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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Welcome to the System Speak podcast, a podcast about dissociative identity disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Hello. Can you hear me?
Speaker 2:I can. Excited to get to, meet you on top with y'all.
Speaker 1:I am really, really glad you are here. I've appreciated your emails and also just it's a big deal. Maybe maybe start with introducing yourselves just enough that listeners can acquaint to your voice. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, we're the Chianu system. We do educational and playful videos online on, like, YouTube, TikTok, Instagram. We, so the system's been active for about five years. Started therapy about six years ago, after having a a major dissociative episode. We just didn't know that's what it was.
Speaker 2:We just knew we were numb and then had lost several days and weren't okay, even though we we thought we had healed from, like, our childhood stuff. So, that began our journey. And, yeah, fast forward, a lot of learning and research and growing, and, here we are.
Speaker 1:We can put your social media names in the show notes for people to be able to see if you want. We don't have to if you don't want to, but we are happy to do so if that is helpful.
Speaker 2:And Yeah. That's fine. Okay.
Speaker 1:I will put that in there. When did you start learning about dissociation specifically?
Speaker 2:So when we started therapy, our our therapist was not using that language. They were very much teaching us grounding and being present in the moment. It wasn't till about a year in when, I heard the first alter speaking, like, that they were able to to cross the barrier enough to to talk to me. And I went back in, and I was like, so I'm hearing a voice that, they started using more technical language, and, asking questions like, is this an inside voice or an outside voice? And I was like, oh, it's in my head, but it's not my voice.
Speaker 2:I've never thought these things in my life. So they had been addressing dissociation without specifically naming it until, Alters made themselves apparent.
Speaker 1:What was that transition like for you realizing what was going on?
Speaker 2:It was terrifying. 100% terrifying. My first thought was like, okay. Does this mean that I'm I'm crazy now? Like, have I officially lost my mind?
Speaker 2:Is that what's happening? And even learning that, no, that's not what's happening. My my therapist was like, actually, this is progress. And she was right. But even then, it was still like, what does this mean for me?
Speaker 2:What does this mean for my life moving forward? Will I have a life moving forward?
Speaker 1:It it is such an adjustment. And because we continue dissociating, it continues to be an adjustment. How did you get from that to to sharing about this online in your social media presence? I know for me, just recapping my story for context, that Uh-huh. I I do not have a on like, a social media presence at all, but I could only find YouTube videos.
Speaker 1:And I had six little, little children at the time, like, six under six. And,
Speaker 2:I
Speaker 1:didn't have time. Like, I don't mean disrespect to YouTube or to other social media. I didn't have time to sit and watch YouTube videos, and I did not have the social skills, just to be honest, of to be able to handle social media well or to do it well. Like, I just somehow missed that. I don't know if I'm too introverted or too nerdy or I don't fit well there.
Speaker 1:It is not a safe space for me. And
Speaker 2:Uh-huh. I
Speaker 1:because I have cochlear implants, I was already having to call this line every day to listen to they like, read you a story for part of listening rehab to learn how to use them. And Uh-huh. I also was wearing, like, a microphone all the time for improving my speech, like a microphone that went directly into my cochlear implants. And so instead of doing these random things that were tech literally texts of completely random things because they had to keep it random so that it would help with listening rehab and speech. And but it was all unrelated to me, and I was investing all this time while I was trying to parent in stuff that was unrelated.
Speaker 1:And so it just sort of came together. What if instead of doing all of that, I continue my listening rehab and my speech therapy by using content that I'm actually needing to learn about? And so started finding things to read or to listen to or to learn about or talking about therapy. And that's kind of where the podcast unfolded for me. And it was I really appreciated, especially that first, I don't know, I think I think it was maybe 02/2018 or 02/2019 where I was like, all these YouTube people, like, the major initial people, just come on the podcast and talk to me.
Speaker 1:Everyone can tell me their different perspective. And so it just sort of unfolded from that of having different systems and different voices and different experiences and sharing that with each other. And so that's how the podcast unfolded for me. How did that happen for you online and social media?
Speaker 2:So similarly to you, social media is actually not my favorite thing. I had taken myself off of all platforms. And then I got published, and my publisher was like, so you need a social media presence on all these different platforms. And I was like, but I literally don't even have a Facebook account. Like, I deactivated it.
