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Welcome to The Overflow—the bonus round of faith and real-life conversation with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Every week, they unpack the powerful insights, behind-the-scenes experiences, and personal reflections that didn’t quite fit into Sunday’s sermon.
This is where the conversation gets practical, honest, and a little bit unscripted. Whether it's an encouraging word, a deeper dive into Scripture, or a hilarious moment from their week, Brandon and Susan bring fresh perspective and spiritual fuel to keep you going.
It’s real talk, fresh takes, and full hearts.
These are the conversations too good to cut and too real to miss.
Hey, friends, and welcome to the overflow with Brandon and Susan Thomas. Today is Susan, and I'm here with my new friend, my new friend, Holly Wagner. I'm just so thankful for you. The ministry God's given to you, she has written many books. We're gonna talk about one today.
Speaker 1:She's she and her husband pastored and started. You founded Oasis Church in LA in 1984, and you've just been all over the world. God has had an assignment on your life, and you're just still doing it.
Speaker 2:I am.
Speaker 1:And so we're just glad you're here. So grateful. And I thought we would kick off the conversation just letting the person who maybe doesn't know you give a little bit of background on just who you are and kinda what you're about.
Speaker 2:Oh, well, thanks and thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And, yes, I'm not Brandon. Brandon, I guess, normally sits in this seat. This is not
Speaker 1:Brandon. Thanks for letting
Speaker 2:me take you spot. Yes. Yep. So I was actually born in Texas. So there you go.
Speaker 2:We'll claim you. Yes. Texan. And then my dad's job had us living out of the country. So we moved to Venezuela.
Speaker 2:Elementary school for me was Venezuela. And So impressive, by the way.
Speaker 1:That's amazing.
Speaker 2:And then Indonesia was middle school or junior high. And then most of my high school was in England, in London. So I kinda got the privilege of, you know, just seeing the world and
Speaker 1:Yeah. Which that alone is so rare.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's just not most people's story at
Speaker 2:all. Right.
Speaker 1:What's happened? Form you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It makes me so it just makes me so great so grateful. I think the older I get, the more grateful I am about that. Mhmm. The school in Indonesia, for example, had 44 nationalities.
Speaker 2:So had a big worldview from an early age, just different cultures and the ability to get along with people. You know, you just meet people from all over. So I really appreciate that. And then living in London, that was the perfect age to live in London. In high school, I could appreciate the culture and the geography and the architecture and, you know, an amazing time to live in London.
Speaker 2:So I'm really grateful that I had the chance to travel so much. And then even now I think, you know, I travel out of the country two or three times a year. So I travel a lot out of the countries to this day. Wow. And now it's teaching and preaching in churches and I love that, but there's just something so encouraging.
Speaker 2:You know, someone who's been leading in a church for so long, it's just encouraging seeing what God is doing around the world. Now I was in a church in Bogota in Colombia, and there was just lines of people around the church waiting to get in and they would let him in and then they would wait in line for another hour to or an hour and a till the next service started. The hunger, right, just the hunger and and that, you know, just what God is doing all over the world. So sometimes I think in America, we we forget we're a pretty small part of the big church. Right.
Speaker 2:So what God's doing around the world is really spectacular.
Speaker 1:Well, and that part, we've talked about this before you and I, like that part alone, think is very powerful. Maybe we just sit on that for just a second. That sometimes in America, we really do get very focused, self focused. We just think this this is life. This is the best life.
Speaker 1:And we don't realize there's a whole another Yeah. Thing happening across the globe, particularly in God's church. Right. And if not careful in our churches in America, maybe you listening right now, it's so accessible. It's so easy to go to church that we're not under the threat of a persecution as far as someone coming into our doors and Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, just shutting us all down or harming all of us. I mean, that's just not a regular threat. And it can lead to such a comfortability, almost as I would say, an anesthesia to the soul. Whereas you talk about this church in where was it again?
Speaker 2:Was that mine? Well, in Dubai or China. I mean, there's churches all over that are having to be underground. Yeah. Right?
Speaker 2:And in in Tehran, we just were chatting with somebody today. Right? And so I just feel like what God is doing around the world is spectacular, and and it just stirs me up. I and I'm again, I'm grateful because I've had the privilege just to see it happen. And so, yeah, I just wanna, you know, encourage all of us here in America to, you know, to not get lazy with your faith, to not get lazy with serving, to not get to just to take it for granted.
Speaker 2:Yes. What you know, the message that we've been entrusted with.
Speaker 1:So That's so incredible. When you talk about lines around the building just to get in the church doors Right. That right there, I'm like, god give us that fire all across America.
Speaker 2:I know. Come on. Yes.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Yep. Starting with us. Right? Yep.
Speaker 1:Yes. Starting with us. Yep. So your story led you from there. And then at what age did you come back to the
Speaker 2:then after England, then my dad was very concerned that my sister and I were gonna marry Europeans and live in That's fair. Live in Europe and he would never see his grandkids. So for my senior year in high school, my senior year in high school, he moved us from London, England to Corpus Christi, Texas.
