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Scottish politics dissected from a left, pro-independence stance. Each week, award-winning broadcaster and journalist, Lesley Riddoch chews over the week’s news with co-host Fraser Thompson. If you like intelligent, quirky chat about Scottish society and culture, and Scottish, UK and international politics analysed from a Scottish perspective; this podcast is for you.
Fraser (00:01)
Well, hi folks, and welcome to this week's Leslie Riddick podcast. ⁓ Leslie, I think we need to start with all of the kind of breaking news stories, even if they're not necessarily anything to do with Scottish politics. But ⁓ after the weeks and months of rumors and ⁓ you know, we can't tell you who this person is. But by the way, page two, you'll see that David Williams has ⁓ had his ⁓ you know, all his books pumped or, you know, his had ⁓ his
David Williams' land at Alton Towers has been permanently closed, et cetera. ⁓ where today had the announcement that ⁓ he is the celebrity who tried to have an injunction against publication of allegations of very serious sexual crimes ⁓ against ⁓ young people, grooming girls as old as ⁓ sort of fifteen and sixteen, ⁓ and then following th them through ⁓ and grooming them over a period of time to eventually having ⁓
sexual liaisons with them and when they were seventeen. ⁓ and then of course in the last few days we've also had the dreadful ⁓ Russell Brand ⁓ trial concluded and ⁓ his sentencing yesterday to ten and a half years imprisonment.
Les (01:17)
And then there was the discovery that it was Al Said's Al Fayed's brother, the Harrod's boss, had also been sort of procuring girls who were sent up to the Highlands, you know. ⁓ yeah. And and kind the thing is, ⁓ well, with you know, David Williams stuff, and here we are again, he was he was accused of abusing his position to pursue women, and this has got such bells ringing, you for the Jimmy's Jimmy Savile stuff, ⁓ through the family T V show Britain's Got Talent.
Fraser (01:26)
And drugged and yeah.
Well, children, to pursue children.
Les (01:46)
And at his p former publisher Harper Collins. ⁓ so you know, it's it's kind of so many that of course Channel Four ⁓ employed and seem to have sort of looked you know the other way with God, sorry, my brains just come just that we thing you said there, just stop, stop my brains. Right.
I've completely forgotten everybody's names now. Jesus, this is desperate. No. That's it. Yeah. Okay. Right. I'll I'll read that bit again. I was literally just reading from The Guardians. So they had said pursue women, but you know, so fine. I'm just really re reading from them. ⁓ yeah. And indeed, you know, it's it's the same old story that, you know, Williams was accused of abusing his position when he worked at Britain's Got Talent to basically pursue young young women, girls.
Fraser (02:14)
David Williams, Russell Brandt.
Les (02:40)
16, 17 at the time, and his former publisher Harper's Collins. And these are all, you know, ⁓ then there's Channel 4 when with Russell Brand, he also worked for the BBC. These, these are all, you know, part of the establishment. They look like the kind of media version of, you know, MS that'll do night or that'll do nicely. All these slogans that suggest a corporation is squeaky clean that somehow it's, you know.
n nothing nasty would be happening here, that these people are grown-ups, they take their responsibilities seriously. And a guy swanning through there, particularly in the wake of Jimmy Savile, I mean, God, you know, at all the kind of ⁓ i investigation there was and breast beating about it and whatever, that nothing could like this could ever happen again. And it seems on so many different fronts, as soon as you get a guy who's successful and basically, you know, packs in audiences and sells books
Everybody will look the other way. I I mean I'm I'm looking at there's there's so many accounts now, you know, there's one particular guy who'd written about how he had been ⁓ notified as a reporter in 2013, actually about Russell Brand. And it just the problem of trying to do anything about it, massive. And this he won he wanted to publish because he wanted people to he wanted to respond to the suggestion that why is it taking so long for the women to actually come forward?
And he's kind of simp making out making the point that if you're going to take ⁓ you know, the c if there could be defamation hanging over anybody who makes an allegation like this about someone, and in defamation in Britain, the onus of proof is on the person accusing. So you have to basically prove them guilty, and ⁓ that proof is very hard to obtain. So that's why it took him so long from twenty thirteen.
To try and encourage some of the women to speak who it took decades. And so here we are now. Nobody surely can think that this is just a you know, this is an incredible lineup of of all sorts of hitherto very respected, funny, there's the other thing, funny guys that, you know, were basically hide again, hiding in plain sight. There's that phrase that I'd hardly ever heard until
it became one associated with this kind of sexual predator stuff. ⁓ and you know, it it it's it's also the case with Russell Brand. He actually I I didn't like him particularly, so I didn't follow all the ins and outs of what he, you know, he he did as a performer. But when you see the the the bits of his show where he's basically sort of joking about raping women, it's it's quite extraordinary. And even there's speculation now that his morphing from a kind of bit of a lads mag kind of
Guy into a bit of a lefty, you know, he set up a group called Revolution. He, you know, he he he embraced community causes and so on. Was that just another way to try to kind of put a front on what had happened before? You know, you you've got to question almost everything now about this guy and everybody wanting to believe him. You know, it was kind of such a good story that a wild child like him could look like he'd morphed into a bit of a lefty, bit of a sort of religious what's it? And
Everybody just sort of thought that's fine. And really, ⁓ we've we've got to get to a stage here where it's not just kind of guys who who are successful and who can sell stuff, who can stand up and sound like they're convincing, who are charming. i none of that gives you the right to tr to to trump and I hate to even use that verb these days, but anyway, everybody else's rights, you know, women's rights, girls' rights, older people, we're all here.
You know, and and kind of we all matter. And I wonder now for the broadcasters how they'll look at who they are putting forward now as kind of, you know, the presenting talent. Yeah, I suppose on one hand, people will argue it might make them extremely cautious. On the other hand, you just cannot let people rip like this and and expect to get away with it. No matter how long it takes, these guys have come a cropper.
Fraser (06:55)
And you know, it this whole idea that i it's easier to sort of cover it up or smooth it over than sack the star, ⁓ hopefully needs to be moved away from. ⁓ the idea that ⁓ you know, not causing any media for or having to explain why you've dispensed with the services of somebody means that you can allow them to keep perpetuating these types of crimes is all the more shocking. And I suppose a bit like ⁓ laws that require
⁓ pleased to be notified in the cases of ⁓ childhood sexual abuse where organizations become avail aware of them. ⁓ it's the type of thing where you think that the the the liability surely must be greater heaped on these organizations. Actually, if you've been seen not to do anything and you keep rehiring this guy, you are are somehow at fault as well. I mean there was that dreadful stuff with brand at the BBC, which I think he resigned
over rather than ⁓ face an investigation. ⁓ you were talking also about the defamation laws. Russell Brandt did sue one of his accusers ⁓ for defamation and she was handed a gagging order by a judge in order to pay him fifty grand ⁓ for making these allegations against him and then was ⁓ this gagging order prevented her or our understanding of it at least was that she then was prevented from repeating the allegations, including to the police.
Les (08:21)
Mm-hmm.
Fraser (08:21)
So, you know, it's just a kind of shocking, shocking system.
