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Interface is a podcast where we connect technology and culture through conversation. Interface is brought to you by EMPOWER at PROS. EMPOWER is dedicated to attracting, developing and retaining Black talent at PROS. PROS helps people and companies outperform by enabling smarter selling in the digital economy.
Jennifer: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] I am your host, Jennifer Plummer, and today I'm joined with my co-host, Matthew and Sierra. Um, our guest today is Kelsey Ruger, chief Product and Technology Officer at Hello Alice. I. Uh, Kelsey has a passion for empowering small business to lead the development of a comprehensive toolkit for business growth and financial fitness, empowering over 1 million small businesses across the United States.
Kelsey is a storyteller and loves using stories to make connections that resonate with his audience and drive impact at a global scale. He is dedicated. He is a dedicated advocate for entrepreneurship, co-founding High Drive tv, and [00:02:00] serving as the president of the Houston Interactive Marketing Association.
As a UX and design thinking instructor at the University of Houston, Kelsey shares his ex expertise to inspire the next generation of problem solvers. Recognized as one of the Houston business Journal's 40 under 40 in 2012. Kelsey is driven to make a difference and create a better world. Welcome to Interface podcast.
Kelsey: Thank you. Thanks you all for having me.
Jennifer: So please give us, uh, your background and how you came into technology.
Kelsey: So my background in technology probably starts and I guess technology and design probably starts for me when I was probably eight or nine, and I was always a tinkerer. So when I was little. That manifested itself in, you know, Legos and Tinker toys and Lincoln Blocks. Um, but as I got older [00:03:00] and, um, my family members would, um, introduce me to new technology, right?
And so early on its, you know, early stage technology in, you know, toys and things like that. But my aunt, um, when I was probably. Nine years old got an IBM computer, and I don't know if you guys remember these big honking computers with two floppy disk drives. And so I as a kid had already learned how to use print shop.
I knew how to use all the software installed. I had gotten to the point where I had written little small programs, and one day I decided I wanted to learn everything that was in the computer menu. And so I started at the beginning and I started testing everything. And for those of you who are old school in the audience, you'll know the, the term F disk and what F disk does.
So I got to f disc, re erased her entire hard drive and she didn't know how to [00:04:00] fix it. And so she's calling me at 11 years old saying, you better get over here and fix my computer. And so at 11 years old, I had to figure out how to restore this machine so she could work. And that was sort of the entry of my journey into technology.
I had already started, um, I was in middle school at the time. I'd already started in computer class, really understanding, um, beyond playing games, what you could do with a computer. And I ended up going to, um, Reagan High School, which today is called Hypes High School. Um, and it was a magnet program for computer.
Programming and design. And while I was there I learned a lot of stuff about, you know, programming and creating software. Really early stage. Got my first really early introduction to the internet. Um, but one of the first programs we learned that was on the Mac is this program called Hyper Card. And Hyper Card was one of the first early programs that really used [00:05:00] hyper linking to link things together.
And so at a very early age, I was, I. Learning how to link documents together and really learning, learning what would become the foundation of the internet. And so that's really where my, my story started. Went to college, majored in computer science. Um, and at the time you couldn't really. Get jobs doing design, like what we call UX today that didn't exist, right?
Like if you were a designer back then, it was desktop publishing or working at the newspaper. And so once I got to my first startup, I was able to combine both skill sets and really start to understand how you could create things that uh, people could use that were also. Desire to be used by those people.
And so, uh, from an early age, like I said, I was always a tinker and that was really what sort of my foundation is. I like to figure out how things work and why people do the things that they do. And that's really sort of my driving passion [00:06:00] when it comes to doing anything, whether it's creating products, running a company or a team is, is really sort of all from the same place.
Jennifer: Yeah, I, I love the fact that sometimes when you break things and trying to ha figure out how to fix them is it is the best way to learn a new, you know, a new skill or get a, you know, a strong foundation of understanding how things work.
Kelsey: Yeah. I don't think people appreciate breaking things enough. Like when you break it and you have to fix it, you learn a lot. Um, even if your life is at risk at the moment, you learn a lot about, you How to get things working
Siara: this was a life-threatening situation that you were in? It sounds like.
Matthew: it's the whole, uh, taking apart a remote control and putting it back together.
Kelsey: Yep.
Matthew: I had a question when you first started in technology, you know, you're talking about like IBM and, um, like the, the, the max [00:07:00] and like the, the, the simple programs.
And then you kind of fast forward to now and anytime I, I like, hear developers talk, there's all these random things that you can do. Do you think it's. Was easier to get into technology and then grow starting in the very beginning, or do you think it, like how do you think that approach has evolved until now?
