Healing Cultural Shame and Reconnecting with our Sons with Dr. Adam McCormick

In this episode of Raising Men, Shaun Dawson sits down with Dr. Adam McCormick, professor of social work at St. Edward's University and author of The Cost of Becoming a Boy. Together, they explore how modern boyhood often operates as a form of cultural trauma, pressuring young boys to abandon emotional vulnerability, tenderness, and help-seeking simply to maintain belonging. Drawing from twenty-five years of experience working with youth in foster care, schools, and juvenile detention settings, Dr. McCormick breaks down how cultural shaming drives boys toward isolation, irritability, and toxic online echo chambers. The discussion provides practical, actionable strategies for parents—particularly mothers, who represent a significant portion of caregivers guiding boys—on fostering deeper connection through shoulder-to-shoulder conversations, practicing emotional presence, and prioritizing relational accountability over punitive consequences. Reconnecting young men with their authentic selves begins with understanding the wounds behind their behavior.

Key Takeaways

1. Boyhood as Cultural Trauma: Culturally feminized traits like emotional expression, vulnerability, and asking for help are essential for mental health, yet boys are systematically policed into abandoning them to achieve belonging.
2. Shame Cannot Cure Shame: Boys cannot be shamed out of behaviors they were originally shamed into; punitive responses or social exclusion only push young men into destructive ecosystems and online echo chambers.
3. Shoulder-to-Shoulder Connection: Boys are socialized against direct, eye-to-eye emotional confrontation; parents achieve breakthroughs by initiating serious conversations side-by-side during activities like driving or playing video games.
4. True Accountability vs. Consequences: Real accountability requires understanding the impact and harm of one's behavior on others, whereas simple punitive consequences fail to foster empathy or repair relationships.
5. Staying Present Through Emotion: Caregivers naturally rush to fix, lecture, or distract a struggling boy, but true emotional maturity develops when adults simply stay present and allow boys to feel their emotions fully.

"I've never seen a kid or an adult who has been shamed out of something that they were shamed into in the first place." — Dr. Adam McCormick

"Trauma really at its core is a disconnection from our most authentic self." — Dr. Adam McCormick

"Our capacity to stay with them is oftentimes so much more important than even what we say to them in those conversations." — Dr. Adam McCormick

00:00 – Pre-interview discussion on episode topics and audience context
 11:29 – Welcome Dr. Adam McCormick author of The Cost of Becoming a Boy
 12:57 – Boyhood as cultural trauma and early emotional self-erasure
 17:42 – Cultural double standards and the crisis facing young men
 20:17 – Why shaming boys fails to change behavior
 24:35 – The function of shame and the tension between safety and authenticity
 28:56 – The loss of community play spaces and rising male isolation
 32:32 – How depression and mental health distress manifest differently in young men
 35:35 – Tactical strategies for parents: shoulder-to-shoulder conversations
 42:46 – Differentiating behavioral explanations from excuses
 44:30 – What real accountability and relational repair look like
 51:37 – One core principle for parents raising boys

Books, Links and Frameworks Mentioned

• The Cost of Becoming a Boy by Dr. Adam McCormick
• Author of Healing the Helping Professional: The Unfinished Business of Childhood Trauma https://naswpress.org/product/healing-the-helping-professional/
  
  
  

Authors & Thinkers Mentioned

• Dr. Gabor Maté – Concept of the traumatic tension between childhood attachment and authenticity

Frameworks & Concepts

• The Great Setup: Cultural conditioning that forces boys to disdain feminized traits essential for human flourishing.
• Shoulder-to-Shoulder Communication: Setting non-confrontational environments (driving, side-by-side gaming) to encourage young men to open up.
• True Accountability vs. Consequences: Moving beyond arbitrary punishment to relational repair, impact awareness, and tolerating shame.
• Small-T Therapy: Informal, daily relational micro-interactions with peers, mentors, and parents that regulate the nervous system.

What is Raising Men?