Speaker 1:That is a
Speaker 2:very big change. That was a really big change. But for me, again, that's the nature of my personality. I'd never seen American football. So I'd never seen a lot of the American way of doing things.
Speaker 2:So so I enjoyed that year. And then I ended up going to out of state, went to Duke for the first part of my college life. And so so I but I enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:It was It wasn't a hard transition?
Speaker 2:It was hard. It was probably the biggest culture shock, honestly, a way. But but, you know, I my personality is just kind of let's try something new and different and
Speaker 1:So that worked. Yeah. Oh, wow. So you came here and then how did
Speaker 2:you meet Philip? So I worked at Duke. I was studying or gonna head to medical school, but that sort of changed when I started taking all these acting classes and like the acting classes better. So eventually I worked my way from Duke and I stopped for a second at a school in Dallas and then got a job acting. And that's what took me to LA.
Speaker 2:So I moved to Los Angeles as an actress and I didn't really know that making a living was a hard thing to do. So I got to make a living. So again, I was very I'm very grateful. To be honest, I don't think I would have there are people who are so committed to it. They park cars while they're gonna be I just don't know that I would have.
Speaker 2:So just to be honest. I don't know what that says about me, but there you go. Yeah. So I just was made a living acting for a while and met Philip in the middle of that. And so he was already in ministry and already, you know, planning on building the church and all of that.
Speaker 2:So I kind of met him, fell in love. And even those first few years of our marriage and the first few years of the church starting, I was still working as an actress, which is paying for our life. Yeah. Because we have a church of 12 people in those early days.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You're planners. I guess so. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, that is so real. Well, you you guys have made it your mission to love God's church, to lead her well. And I wanna talk about because today's topic, and it may go all over. We'll just Who knows? Who knows?
Speaker 1:Who knows where we're headed? But I think one of the big things that really drew me for today's conversation is talking about how to walk through really hard times. Yep. And that's a reality for if you're on this globe, you're gonna go through a hard time. And you guys, you know, you've been serving the Lord, building God's kingdom on earth, married, two kids, but you've gone through some hard times.
Speaker 1:And you wrote a recent book, I think that kinda talks about that. Will you tell us a little bit about your recent book? And then I'd love to hear what K. Where the passion for that book came from.
Speaker 2:So they're my most recent one is one called find your brave. And the biblical through line of that story is the apostle Paul, he's headed to Rome. Like he's headed to Rome to appeal to Caesar because of what he'd been through. So, but on that journey, they encounter a shipwreck. And, you know, the ship is destroyed.
Speaker 2:The people survive and they end up in a place they didn't wanna end up. Yeah. Right? And so I kind of talk a little bit about that journey and some decisions that Paul made. And so for us, there was a season of ministry.
Speaker 2:Again, we pastored for thirty five years and in Los Angeles, which is a very secular city. And I'm really grateful again that I pastored there. I know some people look at me and they go, how could you pastor in LA? But honestly, it was I loved it because the cultural diversity was very familiar to me. And I loved the whole just the from different industries that are in LA, they would find their way into our church.
Speaker 2:So our church would have academy award winners and people who are just coming off the streets. So you had a real spectrum of people in the church. So I am grateful for that, but I'm I'm really grateful that people didn't know how to pretend they're Christians. Like, feel like sometimes in the South Of The United States, people know how to act Christian. Right.
Speaker 2:Right? They know how to go through the motions, but inside they're far from God. And I feel like in LA, you were saved or you're not. So there was no pretending about it. So I kinda like that.
Speaker 1:And so refreshing about that a little bit. I'd rather just where are you? Where are
Speaker 2:you at? I was raised not with, you know, the whole Christianese sort of lane. I didn't I didn't ever communicate with that because I didn't I had to reach people who were far from gone. Yeah. Right?
Speaker 2:So so I'm grateful for that. But in those years, you know, we it was a lot of decades leading a church in LA and there are certain challenges. And I I remember this one particular season, which was the impetus I think for the book or why Paul became kind of my companion. So I think that's why I, wrote it at this season. But there was a season that started for me.
Speaker 2:This would have been a few years ago before we handed the church over. But it started with the death of my dad. And he fell and hit his head. Was a pretty quick on one hand, a pretty quick thing. But a shock.
Speaker 2:But a shock. And he hadn't been doing super great before, but then that was very sudden. And I was very loved by my father. And I and I know what a gift that is. And I am also I know plenty of women who and men who they did not have healthy love of their dad.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And so I'm I'm grateful again. I'm aware of what a privilege that was. And I was very loved by my dad. He was my biggest cheerleader, encourager.