Like if someone wants to get in technology, do you think that mountain's harder to approach?
Kelsey: I think it is easier now, it's just faster paced. Like back then if you were getting into technology, you really had to know where to go and look for it. So for example, like as a kid today, if you wanna learn a programming language, it's all over the place. When I was 13 years old, if I wanted to learn how to do.
C Sharp. Not only did I have to have, this is another thing kids today don't understand. I had to have the 30 disk that it took to install c plus plus or whatever it was on the computer. You had to find that. [00:08:00] Then you had to know, I have a book or teacher or someone who could mentor you. Today, the resources are so widely available, like if you really want to get into it, it's, it's really a function of where do you learn who's gonna mentor you?
And what types of projects you want to do to reinforce the things that you're learning. Um, but it is definitely easier now it's just so fast paced because things change so fast. Now you have really have to keep your, your eye on what's changing and how that's gonna impact what you're doing as a career path.
Jennifer: Now you're a chief product officer, product and technology officer, what, what was that transition like and what do you, what does that person, you know, what does, what does that mean? What do you do?
Kelsey: So in, in our world, typically technology and products sit. In two different worlds. Um, one of the things that, and I think we ran into the same thing here at [00:09:00] Alice, and I think you're seeing it in other companies where there is so much overlap between your chief product and your chief technology officer.
If you have someone who understands both worlds, you can, one, it makes it easier to manage the two teams of, of, of, of people. But you also get some synergy in that you have one person who can kind of guide. Both the product vision and the vision of how you get there. Um, and then when you bundle in the design part, it makes it a lot easier to manage.
And I think with my background, uh, um, coming from an engineering background, um, formal education and always having been trained in design, it sort of was a natural evolution. So as you move up through the organization and you become more responsible for not just how do you build the things, but what are we gonna do?
What are we gonna, how do we do it and why do we want to do it? That's sort of that natural evolution where at least for me, it [00:10:00] was a natural evolution to move into not just product, but also a role where I could oversee both things. And I think because of the nature of the companies that I've worked with, I had the opportunity to sort of reinforce those skills over time, managing different teams, um, of people.
And I think the, the other thing that people sort of miss that I think is sort of foundational for you to be a successful manager is it is not just about the skills, like the talent is one thing. You, you really have to invest in learning how to manage people and what it takes to lead people. Because at the end of the day, as a, as a manager, you can only do so much, right?
You're highly dependent on your team. To execute and to deliver those results. And if you're not good at communicating with them or setting expectations, you just make your job harder, right? 'cause you've gotta spend more time, um, following up on those types of things.
Matthew: Follow up on that. What's the cognitive load [00:11:00] like? You know, you have all these, uh, you know, organizations and teams flowing up to you. It's not, it's technology product design, it sounds like. I, I can't imagine, like I, I'm responsible for one product, but I couldn't imagine what it's like for multiple products.
And then on top of that, the technology. Can you, can you maybe speak to that? I.
Kelsey: So there's a couple of things and, and one of the secrets is you gotta hire the right people. Uh, I can't emphasize that enough. You have to hire the right people and then you have to do what all managers say they're gonna do. But so many struggle with doing is let people do what they're good at. And if you let people do what they're good at, it actually reduces the cognitive load because I don't have to remember everything the engineers are doing because the VP of engineering will do that.
I don't have to remember, although I usually remember everything, every product manager on our team is working on. I don't have to Right. Like the, the director of product can do that. [00:12:00] But I think that, um, there's a, a, a lesson I learned from a book that Jack Welsh wrote, and it's like you have to be as the leader of an organization, very intimately aware of the day-to-Day operations.
You might not run it, but you have to be aware of what's going on. So even if you're not deep in the weeds on a particular product, you need to understand what that product manager's challenges are. So if things bubble up to you, you're not. You know, completely unaware of what's happening in your organization.
Siara: Was that a hard thing for you to, to sort of learn is hire the right people and let them do what they're good at? Or was that sort of always at the forefront of your mind as you was, as you were growing into lead This leader? I.
Kelsey: you have to learn it, but you also learn from looking at bad examples too. Like if you, if you've ever worked for a bad boss, you know, like don't do these 10 things and you know why you don't do those [00:13:00] two 10 things. I think what's been really helpful for me is putting myself in situations where I can maintain a level of self-awareness as I moved up through the organization because that's, it is easy as you move up and move in more senior positions to become, not aware of how you're coming across the people.
Or not aware of the, the things that you think are great, but everyone else is like, why the heck did he say that? That doesn't make any sense. And so I think you have to be invested in building your leadership skills as you move up through the organization. Otherwise it's just not gonna happen. And I've been fortunate, um, to be in situations where I had good mentors or the company supported that type of development.
