This podcast is where your inner work begins. Each season, we skip the small talk and get straight into: nuanced conversations about self-care and inner work where you’ll feel understood instead of overlooked, practices you can try as soon as the episode ends, and reflective prompts that connect you and your experience to the conversation.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
You're listening to Inner Warmup. I'm your host, Taylor Elyse Morrison, Founder and Author of Inner Workout, ICF certified coach, and fellow journeyer. In 2017, I set out to build a life that didn't burn me out, and I found my life's work in the process. On Inner Warmup, we talk about how self-care and inner work show up in your relationships, your career, your schedule, and then the conversations you have with yourself. We get practical, we get nuance, and we're not afraid to challenge wellness as usual. So take a deep breath and get curious. This is where your inner work begins. We're in for a treat today.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Today's guest is Camesha L. Jones. She's a Community Mental Wellness Change Maker and a Licensed Clinical Social Worker who serves at the intersection of culture, community, and social justice. She's the Executive Director of Sista Afya Community Mental Wellness, which is a social enterprise providing low cost mental wellness care that centers the experiences of Black women in Chicago. Since their founding in 2017, they've served over a 1000 Black women in Chicago through their innovative community driven programs. In 2020, they launched the Sista Afya Community Care non-for-profit, which provides free mental wellness care and education to women experiencing multiple barriers to care. So keep listening to hear what brought Camesha to therapy as a patient, her tips for finding your best fit therapist, an insight to what it feels like to be on the other end of a therapist breakup. Camesha, I am so so excited for this conversation. Thank you for being on the show.
Camesha Jones:
Thank you for having me.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
So the whole idea of this season is that we wanted to talk to people who were practitioners and kind of experts in their field about what people should know and be aware of as they're looking to work with people like them. And so I wanted to talk to you for a lot of reasons, but because I think you bring such an interesting perspective to conversations about therapy. So before I dive straight into the topic, which sometimes I have a tendency to do. Let me zoom out and let you introduce yourself. Can you tell us just a little bit about you and about your work?
Camesha Jones:
Yeah. Sure. Sure. So, Camesha Jones. I am a Licensed Clinical Social Worker and also a mental illness survivor, so I came to this work and came to the mental health field really out of my personal experience, just navigating the mental health care system. When I was in my senior year in college and then moving on to graduate school, I had my first mental health crises. And when I had my crises, no one in my family had ever at least was diagnosed with a mental health condition. So navigating the mental health system was something that was new to me, new to my family, and I definitely felt, like, a lot of shame.
Camesha Jones:
And I felt like I did something wrong, and so I blamed myself for what I was experiencing with my mental health. And so when I would go to spaces I would have practitioners that didn't look like me. And I was also, a lot of times, the only black women in these different therapy groups and different modalities in terms of being able to heal other mental health conditions. So I decided to do something about it and kind of use, you know, my personal experience, but also this really great training that I got in graduate school and merging with these two together to create Sista Afya, and we're a social enterprise that provides Mental wellness care that touches the experiences of black women. And so therapy for me has been life saving. I'm still in therapy to this day, even though I was diagnosed 10 years ago, this summer will be 10 years. But I know that if I didn't have it, if I wasn't able to access it, my life experiences and my trajectory just would have been really, really different. So I, in some ways, am the living example of what it looks like to get on that other side of stability and to be thriving in life after engaging in some mental health care.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Yeah. And that's part of why I wanted to speak to you because like you said, you have first-hand experience of being in therapy and not always feeling represented in therapy, but then you also went to grad school for social work and have this depth of training. And then the work that you do through Sista Afya allows people to have access to therapy. And I'm wondering, you shared why therapy and having that access to therapy was so valuable for you. And like you said, your life would probably look really different if you weren't able to access therapy. Why did you then decide that it was important enough for you to make it your life's work really to make sure that other people, especially other black women, had access to therapy?
