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The Sleuths are real private investigators here to help you find the truth when you need to know. With sometimes shocking, heartwarming, and hilarious stories from the field, they keep it real. Interviews with experts bring you insights on how people leverage P.I.'s in their lives and businesses. When you need to know, call the sleuths — licensed by the North Carolina Department of Public Safety, Jamie hosts this entertaining and informative podcast to educate individuals and business owners.
Jamie: [00:00:00] [00:00:15] [00:00:30] Sleuth Listeners. We are back. Woo hooray. The Sleuth podcast is here to tell you the truth when you really [00:00:45] need to know. I am Jamie, your favorite private investigator, and we are here to tell you more of our crazy stories and get you more, updated with what's been happening with us.
We have been gone for a little while. It's been a couple years. I don't really know how [00:01:00] long. But we are now back with some new energy and a new co-host and I am super excited to have her with us. Her name is Brooke.
Brooke: Hello. How are you today? I'm so excited to be here.
Jamie: I'm very excited to have you here.
Brooke [00:01:15] is all things awesome. Appreciate that. First off, thanks for coming. Thanks for doing the podcast. Of course. With us. Course, you know, she is new to the team Yes. With Blackman Detective Services, so she is a little brain in the office. And she has been awesome to work with.
The deep [00:01:30] dive on the, you know, social media stuff. Yeah. Is, is unlike any other I have seen super excited about that.
Brooke: How is it going
Jamie: for you?
Brooke: It's been great. I appreciate the brain comment. I refer to myself as the office nerd affectionately. I love [00:01:45] this stuff so much.
I just have that natural curiosity about human nature and people and why they do what they do, and I love getting to the bottom of things. So it's been a good fit so far. I've been here for almost three months now. Honestly, the time has just flown [00:02:00] by. No way. I started in June. Really? Mm-Hmm. Wow. Happy off.
Okay. Okay.
Jamie: I know it'll be Christmas next week, so not excited about that. Get your cookies ready, right?
Brooke: Yeah. Start baking now. Do you make cookies? Yes. Okay. [00:02:15] Snickerdoodle.
Jamie: Okay. Yes. I'm an oatmeal raisin girl. Okay. So I might. Bless y'all with my oatmeal raisin cookies. Please do. Yeah. We do have Joe here again.
Hello. Yay. Hello. Joe is back with us. He is our expert behind the scenes [00:02:30] on all things Experty.
Joe Woolworth: I'm here to edit stuff.
Jamie: Edit things and, and give us some words. So excited to have him here. And we also have a guest this morning. Miss Faith. Good morning, faith. Good morning. [00:02:45] Faith, who are you?
Where are you here?
Faith: Yeah, who are you? Faith, that is a loaded
Jamie: question.
Faith: Tell us. Well, my name is Faith and Home Chef. I work as a private practice therapist slash also work at a rape crisis center. Oh. So that my job. [00:03:00] Takes up a lot of my identity as usually with therapists slash social workers.
Jamie: Yes.
Faith: Do. So that's a big, big part of me. I'm a friend of Brooks. We've known each other since Valentine's Day. Yes. Valentine's Day brunch. Yes. We go. Tell me
Jamie: [00:03:15] the story. Yeah, because I didn't know this. Of course. Sorry.
Faith: I think it was along the lines of. Hello. Who wants to do something on Valentine's Day?
Who does not have anyone to do Valentine's Day with? Yes. And they had coffee flights, so they did on vent. Oh
Jamie: yeah. That's nice. Mm-Hmm. Where was this
Brooke: pancake [00:03:30] action? Pineapple Soul and Carrie. Okay. Mm-Hmm. Okay. Solid brunch Spot. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Okay.
Jamie: I love a brunch. Mm-Hmm. Okay. And Brooke, what, what, okay, so we're talking about the Casey Anthony Case today?
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Crazy. I do not, [00:03:45] we were sitting here trying to figure out, you know, what was going on in our lives. And when was, what year was this?
Brooke: This was 2008. 2008.
Jamie: So
Brooke: I was a little young and I was 12. Oh. So I feel like people my age, we were kids and so we were [00:04:00] sheltered from this case. So I learned about this case much later on in life.
Jamie: Okay.
Brooke: Yeah.
Jamie: I certainly don't remember it at the time. I've heard the name and I knew it had something to do with a child being killed, but I did not know any like details.
Faith: Do you
Jamie: remember [00:04:15] anything about it from the past or
Faith: so? This may just be 'cause of my proximity. I'm originally from Alabama.
Jamie: Okay.
Faith: And I remember. Being in the living room have with like the, the trial going on, like on the tv, like my parents watching it. Crazy. So I [00:04:30] remember watching the Casey Anthony guess. Of course at the time I really didn't know what was going on. Yeah.
Jamie: But you was like, who are these people? And you hear the names.
Yeah,
Faith: I knew her face. Yeah. And kind of a little bit about what happened. And again, that might be 'cause I was kind of closer to the action of what was going on. Yeah. [00:04:45]
Jamie: She this case is very, very interesting. There is a million in one podcast. You know, all things about Casey Anthony and Kaylee Anthony.
It was capturing significant media attention. The parents were on tv. You know, it was on [00:05:00] People Magazine. There was a victim Kaylee Anthony. She was a 2-year-old little girl. She was reported missing in July, 2008.
Her remains were found. It says December of 2008 near the Anthony family home in [00:05:15] Florida. So what was really weird about this is, casey, was, how old was she? About 18, 19 mm-Hmm. When she had kalee. Yeah. So she and her party girl
Brooke: era.