Um, because it's key, right? Like as a leader, you're not writing code, you're trying to make it easy for people to do their job.
Jennifer: So when you have a vision of a direction you want, um, the product to go or the [00:14:00] technology to go, how do you propagate that idea throughout the organization?
Kelsey: I typically start with making sure the vision is clear. So if, for example, I want to do a new feature around ai, I'm not gonna just go and say, we need this feature. I need to plug it into what our vision is. Like, what is our vision as a company, how this fits with. What we said are the particular OKRs we're working on in that particular timeframe, and then make sure that the expectations are clear.
Sometimes I will sketch out things or I'll give them an idea, especially if it's something's really new that we haven't talked about before. What I do try to avoid is giving them the solution because, uh, that's why you hire people, right? Like you don't. Hire people as an executive to dictate to them, go build this thing that I thought of.
One, because I don't [00:15:00] know if my idea is right, like if I come up with a solution, my idea could be very wrong because I haven't validated it yet. And so typically my approach is make sure they understand the vision, set clear expectations. Get them to make sure they have, they understand the expectations and then let them go because that's how you get the best results from your team, especially if you've done what I said earlier.
Done a good job hiring. If you haven't done a good job hiring, you probably will have to do more hand-holding, but it should be become really clear really early on if you've done that.
Siara: That's a very interesting takeaway is give them the vision but not the solution. This is where I think we should go, and then you let them kind of go forth and see if they can make the vision real and make
Kelsey: And I think, yeah, I think as you, it is a tough, I think a lot of managers who were producers like you were a designer, or you were an [00:16:00] engineer, or you were a writer, any of the roles that produced things. It is a hard transition for them to understand that as a manager, your job is no longer to produce the thing it is to facilitate the other people producing the thing.
And that transition is so hard for so many managers. I think they end up frustrating a lot of employees who are really good at their job. Like, I can't write code. Today, like the engineers we have, there's no way possible I can, they know more about it. They're in it day to day. For me to try to tell them how to do their job doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
So it's, I think there's much more value in a leader being able to set clear vision and direction and then providing the tools and resources that people need to go and, and execute on that.
Jennifer: What advice would you give, um, people considering a career in design or um, engineering today?
Kelsey: Interestingly, [00:17:00] uh, I mean aside, I have this saying like, the talent wall only gets you so far, right? Like everyone knows everyone's gonna be able to write code and everyone's gonna be able to get in Figma and do stuff. I think your ability to. Understand the world around you. Like see and observe how people are actually doing things, ask the right questions is a much more powerful, um, tool set.
And so I think the advice I would give them if I were. Making that concrete as BT-shaped or be an expert generalist. Like you're gonna have a, an area where you're an expert, right? Like it could be writing code, it could be a designer, but if you've got some ancillary skills like psychology and understanding why people buy and understanding cognitive bias, then you're going be a lot further than the person who only has the skill because you'll understand how to apply the skill.
Which is a, ultimately when you're in the business [00:18:00] world, that's really what you want. Like, you don't wanna just be a great designer, you want to be a designer who creates solutions that people want to buy. And so, uh, that would be my advice is learn the sort of adjacent fields, 'cause it'll make you stronger in your core skill set.
Matthew: Do you have a process for branching out? You know, I can, I see that a lot of people are always focused on what's in front of them, their day to day, the fire that they put out. How do you find time, you know, throughout your career even now, to find those adjacent skills and branch out, and then maybe practice them.
Kelsey: So there's a, a, a concept I heard from one of my mentors. He calls it net time or no extra time. And so he. Recommended. He's like, Hey, you're, if you're in the car, listen to an audio book. If instead of watching five hours of TV at night, watch three and read a book and make sure your books are, um, [00:19:00] cross-discipline.
Like don't only read in your discipline. Read outside of your discipline, because a lot of times when you are trying to synthesize innovations, it takes you pulling from different areas. So for example, if you've read about how Michelangelo mixed his paint when he was painting. Something or you learned how he did a sculpture and you can pull that information in, you don't know where it's gonna combine with something else and come with something new.
And so I think reading across different, um, areas and also having friends and acquaintances that work in different fields. Like if everyone you know is an engineer, you're only gonna think like an engineer. But if you have friends who are lawyers, friends who are nurses, friends who are. Um, anthropologists, you're going to be able to, to have different types of conversations.
And so I think that's where it starts. [00:20:00] Another practice that I use, um, and I wish I, I thought about this. If I knew you were gonna ask that question, I've brought it in, but I have this thing I call a commonplace book. And so my commonplace book is probably, 15 to 20 years. Of notes that I've pulled from different topics that I've put together, and every time I add to it, I go back and I read to those notes.
