Near Future Podcast

Tom and Jonny sit down with Frank Bach, a product designer at Anthropic who built his own design tool during onboarding week. They dig into why he prototypes in HTML instead of Figma, unpack his Swiss Army knife career from Red Bull to Headspace to Instagram, and get his advice for designers feeling the AI squeeze.
Key takeaways
  1. Build the tool while you build the work. Frank made his design tool feature by feature during his first project at Anthropic, adding each part the moment he hit the need for it. A share function when he wanted to show his PM, then a Loom-style recording feature the next day, camera feed and all, in about three prompts.
  2. Load a control and a variant side by side and click them in sync. The most unusual thing he built steps two prototypes through the same screens on a single click. He is hoping Figma steals the idea.
  3. Most people inside a company have never seen the screens they own. Everyone at Headspace got the app free, so nobody had laid eyes on an upsell screen in years. A live side-by-side of current state and proposed state is what gave leadership the confidence to green-light the work.
  4. Begin anywhere. Frank has turned John Cage’s line into a working design principle. What matters is having something to click, see and feel, and the details get figured out along the way.
  5. Variety compounds differently to mastery. Energy drinks at Red Bull, meditation at Headspace, then social media at Instagram: every jump was chosen on purpose. He calls himself a Swiss Army knife of design, and reckons it is what makes someone stand out in an interview panel.
  6. Learning the tools on the company dime is a real benefit worth asking for. DoorDash set a goal it called Design 2028, where every designer becomes a design engineer, and gave people the time and space to get there. Frank admits he complained about it at first and is now grateful he did not have to learn it in his own hours.
  7. A lot of people working hard on something is a reason for empathy, and the metric still decides whether it worked. Frank got pushback from a former colleague for publicly critiquing a feature. His read: designers who want to talk business have to be able to talk about failures like adults, because there is not a lot of emotion in business.
  8. Do the next project’s pre-work before you get to it. Frank queues up a foundation on the Tuesday so that Monday’s project starts from something rather than a blank page. Half of it may be throwaway, and a PM running agents can now come back in a morning with what used to take a two-week sprint.
  9. Solve one of your own problems and it becomes the standout project in your portfolio. For anyone in an organisation with no AI budget and no guidance from above, that is Frank’s route through. A grocery list app or a plugin for a digital guitar amp both count, imperfect included.
  10. Old, slightly bad technology is a good counterweight to this pace. Frank keeps a five-inch black-and-white Quasar countertop television on his desk, one channel and a radio dial. He calls it poorly designed and perfectly designed at the same time, the same pull that took people back to vinyl.
  11. Close the 100 tabs and learn one thing today. His answer to feeling overwhelmed in an AI-first company. Nobody has landed on a perfect process yet, which means the process is still yours to shape, and he found that anxiety and excitement flipped over into each other almost overnight.
Chapters
  • 0:04 — Bureau, Edenspiekermann, Headspace, Instagram, DoorDash: the run-up to Anthropic
  • 2:18 — A day at Anthropic, where a 12-month roadmap makes no sense
  • 4:32 — The LinkedIn post that started all this
  • 5:03 — A quiet onboarding week and an enterprise Claude account
  • 7:46 — “How do I share this?” A share function, then a Loom feature, in three prompts
  • 9:14 — Shortcut keys, screen glimmers and museum wallpapers
  • 10:18 — Accidentally rebuilding Claude Design, backwards
  • 11:24 — Sunshine Shop, WooCommerce and total cowboy mode
  • 12:33 — Will the Frank tool still be around in 12 months?
  • 13:37 — Two prototypes side by side, clicking in sync
  • 15:41 — Where the line sits between human and AI
  • 16:43 — Mega tools, workspaces and a live command line
  • 18:54 — Energy drinks to meditation to social media: the Swiss Army knife career
  • 21:07 — Mastery versus invention, and naming the Frank Mega Tool
  • 23:52 — DoorDash’s Design 2028, and a quarterly meetup as a forcing function
  • 27:30 — Accountants, lawyers, and doing your taxes with an AI tool
  • 29:19 — The weirdest design processes he has come across
  • 32:19 — John Cage: begin anywhere
  • 34:13 — Critiquing an old colleague’s feature, and the fallout
  • 37:00 — Advice for designers with no budget and no backing
  • 41:14 — Mathematicians, art, Spotify and Suno
  • 42:55 — Quickfire: AGI takes over, what do you do with the time?
  • 43:59 — Quickfire: the five-inch Quasar TV that is perfectly badly designed
  • 45:59 — Staying grounded when the pace is this intense
  • 48:41 — Close your 100 tabs and learn one thing today
Mentioned in the episode
Frank
Companies and past roles
People
Tools and products discussed
Events
About the pod

Creators and Guests

Host
Jonny Burch
Co-founder of Near Future
Host
Tom Harman
Co-founder of Near Future

What is Near Future Podcast?

A regular podcast covering design and AI from the founders of Near Future, a boutique AI consultancy focused on teams that care about craft. We cover both what we're seeing on the ground and industry trends, ways of working and occasional guests from the design world.

Jonny: Hi, everyone.

Welcome to another episode of the Near
Future Podcast with Tom and Jonny.

Today, we're joined by Frank Bach,
who, is a designer at Anthropic

via some incredible companies.

I've probably been following you for
a little while, Frank, on, on Twitter.

But, something you posted maybe on
LinkedIn actually really caught my eye

a- about a month ago, and I reached out.

Very happy to have you here.

We're gonna get into that in a bit,
but before that, I'll just, give a

quick run-through of, of your bio as I
understand it, and, and, you can then

correct me if I, I've got anything wrong.

But, you-- back in the day, in the, in
the early days, you, were a-- you started

Bureau, which is a, was a design agency.

Frank Bach: We're going way back.

I

Jonny: yeah, way back.

Way back.

Important to get some, yeah, get
some, get some deep cuts in, in here.

Show we've done our, our,

so, started Bureau.

that went until sort of 2015 time, and
then Edenspiekermann, is that right?

And then,

Frank Bach: Yes

Jonny: and then Headspace for seven years.

and Headspace really cut
through here as well.

You know, I feel like all of
us downloaded it, used it.

something absolutely incredible product.

it started by an Englishman, I believe.