Les (08:24)
And I've got to say, you know, even even on tremendously modest ⁓ stories, newspapers now that have got far fewer resources and whatever else generally are getting very nervous about anything that looks like it could be litigious. And if someone looks like they're going to go going to to take ⁓ action against you if you you know, if you dish the dirt as it were, ⁓ and if you've got all these provisors, the difficulty of the bar being quite high when it comes to, you know, the defamation.
⁓ issue, you you know, you're gonna look at something like this and just it's gonna take really, really an awful lot to get it over the line. So, I mean, of course everybody will say, and it's perfectly true, that the women who just doggedly decided they were going to make this public are absolutely to be praised. ⁓ but the Guardian and ITN also, and perhaps working, you know, off previous other freelancers and so on, you know, if they hadn't decided to
make this an issue and hung on in there, which they clearly have done for months with this one, waiting for all sorts of legal remedies and appeals and so on to exhaust themselves before they could name who they were ready to name clearly, months, absolutely months ago.
Fraser (09:41)
Yeah, and obviously that in itself has been a a big story and w what how all of these different rights is right to life under ⁓ European Convention on Human Rights ⁓ arguments against these matches being published and the judge being asked to to weigh that against the freedom of expression of the newspapers, but actually also the freedom of expression ⁓
rights of the women who wanted their story to be told and who wanted to make these allegations. ⁓ and ultimately the obviously the judges come down and ruled that it's not ⁓ for individual judges to to make the assessment regarding that individual's propensity or or likelihood to to complete suicide because he's claiming suicide ideation as part of his defense or part of his arguments that these ⁓ matters shouldn't be made.
in public, but this has been a very kind of long, drawn out, complicated affair.
Les (10:43)
Indeed. It and it is I mean it it's sickening. And on the other hand, it since it was true and it's been there in the public domain, it is good that this sort of stuff has come out, although very depressing when you listen to all the women's groups that have been interviewed on this, you know, it's not like things seem to be getting a whole lot better. Looking at the British stats, there's basically seventy five thousand rape offences they reckon in the year to December twenty twenty five, which was the highest since records began.
Around two thousand, ⁓ around two thousand charges for rape that year. So that's they think seventy-five thousand offences, charges were raised against six thousand. So that then the trouble is that's a self-perpetuating thing, isn't it? Because when you see how few people speak publicly, it does deter others. ⁓ and w when you listen to some of some of the women involved
⁓ it j you know, it's just I mean, everybody knows all of this, I think. You know, this is the the the horrible thing of it. You know you're not going to be believed. You're not even when the women were talking about how they were when they did try to speak to people, even their own work colleagues, everybody just looked mildly embarrassed, like, you know, b you basically y they didn't believe it, and they were sort of embarrassed and made awkward by it being raised publicly. So I guess the only thing you can say is for everybody, this sort of stuff, if it does come anywhere near you,
needs support and the the I guess the judges need to think about the the kind of framing that was done in this case, which was to try and get some of the right myths out of the window. Basically, that needs to be there permanently. And women will keep voicing up, I think, over this one, over these three. And perhaps there'll be more. I mean, that's three that have happened pretty much in the space of two days. So it's a moment.
Fraser (12:34)
Absolutely. ⁓ back to the artists and broadcast union ⁓ have do have a a helpline on on these matters and they've been doing a lot to challenge the culture within the media ⁓ and media organizations. ⁓ and I think we'll surely see more of that to come. And the the ⁓ UK culture secretary certainly seems to be indicating that as well. It's difficult to know how to to move on from that story, but I I think it was important for us to
To at least discuss it because it is breaking just now, although it's kind of slightly off topic for us. one of the things, just to hark back to something that we've talked about, I think this is the third time now. Sales of ⁓ meat, tinned meat and water ⁓ went up exponentially, sales of hand sanitizer went up 83%, sales of water up 67%, and tinned and jarred.
Foods climbed 37% in the 10 days after the government's Be Ready Emergency Preparedness campaign launched on the 22nd of October. Am I just hiding under a rock? I've still not actually seen any actual campaign. I've kind of heard about a campaign being got up, but still not actually touched me. ⁓ and I went on today to look at the ⁓ Scottish end of Be Ready, and it took me sort of 10-15 minutes worth of clicking to finally.
Find the bit that said you need nine bott nine litres of bottled water per person and three days of uncooked food plus copies of your ⁓ personal identity documents and ⁓ any medication you might need and a spare walking stick and batteries for your hearing aid. But that was stats just out today, certainly suggesting that ⁓ there has been an upsurge in ⁓ purchase of of tinned goods.
Les (14:13)
Right.
Fraser (14:23)
⁓ so there's a lot of luncheon meat and tuna being ⁓ purchased and stockpiled just in case.
Les (14:29)
Yeah, all right. Well, I g I guess I should yeah, that well thank you for raising that 'cause that also has gone right past me. Although as I say, our c you know, our community hall, whatever council got sent some film that we were all supposed to sort of show and watch. I don't know if it's even been put on yet. But I just suppose for people of a certain age and I met, ⁓ who who remember three day weeks and sort of you know, the general having stuff and actually to be honest, people who live in communities like me, I I'm looking at the moment at
out at a cooker whose clock is hopelessly wrong, ⁓ a printer that has gone off again because there's been three power cuts since last time I used it. So when you live at sort of in the sticks, you tend to sort of just have a kind of weather eye on what you've got around you. But those are very good points actually, so fair enough.
Fraser (15:20)
Indeed, ⁓ this all ⁓ is either real or illusionary ⁓ potential crises that we might be you know up against ⁓ coming to the fore again today as ⁓ US military aircraft which were on their way ⁓ from the US to bases in the UK were diverted off unexpectedly to Germany because there was supposedly a threat.
against them from Iran if they were to land at RAF Middlehall. ⁓ other things have been moved to Spain and all over. There's a build-up of of military equipment going to the Gulf, but it's apparently definitely not going to do another strike on Iran because Trump says that he's kind of over that after the midterns. ⁓ it's very difficult to see what is going on. Is this a another one of these
bluffs that they put out to the Iranians so that they're not expecting something to happen. ⁓ there the the ongoing militarism that there is in the world ⁓ doesn't seem to be abating, although Trump has obviously had a a severe doing in the US midterms, ⁓ as a result of the Iran war almost entirely.
Les (16:39)
Yeah, was that yeah I keep forgetting what day we've was was the we w they were the yet to vote, weren't they, the last time we spoke? Yeah, so basically, huzzah you know, that's we should perhaps we should a part apart from that this awful story with ⁓ with all all these guys, Russell Brandon, David David Williams and everything. Wow, you know, I mean I'm sure a lot of people just thought what a sigh of relief, basically, that some sort of something like daylight seems to have appeared.
Fraser (16:42)
So we yes, that was on the cusp. So we've just you know, we had that huge turnaround. Yeah.