Speaker 2:Every dream I had, he, you know, cheered for it or funded it, you know. So I'm very grateful for my dad. And so I'm trying to grieve the loss of my dad and then Philip's identity gets stolen. And they kind of hacked through his email accounts and then get to our bank account and they basically stole our savings account. And the FBI got involved, but because of how it was done, the bank wasn't liable.
Speaker 2:So I'm trying to process, right, trying to find time to grieve my dad. Yeah. And then a month, six weeks later, whatever, Phillips identity gets stolen. And so then now I have to process this financial loss, which was a big loss. You couldn't get back?
Speaker 2:No. We couldn't get it back.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:And then Philip gets diagnosed with cancer and the treatment was so brutal for him that it destroyed his immune system. And so then he started catching everything you could catch. And one thing he got was like shingles and they said it was like one of the worst cases and he couldn't really function for five or six months. And then my daughter who was she'd had her own couple of rough years and which she talks about now and teaches, I can share it. But she her best friend had died of leukemia.
Speaker 2:And then she just kind of spun out a little bit after that and made some decisions that were really painful and ended up marrying somebody who we knew was not gonna be good and it ended up abusive and bad. And so she's in that process. So here I am trying to grieve the loss of my dad. We have this financial loss. Philip gets cancer.
Speaker 2:My daughter decides to marry this guy that we know is not gonna be a good thing. And I'm trying to lead a church of thousands of people now at this point, right? I'm trying to lead a church and trying to love my husband and be there for the empire to be the mom for my daughter. You know, I'm just trying to figure out the financial things. And I'm pretty sure I'm failing.
Speaker 2:Like I was not getting an A in all of those hats I was trying to wear. So it was just brutal and hard. And then there are some people who should have had my back. You know, people to whom I had showed a lot of grace to. Yeah.
Speaker 2:When they'd come in the church, they had been a hot mess. Right. And I showed them all this grace and I just needed some grace and I wasn't getting it. And I just and then I had a really a real dear friend who just betrayed me and it was a real stab in the back. So
Speaker 1:All this in what period of time?
Speaker 2:Oh, within, I don't know, a year. So it's like boom boom boom boom boom boom. Unbelievable. Unrelenting. It was unrelenting.
Speaker 2:And it was just and I'm very much a people person. You know, if you're an enneagram, I'm a seven eight. So in my grade seven, I'm all about the people. I wanna touch people, hug people. If you come close to me, I'm touching you.
Speaker 2:It's just how I am. Yeah. But in that season, I didn't wanna be in near anybody. I just I found myself just kind of wanting to isolate and sit on my sofa and, you know, click to the next thing
Speaker 1:and Mentally unplugged, relationally unplugged.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. It was it was a pretty horrible place. And I feel like in that moment that God showed me a picture of who she would become.
Speaker 1:If she kept going that way.
Speaker 2:And it was just this picture of this really angry, bitter old woman, and I didn't want to be her. Wow. So, I mean, I didn't have just a root of bitterness. I had a whole tree happening inside. I was cynical.
Speaker 2:I was just cynical about church, about people. I was just was not in not in a good place. And so I had start doing the work. And one of the things that we did is that my husband in this season, who's who's doing great, by the way. I always forget to say.
Speaker 2:He's He's healed. Yes. Ten years later, he's great.
Speaker 1:Thank you, God. Yes.
Speaker 2:Always forget to say that part. Yeah. But in this season, so he brought this jar into our kitchen. I think I've had the jar somewhere else, but I don't know. He but I wasn't using it.
Speaker 2:He brought it in the kitchen. He goes, every day, we're gonna write something we're grateful for and we're gonna put it in that jar.
Speaker 1:See, he's the Well, he's battling.
Speaker 2:Yes. Yeah. He's the Christian in the marriage. So there should be one in every marriage. So he's it in ours.
Speaker 2:And so I'm thinking, you're I'm not doing that. I'm not doing that. And then he brings the colorful post it notes like to all the as if to make it fun. To make it more fun for I'm like, but I know he's gonna count, right? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because so Oh, yeah. I remember staring at that stupid jar and I'm like, I got nothing. I got nothing. I just stand there for a long time and then finally I go, coffee. Right?
Speaker 2:Aren't you
Speaker 1:gonna I start mean, yes. Give me caffeine. So I
Speaker 2:think it was probably about four days of coffee. And then one day I looked up and like, oh, sunshine as if that's unusual in Southern California, right? And then eventually became my home and a good book and then it became other things. But that kind of broke something. So it started the process of breaking the pulling out kind of the bitterness and just changing.
Speaker 2:It just kinda changed for me. Which I
Speaker 1:wanna just talk about that for a second because that's very profound and I'm very visual. And so I'm imagining the jar with the little colored, you know, with the sticky notes or pieces of paper, you're writing this down. Yep. But there's something and I I mean, I think every person listening relates, I know I do, that when pain is happening and the hurt is happening and even as you share your story and I'm imagining the diagnosis of your husband, you know, the death of your father, the are you kidding? The stealing of your savings, all these things.