Camesha Jones:
I believe that having access to therapy is important because if we look at, like, our history in this country, there have been, you know, our ancestors, our family members that have been struggling with mental health that they may be called it different things or didn't seek help and then it got progressively worse. So if we're able to have people access therapy when they start to experience challenges with their mental health, it makes it more likely that they'll recover faster and also that it doesn't have such a negative impact on their functioning and their capabilities in their everyday lives. So having access to therapy specifically for black women who we've talked about the strong women trope and, you know, not showing weakness, believing we have it, all those different things that are out there, it gives black women a space to be honest, to be vulnerable, and to receive support. There are so many women that I know that when I ask them, you know, what do you need? They're like, no one ever asked me that, you know, or what help do you need? It's hard for me to ask for help. So I think therapy is this space where black women can really just kinda take off all these different things that are put on us, these expectations, and to show up as our authentic selves and to also receive care and receive help, which isn't something that is always happening. So having access to therapy just really helps with that process for anybody, but especially for communities that have not always had the opportunity to engage in therapy and to do so in a way that can be really transformative.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
We did a whole season on this idea of being the strong friend because I - I find it so often, we feel like we need to have everything together. And I love this idea of therapy as a space where we can unlearn some of those ideas and not just literally, like, you're working through your trauma, you're working through things in therapy, but also even just the act of showing up. You're putting yourself in a position to receive, which for many of us, like you said, that's not a position that we're used to being in. I'm curious because in your story, and you can correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds like and the things came to ahead with your mental health. And so I'm almost picturing, like, sirens. Like, it was very obvious flashing lights like, I need therapy. I need to get support. It's not always that obvious for people.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
So what are some signs that, like, hey. Maybe I should seek out a therapist in this instance.
Camesha Jones:
Sometimes that someone will need to access therapy have to do with your basic functioning. So if you're not able to do the things that you would normally do because of mental distress. That is one of the biggest signs that you would need therapy. For example, say you're living with anxiousness or worry, and you're so worried that you stop going out with your friends or your family, or you're so anxious and worried that you're not able to sleep at night, and that affects you to be well the next morning. So, really, it's when your basic functioning is really being interrupted on a regular basis, and that's the fault of all mental health conditions. So anxiety, depression, traumatic stress, Schizophrenia, Bipolar, all of those things. So if you start to notice those shifts, that is when it's important to take action as soon as possible. Because what I see a lot from my own experience, but also in the work that we do at Sista Afya is women come to us when it's gotten really, really bad.
Camesha Jones:
And they may have seen their functioning change, they may have seen their mental and behavioral response has changed, but they thought that it was okay and they didn't really need to get help. So engaging in therapy when you either start to experience a little bit of it or even if you anticipate that you're gonna have a major life event that's gonna change your everyday life, like becoming a mother, getting married, graduating from college, starting a career, someone passes away. Those are also really important times to go ahead and seek therapy because of just the sensitivity of those time periods.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
I really appreciate that you talked about kind of that duality. So one is it's gotten so bad and you're noticing, like, I can't get out of bed, or I'm not going out, or I'm unable to concentrate on the things that I normally would enjoy or the things that I have to concentrate on, like, for example, if you can't do your work. But, also, if you notice, I used to love watching movies, and now I can't even do that anymore. Those are signs to go to therapy. But then also, I liked this proactive side that you mentioned too, which is like, okay. I know that I'm going to be getting married or graduating or some other big life. I'm moving across the country. Maybe it's a good time for me to get in therapy as well.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
And I've noticed for my own journey that previously, I would wait until things got, like, really bad where my anxiety was really bad or those types of things to be like, okay, maybe I need therapy now. And what I've started to realize is I'm getting a little bit better at proactively seeking support, like when my book was coming out, and I had also gotten diagnosed with ADHD. I was like, okay, I'm gonna have a lot of changes. I already have this big change that's come up in terms of a diagnosis, but also with the book. I know that that could bring up a lot of stuff for me. Let me go ahead and seek support so that I'm already supported as I'm navigating those things. So both can be true. That's really helpful.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
I'm like, I need that note to myself as a reminder of like, okay, Taylor. Right now, I'm actively in therapy, but I might get to a point, and we'll talk about this later, where I might be like, it's okay for me to pause. Those are good reminders for when I need to seek coming back to therapy, which brings me to another point. What should we be considering when we're looking for a therapist? I will say, especially as someone who has ADHD, it can be so overwhelming to find a therapist. And I have been in situations where, like, I've figured out that I need therapy, and the process of finding a therapist seems so daunting and overwhelming that I just kind of freeze.