Les (17:07)
In the kind of American psyche there. I mean, of course, you don't want to get overcarried away. Not ⁓ it wasn't a wholesale defeat, it was a pretty considerable one. And all the points people will have seen on the TV, the the new stars that have emerged basically on the Democratic ranks, really effective communicators, you know, it's just like a whole new legion of people. For sure they will, you know, pull the Democratic Party in all sorts of different directions. ⁓ but then how else would that be for
you know, in a country where with two massive parties, and that's all essentially there's ever been, you you know, they incompass perhaps a hundred million people in each party. You know, so there's bound to be a left, a middle, and a kind of right in the center of it all. The question will be how they manage to can could sort of control themselves. ⁓ many people have observed that Nancy Pelosi, who is the former speaker,
was very good at actually trying to focus the Democrats on issues they could all, you know, the bread and butter kind of issues and healthcare that they could all agree on rather than getting into the edges where they would begin to fall out. So there's all of that. There's also what what they actually do in terms of, you know, chasing people. And there's kind of it sounds as if, well, in fact it there is a a call for impeachment of ⁓ God, I'm so sorry.
Fraser (18:26)
Pete Heskith is being impeached today, ⁓ or is a call to impeachment by a Republican because of his dodgy ⁓ prosecution of the Iranian war, and is called ⁓ a press conference where he's going to rebent ⁓ defend himself robustly. Currently has the support of Donald Trump, but of course that can evaporate pretty quickly. He sees himself as a a loyal foot soldier of the
president ⁓ doing the president's bidding and executing the president's international foreign policy. ⁓ but ⁓ people both within the Republican Party and with the Democrats ⁓ not particularly impressed with his ⁓ track record at the Department of Defence, or now the Department of War as he would prefer to call it, and he's being ⁓ facing impeachment ⁓ proceedings starting today.
Les (19:18)
And the thing about that actually is it's it's a Republican ⁓ that started the ball rolling on that one. So, you know, that that's really quite something because that's obviously his own side. You know, the the just now that maybe there's a kind of consensus that he's going to be the sacrifice ⁓ to save well, he if it can be done to save Trump's reputation. But you know, Pete Hegsith looks it does look like his days are numbered. But then so, you know, what happens next? I mean, clearly with the appointment of Stephen Miller, who was the
Fraser (19:24)
Yes.
Les (19:48)
Ch he's now the chief of staff, who was the architect of the whole horrible sort of stuff that led to the ⁓ the kind of persecution of of minorities in in America. ⁓ he's basically beyond the pale, that guy, and has just been brought straight in as a kind of get it up yet to everybody else by Trump. Okay, I got beaten, but look, I can install this guy. And then who is it even this this guy who who's the chief the heed bummer of the the you know open
Whatever it is, their wrestling competition. He ends up being invited in for some sort of post and looks like he was actually quite embarrassed and totally isn't going to take it up. so it it's kind of, you know, again, commentators who who who bother ⁓ will will give you snatches of what Trump's actually saying in his in his speeches. And because you, you know, you're trying to edit, you haven't got much time to go through it all.
They're ending up having to summarise what are completely mind-blowingly crazy rant rambling rants now. I mean, I know everybody knows that you can't he can hardly get a couple of sentences without talking about his ballroom and all the various, you know, his curtains. And ⁓ if you go on the social media, he is absolutely lampooned for this obsession he seems to have. He's even tried to change the law so that the gold ⁓ fi fittings he's put in the Oval Office.
cannot be removed by any subsequent president, which is kind of if that's all you're worried about, it's absolutely it's it should be terrifying that that
Fraser (21:20)
Also, if you're the type of person that thinks that you can change the law in order to prevent people from, you know, ungluing the god awful bits that you've sort of stuck to the wall, do you not think the other person who has executive cognizance as the incoming president can change the law back again, going, get rid of this crap? ⁓ it's just ludicrous.
Les (21:39)
It's extraordinary. And I mean, there's no part of that behavior that speaks to anything other than just absolute narcissism and a complete distance from any kind of reality. And meanwhile, of course, there's all such big things going on, you know, with the situation in Iran and these, you know, the these kind of forces that are moving there. I think I was listening to the The Beebe this morning.
And Frank Gardner's their security correspondent said that the level of firepower that's being moved there, if it was directed against Iran and Iran would respond, would be catastrophic for the world economy. So that's where we are today. You know, if if he f if he kind of feels like it, of course, as you say, he said, look, bygones and we need to try and he's got the message that the war was one of these big factors. It's interesting looking at the coverage though, the war was a big factor, but another one which
we we need to come on to is AI, because you know, so many people have basically said this was the AI election where it candidates had actually stood, Democratic candidates, on a kind of anti-AI basis and and very emphatically won on that basis. So, you know, you'll you'll see doubtless that the stocks, the share value of ⁓ a lot of AI companies crashed pretty much in the wake of that. It may have picked up a bit since.
But the bubble looks like it may well have burst. I mean, immediately the next day, the Wall Street Journal was saying there's a two point five dollar trillion AI reality check sort of com combination of words slammed together that only the Americans put, but still a probably a headline. ⁓ and that that was one day that they lost three basically three trillion dollars. So, you know, people are i now looking, it's not just sort of would we
Is it saying that kind of we we need to sort of divest ourselves from AI? No. But the types of way that AI is set up, the size of the data centers, all of this is basically up for grabs now because the Democrats pretty much have ⁓ a mandate on it. I mean, Abdul Al Sayyid, who was elected, I think Michigan, wasn't it? He's wanting a full on pause ⁓ in that.
There's just look down the list. There's just everybody has committed themselves very strongly to this. And then here we are.
Fraser (24:05)
Certainly in a sort of state by state competitions on arguments against data centers. ⁓ and I wonder, you know, what that might do for us for the council elections coming up next year. ⁓ you know, as you say, this was a kind of real move against certainly the infrastructure of AI, ⁓ if not AI itself, but also looking at the potential impact on the the US job market.
Les (24:30)
Yeah, but but all of that, but it's also, you know, the it people will have seen whatever they they want to see. But I mean it's the amount of it's the amount of resources that are being used by by this these the centers. ⁓ and I was listening to a really interesting phylon four that was looking at, you know, the AI here i in in Britain, and what they found was there's four new data, huge data centers in England actually, that are pretty much got the go-ahead.
They all say they're planning, you know, their their ideal is to get in renewable energy powering them. But when it comes to the bit, the investigations they've done discover that they're they're basically building new gas powered stations. ⁓ partly because and here we go, the grid isn't strong enough, and the r renewables aren't aren't kind of round the clock enough. They want something that's absolutely predictable, power flick of a switch, energy. ⁓ and it looks as if
⁓ you know those that gas fired power station will create more CO two than the cities of Manchester, Liverpool and Southampton combined. So that's if you're worried about this, and you know, even though we're sitting with COP thirty one going on at the moment, it looks now as if there really is, you know, folks speaking out of the side of their mouths on this because, you know, the one moment everybody's accepted now that we've crossed this one point five degree warming threshold.
We know what's happening in terms of climate change, and yet even the host nations, Turkey and Australia, have got they're still using coal, you know. ⁓ so it it's kind of like it this it looks like this will march on. And into the midst of all of this ⁓ trotted Alan Smith, who is the Scottish Government Minister sort of with responsibility for this, who made some really kind of
you know, ⁓ typical Allen remarks actually where we talked about people being like, you know, Luddites essentially when they were opposing this sort of ⁓ technological advances. And i it's a lot it's a just a lot more than that. And it comes on the back, I think, having been having been listening to communities talking about battery storage plants that are based on peat soil that can't be put out and haven't got plans ready for any kind of fires, which could, you know, technically
Be a huge, huge problem. Substations that people have campaigned against, which were always going to get approved, wind farms that are approved, ⁓ and essentially we then end up as consumers paying for them to be switched off because the grid isn't in place to take the energy. When the energy finally does hit the grid and gets sucked off south through some subsea cable we've already paid for.
There's no mitigation of the extraordinarily high prices you're paying locally. So that actually that's the backdrop into which this new problem comes. And it's kind of like for a lot of people, they've been warming up on the previous ⁓ protests over this kind of extractive economy that we seem to have to just accept and the lack of genuine power to do anything about it.
And then in walks the AI centres, and that for a lot of people is kind of like the last straw, really. So I I wonder where the Scottish government is on all of this, because i I think they'll be walking a pretty difficult tightrope. And just by the by, Womer, I was looking at also ⁓ because so much of the energy goes into cooling the data centres, underwater data centres, and who knew, but the world's first on that one was Orkney in twenty eighteen.
And ⁓ so that Microsoft actually invested in that. It seems to have been a remarkable success. It was called Project Natic. And ⁓ it seems that it had one the underwater center had one-eighth of the failure rate of land-based counterparts because there was reduced exposure to human error, corrosion, and temperature problems. It was powered entirely by renewable energy, it was naturally cooled by seawater, it had a reduced carbon footprint, blah blah blah. But
It was dropped in 2024 because any physical repairs meant bringing the entire unit back to the surface. So this is the problem with all marine energy, that trying to do checking, maintenance, whatever is really difficult because you can't just walk out, check it, and walk back in again. And so that got dumped, but it seems that underwater data centers, China of course, is in the lead with that and is really going some on it.
So they've already got now the world's first wind powered underwater data center, and it started operating in June. So I don't know, you know, there may be stuff coming yet that is ways of trying to get around this, but I I just think the Scottish Government needs to watch. They're not really hitting a very bum note with that sort of belittling of people who are very worried about the amount of resources and assets that are being stripped from yet another multi million pound.
probably foreign owned set of companies.
Fraser (29:41)
Definitely. I don't know if it ⁓ was just the headline of whether it was a direct quote, but ⁓ Scotland needs to embrace AI technology and trust the country's planning system to allow its potential to be released was the the top line of the BBC story. And I can't imagine many folk sitting in the Highlands ⁓ looking at SSE's pylon route or ⁓ any new wind farms or anything else will be very much on board with the idea that you just need to let the planning system do its thing and
Don't worry your pretty little head over it. So it didn't sound like the type of careful intervention that you might want to have made. Or again, it doesn't really feel to lots of people a bit like the other infrastructure that there is a kind of cohesive national plan, ⁓ where things are being kind of zoned and planned out, ⁓ and you know how much you need. ⁓ and it's not just a whole massive pipeline of speculative nonsense that's been, you know.
put up to see what sticks against the wall and you go into battle against a data center that's not really actually ever going to come off. So yeah, more on that, I'm sure. And talking about valuations and what have you, Anthropic is ⁓ looking at its ⁓ initial public offering ⁓ coming later this month ⁓ with a potential of one point one trillion to one point three trillion ⁓ valuation.
down from the 1.5 trillion to 2 trillion that was being discussed earlier this month. So the kind of 14% being knocked off the value of these stocks. I think the AI bubble, if it's deburst, has got a lot more to to burst ⁓ what seemed to have been priced in or corrected for in the last couple of days, as you say, was the the idea that the Democrats were actually going to be much more open to regulation of ⁓ AI in of itself.
⁓ whereas Trump of course just wants everything to be a kind of market free for all and see what happens at the end.
Les (31:42)
It's also the it's it's the tech bro thing, isn't it? You know, that it it looks like all the big pals that ⁓ that Trump has has has has allied himself with, and we haven't even really talked about cryptocurrency, that one you can sling in as well. So all the kind of new tech technological ways to sort of extract wealth, those guys have all been lined up behind Trump. And so the growing th you know kind of anger about corruption and
I mean, it's an extraordinary tribute to people's intelligence at last. And the fact, I suppose, that they're just being hit, you know, when it comes right down to it. ⁓ people that perhaps were even tro pro-Trump maybe still pro-Trump and actually approve of quite a lot of his other horrible sort of anti-human behavior, are finding themselves paying far too much for their for their petrol, basically. So that that kind of, you know, affects quite a lot of thinking.
But still, it's a great tribute to them that despite Elon Musk set spending millions of dollars, you know, to try and drip feed poisonous crap basically into people's minds in Texas in particular, it didn't work. So, you know, there's there's a mo there's a mood sitting in there and the kind of corruption thing strong. It's it's again coming back to that. It's how the the the Democrats do play that because it's tempting to go down the the line of trying to impeach everybody. And it's interesting the Republicans started on Pete Heggsith.
Fraser (32:48)
Okay.
Les (33:08)
But what people now expect them to do is to try to to really concentrate on the cost of living stuff and trying to stop any further interventions in Iran. And of course that will be a difficult one. They don't come in actually until January. And that's why the Republican guy has managed to do this, because he's he's still in that seat until January. So he's using his last couple of months basically ⁓ i in situ to kick this this action off against Pete Hegsith.
But anyway, there's there's also the stuff going on about, you know, all the stuff going on about oil. I mean, this is another one where the SNP have sort of jumped into seem to have sort of jumped into the middle of things when John Swinney basically seemed to be opposed to ⁓ the the the new stance from the ⁓ from Labour government, which is saying there should be no new drilling in the North Sea. They're okay with licenses already awarded. We're still waiting for Rosebank.
But John Swinney spoke in First Minister's questions when he was asked by Malcolm Offord about this last week, ⁓ and basically said that, you know, oil and gas licenses, new ones should be possible. I mean, there's an awful lot of people pretty pissed off about that. I did see a remarkable piece actually in the Herald with somebody coming to essentially his rescue, one of the ⁓ column co comment writers, who was saying, Well, basically the SNP have always sat on the fence about this. They're not saying they're gonna back every
proposal that comes their way. ⁓ and they may yet not approve of Rosebank, who knows? I don't know. But you know, we shouldn't be basically thinking this is a wholesale move. They've just c had to come off the fence because the Labour government's come off the fence. So and of course, where the public are with that. Polling says suggests that SNP voters are split evenly on whether we should be trying to get all the North Sea oil out or we should be trying to meet net zero. It's
Forty three percent, this is SNP voters by the way, forty three percent get the oil, forty percent meet net zero. So it's it's exactly, you know, split. And the wider public, however, are about sixty percent get the oil. So here we are.
Fraser (35:23)
Absolutely. But it does kind of speak into what the the SNP under John Swinney are trying to to say and the kind of the kind of wider policy position that the SNP are trying to take and that obviously have been ⁓ walking somewhat of a tightrope ⁓ more recently, ⁓ as opposed to to Nicholas Durgeon's very kind of strident ⁓ positioning on North Sea oil and gas. ⁓ does this reflect
A need to t to maintain votes in the North East? Is it a a kind of genuine economic position? And does it ⁓ really a a reality check on just transition and w where these people are currently employed in all of the service sector and the accountancy and everything else that goes around North Sea oil and gas ⁓ go to and how the the position that we're in now is very different to how we might have been if Scotland was an independent country. The
other Gulf states and what have you, oil producers are ⁓ spending a lot of money diversifying their economy. So on the full knowledge that oil and gas can't last forever and it won't last forever. ⁓ but we lack the a lot of the economic levers to do that. We also lack a lot of the income. So whilst this ⁓ you know, extractive economy will have taken place over the last sixty, seventy years, ⁓ you've not got many tunnels through mountains to show for it on the flip side.
Les (36:49)
And it depends how people hear that. I mean, the the the ⁓ the SNP said about this and about this apparent change of stance, the Labour government's bill would see history repeat itself, with Scotland's renewable energy future ruined, industrial jobs lost, and profits siphoned off to Westminster. Yep. That is intolerable. Westminster has admitted Scotland should have a one trillion energy wealth fund and we cannot let them play the same trick twice. Every penny of revenue from Scotland's oil and gas
should be invested in Scotland and into renewables development. So it feels a little bit like basically that was such a powerful slogan back in the day. It's Scotland's oil. ⁓ it's still kind of, I think the SNP think there's still mileage in that. And the absolute, it makes you bite the carpet knowledge of how much we've missed. So I think they're trying to capitalise on the fact that Labour put a number on it, you know, the one trillion and
And they're trying to showcase that that's exactly how much Scotland has foregone by not being an independent country. But hanging on to that figure basically hangs on to oil. So i you know, if we're going to stick with that, and if it looks like there's still a way to kind of, you know, we we're still saying, look, we want our money out of it because you didn't give us it the first time round, it's still it's still based on oil and gas extraction. And I mean, even the official statistics that were published last week.
suggest that by the end of the decade there will be no additional revenue coming from oil and gas fields at the moment around Britain. That's mostly our fields. So this one is it's kind of on its way out. ⁓ I I know that's easy to say when it's still a big industry and employer and ever and all the problems we've got and we're not in charge of rolling out the alternatives and it's not coming fast enough and there's not as many jobs, all of that. But it's still the case that
You know, for the public, we might well have moved on. I've certainly moved on. So I I I I mean, it it was of course, I mean, having done all the stuff I've done in Norway and standing, I can remember yet standing at the oil museum in Stavanger when I made the film in 2019, looking at they had a ticker thing in the museum showing the wealth fund ticking up. And it, you know, it we could hardly film it actually because it ticked round so quickly, it kind of blurred.
And I remember at the time, you know, we could also had to kind of widen the the shot so that we could get all the numbers in. And it absolutely just made you bite the carpet. But here we are where we are now, I just think we've got to watch what we're kind of hanging on to in terms of arguments. And where we are now is we you know, whatever you whatever you say and whatever you're trying to do politically.
y you must acknowledge that the UK government will take absolutely no notice of any of this and any approval that there is for more drilling will just basically put more money into the UK Treasury and that's not going to you know it's not going to change until we become independent.
Fraser (39:55)
No. Talking about indeed, talking about proposed changes though, and ⁓ wealth from renewable energy, ⁓ there's been suggestion that instead of sort of hypothecating to gathering up all of the ⁓ business rates in the country and then redistributing them through ⁓ block grants back from the Scottish government to local authorities, that local authorities themselves
should be allowed to retain ⁓ at least 50% of their non-domestic rates, with the suggestion that areas which were hosting wind farms would see a significant net benefit and that regional councils would be incentivized to grow the economy because they would see a a direct payback in the the increase in business rates.
Les (40:44)
Yeah. ⁓ it's it's a it's a a kind of think tank called bigger and ⁓ that's their proposal. They're they're saying that in England councils the new you know, new proposals will be that they do keep fifty percent of business rates growth. Now you can unpack every bit of that sentence. But their proposal anyway is that there's gonna be seven practically eight gigawatts of new onshore wind needed to get the Scottish Government's target.
That would be about seventy-eight million pounds in business rights because it's onshore. And they then figure out that if since most of that would actually be in rural areas, particularly the highlands, if they were able to keep a proportion, half of that, ⁓ it would make a huge difference to council areas and ⁓ that are s are totally struggling. So the places who would basically do very well the Western Isles, Murray, Argyll and Dumfries and Galloway, South Lanarkshire.
And Glasgow, Edinburgh, Dundee, and Aberdeen would receive none. Now that's kind of possibly pretty hardball. There's definitely, you know, this poverty to deal with everywhere. But that's an interesting proposal. And ⁓ at the moment, you know, the door's not being completely shut on that, but you'd have to say, with all these proposals the Scottish Government have come out with with regard to local government reform, it's like chasing a shadow actually, trying to find out what the heck's going on. ⁓ Ivan McKee was on ⁓ the Sunday show.
this weekend and it sounds like they've been asking him to come on for weeks and he's basically given them the bums rush but did did appear this week week. But I mean honestly nobody can land a blooming glove on Ivan because he talks nine to dozen for starters. He'll just keep saying that they're listening to all proposals. So any problems that can be thrown their way will be something that they're going to be looking at. ⁓ they do say ⁓ that there apparently will be a p a portal
set up for the public to be able to say what they want because I mean, as we've said before, this is an unbelievably ki well, what you say, shabby way of saying that you're kind of doing any consultation because it's so ad hoc and just seems to depend on whether people's got people have got Ivan's email address. ⁓ so that apparently there'll be something more formal put in. We should have had a wee look and seen if that's popped up yet. But I mean it's we're still time's eaten away. This was a three month consultation. We must be
There must be just about a month of it left. ⁓ and there's definitely, you know, everybody's starting to wake up now to what's really being proposed. So I still think it would be a miraculously wonderful thing if somebody just thought, you know, we've rucked the ground up, we've got everybody talking, we need to just do something different with this because whatever they propose, come up with now, they will get pelters for. It needs it the the the whole thing needs the added ⁓ sort of stamp of
of authority and approval that would be gained by putting it to a citizens' assembly. But, you know, this is not a government that seems to do things that way. And the the what's developing as well is is basically the the kind of ludicrousness really of setting up any new system with a council tax that relies on valuations from the last century. And you know that if the SNP is stuck in a position where they have to back that, because
The y the line seems to be there isn't un unanimity on how to replace it. I mean, come on. There was no unanimity about a lot of things. And I appreciate there'll be upsets, there'll be losers, all of that stuff. But if you're going in and about the structure of government like this, I think you need to decide you're going to do a full renovation. You know, you can't stop when you hit a bit of laughing plaster that looks a bit dodgy and think, let's just put the wall back on again. You know, you need to really go for it now.
Fraser (44:38)
Absolutely. And ⁓ our podcast extra with ⁓ discussing all these matters relating to local government reform is going out tomorrow to subscribers. So it's ⁓ definitely worthwhile checking in on that, which deals further, deeper into these topics and whether it is possible to do the two things separately. I've just had a look. I can assure you that there's currently certainly not showing any recent consultation on ⁓
local government reform. There is some information or consultation about laser ⁓ razor clams, ⁓ onshore electricity and how the Scotland's Tax Authority ⁓ communicates with you. ⁓ but currently nothing about local government reform.
Les (45:21)
Yeah, although I I think it there was a suggestion it would be some special portal, which might just be Ivan's email address, but anyway, I don't know.
Fraser (45:28)
Well, I I bet you anything that goes in there will ⁓ be looked at and carefully considered and then you might be ⁓ asked to fill in the real form later on. So ⁓ I I wouldn't necessarily jump to do that.
Les (45:38)
The the the other thing that's on the go that I I've noticed has been sort of bubbling under and we just haven't dealt with is the business of sort of councillors versus council officials. That's probably too much of a shorthand for it. ⁓ I will put the link in in here. It was covered by the Herald. Basically, there are four councils that are now challenging ⁓ the notion, well, the Standards Commission basically over well, it becomes quite kind of complicated. But
The the the basis of it is that one councillor, Fiona Higgins, in Glasgow, faced scrutiny over social media comments about proposed cuts to teaching posts at the council. And ⁓ she'd used freedom of information requests and then publicized that and challenged the way that the proposal's been handled. And basically the Standards Commission says you can't do that. And I'm hearing that all over the place actually from folk who are counsellors. This
woman is a Labour councillor, but I've heard that from SNP councillors here in Fife. Same problem, ⁓ which basically is you you you know, this is to try to to stop, as it were, bullying of officials and so on, but it's got to the stage where it looks like one person she had said, the public loses when counsellors are afla afraid to challenge those in power. Elected representatives must be able to ask difficult questions and receive a fair hearing.
But that seems to be ⁓ kind of difficult at the moment and there are four councils who want this to be looked at. ⁓ so I you know, let's see what happens on that one.
Fraser (47:14)
Although I mean again, I felt that really the local government minister or somebody else should have been a a bit out ahead of this, saying actually we're hearing these concerns. We know you know this was a judicial review that this woman had to take ⁓ against the Standards Commissioner for Scotland because ⁓ she had not been allowed to lead certain evidence ⁓ in her ⁓ favour because they arbitrarily ruled it out. and the the judge, I don't have it in front of me, but essentially.
Said that this kind of defeated the the ends of natural justice and that she absolutely ought to have been able to lead this information. Allied to that is the fact that she had to take a Freedom of Information Act request out on her own council in order to get the right information out of council officers. And it's now been exposed that ⁓ this ⁓ reduction in teacher numbers or reduction in ⁓ budget, which was going to consequently mean there would be a reduction in teacher numbers, had been kept from
councillors or had been kind of tucked away into an appendix a note on the the budget report that they were ⁓ due to vote on rather than being brought to their attention. ⁓ and she noticed it and ⁓ challenged it and it turned out that actually the this guy's colleagues had ⁓ raised concerns themselves that this was an inappropriate way to put the information in front of counsellors. So she had criticized the
finance guy at Glasgow City Council about the way all of this information had been presented and kind of accused him of of shenanigans or chicanery in the way that this had been done. But because she's criticizing an individual ⁓ member of staff or she's ⁓ criticizing council officers generally, and because she had released privileged information, albeit that she had received it in a ⁓ a kind of genuine way and a in a publicly publishable way because it was under the Freedom Information Act.
⁓ then she was hit up against the the standards. And we seem to hear this quite a lot about people having robust challenge against officers, which then ⁓ becomes a kind of question of bullying or harassment or false foul of the the standards. It's difficult to know where the the correct line should be because equally you don't want some kind of ⁓ buffed and tufton counsellor ⁓ haranguing folk constantly that are just trying to do a decent job in their council.
⁓ and trying to sort of p shoot political holes things through things that don't actually require political holes to be shot through, ⁓ and putting your your ordinary staff under huge amounts of pressure and stress isn't actually improving the the outcome of the council. but that something really needs to be looked at in the way that the standards authority is is set up.
Les (49:52)
It's true.
More generally, I mean d you know, ha I I'm I'm I'm on I'm on a story that will come out next week, which relates a lot to local issues. And so in the course of those conversations, I mean though th there does seem to be a worry around the place that basically councils are being run by officials and you can elect counselors, but they have absolutely no ability to do anything. ⁓ maybe 'twas ever thus, although I suspect not, and I'm sure that our our councillor listeners will be in touch as they always are.
To to correct this. But I mean, that's not okay. You know, we elect councillors and we we it's the same way as if we thought the civil service and the you know that allegation happens often enough as well, that the civil service is running the country instead of elected politicians. And that is, you know, that worry is sits beneath an awful lot of what happens, particularly with all the energy stuff we've just been speaking about. So, you know, that yes, that that's a very live issue.
Fraser (50:58)
Indeed. Talking of ⁓ robust scrutiny, ⁓ there have been complaints in the past that ⁓ SNP members do not ⁓ do the type of scrutiny that they ought to do against ministers. ⁓ but there was a fairly robust exchange between David Linden and Justice Minister Neil Gray over a recent riot at Polement.
⁓ where the MSPs were informed or or learnt about it through the press rather than through a a statement to the parliament.
Les (51:29)
Yeah, and I mean aga okay, yeah, I guess you would but you would look at an awful lot of the generally unionist papers are applauding David Linden, who is an SNP ⁓ MSP, ⁓ but a very robust committee chair ⁓ for basically not being a nodding donkey to to quote ⁓ Alex Neal, who was the health secretary, and complained w back in twenty twenty three that too many backbenchers were were nodding donkers donkeys and he singled out his own party for particular criticism. Well anyway, y
David Linden is certainly not a nodding donkey. And ⁓ this this riot that nobody heard about was ⁓ September the twenty-sixth. There was a riot that happened in ⁓ Pullman prison, basically, and the committee was left to find out about it from a report that came out, I think probably a month or perhaps even longer after that. ⁓ so David Linden was really kind of giving Neil Gray quite a kind of tough time.
And said the idea that information like this would be concealed or withheld is a gross discourtesy to Parliament. You and I both served as members of Westminster and rightly went through Tory government ministers for not providing that kind of information. And, you know, so that that's and that's what should be done, actually. And I think again the SNP need to watch this because i if that's there's one kind of problem that looks like it happened sort of in the tail end of the summer, and just if it didn't get much publicity, it might go away.
⁓ there's still that pro you know story lingering about the problems with the gas system within the dual fuel ferries that Stephen Flynn wasn't briefed up about, however he wasn't briefed up about it. But you know what it just it takes one or two of these ones before it just starts to make it look as if peop you know, ministers are just kind of trying to not come clean. And geez, it it's a one heck of a problem still. I mean I I was involved with the prisons commission that was set up in two thousand and seven.
Here we are 20 years later practically, and you know, we've still got prisons that are absolutely bursting at the seams, and all sorts of difficulties that we occasionally hear about, which may have contributed to the pressure. If people are locked down and locked in two to a cell for 22 hours a day, all that sort of stuff sits behind that riot potentially. And there's the planned early release. All all of this sits behind that, and it's doubtless one that's complicated.
But it has to be gone through, so you know, all power to Mr Linden's elbow.
Fraser (53:56)
Yes, and I'm sorry to say I think this ⁓ represents a kind of positive impact of having SMP MPs lose their seats and come back to the Scottish Parliament and shake things up a little bit, having seen the kind of robust way that ⁓ Westminster committees act, which is sadly in a bit of a contrast to what was supposed to be a more powerful committee system at
⁓ Hollyridge. So we will see where this goes. It also feeds into the story this week that committee chairs are actually going to be paid now for their chairpersonship of committees, which I have to say I was very surprised that wasn't the case before. And there's been lots of kind of tuting and why do these gravy train gits need even more money to do whatever. But if you're a committee chair, I can assure you you're doing considerably more than any of your other backbench colleagues.
And ⁓ you're not doing the the same job. This is very much in addition to your your other role. so it would seem reasonable that they should be paid for it and also that that then becomes an alternative route for some people that rather than becoming a junior government minister, you can become a paid committee chair and you can put a lot of energy and effort into that.
rather than thinking I don't want to become a committee chair because it means I will never be able to become a government minister because they'll see me as some kind of desperate troublemaker who's always asking awkward questions. So it will hopefully ⁓ improve the the committee structure further Holly Riddens ⁓ again a welcome move by the the new presiding officer.
Les (55:35)
Although, you know, I know 'cause you worked I maybe we've got different histories here. I guess some people will still think though I mean so you're basically saying that people should get essentially a bit of of of kind of compensation for knackering their career as a minister.
Fraser (55:49)
Well, I mean, I think that's the principal reason that they're getting paid and that the reason that there that there's been a a small salary uplift to to to recognise the fact you're committee chair is because you're doing ⁓ something in addition to being a a backbench MSP.
Les (56:04)
Yeah, well, okay.
Fraser (56:05)
But certainly, you know, i it's always argued at Westminster that you know, an alternative route, if you were a kind of high flyer or you're particularly assidious and hardworking ⁓ MP, one of the things that you could do would then be to come a committee chair. It doesn't it's not making a huge amount of difference, not ⁓ a fortune you're getting paid, but it gives you prestige and it gives you a a role and a responsibility beyond simply being a backbencher.
⁓ and it ⁓ you know gives an outlet to some other ⁓ talented people.
Les (56:39)
Mm-hmm. Can we talk about we never did dealt with the outcome of the Israel elections, which was because there hasn't really been an outcome until it's still it's still sort of hanging in the balance. But the the the rival to Netanyahu, Gaddy Isencott, has been asked to form a government. ⁓ if you look at the profile of his beliefs, I don't know that anybody is kind of that cares about the foot fate of Palestine is throwing, you know, anything in the air and singing hallelujah.
But nonetheless, he is currently ⁓ trying to form a government. It looks quite difficult because actually there's a coalition needed. And in fact, Netanyahu's party, Paul Moore, has got more seats. ⁓ but he's been tasked with that, trying to put together a government, and they've got to manage to do it within twenty-eight days. ⁓ so we wait to see what happens. But the kind of interesting thing in it was that the Palestinian par parties within Israel
actually did f fairly well. I mean, apparently the Arab parties and the Arab led parties won a record number of seats. So, you know, i th the I doubt there's any way that they will be brought into the negotiations or any coalitions. And yet there was nineteen seats won between the various Arab led alliances and they could hold the balance of power. So it's a long way to go yet on all of this, ⁓ talks wise, but just thought we would
Sort of just check back in on that.
Fraser (58:13)
Yes. ⁓ I mean it's a very slow moving process and ⁓ a really ⁓ kind of fractured parliament with lots of of of different types of parties and very difficult, I think, for us as outside outsiders to really get into without having a a a a more in-depth knowledge of it. But they now have this ⁓ period in which to to form a government or call new elections. ⁓ I suppose it would also be interesting to see whether or not having, you know.
Dimit office as a Prime Minister, does it ⁓ mean that Netanyahu's more at risk of prosecution for some of the fraud and corruption that he's been accused of, ⁓ setting aside the the allegations of of war crimes and and genocide?
Les (58:57)
Yeah, for sure. ⁓ meanwhile, just as well, ⁓ that there's been a petition that Jeremy Corbyn launched that's been rumbling away in the background, which is basically calling for ⁓ a full public inquiry into the UK's role in Israeli operations in Gaza. It's now reached a hundred thousand signatures. That means it will be considered for a debate in the UK Parliament. you know, whether it will actually happen, you kind of doubt, don't you? I mean, I don't know. Do you know how how much a hundred thousand
signatures means in terms of it finding its way into debate? And will it just happen on Friday afternoon when there's nobody there or what?
Fraser (59:33)
It'll be a Westminster Hall debate. ⁓ so the So it'll be it's this it's the smaller chambers. It's not in the the ⁓ main body of the House of Commons, it's in Westminster Hall in a in a committee room or a large debating room upstairs there. You'll see that on on other types of of debates that are called by members rather than by the government or the or the opposition. so it's an extra space for for allowing more discussion. So it will then have
Les (59:36)
What does that mean for the rest of us?
Fraser (1:00:00)
met its ⁓ requirement that it has been debated, but it means that a government minister will have to respond and people will be able to to kind of see that and it'll be it'll get publicity, but obviously will not have much of an impact in terms of overall government policy or changes of direction.
Les (1:00:18)
should say as well you'll see the the stories in the national ⁓ that Andy Burnham's got ⁓ got a firm that's involved that was involved in the tr in the Gaza Riviera madness that Donald Trump drafted up. that that firm apparently is helping to to draw up Andy Burnham's 10-year plan. ⁓ so you know there's criticism from that point of view be that that that American firm beat
BCG, which for again, for us of a certain age, just brings a certain injection or vaccination to mind. But anyway, this American firm ⁓ was behind those, you know, Riviera of the Middle East plans, which which was effectively ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. ⁓ so that will you know, will that get a focus? Who knows? Because it looks as if that sort of agenda is is is dropping back, despite the fact there's still, you know, there's still a lot of public protest on it.
And a focus on the Scottish Government who've got another firm ⁓ who I think are we've mentioned before, who are you know part of the shortlist for building ⁓ I think a light rail system in in parts of Jerusalem into settler territory. ⁓ they're still on the cards. And I think the union involved has actually, you know, I can think of of stories about that. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ which is I mean wh why? Why?
Fraser (1:01:36)
Buy these trains if you want to, but we'll not be driving them, pal.
Les (1:01:43)
You know, why does it matter so much to have on a short lead, you know, a c a company like that when that you know there must be others available and you're just walking into the accusation of double standard. If the SNP so weren't concerned to to kind of keep trying to put clear blue water between themselves and the Westminster government on on every front, as we've talked about before on the, you know, on the missed out well oil fund, blah, blah, blah.
This one is actually far more at the forefront of a lot of people's minds and the kind of notion that the Scots had got a bit of moral authority in this but first of all on the stance on on kind of net zero and then on the stance on Gaza and Palestinians, is all getting eroded by just stupid kind of r r reluctances to kind of take take somebody off the list. Now I don't know, I mean maybe you do, that once you've got somebody on a short lead or even maybe before
it's it's become a big p you know point of publicity. They could come back at you if they're taken off the list because of something to do with, you know, with a bad profile of their involvement in Israel. Maybe there's a worry amongst the legal folk who seem to have disproportionate influence in every government, and particularly the Scottish one, that they could come back and have a go at you. But I mean, really.
Fraser (1:03:03)
Well, the Scottish Government is not shy at ⁓ taking forward legal action, which has no hope of winning, as we've seen in recent times over a whole range of matters. ⁓ so I I can't see that that's a particularly strong argument. I think this certainly is the case, almost undoubtedly, that this is a a procurement decision and someone in procurement has said no, it would be we don't have a lawful basis to take this out.
⁓ but the gov Scottish government has a a stated policy aim that ⁓ it is not supporting firms with links to the ⁓ unlawful settlements in the the West Bank. So I don't see why it couldn't. And also it might as well do something like this and make it a test case. The courts may find that it didn't have a lawful basis on for doing it, it would then no and it could petition the UK government to change wider law or it could change its own.
regulations on the back of the ⁓ the outcome of the court case, just simply sort of ducking it 'cause it's easier and then you can't get sued. But don't worry, we'll probably find a way of scoring them down legitimately so that they don't end up ultimately winning it and causing us a huge headache. just seems like a a road that could have been travelled ⁓ and that might have had benefits.
Les (1:04:13)
Yep, that would be a strong move, you know, absolutely. Instead of just always pulling your punches.
Fraser (1:04:23)
⁓ so yep, I think that it would be much better just to have ⁓ gone for it fully ⁓ and seen what happened.
Les (1:04:32)
Indeed You're hovering, my dear, your bra has your brain stopped.
Fraser (1:04:34)
⁓
No, no, sorry. I think we had a bit of a ⁓ temporary connection issue there, but that seems to have resolved itself, hopefully. we're just at the hour, but really we did not have time to go into the ⁓ sort of developing schism that is ⁓ Scotland is an colony versus let's not talk about that, and there are other matters that are more pressing ⁓ and ⁓ going to be more fruitful.
Les (1:04:39)
What kid Okay.
Fraser (1:05:03)
in the road to independence than ⁓ becoming overly worried about whether we'll need to go through a decolonization ⁓ route or whether we simply need to persuade ⁓ majority of people or more than a majority of people in the country that being an independent nation would be better than remaining part of the union. But this schism seems to be ever growing and ⁓ kind of came back up again ⁓ after a a a podcast debate between
Rob McAlpine and Alf Baird, and I see Jonathan Chaffee writing in the the National today.
Les (1:05:38)
Indeed. I I mean you'd actually need a long time to get into all of this, which we now ain't got. ⁓ I mean it's an it's an interesting debate and the national are doing some interesting debate type podcasts on this. Again, we'll put the link in the notes. But I I I mean Robin's Robin's view is is is kind of probably well known, you know, that ⁓ the problem about talking a lot about referendums is
that that might not be the route that he thinks this will happen. Eventually we'll get to sixty percent plus. And he's talking about the most likely route being what he calls the tap on the shoulder. Now I know a lot of people think, you know, the shoulders of Westminster politicians are made of cast iron, you know, so you could tap them as long as you like and nothing'll happen. But you know, th that's Robin's view is just this the that the way that things will actually move is about the movement of public opinion.
Getting some sort of Deus Ex Machina kind of thunderbolt, look, you've been a colony and that's the end of it. You can just move ahead and the UK are now out of the process. Feels unlikely and feels like it is that sort of suddenly and with one bound they were free when we've still not quite won the the thinking about being in that position. And I know we we we had that podcast before with Sara Sarah Salyers and Craig Murray. There's
you know, there's another route that these guys are excavating and maybe that is worth having. But i it it's true that as long as you think there's some some magic bullet, as it were, that can be extracted from somewhere else, it possibly does take the foot off the pedal for what needs to happen here. On the other hand, there's so many impediments to to putting that pedal flat to the floor here that that may just be the very least of it. And there was an interesting column written by Jonathan Shaffy in the National. ⁓
Scotland's problem isn't colonialism, it's power. And of course, John is a kind of old lefty, basically. So he's got a Marxist analysis of all all of this, where he's talking about this being a class issue as much as anything else, the whole independence campaign, and that that's what sits at the base of it. The SNP were frightened of the power potentially behind class action in that respect, and that this is what needs to be acknowledged to be able to move forward. I hope I have n done some justice to a long, interesting column.
But actually the comments are even more just as interesting. There's forty-six comments on this ⁓ article already, and really interesting kind of stuff with people not just being nippy with Jonathan, but just kind of basically arguing about w whether or not you can always be putting a class imprint over what is a a nationalist movement. And it's well worth a read, actually. So have a look. The other thing, ⁓ just briefly, because I know we're
⁓ you know, those of you who just like your podcast, I mean, you can always just stop listening, but see you can't, can you? is Catalonia and Quebec. There's an interesting thing in Balakat Caledonia a couple of weeks back. We never had time to talk about it. Here we are with it fallen off the end again. ⁓ basically, now there's a piece written by Politico, which is set suggesting that there's going to be an election in Spain on November the 29th.
Fraser (1:08:34)
Don't stop listening, keep going till the end.
Les (1:08:57)
that and that it looks like the People's Party and Vox, the extreme right wing in Spain, will win. And it's predicting that the return of the Spanish right, and as their headline puts it, risks reigniting Catalan separatist flame. Now you can translate that into what an independence supporter might think. ⁓ but basically this could be things back on the go. ⁓
The the People's P the People's Party and Vox, PP and Vox have pretty much said they think that ⁓ the Catalans have have been sort of basically mocking the the the whole state of Spain. ⁓ there's been adjud an adjudication recently, which was a kind of ⁓ there was an an an armistice essentially put up for anyone who was convicted during the
all the violence that ⁓ followed most in most of it on the state side, ⁓ the Declaration of Independence in 2017, I think it was. ⁓ and that did see a lot of those ⁓ army folk kind of pardoned, but it also means that the exiled ⁓ Carlos Pojdemon, who has been living in Brussels for a very long time, will be free to come back actually and live in Catalonia at about the same time as the election. ⁓
It looks like his party were the tin lead on the hopes ⁓ of the ⁓ of Sanchez, who was the socialist, who is the socialist prime minister, of carrying on because ⁓ his party, Junts, voted against Sanchez and that basically has brought the government down, and that's what's prompted this snap election. It looks as if they're saying quite explicitly that they need to use the election.
to and and perhaps the the hard right winning in Spain to try to bring independence back up the agenda in Catalonia. ⁓ so there's a lot happening, you know, and although it's been quiet on on the Catalan front for some time, it looks like that will become an issue again ⁓ within the next couple of weeks.
Fraser (1:11:07)
Interesting. And we'll certainly be keeping an eye on that and how the the new Catalan government forms ⁓ when those elections come to the fore.
Les (1:11:16)
should just say as well that when it comes to ⁓ Quebec, the Parti Quebecois has won an election there and has promised another referendum within four years. So, you know, there's the is as and it was good for Bella to keep their eye on these things because lots of other people have taken them off.
Fraser (1:11:34)
Cool. Well, on that ⁓ more interesting international note, we will see you next week, chums.