Speaker 1:But then the friends didn't stand with you. That was horrible. Weirdly, those are its own kind of pain, the betrayal pieces. It's it's very unique. And so, you know, the the bitterness trap is so real.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because when we're hurt and it's not healed correctly, it's gonna turn to resentment and then that bitter root poisons many. So all that to say, I think what is striking to me is that that jar of gratitude shifted things. Yep. That when you started putting in the thank you God for
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Coffee 10 times.
Speaker 2:That way you progress.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But it tell about that because it shifted something.
Speaker 2:It shifted the focus. And, there's a Psalm 77, the author wrote, I complained and my spirit was overwhelmed. And so I felt like for me, there may be the reason I was feeling so overwhelmed is because I was spending more of my time complaining. And complaining doesn't change anything. It just amplifies frustration and discord.
Speaker 2:It doesn't Yeah. Change a thing. But that tends to be our default.
Speaker 1:We think it's comfort. We'd like a false sense of comfort. Yes. And we medicate with the complaint.
Speaker 2:It definitely makes us sicker. And so there's way too much evidence, even scientific evidence now about gratitude, which I didn't know at the time. Yeah. I was just doing it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But now there's way too much evidence now about how gratitude can change everything, changes the synapses in your brain, it changes everything, the focus. And so that began the process of freedom. Wow. So finding freedom. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And honestly, it's a habit we have to this day. Wow. So we still have we have a different jar. It's a bigger one now that we just make a habit to and I'll put something in every day, but a lot of days I do. So I just think it's, you know, whatever would work for somebody, it's a good thing to make it a habit.
Speaker 2:Make gratitude a and here's also the thing. I think we make this mistake when it comes to gratitude as we say thank you when we're given something or thank you when someone does something for us or when we get and we should. Yeah. But gratitude is not a result of circumstances. Gratitude is a decision of the heart.
Speaker 2:Right? And so I think it's a decision. And so every day I looked at that ridiculous jar and I made the decision. I never felt it in the moment. I made the decision.
Speaker 1:When did your feelings
Speaker 2:match up? I would say maybe a month into it. Do you know?
Speaker 1:It was a decision. Which I believe that right there can help so many people, myself included, is the reality that when we take that first step of obedience Yeah. You know, because praising God in every circumstance is actually we're instructed to
Speaker 2:do that. In all circumstances. All circumstances. It doesn't say for them. Right?
Speaker 2:It doesn't say for the circumstance, but it says in the middle
Speaker 1:in the middle of them. And you were in the middle. In the middle. You were. And when we take those first steps of obedience, something unlocks in us.
Speaker 1:And so I think one of the things that can trip us up, I know it has me in my past, is that if I'm just relying on how I feel, if that's my compass, is what I feel is where I'm going to go, I'm gonna land in a ditch. It's true. That gratitude choice begins to shift, even the brain, as you were saying, the studies on the brain, which side note, isn't it interesting that our creator God He had a plan. He had a Who thought? You know, even for the brain.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And when we shifted and so so you so you began to shift about a month in the gratitude shift, but but that's still a whole lot to overcome. What happened from there?
Speaker 2:It was a journey. Yeah. So, Philip got better. It took a long it took a while for him to get better health wise. It just I think the weight of a church is it's real.
Speaker 2:Yes. And then all of this was real. So it took him a while to get better. And then, you know, we navigated this with my daughter who she, you know, that was years ago. She's now married to a really great guy.
Speaker 2:I've got grandkids. It's awesome. But so we kind of, you know, that situation slowly kind of worked itself out. But I had to make the decision even if nothing changed. Right?
Speaker 2:That I just had to find something to be grateful for. So, it was I'm very happy now to be on the other side of it.
Speaker 1:Well, 100%. And so the book came out of this? The book came out
Speaker 2:of that. Yeah. That sort of season about and then one of the things I wrote in the book was how when, you know, Paul and the crew on that ship, they found themselves on Malta, which they it's not where they wanted to be. But they there was people there who needed miracles. So sometimes the detours we think.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know? Or God's God has a way of working that out. Yeah. So I just think for me, so even on that journey, you know, obviously, God doesn't give sickness.
Speaker 2:He doesn't have sickness to give. So it's not that. But in the middle of that circumstance, he can take all of the situations and weave it to where he wants it to be. Right? So I've gotten to meet people and have conversations and all the things I would never have done Yeah.
Speaker 2:If I hadn't navigated that.
Speaker 1:Like it or not, it's just true. When we walk through something like that, there's an authority that we now have that we didn't have before. And no one's like, yay. I want that authority. So I hope I go through a hard thing.
Speaker 1:Nobody wants that. Said no one ever.