We can probably talk
about that a little bit.

and, a- and just, you know, as
designers, it was one of those,

if I need inspiration, I open,
open that app, fairly soon.

so, so it would be amazing to
hear a little bit more about that.

then Instagram and DoorDash and,
now at Anthropic as of recently.

So we'll probably start at
the, start at Anthropic.

But if you want to go deep, deep on
something, then, then do let us know,

and we can get into some, some of y-
some of your sort of side stuff as well.

there's, there's tons going on.

So opening question: What does a day in
the life of Frank at Anthropic look like?

and,

Frank Bach: Great.

Jonny: know, how does the design team
function and, and, I'd love to just hear

how you, how you guys design over there.

Frank Bach: Yeah, absolutely.

I wish there was a, a perfect
answer to that question, but it

really definitely changes every day.

what is a day of designing
at Anthropic like?

I think the, the speed at which the
technology is moving, and it's probably

similar, a similar vibe at a lot
of these kind of AI lab companies,

is it's all moving so quickly.

There's, you know, there's regulation,
there's, there's new technologies,

there's new data centers being built.

Like, all this stuff
is happening kind of…

What's that movie?

Like, everything everywhere
all at once kind of thing.

Like, that's sort of the feeling.

the pace is very intense, and I would
say it's not unusual, that you will,

know, like a, like a 12-month roadmap
probably doesn't make any sense.

Like, you're sort of
reprioritizing things on the day.

so for people who really thrive in,
like, a super structured sort of like,

"I need to know what I'm doing over the,
over the next several months," it would

probably be a bit of a tough place to be.

people who thrive on, you know,
if you have maybe have a bit of an

entrepreneurial mindset and you get…

You know, you're energized by the speed of
things, I think that it, it becomes a very

fun place to work, of like, you know, you
don't really know what's coming tomorrow.

if you can live with that
unpredictability, then awesome.

so that's-- I, I'm feeling, like,
super, super energized by it all.

And I was, you know, just before
this job, I was at DoorDash, and

I, I quite enjoyed my time there.

and then before that, Instagram.

Both those companies were very much,
sort of reset the roadmap every six

months kind of situations, where you
would, you know, you'd build these

long, elaborate presentations that
would sort of show what is my big bet

for the next three to six months, and,
like, how have we found conviction

and what do we believe in and what's
our North Star and all these things.

And, like, those are great skills to have,
and you become kind of a good storyteller.

but when it comes to, like, what stuff
actually got built at the end of the

year, it's a totally different story.

so being here and, like, you know,
boots on the ground, sort of like

builder mode, we're making things every
single day, I'm absolutely loving it.

You know, I think it, you know, the
hours can be long and the work's

intense, but I finish every day feeling
like, "Holy shit, that was a day.

That was like, that was fun."

Like…

Jonny: Awesome.

you posted recently, and this, this
is the post that caught my eye and

Frank Bach: Yeah

Jonny: I decided I just had to,
had to drop you a, drop you a DM.

But, you described building
your own design tool,

Frank Bach: Yes

Jonny: and, that was what?

A month ago maybe.

first of all, can you describe it to us?

You know, it's-- it was, slightly
mysterious in your LinkedIn post that

we'll put in the show notes, but,

Frank Bach: I know

Jonny: can you describe a little bit
more how it works and, and you know,

Frank Bach: For

Jonny: where is it up to now?

Is it, has it ca- carried on evolving?

Frank Bach: For sure.

So the, yeah, that LinkedIn
post kind of took off.

I wasn't expecting that, and it's
led to a lot of, interesting DMs of

people wanting me to show the tool.

Unfortunately, I cannot show the tool.

I wish I could.

Maybe one day it will be a case
study, of mine, and I'll have to

sort of strip away all the, all
the, the sort of inside information.

But I'll do my best to explain it.

I started at Anthropic.

People told me, "This place is crazy.

It's intense.

onboarding weeks will be the, you know,
the lightest sort of weeks of the job."

You know, pretty typical of any, any job
before you really hit your first project.

And I think when I was at DoorDash,
we were getting really into the, the

AI tooling, but it was sort of in
this like half Figma, half, you know,

dabbling in Cursor, Claude, et cetera.

And you sort of like don't really know
where, to start, where to, you know,

how do I start a project these days?

You know, is it a new page in
Figma or like what do I even do?

And I thought, you know what?

There's this, there's this vibe right
now that-- And I don't know if it's,

it's right or wrong, but the people
who tend to stand out right now are

the people who are not using Figma.

I'm sure it's just a trend, a
moment we're kind of going through

and I thought, "You know what?

I'm right here.

I'm in this AI company.

I should probably make the best
of the situation and kind of like

during my chill, chill onboarding
week, see what I can get up to."

You know?

Like I, I've got, you know, I've got
a enterprise Claude account, lots of

tokens, and I can make cool stuff.

So where, you know, what the hell?

Why not?

And then so I, I got my first project,
that was like, you know, sort of most

jobs you'll start your first, your
first project is kind of like a softball

thing just to kind of get into the
design system and, you know, kind of get

your, get your feet wet, so to speak.

And, I, I kick this project off
and I'm, I'm kind of using Claude

to, generate HTML prototypes
of, of what I'm trying to build.

And Claude was already hooked
up to the design system, so

it's all coming out, you know.

Thankfully, designing with Claude looks,
it kind of looks like Claude all the time.

So when you are building
Claude, it's great.

You know?

When, when you're trying to
build something else that kind

of looks like Claude, it can be
a bit of a different situation.

so I'm, I'm building this prototype
and I'm, you know, I'm feeling,

man, this is-- I'm having fun.

I'm just prompting, typing.

It's kind of I'm generating stuff at a
speed that I've never quite done before.

You know, gone are, I think gone
are the days of spending three

to four weeks, know, finessing
the settings screen or whatever.

You know, like we're not,
we're not doing that anymore.

We're…

And I'm building this thing and I'm
g- I'm getting excited about this.

Okay, cool, great.

I've, I've like I, I sort of
hit this moment I should share

this with my product manager.

Okay.

How do I even share it
with my product manager?

I go, "Shoot, maybe I
should have been in Figma.

I've taken a really bad s- you
know, a big misstep here and

I've totally wasted my time.

So how would I rebuild what I've
done in this prototype in Figma?"

Then I go, "Wait a second."

I prompt it, you know.

What if I make a share function?

Okay, now we got a share function.