Raising Men is a podcast about parenting, masculinity, and the lifelong journey of raising sons—and ourselves—to be men of courage, character, and purpose. Hosted by Shaun Dawson, each episode features real conversations with parents, leaders, and thinkers redefining what it means to raising men in today’s world.

again

whether it's on a college campus or in a youth prison

when things get heavy

we start talking about trauma or heavy stuff

you know loss

grief that sort of stuff

it's so interesting how

how funny the room gets initially

and I always catch it and I always say

you guys notice that we're

we're we all including me sometimes we

you know somebody shared something really heavy

and we felt the need there to make a joke

to disarm a little bit you know

um it's just one of those many examples with boys where

you know we

we don't even real I mean I

I could give you 100 with my son

and in things that I've done

where I've just kind of

tried to rush him through an emotion

talk him out of an emotion

get get

get him through it as fast as he can

without even realizing

and I'm a social worker yeah

yeah you're trained

you're you're really aware of this stuff

how are we normal mortals supposed to deal with it

welcome back to raising men

today on the Raising Men podcast

we're joined by the author of

The Cost of becoming a boy

a groundbreaking book at how

cultural expectations of masculinity

systematically train boys to disconnect from their own

emotional lives he's a professor

of social work at Saint Edwards University

with over 25 years of experience

working with boys in foster care

schools and juvenile detention settings

his name is Doctor Adam Mccormick

Adam welcome to raising men

thank you so much Sean

I'm really excited to to be here

well it's

it's a real pleasure to have you and

and your work just absolutely speaks to the heart of

of what I'm trying to do um

in this entire

uh in

in this entire project and so let's dive right in now

one of the things you write about is

how boyhood

itself seems to operate as a form of cultural trauma

which trains boys to kind of

abandon traits like vulnerability and tenderness

and help seeking just so that they can belong

so tell me about that or how does that come about

and how does this

this kind of early emotional self erasure show up in

in the everyday lives of young men

yeah uh

it's a great question uh

and I call it the the

the great setup here and for

for so many boys we're

we're kind of

raised to reject those things in our society that have

that have just been been feminized right

um and

and for a lot of the boys that I work with and

and I include myself in this

I grew up with a very very just

just kind of hyper um masculine

very emotionally immature

rough hard father

um but also my culture was very much uh

that way as as well

so not to just kind of

reject everything that's kind of been feminized

but to to have this almost disdain or hatred uh

for it now

the problem with that what I

you know certainly

what I've Learned over the course of 25 years

working with survivors of childhood trauma

is a lot of the things in our culture

a lot of the things in our society

that we have just kind of feminized

that these boys are are

are really policed into or trained into rejecting

are the are the

are the very things that you

fundamentally need to be a happy and healthy person

especially in in childhood

we think about emotional expression

we have to grow up in an environment where we can

fully feel and safely express the full range of our

our emotions we talk about connection relationships

uh to express a need if we're

if we're struggling in in any sort of way um excitement

joy sometimes for for

for boys I think about this when I would go read to my

my uh

kids uh

classes when they were little

in kindergarten and preschool

go read a book to the class

and they used to always like when I would come

because I would do the voices and uh

you know the little boys in the class

they're just their hands are up

they're talking over you

they're showing you their artwork on the wall

they're so proud of it those same boys

by the time that they're in 5th or sixth grade

you don't see any of that anymore

so even the just the

the excitement the joy

the curiosity you know

these are just

the fundamental things that we need to be happy

and healthy human beings

but especially in childhood

and then when we think about young people

who experience the wounds of trauma

which is kind of where my work focuses on relationships

emotional expression asking for help

support connection

these are the only things that

could ever heal those wounds

or counterbalance the stress of those events

and for so many boys they're just kind of policed into

forced

into disconnecting from those parts of themselves

man what a vicious cycle

I suspect and

I mean the

the way that you frame that story is so clear to me

when I look back at my own kind of childhood experience

I mean I remember a specific instance

where it felt like the light in my eyes that

that you're talking about

that innocence faded

I had a teacher in school that specifically kind of

shamed me for that kind of joyous

reveling activity and and literally

the switch flipped in my brain

and made it to where I felt shame for that and

and took it away for years

and I almost didn't get it back

I don't know if I ever got it back really

um certainly as I become older

as I become my own as I've had my own kids

I start to I

I I'm

I feel differently about it

and I feel like that's a lot more protected and

and I view my own mission in my life

for both of my kids I have a son and a daughter and

but particularly for my son

that that fire within his eyes is

is there it's blazing

and I wanna keep it blazing for as long as I can and

but the world is coming for it

it feels like right and and

and so and I think we

we you know you

you you write

um so well that

that we're and I'll just quote you to yourself

we're living in a moment which