Jamie: Yes. And her party girl era. And she left out of the house [00:05:30] with baby Kalee with the book bag on and said that she was gonna go, you know, drop her off at a friend's house while she was working and never came home. Yeah.
Brooke: But in that time she was missing, she was going out all the time she was [00:05:45] partying. There was no signs of any sort of fear or remorse or what you would expect would be a typical reaction from a mother whose child was missing.
Jamie: Yeah.
Brooke: So that raises some question marks there.
Jamie: I [00:06:00] mean, she got a what, a tattoo during that time. Mm-Hmm. You know, beautiful life or something. She was, I mean, she was a mess.
Brooke: Mm-Hmm. Let me ask a question. Faith, would you get a tattoo if you had a missing child during that time? I'm gonna say no. Okay.
Jamie: Who has [00:06:15] time to get a tattoo at that time?
You're supposed to be, I'd be busy crying. I know she was a mess though. But I mean, she obviously had the little girl in her, in the trunk of the car. Left the car somewhere. I thought what was interesting is she never really came forward, ever and was looking for her. [00:06:30] She got in trouble, I guess she was at a house drinking or something. Mm-Hmm. With some friends and police got called and then her parents got involved and then it was all of a sudden, I haven't seen my child.
Brooke: But that's not the story that Casey [00:06:45] told the cops.
No,
Jamie: no.
Brooke: She had a lot of different stories that she told.
Jamie: So Casey's a liar, pathological she, that is just what she did her entire being [00:07:00] was really just deceiving people and not really telling the truth and kind of picking bits and pieces of information and passing it off as truth. I was just a little upset with the investigators.
Why did we [00:07:15] listen to these lies for so long? I can't even believe that. So at one point they she was saying that she was working at Universal Studios. She hadn't really been working there for like two years. She claimed that she was an event coordinator she was doing things and [00:07:30] she's always gone because of all of these events.
Well, come to find out she hadn't worked there for two years and then she was simply the photographer for like the Hulk ride. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You know the person that's taking the pictures whenever you get off the when you're [00:07:45] screaming your head off. So that was her, what she was calling event planning.
But the whole time it's interesting taste, right? She was like, she was participating in events. I guess she was
Brooke: planning the perfect photo moment murder, I guess. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's, that's one of them. [00:08:00]
Jamie: Yeah. So she even went so far as to take the police officers to Universal Studios and like is walking through the hallways, waving at.
Each person, Hey, hey. And then when she gets [00:08:15] at the end, she's like, oh, you got me. I lied. I don't really work here. You know, so sorry. And just kind of like laughs it off. So it is very interesting that she was able to get away with this for so long. Why, why do [00:08:30] we, why didn't somebody, your opinion. Why didn't somebody say, I mean, what was going on?
I mean, I know she was somewhat believable, but then everything she said easily could be debunked.
Brooke: Yeah. Faith, do you wanna comment on
Faith: with [00:08:45] my experience in seeing, how law enforcement is, I would say that they probably were understaffed.
They probably had too many cases. Things probably fell through the cracks. There weren't consistencies amongst them. So then it was easier for her to have [00:09:00] inconsistencies and it go unchecked. But that could be untrue.
Jamie: But it seems like they interviewed her. Mm-Hmm. Pretty quickly. She didn't lawyer up immediately.
Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm.
Jamie: And she was just lying. Like if I were to sit down with somebody, as [00:09:15] an investigator , and have an interview and you tell me every person that. Nose of your behavior has now moved. Their phone numbers changed. You don't know the number off the top of your head.
You know, she had excuses [00:09:30] for every
Brooke: Mm-Hmm.
Jamie: Every little inconsistency. So I don't know.
Brooke: She's a storyteller. She's crazy. She needs a podcast. No, she does not need a podcast. But faith, I think you hit the nail on the head there about being understaffed. I actually used to [00:09:45] work as a crime analyst for a sheriff's office in Florida.
Not Orlando where Casey Anthony was. But yeah, it definitely is a tricky time right now to attract and retain incredible talent. So that's definitely part of it. I would also say. Philosopher [00:10:00] Brooks. Highly professional opinion here. You know, I think that in general as humans, we have this desire to see the best in people and believe the best in people.
Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm.
Brooke: Especially a young mother. We [00:10:15] as humans don't wanna think that someone could be capable of doing such horrible things to their own child, and yes. Casey was young, but in many ways she was still a kid herself. Mm-Hmm. Yes. Like, you know, 18, 19, you're still pretty much a kid even though you are [00:10:30] legally an adult.
Mm-Hmm. And I think the horror of that is simply a lot to wrap your mind around. Mm-Hmm. So we wanna believe the lies and we want to believe things being explained away because the truth is just so horrifying.
Faith: Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:45] It's a method of control, obviously. Yeah. 'cause if you can control it, if you can understand it, or if you, if.
Someone like that could kill a child then who couldn't kill a child. And so that brings the question fear for you, for those around you. [00:11:00] It's, yeah, definitely. Something I see in my work is kind of that control piece I bet of trying to find a way to make it make sense to you so that you feel safe.
Jamie: Yeah. And I mean, I don't know. [00:11:15] I, I want to feel the best for people, but I also, you know, recognize that we live in an ugly world. Mm-Hmm. Well, you've seen a
Brooke: thing or two in your line of work. In our line of work.
Jamie: I know. But, I haven't even seen the worst of it. I was talking to [00:11:30] somebody and they had done PI work, but they did stuff more with.
Homicide stuff. Multiple suicides and Sure. I forget what it's called when you, you know, murder suicide. Like Yes. And I, and then, you know, and then I think we don't deal with stuff like that. I [00:11:45] don't know if I'd be so gung ho to, you know, help these people if I knew that I was coming in on those type of scenes.
