
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Speaker 2
David is like, well, what what is ambition? And then if you're bringing coaching to it, there's lots of questions too. Good questions to ask. You know, like one of the classics is so what's what's the real challenge here for you? What's at the heart of it? But I think the biggest, hardest, most important question to answer when you're trying to be ambitious is if you're saying yes to this, what must you say no to?
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Speaker 2
Because it's easy just to keep adding yeses in our lives. But most of us are full up with all the stuff we're already committed to. Ambition is in some way saying no to the status quo. And until you get clear on what you're saying no to and therefore who you are, saying no to, your yes really doesn't have the heft that it should.
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Speaker 1
I agree with that totally. Hey, change often requires grit. How do you insist individuals and organizations in overcoming resistance to change, fostering, resilience and embracing ambitious transformations?
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Speaker 2
Yeah, well, I've got a I've got a 19 hour answer to that. really? That's a very big question. I think. The key insight for me would be a twofold. One is if you're thinking about organizational change, you're really playing at two levels. You need to be thinking about individual change. And what does that take? and one of those questions is actually what are you saying yes to a no to as an individual, what behavior are you striving for?
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Speaker 2
What habits are you looking to inculcate? But, you don't change an organization if all you do is try and shift people's individual behavior, like training is not enough, you also need to shift some of the organizational structures. everything from how your your organized to what the titles are to even sometimes the physical experience can can shift a culture.
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Speaker 2
And you're in this dance between that the, the two things that I think most clearly connect to grit. You know, knowing that that's at the heart, the beating heart of this podcast and this conversation one is a recognition that change takes time and more time than you think it will. I don't think in the history of ever there's anybody be going with that change project happen much faster and more easily than I thought it would.
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Speaker 2
And then I think the other thing is, it kind of is becoming a recurring theme in this conversation for us, Dave, is what are we what are we going to stop doing? What are we going to say no to? What are we going to remove? Rather than add? One of the, I think, slightly under-recognized writers in this space is a guy called Lady Clots clot z z, and his book is called subtract.
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Speaker 2
And the key insight is humans are wired to typically add. And actually, one of the most powerful things that we can do to make change happen is remove.
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Speaker 1
Yes, I have a friend in a brainstorming group. He talks about pruning, right? He he spends his entire life pruning and getting rid of the old. So there's room for a new.
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Speaker 2
See, I think that is such a powerful insight. And particularly if you're a in a senior position, in your organization, whether it's a big organization or a small organization, so often the temptation is, is planting the seeds, you know, and I'm like, I'm a shiny object guy. I love the start of something new. But strategy at its heart is, what are we going to say no to so that our yes really matters?
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Speaker 2
That that is the essence of strategy, is having the courage to say no to the stuff you want to say yes to.
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Speaker 1
So grids often associated with daily habits and routines. What daily practices do you recommend for individuals looking to develop and maintain grit in their personal and professional life?
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Speaker 2
Well, you know, the the first practice that people should, consider in terms of increasing their sense of grit is any practice that works for them. You know, it's like, whatever. If if you get something and you're like, but this is something I can do that is far better than somebody else's, I did something that you will never do.
00:09:32:17 - 00:09:56:00
Speaker 2
So, I will tell you routines that work for me and have been helpful. One is, like light weight journaling. I never thought I'd be a journal. you know, I'm like, I'm not that type of person. But at the start of each day, I ask myself three questions and they're helpful for me. The first question is, what do I notice?
00:09:56:02 - 00:10:14:02
Speaker 2
And I ask that question because it tries to make me present what's in my head, what's in my body, what's keeping me awake at night, what am I anxious about? What am I excited about? What do I see out the window? It's kind of like, bring it. Bring your attention to the here and now. What are you noticing in this moment, Michael?
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Speaker 2
The second question I answer is what do I want? And then it is a hard question. But Dan Sullivan told me that if you keep asking yourself, what do I want every single day, what you want starts becoming obvious to you. And when you get clear on what you want, that's one of the things that will pull you forward through the hard times.
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Speaker 2
That's a great source of grit. and overcoming kind of the challenges because you're like, I keep getting really clear on what I want. And then the third question I asked myself at the start of a day is, what's the one thing today that would move things forward? Because, you know, maybe like him, other people listening in, I have a to do list that's just full of stuff.