in which boys and men

are facing unprecedented rates of depression suicide

school disengagement loneliness addiction

relational instability and violence

and I mean

when you look at it that starkly

and you look at the data

you just can't look away from it

it is like a car crash is sitting there

and you never even knew it was there

you just kind of drove around it

and you didn't even pay attention

and now it it

I mean and

and if you and if you look at it

it becomes so obvious but it also

there's sort of a deeper cultural issue here

where it feels to me like

in every other aspect of our culture

we seem to quote

make space for all the nuances of experience and

and you know

take time to understand the deeper issues

driving the behavior and all of that stuff every

you know everywhere we don't

we don't blame the victim

we we try to understand what the root causes are

and all of that and that's the right thing to do

but then when it comes to our boys

we're happy to to blame the victim

and that seems to me to be disastrous

and I think your book is starting

you know trying to drive right to the heart of that and

and so what you know

how are you attempting to crack that nut

in a way that is productive

as opposed to kind of uh

you know counterproductive

yeah that's a great question um

you know we have to

we have to start to learn to walk and chew gum

at the same time like we can

we can do the things that we need to do in society

to hold boys and young men accountable

to understand you know

hurt people often times are gonna grow up to

to to hurt people

and we can absolutely hold folks accountable boys

young men grown men accountable for their

their behaviors at the same time

we have to do a better uh

job of of recognizing

especially in boyhood that this

this is this is rooted in

in a wound I mean

your example there where

where you were talking about the educator who

you know who they

they shamed you into this

this moment right

and and everything that I

I talk about when a boy disconnects from his

his his emotions

when he disconnects from that excitement or that joy

when he disconnects from you know

all of these human parts of himself

it's really really important that

that we recognize that disconnection right

as being rooted in in shame and whether we're

we're overly harsh and entirely focused on behaviors

and just kind of have these punitive

you know rigid behaviorally based responses to boys

you know we're gonna suspend you

we're gonna expel you you're gonna get in trouble right

or um

you know whether we

you know we just

just completely shame you

without really acknowledging the wounds that are

that are being experienced here

that's just not going to work

you will you know

I've worked with survivors

of childhood trauma for 25 years

one thing Sean

I have never seen in 25 years is a

a a kid

or an adult who has been shamed out of something

that they were shamed into

into in

in the first place that just

it just human behavior does not work that way

child development does not work yeah

when you say it like that

it's obvious it's not gonna work

yeah right

I mean of course it doesn't work

it it's

I've never been that like

I mean yeah

I've never been shamed out of

out of anything I've been shamed into either

and and so

and in fact what it

what it does is

drive me to look for alternatives to that environment

and then of course

I'm gonna find now on social media and the internet

and I'm gonna find a Miriam of

of people that are just waiting with open arms

to bring me in and then

you know start their grift on me and

and so like

we're just driving our sons into the arms of people

that they're not there to help them

they're

not there to help them adapt and thrive in our culture

they're there to stoke grievance and to make

get money and power and and whatever else

and social influence out of

creating an audience of folks that are agreed and

and so and that's

that's the last place we want our boys

yeah I mean

there's an entire ecosystem that are just masterful

I mean 10 steps ahead at weaponizing the shame uh

and the loneliness of of

of boys yeah

and we have got to as a society

as parents as educators

as teachers we have got to do something different

to recognize that shame very

you know I

when I run my groups

and it doesn't matter if I'm in a youth prison

if I'm in a foster care program

if I'm with the students on my college campus

here at Saint Edwards or anywhere else

when I when I

we start talking about shame

and this is an emotion that so many of these boys

and so many of these young men are absolutely ruled by

with no language for it no understanding for it

but we start talking about shame

for most of them it is

it is it becomes so evident right away that

despite the fact that they are just ruled

governed by this this emotion

they have no idea

they have no capacity to tolerate that

that shame to recognize where it comes from

and so if

if you know any

any one of us

just like you said if

if if

if we have this this emotion of shame

and we're not taught and modeled how to tolerate that

shame and pride

we're always going to turn it outward in some other way

I'm gonna blame everybody else

for what's going on in my life

I'm gonna shut down entirely

and disconnect from the people that can

that I can connect with that

that can help me that can love me

there's all sorts there's a host of things

you know you

I I was talking to my students in class the other day

about um

the strategic control skill of gaslighting

we hear a lot about in our society well

we we talk a lot about gaslighting

nobody ever talks about you know how

where does somebody get that

you don't just wake up one morning

you know

just knowing how to turn somebody's lived exist

reality upside down that is

that that comes from this inability to tolerate shame

it's an evolution that kind of grows into this

you know this really unhealthy relationship dynamic of

of gaslighting where I'm

where I'm effectively just taking all of my shame in