Okay, cool.

This is starting to become something.

I can share the project.

And then my, my product manager
was away that day or something

and I go, "You know what?

Maybe I should record a Loom
video of like walking through it."

And then I just prompt it, "Hey,
generate me, make me a Loom feature."

And then boom, it's there.

And it's like it's not quite
perfect, but it's sort of there.

I'm like, "Holy gee-" Like, in like
three prompts I've got my f- my camera

facing like in, you know, feed in the
f- in the HTML prototype and a share

link and I'm like, I, I'm just in this
like insane workflow that I've never,

you know, I haven't felt in years,
'cause we've gotten so used to just

the classic Figma way of doing things.

And this is not a, a
diss at Figma in any way.

I think they're fantastic.

but I was just like, I'm like,
"Oh my God," I'm-- it's like

riding a bike for the first time.

I'm like, "I'm really doing it.

I'm really building."

You know, it's like something
I've not done before.

And, you know, like just feature by
feature I'm sort of building the thing

I need in the moment, on the side
of building the project, you know?

So I'm like of like not even aware that
I'm doing this, but eventually I've got

this fully functioning like mini tool
that's perfect for what I needed that day.

Jonny: Right

Frank Bach: I sort of hit
the next wall which was, that

project is kind of complete.

Now here's your next project."

"Okay, where do I begin for this one?"

And I go, "Okay, what if I sort of back
up from this, this project and build

a container for multiple projects?"

So now I'm kind of like rebuilding,
you know, the Figma sort of

recent project screen in a way.

And then I start doing all
these ridiculous things.

I'm like, "Oh, I'm having so much fun.

What if my, What if I make
like some shortcut keys?

If I hit the R button on
my keyboard it refreshes.

What if I add like a
glimmer over the screen?

What if, what if every time I refresh
I get, a wallpaper background of

like a piece of artwork from a
museum so I'm like inspired by

seeing new things all the time?"

And I'm like, "You would never ship
this in a enterprise tool to the world."

But for me and what I needed that day and
that week was like, "This is awesome."

And then I'm, you know, people
got pretty excited about it.

My manager told me, "You should record
a video using the tool and share it

with the team," and like, you know,
hopefully being able to inspire

some of the Claude Design stuff.

And then like in some kind of backwards
way I sort of rebuilt a like Frank's

crazy version of Claude Design.

you know.

And so yeah, that, that's
kind of the story there.

And, at this point now
I'm still using that tool.

I've definitely like leaned
more into the Figma usage.

but yeah, it was, it was a, it was a
really fun, exciting time of, yeah, just,

just seeing what is really possible with,
you know, access to all of these tools.

Jonny: It's a really good example of like,

think and act and, and design
just sort of emerging out of you.

whether you would call it design
or it probably is, you know,

y- your-- I, I need this thing.

This is the vibe right
now, depending on my mood

Frank Bach: Right.

Jonny: at this moment in time, I'm
gonna add something superfluous or

Frank Bach: Right.

Jonny: and I don't need
to justify it to anyone.

And then you look back to it and
you're like, "This is a mess," but,

Frank Bach: Yeah.

Jonny: you know, it w-
it might mean something.

It-- There might be some value in this,

Frank Bach: Totally,

Jonny: the fact

Frank Bach: it, it led to work that
was built so that, you know, it doesn't

really matter what you made it in, it
just, it, did it ship or did it not?

And that's really

Jonny: Yeah

Frank Bach: the most important thing.

I think we've, we've all spent probably
a lot of time, you know, refining

design components and things like this,
and then you look at the, the actual

production component library, and it
looks nothing like the system you're

working with in Figma, and, like,
just trying to bridge that gap and

get those two things more connected.

yeah, it's just, it's totally
changed the way I not just work,

but think about the work, I guess.

when I look at some of my sort of side
projects and things that I've done

for fun, it kinda was the way I would
work anyway, but for some strange

reason, I, I sort of separated my, the
process of building my side projects

was, like, very different from the way
I would operate as a product designer

within a company, if that makes sense.

'cause I've, like, I have an e-comm
store called Sunshine Shop, that was, you

know, basically built on a W- WordPress
WooCommerce template that I just hacked

together and connected bits and pieces
and print on demand and connected a

shipping calculator and just sort of
like, there's no Figma for that project.

Jonny: Yeah

Frank Bach: on the web.

It was, like, straight
to FTP upload, you know?

Just like total cowboy mode, know?

Tom: you mentioned at the end there,
Frank, how you have recently been

going back to Figma a bit, and

Frank Bach: Yeah.

Yeah

Tom: Superfrank tool that you've built
is something that you see yourself

using in six months or 12 months.

Is it something you're gonna continually
evolve, or do you think it's more of

a certain shape for a certain type of
project, but actually it's just one tool

and Figma is another tool and you'll use
go back and forth between them regularly?

Frank Bach: Yeah, I think I'll use my
Frank tool as sort of an HTML prototype,

tool, and then there's probably
some ways to better connect

the Figma files to that tool.

I just haven't quite figured it out yet.

They're kind of two separate paths.

but for the nature of the work I'm doing,
I'm on a growth team, so, you know, a

lot of sort of A/B testing and like that.

the Frank tool seems to be very, very
good for, like, growth-type design.

so yeah, I think I'll, I'll
come back to it for sure.

it's just, yeah, when, when those
projects land, I'll sort of have to

pick like, you know, path A or path B

Tom: Yeah, totally.

I think there's something else in the
post that you shared that specifically

talked about your mental model and
having a tool that, that mapped

to your mental model of things.

was there anything about this tool
that was very unusual compared to

other tools in the market, or was

Frank Bach: Yeah

Tom: the amalgamation of features
that was the, good thing?

Frank Bach: I think the most unusual
thing that I built, and I, I hope

Figma steals this idea and somebody,
you know, or somebody builds something

this, was that I'm often, you know,
if you're working in growth type

projects, you've, you've got your,
your control and then your, you know,

your variants A, B, C, D, however many,
you know, you might be run-- you could

run two tests or 12 tests, who knows?

Depends on the project.

built a function where I could load
up two prototypes at once, sort of

like side by side split screen, and
as I'm clicking either one of them,

they're both progressing through
the screens at the same time.

And that became really helpful for
sharing to design leadership of

like, what's the current state?

