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Welcome to the Wired to Lead podcast with Julia LeFevre!
Julia LeFevre (00:03)
Hi everyone, I'm Julia Lefevre and around here we talk about leading with clarity, rewiring our mindset and growing from the inside out. Tired of all the old leadership advice? Then you're in the right place. So let me ask you something. What if the real engine of a company's growth wasn't strategy or sales, but the people who make it run?
Today's guest, Shelly, has built her career around proving just that. As a senior HR executive, she has transformed workplaces by designing strategies that don't just improve operations, but unlock the full potential of people. From building HR departments from the ground up to increasing retention rates by more than 50%, to implementing systems that save organizations tens of thousands of dollars,
Shelley has turned HR into a strategic advantage for every company she has touched. So if you've ever wondered how to create a workplace where people thrive, productivity soars, and culture becomes a true differentiator, Shelley's story is when you will want to hear. Shelley, welcome to Wired to Lead.
Shelley Hernandez (01:17)
Thank you so much for having me on. really appreciate it.
Julia LeFevre (01:19)
Absolutely. So HR is your jam, it appears. And I just am curious what first inspired you to not only enter into HR, but to see it not just as an operational endeavor, but as a strategic advantage.
Shelley Hernandez (01:27)
Yep.
Well, that's actually a really good question. So I did kind of fall into it a little bit, ⁓ but I fell into it because I really saw so many problems with HR departments, problems within companies itself that just needed to be fixed. So I kind of got my start, I'll even say going undercover a little bit in different companies, some pretty big companies actually. And
Julia LeFevre (01:49)
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (02:12)
played multiple different roles. We talked about I have a background in stand-up comedy, I have a background in improv. So that was kind of a natural flow to go into something like that where I was working, I say, undercover. So I would go in and I would create some scenarios that may be an HR nightmare, create some scenarios that could potentially be an operational problem, but also then would look at
what they had going on within the organization and find the problems, find the flaws, find the potential lawsuits waiting to happen. And that is kind of how it turned into an HR thing because all of that was HR. I didn't really realize it at the time, but all of that was HR. And I really kind of grew to love it and realized, wow, this is something I could really do and do it as a full-time career. So then I started doing it specifically for different companies.
and fixing problems, creating HR from nothing, because some companies, even in this day and age, had literally had nothing. They didn't have a handbook. ⁓ That's a problem. So I would get those things going and get them fixed. And that's kind of how it all started.
Julia LeFevre (03:24)
Okay. Wow. So, okay, when you said that, so did you, you know, there's, was that TV show undercover boss, you were like undercover HR, or like the undercover bad guy, like not bad guy, you know, like, I'm going to come in with this issue, and we'll see how they handle it.
Shelley Hernandez (03:27)
haha
Yes. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, for sure. And in some cases I would come in as the other employees would think I was a new employee. So it really was very much like undercover boss before undercover boss was cool. Cause this was a really long time ago. And then I would, you know, I'd swoosh in and then I'd swoosh right back out and I'd report to the companies, all the things that I saw. Sometimes I did get to reveal myself.
Julia LeFevre (03:57)
Yeah
Shelley Hernandez (04:11)
⁓ but most of the time I did not. So I write up my, reports. ⁓ one of the biggest ones I did that was unbelievable was a seven day Caribbean cruise. So I was, I know I was brought on by ⁓ a major cruise company to come in and evaluate all aspects of everything that they did. And just see if there were problems, ask questions of people to see if I could not not lead them, but you know, just to kind of see if they knew their stuff and I would go in, I'd get into their.
Julia LeFevre (04:30)
Well.
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (04:40)
into their HR departments and I would go through files and look at things and see, you don't have your documentation where it's supposed to be. Little things like
Julia LeFevre (04:47)
Yeah.
So as you were moving through all these different scenarios, were there things that surprised you that you found?
Shelley Hernandez (05:00)
my goodness. Yes. Lots and lots and lots of things. I think some of the stuff, you don't even have to have a background in HR to know that that red flag couldn't be any bigger. ⁓ It wasn't on that cruise. It was on a different weekend thing that I did where within earshot of other customers, of other guests, hearing employees having completely inappropriate conversations.
Talking about another coworker's body parts was one. And if it's happening in clear earshot of customers, you know it's for sure happening in the back. So that was one that really shocked me. I think I maybe went into it a little bit naive thinking that that stuff didn't really happen, even though I had experienced some of that in my own, just in my personal life. ⁓ But to see that happening within earshot of guests, that was astounding to me.
Julia LeFevre (05:37)
the open.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That would be shocking. I imagine that the leaders that you reported that to were ⁓ not super happy with that.
Shelley Hernandez (06:08)
No, no,
and honestly, some of them were not really surprised. So I think some of them maybe knew that it was going on and did not know how to address it.