in turning it towards you um

but what we don't seem to have any curiosity at all for

for the wounds that

that behavior are rooted in so many other behaviors

that they're that they're rooted in in in boys

let me let me see if I can restate

something I'm hearing from you

and see if you agree with it

it seems to me that what you're saying is that we have

like a fundamental human need

like atavistic limbic system

um

cone of the barbarian brain need to avoid feeling shame

and then

our culture has figured out how to weaponize that

in order to get what it wants out of us in

in both like sort of positive ways

but also negative ways yeah

and

and that's probably bad

and and I want

so I want to ask you this question

and this is kind of a hobby horse of mine

is there ever an appropriate use of shame

absolutely shame if

but if there's

another thing I've Learned

in working with survivors of childhood trauma

shame keeps us safer than any other emotion

it gets a bad rap but

you know for good reason right

like we don't want to have shame outside of

kind of the do or die relationships

where we need it yeah

you know but um

there's a a brilliant author

Gabor mate and he has this

what he refers to as a traumatic tension

and the tension is

between our two most fundamental needs in childhood

the first of course

is attachment and the second is to be authentic right

or to live in alignment with who we were made to be

our authentic self but there's

there's often times this huge tension between the two

and in order to belong whether it's with our parents

our family later on in cult

you know with our peers teammates

classmates

uh in order to

to secure and maintain or to stay connected

we have to disconnect from these

these authentic authentic parts of

of of of of ourselves right

and and and in that disconnection

you know

trauma really at its core is a disconnection from

from our most authentic self now shame is the emotion

you know if I grew up with a father who was just just

just me he was a rager

he was an alcoholic he was I mean he was he was awful

yeah imagine if I'm a kid Sean and I

I see that he's awful and I tell him

you're being awful right now or I'm sad or I'm scared

you know he would have rather I be a

I was a tender sensitive kind of kid one of those

you know really just timid

timid sensitive boys yeah

he would have preferred I be a serial killer

than be a timid sensitive kid

imagine if I'm fearful in front of him or I'm scared

or I'm emotionally vulnerable in front of him

if I show if I express that to him

I'm gonna get my clock cleaned right

shame is the emotion that says you can't be this right

you that that emotion that you're feeling is not okay

there's something wrong with it and then over time

if it's persistent in your childhood

then it's not just

there's something wrong with that emotion

there's something wrong with that need

there's something wrong with setting that boundary

it becomes there's something inherently wrong with you

right with me here

and then so that shame kind of wears out its welcome

it follows us into every relationship

every interaction every encounter that we have here

so you know

shame gets a bad there is a

there is a good reason

that we have the emotional capacity for shame

and for for

for some men and some boys

that shame kept them safe in the moments where they

you know you can't be setting boundaries

you can't be authentically who you are

because you're gonna lose your sense of safety

or worse you're gonna lose your sense of belonging

or attachment to the people you need to be attached to

so basically what you're saying here is that

is that shame is a reaction to feeling unsafe

and that

it is a symptom of being in an unsafe environment

and one of the

one of the kind of tenants of healthy masculinity is

in my in my view is our whole goal

our whole job is to create a safe environment

which means that if you're creating an environment

where people are feeling shame

then you

by definition failed in creating that safe environment

is that would you agree with that

oh absolutely

without question I mean in

in in teaching the capacity to tolerate those

you know I the

the solutions here really

I don't think are that that

that difficult and

I mean it's

I think it's a little bit tougher

obviously now in our culture

in our society where boys are so disconnected and

and they don't have access to

you know many of the

the things that were built into childhood

that would have

that would have allowed you to connect with that uh

authentic self I was watching um

a couple months back

I was watching Stranger Things with my kids

and if you're not familiar with the the

the the show

I mean everybody's

I guess watch Stranger Things but um uh

you know it's just this band of

of kiddos that are just running around town

in the 1980s you know

it's what these big

big and my

and my daughter kind of made a joke and she said dad

what in the 1980s

did you guys basically

just run around town on your bikes and

and uh

you know get into trouble

and I I said well

you know it kind of

yeah you kind of did

you had your pack of friends and you

and you you went to the rec center

in the community pool in the neighborhood

in this friend's house and that friend's house and and

and and you had all of this

this opportunity for connection and exploration and and

and play and curiosity uh and

and for many of us you know

we still had hardships

and I remember my band of friends

you know we had fathers who were alcoholics

and there was domestic violence and there was all that

but but built into our society

or play and curiosity in so much connection that's

you know

and those are the things that kind of counterbalance or

or you know the

the stressors of life um

in the wounds of trauma that's

that's how you heal

that's how you regulate those sorts of things

so for a lot of boys now

given that they are so disconnected

I saw a statistic here in Texas