Mm-Hmm. All the time. Mm-Hmm. Okay, so back to Casey. Thoughts on her parents. Oh, a little bit about her parents. George Papa Jojo [00:12:00] and her mom, who was a helicopter parent for sure.
Brooke: To say the least. To say the least,
Jamie: yeah. And enabled this foolishness obviously her entire life. And it just became the way that their family [00:12:15] operated.
The, I guess it was the prosecution like pointed out that, you know, dad used to be a detective. Mm-Hmm. And wherever they were living because it was a dangerous job and his wife didn't really want him to do that. You know, he ended up leaving the [00:12:30] job. They moved to Florida with parents, I believe.
Mm-Hmm. And. You know, of course Casey at that time was like really young. Three, four or five-ish. And so you would think that [00:12:45] she is coming from a family that is quote unquote upstanding, right? Dad's an officer or a detective, and supposedly he moved up in the ranks pretty quickly.
Mm-hmm. So I guess he was good at what he did. He obviously, you know, cared. Mom was a [00:13:00] nurse,
Brooke: a professional caretaker, honestly. Yeah. And
Jamie: so she grew up, I think the brother was fine. There were no issues with him.
I don't even remember anything except for that. His name was Lee.
Brooke: The issue was Brother Lee. Yeah. Thank you Lee. Thank you for being
Jamie: [00:13:15] normal. And then Casey comes along and so the fact, I mean, what happened with the parents? Did she just.
Brooke: Yeah. So I recently watched the Netflix documentary
Jamie: Okay.
Called the
Brooke: Lie Detector Test. Okay. And so [00:13:30] they had the parents take a polygraph test to determine if they were actually telling the truth that they weren't covering things up for Casey. Faith, I'd love to hear your thoughts on the sexual abuse allegations.
Mm-hmm. Given your line of work. Mm-Hmm. But [00:13:45] that was primarily what George. The father what his questions on his polygraph were about. Mm-Hmm. Did he in fact sexually abuse either his own daughter or Kaylee, the granddaughter? Mm-Hmm. And I don't know, do you [00:14:00] want
Jamie: me to spoil the ending? Well, I was like, I read, I don't wanna hold it.
Just go ahead and go there. Yeah, go for it. Okay.
Brooke: Okay, so go ahead. They passed, they were telling the truth. They, of course they passed. They did not, not 'cause she killed the baby. Oh, of course. Okay. At the end of the documentary, [00:14:15] there was a retired FBI agent and he did comment his thoughts and he said that he actually watched video recordings of Casey Anthony's testimony and just interviews later on.
And he said that he was pretty confident that [00:14:30] things were not adding up and that he did not trust what she said. Coming from, yeah. Someone who worked for the FBI, I think that's pretty solid determination. I mean, and
Jamie: And again, I don't know which podcast everyone had like two or three episodes, but one of the guys was saying that [00:14:45] when they went, like the day of the, well, the first day of the defense presenting his case.
Yeah. He came into the family and was like, look, George, I'm gonna ready throw you under the bus.
Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm. Nice. Sit
Jamie: tight. [00:15:00] You know, you know, obviously he wasn't gonna say, I'm gonna say that you sexually abused your child and grandchild. Mm-Hmm. But that's supposedly how everything went down. I just think the amount of crazy love, you know, that [00:15:15] we have for our kids.
Now, I know y'all don't have children, you have children.
Joe Woolworth: No, no.
Jamie: But you have dogs Yes. And animals. Kittens. So like, you know, puppy. But you wanna do the best for your kids, right? Yeah. You want to, you know, even if they are. Not right all the time. [00:15:30] You still want to try to support them and be, but to, you know, the amount of enabling and Mm-Hmm.
I just don't know if I could have sat there or let my husband sit there and take that. And, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I guess at that point you do what you have to do [00:15:45] to win your case, it just pops out that, you know, grandpa jojo had molested Casey, I guess as a child.
Brooke: Mm-Hmm.
Jamie: And was doing the same to the Kaylee? To Kaylee, I dunno. Thoughts?
Brooke: [00:16:00] Yes. So in the documentary, they actually showed clips of what George was saying at the funeral, and he made some comments that were definitely. Spun in such a way to make him [00:16:15] seem very creepy. He commented on after Kaylee would play outside and she would be all sweaty and come back in and hug her.
He loved the smell of her sweat and he was saying that that's simply just a [00:16:30] grandfather's love for his granddaughter, Joe. Have you ever heard anybody say that they loved us? I mean, people say
Joe Woolworth: weird stuff at funerals.
Brooke: That's fair. That's fair. That's
Jamie: true. That's fair. Yeah.
Joe Woolworth: I gave my dad's eulogy and I'm pretty sure I said some dumb stuff.
Jamie: Oh goodness. I [00:16:45] gave my mom's, I don't even remember it at this point. I'm like, went up there. Maybe he black out. Yeah. Who knows what you said, right? I don't think
Brooke: the word sweat was involved though. But faith, what do you think?
Faith: Oh, about just the sexual abuse allegations in general
Brooke: and [00:17:00] how. Yeah. Damaging is that, if that's not actually what happened for women survivors and being believed, how does that affect them Who are telling the truth?
Faith: Yes. Okay. So this is the big topic. A common myth that [00:17:15] you kind of do hear about, like sexual abuse and sexual assault is that people do make it up, but statistically, actually, the amount of times that it's found to be not true is the same as it is.