Julia LeFevre (06:18)
Yeah. So it's interesting because, yeah, so in the work that I do, I do similar things, ⁓ not quite so undercover, but coming into different teams and organizations and just helping to identify, you know, what's holding them back and trying to identify those root issues and then working through them. And one of the things I found is that
Shelley Hernandez (06:43)
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (06:47)
A lot of times leaders, do recognize some of the problems, but just what you said, there's a hesitance or maybe the action isn't taken because they aren't sure what to do. And so what role does HR generally play in that? How can HR kind of come alongside a leader to help them in those situations?
Shelley Hernandez (07:03)
Right.
Well, think the biggest thing is, well, let me say everybody thinks HR is always the bad guy and they're out to get the employees. They're only ever going to side with the company. That is not the case. If you are a good HR person, that is not how you run your department. That is not how you handle HR issues. ⁓ Every time that anything comes up, even in my current place where I'm working now, when something comes up, I look at it as a learning tool. So, and the biggest thing is the why.
Julia LeFevre (07:21)
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (07:44)
So why is it not okay for, and this will be an extreme example, for that employee to take pictures of another employee's tush when they don't know that it's being done? Why is that a problem? And I will always go into it and address it and say, what if that were your daughter? And you found out that somebody was doing that to your daughter. And then that always really does seem to kind of make the light bulb go off in somebody's head and go, well, know what? I never really thought about it that way.
That is the best thing I can hear from anybody when we're dealing with an HR situation is somebody to say, I never really thought about it that
Julia LeFevre (08:21)
because then you feel like, okay, there's some humility and some space for adjusting and growth. And if it was just simply that, then we can deal with that. ⁓ If it's more, if it comes or elicits more of a defensive posture or denial, then that gets a little more tricky.
Shelley Hernandez (08:28)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Right. And I think that's the biggest thing that HR people can learn is to also themselves not be on the defensive. Look at it as, I really am trying to help you. I'm trying to help you avoid a problem. I'm trying to help you potentially avoid a lawsuit. I'm trying to make you better.
Julia LeFevre (09:03)
Yeah, I love that because so much of what we do too is trying to create trust and it's really for one of the best ways to create trust is to be able to be for with ⁓ before and with one another. Like we're cheering each other on. We're working to support one another. And sometimes that means
Shelley Hernandez (09:24)
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (09:32)
pointing out something that's not in your best interest. So yeah. So before we kind of keep pushing forward into all this HR stuff, I'm just curious, tell us a little bit about just who you are and what experiences have kind of wired you for the roles that you play.
Shelley Hernandez (10:01)
Well, I think the biggest lessons that I've learned that have made me who I am and have gotten me to where I am is to know what I don't want to be. You know, I have not always been in a leadership role. You know, I've worked, I've, you I'm not, I'm not a spring chicken. I've been around for a while and I've worked at a number of places. And I have learned, I've had a leader everywhere I've been. Somebody has been my boss, obviously. And I have learned.
Julia LeFevre (10:11)
yum. ⁓
Shelley Hernandez (10:29)
If once I get into that kind of a role, I don't want to do that. ⁓ You know, I don't want to belittle anybody ever. I don't want to talk down to anybody ever. I'm saying those things because all those things happen to me. And I know what it made me feel like. So I know what it's going to make somebody else feel like if that's the kind of leader that I am. So I will not be that. ⁓ I don't like to be micromanaged. So why would I micromanage somebody else? But those are all lessons that I had to go through myself.
Julia LeFevre (10:33)
Hmm.
Shelley Hernandez (10:58)
to learn what not to do when I'm leading somebody.
Julia LeFevre (11:02)
Yeah, I'm glad you said all of that because so often we look at, you who can I learn from a positive role model? And a lot of people haven't had great role models. And yet the reality is that we can learn from anyone. Sometimes it's we want to emulate and sometimes we want to create an opposite effect.
Shelley Hernandez (11:16)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yep, that's true. And then I'll say too, through my formative years in my childhood, before I became a working woman or a working gal, ⁓ I learned a lot from not only my parents, but my grandpa. That man was an absolute saint. I will miss him every day until I'm no longer breathing. ⁓ He was the phrase I like to use, and I didn't realize that this is what he was until I got into leadership myself. He was a true servant leader.
Julia LeFevre (11:35)
huh.
and
Shelley Hernandez (11:56)
And that's what I try to do. look at, I say a lot of times in my head, well, what would grandpa do? And if it's something he wouldn't do, I don't do it.
Julia LeFevre (12:07)
⁓
What an amazing example to have growing up. I'm just curious, you know, do you remember a story or something that just particularly stands out about how he served those around him?
Shelley Hernandez (12:13)
Mm-hmm.
It literally was every day of his life. ⁓ There was not a moment when he wouldn't pull over to the side of the road to help somebody change a tire. And he did that like into his 80s. He was doing that. ⁓ He would bring food to people. He would cook and bring food to people. My grandma was like that too, but he was a little more mobile. So he was able to get out and do a little bit more. He ⁓ served as a deacon in his church. He was a member of the Knights of Columbus.