And so over time it's allowed me to become more familiar with different areas. So if you ask me for example, like why do I think entertainment is going a certain direction, I actually could probably pull some things together that lead me to in that direction. Um, and so again, I think it's all about being curious.
And wanting to learn from different areas. That's gonna really help you strengthen any core skill set.
Jennifer: yeah. So you mentioned about hiring the right people, and you kind of just talked about also kind of the breadth of the T here. Um, when you're building your teams, are you also kind of looking to [00:21:00] diversify the backgrounds of, you know, maybe they're all software engineers, but this one came from. You know, uh, you know, has a background at a, at a major, you know, big corporation, but another person, you know, maybe had a less prestigious background or something like that.
Kelsey: Um, I, I sort of go through several phases. When we interview, we interview for skill set first, right? Like, you gotta have, you, you don't get in the door if you can't do the thing. Then we're looking cultural fit. Then we're looking at sort of the intangibles. Like, did this person, um. Uh, have experience doing some other career path, um, before they got to Hello Alice.
So for example, we have engineers on our team that are musicians. We have engineers that are artists. We had an engineer once that was so good on the piano, like he could have made the choice to be a professional concert pianist. Like that's how good he was. And so that [00:22:00] mindset, um. Helped him see things differently.
I know it's gonna directly affect the way he wrote code, but it definitely helped him see things differently. And I think that's important is, um, it's the same reason why people tell you when you're in school, don't just study, right? Like, go join clubs and go have other activities, not just so to pad your, your resume for college, but those things help you become more well-rounded.
Matthew: Let, let me just. Shamelessly plug the podcast. Um, that's exactly what this is happening right now. Every time we talk to people, I, I'm just getting so much good information from listening to you, but every time we talk to people, we're doing that same thing. And I think, you know, I. The, the, this podcast is that extracurricular, but we're, we're getting engaged, we're learning and we're, I know that I've brought some of the things that I've learned from the various, not not just the podcast, but our guests into my day job.
I'm sure Jenny and Sierra have done the same thing. [00:23:00] So yeah, shout out to our pros for their ability to have employee resource groups that give us, um, the opportunity to go out and, you know, explore what we wanna explore and develop the skills, how we want to develop them.
Kelsey: That is awesome.
Jennifer: What programs do you think companies should implement to increase black talent in technology? I.
Kelsey: Um, well this is a topic that we've talked about a lot at fellow Alice over the last probably six months, just because of the nature of what we do and, and some things that we've been involved in. And so I would say in instead of companies looking at DEI as a. Thing that is unfair to certain groups.
Here's the way I always tell people. If I, if the world was on a hill, right? Like, and I always sat at the bottom of this hill, and so anytime resources poured in, I would always automatically get a lot of them because everything's [00:24:00] gonna roll downhill. To me. The fact that we go back and even that hill is not unfair.
What it is, is it's saying. That the people who were not able to participate in inequality want to participate in it, not necessarily take anything away from anyone else. And I think truly understanding what, what the, the goal is, is a first step that companies should take, right? Like it is not about, um, giving things to someone who is not qualified.
It's about making sure that you have a bigger pool of qualified people. To choose from, um, when you're making these decisions. And so, um, uh, one program I think that would be useful for companies is just to do more things where you, you, I don't wanna say forced, but you, you, you, and you encourage, um, things to be more diverse.
So it could be as simple as having more programs where you learn about people's culture. [00:25:00] Having more programs, we do learn about how different people accomplish different goals. And this is something I learned in college in sociology because when you go through sociology and you're American, right, or you're from the western world, when you see certain things that people who are not in the Western world, do you think, oh my God, why do they do that?
Well, because in their culture that is a thing that they do. Right? And I think. It's not to run everything through your lens. It's to learn that there are different lenses and how how those different lenses have adapted to the world will make you, uh, a much more well-rounded person. I think the same thing works for companies.
Siara: I have an interesting question to ask you, and I may fumble the words, so just bear with me. So. I'm, I'm loving this conversation and I'm interested in, as a black senior leader and the way that you approach [00:26:00] diversity and inclusion or even the way you lead, have you worked with people who have thought similarly?
Like, have you, um. Almost like seek out organizations who sort of align with the way you think, which I think most people would be like, yes, I wanna make sure that I work for someone, you know, a company that aligns with my core values. Or have you ever run into, um, friction where you have other senior leaders, basically your peers, who you kind of have to not necessarily convince them to come to, to your side of the table, but.