Found to be not true for other crimes like stealing. Okay. Or that sort of thing. [00:17:30] Yeah. So sexual assault allegations are typically not a higher rank, that's just a myth. Mm-Hmm. Because of kind of everything that falls into sexual abuse allegations, typically. Who the perpetrators are.
Typically who the victims are. Mm-Hmm. I can't. Sit here and say that she's lying. I can't [00:17:45] obviously sit here and say that you know, there may have been reasons for her to say this. Mm-Hmm. In my line of work, I've kind of just decided I'm not the juror, I'm not the right, the judge. So it's not my place to say [00:18:00] if she did experience sexual abuse as a child, that could explain a lot of the behaviors we're seeing.
I don't, cannot and do not want to diagnose.
I'm seeing a lot of borderline type behaviors. Mm-hmm. Borderline personality kind of the impulsivity, the kind of [00:18:15] importance on self the tattoo in the middle of her daughter.
Just little things like that. And typically with borderline, you'll kind of see that stems from. Some sort of trauma in childhood, and it could have been sexual abuse, it could have been something different. I don't [00:18:30] know. But could she not just be
Jamie: bad, bad kid? And, and I mean, maybe I, you know, I feel like it's, it's tough, right?
Because you can't, there's no proof. Yeah, yeah. Like we've worked [00:18:45] cases where, you know. You're asked your opinion.
Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm.
Jamie: But I can't tell you. I mean, sexual abuse, there is a lot of times no evidence. Mm-Hmm. You know, if it, it's most times, yeah. And if, and if it's been a long time, then you know, you never find out.
Mm-Hmm. I mean, [00:19:00] and so it is based on the character I guess, of the people. Yeah. Usually goes to a he said, she said. So Casey got pregnant. She was in high school at the [00:19:15] time getting ready to graduate. Parents found out supposedly the day before graduation that she was not going to graduate because she obviously hadn't done all her things and her response was.
[00:19:30] Everybody else messed up my schedule and so I wasn't able to get to class and I wasn't able to do that. And so their response not, you know, well, let's address this now and let's go get a GED or Mm-Hmm. Or I mean something. Mm-Hmm. [00:19:45] But their response was, we'll just tell everybody that you graduated anyways.
Still throw a party, let you get, you know, graduation gifts. Yeah. Pretend that you don't look pregnant. It [00:20:00] just doesn't add up, you know? I'll be devil's advocate on this one. Yeah. So
Brooke: Jamie, when going back to when you said, could she just be bad?
So talking about cluster B personality disorders. Are you seeing faith? Any [00:20:15] signs consistent of, for example, antisocial personality disorder like sociopathy here?
Jamie: Can you break down sociopathy? For those in the room that, dunno what that is.
Faith: . Sure.
Brooke: So I think in society for the [00:20:30] layman people sociopaths are basically who do things without.
Remorse. Mm-Hmm. They're very focused on themselves and their needs and they don't necessarily feel bad if they hurt somebody in the way [00:20:45] of pursuing their own goals, whatever those may be. Mm-Hmm. And they, from my understanding and from what I've read like the book, the Sociopath Next Door Mm-Hmm.
They can tend to be a bit impulsive and they're kind of looking for the next [00:21:00] thrill. Um Mm-Hmm. And their emotions are typically. Those of anger. Mm-Hmm. Or just pretty neutral.
Faith: Mm-Hmm. So from my standpoint, I feel like killing your child [00:21:15] is beyond just being a . Bad girl.
Jamie: Sure.
Faith: I think that that, that's extreme. I mean, this
Jamie: is a child achieve you stopped partying.
Faith: Like if she was doing everything else but didn't kill the child. Okay. But that is, to me, that kind of pushes it to the, okay, there's something, something going on deeper [00:21:30] going on.
The thing about antisocial, I don't know if you could classify her more so on that, just because there doesn't seem to be repeated behaviors after this. That we know of, right? Mm-Hmm. So I feel like with antisocial, you kind of see a little bit more [00:21:45] of repeated behaviors that go that far.
Jamie: Okay. But could they have been repeated behaviors prior to this happening?
You know? 'cause
Faith: maybe,
Jamie: I mean, I, the, she didn't just start this behavior. Oh, no, no. You know, so maybe it wasn't on this scale, [00:22:00] obviously, as taking a child's life, but.
Brooke: The lying seems to be a pattern, right? With the graduation, right?
Jamie: Mm-Hmm.
Brooke: But that also could fall borderline.
Jamie: Okay.
Faith: Yeah.
Jamie: Okay what happens next?
So then Casey goes and she gives a terrible [00:22:15] interview nightmare for anybody defense and told a bunch of lies brought the police. Through all of these hoops and they tried to, you know, confront her but of course they didn't really have any proof.
Brooke: Let's talk about the imaginary [00:22:30] nanny. What was up like that? Zaida? Yes. Yes. Oh, Zani
Jamie: Z.
Brooke: There you go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-Hmm. So
Jamie: one of the podcasts houses to brought up the fact that, I guess at that time she and a couple of her friends were doing [00:22:45] Xanax. Mm-Hmm. And so the nanny Zani.
Joe Woolworth: Mm-hmm.
Jamie: Was. She would sit Kaylee somewhere, give her an iPad, or I don't know what they had in oh 8, 9, 10, but whatever they give the babies at that time and you know, she would [00:23:00] just kind of watch herself while Mm-Hmm.
You know, Casey was kind of doing her thing. Mm-Hmm. Is the nanny's nanny. And then I saw something about the, where they found her body. One [00:23:15] neighbor was named. I think it was Aida Zda.
Joe Woolworth: Okay.