Julia LeFevre (12:35)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (12:57)
He everything that he did he did it with the servant's heart. It didn't matter how small it was It just it was the foundation I think for everything that I am as an adult is what I learned from him
Julia LeFevre (13:11)
It almost sounds like his leadership wasn't about him. It was about everyone else. Yeah. And that's the best kind of leadership when it's not to live up to a role or a title or to earn anything. It's to lift the people up who are around you.
Shelley Hernandez (13:15)
100%. 100%. Yes.
Right.
And my mom has even told me that he ran a soda bottling company up in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, if anybody's ever heard of that before. ⁓ And Sheboygan, it's a fun one. But ⁓ so he ran a bottling, a soda bottling company there. And my mom has told me stories about even how his workers, he'd bring workers home that maybe didn't have anywhere to go for dinner. So he'd bring them home and have them.
Julia LeFevre (13:41)
I just want to say it, shab-weeg-en. That's fun.
Shelley Hernandez (14:00)
have dinner with him. I mean, who does that? He did. ⁓
Julia LeFevre (14:03)
Wow, you
did, your grandpa. So no wonder what would grandpa do right now? Absolutely. Well, his influence seems to have rubbed off because you have had a lot of success in all of your different roles. And one of the things that really stood out to me was just your ability to increase retention rates by more than 50%.
Shelley Hernandez (14:08)
Yep. Yep.
Julia LeFevre (14:30)
So I'm currently working with an organization that that's their goal ⁓ is to just increase retention. And in fact, I met with them today and they, some of their people literally said, we have done so many things to try and help. We're hopeful that this will actually work. So it's a hard thing to transform that part of a company. And so I'm just.
Shelley Hernandez (14:35)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (14:57)
I'm curious, what do you think most leaders misunderstand about keeping their best people?
Shelley Hernandez (15:05)
Well, there's a lot of things there. ⁓ Retention starts with the interview before you even extend an offer. ⁓ You have to engage the person that you're looking at potentially bringing on board. You need to let them know why your company is where they want to be. You need to let them know what kind of opportunities they'll have that even though they're coming in in this role, you're not stuck in that role. ⁓
Julia LeFevre (15:08)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Shelley Hernandez (15:32)
And then it goes on to even the onboarding call where I'm at right now. ⁓ I work for a company called Baldwin Paving and we are a heavy civil asphalt company. So a lot of general labor, blue collar type work, a lot of young people. ⁓ Unfortunately, this generation of young people hasn't quite learned that kind of responsibility yet and you know what it's like to really put in a good full day's work.
So we try, where I'm at with my hiring manager, to set an example before they even come in the door. So she spends a lot of time on the phone with the new hire, even before they come in. Here's what to expect. Here's what we're going to do when you come in. Here's what we need to do ahead of time. So there's no surprises. I think one of the biggest thing that we've heard before we really implemented some of this from our candidates, because we will do exit interviews and we'll call.
Hey, you only lasted two weeks, what happened? And they'll overwhelmingly tell us, well, I had no idea what to expect because nobody told me it was going to be like this. And that is so easy to fix. mean, there are really no surprises in working out on the roadway. It just is. It's the same, pretty much the same thing. You can't control the weather, of course, but it's the same thing. You're doing the same thing. So there should be no surprises. So if we're doing our jobs,
Julia LeFevre (16:39)
So easy.
Shelley Hernandez (16:58)
as onboarding people and then also the hiring departments are doing their job in setting a realistic expectation. That is what has really helped us with our retention.
Julia LeFevre (17:09)
Okay, that's so interesting because, it's, I think what strikes me is that a lot of times I'm realizing the role of assumption in leadership that so many leaders assume that people just know and that they think like they do. And that is just not the case. And so,
Shelley Hernandez (17:25)
yeah.
Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.
Julia LeFevre (17:36)
When we can communicate and then communicate again and then as Lincioni says, over communicate and then over communicate your over communication, then it starts to eliminate surprises and questions.
Shelley Hernandez (17:47)
Hahaha
Yep. I mean, you know what they say about the word assume, you know, and that is, I mean, it's funny, but it is so true. It is so true. So that's what we do. We make sure that there are no assumptions. Everything is clear. Everything is on the table. Here's what we expect of you. Here's what we want you to expect of us so that we can keep people on board longer. And then I really pushed to the field guys. I always tell them,
Julia LeFevre (17:58)
Yes!
It's true.
Right.
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (18:22)
You want to move up, right? You want to be able to move up in your career, right? And they, every time, every single one of them says yes. Okay, who are you training to replace you? And a lot of times I'll get a, what? Well, who are you training? Cause you can't move up if somebody can't go into your shoes. So what are you doing to train the people below you to take over for you so you can move up?