teenage boys in Texas spend less time playing outdoors

than Texas state inmates do

um wow

a lot of those structures in society

that have historically been built in

they're gone they're lost for them

so now we're seeing all of these really maladaptive

but perfectly understandable

and explainable ways that boys are

are adapting to

to this culture that's an interesting headline

and I mean

it seems like it's that

that seems really bad um

but you know

I mean is it

does that

is it impossible to develop those sorts of bonds in

inside activities or online activities or

you know what's the problem with that

I mean I think I agree that there is a problem

but how do we name that

yeah yeah

you know I think it's a little bit tougher

at the same time I

I get it for you know

a lot of groups of young people that

I think

those online connections that they have are really

really important for them

but I you know it's I

I don't I often times think of like online um uh

engagement is kind of artificial intimacy in

in many ways it's not the same as

you know being in

in relationship with with

with your friends and your teachers

and your peers and mentors and coaches and all

all of that sort of stuff

so

no I mean I

I think I think they have to have that connection and

and and

you know we

we heal the wounds of of adversity and trauma

and hurt and pain and shame in the context of

we heal those relationally

we know that the only thing that can counterbalance

the effects of those things

are relationships connection

I call it small t therapy

um those are just those little interactions that you

that you get throughout the day with your peers

and your friends and your coaches and your teachers

I I think about Covid right

these are the things that kids lost

and it was no wonder that right away

when we were locked down and shut down

almost every kid or especially teenager

adolescent was anxious and depressed

we lost the thing that we needed most

I remember getting emails from my students who are

you know freshman

sophomores in college oh Adam

I would kill to be back in class right now sometimes

isn't that crazy yeah

sometimes from students who never even came to class

that was kind of the point

we missed the yeah

the thing that we needed the most

these little interactions are so healing

for our nervous systems

so regulating for our nervous systems in

in what we what we're seeing in the data right now is

boys simply are not getting those

those interactions and those connections

is it is it the case that

I mean is it boys specifically aren't getting them

and that's the problem or is it that boys specifically

they need them more than girls and

and that's the problem because

I mean girls aren't experiencing this in the same way

and and they have

I mean girls have challenges

no question but they're different and

and so they they come out on the data in different ways

why is this uniquely pernicious for boys

yeah I mean I and

and I think we're seeing a

a a loneliness crisis in many ways for

for for all kids

boys girls

you know all

all kids I think it

it the data suggests

it's a little bit more pronounced with

with boys the

the issue often times with

with the difference between boys and girls

when it comes to this moment of

of when when they're in crisis

maybe they're having some depression

they're having some anxiety

they're experiencing some traumatic stress

how we respond to that um

and recognize that is

is entirely different and oftentimes we

you know we

we see data that um

you know suggests uh

so we'll take college age young men uh

we know college age

young men are seven times more likely to

to lose their life to suicide than

than than college age young women but

but also at the same time

far less likely to be diagnosed with depression

well depression in boys and young men

uh boys and young men are taught to kind of

externalize behavior it's gonna come out as anger

aggression irritability

shut down the

not the classic things that parents or teachers

or educators would be looking at to

to to explain that a

that a kid is depressed so at the same time

we know that boys are oftentimes socialized

as part of what you know

what I was talking about earlier

to disconnect from those most human parts right

you're disconnected from the parts of yourself

that would tell you you're in crisis

that would tell you that you need help

and then even if you were to recognize that

to be able to ask for that help

for many boys is the most shameful thing imaginable

that's this is an admission that I'm weak

that I can't do this on their own

that there's something wrong with me

in some sort of way

so not only am I not recognizing that I'm in crisis

but people around me are not recognizing that I'm

in crisis

even if I do recognize that

it's really really hard for me to ask for help right

and so what we need to do as a society

when we're seeing boys acting out anger

aggression irritability

they can't you know

can't focus in the classroom

substance use in school you know

in adolescence you know

risky behavior that sort of stuff

we have to start thinking about those as

as as warning signs that this is

this is a young person that's

that's in distress not somebody who's just

just acting out here we don't see those as wounds

we don't see those as mental health issues

but if you understand the ways that boys are

are socialized taught to externalize what's

what's happening inside of them

very quickly it becomes evident uh aggression

irritability um

risk taking behavior those are

those are cues that this is a

this is a kid that's in distress

yeah so let's talk about what to do with that

and you mention okay

well as a culture

we should recognize all of this stuff

but that's a little bit like

you know peeing into a fire hose

um

what can we do as a tactical matter with our own boys

are there you know

concrete skill building habits that we can

that we can do for ourselves or for them

what can we implement at home today