Jamie: And then the neighbor on the other side was like Rodriguez or Gonzalez. Oh, okay. Whatever. So it was like a combination of the two people that, which was goodness weird because like why would you like look that up, right? And then make [00:23:30] that up? Or is it she just a great liar and she just.
Picked, you know, 'cause at first she was like, Zenda Gonzalez. And then she was like, but she doesn't go by just Gonzalez. They was looking for her by Gonzalez instead of, you know, Gonzales Rodriguez or whatever, you know, whatever the two [00:23:45] last names were. And I'm like, she has got every excuse in the book.
Mm-Hmm. I'm like, girl, you killed a baby. then they find Baby Kaylee's body, they, they find the body the, there's a lot of decomp.
Brooke: Yeah.
Jamie: There's not a lot left. There's duct tape. Looks like the baby, you know, has [00:24:00] been suffocated. Chloroform was involved. Mm-Hmm.
There was a, a Gatorade bottle with chloroform near the baby when
Brooke: they did actually forensic air testing. Yeah. In the trunk of her car, they found abnormally high levels of [00:24:15] chloroform, and when they did a digital forensic investigation, they found searches on Google for chloroform. Yeah. And the mother.
Certainly tried to cover that up saying that she was actually trying to look up chlorophyll because the dog was trying to eat grass in the [00:24:30] backyard. That's what I'm saying, the enabling. Mm-Hmm.
Jamie: I mean it's like a drug addict almost like you just still provide enough for so that they can continue this foolishness.
Wasn't there also like a test where there was like, I guess they could test the gases in the air and there was like decomp in the [00:24:45] trunk? Yes. Mm-Hmm. But then the defense was able to kind of dismiss that. I the prosecution didn't, they didn't go hard enough, I guess, on her. And there was some holes in it. Mm-Hmm. So the, the, the defense came up [00:25:00] with. Fact that the family was covering up Kaylee's murder. Mm-Hmm. That she had actually like wandered into the pool.
Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm.
Jamie: Drowned. And they, you know, hid the body basically so that [00:25:15] Casey wouldn't get in trouble, I guess, for being negligent, not paying attention to the child.
Brooke: The original lie was that George Casey's father actually came to her holding the dead waterlogged child and showed her
Jamie: Yeah. [00:25:30]
Brooke: And that. According to the,
Jamie: I mean, and, and your mom's a nurse and you're not calling 9 1 1. Exactly.
Brooke: Yeah. I mean,
Jamie: ev every, and your, and your dad's an ex officer. Nobody, and he didn't call nine one and nobody called doesn't know CPR.
Yeah. Nothing.
Brooke: Yeah. But yeah, the polygraph said [00:25:45] that he was telling the truth when he said that never happened.
Jamie: Well, I don't believe it happened. Yeah. I think that there was like the, the ladder or something was in the pool. This was like their proof that, you know, she could have gotten in the pool, but prior to that they talked [00:26:00] about, how the grandparents had just really done everything they could to childproof the home so that,
she wouldn't fall into the pool. They weren't even allowed to have the ladder in the pool. Mm-Hmm. So that, that think type of things wouldn't happen. So [00:26:15] I don't know who lies, who was, who
Joe Woolworth: was saying that happened and that didn't happen. 'cause if, if you're a, like a liar, that would be the safest lie.
Like manslaughter the child died in the pool.
Jamie: Well, that, that is, this is what they came up with as a defense. But then I guess all of the behavior in [00:26:30] terms of like why she didn't respond like a normal mother would. Mm-Hmm. Was because of the sexual abuse. So they had to, I mean, I forget the attorney's name, but he was very crafty.
Mm-Hmm. [00:26:45] And was very personable with the jury. And he just kind of made the prosecution look like. Whatever. And we have a totally logical story here. He was good at what he did. [00:27:00] Yeah. And, and you need to find her not guilty because of this.
Brooke: I just don't see how Duct tape is involved with an accidental drowning.
Joe Woolworth: Or chloroform.
Jamie: Exactly. Well, the chlorine in the pool.
Joe Woolworth: If you, if your [00:27:15] child accidentally drowns in the pool, you have a funeral, like normal people, you know?
Jamie: Yeah. You
Joe Woolworth: don't hide
Jamie: the
Joe Woolworth: kid.
Jamie: You don't have to. You can act It was a true accident, but that's because it wasn't an accident.
Joe Woolworth: Yeah.
Jamie: So what then happens? So then she goes to [00:27:30] trial. Mm-Hmm. They you know, everybody presents their side. She is found not guilty.
Brooke: The only thing she's convicted of is lying four counts of providing false information to law enforcement. That's it. That is terrible. [00:27:45] Mm-Hmm.
Jamie: That is terrible.
Faith: I wonder why they didn't seek a tampering with evidence charge with her.
Jamie: That's a good
Faith: question.
Jamie: What for what?
Faith: Well, she like withheld the [00:28:00] body, which is evidence for however long.
Jamie: There was no real response to like, what happened to, they just saying that the baby drowned. He helped her hide the baby. So I guess dad is the, the reason the baby was wrapped up in the blanket and put, you know, up the [00:28:15] street.
Faith: So dad tampered with evidence.
Jamie: Yes.
Faith: But they chose not to charge him.
Jamie: And then I heard something. So the guy who found the body, I guess he. Used a stick or something.
Joe Woolworth: Mm.
Jamie: And picked up the skull.
Joe Woolworth: Mm.
Jamie: The scene was disrupted. Mm-Hmm. And [00:28:30] so he was trying to say that you don't know that the tape was actually on the, the head.