Julia LeFevre (18:45)
Wow, what a great leadership development strategy that you're basically saying, hey, you know, and this is your interview. If you can train someone to take your place, then we're going to trust you to move forward. I mean, those are the kinds of people and employees that we need. Wow. So,
Shelley Hernandez (18:52)
Hahaha
Yep, exactly.
Julia LeFevre (19:15)
kind of bridging into that whole culture idea, how do you measure success beyond the numbers? ⁓ What do you notice in culture when you are going in to different workplaces? What are the things that stick out that become kind of warning signs? And then what are the things that stick out that you're like, yeah, this is a good ⁓ culture?
Shelley Hernandez (19:42)
Well, I'm going to go back to that servant leadership. ⁓ That I think is is the, the tell with a lot of companies. And unfortunately you don't see it very many places. ⁓ I can tell you the where I I'll, I'll say I'm 54 years old and where the company I'm at right now is the first place where I've ever experienced servant leadership. That's stunning. Isn't it? It's shocking. And you know, I've known it, you know,
Julia LeFevre (19:45)
and
Yeah. Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (20:11)
because again of the example that I've had growing up. ⁓ But that's really what it is. And you can tell pretty quickly if that organization has that and that that's one of their values within that company.
Julia LeFevre (20:27)
So how does that play out in your current workplace? For people who haven't, they've heard about it, they know about it intellectually, but they have never experienced it.
Shelley Hernandez (20:33)
Mm-hmm.
Well, I think for me, it's me, my, have to be that servant leader. You know, I have to be willing to, to, if somebody's out, ⁓ I'll, I'll give you an example. So, ⁓ we, the front desk at the, at my company reports into me reports into HR and. She may need a day off, you know, she may need to take some PTO. She's allowed to take PTO. so we have to get coverage for the desk. I can't ask my team.
Julia LeFevre (20:51)
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (21:09)
to cover the desk to help out if I won't do it myself. So, and that was from the very beginning when I first started, because it's position has reported to me since I've been here. That was the very first thing, I was the first one to go cover that desk. And one of the chief operator in the company walked by that day, he's like, what are you doing at the desk? I said, I can't ask my team to sit here if I won't sit here.
Julia LeFevre (21:18)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Shelley Hernandez (21:34)
And he literally said, that's leadership. I well, yeah, it is.
Julia LeFevre (21:38)
It is.
It's leadership for sure. And it's the kind of leadership that people don't experience because even he was surprised. You what are you doing here because senior leaders don't sit at the front desk?
Shelley Hernandez (21:48)
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (21:59)
but senior leaders should sit at the front desk, right?
Shelley Hernandez (22:03)
Yeah.
And now, now I don't want to say it's only because of me doing that, but I think part of it with seeing me do that now, when my front desk person needs to take a day, a bunch of people like, Hey, I'll cover. I'll jump in. No problem. I can help out. And something it may be my AP manager that does that. She has a million and one things to be doing, but she'll take the time to come up and cover that because we're helping out our front desk person to be able to have the time off that she needs.
Julia LeFevre (22:31)
Well,
yeah.
Some of what we Brave Restoration really promote is connection and collaboration, kind of this mutuality that we don't care about rank and title. Everyone's valuable. And so the fact that everyone's willing to step in and now it's become something that people do voluntarily is just a testament
Shelley Hernandez (22:45)
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (23:05)
to this culture of collaborative ⁓ mutuality that we're good with this. Nobody's too good or too bad, whatever, to be able to have to force people in a sense to do that really is beautiful. And I imagine it creates such a sense of safety in that workplace because people know that the team has their back.
Shelley Hernandez (23:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes. Yes, 100%. And it's not just that example. I mean, it happens all over the company. You know what mean? Are we perfect? No. But it happens. It happens in a lot of places. Which is really, it's really refreshing.
Julia LeFevre (23:42)
No, yeah.
That's really, that is refreshing.
Yeah, so what do you see? So this was kind of a positive ⁓ example. What do you see, what mistakes do you see either in the past or have you seen even from the place where you sit now that you see organizations making when they're trying to fix things like turnover, culture?
Shelley Hernandez (24:20)
I have a really good example of that. at one of my former places of employment, this was retail. I was doing HR in a retail place. The district manager, for whatever reason, did not care for me because I'm very, I don't want to say forward, but I'm very honest. And I'm from the Midwest. I grew up in Milwaukee. We're very blunt people.
Julia LeFevre (24:30)
Hmm.
Shelley Hernandez (24:48)
I'm not going to sugarcoat it. realize here in the South, I'm in the Atlanta area now, I realize in the South, you have to be a little bit more careful. I'm trying to learn that. It's difficult for this Midwestern girl to learn that. But she just did not like me because I was just so honest. And it was shocking to me that if somebody was late getting there and I would address it and saying,
Julia LeFevre (24:59)
You
Shelley Hernandez (25:17)
I understand you relate. Let me tell you why that's a problem and how that affects the business and go into it. I wasn't mean about it. I was just very open and honest about it. And some people are unfortunately a little too soft and they can't accept that kind of feedback. So she had it in for me. ⁓ she, which shockingly, she herself was like that. So I'm not exactly quite sure how
Julia LeFevre (25:39)
you
Shelley Hernandez (25:46)
It got her so riled up that I was like that, but it was definitely a personality problem and a personality clash that I had with her. And it just led to a very toxic work environment.