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Speaker 2
It was like a and I could easily spend my day taking off, you know, 120 different things, only to miss doing the one thing today that would make the most difference. So I find that, really helpful. So that for me, is helpful. And then, you know, other things like people will know, which is, like, simple but difficult.
00:11:17:22 - 00:11:41:03
Speaker 2
Sleep enough, exercise enough, eat more healthily, surround yourself with people who love you and who admire you and who respect you. Surround yourself with people who tell you the hard truth and kind of wait, what's going wrong or what's not working for you? all of those are easy to say, not necessarily easy to pull off. But for me, the journaling thing is really helpful as well as a daily practice.
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Speaker 1
That's really amazing. can you share a specific coaching experience where an individual face to sit back, and how did you guide them, to overcome that setback, making it a catalyst for growth and increase determination?
00:12:00:04 - 00:12:20:07
Speaker 2
Well, a coaching experience that people can actually listen to is when I coached Brené Brown on her podcast, it was very easy. I mean, I was very excited to be, invited to be on Brennan's podcast because, you know, she's a superstar. And, I was in Australia at the time. She was in Texas. So is at 4:00 in the morning.
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Speaker 2
So it was, I was like, oh, I have to be awake. I have to try and be present and be useful, for this. And, about 45 minutes into the conversation, so she said, well, look, why don't you why don't you coach me? And honestly, that was a bit intimidating because she hadn't warned me that that was going to happen.
00:12:38:03 - 00:13:03:21
Speaker 2
And we got into a conversation. And the key thing, if people choose to listen to this and they can just, you know, Google this podcast and find it, is that is the amount of silence that was in their coaching conversation, because I would ask a question and they're typically, what are the questions drawn from the coaching habit book, which is, you know, it's like the bestselling book on coaching the century.
00:13:03:21 - 00:13:30:08
Speaker 2
So it's got seven good questions that are that are powerful and helpful. And I just I remember asking the question, so, Brené, what's the what's the real challenge here for you? She was talking about just feeling a bit overwhelmed. I know these I don't know, I felt like somewhere between 10 and 50 minutes of silence while I was waiting, but it was less than that, like maybe 5 or 6 or seven seconds really felt like a long time.
00:13:30:09 - 00:13:58:03
Speaker 2
But it was her really listening to herself, sitting with the question, sinking into what was going on. And, where she got to was just I kind of, a recognition of, I think I don't mean to speak for her, but just kind of how tired she was in that moment. You know, the the, the there's a thousand, thousand, thousand stories of helping people level up, take the next step.
00:13:58:03 - 00:14:19:13
Speaker 2
Be brave, be courageous. You can ask any coach and they've they've got a story to tell you. What I always think is interesting is how do you hold this space for that person? What's the question you asked? How did you push them? How did you resist trying to jump in and give them advice, but allowed them the grace to figure some of this stuff out themselves?
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Speaker 2
That's where the power of coaching happens.
00:14:23:06 - 00:14:35:07
Speaker 1
Well, how does grit contribute to effective leadership, and are there specific qualities or behaviors that you've observed in gritty leaders during your coaching experience?
00:14:35:09 - 00:15:05:06
Speaker 2
Well. But it was a Woody Allen who said 80% of success is just showing up. And I do think that part of what grit gives you is a willingness to kind of get up again and keep going again. One of the one of the things that I've become known for, I guess, and it's on the end of my emails, and I often will say it in a podcast or in a, in a class.
00:15:05:06 - 00:15:30:17
Speaker 2
Or if I'm teaching, it is you're awesome and you're doing great. And it's it's the automatic signature in my email. But every week I get at least 2 or 3 people writing back to me, going, oh, thanks for the encouragement. That was that was helpful. And I think you're awesome and you're doing great. Speaks to grit because it says, look, I see you for who you are, and I see the best of you and I think you're awesome.
00:15:30:19 - 00:15:50:20
Speaker 2
And whether things are going well for you at the moment or whether they're going poorly for you at the moment, you're doing great. Because my guess is you're probably doing about the best you can in this moment with what you have to hand and that kind of, I have faith in you. That's what you're awesome in. You're doing great says.