Maybe the tape was just in the bag or maybe it got stuck to, you know, we don't really know what happened because the scene was disturbed. So imagine
Brooke: walking by and you just see a man with a [00:28:45] skull and a stick. I hope nobody was taking a little walk in the woods at that moment because that would be, whew.
I never walk in the woods again. I've seen enough.
Jamie: I don't wanna walk in the woods now. Oh, and I think if they were, that was swampy down there too, so I'm sure it was gross.
Brooke: Alligators and all that. [00:29:00] Yeah.
Jamie: Florida. So what else? The public's reaction the world was involved in this case, right?
Yes. They there was widespread media coverage. Opinions were highly polarized.
Brooke: The father was getting death threats, voicemails of death threats. I
Jamie: know. Poor, [00:29:15] poor uncle Jojo grandpa Jojo. That's rough. It's a rough
Brooke: life. They're still affected by it today.
Jamie: Well, and that also leads you to see that she's guilty because if this was, if this really happened and he covered up the body and all that, why would they [00:29:30] not still be closed?
Brooke: Exactly.
Jamie: Why would she, I mean, they, they have nothing to do with the brother, the parents, like, she's just kind of like off on her own.
Joe Woolworth: Well, she accused the brother of molesting her as well. [00:29:45] That's right.
Jamie: So everybody molested you.
Joe Woolworth: She might've, she might've burdened that bridge
Jamie: yeah. And, and we felt like Lee was a nice guy. And I mean, I thought we thanked
Brooke: him. We thanked him for being
Jamie: normal. I know. And so we see,
Brooke: oh no,
Jamie: she's a liar. Oh no. [00:30:00] They showed the video of when the parents met with Casey for the first time in the jail.
And that was an interesting watch so. There's one part where the mom is [00:30:15] talking to her and like asking her questions about, you know, you know, oh, excuse me. No, I think it was the grand, the dad, he was, you know, saying how much he missed them and that he wanted, you know, to see their things around the house and he just missed them being there.
Yeah. [00:30:30] And you know, she's like, you were the best grandpa. You know, she had the best. From you guys, you know, and then two times she kind of corrects herself and she's like, you still are, you know, the best grandpa. And the [00:30:45] mom, you know, 'cause you hear all this stuff and so you don't get to see, but the mother was visibly like.
Oh God, she killed her.
Joe Woolworth: Mm-Hmm.
Jamie: Because she kinda like broke down a little bit and she was just like looking at [00:31:00] her and I think a couple times she asked her, you know, look into the camera like, I need to see your eyes. Mm-Hmm. So it's like she knew when, like her daughter had something going on that wasn't, you know, quite um Right.
And it was very possible that she had [00:31:15] really done something. That was one of the polygraph
Joe Woolworth: questions. So looking@people.com, she was this mom, Cindy said she believes her daughter 100% knows what happened to Kaylee. And she said, yes, I believe a hundred percent. And I kept hoping that she would confess.
[00:31:30] Yeah. So that was under, so she definitely believes
Jamie: that. Yeah. I mean, and the whole time she was like, you know, are, are we gonna be able to find her? Are we gonna be able to find her Casey? And she's like, you know, I really hope so. I really hope so. Like,
Brooke: [00:31:45] yeah.
Jamie: We all really hoped, so I know that's, that is bad.
Brooke: [00:32:00] [00:32:15] [00:32:30] I have a question for faith. Yes. So going back to what we were talking about with mental health and mental illness and the last thing that I would want any of our listeners to feel is, oh, if you struggle with mental health, mental [00:32:45] illness, then therefore, you know you're gonna go be a murderous parent too.
Faith: Yeah. So I think it's important to note the statistic that on average, one in four Americans struggles with mental health, right? They have some sort of mental illness. Mm-Hmm. And I would [00:33:00] argue it's more than that now, especially, oh yeah.
Post pandemic. Mm-hmm. And especially because, you know, those statistics are usually based on self reports, and we have lots of people, there's still a lot of stigma around mental health. So I think it's important to recognize how. [00:33:15] Prevalent it is to have mental health issues. I think that my thing would be a reminder that just because you have a mental health disorder, even if it is something like a personality [00:33:30] disorder or even, you know, deeper into some of those like cluster bs with the antisocial and stuff, narcissism we talked about, I think.
Making sure you're taking care of yourself and you know, deciding [00:33:45] for you what, what can you do to get yourself most mentally healthy so then you can raise a mentally healthy child. And Yes. And in no way should someone who's not, you know, a hundred percent, first of all, we're no one is a hundred percent [00:34:00] mentally well.
I will put that out there. No one is, and we all, even if you think you are right, and we all experience anxiety, not even Lee the brother. Right, like no one is. So I think just making sure that, you know, you're not, passing on any, you know, intergenerational trauma, not passing on [00:34:15] any unnecessary trauma, but also recognizing part of being human is having things like this, like mental health Mm-Hmm.
I wouldn't tell someone who maybe has pots, maybe you shouldn't have a kid, right? Mm-Hmm. Because kids. Might get pots or maybe you [00:34:30] having pots might not lead to the best life for them. No, that's, that's not how that works. Mm-Hmm. So I think we need to look at mental, you know, health the same way and Absolutely if we bar people who had mental health from not having kids, we probably wouldn't have a lot of kids and we probably wouldn't have a lot of empathetic kids either [00:34:45] because it's kind of hard to be able to relate unless you've been there. Just because you have a mental health. Issues. Doesn't mean you're gonna kill your child.
Brooke: I just thank you for putting that out out there and
Faith: clarifying.
Yes. I think that if you kill your child, you have mental health issues, but not necessarily that if you [00:35:00] have them you will.