Speaker 2:And so, I went about setting back up these social media platforms and learning how to navigate, all of that. But for me, when I was looking for information about my system, where I found it first was YouTube, I found a couple good books and a couple good websites, but, like, I was burning through information, and I had questions that I couldn't find answers to anywhere. So I found a few, YouTubers, and then I was going through their, just that list of things, trying to find answers and find hope. And the first year of system discovery was so hard, and we didn't know that it would ever get better. And after that first year, we had begun making well, we'll back up just a second.
Speaker 2:In in that first year, we had an alter who, had a lot of difficulty speaking. She wasn't mute necessarily, but it would take a lot for her to be able to say anything. And so we set up the camera, and we're like, would it help if you tried talking to the camera instead of a person? And so she would make videos about, like, what she was feeling, and there wasn't as much pressure. Like, she could just sit there and work up to to words.
Speaker 2:And then others in my system were like, hey. I I like that. I want to make videos as well. And that became our primary way of, like, getting to know each other is we would watch the videos that we had made to each other. So after the first year, we could look back and see how far we'd come and that it that it did get better.
Speaker 2:And that Alter, who who was the most private of us was, like, I think I think we should post these because we didn't know that it it gets better, and it would be good for other people to see that it gets better. And that's we argued for a year, because while she was definitely the most private and security minded, I was not ready for, like, as someone who is introverted, the impact of of being publicly known. But two years in, I was like, you know, you're right. I think I think this would help people. And so that's where we started with our YouTube channel.
Speaker 2:We our our largest platform is TikTok, and that was entirely accidental. We had heard, that systems because someone had made a post somewhere and was like, hey. Where where are systems hanging out? And, somebody replied, there's a lot of them playing around and having fun on TikTok. And we were like, oh, we wanna play and have fun.
Speaker 2:We had no clue what TikTok was. It had been around for, like, a year, and we've been avoiding it because social media. So we got on there. We found a couple systems, and we didn't even know how, like, exactly how the platform worked. And we were like, okay.
Speaker 2:We could figure this out. So push the button, record, make a video, post. Okay. And, like, a couple videos in, we had one go viral. And that was both terrifying and helpful because it went viral in the singlet world, and people had questions and lots of them.
Speaker 2:So we just started answering questions.
Speaker 1:Wow. I what's interesting about that part of your story to me is that I have two sons with autism, and one of them was nonverbal for a long time and then had echolalia for two years, and that was all he could talk. And Hi. We had we were on vacation one time, and I was filming something, just, like, making a little video of whatever it is they were doing where we were playing NASA or somewhere, I think. And he came up beside me and was like you know how kids just, like, crawl on you.
Speaker 1:And, he hit the camera so that the camera flipped, like, just accidentally. But he saw himself, and he was so completely intrigued and just started talking really almost for one of the first times in English, in full sentences, in paragraphs to the camera. And so starting after that, when there was something that he was really struggling to express or a big issue that was going on, we would be like, do you wanna talk to us, or do you wanna talk to the camera? And he would come and sit in my lap or or next to us or something. I would hold the camera up, and he would talk to the camera and be able to get everything out just fine.
Speaker 1:And we would have the most amazing conversations. And he is actually the one who first asked to be on the podcast. Right now, most of the stuff with the kids on it have has been taken down. But he was the first one to ask to do that because he is so able to express himself in that way, whereas in other ways, it's really hard. So I can't speak to, like, the neurodiversity of that or what that was meaningful to him, but what you shared resonated with me because of that.
Speaker 2:And thank you for sharing. That's very affirming for us.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think it's really significant. I I saw with my son how powerful that was for him. And and I know for you and what you're sharing that that's a different experience, but even just brain wise, like, it totally makes sense to me because of what I saw happen with him.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it really was, like, her her step into being able to communicate. And, we've encouraged other systems, likewise, when they're like, how do you how do you communicate with each other? And we're like, start external. We do videos, and it was it was so helpful.
Speaker 2:And it helps with the denial as well when you look back at a video, and you're like, I don't speak that way. I don't hold my body that way. It's definitely helpful. There's
Speaker 1:such a tenacity and courage that systems who are online as content creators or in social media seem to have this extra courage to be able to do that. And I think that's what it is, is that because they have done that externally, they are able to hold presence with each other generally in ways that even I still struggle with internally. And so I think, like, when we talk about, like, traditional DID or the plural movement and why does it look different, I think that's one of the layers. Just intuitively, once you have practiced that, which in in the past, before social media, therapy would have been the only place we would have been able to do that. Right?
Speaker 1:And it's a very slow process. But now to be able to do it on your own anytime you want or anytime you're ready, and to have that practice at the skill of communicating and listening and responding to each other so intentionally, I think, is a powerful thing. And one of the things that really shifts what, like, clinically, they call the presentation. Right? Like, how we present ourselves.