Camesha Jones:
So the process to actually find a therapist is where people can just stop. Right. Because they're like, this is too hard. There's too many steps. Who's a good fit? Like, the whole search process is actually one of the biggest barriers in terms of people being able to access therapy. When you're looking for a therapist, the first thing that you wanna look for is alignment with what you're experiencing. So all therapists don't treat all things. You have therapists that may specialize in supporting people with depression, issues around self-esteem, self-worth, anxiety, marital issues, like, the list goes on.
Camesha Jones:
So the first thing that you wanna do if you go to a therapy directory, say, like, therapy for black girls, or Psychology Today or Zencare. In that little search queue, you wanna check off, okay, what are the therapists that specialize in this particular thing that I'm experiencing? So that's the first step. The second step is affordability. This is also one that people get really, really, really caught up on because insurance, like, sometimes I just hate the health insurance sector because people may feel like, oh, I have health insurance, but I have this deductible that I have to meet. And deductible means you have to pay out of pocket before insurance will cover it, and so they may find out I have this 3,000 deductible that I have to pay and so I'm just not even gonna - therapy is just gonna have to wait because I can't pay that amount of money out of pocket until my services are covered. So making sure that if you have insurance or Medicaid or you're paying out of pocket, that that therapist accepts it. Because sometimes people will think, oh, I found a therapist. They match what I'm looking for, but, oh, crap, I can't afford it.
Camesha Jones:
Or I don't have the insurance coverage that that therapist takes, and then lastly, interviewing a therapist. Right? So if you're looking for a therapist, you may wanna choose three that you see that are - that seemed like a best fit for you after reading their website, reading their bio, and then doing a consultation with those therapists to learn about their style, learn about how they could support you. To learn if you're a good fit because sometimes you might think a therapist is a good fit, but then when you talk to them, both of you may find out that you may not be aligned, and so that is the process that I recommend. It takes work, so if you're looking for something to be like very very easy, the process is not really that easy. I wish it was easier, but those are some of the things that I think can be helpful throughout your search process to make it maybe a little bit easier than without having this information.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Yeah. I like that breakdown of, do they treat what I want to be treated? Is like, is there that alignment? Looking into the payment pieces of it, and then getting to the relational piece as well. So it can take time. And, Yeah. I guess I'm wondering if you have any tips in that therapist interview, so to speak, which would typically be like, some therapists might have an intake session. Everyone does it slightly different, but are there questions that we should be asking, I know I've had instances where maybe I've been several sessions in and then realized, oh, wait. Like, there is not alignment here, and this is actually worse for my mental health to be working with you than if I wasn't working with a therapist. So any tips there for interviewing therapists?
Camesha Jones:
One, you want to know their experience. So how long have they been supporting people who are experiencing what you or experiencing, I wanna bring the therapy. The second thing to ask is, what are their approaches? Are they person centered? Do they focus on building upon your strengths? Do they use a particular type of therapy? So for example, people who are experiencing traumatic stress, one of the top therapy practices is EMDR. So it's like, do you use those types of therapeutic approaches?
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
And I'm gonna pause you there. I know what EMDR is, but I know not everyone knows what that is. Can you break down what that acronym means?
Camesha Jones:
Yes. It's eye movement desensitization.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
I forgot what the R is.
Camesha Jones:
I forgot what the R is. Therapy. So there are different approaches to therapy. For example, at Sista Afya, we have therapists that do black feminist therapy. Right? So it's like, there's all these different approaches, and so asking about what approaches they use is really important. And then also time commitment. Some therapists cannot meet with people weekly. Right? Or some therapists or people may wanna meet with their therapist more than once a week or once a month and all those different things.