'Cause most people don't even know the
current state of most products they're

working on, 'cause we, you know, even when
I worked at Headspace, like I was working

on, on upsell conversion type screens,
but everyone who works at Headspace

doesn't have to pay for the app, so they
haven't seen those screens in years.

You know?

So sort of like there's always
this question of like, what is

the current state of things?

And so, being able to click through two
prototypes sort of with one click and

sort of give you this live view of like,
here's what's changing on this screen,

here's what's changing on this screen,
here, you know, and, and give a feel and

build up that confidence for people to
agree, like, you know, give you the green

light for that project felt very powerful.

and that's probably one way that I'll
keep, definitely keep using this tool.

but yeah, incredible-- Like it was almost
something that Claude did by accident.

I, I, I sort of explained what I was
roughly looking for and I was like,

"Oh damn, this is like, this is even
better than I thought it would be,"

which I think a lot of people are, are
feeling, when they're using these, these

Jonny: Mm.

Tom: Yeah, absolutely.

Jonny: accidents, yeah

Frank Bach: Yeah, yeah

Tom: one, one thing, thing we found
with the guests we've been speaking

to recently, everyone has a different
interpretation of where the line is

for what they want to retain as a
human versus what they're happy to

Frank Bach: Yeah

Tom: the AI.

but when I think about Figma, I think of
it being very much a, like here are all

the things at my disposal and I'm just

Frank Bach: I see

Tom: in the tool they need to
craft the output that I want.

But the world you're describing feels
a bit more dynamic and interactive and

fluid, and I could imagine that having
potential to incorporate, I don't

know, dynamic aspects of how customers
are using the product right now.

and

Frank Bach: Yeah

Tom: more about, yeah, that sort
of user research side of, the sort

of a multivariate testing side of,

Frank Bach: Right

Tom: so this is less about what your
plans are specific with the tool, but more

about you see the limits of this tool.

Is that something that would

Frank Bach: Yes

Tom: in the r- world of possibility,
or are you more on the like, I want to

control the things and this is just a much
nicer surface to control those things in?

Frank Bach: I think there's a future
where, like, just have these sort of mega

tools that can do almost anything and
you're, I don't know, you-- like, on a

per user basis, you could sort of toggle
on and off, what you're looking for.

I wonder sometimes, like, you know, like,
like Illustrator or Photoshop, kind of

have been doing this for many years,
where you've got different workspaces and

they'll sort of pull up different features
that you might need in that moment.

but yeah, I, I could totally see a future
tool that just has a live command line,

you know, maybe along the bottom that
you can just constantly type into and

you're just reshaping the tool as you go.

I don't know, maybe there's a, there's
a big reset button at some point when

you've gone too far and it's you've,
you've created a, a, a monster.

But, yeah, I do like this idea that,
like, I can continuously evolve the tool

for myself, almost like a shortcut into
Claude, if that makes sense, the tool.

I think that would be very, very fun.

does everybody want to do that?

I don't know.

I mean, maybe it takes some special,
like, unique people who wanna work in

that way, but I also, like- Yeah, I
think it, it opens up this big sort of

existential question or for designers
of, know, do we, sort of make, sort of

just continue the, the path of making
our own tools and what works for us and

does that scale across design teams?

I don't know.

Does-- Or are we better off to just
kind of continue, with these more

enterprise tools that, that are, like,
more one-size-fits-all type things?

again, I, I-- Before working
on Claude, I'd never worked…

I'd mostly worked on mobile apps.

I'd never worked on, software in this way,
so I feel like I'm getting a crazy crash

course in, like, not just designing tools,
but, like, all I think about is tools now.

and I think that's, like, a, a theme
going back to my many different jobs

before this was I think I, I, I've taken
something and learned, like, learned

something new that was very unique to
that specific job with every role, and

it's kind of like a, something that's
important to me as I've been working

through my career that I don't want
to be a one-size-fits-all designer.

Like, I've, I've met, you know, I've
met folks who are, like, absolutely

incredible at B2B dashboards.

Like, that is their jam.

They do it very well.

They do this all day.

It's all they want to do.

That's amazing.

I love that for them.

But for me, I was like, I, I really like,
variety in experiences, and so that's kind

of why I went, you know, founded a studio.

I went to Red Bull.

when I worked at, Edenspiekermann,
our main client was Red Bull.

We were very much an integrated team.

and then, you know, energy
drinks to meditation.

Doesn't make any sense, but, like, that
was very exciting to me of like, okay, I

want, like, whatever this is is fun, but
I think I want the opposite now, you know?

so I go meditation, and then, working
on a meditation app, Headspace, we were

focused a lot on kind of getting you off
your phone and into the present moment.

And then I went to social media,
which you could argue is the

total opposite of, like, how do
we get you more in your phone?

so I don't know.

I j- I think I, I, I've become a bit of,
like, a Swiss Army knife of, of design.

Not to toot my own horn too
much, but I, I really…

I, I did this all on purpose.

This was all very, intentional that I
wanted to come out of this, I guess,

out of this career having had a lot of
different experiences and just, like I

think I have a ge- a genuine interest
in business and how, the various, like

business structures and how companies
make money, whether that's through

subscription, through, you know, one-time
fees, through advertising revenue.

Like just learning, all of these different
ways that, that businesses operate and,

and you know, that you can earn a living.

I think, you know, I, I don't know
that this is the, end of my career, but

I could see myself, compiling all of
that information into like, you know,

into whatever it is I do next, which I

Jonny: Mm-hmm.

Frank Bach: know what it is.

I hope it's Claude for a very long time.

but you know, I, I, I think that I
could give advice to younger designers,

folks who are maybe in school trying
to sort of chart their path forward, I

would, I would go for like variety and
experiences 'cause I think it makes you,

much more interesting, you're like kind
of in those interview panels and you

really stand out against other people

Jonny: Mm-hmm.

That's really interesting and,
and, I recognize, I recognize

that feeling of, I'm not sure it's
getting bored easily, but it's, it

is wanting to find something new.

Frank Bach: Yeah

Jonny: And often I'm envious of the
people that are willing to just compound

one thing over and over again and
just, like, become a master at it.

I do feel like, I don't know if it's
zero sum, but, this sort of mastery

versus invention paradigm, like either
I want to spend a bit of time mastering

something and then I actually just
want to mess it all up and, like,

Frank Bach: Right.