Brooke: Exactly.
Faith: And
Brooke: mental wellness is a spectrum too.
Faith: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
Jamie: Yeah. 'cause everybody's self-care looks different, right? Yes. Some people are big into therapy, some people not so much and they have to do exercise and, make sure they have [00:35:15] routine in their lives
Faith: I'm a big advocate of journaling and I would also argue if you're someone who's worried about that, then you're probably not the person who's going to end up doing that. Like, if that's even like a thought, it's probably, I don't think anyone that mentally [00:35:30] unwell would even have the thought maybe, maybe I shouldn't have kids.
Yes. Self-awareness. Yeah.
Jamie: There's not a lot of that happening in these, the world to stage. We definitely need more self-awareness. 100%.
Brooke: Faith something you mentioned was about working through generational trauma.
[00:35:45] Mm-Hmm. How would, for example, a new mother or an expecting mother, how could that mother
Faith: heal that work through that? I'm biased. A therapist. Therapist, you know, processing that trauma, going through, figuring out, you know, how are the patterns of things that have [00:36:00] happened in your life showing up today, what are these core beliefs you're still hanging on to?
What are these points you can't keep powerful healing from? So I think honestly, work with a therapist would be a great start.
Jamie: Absolutely. [00:36:15] There's all kinds of versions of therapy now. Yeah. You can virtual, be in person, telehealth,
Brooke: faith, you do telehealth. Mm-Hmm. Yeah, I do. Mm-Hmm.
Jamie: So get you a therapist. If you don't have one, get you one anyways.
Brooke: Oh yeah. It's
Jamie: like going to the gym.
Brooke: Yeah. You know?
Jamie: Yeah. You [00:36:30] gotta work
Faith: out your physical, you gotta work out your mental,
Jamie: Yeah.
Faith: Yeah. I have a therapist and I'm, and I am a therapist
Brooke: yes. Love that. Love that, that important. And I'm sure you
Jamie: need one, right?
Oh yeah. I mean, there's just a lot.
Faith: Yeah. Well it's my therapist made a joke with me once. She's like, you kind of make me feel [00:36:45] like an emotional prostitute because I told her, I was like, I prefer to pay you and get an hour of your time. So it's reciprocal. There you go. That's how I view it. I feel good about it rather than going, talking to a friend because it's different.
Jamie: Sure. Mm-Hmm. You are like, do they feel like hearing me [00:37:00] today? And they may not feel like hearing all of that. Well, I'm paying
Faith: you yeah, exactly. It's cool now,
Jamie: How does your job work? Tell me how, like somebody who was going through something and they need to reach out for your services. How does that work?
Faith: So I work with a private [00:37:15] practice and usually what'll happen, they'll reach out to her office and my clinical director will kind of assign them to me based on what their problem is.
We all kind of have our certain areas that we work in.
Jamie: Okay.
Faith: We're a trauma based practice, but my work usually kind of falls within sexual violence. I see [00:37:30] a lot more women than men. Okay. Not to say that, you know, I haven't seen men who've experienced any sort of sexual violence. But that's, you know, a little bit more of the population that I see and I see a lot of college students.
And something I have realized is even if I don't [00:37:45] have someone come in for sexual violence. Unfortunately, almost always ends up coming out that there was some component of sexual violence that occurred at some point.
Jamie: Is that like, that's all of the cases main usually.
Faith: Mostly, yeah. There's some component of that, some aren't.
Some, you know, can just be [00:38:00] like adjustment issues anxiety, depression that sort of thing. But. So that's kind of the group I see. And based on, you know, kind of what we're working through, we'll meet weekly, we'll meet twice a month. Eventually goal is to get in a maintenance stage where we're meeting once a month and then less and less and [00:38:15] less.
Joe Woolworth: Okay.
Faith: Figuring out what they need and making a treatment plan based on that.
Jamie: How did you get into this kind of work?
Faith: I took a psychology class in high school and I said, huh, that was interesting. And then I went to college and I was a pre-pharmacy major.
Okay. And then I had a [00:38:30] lot of mental health issues on my own. I ended up seeing a therapist in college. Okay. And I was like, you know what? This kind of seems like a cool job. And then I just kind of happened to Okay. Find myself in this path. Yes. Okay.
Jamie: So let's talk about PIs really quick.
Yeah. Let's chat at some [00:38:45] point. Our girl, Casey, decided that she wanted to be a pi.
Brooke: Yes.
Jamie: How did that go, Brooke? It
Brooke: didn't. So because she wanted to start her own PI agency and naturally given her criminal history, that got shut down real [00:39:00] quick. Mm-Hmm. So we, we strive to be ethical in our field,
Jamie: right?
I mean, that is the goal. You know, that's somewhat. Comforting Yes. To know that, , she couldn't lie her way out of that situation and get a PI [00:39:15] license. Mm-Hmm. And be out here snooping, , with no ethics behind her. , a lot of times, , we have, we remind people that we do have a license through North Carolina Department of Insurance and we.
Have to work a certain number of hours [00:39:30] so that we are comfortable and confident in what it is that we're doing, that we know how to help people properly. When we get certain cases, if they are not on the up and up, like, you know, people have things going on in life, [00:39:45] no judgment at all.
But if your, if, if your motives seem a little bit jaded and your purpose is to. I don't know. I didn't wanna say get back, but you just wanna secret revenge, [00:40:00] call it what it is. Yeah. She wanna know revenge, right? I dunno what you're gonna do. Yeah. You know, if we give you some information that you don't need.