Julia LeFevre (25:54)
Yeah.
You know, a lot of times we are shaped by our past experiences and what feels normal and okay to one person. For example, you're saying, you know, we're from, I'm from the Midwest. This is just how we are. My experiences shaped me that this is okay. And then that comes face to face with someone who grew up
Shelley Hernandez (26:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (26:27)
with the experiences that that is not okay. And all of a sudden that subconscious limbic system flips into a stress response, fight or flight, and that can create more of a trauma stress response, which we've said, I always bring out my brain. So I'll bring out my brain for those of you who are watching, for those of you who are just listening, just picture a brain.
Shelley Hernandez (26:40)
Mm-hmm.
Hehehehe
Julia LeFevre (26:57)
scan from the side and the smart part of our brain gets shut off kind of separated from our automatic response system and there is no logic. There's no rationale happening. It's just a, don't feel safe. I can't do this, which always leads to toxicity. And even that word can be very triggering for people, but
Shelley Hernandez (26:57)
Hahaha
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (27:25)
What toxicity is, it's sick, right? It's like an infection. Doesn't mean that it's bad necessarily. It is bad because it can lead to bad things, but it just means there's this wound there that needs to be addressed. And if the wound isn't addressed or the root issue, then you just have to part ways.
Shelley Hernandez (27:31)
Mm-hmm.
Yep. And I can even think back to an experience. I mean, this was probably 35, almost 35 years ago. One of my first jobs out of college ⁓ had an incredibly toxic boss ⁓ that also too, just it was not, I know now many, years later, it really wasn't anything to do with me. But at the time, you know, just had it out for me and would
Julia LeFevre (28:01)
Hmm.
Shelley Hernandez (28:19)
regularly pull me into her office and just berate me. I mean, made me feel like this big. And that is again, that's one of the experiences that shaped me into saying, I'm never gonna do that. If I ever get to a position like hers or higher, I will never do that. And I mean, I'm talking to you about it almost 35 years later. So obviously it made a lifelong impact. ⁓
Julia LeFevre (28:43)
Yeah, one of the things that I was sharing today with a client is that we have five core human needs. And most of us can point out the first four, food, water, shelter, physical safety. And the one that most of us forget about is relational belonging or connection, relational safety. And it's
Shelley Hernandez (29:07)
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (29:11)
That's the part that gets stored in our subconscious. And so when people directly assault us in that space, say, you know, berating us, making us feel like you are bad, not just what you did was wrong. ⁓ It will activate our stress response and it stays with us for our entire lives.
The beautiful thing is that the new research is showing that we can rewire some of those memories where if it had had power over us when we were younger, we can rewire it to kind of update our brain's operating system so that we can admit like that was painful and it's not true. And I'm not gonna let it have the
the weight that it used to have. And yet it's still a very present idea that we have to fight against.
Shelley Hernandez (30:17)
Yep.
Right. And I think I've chosen to use it as an example of how to be better. You know, I tell, I mean, I tell my kids all the time, you know, when something happens, or if I mean, I'm not perfect, if I do something and I don't make a good decision, and they'll call me out on it, which I appreciate, I'll tell them, well, use this as an example for you later to be better.
Julia LeFevre (30:24)
Yeah, how the fuel change.
⁓ yeah, that is awesome. Yeah. So I hear you really having a desire to unlock the potential in others to help draw both yourself too. Like I wanna do better, but I really want those that I'm leading to do better. And so I'm just curious, what are some ways that you interact and lead to be able to accomplish that?
Shelley Hernandez (31:12)
Well, one of my direct reports right now, ⁓ she came to me asking for mentorship. And you know, somebody is going to ask you for mentorship, you are not going to say no. So she asked me for that. And so I wholeheartedly accepted that. And then I had to figure out, OK, how do I do that? ⁓ So I chose to, we kind of created our own little book club.
Julia LeFevre (31:35)
Huh.
Shelley Hernandez (31:41)
And we're reading the book of joy, which is the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Tutu. And it is, I mean, I am learning so much about myself through this book, learning so much about her through this book. We're very different. And, you know, we, take little highlighters and we highlight the sections of the book that spoke to us as a reading the different parts. And sometimes they're the same. Most of the time we don't pick the same stuff.
Julia LeFevre (31:41)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (32:10)
And so then we'll talk about that. like, well, why did you pick the what? You know, I read right over that line. What made you highlight that? And so it's really getting, think, into getting her to open up, getting me to open up. I'm very uncomfortable in a small setting talking about what like what hurts me. ⁓ I've put up a very big wall because of just, again, from the past, it's some stuff that's hard, so hard to let go. ⁓ But this book is really
Julia LeFevre (32:37)
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (32:40)
It's helping take some of these walls down and pull some of those wounds off that hopefully they can just be gone forever. And I don't have to think about this anymore.