Jonny: difficulty for myself once again.

Frank Bach: Yeah

Jonny: and y- you talking about,
the, the Frank Mega tool or whatever

we're calling it on this podcast,
does it have a name or is it

Frank Bach: I think
it's called Frank Space.

Jonny: space.

Love it.

Okay.

Frank Bach: one.

It's, it's gone through different…

People at, at work call
it different things.

Then yeah, Frank Space, Bach Space, the
Frank Mega Tool has definitely been thrown

Jonny: Frank Megatool.

Yeah.

well Fr- Frank Megatool sort of,
I, I, I wonder if that is the

same thing on a smaller level.

Like, you want to create something
ephemeral that's, like, suits one

problem, and then maybe a certain
willingness to throw it, throw

it away and, and not master it.

and then create something new
and, and find a new challenge and

build something different for it.

Frank Bach: Yeah

Jonny: I love what you're saying about
tools and, you know, how much do we

master the tool given to us versus how
much do we invent, a tool for ourselves.

and so, yeah, definitely music to my ears.

And

Frank Bach: Yeah

Jonny: are-- I think what we've
learnt on this podcast over the

16 episodes prior to this is that
we're on the fence about Figma.

Frank Bach: Yeah.

Jonny: We, we,

Frank Bach: Yeah

Jonny: you know, that this is-- it's
been at the center of, designer's

world for, well, probably a decade
now, not far off a decade actually.

And then before that, there was,
there was Sketch, and before

that, there was Illustrator.

You know, you go back and you--
There's, there's a, there's,

someone sits on the throne.

Frank Bach: Mm-hmm

Jonny: and so to explore the possibility
of there being more than one tool and

for us to be able to create tools for
ourselves or for our teams, is exciting.

I did want to ask you, as you think about
the design industry in general, I know

you, you, you run this, meetup in LA.

You, y- you know probably more
designers than, all of us put

together, and, and speak to them.

How much do you get a sense of
this last couple of years changing,

for everyone versus you joining
Anthropic was a different culture, and

therefore you work differently there?

Like, are you seeing other people
doing similar things elsewhere?

Frank Bach: Yeah.

So the-- will say even during my
time at, at DoorDash, we kind of

entered the transition into AI tools.

The company had this big mission,
you know, like, desi- they called

it, I think Design 2028 or something.

As by 2028, everyone who's a
designer at DoorDash is, is

basically a design engineer.

You know, we need to lean into this, and
the design leadership there was amazing

to, you know, to give us the time and
space to do that, 'cause otherwise I

would, I would've had to learn it, you
know, not on the company dime, I guess.

You know?

So th-thank goodness for that.

I'm very grateful.

and yeah, at, at first I
definitely complained about it.

I was, "Ah, I don't feel like, you
know, I don't wanna learn a new tool.

Learning new things is

Jonny: Mm.

Frank Bach: You know, kind of the,
the human sort of complacency that,

you know, s-sometimes it's okay
that a job is just a job and it

doesn't have to be the most exciting,
incredible thing you're doing that day.

so I definitely like leaned into
that, like a little bit of a

negative mindset around it, and
I was, you know, was venting to

other coworkers about this too and

organizing these meetups in LA.

We do them every quarter and, the kind of
backstory around this is, we can talk a

little bit more about it in a second, but
I see it as a good forcing of function for

myself to get out of the house and talk to
people for like sort of work-ish reasons.

you know, I'm a, I'm a father
of a six-year-old, I have a wife

and, you know, you know, stay
very busy with family stuff.

And so to have this thing that doesn't
feel like just an irresponsible, you

know, adventure to the bar by myself
sort of thing, you know, I, I sort of

have this work-related reason to do this.

So very s- very selfishly, set up these
meetups every quarter and thankfully

people keep showing up to them.

but I've definitely caught that trend
of there's sort of the, sort of a 50/50

split of the people who are really
excited and they can't believe that

we're like really doing this, and then
there's the people who are kind of

leaning more sort of classic UX-y type

Jonny: Mm-hmm.

Frank Bach: are, is very valuable.

I try not to spend a lot of time
on the UX design Reddit that feels

like a place where there's a lot
of complaining about the way our

industry is headed, and I don't think
it's, an all or nothing situation.

I think there are ways you can,
you can, you know, amplify and,

and speed up the research process
and the iteration process.

not everything needs to be a
like one-shotted, you know,

very vanilla bland prototype.

I think that you can make some really
incredible things and actually, Yeah, I

think there's this like, this storyline
around like using AI tools means you're

not doing research or something, or you're
like, you're, you're skipping a lot of

the steps that you're supposed to take.

yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't believe
in that, I guess is, is where I'm headed.

but I've definitely had a shift in the
way I thought about these tools and about

this process and now the, like the…

And I, and I'm seeing that in the meetups,
and also just, yeah, forcing myself to

talk to people and get, sort of read the
room and get a pulse of the industry and

where are people's heads at with this.

And I mean, I don't know if it is,
if people have just been forced into

having to adopt the tools at this point.

I think there is some truth to like
if you're not adopting these tools,

it will be really hard for you to
be employed in the f- in the future.

and that is not a,

Yeah, I, I, I think that's just
the reality of the situation.

It's not design only.

I think, like I, I have friends
who are accountants and lawyers

and doctors and, they are all using
AI tools to, you know, to speed up

their processes or, or save time.

And, you know, personally, I did my--
Last year I did my, my income tax

with, with an AI, AI tool, you know.

And like I used to spend, you know,
two-- I used to spend a whole weekend

organizing my receipts and my, you
know, making sure all my filings

were, were proper and stuff like that.

And now I can just send an AI tool
to filter through my Dropbox and

just like, just see it go to work.

And I'm just like, "My goodne-" Like I,
I, I trust that it did the right thing.

I hope it's right.

I'll find out later if it wasn't.

But, probably did a better job
than I would've myself, you know.

So I'm like, do I really wanna spend
two days on a Saturday and Sunday doing

my taxes when I could probably do it in
45 minutes just prompting an AI tool?

So again, that's like long story
around this, but, I think design is

kind of going through that right now,
and sounds like you guys are, are

kind of hearing and seeing similar.

Yeah.