We really pride ourselves on making sure that we are, . Factual, and, and taking care of our clients and taking care of the people that they're looking for. We don't want to expose [00:40:15] somebody or put somebody in harm's way. Or even draw attention unnecessarily to somebody because in their mind they feel like there's something going on that potentially is not going on.
No fake nannies here, right? [00:40:30] Only real ones.
You know, people get themselves in all kinds of drama. They start dealing with folks and they're not quite sure who they really are, you know, give us a call. We will, do our best to figure out if this person [00:40:45] is the person that you think that they are.
That's right. And then at that point, you know, give you the opportunity to decide how you wanna handle that moving forward. We do a lot of counseling ourselves. I am not a therapist, but sometimes I feel like a therapist because everybody [00:41:00] has a story. Oh, yes. And they, you know, oh. And it's like, so how did, so let me ask you this.
Do you have situations with people where their stories are super inconsistent? Like, what if Casey came to you, you know what I'm saying? And [00:41:15] had her story.
Brooke: Mm-Hmm.
Jamie: And just how she was, how do you handle those type of people?
Brooke: Yeah. How would you navigate that? Because I remember before you were saying that. Your role isn't judged. Mm-Hmm. It's more to create a safe space. Mm-Hmm. To listen to people. Mm-Hmm. So how would you navigate [00:41:30] that?
Faith: Well first I think it's important to note that, you know, not even just talking about like Casey, but a, another common thing you see with trauma is.
Really kind of like mixed up stories because of how trauma gets processed in the brain. Mm-Hmm. And [00:41:45] how that, you know, forms to the long-term memory. It kind of is kind of like pulling clouds from the sky. Mm-Hmm. People say, rather than like a linear timeframe. Sure. So you do see actually a lot of inconsistencies whether it was like, oh, this happened first or this happened second.
I [00:42:00] think it's important, and I've had people ask me this before, you know, like. Well, why don't you have people around the person you're seeing tell you their side, right? Because maybe they're lying. I think it's important to recognize that your perception is your reality. Yes. [00:42:15] So it interesting, again, not my job to find the truth.
My job is to help you with your reality
Jamie: and. Opposite of that, our job is to find the truth. Yeah. Because we do have people that come to us with inconsistencies. Mm-Hmm. And we have to [00:42:30] determine Mm-Hmm. Is this something that we need to help you with? Mm-Hmm. Because just like before, if we put somebody in harm's way, that's not the goal.
We do promote, well who are these people that you're talking about? And can we confirm any of this information? They're not coming to me. [00:42:45] To help them process. They're coming to me, to us to help them figure out what's going on in their space.
So a lot of times we're put in a position where we have to determine like, are you actually experiencing what you're [00:43:00] experiencing? Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. And is this something that we can help you with? Mm-Hmm. And sometimes that's a tough let down for them when they can't get.
Sure. You know what they think they came for. Mm-Hmm. But at the end of the day, for me, I want to make sure that we are doing [00:43:15] right by the right thing to do. And that we are of help Yeah. To people that need it. So
Brooke: yeah. In the private investigations field, people come to us with their truth.
Lower case T and our job is to discover the truth. Capital T [00:43:30] for all parties involved. Okay. So
Jamie: where can we find you Faith?
Faith: So you can find me. I work with rape counselors of East Alabama. This is. Well, it's in Alabama. I work remote. That's why I'm in [00:43:45] Carolina right now. But they have social media, right?
They do. They do. I, yes. Instagram at rape counselors of East Alabama. Okay. Website rape counselors of east alabama.com. If you need any sort of resources that you cannot find on there, you're out of the counties that we serve. Email me [00:44:00] RCA services at Gmail. Be more than happy to help you find resources in your area.
Find support groups, find counseling. Find what you need. You can also find a podcast for rape counselors in East Alabama that I do called Yes Means Yes Podcast. This is specifically with sexual violence [00:44:15] topics, so looking at, you know, sexual violence and intimacy afterwards, sexual violence and law enforcement. Just did a podcast episode on Taylor Swift and rape culture in the media, and so all that.
All that kind of stuff. If you wanna check us out, we're on Spotify, I'll be, listen Spotify listening to that.
Brooke: We love some Taylors, [00:44:30]
Faith: apple, all the podcast places. That's where you should be able to find us.
Jamie: Nice. Awesome. Love it. And where can they find us, Brooke?
Brooke: They can find us at the sleuth pod on X and [00:44:45] on Instagram. Nice. And we have a website, blackman pi.com.
Jamie: Dot com? Yes. What's it, so we are also doing some networking events, so you can check us out if you're in the Raleigh area.
Check us out on Eventbrite. We are in the North Hills area, if you'd [00:45:00] like to come and join us, faith, we'd love to have you. Yeah, no, for sure. See you there. Again, super excited to just be back in the podcast. I. Feels great.
It's it's exciting. I think the nerves are a little better now. Yes. At first I was like [00:45:15] shaking them out. Worry. Yes. This was a very interesting story. I'm super excited for the next episode. If you really want to know Blackman Detective Services is who you need to call. We do do a consultation over the phone so we can figure out how we [00:45:30] can help you, if we can help you, if we need to be referring you to Faith instead of, you know, coming to us.
We are just here to, give everybody a heads up through our experience, what's going on, you know, in our area, in the world, and just [00:45:45] kind of get your mind thinking about all of this. Interesting all these interesting people that are out here. So
Brooke: all things investigative,
Jamie: right?
Brooke: Mm-Hmm.
I don't know. See y'all later. Yeah, see ya next time. Bye bye.
Faith: Thanks for having me. Yes, thanks for being here.
[00:46:00]