Julia LeFevre (32:51)
Wow, well, and what we know about the brain is that you're doing all the right things to do that because what our brain need is not, I mean, really the book is just a gathering tool. It's the catalyst for the process of rewiring, which is people coming together to have interactions that are vulnerable.
Shelley Hernandez (32:58)
We're trying. ⁓
Mm-hmm. It's the catalyst. Yeah.
Right,
right.
Julia LeFevre (33:18)
I
imagine that as you're talking, certain things come up and you can process through it with someone who's okay listening and that that practice is accessing this limbic system, the amygdala, the hippocampus where all of those deep memories are stored. But this time, as you recall them, you're having
Shelley Hernandez (33:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (33:44)
actually a positive experience that you're sharing this with someone, it becomes a connecting experience, which updates that part of the brain to say, okay, that was still sad, but now it's almost redeemed or restored into this connecting experience. And it rewires your actual neural networks that are holding those memories.
Shelley Hernandez (34:15)
Yep. And I think it's working and it's working for me and I know it's working for her because she also has a very hard time talking about pain in her life and she's doing it and it's a lot of stuff is coming out. You we've had some tears in these meetings, ⁓ but it's also feeling very freeing to be able to let go some of this, I'll call it baggage, ⁓ you know, that I've been carrying around for decades, really.
Julia LeFevre (34:25)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (34:43)
⁓ and just letting it go and really finding the joy. mean, that's what the whole book is about is yes, you may suffer, but suffering will help lead you to the joy. It doesn't seem like that should be. Like you wanna wallow in the pain and the ick, but you've gotta go through that to get to the other side to see, okay, that's done. Now let me move forward and see where I can even make things better.
Julia LeFevre (34:44)
Yeah.
Yeah, I love it. And as I listen to you, I am struck by just the deeply personal things that you were sharing with a coworker. And I'm wondering, are there people that are gonna be out there saying, I'm not gonna do that at work or with a coworker? And...
As someone who's kind of been in the HR world where there are rules and regulations, but also getting to this point in your experience and experiencing this real positive situation, what would you tell someone who feels resistant to opening up any part of their personal life with someone at work?
Shelley Hernandez (35:42)
Mm-hmm.
Well, I mean, it's hard to do. mean, because of path, I'll call it trauma in different places where I've worked. The place I worked right before I worked here was, I mean, the scars run deep from how I was treated from the leader there. So I said then, I am not going to get to know these people. I'm not going to...
let them know anything about me. Sure, they can know I have a couple of kids and they can know I have some dogs and they can know I like the Packers and all that fine, whatever, superficial stuff. But getting into the root of who I am, I'm not going to let anybody see that. And I even had a meeting with my boss, I report to the CEO, and he and I were having one of our bi-weekly meetings and he was asking me, so how's it going? And I'm like, oh yeah, it's good. He's like, yeah, I don't like to share a lot about myself either. I'm like, well.
Julia LeFevre (36:35)
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (36:52)
That's true. But I mean, that was a long time ago. He and I have come along. He's awesome, I have to say. He's fantastic. I've never had a better boss ever. ⁓ But I mean, now we can talk about some stuff because I think we're comfortable now. ⁓ I think that has to come first. You have to be comfortable with the person. ⁓ You get to know them on a work level. then like I've done with the person I'm doing this with, she reports to me.
Julia LeFevre (37:01)
Well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (37:19)
So that even adds another little wrinkle in there. ⁓ You know, I'm her boss. So, but I think what we've decided from the very beginning, if we're gonna read this book, even though we're at work, we're not at work. You know, this is for your development. This is for my development. We're gonna do this together. ⁓ But once we close my office door, we're no longer at Baldwin. We're just reading this book as two people, two ladies, trying to make ourselves better.
Julia LeFevre (37:22)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And a lot of times there is resistance to that. And yet as you develop the person that comes to work every day, everyone wins because home is going to be better. Work is going to be better. And it really is a great opportunity for the workplace. I mean, it's where we spend a third of our life.
Shelley Hernandez (37:52)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Julia LeFevre (38:15)
or
of our days, it's where we are. We're sleeping, we're working, and then a little bit we're running all crazy living life. what a high purpose to be able to create a workplace that is serving one another by offering places where you can connect.
Shelley Hernandez (38:38)
Mm-hmm.
Right. that again, that ties right back to that servant leadership again.
Julia LeFevre (38:46)
Yeah, it's about, yeah, it's about the people.
Shelley Hernandez (38:51)
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (38:53)
Well, that leads right in to just my question about how do you balance the need for systems and structures with creating a people first culture?