Tom: Yeah, very much so.

it seems like it does-- There is this,
not divide, but there are companies who

are very AI, AI-driven, AI first, and

Frank Bach: Yeah

Tom: there are a bunch of companies
that, that is not, maybe they're

playing catch up or they're not

Frank Bach: Yes

Tom: enough to be investing as much there.

So I think it just, I guess it
leads to a spectrum of how far

along people are individually.

we run a, a meetup here in
London, monthly-ish meetup for

Frank Bach: Nice

Tom: specifically focused around
AI as sort of an extension

of this podcast in some way.

and so yeah, that has been quite, quite

Frank Bach: Yeah.

Tom: get a glimpse into how people's

Frank Bach: Yeah

Tom: changing and how, how the tools that
they're all, everyone's working with.

I did actually have a question
with you, for you about, mentioned,

I think in another post about
weird design processes and how,

Frank Bach: yeah

Tom: how processes should be, should be
weirder or that that's an interesting

topic of conversation for you.

I'm curious, what is the, the weirdest
design process you've come across?

And whether that's someone at the meetup,
someone at Anthropic, yourself, yeah,

curious if that sparks anything for you.

Frank Bach: Yeah, I think there's
so many different ways to do this

now, and there-- I don't think
that there's a right or wrong way.

I mean, I've met designers
who are, they're just--

they're basically engineers.

They're just straight in working
it, you know, working on staging and

pushing it to production, and there's
no Figma file that even exists.

They are just doing the thing that, that
engineers have been doing for years.

then there's folks who are like I, I've--
I'm hearing a lot of the, you know,

kind of the Whisper tool, where you're,
you're spending time basically just

ch- talking into a microphone, telling,
telling the tool what to do all day long.

Sounds pretty tiring on the voice.

I don't know if I'd want
to do that all day long.

But, I'm also seeing that, like,
because of prompting, my, like,

my, you know, we'll probably end up
with carpal tunnel syndrome at some

point 'cause we're typing probably
a lot more than we used to, right?

so that's, like, very, you
know, there's, like, some, some

ergonomics, thing going on there.

I think the, the strangest or most
interesting, process I've seen is, people

having, sort of having the, the tools run
research or run, try to build themselves,

you know, in the off hours of, you know.

So you're, you sort of wake up in the
morning to that your AI tool has, has

given you of, like, suggestions for
the day on what you might do today.

And, like, at what point does that loop
fully close, where you're just sort of a

human observing the thing building, and
you're like, you know, you just give it

the thumbs up or thumbs down, you know?

I think it's great to always have a
person in control of these things, but

it is getting pretty weird pretty fast.

And, like, I, I'm discovering new things
every day working with folks of, like,

a product manager of mine who, you know,
who's, who's running agents, doing all

these other things and, like, come,
comes back with a ton of research and

insights that, like, you didn't-- It
would have normally been a two-week

sprint to even get to that point, right?

And, like, so you're just sort of-- I'm
finding myself doing a lot of, like,

future predicting the work that I need
to do before I even get to the work.

So I'm sort of, like, getting my tools
to-- that once I get to the work, like

let's say, we're, a Tuesday today,
like, by-- I'm gonna, I'm gonna do

some pre-work so that by Monday, that
next project is kind of queued up

and I'm not starting from scratch.

even if, like, half the stuff is,
is throwaway, at least I've got,

like, a good foundation to begin on.

and there's, there's this,

Tom: thing

Frank Bach: what's the quote?

There's a, There's a quote
by John Cage, j- it's simple.

It's just, "Begin anywhere."

And I think that, like, I, that used to
be sort of a, I don't know, a little bit

of, like, a mindfulness reminder that I
would give myself, and it's definitely

coming, coming true more and more in
my design process of, like, it actually

doesn't really matter where you start.

It's so

Jonny: Right

Frank Bach: to build, to build things and,
and give something to react to, to see, to

click, to feel, that just start anywhere
and, figure out the details as you go.

And I think I've been a, a big
proponent of, like, you can do the

research upfront and sort of de-risk
the design, and that's, that's fine.

you can also build the thing and
then learn from the results or,

or lack of results that you maybe
built the wrong thing, or maybe

there's it- iteration you can do.

I think just don't stand still.

Just start somewhere and do something.

And, you know, builders, like the
f- you know, cliche maybe, but I

think the future is, of design is,
is for builders and people who make

stuff, stuff that lives and breathes
in the real world, not just sits in

our drafts, and PRDs for, you know.

yeah, that's, that's my, my
soapbox for the day there.

Jonny: It's, it's a good one.

It's a good one.

W- I think we, we often preach
something similar, which is,

which is just to, to get started.

The only way to understand how to
do this stuff is to just do it.

so,

And, and the cost to delete anything is,
like, I-- To me, the one that, that gets

me is, like, it's cheap to create, but
also because it was so cheap to create,

I f- I feel nothing for it, you know?

Whereas one of the, the classic designer
tropes is falling in love with your design

and then defending it and being blind to--
i-in the face of evidence to the contrary.

s-

Frank Bach: Absolutely.

I, I'll, I'll add to that.

I had a moment, I won't name the product,
but something that I worked on years ago.

they launched a new feature,
and I was, I was pretty vocal

in, in critiquing this feature.

I think I felt a little bit passionate
by it because it was something

that I, I wished we had built
during my time at this company.

And then I heard from a, an old colleague
who worked on the feature who wasn't very

happy that I was so critical of the work.

And, you know, sort of my-- maybe
I've, I'm a little bit too hardcore in

my sort of business sense these days.

but I, you know, if it doesn't produce
results, it doesn't really matter.

you know, if we're gonna go har-
like sup- you know, of course I'm

an ar- also a creative and artistic
person, and I think it's valuable

to build things for fun and joy and,
and just for the sake of building.

But if we're here and we're measuring
success and we have metrics to,

to, to measure against, then if
the thing you built didn't deliver

that, it was kind of a huge waste of
time, and I don't know, not saying,

you should be ashamed of your…

I'm just kidding.

But it's like, it's like it didn't do the
thing you wanted it to do, so you should

be-- we sh- we're all adults here and we
can talk about the failures and successes.

Anyway, this colleague of, this
colleague of mine back and said,

"I didn't really appreciate you
were so vocal of, about this.

A lot of people worked
really hard on this."

And it was sort of like, yes, I'm a human
and I'm empathetic, and I understand that.