Speaker 2:Yes. And exactly. There's a verse in Judges, this random little verse in Judges where it feels random to me. Judges three that that is kind of right after that or right when the children of Israel get ready to step into the land of promise. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And it says the it says that God left enemies in the land. Like, he could have taken them all out. He left enemies in the land because there was a generation coming in that didn't know how to fight. And so I feel like today Yeah. We have a generation that doesn't know how to stand, that doesn't know how to fight.
Speaker 2:Right? We go through seasons of hard and we give up. We have to, you know, numb ourselves so we however we choose to do that so that we don't have to deal with it. Yeah. And but what we need is a generation that knows how to stand.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Knows how to love anyway, forgive anyway, push through anyway.
Speaker 1:Yes. Well, and it's real. And I mean, that can go so many directions. That's the participation trophies that our kids get when
Speaker 2:Stop already with the participation trophy.
Speaker 1:Which mine got those, but I'm just telling you
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:But, you know, come We just are so afraid of winners and not winning, you know, that we just hand out these things. And then just our self medication with a million things as you said. I mean, social media truly, the scrolling on our phone alone, looking, you know, just empty scrolling and finding ourselves just absolutely.
Speaker 2:No. The damage that does to your brain. Right. Yeah. You know that.
Speaker 2:It's just
Speaker 1:like Yes. Yes. It's deep. It's deep. But what it does is it leaves us, like you said, not knowing how to fight and face the hard things in life when the reality is this world is tough.
Speaker 1:Jesus was so clear. This is maybe something I I believe in. I believe it helps people is normalizing. You know, Jesus was so good to normalize things that sometimes when hard times hit you, you're like, woah. Right.
Speaker 1:This is so weird.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it is to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But Jesus said in this world In this world. You will have trouble. That's right. But take heart.
Speaker 1:I have overcome Yep. The world. And so maybe somebody even listening right now, you're in a hard place and you're thinking, it's just me. And doesn't it doesn't demean the pain of your issue. No.
Speaker 1:But you're not alone.
Speaker 2:Not alone. And it's not the end
Speaker 1:of the story. Oh, tell us about that.
Speaker 2:Right. It's not the end of the story. And so I think sometimes we we get so overwhelmed by the circumstance that we're in or that maybe our child is in, you know, or a loved one is in and we get we get so overwhelmed with all the emotion, but it's not the end of the story. Right. Right?
Speaker 2:And so don't give up. No. Ephesians six is a, you know, a beautiful part of scripture that describes the armor. And we're actually never told to take it off by the way. Right?
Speaker 2:It says put it on and we have to put it on. And one of the pieces of the armor is the shoes and which hello, we all love shoes. Yes. But it's interesting about the shoes, you know, the shoes that would the gospel piece is what he's talking about. But the shoes that he's referring to, and Paul was probably sitting there looking at a Roman soldier when he's writing this in front of him.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But the shoes oftentimes that a Roman soldier would wear into battle, they're they're kind of like these sandal y shoes, but they had spikes at the bottom, like golf shoes on steroids. So because they would put their feet in the ground and they wouldn't move. So they would stand. So they could fight without falling over.
Speaker 2:So their feet would be so Stability. Stability. And so I just think that's what we need. That's why you have to put your armor on. Right?
Speaker 2:Creates the ability to stand when all hell is coming at you, when you feel like that. So the ability to stand. And so maybe it's worth taking a look at the armor again. Yes. You know?
Speaker 2:Another interesting thing about the armor, I did this whole thing on the armor is that the belt of truth, the belt was a really important part. It wasn't just like, oh, you have a nice belt. It held everything in place. So and it was and it was tied to their body so that it when they needed their sword, they knew exactly where it was. Like, it held everything in place.
Speaker 2:And so truth Good. Is what holds everything in place for us. So that's why we can't be distracted by what isn't true.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 2:There's none of this your truth, my truth. It's the truth.
Speaker 1:It's his truth. That's right.
Speaker 2:Right? Oh. You have an experience and I have an experience. Yes. But truth is truth.
Speaker 1:Well, and that to me is a very key piece of walking through a hard place because you better be careful the voices you're listening to.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know? And I I'm a big believer. There's multiple voices and you need to learn to identify them. There's the voice of the enemy. The I mean, he's a liar.
Speaker 1:He was from the beginning. It's his native tongue. And then there's your own heart. People don't realize often the voice in their head. It may be the enemy whispering, but it could be your own heart.
Speaker 1:Jeremiah seventeen nine, the heart is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked. Who can know it? Or desperately sick, who can know it? And so being able to discern what voice am I hearing because we need to hear the voice of God. Yep.
Speaker 1:That is our our direction. He is our guide.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And when you're in the hard place, what do you think keeps us from hearing his voice clearly when we're in that hard place? And somebody that's in that hard place right now, they're like, I don't know what I'm hearing.
Speaker 2:I think too much noise. Right? So or fear. You know, you know this. Most of you know this, listening.