to create an environment where our sons don't have to

don't feel like they have to erase themselves

so many things and and

and the great part of this is is

is is all of these are things that anyone of us can do

and and when I it it

when I write the book you know

every time I I share a story

I try to share more stories from teachers

coaches parents

you don't have to be a skilled clinician

or a social worker or a therapist to do this stuff

yeah one of the things is

is and I encourage any parent

and any teacher

to do this with the boys that you're working with

is just initiate a conversation on what what

what they've Learned

or what they know about what it means to be a boy

um you know will will

they'll get the man up conversation

perhaps throughout life or they'll get those messages

but nobody teaches them what it means to be a boy

or to be a man what are the pressures

what are the struggles

what are the things that have been kind of

normalized for you and and

and more importantly how have you kind of

internalized that or interpreted those sorts of things

most boys

will never have that conversation in their life

and as you have those conversations

there are some some very tangible

easy things that that we can do that are really

really important setting

the conditions

of these conversations are sometimes as important

or even more important than what we

what we say right

the content of these conversations

I find this with my son

I just had an example not too long ago

where we were having a big

serious talk about something

as he's transitioning into college

we sit down at the dinner table

face to face from one another and

and we'd kind of I'd kind of scheduled this with him

boy he was not going there

it it

it it was just

you know close

close ended answers he just wasn't having it

yeah he's not conditioned for that

he's not socialized that so I try again about

about two weeks later when we're driving in the car

and we're shoulder to shoulder to one another

and I start asking some of this

and I initiate that same conversation

and I'm just driving in circles because he's just has

he's just opening up and he's sharing so much and

and it's very clear that he really

really is enjoying and needing this conversation

and I thought as as I was doing that

of so many of the meaningful

important conversations that he and I have had

over the years

you know it's been shoulder to shoulder on a video game

I can remember a young man that I worked with

in the foster care system

and I had to to share some heavy

heavy news with him

that his little sister was being adopted without him

and I knew that this this was gonna devastate this

little guy because his little sister was his world

and his last link to his family

and so

he and I both played video games quite frequently

and so I had that conversation with him

kind of shoulder to shoulder while and

and in the I think the only reason that he was able to

to regulate through that entire conversation

not to suggest that it wasn't hard or heavy for him

is because the conditions that were set there

so even something as simple as

kind of going shoulder to shoulder

and then the last thing with boys is

we have to

focus a lot more on our capacity to stay with them

as opposed to focusing so much on what we say to them

we don't realize it and even some of us as parents

and I certainly fall into this category

we don't realize that we're often times

socialized and trained to kind of

rush a boy out of an emotion as fast as we can

to talk him out of it

to work him through it as fast as we can

um well intended even

you know the best parents can can

can do this yeah

we wanna

just give them permission to feel what they're feeling

whether it's shame pain

hurt sad

just stay with them during those really

really difficult moments those really

really heavy feelings and emotions

um and in our capacity to stay with them is often times

so much more important than

than even what we say to them in those conversations

yeah I

I I

I've told this story before um

but my way of dealing with difficult emotions is

through humor

as it is with a lot of people

I'll make you know

dark humor black humor

you know just like

like I'll start making jokes about

about stuff and um

there was a time about so my son is 7 now

this is back when he was maybe 4 or 3 even

and he was upset about something

and so my again

my coping is my coping mechanism is humor

and so you know

my goal to to

to keep him from being sad is to start making him laugh

and he started getting frustrated with me and um

he was like so I'm I'm

I'm sitting there trying to make him laugh

he's starting to laugh and he goes daddy stop

and I go and I go what

he goes just let me feel what I feel

I was like brilliant

oh my gosh

and I I mean at

at once I felt I don't shame about gosh I

I'm not letting him feel what I feel

I'm like this

this is me training him to be like me in this way

that isn't great

but then I was also so proud of him that he was able to

like even at that age

like speak up and and

and push back on me and go

no man

I mean this is

I need to do I need to do this other thing

and I you know

I I mean

I had that reaction I

I and I was like

you're you're so right about that man

and I'm you know

I'm sorry I will do better than that and uh

and you know

and and

and I did and now he's

you know

he's able to process those things a little bit better

that's that's wonderful

I mean that's an emotionally mature brilliant

brilliant kid and good for you for allowing him to

I think he gets that from his mom

I think hahaha to have that space

but the reality is that the emotions of

boys elicit a lot of emotions in us

as parents I mean

this is

this is part of the reason why we don't go there

um cause I have

I have that same I have a

I call it the um

the entertainer the clown adapted

the only emotions that I could feel as a child safely

were anger and humor alright

so no matter what the emotion is for me alright

especially if it's a heavy moment right