00:15:50:20 - 00:16:11:18
Speaker 2
Which is like, hey, I have faith in you. I see the best in you. I see you're doing as well as you can and keep going because you know, if it's hard or if it's easy, this too will pass. You'll get to the next phase of this. You're awesome and you're doing great. That can be a really resonant message to help people stay gritty.
00:16:11:20 - 00:16:28:11
Speaker 1
That's good advice. teams often pursue ambitious collective goals. Yep. How can a coach help teams build the collective grit required to achieve those goals, and what challenges might arise in the process?
00:16:28:13 - 00:17:07:13
Speaker 2
Well, it's a it's a big question. if I was coaching a team on, how well, how will you achieve this goal? I'd be thinking of two things. I'd be thinking. First of all, are you working on the right goal? So that's where the question. So what's the real challenge here for? You can come in as a coach, which is, you know, if as a, you know, as a coach or just as a leader, if you see your job as helping people work on the right stuff, help people understand the real challenge, not the first challenge, that is a huge contribution to success, because in most teams and most organizations, people are
00:17:07:13 - 00:17:38:05
Speaker 2
working very hard and they're bringing their very best to work on stuff that actually isn't the most important thing. It's just the first thing or the loudest thing or the noisiest thing, or the the thing that showed up as the first item on the agenda. And we all got sucked into trying to fix it and solve it. So saying yes to that and then because every team is different, I'd be going, what do you already know as a team about how to work at your best?
00:17:38:07 - 00:18:04:01
Speaker 2
Like what? What do you already know about your collective strengths, your collective flaws, your collective grittiness? You know, what can we already learn and then how do we amplify what you've what's already true about you as a team? The thing is with, you know, the concept of homeostasis is that a system resists change. You push into the change and it pushes back.
00:18:04:03 - 00:18:28:04
Speaker 2
So if I show up and I go, hey, team, you know, know me, but I'm a coach, I'm an author, I'm on devilishly good looking young man. I'm going to give you some of my suggestions on how to be better as a team. The team will just resist that. It's just inherent in the system. But if you go what's already true about how great you are and how do we do more of that, they'll figure out how to amplify the greatness that's already there.
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Speaker 1
You know, that's kind of a concept that special forces in the military use.
00:18:35:17 - 00:18:36:06
Speaker 2
That's right.
00:18:36:12 - 00:19:06:22
Speaker 1
Instead of the authority or command down to the soldier, most special forces teams are very open. nobody cares about rank. And it's what's everybody's contribution. How do we do this? And even more important, after the mission is over, they always debrief. That's right. You know, again, in the debriefing, it's all gone, man. It's just, hey, you tell the lieutenant, Lieutenant, you turn right instead of left, and you cross my barrel.
00:19:06:22 - 00:19:14:01
Speaker 1
I could have hurt you. And he has to, you know, can't fight that. He has to say, you're absolutely right. I made a mistake.
00:19:14:01 - 00:19:14:23
Speaker 2
It was. Yeah.
00:19:15:01 - 00:19:17:04
Speaker 1
thanks for telling me so.
00:19:17:05 - 00:19:41:16
Speaker 2
Well, one of the things you're pointing to there also is just, you know, when you're in that type of conversation and an after action review or any time, knowing the the difference between data and judgment is really helpful. So when you go, hey, Lieutenant, Lieutenant, as I might say, you crossed my barrel. That's data. That's just a fact that happened.
00:19:41:18 - 00:20:05:13
Speaker 2
Judgment is I might I might have hurt you, which is like my interpretation of what's at risk or what how that might play out. And being clear about the usefulness of understanding and naming the data and then understanding what's judgment. And there's not that truth, but just your interpretation of the facts. That's a really helpful way of keeping the temperature calm in these types of conversations.
00:20:05:15 - 00:20:23:21
Speaker 1
Makes sense to me. self-reflection is integral to personal and professional development. How do you guide individuals to reflect on their goals, setbacks, progress, and how does this practice enhance their grit?
00:20:23:23 - 00:20:59:05
Speaker 2
Well, I think, probably those questions that I shared earlier and the journaling questions are useful ones for self-reflection. but let me add a couple more. The first is, this is one this is the final question in the coaching habit book, and it's called the learning question. And the suggestion is that at the end of any interaction, this is a pretty helpful question to ask because it creates a moment of self-reflection and self-reflection, awareness and awareness, learning and learning and body behavior change.