Speaker 1:And I don't mean that in a false way. I mean, I don't think that it's something that is inauthentic. I think it is something that is years down the road in therapy. Like, because I don't do that. I do it a little bit with the podcast because I have to listen back to them.
Speaker 1:But Yes. It's not the same as the whole experience like you're getting with videos. And so it seems to me like and I don't mean to speak for people on social media because I'm I'm not one. But it seems to me like what is different is that even when someone is coming to therapy, they're already in that specific way, not necessarily every way, but in that specific way, like, light years ahead of me on the journey because they've been so intentional about it where I'm like, yeah. No.
Speaker 1:I'm still scared of that.
Speaker 2:Right. It can be very intimidating, like, to know that there's these other people, and it is a remarkable tool to be able to have video or other ways of communicating with them where you can get to know them and then learn that trust. And I think also that helps where where you said it, like, it shifts the presentation because if they know they're safe to be who they are without masking, that is is huge. And to know what spaces they can be themselves, that was honestly one of the the things that improves communication and cooperation for us the most is when when the host was like, okay, I'm I'm done trying to control you. You can, within reason, just be yourselves when you're out, so long as the space is safe.
Speaker 2:And that was terrifying. I think all hosts love control. So, like, that was terrifying. But it was that that offer of trust and, like, for whatever reason, you're you, go ahead and be you. And it was so healing and counter to, like, the idea of, well, if you you let them be themselves, then you're, like, glorifying the difference.
Speaker 2:Like, counter to that, it brought us closer and began the process of lowering barriers between us.
Speaker 1:The only thing I can compare that to in my own experience is going to healing together and just see everyone let loose dressed as bees or littles or in their pajamas or teens ready to go out, like, all the things and seeing that play out. And I love that you use the word masking, and I know that we often have heard that from the neurodivergent community talking about masking and trying to present as, quote, quote, normal as possible. Yes. And the amount of energy and distress that that causes and takes to like, it uses so many spoons to mask. Right?
Speaker 1:But when we apply that to this situation, what I learned from that healing together experience that that you're describing for people who use social media or even videos, even if they don't share them to do that, is that facing the denial about dissociation. Like, basically, if when we talk about letting go of that masking, the implication of that is that that's really happening in us all the time. We're just not covering it up anymore. So we can't say this presentation is unusual. It's just not hidden.
Speaker 2:Yes. Very much so. Like, any system knows, if a little was given the reins, like, they would absolutely have their stuffies and, you know, some littles might put on, like, really fun clothes like a Superman pajama onesie or, like, a frou frou dress and, like, sit down to cartoons, and they would be living their best life unmasked and and just exactly who they are.
Speaker 1:That is both delightful and terrifying to me.
Speaker 2:Right? That was my response too. Like, this is terrifying. But, like, so long as it's safe, go ahead.
Speaker 1:How did you address that, the safety issue as you all started presenting online or or have like, establishing your social media presence, and then some things did go viral and people started asking questions. What was that like for you? In in the beginning. Not last year. We'll talk about that.
Speaker 1:But in the beginning.
Speaker 2:Okay. So one of the big concerns we had to talk about is, we live in the South and, and we like to call it the buckle of the bible belt. And today uh-huh. And, we had to talk with our our spouse a lot because where he works, like, he's he's in sales. He works with the public.
Speaker 2:So if our story was well known, he might lose business, and that would directly affect our livelihood, like our, you know, safety and security, the the base of the pyramid, like food, shelter, all of that, if people decided that, oh, well, his wife is demon possessed because a lot of Christians have that viewpoint of DID, and didn't go to him anymore. So that was a lot of the discussion for like, he was he was like, no. I think this is a good idea. We were like, are you sure? Because this seems like it could go really wrong.
Speaker 2:And he he was like, you know, Jen, the the alter who who first suggested it, it was like, if she thinks that she's willing to risk it, I'm gonna trust her. Like, I I know her, and she is not someone to take risks lightly. And he was absolutely right. Like, she's not someone to take risks lightly at all. She's very risk averse.
Speaker 2:That was our biggest point of fear. And then, like, knowing that we're we're out there for the the world to see, and what if people who we haven't told, like friends or relatives, get ahold of it? It was a lot of consideration on the front end, which is why we we all debated about it for a year. Like, we would literally have the back and forth, you know, via video or, we really like the conference table, exercises for internal internal work. And so I it wasn't something we went into lightly.