Shelley Hernandez (39:07)
Well, I'll say when I came into this organization, ⁓ we've been in business for almost 50 years and things are used to being done a certain way. And I came in and saw a lot of things that needed to be better. ⁓ Documentation needed to be better. There's nothing worse in my thoughts than a terrible employee that can't be taught
Julia LeFevre (39:28)
you
Shelley Hernandez (39:37)
doesn't want to be taught, doesn't show up for work, doesn't follow the rules. There's been no progressive discipline put in place for this person. They inevitably get terminated. We have nothing to back us up for why they were terminated. They go to get unemployment and we can't win. Everybody at my company knows nothing will chat me more than paying out an unemployment claim that is not justified.
Julia LeFevre (39:46)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (40:07)
that was a very tough battle to get past was the documentation. And I had a conversation with one of our plant superintendents who said, well, we've never done that. We've never had to do that. We've never done, we just get rid of people and we don't think about them again. And so I actually had to sit down with him and I said, well, let me give you the why, why I'm asking you to do what you're doing. So I just laid it out. said, for every employee that we can't
Julia LeFevre (40:29)
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (40:37)
justify why we let them go. I have to submit a response to the unemployment claim. And if I don't have, I can't back us up. We're not going to win. And that's $5,100 easily minimum in an unemployment claim. And he said, wait, what? I said, yeah, $5,100 minimum for unemployment. He said, I had no idea they could get that much money. I said, yeah.
Julia LeFevre (41:01)
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (41:07)
That's why we asked you to give us documentation when you do stuff. And I've told that to a couple of different people in the company. we, it has been, I'll be here almost three years.
I got that implemented for very quickly. I have not lost a single unjustified unemployment claim, not one.
Julia LeFevre (41:30)
Wow.
Shelley Hernandez (41:32)
Because they just needed to know why. They needed to know why we asked them to do what we asked them to do. And once it's laid out and they understand it, they do it. We very rarely have any trouble with that anymore.
Julia LeFevre (41:34)
they needed to know.
Yeah, it all just circles back to communicating and working as a team, but to be able to collaborate like that, people have to be in the know. And what I find is that so many leaders just assume, ⁓ they'll trust us. But it's not human nature to trust things. When you're asking me to do more work, that's going to take time.
and I don't see a reason, I don't understand, then it just doesn't happen.
Shelley Hernandez (42:20)
Right. Right. And I mean, it really was, it was quite simple to solve the problem. It was just giving, letting them know and explaining it. Nobody had ever done that before.
Julia LeFevre (42:22)
Wow.
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and what I hear you saying too, is that you went toward them and had a conversation. We're probably curious, like, hey, I need you to do this. And you weren't, I'm assuming demanding and saying you have to do this because that just shuts people down. But being able to go in and with kindness and
Shelley Hernandez (42:51)
Right. Yep.
Julia LeFevre (42:58)
and really wanting the end result. It didn't matter. It wasn't an ego thing. It wasn't about you. It's about the company. And when leaders can go to those hard conversations with that in mind, like you said, it usually is an easy fix.
Shelley Hernandez (43:17)
Right. And then two, mean, we were obviously in the business to make money. You know, we are a revenue generating business. And I actually sat in one of our VP meetings, maybe about a year ago, and I kind of got on a little bit of a soapbox and I said, you know, HR, ⁓ all the divisions that are out there that are paving the roads and doing the grading work and putting in the parking lots, they're generating money for the company, you know, hand over fist or generating money, but HR.
and our safety department and our accounting department and our IT department, we will never generate one single penny for this company. Never. It's not what we do, but you better believe we can cost avoid.
Julia LeFevre (44:00)
Hmm.
Shelley Hernandez (44:04)
And that kind of shut the room up just a little bit. When I told them that, said, but that's, and again, that's why, you know, if you do the math on the number of, we'll go back to the unemployment claims that we haven't had to pay out. I almost look at that almost as revenue back to the company because we didn't have to spend it.
Julia LeFevre (44:05)
again.
You didn't have to spend it. You saved the company that much money. And I imagine compared to other years before you were there, there's a drastic difference.
Shelley Hernandez (44:25)
Mm-hmm.
Right, absolutely, yes. Because I can see that data of what we were paying out in the past.
Julia LeFevre (44:40)
Yeah, so how fun. I mean, I even just see the joy in ⁓ you being able to come in and help this company. And it's an amazing company. It's not like they were meaning to make these mistakes, but some of it was just they just didn't know. And so to be able to come in and make such a big difference is I am sure very rewarding.
Shelley Hernandez (44:43)
You
Mm-hmm.
Right. Exactly.
It 100 % is. mean, just, you know, this has been the most fulfilling job I've ever had. This has been the most impactful job I've ever had. ⁓ I really feel like I'm making a difference and my team is making a difference and our safety department is making a difference. ⁓ All of them. Accounting is finding stuff that we never did before. ⁓ It's just, it's definitely a complete culture shift than it was three years ago.