Speaker 2:We're we're a three part being. Right? We spirit, soul, and body. And our spirit always like and and I have this picture in my head, like, and with everything that happens, we get three votes. Our spirit almost always always, not almost, always votes the way of God.
Speaker 2:Always. Always. Always. Always. Our flesh almost always does not.
Speaker 2:Right? It votes with what feels good in the moment. Yeah. What feels good in the moment. And our soul is the swing vote.
Speaker 2:And so if our soul is healthy, then it votes the way of God. And if it's unhealthy, then it votes the way of the flesh. And so that's why we have to do the hard work of creating a healthy soul. We have to do the hard work of being honest. So for me in that hard season, I had to take a look at the ugliness that was in there.
Speaker 2:What was it in there? So I think that's part of the work. It's just is doing the work of creating a healthy soul. So, yeah, and it's you know, there is work to be involved with that
Speaker 1:as well. And people would think, oh, but you're a pastor. Oh, but you're leading people. Surely, your soul is healthy. You don't struggle.
Speaker 1:And to me, I believe that is such a misunderstanding of the human condition. I'd be a people first. Thank you. There's a baseline human condition. Right?
Speaker 1:And people don't realize that, and and that's a whole kind of separate topic. But be careful about that next. Yeah. Exactly. Part two.
Speaker 1:But elevating people to a place that's not real. You know, those friends of yours that sounds like just walked away or weren't there or didn't know how to show up or maybe all that betrayed you, that's that misunderstanding that at the bottom shelf, we're all people Yep. In desperate need of a savior. I don't care what position or role you have That's right. In life.
Speaker 1:But it's just so important to understand that not only to love others well, because some people needed to love you well in that season. And I'm sure there were some who did, but then the ones who didn't, man, it hurts. But also, so we don't have an incorrect view of ourselves. Right. That we, at the end of the day, as you just described, there's all kinds of noise happening on the inside.
Speaker 1:Is my soul healthy or is it not? And for someone listening, the first question you would ask is, do I even have the spirit of God? Have I have I met Christ as my Lord and savior? Do I have his spirit or or am I dead on the inside needing resurrection life? Right?
Speaker 1:But but getting in tune with that is can be difficult when you're in
Speaker 2:the heat of the pain. Yes. Well, because our instinct, right, when we're in the heat of pain is to look to who to blame.
Speaker 1:Oh, talk about that.
Speaker 2:Right? Who's is it? Who can I blame? Yeah. I mean, you know, in every marriage problem we've ever had, I'm pretty sure it was all Philip's fault.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:So I feel like that started in Genesis three. If I remember
Speaker 2:pretty sure it's all Yeah. We know that's not true. But, yeah, I think that's that's the thing. When you're in pain, you wanna look for somebody to blame. And so what that does then is keep us from being any sort of teeny bit introspective.
Speaker 2:Right? So what can I learn here? What does this say about me? So that's what I had to learn about my own soul. It's like, what is this saying about me?
Speaker 2:Who am I trying to please that I shouldn't be trying to please? Yeah. Who where where do I feel like everybody has to meet you know, cater to me and that's not really right. Oof. Right?
Speaker 2:So I had to answer some of those questions and, you know, just find the ugly in there.
Speaker 1:Which when you're in the heat of pain, when you're in especially with the things that you're describing, I mean, I'm telling you, me listening, hearing all this, some of it for the very first time that you're going through in the span of a year. I mean, just any one of those by itself is traumatic for someone. And so you're in the middle of all those things. I mean, your child that you love, your daughter's struggling. I mean, no one knows the pain of of a mom's heart when their daughter or their son is Yeah.
Speaker 1:In a hard, dark place.
Speaker 2:Ain't no pain like kid pain.
Speaker 1:No. And so all of those different elements, but it's very, very easy to just look at the circumstances and point to who is to blame. Is it God? Is it that person? Is it, you know, point?
Speaker 1:And there's something in us that absolutely resists the idea, oh, you're asking me to look at my heart? Yeah. In the middle of all this.
Speaker 2:In the middle. And and we have a real enemy. Yeah. So there it's it's all of it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right? But I just think sometimes we we get we we blame the devil for things that we probably need to look at our own self. And so that's what was interesting, which I forgot to say this in the middle of that or kind of toward the tail end of this year that was horrible. Yeah. We hosted a conference or hosted a conference called God Chicks, and then it became She Rises, which is a women's conference in LA.
Speaker 1:Reached thousands of women. I know I know that's very powerful.
Speaker 2:Yes. You know, grown over the years. And so this year, this particular year, so when all that stuff is happening, we're for the first time ever hosting that conference at the Dolby Theatre where the Academy Awards are held. So that would have been the first time ever worship was sung on that stage, that the word of God was taught on that stage. It's So a people would have seen photo I mean, some people might see the photos of me on that stage with the thousands of women in the audience.
Speaker 2:See, it's a beautiful venue. Yeah. But the cost to get there.
Speaker 1:Oh my.
