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The Hot Dish delves into the most pressing issues facing rural America. Hosts Heidi and Joel Heitkamp speak with policymakers, advocates and everyday Americans living across rural America about what's happening across the heartland and what should be done to make life better for rural America.ct's The Hot Dish, former U.S. Senator Heidi Heitkamp serves up insight into issues affecting rural Americans.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Welcome to The Hot Dish, comfort food for Rural America. I'm Heidi Heitkamp.
Joel Heitkamp:
And I'm her baby brother, Joel Heitkamp.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Oh, for God's sakes. Do we... Like baby brother? You look so much older than me. Can we just forget the age thing? Can we just do that?
Joel Heitkamp:
Well, plastic surgery can do a lot, but let's rock and roll.
Heidi Heitkamp:
I wish. I wish. Listen, I'm really excited about this episode of The Hot Dish. We're going to hear from a good friend of mine, the former governor of the great state of Montana, Steve Bullock. He and I had the honor of working together actually in a movie. You know how we always say politics is Hollywood for ugly people? Well, Steve and I got to bridge that gap. Not sure we made the beautiful people list, but we definitely were involved in a project that we think has huge significance and importance. So we're going to talk a little bit about our new movie, War Games. Then Joel and I will talk about what's happening in Rural America and how Rural America is looking at really significant national issues of the day. Join in, listen. We hope that you agree, disagree. We hope that this conversation generates a conversation in your house, and I hope that when you listen to me and Joel, you realize that I am the smarter, better looking, maybe not younger sibling.
Joel Heitkamp:
Well, if that was the case, then you'd be better at P-Knuckle. But let me just say this, The Hot Dish is meant to be a conversation like we have in the rural area. The Hot Dish is meant to be the same as if you pulled up to any small town cafe, and on the special board, it said, "Hot beef." I mean, that's the whole thing of what The Hot Dish is about. It's about people getting together and just talking about the issues of the day, but talking about those issues in a way where it isn't condescending, it isn't done in a way like, "I bet you didn't know this," it's done in a way where I think we're going to bring things to the table that are on your mind.
Heidi Heitkamp:
We hope that for a lot of our listeners who don't live in places where we live, they understand that the message that we're always trying to send is, yeah, there may be some differences, but we're concerned about the same things in Rural America that urban or suburban America is concerned about, and people there have a lot of opinions, a lot of opinions that are worth listening to. So thanks, Joel, for joining me to have those discussions.
Joel Heitkamp:
There's way more things that we agree on and way more things that we have in common.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Absolutely. Stay tuned for more of that later in the show. But first, I want you to meet Michael Hansen. Michael is the president and CEO of Columbus Community Hospital in Columbus, Nebraska. That hospital is a community-owned, not-for-profit Hospital with guess what, over 800 employees and a $207 million budget. He's doing some truly amazing things for the health of that community from expanding access to mental health services to ensuring fitness and wellness are integrated in the local healthcare system.
Michael Hansen:
So as far as my career, it began 42 years ago. I was going to LSU and playing baseball, and I took a part-time job at night in a hospital. I worked in environmental services and my job was to do the terminal cleaning for the ORs and then also the OB delivery rooms and things like that. As I graduated in 1987, my boss asked me would I like to be a director of environmental services? I said, "Yes." So he promptly sent me to Los Angeles, California. So my first hospital as a director of environmental services was at Orthopedic Hospital in downtown LA. I worked there for about eight years and had responsibility for the entire LA region. Then I had my first opportunity to become a CEO in 2005. So I worked with Mercy and we managed critical access hospitals in Iowa and Nebraska. Then in 2009, I had the opportunity to come to Columbus and the vision that the board had at that time was to really expand a small community hospital into a large, regional, referral-type hospital.