That is, that, that makes a lot of sense
and, you know, sort of maybe I was a

little too harsh with my criticism.

just the fact that a lot of people
put time and effort into something

doesn't mean we should just praise
it, it, know, because they did.

Like,

Jonny: Right

Frank Bach: doesn't really make sense.

so again, I, I sort of took it back.

I was a little harsh, but,
you guys get what I'm saying.

It's

Jonny: Yeah

Frank Bach: didn't do, it didn't do
what it needed to do, and we're all

working in tech and startups, and many
of us have equity in the companies we

worked on in the past, and we wanna
see them be successful, and we wanna,

you know, we wanna see them have their
liquidity event or whatever that might be.

and like, yeah, if we're-- lot of
designers talk big game about, you know,

product management and doing right by
the business and things, and it's like,

well, if you're gonna talk like that,
let's like, let's talk business, and

there's not, unfortunately, there's
not a lot of emotion in business.

Jonny: Yeah.

Frank Bach: but yeah, so

Jonny: Yeah, and the, the, the
market doesn't care basically.

The market doesn't care
about your feelings, yeah.

Frank Bach: it doesn't, it doesn't.

And there's a lot of other
places where we can care about

feelings, and that's wonderful.

But

Jonny: Yeah

Frank Bach: just gonna be talking
strictly business, that's the…

I, I think it's, it's…

It shows the sense of maturity, I think,
in a designer who can, you know, who

can kind of be blunt about that stuff

Jonny: quite active
posting jobs, on LinkedIn.

for folks that find themselves in a
non, AI-pilled organization or a non,

you know, unlimited tokens, you go for
it situation or a, a situation where

maybe their manager and their manager's
manager aren't that interested in

this and there's not much guidance.

I, I suppose I'm just interested in
like what, what advice you'd give or

guidance around just, making progress.

As you said before, you
know, if, if DoorDash hadn't

paid for-- Was it DoorDash?

I can't remember.

If DoorDash hadn't paid for
your tokens, you'd have had to

have paid for them yourself.

But,

Frank Bach: Yes.

Yes

Jonny: that's non-obvious maybe
to some people that that might

be-- This might be existential.

So, just yeah, any, any thoughts
for people listening who

might be in that situation?

Frank Bach: Yeah, I think-- I don't
think this is a very, like an…

I think the tools have changed, but I
think the concept of, folks who can find

the time to create like passion side
projects or solve their own problems,

think that is usually a very standout
project in your sort of, you know,

sort of case study portfolio share out.

you know, typical design
interview loops, you'd probably

share two major case studies.

But I, I, I, I would really recommend
folks who are, you know, who are

interested in, in AI tools to make a thing
of their own, solve their own problem.

you know, it could be as simple as
a grocery, you know, grocery list

application or something, or I don't
know, maybe there's, you're, if

you're passionate about music, maybe
you can make, you know, work on some

like recording software or tool or
a, a plugin for, you know, like a

digital guitar amplifier or something.

I don't know.

There's just so many things you can
build so quickly, even if it's imperfect.

and that just shows that you have,
an understanding, a curiosity,

willingness to sort of build.

Your-- You maybe haven't, implemented
the AI process into your, your existing

case studies, but you've shown that you
have, you know, you've got that interest

and that you, you are excited about this
and that, yeah, you will be in whatever

new team or new company you join, you
will be kind of a net positive sort

of AI influencer within the company.

so I, I would, I would, I guess, yeah,
take, sort of take it into your own

hands and don't just wait for your
manager to tell you, how to do things

and that, you know, it might, I don't
know, it-- depending on the job and

the situation, trying to push these
tools internally might, you know,

I know s- some companies maybe are,
are, are pushing back against it.

I'm not sure.

I, I don't hear too much about that
these days, but, there's definitely some

friction, I think, with, you know, w-
within companies of, of how hard, they're

feeling the push to, adopt these tools.

but I think it's natural.

I think it's just, it's happening so
quickly and, you know, when you, when

people feel like they have to learn
something new, they feel, they, they

don't quite understand, that's a really
normal response to have, you know.

Jonny: Yeah.

Yeah.

Frank Bach: Yeah

Jonny: Yeah, so i-i-
there's a bit of fear.

I think there's, there's a
bit of fear going around.

but it also feels like we had sort of,
I don't know, Tom, if you'd agree with

this from, from work we've been doing,
but we had like this time last year, peak

of excitement at the possibility of, of
what AI might, might do for, for us in…

And then, maybe a bit of doomerism, I
don't know, like Claude Design comes out.

This is obviously before you were at
Anthropic maybe, but, but suddenly

it's like, "Oh my God, are we doomed?"

and then it feels like now we're in
this sort of slightly more nuanced

place where we're spotting the places
where, where it works and we're

spotting where it's useless and maybe
where it might always be useless.

or it-- there might always be a role
for us humans, not just as assistants

to, you know, get it some more tokens,
but, to actually p-play a role in,

Frank Bach: Yeah.

Jonny: in design.

Frank Bach: No.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm definitely-- I, I'm
opt- I'm optimistic about that.

I think, I think, of, to the, the
individual choice of how deep do you wanna

go with this, and where do you see it fit?

And, something that really struck me
was, I think there was an article that

came out, and it, it wasn't-- It, it
was, I think, a, a different tool But

it was a bunch of, of, mathematicians
who were quite upset an AI tool was

being used to solve a math problem.

And I thought, "You know, that's really
interesting," 'cause I would've--

I'm definitely not passionate about
math, and I would use I would use

an AI tool to solve a math problem
ev-ev- any day, anytime I could.

but you know, that's me, and I'm,
you know, I, I have, I have that

autonomy and freedom to use the tool
how I sort of see fit that works

for me and what makes me happy.

you know, if I'm creating art or
making music, probably won't use an

AI tool because that's a space that
I've, I've decided, I wanna have,

like, m- my full expression in.

but I'm not gonna judge somebody
who, who uses an AI tool to

sorta amplify their creativity.

that's up to them, you know?

But also it's up, it, it's up to
the audiences and people to react

to that artwork in whatever way they

Jonny: Right

Frank Bach: you know?

And I think art is a touchy place,
for these tools, especially these,

I think there was something around
Spotify and Suno and all these things.

You hear a lot about this.

this is not, not new information.

It's all in the news everywhere.