Speaker 2:Right? So nobody had or some people did, but there was it was a really painful journey. All that stuff that I mentioned to you, that was all happening while I'm trying to get Unreal. Place value on the woman. Right?
Speaker 2:In a city that has been so devaluing to the woman. Wow. Right? So there would be a battle to get there.
Speaker 1:To think the enemy would just sit back and let that happen.
Speaker 2:Naive would that be?
Speaker 1:Right. Right? And I think that's another real thing that, you know, again, someone listening, you may be very familiar with the enemy and enemy strategies. For someone else, it's like, I don't really know what they're even talking about. Right.
Speaker 1:Could you kind of talk a little more about just how the enemy comes at us and the the reality of the enemy in our life? What would you say?
Speaker 2:Well, as you mentioned, he's a liar. Yeah. Right? He's a liar. And so he will start to lie to you about who you are, who other people are, what your purpose is.
Speaker 2:You so then you start to doubt. Yeah. And fear takes over. And then when fear takes over, then the anger happens. And so then you behave in a way.
Speaker 2:So it's like this little trickle effect and all started with a lie because that's really all he's got.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Ugh.
Speaker 2:You know, it's a bunch of lies. And so that just, I had I feel like I had to push through the lies of all of it about, you know, hearing things like, oh, see your daughter's never gonna get over this or your husband's never gonna get through this. You're never gonna get that money back. So whatever it is, we had all, like, all the lies that were happening around all of those events that happened. And I had to just stand.
Speaker 2:I had to put those spiky shoes on
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And stand and declare that God loves his daughters. God loves me. God loves his daughters. It's his plan for this event to be in the middle of Hollywood. And come hell or high water, we're gonna be there.
Speaker 2:Right. And we're gonna see what God does in there. Amazing. It's that that chutzpah. You know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I have a feeling God did amazing things at that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It was it was magnificent. And but I was a very there was no way I could have taken credit for any of that. Do you know when it was like a very humbling thing to to stand there and see what God did and the cost that was paid to get there. It actually you know what?
Speaker 2:Now it's like looking back, I think sometimes we take for granted even like, that's that's a small piece of a puzzle. Right? But we take for granted the cost that was paid for us to have the word of God. Oh. Or the cost that we have to to be able to teach God's word or do you know there's people
Speaker 1:Have paid prices.
Speaker 2:For a millennial have paid the price for us. Right. And so I don't ever wanna take that for granted. And the price that was paid Yes.
Speaker 1:By our savior.
Speaker 2:Right. So that we could walk forgiven and free. And have eternity with God. So that's why I feel like the price I had to pay was like, on a scale of, you know, one to a 100 is like a one compared to what he did. Do know what I mean?
Speaker 2:I do.
Speaker 1:So It's real. It doesn't doesn't demean or diminish the realness of that moment, but it helps with the perspective that we're not alone and our savior paid the ultimate price that none of us can ever fully
Speaker 2:Nope.
Speaker 1:Grasp or understand. But it's real. And, you know, the thing that's interesting sometimes about pain is it can be in our culture a bit of a pain competition. You know? Well, what where we were kinda almost one upping or or, oh, well,
Speaker 2:I had this happened to me or
Speaker 1:Yes. Or, oh, mine's not nearly as as Holly's big bad year. So why am I having such a hard time? And just understanding that there's a human condition. Oh, god.
Speaker 1:Jesus was so good again to say, in this world, you will have troubles. And he lets us know, but take heart. He's overcome the world. And I thought about that, the armor that you talked about. And in those moments when the enemy comes to whisper the lies, that shield of faith.
Speaker 2:It's
Speaker 1:like it just it protects us from the fiery darts Yep. Of the enemy and lifting up that faith and that belief. And I think just wherever someone is right now listening that if you're in a hard place, this is where faith is more than just a philosophy
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Or just a good idea or just a Christianese thing we say.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Either I believe God or I don't. And if I don't, I wanna be like that guy in the bible who's like one of my favorites. Jesus, I believe. But help me with my unbelief.
Speaker 2:Right on. Yes.
Speaker 1:Honest prayer. God's looking for an honest heart in the middle of the hard place. Yeah. I would
Speaker 2:rather have that conversation. I mean, there's too many people that feel like maybe it's it's more in the bible belt or whatever. They feel like they have to put on that fake face. Yeah. And but I don't think that does God any favors or you.
Speaker 1:So No. Just be honest. Be honest. Be authentic with God. Be authentic with people in your circle.
Speaker 1:Yep. And and let and walk through it with realness. Yep. One other thing that I wanted to to just kind of hit on is going back to the enemy and just the whole journey. You know, sometimes when people get sick or when bad things happen, which we're always trying to figure out why did this happen?