00:20:59:07 - 00:21:25:05
Speaker 2
And the question is, what was most useful or most valuable here for you? What was most useful or most valuable here for you? and three things happen when you ask that question. First of all, it forces them to articulate what's just landed for them. And by naming it and saying it again, they kind of wire the learning into their brain so they're more likely to remember it.
00:21:25:07 - 00:21:48:08
Speaker 2
The second thing that happens when you ask what was most useful or most valuable here for you is you get feedback. You actually hear what was useful or valuable. So that changes your behavior, influences how you might interact with that person. And thirdly, well, cunningly, when you go what was most useful, you're not saying, was there anything useful you going of all the things, tell me, what was most useful here.
00:21:48:08 - 00:22:13:09
Speaker 2
You're consistently framing this interaction as a useful, valuable interaction, which makes that relationship more valuable, more useful, and just more appreciated by both sides of that. So that's one question. And then I've got a second question, and this is a question I often reflect on. At the end of a day, I will ask myself what made today a good day?
00:22:13:11 - 00:22:40:19
Speaker 2
like that because it's not what did I get done today? Which kind of puts productivity at the forefront of everything? I'm like, of all the things that happened today, what made today a good day? And that is, a version of the gratitude question. And you know that question, what am I grateful for? Is the more generic version that's just, it's just a proven question that if you ask that on a regular basis, you become a happier person.
00:22:40:21 - 00:22:58:02
Speaker 1
Awesome. Great. Can sometimes lead to burnout if not managed properly. How do you advise individuals to balance their ambitious pursuits with self-care? To prevent burnout and maintain long term resilience?
00:22:58:04 - 00:23:15:23
Speaker 2
I'm not sure I have a good answer to that other than go, hey, you know, grit sometimes creates burnout. How do you not going to get burnt out around that? the essence for me is always be aware of the challenge, but then offer it back to them to figure this out for themselves. Because I don't know.
00:23:15:23 - 00:23:35:06
Speaker 2
I don't know what self-care looks like for them. I don't know whether it they need another hour of sleep. I don't know whether it's about a friendship group that they could spend more time with. I don't know if it's about addressing the fact that they're always on for work, and they need to calm down. I don't know if it's like you've just got too many commitments.
00:23:35:08 - 00:23:56:23
Speaker 2
You know, strategy is about saying no, you need to say no because you're trying to do too many things. Any number of of challenges could be there. So I would start off by going, I don't know, how do you look after yourselves? What does self-care look like for you? How will you make how will you play this, make this the long game rather than the short game?
00:23:57:01 - 00:24:04:05
Speaker 2
What do you need to shift so that you are better resource just to deliver on the work that matters most to you?
00:24:04:07 - 00:24:18:17
Speaker 1
Okay, for those aspiring to become coaches, what advice do you have for developing the skills necessary to support individuals in cultivating grit and achieving their ambitious goals?
00:24:18:19 - 00:24:49:12
Speaker 2
Well, I think you can decide whether you want to be a professional coach or whether you want to be more coach, like, they're both really good choices. You know, there's, a lot of people who've gone in my career path. The next step for me is to be a coach, because I want to help people. I want to support people, and then where I would suggest you go is you just start immediately coaching people just say to people like, I haven't been trained yet.
00:24:49:15 - 00:25:11:01
Speaker 2
I've read Michael's books, perhaps. but if you want to test it out to see whether, this is actually a profession, you do want to be, to go in, because I, I, you know, I don't even coach people anymore because when I started my coaching practice, I built it up. It just felt like this was definitely the thing I was called to do.
00:25:11:03 - 00:25:47:19
Speaker 2
And then like, nine months into it, I'm like, I don't love coaching people. I don't love having a coaching practice. This isn't actually utilizing the best of who I am. so I shut it down and I got into writing books and training and teaching and keynote speaking and the other things that I do. if you want to be more coach, like, possibly one place to start is a Ted talk I gave called How to Tame Your Advice, monster, which is just a starting point of awareness to go, man, we are so wired to give advice, to advise you in conversations, noticing how quickly you default to advice.
00:25:47:19 - 00:25:58:07
Speaker 2
Giving is a really powerful place for you to start going. Right now, I see that I see what I need to say no to and therefore how I need to stay curious a little bit longer.