But, yeah, I think mu- music and art is
a, is a touchy place for, for that stuff,

so it'll be interesting to see w- how
that kind of shakes out in the future.

Tom: So we have, a few
questions we like to ask guests.

short question, short-ish answer, short as

Frank Bach: Cool

Tom: and we'll ans- ask maybe one or
maybe one or two each, depending on

how quickly we are, and then we'll

Frank Bach: Sure.

Tom: after that.

So question one, AGI takes over
everything, what will you do

with all of your free time?

Frank Bach: I'll probably
still make things.

I, I've always loved making, little
magazines and, and flyers for music stuff.

I think I'll, I'll…

It'll just maybe be a different,
slightly different process.

but I'll…

I've always been someone
who liked creating things,

even if it was just for fun.

So even, you know, if money, if money
were no issue, I will still make things.

I mean, even hopefully it all-- If it
does happen, it all happens around the

time I'm ready to retire, and then the,
the outcome will be the same either way.

It doesn't really matter.

Tom: True

Jonny: Still, still, yeah,
20 years away for us maybe.

AGI can hold off just
for a, for a hot second.

Frank Bach: yeah.

Yeah, yeah

Jonny: okay.

Yeah.

question number two, is, what's
a product that you think is

exceptionally well designed?

it can be physical, digital, anything
in the world, something that you, you

think you-- I wish I'd designed that

Frank Bach: Ooh, that's a great question.

man, I feel like this always happens
when I see other designers' portfolio

sites because I've been slacking
on mine for many years, and then

I see their sites and I go, "Damn,
I w- like that's a great idea.

I wish I did that."

I'm just gonna look around
the room real quickly.

don't know if you, if you can see this,
but I've got a, I've got a little…

Can you see this?

I've got a little television here.

Tom: Yes.

Frank Bach: It's an old school--
It's a, it's a little television.

It's an old school Quasar, sort of
like kitchen countertop television.

It's about a five-inch screen.

And I think probably because technology
is moving so quickly, I found myself like

yearning for old technologies and kind
of wanting to tinker around with them.

And yeah, this thing is
a black and white TV.

It has like one channel,
and it has a radio on it.

And I'm, I'm just really enjoying, sort
of the, the balance of like working

in such a high pace technology kind of
environment and then having this like

old retro television that like fi- I'm
just listening to the radio, which is

something I haven't done in many years.

and it, you know, it's old, it sounds
kind of bad, but it also sounds warm

and fuzzy, and it's kind of nice
to just play with the radio dial.

And yeah, I'm just, I'm of maybe
the s- same mindset that drew people

to, drew people back to vinyl,
after the, the era of s- of CDs.

You know, there's just something
about, about the tactile, that,

that kinda makes us feel human.

So yeah, I, I think that little
television is poorly designed,

but kind of perfectly designed.

Jonny: There's something
about the permanence of, of

these things, isn't there?

You know?

Yeah

Frank Bach: Yeah

Tom: So true.

I imagine working at Anthropic or
any of the labs is a, a very intense

Frank Bach: Mm-hmm.

Tom: to be, to be right now.

you have worked at Headspace, which
I think of as, as we discussed

earlier, probably the other extreme
in terms of calm and thoughtfulness,

Frank Bach: Yes

Tom: Do you have any advice for, for
anyone who is, in a very AI centric

environment on how to not feel
overwhelmed, to not feel like the world

is running away, but to, to recenter

Frank Bach: Yeah

Tom: Any, any tips?

Frank Bach: Yeah, I think, I think this
is definitely not an Anthropic only thing.

that I've, I've noticed in other
companies and talking with other folks

who are working in similar spaces
that, we-- nobody has it perfect yet.

You know, nobody knows…

There's no perfect process.

There's no, We're still in the
stage where you can shape the

process and the output and all the
stuff kind of however you see fit.

And there's, yeah, there's no
right or wrong way to do it.

I think just jumping in is
the most important part.

And we have lots of time in the
future to, you know, to, to figure out

what is, what's the perfect scalable
way to work in all of these tools.

So just don't be afraid to mess up.

Messing up is part of it.

Be willing to, you know, we talked about
the impermanence thing of being willing

to throw it all away if it didn't work.

yeah, I w- I would lean into that and,
you know, there's a, there's a, a saying

something around like the, the opposite
of anxiety is excitement or something,

or it's like two sides of the same coin.

And I definitely felt myself go
through that around like AI anxiety

and then AI excitement, and I-
it just sort of flipped one day.

but I think that's just a matter of, of
getting comfortable with, with the tools

and the, you know, just as a designer
leaning into GitHub and understand,

okay, this is how all the parts
connect, you know, behind the scenes.

And you went from like not-- it was
a total black box where you didn't

know any of it, and now you have some
sense of it, and you can actually

speak with engineers with confidence
about what it is you're building.

And I think like that's, yeah,
it's a nat- very natural human

feeling to go through that.

And,

Jonny: Yeah

Frank Bach: but you know, it does,
it kind of, it does, you know,

sort of on- the only way out is
through, so to speak, you know.

Like you gotta get into it and
there's no, You know, we used to

have these, I've never really been
a big believer in like tutorials.

You know, I find them like really
difficult to follow and like it's much

like, you know, you're sort of-- a
tutorial is like sort of practicing the

thing before you need to do the thing.

And so like why would I do that with…

You know, I find that my brain
just doesn't really work that way.

I kinda just need to jump in and do it.

so yeah.

close-- I would say close your 100
tabs you have open that are giving you

anxiety around the things you don't
know, and just try to learn like one

thing today, and you will get there.

Jonny: That is a great bit
of advice to finish on.

I think we should, we should wrap up.

Frank, where do we find you?

just for, you know, for w-
what, LinkedIn, Twitter, what's-

Frank Bach: Yeah, LinkedIn, Twitter,
I think those are both my jams.

yeah, I'm easy to find or you
can just Google, you'll find my

website and all the links are there.

Jonny: Okay.

Frank Bach: but yeah

Jonny: Awesome.

Thank you very much.

And, if you're in LA, quite unlikely
that some of our audience are in LA,

but, but if you happen to be in LA, go
and check out Frank's, Frank's, meetup.

thank you so much.

it's been fantastic to have you on.

Really fascinating.

and, have a good rest of your day

Frank Bach: Thank you guys.

Great to meet you.

Great to chat with you.