Camesha Jones:
So the frequency is also important because, say someone is going through some challenges repeatedly, they need that more hands-on therapist than a therapist whom you can kinda pop in a little bit less frequently. So scheduling is something else that's important as well. And then also, like, typically, how long are people seeing them for therapy? Like, how long do you think I'll be in therapy? Is it 3 months? Is it 6 months? Is it a year? And so that can help you to know what your trajectory looks like. Sometimes it's kinda hard to tell how long someone needs to be in therapy. But usually, I would say, on average, probably 6 months. But it just really depends on the severity of what someone's experiencing and how much ongoing support they'll need.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
That's so, so helpful. And what I was realizing as I was listening is in a lot of instances with therapy, I haven't felt like I was allowed to ask those questions. I kinda felt like, Oh my gosh. I found someone. I'm so happy that I found someone. Let's just make it work. Instead of feeling empowered to ask those questions that make sure it's a fit for both of us. So I just appreciate that reminder.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
And for anyone else listening, like, we have permission to ask some questions of our therapist, and it's probably going to make the experience better both for us as the people seeking therapy as well as for the therapist. So I just needed that reminder. Thank you, Camesha. You mentioned something else in there that I want to loop into, which are the different types of therapy. How can we know what type of therapy we need? Like, I've done Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which is a pretty popular one. I have anxiety, so I know with all of the thoughts and things that can happen in my head, It's nice to be able to break them down and reframe my thoughts using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. You mentioned EMDR. I have a friend who's in Somatic therapy.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
There's the other one, DBT.
Camesha Jones:
Dialectical Behavioral Therapy.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Yeah. And that's a little bit more, It brings more mindfulness into it. There's so many different types. So I guess I'm wondering, like, how do we know what types are effective? I could see myself going down a rabbit hole and not knowing which one would be right for me.
Camesha Jones:
Well, one, I think, you know, especially now people use Google and Chat GPT and all these TikTok or they use all these different things to learn about different therapeutic approaches, I would say something to Google. Like, say, if you're experiencing depression, what are the top therapeutic approaches for depression? And then usually, there'll be some blog post or something that will list all these different therapeutic approaches, how they're similar, how they're different, and then maybe seeing which one seems like it would be a good fit for you? And then also asking, like, the therapist that you interview, can you tell me more about this particular therapeutic approach that I've come across. Those are some ways that you can, like, learn more about therapeutic approaches. I would say it's important, but also one of the most important things is your relationship with the therapist and how you are able to achieve your goals, and the therapeutic approach is just a way to help you to achieve your therapeutic goals. So it's important, but also I would say a relationship that you have with the therapist And actually really working towards goals and just using what's necessary to help you to work towards those goals is just is, like, equally important.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
That's helpful. So in the grand scheme of things, if you can find a therapist that you feel like you trust and have a good rapport with, That may even be more important than having CBT versus DBT or any other number of things.
Camesha Jones:
Yeah. Absolutely. Because I've seen some therapists that on paper, they look really good, But they're not good at building a relationship. They're very standardized. So sometimes what you see on paper doesn't necessarily translate into the therapeutic relationship.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense because, I mean, it's just like dating or interviewing someone for a job, their resume or the profile could say one thing, and then you sit down with them, and you're like, oh, wait, this isn't what I thought it was going to be, and it sounds like it's not any different for therapy. Leaning even more into this piece on the therapeutic relationship, I'm wondering how we know when it's time to move on from therapy or a therapist, and I'm thinking of two particular instances here. So one could be kind of like the therapy has run its course. Like you said, like, it's been 6 months, it's been 8 months, it's been a year, and, like, now you're able to function and you're feeling pretty good versus maybe you have an instance where you realize you still need therapy, but maybe the therapist themselves might not be a fit for you anymore. So you can pick which one you wanna start with, but my overall question is, like, what are some signs it might be time to move on from either therapy in general for a season or a therapist specifically.
Camesha Jones:
So I'll start with therapy. When it's time to move on from therapy is when you're stable, when you're thriving, when you have the coping skills or the tools or the practices where you can maintain your own mental wellness, and also that when challenges arise that you can respond to those in ways that really help to I would say, like, to help to keep your mental health on the right trajectory. So for example, say you've been in therapy for 6 months, And you've been focused on being more active because you've been experiencing depression. And say if you're socializing with your friends, if you're able to get out of the bed and not struggle with that anymore, If you're able to do engaging activities, hobbies, etcetera, and you're feeling good, like, That's an example of when it's okay to move on. Now, for moving on from a therapist is if you feel stuck. If you feel like You're not making progress. If you feel like there's something more that could be done and that you're missing that thing, then that can be A time where it's time to move on for a therapist. We can also outgrow our therapist as well.