Speaker 1:And like you said, we often wanna just blame, blame, blame, blame. But I've heard it said, my husband and I've talked about this before, on our best day as a married couple I mean, we are loving each other perfectly if that's even a thing. Even on our best day, there's still an enemy actively seeking to kill, steal, and destroy what God loves, which would be my marriage and would be your marriage and any one married in this example. So even in your best day, just recognizing that there is a very real enemy actively going at you and understanding the different areas of threat. And so I think our heart being deceitful above all things, that's another thing.
Speaker 1:And then just broken world, we call it broken world circumstances. Yep. Things outside of our control that we're in a broken world. And until God comes and makes all things new, it's a reality. It's a reality.
Speaker 1:But one thing I wanted to talk about is sometimes there's the temptation. There's two extremes. I think people sometimes we like to live in extremes. One would be, well, it's someone else's fault. I'm gonna blame.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Another would be, well, you did something wrong or I must have done something wrong. And there's a healthy space of evaluation because sometimes we did do something wrong and it's bringing pain on ourselves.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sometimes we did open a door.
Speaker 1:Yes. Sometimes we did open a door. So when you were at your your lowest point, how did you begin obviously, gratitude, God began to help you crawl out. Yeah. But how did you begin to evaluate in a healthy way?
Speaker 1:Like, what is going on here? And what is my role? What is not my role? And it's a job type thing. How did you evaluate that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think with each one was a little bit different. So like with the finances, was, do you trust the seeds that you've sown? You know? So I had to go, right?
Speaker 2:And then with my daughter, oh, I was on my knees crying and praying and all that. And I heard the spirit of God say, will you trust me with her? I guess so.
Speaker 1:So hard. So hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And again, now, you know, we're whatever it is, ten years out,
Speaker 1:we're all good. Living in the healing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Living in the healing now. Exactly. So I just think with each one, was a it was more me making the decision to trust God with the whole story. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And reminding myself that it was just a chapter and Yeah.
Speaker 1:And not the end.
Speaker 2:And could I be faithful here? You know, could I stay faithful here? Wow. And I and then I had to yes. Of course.
Speaker 2:Where else am I gonna To who else do I find freedom or healing? There is no place
Speaker 1:else. Exactly.
Speaker 2:So Yeah. I'm not gonna run from God.
Speaker 1:Right. As believers and, I mean, it's to to our core. There's nowhere else to go. No. We we have nothing if not Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I don't
Speaker 2:know how people get through situations like that without Jesus. I don't I don't know Yeah. How you do that.
Speaker 1:I think it doesn't if we look around, it doesn't end well. No. And so we spur one one another on and we encourage each other. Yep. Well, I would just ask you, you know, as we kind of wrap up this conversation, to the person who's in a hard place, how would you specifically encourage them?
Speaker 1:Any practical, just wisdom that you would offer where if they're in that spot now. And the reality is if you're not in that spot now, it's coming.
Speaker 2:No. For sure. I I wish I could tell you that it was mountaintop mountaintop mountaintop heaven, but it isn't. Right? It's mountaintop valley.
Speaker 2:Mountaintop, yay. Valley. But you know what? Fruit doesn't grow in mountains. Fruit grows in the valley.
Speaker 2:You know, who we are is being forged in the valley. And so I think like if you're in one of those valley moments, a couple of things. I think I would write somewhere so you could see it. It's not the end of the story. I had to tell myself that on a regular basis.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then I would do something about gratitude. So if that's a journal, something. For me, I needed more of a job, not so much the journaler person. So Yeah.
Speaker 2:The jar worked for me, but I that that's a huge, biblical principle that I think can break a lot of chains. So I would start something about gratitude because also it takes your focus off of the you know, the situation you're in. Right. And sometimes we get so focused on the pain that we're in. And we that we need to lift our heads up because, know, as I mentioned today in church, there's like people who are in far worse situations than you also, by the way.
Speaker 2:Right. But so just look up, find something to be grateful for. And you won't go wrong with that.
Speaker 1:That's so, so, so good. Oh, that's so good.
Speaker 2:You know, my daughter Yeah. Is now she's a nine eleven operator.
Speaker 1:And so Same daughter?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Same daughter, nine eleven operator. And so she was telling me that she's his mom had the when she was first doing that job, she said I had a really just tricky situation because I would take a really tragic call. So maybe the death of a child. So she's, you know, managing that on 09:11.
Speaker 2:And then she was then I would go home and my teenage daughter is complaining about a zit. And she goes, okay. You know, would want to, my instinct would want to just go, that's nothing compared to, but it's all real. Right? Everybody's It's that pain competition.
Speaker 2:Right. You can't do that, right? So we all have pain. And so everybody in their pain needs to remember it's not the end of the story
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And find something to be grateful for.
Speaker 1:That is so, so good. Oh, thank you for these words of encouragement.
Speaker 2:I'm just so
Speaker 1:very grateful for your ministry and just can't wait to hear more from you in the future. Truly. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thanks for joining the conversation.
Speaker 1:We look forward to meeting again next time on the overflow.