00:25:58:09 - 00:26:07:13
Speaker 1
I think a lot of leaders really need that, figuring out how to be more coachable. I think that profession.
00:26:07:15 - 00:26:13:08
Speaker 2
Well, I have a, I have a business model that is based on that insight. So I hope you're right. That's what I'm working on.
00:26:13:08 - 00:26:29:07
Speaker 1
Two awesome. final question. Can you share a particularly impactful coaching success story where an individual grit and ambition led to transformative personal or professional growth?
00:26:29:09 - 00:26:51:13
Speaker 2
the story I one of the stories I'm most proud of is, the woman who is the CEO of a company I founded called Box of Crayons. her name is, Doctor Shannon Menefee. And, I recruited her from behind the bar of my favorite pizzeria 7 or 8 years ago. And, I just got lucky.
00:26:51:16 - 00:27:18:05
Speaker 2
She's just one of these people who is brilliant and smart and has that CEO mindset of seeing big picture and seeing patterns and being courageous enough to kind of go and figure out the stuff that's not working. And, and we had to go through a process where I coached her effectively to become the CEO, and I needed to figure out how to for me to stop being the CEO and to stop being the founder.
00:27:18:07 - 00:27:38:21
Speaker 2
And honestly, founders like me a nightmare because we were like, I want to give everything up except for all the things I want to meddle in. And so we had to build a coaching experience for both of us, where I learned how to step away. She learned how to hold boundaries. I learned what it meant to step into the ambiguity of whatever was next for me.
00:27:38:22 - 00:28:05:03
Speaker 2
She learned how to step into the ambiguity of being CEO, and she never be in a CEO before. And so imposter syndrome and all of that. But I think that experience and I was both the coach and also a coach as part of that process, that is a transformative process because eight years ago, Shannon was serving me a very nice glass of red wine, and now she's running a multi-million dollar company.
00:28:05:05 - 00:28:08:16
Speaker 1
That's amazing. That's amazing.
00:28:08:18 - 00:28:18:16
Speaker 2
Thank you. I'm very proud of her and proud of us for having figured that out and and proud of me for not having screwed it up. Because normally the founders, the one that screws it up.
00:28:18:18 - 00:28:55:01
Speaker 1
Yeah, I had a, acquaintance who was a Swat commander, for, county sheriff's department, and, I often did ride alongs. I was also a reserve deputy, and I watched him, obviously 20 some years younger than me. And, I just I saw a sparkle there. And interestingly enough, I went to the sheriff and I said, look, you've got a man working for you that's good enough to run my company, Remax.
00:28:55:03 - 00:29:17:22
Speaker 1
At some point I want to offer him a job, but not unless you give me your permission. I won't take one of your superstars. Right? He smiled and he said, Dave, he says, if if one of my men had an opportunity like that every one of us would say, go for it. That's good enough. Came in at the bottom of the company, worked his way up to every rank there was.
00:29:18:00 - 00:29:46:13
Speaker 1
He was in franchise sales. He was in console thing. He was in, regional offices. ended up CEO. And the day came for him to be CEO. And so it was interesting, when I look back on that relationship, I was theoretically the mentor to begin with. But over this last 20 years, I've learned a lot more from him than I think he ever learned.
00:29:46:13 - 00:29:47:09
Speaker 1
For me.
00:29:47:11 - 00:30:06:08
Speaker 2
That's fantastic. What a great story. Yeah. What I and, you know, I think it's truthfully one of the I, somebody told me this many years ago and it was such a useful, a useful thing to hear, which is if you're an entrepreneur, you should just always be looking out for talent because brilliant people are hard to come by.
00:30:06:08 - 00:30:15:23
Speaker 2
And if you can find them and you can give them a shot, you've got a chance. I mean, it doesn't always work, but you get a chance that you change your life and you change their lives.
00:30:16:01 - 00:30:19:04
Speaker 1
Well, I'll tell you what. This has been one of my best podcasts.
00:30:19:06 - 00:30:20:03
Speaker 2
Oh. Thank you.
00:30:20:06 - 00:30:22:22
Speaker 1
Absolutely delighted. So that's really.
00:30:22:22 - 00:30:24:11
Speaker 2
Kind of you. I loved it, too.
00:30:24:12 - 00:30:25:20
Speaker 1
Thanks for being with us.