you're gonna get anger or humor out of me

you know you know

before I did a bunch of therapy and stuff like that um

and I think when I run my groups in it

in it you again

whether it's on a college campus or in a youth prison

when things get heavy

we start talking about trauma or heavy stuff

you know loss

grief that sort of stuff

it's so interesting how

how funny the room gets initially

and I always catch it and I always say

you guys notice that we're

we're we all

including me sometimes we

you know somebody shared something really heavy

and we felt the need there to make a joke

to disarm a little bit you know um

uh and

and that's that's entirely adaptive uh

uh for us

but it's just one of those many examples with boys

where you know we

we don't even real I mean

I could give you 100 with my son

and in things that I've done

where I've just kind of

tried to rush him through an emotion

talk him out of an emotion get

get get him through it as fast as he can

without even realizing

and I'm a social worker yeah

yeah you're trained

you're you're

you're really aware of this stuff

how are we normal mortals supposed to deal with it

but I I mean I

I'm not sure that those reactions

or those reflexes are necessarily bad

like I mean

it's okay to to turn the relief valve a little bit

as long as we don't leave it open right

you know you gotta close it back down

and then you still have to go through the emotion and

and and process it

I think and

and you know

let me ask you one other thing about

I think part of like

if I feel resistance towards the notion of

you know letting my boy process those emotions and feel

be vulnerable and all the training him to be vulnerable

what I start to worry about is that

this becomes an excuse to misbehave and oh

well you're

you know you experienced this trauma

and that's why you're doing X

y and Z yeah

and so it's okay

and that so it's okay thing isn't true

it's not okay to act out it's not okay to allow

your trauma to get imposed on other people that that

that that don't deserve it

and so I mean

what is

what is the mechanism to prevent this from being

a blame game yeah

yeah and it

in the I've had these conversations

and I've had with all my kids

not just not just my son

but it's it's

it's really helping them to

to understand um

these behaviors and where they come from

as an explanation but never an excuse right

like we

one of the most trauma informed things we can do is

hold folks accountable for their

especially if the behavior is

is harmful towards someone

which we do know you know

when we think about like intimate partner violence

domestic violence you know

some of those sorts of things

that we do know that disproportionately

it's men that are that are perpetrating those things

right um

from wounds of boyhood

so making those distinctions between hey

this is an explanation

we can understand the origins of this

we can understand maybe where this came from

you were ashamed you were overwhelmed

you were disregulated whatever it might be

but that's not an excuse

so we're still gonna have some accountability here but

but the the

you know in this

in our society we don't

we don't understand

the first thing about accountability

accountability is not just a consequence I

I if you just give me a consequence for

for a behavior and I don't understand why I did it

where I came from

if I don't understand the impact that it had on you

the harm that it it

it caused you if I don't understand

you know if I don't have any curiosity

about your inner experience

and how my actions or behaviors harmed you

I'm not being held account

I'm getting I'm getting a consequence

that's it

and so we really have to better understand what is

what is accountability at

at the core of accountability is I

I have to

understand and be curious

about the impact that my behavior had on you

the harm that this behavior had

why the why this was so hurtful

why it would be so unfair to my teacher

that I acted up in class uh

whatever it might be uh

and and

and as I walk through this

you're gonna you're gonna recognize really quickly

a lot of these capacities

to do this

are capacities that we systematically kind of

shame boys out of haha

yeah and

and then uh

then then

you know I have to offer an apology

the apology is kind of a an early step in in

in in accountability

we kind of teach boys that it's

it's the end so now I'm

I have this shame for this behavior

so I have to I have to be able to tolerate this shame

meaning I have to I have to be okay with

you know mom or dad or

or a friend or a girlfriend

or somebody is upset with me

they're hurt by me

right um

so I have to I have to develop that capacity to

to to tolerate that shame

and understand how this behavior really

really impacted you for me to repair that relationship

so that I don't do this thing again right

that's accountability

we don't live in a society where we

we we think we're holding folks accountable um

by just divving out a consequence

we're not I promise you

I mean I see these

the work that I do is in youth prisons

where these kids are given

kind of big consequences for their behaviors right

or in foster care programs where they get

they're given big consequences for their behaviors

when in reality there's almost never accountability

nobody is doing the repair work

to recognize why this behavior

where it came from why did I do it

what is the impact that it had on somebody else

how do I repair that relationship

how do I develop the capacity to

to tolerate that somebody I care about I've hurt them

right or that

that that relationship might change a little bit

we're not teaching this stuff to boys

we're not teaching this stuff to men

yeah man

I I wish we had this conversation yesterday

I I had this experience last night um

as I was talking to my my son at bedtime

and he mentioned

that he was involved in an incident at school

where a bunch of kids vandalized the school

and he mentioned this and