So that's what I've worked on for the past 14 years, and we've more than accomplished that vision. We're a very strong community hospital that's independent, and there's not too many of those around the country anymore. There's about 5,000 hospitals across the country, and most of them are critical access hospitals. Very small hospitals, 25 beds are less. Basically, those are in rural areas. What they do is really stabilize patients and then ship them to a higher level of care like Columbus Community Hospital. So we're that tweener hospital where we're a large facility that does pretty much everything. We don't get into the big cases in cardiology. We don't get into brain surgery and transplants and things like that, but we do pretty much everything else. So our job is to really serve a large region. We're a full service acute care hospital, so we provide pretty much everything in terms of services. But one of the things I'm really proud of here is our behavioral health services. When I got here in 2009, it was a black hole and we really didn't have a lot of behavioral health services.
So in the last 14 years that I've been here, we've added an outpatient psychiatric clinic. We have an inpatient geriatric psych clinic, and we're continuing to expand our behavioral health services. Then another service line that we're very proud of is our OB services. We deliver a lot of babies, about 700 babies a year, and a lot of those babies are Medicaid patients. If Medicaid reimbursement doesn't increase, that would be a service line that we would look at discontinuing. Those people would have to travel to the bigger cities like Omaha, Lincoln here in Nebraska. Hospitals like Columbus Community Hospital play a critical role in providing patients in rural communities with access to high quality care close to home. I'm proud that Columbus Community Hospital has been recognized as one of the top 100 rural hospitals in the nation for the high quality care that we provide. Even as Columbus Community Hospital succeeds, there's a lot of other rural hospitals across the country that are facing serious challenges. Just specifically here in Nebraska, about 51% of our hospitals are in negative margins currently.
So Medicare and Medicaid does not cover our costs, so we lose money on every Medicare and Medicaid patient that walks through our doors. So traditionally, what hospitals have to do is cost shift that to commercial payers. So we make it up on the commercial side, and so that's how we survive. So if the government would pay more of their fair share in terms of reimbursement, then what we could do is lower our cost to everyone so that we don't have to have that cost shift. Historically, low Medicare reimbursements makes it very difficult for hospitals and physicians to deliver on their mission to provide high quality care to the patients we are counting on. The policies being debated in Washington could have a negative consequence for rural communities and access to care. Without adequate reimbursement for their services, some hospitals may find it difficult to maintain their range of service offerings or, in some situations, keep their doors open at all. For example, here at Columbus Community Hospital, in 2017, we had a margin of about 14% operating margin. That has dwindled over the years.
Part of that is due to the pandemic, and part of that is due to the economy and rising costs for supplies, equipment, and labor. On average, our costs went up about 18 to 20%, but when reimbursement rates are only going up three or 4%, our margins are very thin. Right now, we are a very strong hospital financially, and like I said, we're struggling to make a margin right now. So there's only two levers that we can really pull. One is containing our costs, which we do very well, and the other is trying to advocate for more reimbursement. So in terms of the government, we need to sustain the Medicare payments that we're getting and get some decent increases in Medicare and Medicaid payments. If that doesn't happen, then we're going to start to look at what we can do to cut services, programs and things like that. That would not be good for the healthcare of our country.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Well, today on The Hot Dish, we have a real treat. One of my favorite governors of all time, Steve Bullock, is here with me. Steve and I, by way of introduction, we actually got to know each other when Steve was the attorney general of Montana and continuing a lot of the work that we started in our cohort as attorneys general being really the people's lawyer, but taking that experience and becoming governor of Montana and leading the state of Montana in ways that meet the needs and this distinct culture of Montana, but yet advance the kinds of values that we share certainly in the Democratic Party.
But Steve and I are here today not to talk about bemoan, just the fact of what's happened in our states politically, but to talk about a project that we got involved in about a year and a half ago, not even a year-and-a-half ago, about a year ago when we were both invited to do some role playing on an exercise that was basically designed by the VoteBets Foundation to address the what ifs. What if January 6th happened again, only this time we couldn't rely on the military, that the military would play a much more active role in an insurrection? Steve played the president and I got to be his advisor, which sometimes I'm sure irritated him because I'm pretty bossy as an advisor. But I want to first ask you, governor, why did you do this project?
Steve Bullock:
Yeah, it did end up, I think, an incredible project to get to do. What got me to do it was two things. When they called me, they said, "Here are some of the people that are already signed up to do this," including you, senator, and it were both Democrats and Republicans that I had great respect for. So thought the company definitely demonstrates the seriousness of this, but also the underlying question. The underlying issue is that in these deeply divided times, we need to do everything we can to make sure that the rule of law, the norms, the principles are preserved. The idea behind this was that they were going to take this intense six-hour tabletop exercise and also prepare a report and say, "What are some of the weaknesses that we should be thinking about, not just, well, certainly in Washington DC, but all across the country as we approach the next election cycle?"
Heidi Heitkamp:
So when you were doing the exercise, I think you were probably like me, were basically doing this because number one, the caliber of people who were in the room who we could learn from, but also what would advance better preparation for a future event like January 6th. Well, lo and behold, little did we know, we were pretty serious people behind this documentary and they ended up producing a film called War Games, which was previewed in Sundance. So that was a unique experience for us.
Steve Bullock:
Who would think someone from North Dakota and someone from Montana would show up among the pretty people in Sundance, for sure?
Heidi Heitkamp:
But I also think it's a real opportunity to explore the themes. One of the things that I would say is that I think there is a difficulty that maybe some of these very abled filmmakers that they're having advancing this film into more of the mainstream. You might wonder why. I think it's because there is a lot of desire among the American public, certainly a segment of the American public, to forget what happened on January 6th.
Steve Bullock:
That's right, Heidi. It was interesting as some of the audience even said, "Well, this really makes me unsettled and uncomfortable." In part, that's the point and why this ought to get out a lot is that this isn't some fictional exercise. As we talk today, there was a poll, I guess it was now about a month ago that said a quarter of Americans think the FBI incited the January 6th attack, or you have the number three member of the House, Elise Stefanik, not even committing to next election, like saying, "We'll see if this is a legal and valid election," before she would actually give the winner credence or calling the January 6th, those that have been convicted, as hostages.
So it's so important because, sure, to have DC prepared, but for all of us to really take a deep look at where we are in this country. You and I have both been on the losing side of elections where we were damn disappointed. But that doesn't mean you undercut the foundation that's been here for 250 years. I think having that discussion about both where we are and the fragility of representative democracy, and it really depends on all of us, is a conversation we need to be having.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah, I think the other really difficult subject matter of this production is the discussion about radicalization in the military. We clearly believe that one of the reasons why January 6th was not successful as a pivotal event is the institution of the American military stood up for the rule of law, resisted any attempt to get involved in...
Steve Bullock:
That's right.
Heidi Heitkamp:
... civilian elections. In our exercise, that's not true. The military is no different than any other microcosm of the American public. There's been a fair amount of radicalization, and we had two, a lot of veterans involved in this effort, but two who played in the red cell, Steve and I were the blue cell...
Steve Bullock:
That's right.
Heidi Heitkamp:
... representing established government, trying to restore law and order and rule of law. Then the red cell was being disruptive. Both of those young men who operated in the red cell were disillusioned vets who are telling us, "Look, pay attention. This is not too far from reality based on our experience." So how much do you think that raising this issue has an effect on how people see this film?
Steve Bullock:
I do think it makes a lot of people uncomfortable. To step back, look, Montana has among the highest percentage of veterans per capita. Our service members deserve our highest praise and appreciation for what they've done for our country. But even if you look at nationally, we have 6% of the population of veterans, just about 20% of those that have been convicted for January 6th had served. That's not disparaging our service members, but it's saying because radicalization can occur in any sort of corner, we better be damn prepared for it, and we ought to look at the National Guard and the Reserves and we ought to look at law enforcement.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah, and I think the premise of the film is what if active military saw their allegiance more to the leaders of a paramilitary group above their oath of office to the Constitution and the commander in chief? If you get a chance to see the film, which I hope you will, there's moments where Steve, as the president, is called upon to make decisions that really will affect how the game is played. I want to make this point because I think it's significant, the fact that you and I both came out of law enforcement in our states and you, being governor, understanding the role of governors as the commander in chief of your Guard, I think this thing played out differently than what the game-makers thought it was going to play out. I am not sure that that would've happened that way had we been federal officials all along.
Steve Bullock:
No, I think that's right, Heidi. I mean, I think one of the, both having executive and state experience and understanding federalism, but actually having run things, you and I brought a different perspective. Now, I was encouraged at times when you had former military leaders saying, because part of this is about when do you use the US military against its own citizens was part of this movie, and some of them who said, "We want to serve and we want to serve our country, but we don't want to get involved in things like that."
Heidi Heitkamp:
I think one thing that we proved is that that should be used very sparingly and rarely, and the consistent message that you gave as our acting president was, "I can deal with today, but I've got to deal with tomorrow, and the decision I'm making today is going to affect how well I can govern tomorrow."
Steve Bullock:
You had two crises. One is the crisis of how do you maintain order in the capitol and around states and make sure that certification of elections can occur, and two is the enduring crises of what happens the day after.
Heidi Heitkamp:
It was interesting because we previewed this movie. We spent some time in New York with a pretty elite audience and then spent a lot of time in Sundance, in Utah talking about the film and talking about it. I don't know that we gave people who viewed it a lot of hope.
Steve Bullock:
From the producer's perspective, talking to them who aren't engaged in public policy on a regular basis, their hope and optimism that they came out from it is that if you have the right people around the table, it doesn't matter. Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, vegetarian, who cares about that? But if you have thoughtful people that are committed to governing and committed to our history and the 250 years of this constitutional republic, the right things will happen. I don't know that you or I provided folks a lot of great reason for optimism other than what we were saying is, "Wake up."
Heidi Heitkamp:
Right, right.
Steve Bullock:
Yeah, no, it is uncomfortable to talk about what happened, but let's make sure that we don't repeat that again.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah. The one thing that I would also say, Steve, is for me, the high point of this movie, and I'm not just blowing smoke, was, and just if you get a chance to see it's completely unscripted. I think we were given, what, three pages of background.
Steve Bullock:
That's about it, and it was a six-hour exercise.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Then just sit in the chair. People who were in those chairs were serious. They had been in the room, they were generals who have been in the room. They were Homeland Security professionals.
Steve Bullock:
Number two at Homeland Security under President Trump.
Heidi Heitkamp:
FBI, had a counterterrorism in FBI. So this was a pretty aggressive, hardcore cast. You and I were the two politicians in the room. But at the end, what was interesting to me is in spite of all this expertise, the most optimistic moment in the end was your speech, which was completely unscripted.
Steve Bullock:
Oh, yeah.
Heidi Heitkamp:
We had a press conference after the day's event. President, I forget what was your name again? Hawtham.
Steve Bullock:
Hawtham. President Hawtham.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah, or my as husband says still, Hotham.
Steve Bullock:
Hotham as your husband says.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Hotham. President Hawtham goes to a microphone and, completely unscripted, redefines American democracy, redefines the day's event in the context of what unites us. Doesn't point the finger and say, "We're going to punish every one of you," although that was really my role. "I'm going to get you if you go into the capitol again." But to me, the optimistic part is if we have leaders like you portrayed there who, at the end of the day, start immediately thinking about how to unite the country, not how to continue the divisions, you will give optimism to a whole lot of people in the United States. So what motivated you? I mean, what were you thinking about when you made that speech?
Steve Bullock:
I don't know. Because as you know, it was all unscripted and one of the many great things that you did, Heidi, was somebody, this guy was the main, I think DOD spokesman for President Obama, right?
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah.
Steve Bullock:
The real deal sort of guy was trying to give talking points and things like that. You were like, "Just speak from your heart. You know this."
Heidi Heitkamp:
I said, I pushed him back and said, "Listen, the reason why this man got reelected is because of authenticity, because he is who he is. This is a time for him to be who he is, not a bunch of talking points." I mean, if there is a grand slam home run in this movie, it was the one that you got pitched to you out of the ballpark.
Steve Bullock:
I think what I was thinking was that this was an intense exercise. I think everybody took it very seriously. Then the feelings of where are we all now and wanted to convey that to the, quote, unquote, American people. I think the cool thing too is you said if you have a chance to see it, they're working on, in April, having screenings of this all around the country. So I think that hopefully it'll end up on some national streaming platform that you can see, but it really is a movie that should be a conversation prompt. It's not like necessarily you'll walk out and say, "Okay, either all is good or the world's gone to hell." But it should be a conversation prompt about where are we as a country and as a polity.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Well, I hope you'll come back because I want to talk about Montana and North Dakota politics, the politics of the Great Plains.
Steve Bullock:
You bet, Heidi. Sharing a hot dish with you, I would do that any day of the week.
Heidi Heitkamp:
So Joel, welcome back to The Hot Dish. Thanks for co-hosting with me. The news comes at you so fast. I wake up in the morning and I think, "Oh, I need to find out what happened to that." Then I check on that and then I see five other feeds that, "Oh, I need to find out what's going on there." I mean, it's just how do you keep up talking to North Dakotans? I mean, it's got to be a full-time job just reading everything in the morning to get ready.
Joel Heitkamp:
Yeah, I mean, you know from what you did, there's a routine. I get up in the morning and I read the local papers. I read the local media. I basically go to The New York Times. You check out the Wall Street Journal, and this is the one you're going to shake your head at me and just say, "Really, Joel?" One of the best sources for talk radio of what the pulse of everybody's is X or Twitter.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Absolutely.
Joel Heitkamp:
If you go to Twitter, you can find out what people are talking about pretty quick out there.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah, and I think there's a lot of yak-yak about this as an elite site, but it also, there's a lot of looky-loos, people who'd never tweet who just every morning go through say, "Oh, okay, I need to follow up with that. I need to do this." It's interesting because at full disclosure, James Lankford is a good friend of mine, the senator from Oklahoma who just got rolled by his own party, did all that work to try and help solve the border crisis and then was told not because the product was bad, let's just point out that the border bill that he did with Sinema and Chris Murphy from Connecticut, that border bill was endorsed by Border Patrol, by the union who's on the border all day long, who says, "This will help us tremendously," but yet couldn't get it done. Why do you think that is, Joel?
Joel Heitkamp:
Well, because it's an election year because Donald Trump told them not to do it and because they're a bunch of chicken shits. I mean, really, that's it. I mean, these guys, I always define people like this. Kramer came out as, I am talking about United States Senator Kevin Kramer from my state, it looked like he actually took a risk. He came out in national media and said, "It's our job to do something. I don't think that we just sit there because it's an election year and not do something." Then as soon as the pressure got put on him, he ran. I mean, I always gauge people by this, Heidi. Would I give them my keys in a tough South Dakota bar? Because right about the...
Heidi Heitkamp:
Explain that. Explain that.
Joel Heitkamp:
Well, I grew up right north of South Dakota and the drinking age was 18, so we got into a scrap or two down there. But I mean, the reality is once the fighting started, they ran right as quick as they could. They took the keys and said, "See you. I don't care." Lankford is still sitting in that bar rolling around on the ground, getting the crap beat out of him and his career, Heidi, will not recover from this. It won't.
Heidi Heitkamp:
You don't think so?
Joel Heitkamp:
No.
Heidi Heitkamp:
I mean, and I just want to tell people, I mean, you may not agree with his politics. He's very conservative, comes out of a religious background, ran the largest Bible camp in the country. I can tell you, James Lankford lives his faith. He lives what he believes. He has got great sympathy for the human tragedy that's at the border that I'm sure has been driving a lot of this work. But he also understands that we can't keep doing what we're doing and that we need to have support. But the support within the Senate of people who will step up has just evaporated on him. Do you really think his career won't survive?
Joel Heitkamp:
Yeah. No, it won't. I mean, you look at states like his, they're not as bad as my home state. It's a pretty red state, but you got to realize that out of the red, he just lost 65, 70%. What's going to happen to him is not they're going to lose a Senate seat, you're going to have a Republican run against him now. Before, he didn't have to worry about that. That's happening at the state legislative level. It's going to be happening more at the congressional level. There's a reason these moderate Republicans are pulling the pin. They don't want to go through a primary process. They don't want to have to fight two battles.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Do you think, looking into the future, let's say that Trump is no longer the physical...
Joel Heitkamp:
A-hole?
Heidi Heitkamp:
No, that train's left a long time ago, Joel. He's too old to change who he is. I mean, I'm saying he's not the dominant figure in Republican politics. Is there room for James Lankford or Rob Portman? I just spent some time with Rob over in Ohio. Roy Blunt, I was talking about the people that I've done programs with, Roy Blunt from Missouri. I've been with Paul Ryan. All of these people who were really policy wonks in the Republican Party, true conservatives, they're leaving. So what does that mean for getting things done in Washington?
Joel Heitkamp:
Well, I thought Kyrsten Sinema said it best when she said, "Look," I'm paraphrasing, "but you didn't try to solve the problem. You know what? For all you crazies, go to Texas. Don't come to Arizona," and this is a woman that left the party that you and I come from. Did you think in our lifetime that you would see the son of a president become president? I didn't. I didn't think it was ever going to happen again. Like John Adams, John Quincy Adams. Instead, you got George H.W. and George W. It happened. I think we're incredibly naive if we don't realize that it's the last name Trump, and if Donnie Jr. as dumb as what he is, wants to be active in politics, once the old man's in a nursing home, he'll be there. This is going to go on for a while. This is going to go... I mean, this is the guy that I don't think can tie his shoes, but you watch, he's going to be a political force. The GOP in our lifetime will never, ever, ever be the same.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Wow. Like I said, I just feel for James, I feel for anyone who wants to get things done. But let's talk a little bit about where things are in Rural America. I'm looking at numbers. I look at numbers all the time politically, and Democrats don't seem to be gaining much in Rural America. I mean, in spite of what one would argue, massive investments, whether it's in the Farm Bill, whether it is in Trump's trade money that he sent back after he disrupted trade, whether it is in infrastructure, there's just never been an administration that has put as many resources into Rural America, and there's been absolutely no sense that that has moved the political needle at all.
Joel Heitkamp:
So when did they quit doing it? I'm serious about that. When did Democrats quit placating the rural Republicans and... Look at the Farm Bill, Heidi. I mean, I like the Farm Bill. I live here. Ag drives my economy. It basically makes me a living. I'm not trying to talk down farmers as much as what I'm trying to talk practical here in terms of politics. If you look at the Farm Bill, this partnership was made between SNAP or food stamps or whatever you want to call it, and the Ag Bill in terms of crop insurance, in terms of protecting sugar. I mean, nobody is subsidized more than the United States farmer, period. So if you're the Democrats and you continue to cut these deals in this bill because you can get more for folks with SNAP, you know what? At what point don't you as urban Democrats say, "Shove it, we can do this without you. We have the power. There's more people here from an urban standpoint. Do you really believe any of the..."
There's less votes in the rural area. I know there's two senators from each state, but do you really think that they're not going to fund SNAP? If I were the United States farmer, I would be the most worried that they divide that legislation. When they do that, if they do that as Democrats from a strategic standpoint, what's going to end up happening is the rural Republicans are not going to be able to deliver. Then the Heidi Heitkamps and the Colin Petersons are back in the game.
Heidi Heitkamp:
You know what's really interesting when you say that, Joel, if you talk to so many farmers, they're like, "We just need to separate that nutrition title from the..." You're like, "Dude, you have no idea." This was a compromise that Bob Dole did with George McGovern and George McGovern and Bob Dole did Farmers in America a huge favor when they linked nutrition to the Farm Bill.
Joel Heitkamp:
Let's be honest, those farmers you just described weren't the ones that I was cheating off of so I stayed eligible for football, right? I mean, those are the farmers that are a quarter bubble from a level, but they believe it. I mean, they do. They believe it. It's out there. So when you look at state legislatures, when I first got into the State Senate in North Dakota, we were one vote shy of the majority. Right now, there's four out of 47, four, North Dakota state senators that are Democrats. Now, you got to ask yourself why. If you look at the Republicans, they don't have anybody left to beat up in these state legislatures in these rural areas. So what they're doing is the ultra Trump or MAGAs are now running against the establishment Republicans. I can show you how it's happening on a local level as much as what you described it happening on a national level.