Camesha Jones:
There can be people that we may work with for 1 season In our lives, because we may be dealing with something in particular, but say, you know, you wanna deal with something that may be a little bit harder may be a little bit more deeper. Sometimes you may need to graduate to another therapist who may have more experience to help you with Those things that the other therapist cannot help you with. So those are examples of, like, when to move on. And then also moving on if you feel like You're not making a connection with the therapist, which is what you brought up earlier. If you are not making a connection with the therapist And you all don't have a strong and healthy therapeutic relationship, it's okay to move on. Starting over can be really hard because it's like, oh, I went through this whole process. I met this therapist. It's not a good fit, but it's better to get out early Then to have time pass, and it makes it a little bit more challenging to be able to start that search process over again.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Yeah. I appreciate that reminder. I always call it a therapist breakup. I don't know if other people call it that too, but I had to break up with a therapist, and I felt really bummed because I was like, I did so much work. I found this therapist. I thought she was gonna be great. She's a black woman therapist. And when it just came down to it, I don't know what exactly she had coming on, but she was like canceling the last minute a lot.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
And I was putting this time in my calendar and was being really prepared with things that I wanted to speak with her about, and then I'd find out shortly before, Oh, wait. We can't meet, and we don't know exactly when we can meet again because I run a business. I have a pretty full schedule. So, like, If I'm blocking this time for you, that doesn't mean I can then transport for it later. And I realized like, okay, this is not just one off. It's becoming a pattern, But I found this person. I don't wanna give it up. And then I ultimately realized, but I'm not able to make the progress that I wanna make if I'm preparing for these therapy sessions, and then she's not showing up or is last minute telling me that she can't show up.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
And it was really hard to do that, but now I have a therapist that I feel so much more supported by, and I'm glad I made the decision to make that switch rather than just kind of Trying to stick it out for too much longer. It's rough.
Camesha Jones:
It is. It is. And Sometimes we can really like a person, and there's not a good fit to be in our lives in terms of therapy. So I can understand How that, like, can definitely be challenging, for sure.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Yeah. And I appreciate that reminder. Like, we can like them. And for whatever like like them as a person, you breaking up with them doesn't mean, like, they are terrible therapists. They're just not the right fit for you in this season. I do wonder, speaking of using this terminology of like a therapist's breakup, do you have any tips for how to approach that conversation? Because it can be intimidating to end a relationship or pause a relationship. And I haven't been on the apps for dating, but I know from talking with friends that sometimes our tendency when something is difficult is just to ghost. And I'm not sure that that's the best approach in therapy.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
So do you have any tips for having that conversation?
Camesha Jones:
Yeah. Definitely. There are definitely people who ghosts therapists all the time for a variety of reasons. The therapist says something they didn't like. They don't think it's a good fit because they can't actually face or have the conversation. I think that if you're someone where it's a little bit more difficult for you to speak in person, like, in your actual sessions that you're ready to move on is to send an email. Just send an email saying, Hey, I appreciate your time.
Camesha Jones:
We worked together, but I realized that I need a different type of approach in therapy. I appreciate the time we've had together. If there are any referrals that you have to other providers based on what you know about me, please send them my way. So that's like a really easy way to do it if you're someone who may really struggle with having that conversation with the therapist in a session. If you are in a session with a therapist, you could almost say the exact same thing. I've been thinking and reflecting on our time together, and I realized that I need something different in therapy than what has been provided to me at this time. And just tell your gratitude for them spending time with you, supporting you, and beginning your search process. So it's really - I think we may make it harder than what it really is, but if you keep it short, sweet, simple to the point either through email, calling the office, or in a therapy session, then it helps.