Speaker 2:And anyone who's like, I'm thinking about doing this, we're always like, definitely talk it over with your system because there are real consequences that can come out of it.
Speaker 1:Again, I'm just in awe of the work you have done because even just thinking about the conference table exercise, like, I hear the crickets play of, like, yeah. I'm not sure even I'm showing up to that table. But this is an example, of what we were saying earlier of just when you are finding a way, whatever anybody's way is, like, you do you peoples. Mhmm. Finding a way where there can be communication.
Speaker 1:And when communication works, then you can get to that place that you're describing where there can be discussions and everyone be on the same page. And I know for us on the podcast that was that discussion mostly happened through journaling and in therapy because that was about as close to a conference table as we could get. It was taking turns writing in a notebook. But it we we had concerns of, like, not just do we do this or not, but also awareness, like you're saying, that it literally exposes us and our family to the world and that you can't take that back. And then there's the discussions about who actually wants to participate or not, and who is able to consent to that or not and why.
Speaker 1:And those are big discussions. And I think people who don't understand how much goes into choosing the boundaries of what we share or not, I think that they they don't understand that or that Yeah. Well, we've written a book, and we've done the podcast, and so people know our system. Well, no. They know, like, a sliver of our system because those are the ones who were okay participating.
Speaker 1:Yes. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It makes perfect sense, you know, because even with the alters who have been okay with posting online, there are still others who their names have been have never been mentioned that, the people have never seen presentation of. Like, system work is very complex. And even within the freedom of, okay. We're gonna do these things, there's still the aspect of protection and needing to keep some things apart.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I just I've just felt the heaviness of that land
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And and how important that is. What else do you want to share about that before we talk about what happened last year?
Speaker 2:I I often have people ask if it was and is healing for us to do the work we do online. And I think what a lot of it has been is very much, healing in the way that DID is covert. It's not, like, don't look at me, Don't see me. Don't perceive me. And so for some of us, the very act of being seen was a defiance to the trauma that created those feelings, and very, difficult at times.
Speaker 2:But being able to be seen as who we are, to be known as who we are, I think is fundamentally a desire for everybody. But with systems, there's just a lot more of us, and it feels a lot more dangerous to engage in that kind of vulnerability.
Speaker 1:It is such a vulnerable thing. I think for us, it was about there were so many times our stories were used against us or our stories were violated or told for us or taken from us or that we were silenced, that it became a very healing thing to share our own story in our own words. And, also, even as being the black sheep of the family, which is terrible language use anyway, but that metaphor being thrown at us a lot or being told that we're crazy, to be able to say, not only am I not crazy, but let me say, this is what I experienced. This is what my experience was today. This is what my experience was today.
Speaker 1:And sharing those things, even if those are not the people who care or want to listen, to be able to reclaim my voice in that way has been very healing.
Speaker 2:Yes. And, like, so so needed. And we saw that once again at the Healing Together Conference where people could openly be, believed when they tell their story to present and no one questions that this is who they are. And it's that kind of, storytelling, you know, that is so so healing for, I think, stuck parts. And the work that you have been carrying on for years has been foundational for a lot of people in the community to know that that kind of storytelling is okay, that they can even talk about what's going on inside of them.
Speaker 2:I know some systems, like, having trouble to explain things will go, Hey, have you heard this podcast? Have you this this episode addresses the thing that I'm having trouble saying. It's such important work in the community.
Speaker 1:I think it's such an example of how it connects us. Like, even talking about the YouTube videos, I just I couldn't keep doing, YouTube. I mean, like, watching. I couldn't because I literally didn't have time. But like what you said, that's where I got that initial language of, oh, okay.
Speaker 1:That's what alters are. This is what dissociation means. When my therapist says this, this is what it means. Like, that's where I learned that in the beginning just to have language to express anything. And so I think I think that is a tricksy thing of social media in that, things can sometimes get watered down like a game of telephone.
Speaker 1:And Yes. It it happened actually with sign language. For example, I read this research article, and I'm including this a reference to this in my plenary for ISSTD that's coming up that I agreed to the week before what happened last year happened. But, anyway, there was an article, that came out about how on social media I think that article is TikTok specific, but how there are people who are have whole channels or whatever set up for teaching sign language, but the signs are not accurate. And then people are learning from them and then passing that on in ways that are not accurate and how it's, like, really disrupting sign language as the actual language for those of us who are deaf.