And I think any of the people that have been around a really long time, because we do have some people that have been there since the beginning, I think they would tell you the same thing, that under this current leadership that we have, and there's 15 of us or so, ⁓ we are really turning this company in a direction that it's only going to get better.
Julia LeFevre (45:49)
Yeah.
Feels really fulfilling.
Shelley Hernandez (45:59)
Yep, it definitely does.
Julia LeFevre (46:02)
So as you look forward now to the next three years, what are the biggest challenges you're facing?
Shelley Hernandez (46:11)
⁓ that's a good question. ⁓
I guess it's trying to figure out what more can I do? ⁓ you know, cause there's, don't like, again, I do not like to toot my own horn, but you know, there's, there's been a lot of things that I've been able to accomplish that have helped that have helped quite a bit. my partner in the safety department will probably tell you the same thing. ⁓ you know, just being able to improve the safety and keeping our employees safe is so, so critical. ⁓
Julia LeFevre (46:28)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (46:43)
That's a really good question. haven't really thought about what, mean, I don't know if I have an answer to what's next for me to do. ⁓ I think further developing the leaders that we currently have. I think when we were talking, prepping for this, I told you that we partner with a gentleman named Marty Nash that is working with several of our leaders and even some of our, just our managers and helping them become better leaders.
Julia LeFevre (46:50)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Yes.
Shelley Hernandez (47:12)
because we have people that can manage, but they really do not know how to lead. And that is a skill that you have to learn. I don't think you're born with that. ⁓ So we're working with him and he's getting more involved in the company and he's a fantastic, fantastic find. I worked with him at my previous company. And I'll just tell you real quick, I, the last company I was at said it was mandatory for us to work with him. And
Julia LeFevre (47:16)
Yeah.
Yes.
Shelley Hernandez (47:40)
I went into it thinking, what is this dude going to teach me about leadership that I don't already know? I've been doing this for so long. I had a cocky attitude. I really did. There is nothing that this guy is going to be able to teach me. I was wrong. I will openly admit I was wrong. ⁓ He brought some stuff out of me that I did not have. Knowledge was even in there to some extent.
Julia LeFevre (47:51)
You
you
Shelley Hernandez (48:10)
Stuff
that I think I had buried down deep that I didn't want to face, he made me face it. And he has really enlightened me into what it means not just the servant leadership, but leading with humility, leading with honesty, ⁓ just all of those things. He's a big proponent of John Maxwell, if you're familiar with him. So I watch my Maxwell minutes every morning.
Julia LeFevre (48:39)
⁓ shit!
Shelley Hernandez (48:40)
Because, know, again, you can never, it really, it kind of knocked me down a peg or two to know that, okay, yeah, you may have been doing this a long time, Shelly, but you don't know it all.
Julia LeFevre (48:50)
Yeah, what a fabulous note to end on because I think, you know, circling back to the greatest leaders or servant leaders and one of the hallmarks of a servant leader is being able to say, I was wrong.
Shelley Hernandez (49:09)
Yep. And I say it all the time because I'm not right all the time. You know, I'm not perfect. I'm never going to be perfect. I just had an incident this morning. Ironically, I ⁓ got a triggered by something that somebody who reports to me said, and I got a little extreme in my reaction and then turned around and went and hid in my office. And I sat there for maybe 30 seconds and went, wow.
Julia LeFevre (49:16)
Yeah.
Shelley Hernandez (49:39)
You're kind of a jerk. And I had to own that. So I did. took a few minutes and I went to her office and I apologized and said that was uncalled for. I got a little bit triggered. I shouldn't have and I'm sorry.
Julia LeFevre (49:43)
Yeah.
Thank you for sharing that. just think, you know, leaders, sometimes we look at leaders and think that they have to be perfect. And sometimes leaders feel like they have to, and they just don't. And we all get triggered. We all lose it and snap at someone. And there's a couple of things that, you know, those just are pointing to us to say, hey, there's something there.
that you could probably explore and heal. And in the aftermath, what are you going to do about it in the short term? So there's a short term, go apologize. And then there's the more longer term. Okay, I'm going to kind of look at this and see what's going on. So thank you for normalizing that.
Shelley Hernandez (50:28)
Mm-hmm.
Julia LeFevre (50:51)
Well, Shelly, our time is up, but I just want to say thank you so much for being on here, for being vulnerable, for sharing with us all of your insights and expertise about leadership and HR.
Shelley Hernandez (50:54)
You
Well, I really,
really appreciate it and I appreciate the opportunity beyond. And I look forward to trying to continue to grow myself. And, hopefully if others see this, they'll be a little bit motivated to know that you don't know it all. And you can always, there's always room to grow. I think it's the biggest thing.
Julia LeFevre (51:20)
Yeah!
Absolutely. Shelly Hernandez, everyone. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on Wired to Lead.
Shelley Hernandez (51:30)
Thank you. Okay.
Thanks so much.