Camesha Jones:
And therapists really appreciate that. Like, everyday people, how does it feel to get ghosted if you don't even know why? You don't even know what happened. You don't know if something could have been done differently. And so when you are able to end in that way, it kinda leaves on a good for both parties. And sometimes, you know, I've asked clients, like, is there anything that was missing or anything that I could've done better? And that also gives the therapist insight to, oh, okay. Maybe I could do that differently with a future client or this is how this approach came across.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
I love that. And just that reminder, like, yeah, therapists are people too. It's easy to forget that because we are having these like, intimate, vulnerable conversations and therapists' go to training to be able to hold space for those conversations. And I think sometimes we forget, the personhood that their people do. This is their job that they're highly qualified to do, and something as simple as sending an email or if you can have a conversation in person can go a really long way. I've got just a couple questions left for you. You mentioned this at the beginning that something that can get in the way of people going to therapy is the dollars and cents of it.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Like, it can be expensive. It isn't always accessible. And so I'm wondering, what would you recommend? Are there any practices that you would recommend for people who just simply cannot afford therapy right now.
Camesha Jones:
So one, of course, I'll shout out Sista Afya Community Care, we provide free therapy. But one good place to start are public health clinics or non-profit organizations. Because both of those places will provide therapy based and it won't be based on your ability to pay, so that is pretty much in the clear. The challenge is that sometimes you're not able to have as much of a variety with therapists because there's so few of them compared to therapists that may be in private practice. You can also check out this website called Open Path Therapy Collective. And so all the therapists on that website offer therapy sessions between $30 and $60 a session, which I think is a lot more affordable for people. And then the standard rate for therapy is, like, maybe $130 a session or something like that, if you're paying out of pocket.
Camesha Jones:
And, also, you can ask therapists about sliding scales. If there's a therapist that you're really interested in, you can ask them, do you offer sliding scale therapy? And there are more places that offer that now more than ever. So I would say those are some options if you're struggling with affordability.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
And then the last question. I'm really curious to hear your answer for this. What is one misconception about therapy that you would love to set the record straight on?
Camesha Jones:
The one misconception about therapy is that what I had mentioned in the beginning, that it's only when things get really, really bad. Therapy can be really, really helpful if you're able to access it or use it when you start to feel changes. There are so many I don't even have enough numbers in my head about how many people who think that therapy is for crazy people. People think therapy is for when it's really, really severe. And that's not true at all. Sometimes we can benefit from therapy in a variety of times, time frames in our lives. And so I would say the misconception around when you should seek therapy and what it looks like when you should seek therapy is one that really gets under my skin, but also that their mental health and therapy is preventative. Some people think it's more of a reactionary, but actually, if you're in therapy consistently and you're working with a therapist that's a really good fit for you.
Camesha Jones:
It can be preventative to all these other things happening. And so I really encourage people to not look at therapy as something that you need when things get really, really bad, but just as something of having, like, an objective person that can really help you and support you during these various stages, challenges, or seasons in your life.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
I love both of those. This has just been such a great conversation. I hope that this will be a resource for people who are thinking about being in therapy, are navigating finding a therapist. And I wanna say thank you again for sharing so much of your wisdom, Camesha. If people want to stay in touch with you, they want to get connected with the work of Sista Afya. Where can they find you?
Camesha Jones:
So if you're in Illinois and you're interested in therapy with us, We have five therapists on our team. So, you can go to SistaAfya.com/therapy and sign up. We can see anybody in Illinois virtually and also if you're in the Chicagoan area in person. If you want to follow us on social media at Sista Afya, we post very regularly so you can see what we have going on and get a feel of everyone who's a part of our business. And then, also, I'm on LinkedIn. I post - personally, I post the most on LinkedIn. So you would just find me at Camesha L. Jones, and you can, like, learn more about my background, my work and ways to stay connected, and I respond to people. Like, if people send me a message on LinkedIn, there's, like, a 90% chance I'm gonna respond if they have a question.
Camesha Jones:
So, yeah, those are the ways that you can stay connected, and thank you again, Taylor, for having me on the Inner Warmup podcast.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Inner Warmup is a collaborative effort. It's hosted by me, Taylor Elyse Morrison. Danielle Spaulding provides production support, and it's edited by Carolina Duque. If you enjoyed this episode, share it with a friend. And if you're looking to continue your inner work, Our free Take Care Assessment is a great place to start.
Taylor Elyse Morrison:
On that note, take care.