Speaker 1:And I think that that can be something that happens. I've seen it in that language in that example with sign language, like, just to keep things neutral. And, also, if we are safer with each other and kind to each other, we can educate each other, not in a corrective way, but in a this is what that means when we talk about that just so we know and understand what we're referencing. When we talk about structural dissociation or when we talk about this or when we talk about that, this is what that actually means. Make sure that we're educated and learning together as a community so that the things that we do share are accurate.
Speaker 1:But when we're sharing things about our experience, that's true to us, and no one really has a right to say anything about that. Yes. Very much so.
Speaker 2:As an example, you know, like, people who've had, system members who they say have died. Like, you can say, well, you know, part of your brain doesn't go away. Well, that doesn't matter. Their system member is gone. Like, you can't argue that this was their experience.
Speaker 2:Like, so there is definitely the the need for factual and correct information, but experiential telling is just that.
Speaker 1:Well and that experiential telling can also use metaphor and stories. And we've had guests on the podcast, both Kathleen Adams, who is a clinician, and also, our friend Bill, who is a clinician who who literally works with narrative structures and storytelling in therapy has come on and talked about this. But in both of those like, I'm just referencing specific episodes. But in in those episodes, they talk about how even children, when no one is listening to them, when there is misattunement so they are not understood or their needs are not being reflected or met, they have to go to stories to express what they're trying to say because no one is listening. And so the example of an alter dying, I I've never had an experience where, like, in the left in my left brain cognitively, I was like, oh, well, that alter is dead now.
Speaker 1:And yet I have had the experience even recently where, like, a major player in our system, because of a series of events happening, all of a sudden is gone and inaccessible. I don't know where they are. I'm grieving them. The world doesn't have as much color without them, and people around me can sense that that is missing. But I'm like, they're gone.
Speaker 1:I don't know what to I don't know how to explain that or to tell you. But the grief of them being gone absolutely feels like someone has died.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I think that inner world presentations very heavily rely on that sort of creative narrative to communicate ideas, like the like dreaming does with some sub, conscious symbolism.
Speaker 1:Well and and even in the context, like, as a clinician myself, even in the context of therapy, we have the, I think Bill talks about this in one of his episodes. We have the, historical truth as far as, like, here are the facts of what happened. But we also have the autobiographical truth, which is our experience of what happened. Uh-huh. And then we have the myth, not meaning like fake or not real or a lie, but myth as in the story that comes out of the experience, the legend of what we have endured.
Speaker 2:Yes. I, I was talking with a a system friend online, and they were talk so their their system they're also writers, and like many system writers, characters that they wrote have populated their their system. And so the alter who was out in, the inner world, it has, like is an elemental. It can control time. And, and she was expressing her, like, how do you even navigate?
Speaker 2:Like, I'm in a physical body. Like, I I don't have a physical body, but here I am in a physical body. And how do you grieve that? Do I even have permission to grieve that when clearly this is reality and what I thought was real isn't? And, we were saying, well, it's just because that was the formation that your your brain created, like, it still needs grief that that is not your physical reality because things that she was saying was like, I can't go back and change things.
Speaker 2:I was, like, if you can't grieve that you can't go like, you can't control time, you can't rewind and go back and change things, How are you going to grieve the physical reality that you can't go back and change what happened to you all collectively? Like, there's clearly a connection here.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And if we aren't free to talk about these things, if if we get, censured, we're talking about, of introjective, fictive, then we're going to miss these healing opportunities to realize that there is connection between what happened, the story that reality happened, and the story that our mind helped us to hold on to in order to navigate that.
Speaker 1:Well, even, again, even as a clinician, just for sharing that side of things, in in in a session, we call that trance logic, and you work with it. You don't shame it. So the same thing applies if I'm watching someone else's video on social media. I don't have any place clinically or otherwise to be shaming or arguing with what is being presented because, I I mean, lots of reasons. It's not my place for one thing.
Speaker 1:But also, because of exactly what you're saying, that there's purpose in that. There's a reason for that, and there are not just, like, defenses, but protective
Speaker 2:Uh-huh.
Speaker 1:Necessities even like, I just wanna use the word necessity. I know that's not a clinical word, but there's a necessity for why that is happening. What purpose is that serving? And so Yeah. It's not something to be argued with or shamed.
Speaker 1:It's something to be worked with. But in the context of therapy, if I'm not, like, if I'm not a friend that is following your social media, then what you share on social media is not your business. And if I have something to say about how you're presenting and I'm not your therapist, it's still not my business. This conversation will be continued in the next episode. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 1:Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemspeed.com. We'll see you
Speaker 2:there.