and that he was one of the vandals

and what happened was that they had you know

boys will be boys kind of thing where you know

they all got together

and they wet a bunch of toilet paper

and threw it on the walls

and on the roof and stuff

that was the vandalism the vandalism that happened

so he and then he

so he copped to this with me and then he asked me I

I he asked me what was you know

is he gonna have a punishment for me

and I said well

what's the school doing about it

and he said he said well

we're you know

they're gonna have us clean up the bathroom and

you know

he mentioned all of these things and and I was like

well that seems to me to be

um

that seems appropriate to me and it seems like

I mean I don't think I need to impose any additional um

any additional punishment to you

so I think that's okay but why did you know

what made you do this like what and

and actually where I went with it was

like what do you think the impact was of that

you know who

who would have to clean that up if it wasn't you

well I guess it was the janitor well

is that fair like

is that you know

this guy this janitor has a

has a work has a job to do in the school

and he's got to keep everything clean

and he's got to do all this stuff

and now he's got to deal with this

all this extra mess

you know that you guys put in there

is that right is that fair

and he's like no no

it's not and but I didn't actually get to the bottom

of what drove the behavior in the first place

and I actually think I know the answer

so I I

it was you know

a belonging he fight

he had this group of kids and they're all like

it's kind of a vicious cycle

in the sense that they all want to feel belonging

and here's some activity that everyone's doing

and so I can feel belonging by engaging this activity

and then

to push back against the activity is the opposite

of that and so I missed an opportunity there

and the opportunity is not lost

he's downstairs right now

I can go I can go talk to him in a minute

um I missed an opportunity there

to actually get to the root of that

and talk a little bit about the sense of belonging and

and and why that felt so good and what he could

what we could have done instead

to actually

experience that sense of belonging

in a way that didn't have this negative repercussion

yeah and that belonging

and we forget this with boys and and

and I understandably

I get I get it too

but belonging is our strongest drive in life

because at one point in time

we don't survive without it

you know we

you know he's at

it sounds like he's at an age where

you know a couple generations back

not too long ago if he didn't get accepted by the pack

he's a he's in a lot of trouble when it comes to his

his belonging we don't want to forget that as well

um yeah

boys do all sorts of you know

we all kids have this

this our strongest drive in life is not just kids man

I mean I think you and I have it too

oh you bet

it doesn't end right after childhood we

we we

we still have it um

and often times we'll we'll disconnect from

maybe sometimes even our moral compass

in order to um

you know to get that belonging

and yeah I think just having that conversation to say

you know and

and we gotta equip boys too with that

that moral compass and those moments to say hey

for a lot of you guys you know

especially as you become teenagers

it's just gonna be these series of moments

where your head

and your heart are at odds with one another

listen to your heart in those moments

engage that moral compass

remember your values um

but that's that tension

it's attachment and authenticity

it's it's yeah

it's brutal for boys yeah

well I like to end these conversations with uh

more or less the same question to everybody

and I put everybody on the spot um

but

if there's one principle that every parent listening

should live by that comes to mind for you when

when raising their boys give me a

give me one principle yeah

yeah it is to remember that

that no matter how old that boy with a teenager

grown adult son

they they were born with these capacities

right to embrace the most human parts of themselves

connection relationships

emotional expression their needs

their joys the

all of those sorts of things right

we boys in boyhood

we disconnect from that authentic self not

not out of choice often times out of necessity

it doesn't leave us it doesn't disconnect from us

we never want we never want to think that it's

it's too late to do the work

I think with boys and men especially

we are so focused on growth and change

and what do I need to fix

and I I get all of that

but for a lot of us you know

as I think it is you started that story with your

you know that educator who

who really shamed you that the work is

is to reconnect with that boy uh

you know who was in that classroom that

that out of necessity

had to disconnect from your authentic self and and

and with boys and men for a lot of us

our work is not so much about growth and change

and fixing anything

uh

it's not about what is wrong with these behaviors now

it's a little bit more about what

what might have been right

or what purpose did they serve um

back then um

and these are these are wounds

and with boys and I get it

it's a little bit tougher

but we have to recognize these as

as wounds if we're gonna

if we're gonna disrupt this cycle in any sort of way

yeah I love that

well this has been Doctor Adam Mccormick

he's a professor of social work at Saint Olaf's

University and the author of The Cost of becoming a Boy

Adam's work is a powerful reminder

that reframing our sons struggles

from character flaws to survival strategies

is where we can really begin to understand where

they're coming from and where the healing can begin

you can find Doctor Mccormick's background

book links and additional resources LinkedIn

the show notes thank you for listening to Raising Men

and you are a great parent

raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez

this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino