Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Becoming an entrepreneur takes grit.
Deciding to do it solo takes courage.
This is 1,000 Routes, the podcast where we explore the stories of solopreneurs who have made the bet on themselves to build a business that serves their life. Every episode you'll hear about the lessons they've learned and the uncommon routes they've taken to stand out in a world that is purposefully trying to commoditize them.
Devin Pickell [00:00:00]:
March 2023 layoffs. I was like, all right, this is the second time I'm laid off. I didn't take this personally. I knew it wasn't based on any of the work I was doing. I was getting results, getting outcomes. I had full on data studio dashboards I built would report on these. There was really nothing left I could give to these businesses. You know, at that point, I've been doing it for about seven years.
Devin Pickell [00:00:19]:
I was like, I could do this myself.
Nick Bennett [00:00:28]:
Hey, it's Nick, and welcome to 1000 Routes, the podcast where I explore the stories of solopreneurs who have made the bet on themselves to build a business that serves their life. Every episode, you'll hear all about the lessons they've learned and the uncommon routes they've taken to stand out in a world that is purposefully trying to commoditize them.
Devin Pickell [00:00:50]:
I am Devin Pickell. Contrary to popular belief, it's not pickle. I've gotten that a lot growing up. I've embraced the pickle life. But yeah, Devin Pickell. And I am a solo content and SEO strategist.
Nick Bennett [00:01:07]:
Cool. What's the name of the company that you run? Do you have a name?
Devin Pickell [00:01:11]:
Yeah, it's Do I Need SEO? So the thought process behind that my site is still a work in progress for a lot of us. We could say the same. But my thought process was that when folks go into Google and they probably wanted their first searches, if they are being told SEO might be a good option for them or they're seeing someone on LinkedIn talking about SEO is Do I Need SEO? So, yeah, that's a very practical business name. Not nailed it. Yeah, some of these guys go way out there with their names. Very practical.
Nick Bennett [00:01:49]:
I'm one of them. I feel like if there was someone, if I was asking the question, Do I Need SEO? And there was a website that was called Do I Need SEO, I would go there first, right? Google would serve it first. And I would be like, that person clearly knows what I'm looking for. So I first came across you and your work through a mutual friend, Bridget Poetker, who also has a name that I have butchered. So I'm glad that you helped me not butcher your name because I was definitely Devin pickling.
Devin Pickell [00:02:21]:
Pickle.
Nick Bennett [00:02:22]:
Yeah, I pickled. I said it 500 times. And so I appreciate you correcting me, but I came across you and your work. She was a huge advocate after all of my chats with people, and I was like, hey, Bridge, who else should I have on the show? And she was like, you need to chat with Devin very much do the work kind of guy. Very much like, not like the build in public or like the very loud and a ton of fanfare, but you're building something really cool. And so I knew we had a chat doing my research and looking you up, getting ready for this. I'm just going to rattle off some stuff that I found because I think I haven't found somebody who has had this many, like several pages of Google search results. Usually it's like their website, their LinkedIn.
Nick Bennett [00:03:11]:
But let me tell you this, Nextiva, G2, Triple Whale, Help Scout, BrightLocal, Privy, AdRoll, Nutshell, Supermetrics, Unsplash, Cognism, Wizza, YouTube, bro, where did you come from? Where did you find the time to publish yourself or to create work and be published in all of these places?
Devin Pickell [00:03:29]:
Yeah, it's been many, many years kickstarting my career in content SEO. At G2, I'll be the first to say it took many applications, interviews. I've been working so many crappy unpaid internships just to try to get my foot in the door somewhere. And then G2 took a shot on me. And at the time, Bridget and I were pivotal to that team that built million organic monthly traffic to act. Name was G2 crowd. Now it's G2.com, comma. Very well known in the software review space, but that opened up a lot of network connections for me.
Devin Pickell [00:04:10]:
Everyone wanted to work with G2. We had a phenomenal guest posting program where we would swap guest authors on each other's sites. The typical content person may just sign off after that, I use that as opportunities. I had created a running spreadsheet of folks. Now I'm going to make you a part of my network, because I knew G2. Any tech company, you only got so many years there before you pivot to something else. I kept this running spreadsheet of folks that either I had Gus wrote for or maybe a colleague of mine, Gus wrote for. And, you know, I continue that conversation over LinkedIn.
Devin Pickell [00:04:51]:
Had casual chats like this, maybe not podcast format, but, you know, like maybe buy them coffee, see what they're up to, what they're doing, learn more about these people personally. And those connections just built, you know, brought some of those Nextiva. And Nextiva was able to work under a very well known dude in the marketing space, Gaetano DiNardi. Again, right place, right time. Working for the right folks, especially given Covid. Nextiva was uniquely positioned in the remote work space. Everyone wanted to sign on and work with Nextiva, continuing those connections and taking them to privy and ultimately still being able to tap them in my solo life. So, yeah, that's where the many pages come from.
Nick Bennett [00:05:38]:
Well, I think what you. You saw the opportunity where most people don't. I mean, there, I'm sure there was a ton of people on the G2 content team that didn't make the contributions to other publications in the way that you did that built your reputation in the space. How did you know to take that opportunity? Or, like, what motivated you to take that opportunity?
Devin Pickell [00:05:58]:
Yeah, there were a couple folks on the team that were really good at it. I would like, you know, cherry pick some. Some great ideas folks had and applied them to what I was doing. I went to school for journalism, so I understand a lot of building connection starts with building that trust first. And you don't really. I don't know if you've worked at businesses where you'll get SEO outreach, people just spamming you in your inbox. Be like, hey, I want to write on your site. Or, hey, why don't you sneak this link in for me? And it's like, dude, I don't even know you.
Devin Pickell [00:06:34]:
So understanding coming from more of a journalistic background, knowing that it all starts with trust and good intuition, helped me put two and two together and sort of keep my coveted list of connections.
Nick Bennett [00:06:49]:
Yeah, I mean, building that reputation, especially at that stage, I think. And you already mentioned this, right? That move to Nextiva and working under or working with Gaetano, who's pretty legendary in the SEO space, I'm sure. I would imagine that the contributions that you made publicly probably had something to do with them choosing you versus anybody else.
Devin Pickell [00:07:15]:
So it was summer 2020, right, when, like, you know, Covid was going crazy and was part of a pretty big layoff at G2 bridge will be the first to tell you, anyone on my network, I don't really have shame. You know, I'll be the guy out. We're like, oh, we should really say this. The waiter didn't do this thing that we wanted. I'll be like, yeah, I got this. I don't have that shame. So when I got laid off the next day, I posted publicly. I'm ready to grind.
Devin Pickell [00:07:47]:
I'm in it. Let's go. Ready to find my next opportunity. And Gaetano and RCMO at Nextiva, at the time, I guess I was on their radar. They had seen a lot of the work I had done at G2, and so it was just perfect timing. But, yeah, being public and out there on LinkedIn, one thing I would say that G2 did that set a lot of us up? Well, was they were adamant about building a personal brand. This was like, back in, gosh, like 2017. 2018, where personal branding wasn't is what it is today.
Devin Pickell [00:08:23]:
You know, some companies may feel like that's stifling the work that you're doing with us. Like, get off Twitter, get off LinkedIn, just focus on what's in front of you. G2, particularly Jake, who was our manager at the time, was really adamant about getting all of us active on LinkedIn, promoting our work through Twitter as well, getting in these inner circles. So, yeah, it paid off for me. Looking back now in my career, that's wild.
Nick Bennett [00:08:50]:
I mean, I know a lot of people call it building a personal brand. I'm very much anti personal brand crowd.
Devin Pickell [00:08:55]:
You got a bit of a personal brand, though. Yeah.
Nick Bennett [00:08:57]:
I actively try to not build a personal brand, and I focus way more on reputation, and I think that there is a. I believe that building a personal brand is focused way more on being known for the sake of being known versus building a reputation. And I even had this conversation with Bridget when she was on, and I think the same thing applies to what you're doing or what you have done to get you out on your own, which is you went out there and demonstrated that you're capable of generating outcomes, desirable and high impact outcomes for people. And you did add G2. It took guys like Gaetano and the CMO Nextiva took notice, and people with personal brands don't have that. People with reputations do. And so I'm pretty adamant about this mindset shift. I'm just curious, and because this is about your business, but I'm just curious.
Nick Bennett [00:09:55]:
Gaetana just seems like a cool dude. What was it like to work with him?
Devin Pickell [00:09:58]:
Yeah, no, he's definitely someone who is, like, in my inner friend circles, outside of work. And so that's why I think him and I meshed well. I would say he's definitely out there and he's not afraid to speak his mind. What really gravitated me towards him and really got me over the edge of wanting to join next diva was combing through some of his LinkedIn. He has a YouTube channel where he would just do. I don't know if you've seen the video, but he, like, would take cold DM's, he would get on LinkedIn and just, like, as a point to show, like, how horrible these. These, like, cold pitches are. He had, like, one of those, like, prank style filming guys where they're like, kind of hiding behind a bush, and he had, like, a shirt mic on and just go up to people and, like, say, the cold DM.
Devin Pickell [00:10:53]:
And they would be like, what? Like, he just. He's creative. He's out there. He's not afraid of getting a LinkedIn feud, but, like, it's coming from a place of, like, you know, he has the results and outcome and experience to back. Back it up. That's how I saw a bit of myself in him. And so I really wanted to work for a guy like him.
Nick Bennett [00:11:14]:
That's cool, man. So let's think through this. So let's kind of move through this a little bit. G2. Big logo. Nextiva. Big logo. You're polishing all these other places.
Nick Bennett [00:11:24]:
What was the turning point for you? How did you decide to take the leap and go solo?
Devin Pickell [00:11:29]:
Yeah, so from Nextiva, you know, I had felt like I had gotten so much awesome experience there. It's actually where the first time, you know, they had an awesome video team. They just didn't have, like, the most direction. And so that was a side project I decided to take on ultimately, you know, really helping lead the growth of that YouTube channel. But, yeah, so, you know, I felt like I'd done really all I could at Nextiva and eventually moved to privy, which was under the attentive umbrella at the time, did a bit more of that growth marketing kind of hacking together processes, seeing what works on a very small sub 100 team. It was really the dawn of 2020 three's tech apocalypse layoffs that I was part of. March 2023 layoffs. Unfortunately, that was like, this is the second time I'm laid off.
Devin Pickell [00:12:28]:
I didn't take this personally. I knew it wasn't based on any of the work I was doing. I was getting results, getting outcomes. I had full on data studio dashboards I built, would report on these. There was really nothing left I could give to these businesses at that point. I'd been doing it for about seven years. I was like, I could do this myself. In fact, that's how I got into marketing in the beginning.
Devin Pickell [00:12:55]:
Washington, working freelancing, taking unpaid internships, just trying to find any side project that I could just to get my foot in the door. I was like, we're kind of coming full circle here. I could 100% do this. Looking from where I started to where I am now, it was kind of a no brainer.
Nick Bennett [00:13:13]:
Got it. So you get laid off and it's like, apply for other jobs, compete with 2000 people for some director level position or something like that. Or try to take the chance on yourself. You choose to do that. So how did you acquire your first clients?
Devin Pickell [00:13:32]:
Yeah, so it's funny. At that time, Gaetano, if I say g throughout this interview just now, I'm referring to Gaetano. He had been solo, I think, about six months for himself at that point. Him and I had, like, a really raw, honest conversation. You know, I don't know what my next move, what I want to do. I didn't quite come out the gate applying to new jobs because I really didn't know. I was really jaded at that time. Coming off a second layoff despite performance, it, like, sort of gave me a deeper look into our industry as a whole and how volatile these opportunities can be.
Devin Pickell [00:14:16]:
And I'm like, after my conversation with him, came to the realization, I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna lay myself off. Like, I'm gonna stay true to myself. And also had conversations with Adam Goyette, who's also well known in the space. And he had also been going solo and consulting at the time. And he was like, listen, man, you could always jump back in house somewhere. Those opportunities, they may be more hard to get now than they used to be, but they'll always be there. You know, still have my youth and more youth ahead of me. This is, you know, before you start building a family and doing the big things in life.
Devin Pickell [00:14:58]:
Like, this is the time now to really start it, try it, see it through, and just give it an honest shot. So those were the two conversations with G and Adam that sort of catapulted me.
Nick Bennett [00:15:12]:
What did Gaetano share with you that was felt like the. The no turning back. He said, it sounds like he said something to you that was like. It just. It cut deep.
Devin Pickell [00:15:27]:
Yeah, no, him and I are on the same wavelength, and which we, like, we see through the b's, you know, and for him, actually, a really fun conversation we had. You know, it's like he gets to be on the consultant side, removed from the deep political structures that are, you know, take years and years to build within companies, which I think are important if you are part of the team. But I also think it's important to have those outsiders giving you, like, an honest gut check, you know, now doing this for a year and some change and me being to be the outside voice for some companies to be like, listen, I don't think your in house SEO is giving you his best foot forward. He could be doing X, Y and Z. And actually, for my audit, I found within the first hour that these pieces of content haven't been refreshed in over a year. These are some of your highest converting opportunities. Why has this work been neglected? It's harsh. And gee is, if you don't know him, you could be like, oh, he's kind of like, comes off a little strong first, but it's always coming from a good place.
Devin Pickell [00:16:41]:
And I say I resonate with that as well as being able to embrace being that sort of outsider in a business, not being so deeply embedded in the political structures, afraid of what to say. And now I'm in a impromptu HR meeting of like, hey, you got to tone it down a bit. You're being sort of like a culture clash. It's like, no, you really need that honest person, that outside perspective. And I'm sure you feel that as well when you're consulting with brands.
Nick Bennett [00:17:13]:
Sounds like Gaetano gave you permission to go in there guns blazing and kind of just say the quiet part out loud. It's like, you can do this. He does it. And there's no reason that you can't have demonstrate what you know is or show people what you know is true and create value for people in this type of way. You know, he has his way of doing it. That may or may not be a more or less aggressive than how you would traditionally do it, but I think the. The sentiment's the same, which is like, don't be afraid to go in there and show people what you got.
Devin Pickell [00:17:54]:
Yeah, I'm not. You're not hiring me to agree with every decision you guys make. You're going to get the honest Devin. And it's ultimately why I also lead a little more towards the execution front. You know, I do have one person on my team now who's helping with video, something I am not well versed in. But on the execution front, I think, you know, we could have another conversation about this. I think, know, being on the outside for a year and some change has shown me, like, it was really eye opening. You know, being in house, I was always more of a, let's get this damn thing live, and then we could fix it.
Devin Pickell [00:18:35]:
Now, being outside has shown me how deep of an execution problem there is within a lot of companies. Even. Even companies I'm not, you know, I'll just take, like, client calls and ultimately decide maybe I'm not the best fit. But when I do see some of those inner workings, I'm like, you guys aren't doing shit, man. Like, why. Why is nothing getting. What is the work that's happening here? Why are people just sitting on their hands and being able to express that from the outside perspective has been refreshing. It's brutal for some folks.
Devin Pickell [00:19:07]:
They don't want to hear it, but you need to hear it.
Nick Bennett [00:19:10]:
I think people want to hear it. I think it's just hard to hear. I mean, having been on the inside of these companies, not a tech company, but just, like, a company that was publishing a lot, I think we were doing, at our height, like, two or three articles a day, and we were doing, when I left, like, three a week, just trying to. Testing out different. Different polishing cadences and things like that. And one of the things that's tough is when someone comes in to tell you the thing you need to hear, but you don't want to hear it, but it is what it is, and someone who has the courage to say it is often usually the most valuable person. So. So talk me through.
Nick Bennett [00:19:52]:
You go out on your own. I'm sure there was a moment when you did it and you second guessed yourself. Talk to me. Talk to me about some of those things.
Devin Pickell [00:20:02]:
Yeah. You know, I think there are still days where I second guess myself, to be honest. When the money's flowing, right? You're like, oh, Mandy, crushing it. Couldn't be. Could be happier. I think the first time I started a second guess myself was when I had, like, a pretty significant down month, a client, and I just weren't really seeing eye to eye, and they were decent. They were decent paying, not gonna lie. But ultimately, like, we were just not a good fit for each other.
Devin Pickell [00:20:30]:
So we broke things off. At the time, I was like, you know, I'll fill this up with, you know, another. Another spot. No pressure. Uh, but it took some time, and I think it was like, I try to learn from. From every action I do, and that was definitely a learning moment of, like, you need to be comfortable with being a little uncomfortable, because, like, the reality is there are going to be down months. Like, things will ebb and flow. You know, we're.
Devin Pickell [00:20:57]:
We're in slack group, where folks are talking super raw all the time about, like, gosh, that may give off a very confident personality on LinkedIn, but we see more of the raw side of, hey, things aren't really going as well. I had crushed at this first quarter, but these next few months have been brutal. Anyone experiencing something like this, I think, for me, that was when I had my first significant down month. I was second guessing. I'm not going to lie. I took an interview or two, you know, made sure they were good fits for me, I was very picky in the interview process. This was last summer. Got to a couple final rounds, and I just, like, didn't feel right.
Devin Pickell [00:21:39]:
I was like, this just doesn't feel quite right. You sometimes, you know, you got to stick with your gut feeling and have been able to bounce back from that. But, yeah, that was the. That was definitely the first time where I felt exposed.
Nick Bennett [00:21:52]:
Whoa, so you took some interviews? Was. There's. There's a bunch here. I think taking interviews is really, like, did you still have clients when you were doing that?
Devin Pickell [00:22:03]:
I did, yeah. Yeah. So it was me, like, assessing the risk and realizing, you know, I. Earlier that year, 2023, had been part of the exodus that was happening in marketing, sales, you know, all that tech in general, you know, overthinking a bit, for sure, you know? All right. Like, seeing how vulnerable these client relationships can be and trying to be a little bit risk adverse. Like, you know, maybe it's not bad to have a backup plan, but as I got further in the interview process, you know, there was even an interview, I just found myself not really showing up all there. I'm like, this is not, like, what I want to do, man. Like, I don't want to be another head of content or whatever in a cog, not saying, you know, hey, someone's.
Nick Bennett [00:22:57]:
Got to do that job. There's nothing wrong with that.
Devin Pickell [00:22:59]:
Someone has to do it. It was just I had been, at that point, about, like, five, six months into this and was seeing a lot of success and found my own personal life. I was happier, definitely healthier. I wasn't realized I wasn't going to let, like, a down month or two get to me. I put up with a lot more heavier stuff in my life, and I'm happy I saw through because, you know, I was able to hit a year in April, and, yeah, it's been pretty smooth since.
Nick Bennett [00:23:32]:
That's cool, man. I'm glad you didn't quit. I think one of the things that I tried to reinforce in myself and even with all the solos that I work with and talk with all times, like, managing that risk. Right. It's like having a client that has too much impact on your portfolio is a dangerous place to be, and you don't necessarily realize the level of exposure until the agreement comes to its natural conclusion, whether it is the project comes to the end or it doesn't work out, and that's a tough place to be. This happens with this client, though. I guess it took you a bit to backfill that slot. Is that kind of where this whole, this whole exploration comes from.
Nick Bennett [00:24:22]:
So you inevitably fill that client slot. How do you, how are you acquiring clients now?
Devin Pickell [00:24:29]:
Yeah, mostly, mostly through LinkedIn, I would say. I actually did like a yemenite, like a self report at the beginning of this year, looking of all the sources of where I was getting clients, only had one inbound. I broke it out between actual clients and then folks ultimately maybe went another way. I only had one inbound request through my website, which made me feel super happy. At least someone's finding me on the web. LinkedIn has been, honestly such an awesome platform just to get posts out there, even if they're memes, just making sure folks are seeing my face, seeing them still relevant, but also having people like G, like Bridget, like other folks I've worked with in the past, I've even had connections come up. Actually, recently on LinkedIn, I had done work with this client. It was like a side project when I was at G2 or Nextiva.
Devin Pickell [00:25:36]:
We were talking many years ago, and they were like, hey, man, I see your solo now. We might have a little project for you. You want to talk more about it? And then scrolling up, I'm like, wow. The last time we talked was 2020. So it is cool seeing there is a demand to work with, to work with Devin. And harping back in a conversation I had with g was like, listen, man, like, people want to work with me. Like, at the end of the day, they have the trust in me. I've built my, like you said, reputation because at the end of the day, your name is all you have in the solo world.
Devin Pickell [00:26:15]:
It's a very fragile, careful being that takes time to build. And fortunately, that has paid off, at least for now. You know, I'm not going to say dark days aren't ahead where I will need to start hitting outbound hard. But referrals, and I'm also a great source of referrals for other folks in my network. I've been very vocal about that on my LinkedIn. I think it's important in our space to always pass the buck, make sure other people are taken care of as well.
Nick Bennett [00:26:47]:
I completely, completely agree. One of the things that I learned the hard way when I first started was there is a very big difference between your network and your audience. Like, you are, like, me, don't have a huge quote unquote audience on LinkedIn, like a couple thousand followers. Like, it's nothing. It's nothing crazy compared to a lot of people. Yeah, I mean, like, g can make a post and reach thousands and thousands of people like Bridget can do that. Like, a bunch of people that I speak with on this show. The point of leveraging or building that reputation and building your network is that people actually know you and they can vouch for you and they can, when they have an SEO problem, they think, Devin, they know you can help them.
Nick Bennett [00:27:41]:
And so it's like your ability to build this business through LinkedIn without having a massive following is because you built with these relationships intuitively. Whatever you knew to build these relationships and start these conversations with people so that four years later, they can reach out to you and say, hey, I saw that you went solo. We have this SEO problem, and I think you can help us. Right? This is. This is a through line that not enough people see. And they're like, I'm just going to post on LinkedIn a shit ton until people think they need what I have and people want to work with me, and then the inbounds come rolling in. It's just not the case.
Devin Pickell [00:28:30]:
100%. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Is in the grand scheme of things. Yeah, I don't have. I'm not a linked influencer, you know, I'm not. I have, I think, 2000 connections, but I'm not gonna say I know most of them. But if you broke it out, percentage wise, you know, I do know a hefty amount of those folks, I'll be the first to reach out to someone. You know, if they come across my mind, sending a DM or an email takes like 30 seconds, and that could be enough to separate you from someone who's just out here following a LinkedIn course that they bought on TikTok of how to become a thought leader and, you know, grow your connections.
Devin Pickell [00:29:15]:
Like, I'm not, you know, above, like, just checking in on people. How are people doing? How's, you know, how's your daughter? Oh, I heard, you know, she had a softball game. How did that go? You know, like, just honest conversation, real human people stuff.
Nick Bennett [00:29:29]:
This is business development. This is advanced business development. I want everyone to know this. This is advanced solopreneur business development moment. And I literally have to teach this to people. Be a human. Go and do what you just said. Reach out to someone.
Nick Bennett [00:29:43]:
Hey, it's been a bit. How are things going? Yeah, I know your daughter plays softball. How's her season? This is not crazy stuff, but this is just be a human person and build relationships.
Devin Pickell [00:29:56]:
There was a designer, my network. I just reached out to her this morning. Had been a couple months since I connected with the project, went on the site that she helped redesign, saw it was completed. Great job. Just wanted to, like, tap her for that. Like, yo, I'm happy that worked out. If you ever need any more design work, you know, let's have it. Let's have a chat.
Devin Pickell [00:30:17]:
But like you said, if, you know, content, video, SEO problem comes their way now, they're going to think of me, you know, because we're just staying top of minding each other. And it's honest relationships. There's no, like, it doesn't need to be transactional all the time. You don't need to be hopping on calls where you kind of get the ick and you're like, oh, man, something is like, this guy is trying to fleece me right now. Like, what the hell? Why did I even take this call? You know?
Nick Bennett [00:30:45]:
Yeah. So here we go. I met someone through just, like, networking months ago. I mean, months ago. And someone in our slack group was like, hey, I'm looking for a freelance writer that's good at taking, like, highly complex technical topics and, like, distilling them down. And I was like, that's Beth. I was like, oh, my gosh, this is perfect. Like, I.
Nick Bennett [00:31:06]:
And I made the connection, and then, like you said, do the human thing. A week or two later, after I made the connection, they were able to chat. And I get a ping from Kaylee, who asked for the connection. She was like, hey, I just want you to know Beth is awesome. I love Beth. We hit it off. Instant besties. Like, thanks so much for the connect.
Nick Bennett [00:31:28]:
It's like, these are the little things that strengthen now. It's like my relationship with Beth and Kaylee is stronger because I was able to make that connection.
Devin Pickell [00:31:38]:
Yeah, and you didn't go into that with a, like, pure transactional mind. You know what I mean? Like, you're just like, I see you have a problem. I know someone who is great for this. Let me take the liberty. Like, I want to put you two in touch, you know? Like, you shouldn't even be putting a LinkedIn post out there, getting all sorts of cold spamming DM's folks desperate for work. I know someone who's going to crush this for you. And what can I do to actually make this successful outcome for both of you? It doesn't take a lot of time. I feel like we're so distracted now.
Devin Pickell [00:32:15]:
We're hit with overstimulation from every direction where just focusing on the most simplest things. Like you said, being a human can go a lot further than I think.
Nick Bennett [00:32:28]:
People think it's kind of sad that we forgot that part of our existence being a human was a thing that you were supposed to do to build your business. One of the things that I find people tend to struggle with, and I'm curious if it feels this way to you, is like, especially coming from the tech world, it's like their ambitions are generally world domination. Right? Like, we need every person on the planet to buy from us. There is no amount of customers out of too many customers. Like, more, more, more, more is what they want. And a lot of people who come from those world, from that world, find themselves trying to build a more than they can. Either they may be able to handle or just trying to do so much. It's like, I remind people all the time, like, you need like five to ten, depending on your business model, maybe 15 clients.
Nick Bennett [00:33:27]:
Some people can get to like 20 clients, depending on your model. You don't need everybody in the entire world. You don't need to reach a million people. Like, you need ten human beings on the planet to opt into working with you. And so build your business in a way that accounts for that. And if you're working with ten clients and one rolls off, you're in a pretty safe space. It should be pretty relatively easy to fill that slot. I mean, even if you have four clients and one rolls off, it should be relatively simple to have a network that has access to the type of people you're trying to sell into.
Nick Bennett [00:34:07]:
And that's aside from all of the marketing things that you do to stay top of mind to introduce new people to your work. Like, it's not saying instead of marketing, but this is a huge component. This idea of like, building a strong partner network. This whole idea is lost on a lot of people. And I'm not sure, I'm not sure why or it's not talked about enough. Like, a lot of people build this way. I mean, even a lot of people who focus so pure purely on marketing, build their business through this, through solid relationships.
Devin Pickell [00:34:42]:
Yeah, I have, like, personally seen the growth at all cost. Like, business model backfire. I think we've all seen examples of that. But, like, being within a business that has had to do several rounds of layoffs, some letting go of some really solid people because of, like, the growth at all cost mindset has, like, particularly made me very sensitive to that.
Nick Bennett [00:35:13]:
You said jaded before. It's like, totally, you're just like, so jaded by these businesses that you're like, you're so put off by the model by the entire structure. Like, I don't even want to touch it.
Devin Pickell [00:35:25]:
Yeah. So for me, it's like, you know, at any given time, I'm usually around five to six clients giving, you know, some. Some real solid hours every week. I don't have at least, you know, right now, maybe check back in a year or two. But, like, I really don't have, like, the aspiration to, like, build this thing right now, to, like, soaring heights. You know, why I went into this, why some of us go into this is, for one, we obviously believe in ourselves. We know we can do this, but also like, to get back some control in our lives. There is like a sense of.
Devin Pickell [00:36:05]:
A sense of comfort knowing that, again, I'm not going to lay myself off. I'm always going to give my best to my clients. That's a guarantee. I'm not outsourcing all my work to the Philippines and pawning it off as my own work. That's a guarantee is, you know, you're going to get work with Devin and have access to me. But, you know, I think actually, Bridget also mentioned this, too. It's like we both are, like, putting in solid hours, honest to good work, but also having that balance in our lives. But I know folks coming from the fast paced world of tech, especially like, a high growth startup who are now going solo, have that mindset of, like, I have to hoard everything like a dragon sitting on top of a mountain of gold.
Devin Pickell [00:36:57]:
And it's like, seeing it as what I say, like a zero sum game of, like, if I'm not getting the client, then I'm losing. It's really not like that at all. In fact, I think in chats with some founders, I think more businesses are trying to figure out how can we lean this out a little bit, find a right balance of, like, in house and, you know, contractors, freelancers, consultants. I think, like, that really is kind of the future of work for now, especially as AI roles. I don't think really, like, folks know the extents of AI's. How is that going to impact our world in the future? But, like, how can we, you know, have those outside folks to keep us honest? But also, you know, in house teams are so important as well because they'll. They'll know the business better than anyone. But, yeah, you know, ramble aside, I did not have, you know, seeing how that growth at all across mindset really burns people and hurts people and sort of disposes of people and just finding that comfortability for myself and being honest with that.
Nick Bennett [00:38:07]:
So you had alluded to this evolution of the work that you're doing. It started out kind of this purely SEO thing. I know you're starting to do YouTube or lean more into YouTube SEO. I don't know how you language that, but it's like, YouTube's a search engine just as much as Google is. I know. How do you think about evolving your services? How did you make the decision to add that type of thing? I guess I'm always curious how people land on what works and how they find traction there and all those types of things.
Devin Pickell [00:38:47]:
Yeah. So content SEO has always been my bread and butter. It's what I've been good at since the beginning. Those are my two core services. But I mentioned earlier that during Nextiva, they had a phenomenal videographer editor, a couple awesome on screen personalities. There just wasn't really a whole lot of direction, so I was crushing it in my day job and expressed to g, hey, I'd love to give this a shot. At the end of the day, it is a search engine. There are some very boring technical elements that go into creating a successful YouTube channel as well as, like, running tests, same as you would on your website.
Devin Pickell [00:39:33]:
You know, just that good old fashioned boring SEO work that, that works for a lot of brands. And I wanted to see how I could apply this to YouTube. And that was like the real, like, my first, getting my foot in the door in YouTube, monitoring the analytics, seeing, you know, up into the right growth we were getting, not only growing our search coming from YouTube, but also breaking it out. I'm sure you see it on how to searches on Google. Some of the top results are going to be those video carousels, which are almost always going to be YouTube videos. Given it's a property of Google, starting to connect the dots of this thing can really work. Finding ways to take up more real estate in searches by using YouTube is the catalyst for that. I had taken that experience from Nextiva, Privy, another incredible on screen talent over at privy, actually, right before him and I were both let go, we'd seen something like 500%.
Devin Pickell [00:40:43]:
Right when we finally got the green light, you know, over several months to start the YouTube channel, moving content over from, like, a gated masterclass format we've been pitching YouTube is the go to for this. Got the green light. We had grown, you know, channel views subscribers by, like, something like 500%. And I'm like, you know, I'm good at this. Like, this is not quite my bread and butter, but I'm fricking good at this. I think I'm better than most people understanding the sort of the inner workings of YouTube as a search engine. I'm not the best on screen talent, I'll be the first to admit that, but I have a way of working with more creative folks. I think creatives are honestly the unsung heroes of b two b tech.
Devin Pickell [00:41:31]:
And there's a lot of great d to c, more like consumer brands out there on YouTube, but seeing a lot of these like boring whiteboard style, you know, 1520 minutes videos on YouTube, folks, you know, as b two b brands. Taking the first hack at YouTube is like, let's throw that 45 minutes webinar up on our channel. Oh, we only got 13 views in six months. Like, oh, YouTube sucks. It's like, no, like, you need a fresh, a fresh ass content approach. And so that was like a service offering. I started a cobble together and I'd interviewed several folks for onscreen talent, was connected with Austin, and actually our first client was an existing client I had, we just hit our year mark and my point person there and I had discussions. So it was more of like an upsell.
Devin Pickell [00:42:26]:
And yeah, it's going great right now. And I really believe, like YouTube is, it's one of the largest search engines out there already, but it's only going to continue to grow and I think it's such a neglected area for b two B. There's so many ways to capture searches on YouTube still.
Nick Bennett [00:42:47]:
Yeah, YouTube is probably the most unique channel because it's really the only fully mature intent or search channel. And Discovery channel. They have YouTube shorts that gets billions and billions of hits per day. And they have the search side of the platform which gets billions of searches a day. And no other platform really has the attention of users in the same way. Like LinkedIn, just doom scroll it. Instagram, mostly. Doom scroll, though.
Nick Bennett [00:43:19]:
Some people use it to search stuff now. TikTok, just doom scroll. Some people use it to search stuff. But for the most part, all of these different channels have their purpose. YouTube is like this very unique beast in that way. So I'll be interested to see how that evolves and how SEOs start leaning into these other channels. I'm sure that's already stuff you're thinking about.
Devin Pickell [00:43:48]:
Yeah, they're going to have to. Google's only going to continue to evolve and it is. YouTube benefits from being. You could drive just as much traffic from a Google search onto your YouTube channel as you can organically ranking for a YouTube search. It's one of the few platforms out there that have the benefit of being discovered in so many different ways. You may see on the occasional how to search. TikTok is starting to show up. But you know, who knows what the future of TikTok is in the US at least.
Devin Pickell [00:44:24]:
So shorts has really seen like preferential treatment and search. I think YouTube SEOs are just going to have to evolve. I think I'm sort of on the front of that now. But there's, it's a wide open. It's wide open for the taking, for b two B at least.
Nick Bennett [00:44:38]:
Oh, yeah. B two B is like perpetually like about 50 years behind, like on anything interesting or fun that we do when you're not pretending to be business Nick and business Devin. All right, man. So looking back at this last year and some months, what's something you would have done differently?
Devin Pickell [00:45:00]:
I got two answers for this. I think on the boring answer, figure out accounting and the business technicalities a lot sooner than I did. It's just going to save your ass. Come like tax season and everything that comes with being in the solo world, paying taxes, I would have definitely figured out ways sooner for me to like, I guess reduce tax liability, but also push the envelope with like my own budget. Again, I mentioned, like, I could be sometimes more on the risk adverse side. So like, you know, I get my hat about like company budget when reality, it's like, these are different ways to garner attention for yourself. So I would say on the boring, just aside that number two, and this is still something I'm working on now, is like, remember to market the business. It's not just Devin the freelancer.
Devin Pickell [00:46:03]:
I may be solo and have a contractor here or there, but it is like a business and I have to keep reminding myself to treat it as such, developing the website and staying true to that and not letting content sit stale for six, seven, eight months. I picked up a TikTok channel and had a couple hits early on, but client work always found its way to take priority, as it should. But I would say for folks either in my situation or maybe within the first four to six months, it's like, don't let your business get away from you because it's now something I'm kicking myself for is like, damn, if I would have stuck with my own site and kept on the content treadmill that I was and promoting, who knows what it would have been in that year span because I'm applying all the best practices I have to my own site, to my own brand, and that sort of has fallen off. So those are two big things. Figure out the inner workings of taxes and business and legal and all that good stuff and just protect yourself, but also like keep marketing yourself.
Nick Bennett [00:47:20]:
I hear you on the accounting and finance side 1000%. That's definitely something that most, most people, you're not alone. And this is taken. This has happened to me, this has happened to a lot of people that I've worked with and spoken with on this one. And especially on the don't stop marketing the business. That's a tough one for, because everyone knows they need to be doing it. But like you said, life gets in the way and work gets in the way and serve the clients you have takes priority over try to acquire the next client. And it's a tough battle.
Nick Bennett [00:47:56]:
It's like, how do you plan your business to support both things? So it's tough. It's tough. And I don't think there's, there's no one size fits all answer to it, but it's like being mindful of it and making sure that you don't lose sight of it is something, I mean, for me, I mean, even just doing this show was my way of really trying to make a commitment to continuing to market my business and to continue making a commitment to learning from more solopreneurs and talking with more solopreneurs on a regular basis. And so while sometimes not the easiest thing to do, to manage all the clients and still host interviews and edit the show, it's like, it is the forcing function that I find is necessary to ship the work. And I think the creating a forcing function is really, I think the main thing that has helped me break that barrier. I tried like every Friday I'm gonna publish a newsletter. It's like that didn't work. Like there was nothing holding me accountable.
Nick Bennett [00:48:59]:
But if there's no podcast, I don't know. For some reason I felt like that was a huge mess and I couldn't have that gap in the, in the library. So forcing function is definitely it. But dude, you're really, you're really passionate about this work. And I can tell just by the way that, like, just from all of the stuff that you've done, you wouldn't continue to do this if you weren't. So I'm curious, why is this so.
Devin Pickell [00:49:25]:
Meaningful to you, especially now and the solo life? Getting to like, work directly, I would say, like, I have some decent sized clients, but I really thrive. I love working with startups and getting to work directly with founders and like, working for startups in general, you have a bigger impact. But like, I feel like, even more so now, working hand in hand with some of these founders and, like, actually starting to see, after months and months of grinding away, like, oh, you know, we're starting to, like, see some. Some growth, and it's, like, really starting to. Everything's starting to rise and, like, come to a head, and that is, like, so satisfying to me. I don't know. That's, like, the biggest dopamine hit and, like, just getting on the hype train with folks who are super passionate about their businesses. I feel like this level of exposure exposes me even more to that, just feeding off that energy of helping folks find that growth and getting excited with them.
Devin Pickell [00:50:28]:
And I would say, I come from a sports background. I played baseball in college. I am a very competitive person. And so when I'm, like, good at something, I just want to, like, keep getting better at it. And so, like, when I've developed these skills and kind of sharpened them over the years, like, I just only want to keep getting better at this. We talk about this, like, the zero sum game of, like, so competitive where you're like, screw everyone else. I gotta be the best. It's like, no, like, I just want to be, like, I'm always holding myself to, like, the highest standard, and to me, that's exciting.
Devin Pickell [00:51:05]:
Like, this is, this work has, like, been, like, an avenue to push myself professionally, but also personally.
Nick Bennett [00:51:14]:
That's awesome, man. I can tell. I can tell that the fact that you got as far, you talked about getting as far as final round interviews and not giving up on this and building this, I can tell very much that you give a shit about this work. All right, dude, let's end here. Let's. What do you want to build that you haven't built yet?
Devin Pickell [00:51:40]:
I would love to. I would love to. I mentioned, you know, I kicked off a TikTok channel talking actually about, like, hey, you know, working in public on TikTok of, like, this is my experience any given day of being, like, a solo person. I would love to hone my skills of being more of, like, an on screen in front of the camera out there in the world, kind of, you know, like, that exposure therapy of making myself uncomfortable because, like, I'm on the other end of it. You know, we were just talking about YouTube. I'm more of kind of that back, you know, behind the screen talent. I want to be, like, out there. I know, like, I could push myself to do that.
Devin Pickell [00:52:26]:
And I do think this is the future of how brands are going to be built, and I do want to see that through. And I do see it as kind of my next personal goal is to just get myself out there more.
Nick Bennett [00:52:40]:
You're not the first person, you're probably the fifth person to mention something along the lines of being on camera. And that is an ambition and a goal. A lot of people point to YouTube like that. You pointed to short form and TikTok and stuff. But, yeah, a lot of people have a similar ambition. I think there's a huge opportunity for all of us to get more comfortable and more confident in prioritizing that aspect of how we grow our businesses, because it's on the forefront of everyone's mind to get more confident in that area versus writing. There's very much a barrier between everything about you and the things that you think when you're writing versus when you're sitting there on camera feeling very vulnerable, very exposed. So, yeah, I'm with you, man.
Nick Bennett [00:53:35]:
I have a similar ambition.
Devin Pickell [00:53:36]:
I was just about to make a LinkedIn post about this, of how blogging important it does remove that level of criticism. You know, like, comment sections aren't really a thing unless you're, like, a journalist for the New York Times or, you know, Vanity. So there is that barrier, that protective barrier for ourselves from. From outside criticism versus on video, on social platforms. As you build an audience, you're gonna get. You're gonna get shit on at some point. And it's like, can you. Can you take it and, like, you don't have to respond.
Devin Pickell [00:54:14]:
Can you just, like, block that out and, like, just stay true to yourself? And I think that's a big barrier for a lot of us, too. It's like, you know, at the. At the moment, I received slightest criticism, like, I I back down, not saying for me, but, you know, it does, like, play a factor, and a lot of our hesitants.
Nick Bennett [00:54:34]:
So, yeah, a lot of people are very hesitant to hit publish on. On even things like LinkedIn posts because they don't want to get destroyed in the comments. And it's, like, funny. It's like, LinkedIn is, like, the nicest of all social platforms, like, hit publish on the wrong thing on, like, on Reddit or TikTok, and you're gonna get. Then you really get destroyed. That's how you get roasted. But I. Man, dude, this has been a ton of fun.
Nick Bennett [00:55:00]:
Devin, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. I know for a fact more people feel seen because of it. So thank you very much for coming and jamming with me today.
Devin Pickell [00:55:09]:
Yeah, thanks for thinking to me. Nick.
Nick Bennett [00:55:16]:
Hey, Nick, again, and thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this episode, you can sign up for the 1000 Routes newsletter where I process the insights and stories you hear on this show into frameworks and lessons to help you build a new and different future for your own business. You can sign up at 1000routes.com or check the link in the show notes. All right, this is the hardest hitting question I'm going to ask you. So what would be your last meal on earth?
Devin Pickell [00:55:51]:
I would say a nice, like 24 ounce bone in Ribeye dry aged steak. You know, like being in Chicago, we have the privilege of, you know, it's like one of the food meccas in the US, if not the world. I'm always on a, like a steakhouse grind bridge and I and some of our friends will, you know, plan like Steakhouse friend dates. So. Yeah, definitely like a nice ribeye.
Nick Bennett [00:56:18]:
I am with you on the 24 ounce bone in Ribeye. I want that thing, but I'd get it Pittsburgh style. You know about Pittsburgh style?
Devin Pickell [00:56:26]:
I don't know Pittsburgh style.
Nick Bennett [00:56:27]:
Next time you go order it Pittsburgh style. And it's basically like super seared. You can get it medium rare still, but it comes with some crazy crispy crust and it's like perfectly temp.
Devin Pickell [00:56:39]:
Yeah, I wonder how they do that. They probably like smoke it first and then like sear it to finish it off.
Nick Bennett [00:56:45]:
I would imagine it's like a reverse searing situation. They char that bad boy and it is the superior way to order a ribeye after eating many, many ribeyes. It's my favorite way to go. So give it a try. Let me know what you think.
Devin Pickell [00:56:59]:
Yeah, I'm intrigued.