I mean, we are going to be led for a while by the Marjorie Taylor Greenes of the world until the Democrats get smarter on how to deal with this stuff. I mean, Democrats, I think, are getting way better in Congress. I think they are. I think they've got themselves a leader that is very strategic. When you can pull a guy out in a hospital gown and say, "I need your vote," you kick butt. But that being said, where they're not strategic yet enough and not hard and mean enough yet is in elections. It's one thing to be great on that Senate or that House floor, but when it comes to the election, you got to be pitbull mean.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Let's wrap it up and say, let's look into the next couple of weeks. It's Valentine's Day, so we should say something nice about our respective spouses. What did you get Sue for Valentine's Day?
Joel Heitkamp:
We're going on a cruise.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah, that was for your anniversary. You're rolling that in, also the Christmas present? What else does it count for?
Joel Heitkamp:
Well, we're getting going on a cruise. Each day should count as one, right? I mean, the reality is Sue and I are very realistic. We've been married for 40 years, and I'd say 32 of those were happy.
Heidi Heitkamp:
You're such a jerk.
Joel Heitkamp:
I mean, she'd be the one that would say about 28, but yeah, I mean, the truth is we're all happy and not many people are like that. So we can give each other crap. Still, that to me is what makes a Valentine's Day more important than buying some ring or whatever.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Or flowers or whatever. It's the fact... My daughter doesn't celebrate Valentine's Day because it's all been made up by Hallmark. It's like, [inaudible 00:36:10].
Joel Heitkamp:
She's right.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah, I know, but still.
Joel Heitkamp:
I like Hallmark. Don't get me wrong. It is a very commercialized deal.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah. I mean, but still, it's a day [inaudible 00:36:21].
Joel Heitkamp:
Well, okay, what are you getting Darwin?
Heidi Heitkamp:
Nothing. We never get [inaudible 00:36:23].
Joel Heitkamp:
Exactly. Hold on a second, folks. Let's see if she falls off that pedestal or not.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Well, listen, Joel, thanks for joining me on The Hot Dish. We'll live to fight another day. We'll see how all of this plays out. But the dysfunction that is Washington DC, everybody looks at that. Let me tell you, it has weaved its way and maybe bubbled up from the bottom. So if you think that state houses are any better, you probably haven't been paying attention to what's happening in your state.
Joel Heitkamp:
Well, and one last thing. If you look at the big success that Biden did have over the last couple of weeks, it was when he stood there with the very people I'm attempting to describe here, guys, you don't piss with, and that's United Auto Workers. That was a huge win for Joe Biden. It wasn't a rubber stamp, it was a, "Hey, you come, you earn it."
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yep.
Joel Heitkamp:
So if there's anything to be learned about democratic politics, it's what happened with the United Auto Workers.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Show up.
Joel Heitkamp:
Show up, work, punch.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Yeah. Thanks, Joel.
Joel Heitkamp:
You bet.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Well, I mean, I always learn so little when I talk to you, Joel.
Joel Heitkamp:
Well, you know what? I think that's part of the problem. The art of doing well in life is the art of listening, but we will get you there. You know what? That was fun. I hope you thought so. Let us know what you think and give us suggestions for what you'd like us to talk about. Send us an email at podcast@onecountryproject.com, and thanks for joining us. You don't have to listen, but you did. I hope you enjoyed it. I do because it's a conversation that I wish we were all having together, Heidi.
Heidi Heitkamp:
Not only that, but we do this because we don't think that people hear enough from the rural perspective. We draw big differences. Sometimes those differences aren't big. Sometimes they are. So that's why we hope that you will learn more about what's happening in Rural America by checking out onecountryproject.com, and find out the work that we're doing to try and unite this country across regional divides. We'll be back in two more weeks with more Hot Dish comfort food for Rural America.
Speaker 6:
[inaudible 00:38:57].