To sort of kind of change the way they approach these types of topics or even their style of leadership.
Kelsey: I, I think that honestly, if you look at anything we do, and I, I'm gonna say America for sure, America is a capitalistic country, right? And so nearly everything that we decide [00:27:00] from a business perspective is driven by that underlying principle. Like we're capitalism. I mean, we all benefit from that too, but.
I think most of the time when you work with people, it's not necessarily that they're not wanting to do things. It is, there's that bottom line of the dollar that they're looking at. And so I think when you understand that it's much easier to craft a message to move people to your way of thinking if you know it's, that is actually what is driving them.
And, and from a business perspective there, there may be other biases that. Come into play. But from an American business standpoint, that is actually what's driving most of the decisions. It's not whether or not, um, they want to be equitable or not. It's is, is that gonna cost me a dollar or is it gonna earn me a dollar?
Is really sort of the, unfortunately, the way I think that filter starts and sort of understanding it that way. And I learned that really [00:28:00] early on in my career. I had one manager who. He took the time to explain to me how to sell things, and he really underlines this thing of people don't buy things because of logic.
They buy things because of emotion, and then they apply logic to justify the decision that they've made. And if you understand that, that principle is a whole lot easier to move people to your way of thinking than if you think everyone's being logical, which we all know they're not. Right.
Siara: Absolutely. I, I know from my perspective in my career, being a black woman, obviously I always show up to the table with that sort of lens, and sometimes it can feel like a burden to sometimes be the one of few or the only at the table to kind of be forced to think through that lens and bring people to say, okay, have you thought about this perspective?
A, as a black man, you know, navigating through corporate, [00:29:00] have you ever felt it was sort of a, a burden to kind of carry, or do you just kind of take it and say, this is sort of, I've accepted that this is gonna be my role in certain situations, and you just kind of roll with the punches?
Kelsey: I, I kind of have accepted that that's gonna happen, but more recently I've started to become more of the mindset that if you are the, the minority, it is not always your job to teach other people. How to do certain things. Like at some point you gotta expect people to see it for themselves. And so that burden is always there, but I, in the back of my mind, I'm always like, it is not my job to teach you how to think about all of these things completely.
Um, and so I'll work with people on like what I see. Um, from my perspective, and this is what, what this isn't, uh, you know, part of the question you just asked, but this is one of the fundamental reasons why when I hear people say I'm [00:30:00] colorblind, it irks me because you can't appreciate that. Let's take that out of it.
But you can't appreciate anything if you don't acknowledge the thing. Right. And so, um, again, I think all of that plays into like. This burden of do I always have to, you know, lead them down the
Siara: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Siara: All right. So, um, thank you so much Kelsey for the conversation. Um, it's been a pleasure. Um, now it is time for us to move into the heat check. I really liked my air horns last time, so we're gonna do that again.
Kelsey: Oh, you know, I have that on my sound board, but I don't know if it'll come through.
Jennifer: So sound board is
Kelsey: thing it's on, but I have that.
Jennifer: to get is to have these cues. So soundboard is the next evolution of where we need to get is have these cues.
Siara: Our budget.
Jennifer: YeaH.
Siara: Um, so the heat check [00:31:00] is a segment where the interface co-hosts will share an interesting or hot topic in the world of tech or black culture. Um, and as our guest Kelsey, feel free to chime in on any of these topics if you have a perspective. Um, I'm gonna pick on Maddie to go first this time.
Matthew: Okay. Um. You probably can guess what my topic is. Um, this might be a little bit outdated by the time people listen to this, but mine's all about, um, the Taylor Swift, Chiefs Super Bowl conspiracies. Have you heard about these? Has anyone heard any of them?
Jennifer: No.
Siara: It on.
Matthew: The chiefs pay their rents. The NFL's scripted, Taylor Swift is a CIA plant.
Um, and everything is like, yeah, it's being pushed. Basically there's all these narratives that the Chiefs and Taylor Swift are in cahoots to, um, just kind of just like [00:32:00] push a, push a narrative and like, something about Covid is, there's all these random things. Kelsey, what, which ones have you heard?
Kelsey: I've heard, I, I've heard all of those sort of ridiculous storylines. And here's, here's what I always say. Have you guys ever heard of Occam's Razor? You know, the simplest solution is usually the right answer. It's sort of, if you watch the movie, um, um, what's the movie with Jodie? The contact with Jodie Foster and she's, um, uh, a research scientist.
It's sort of the core of that movie, and when I say the simplest solution is usually the right one, and the simplest solution here is Taylor Swift is just a lady who happens to be mega wealthy and she's going to the games to see her boy. I don't think because the, the, the type of coordination and, um, acceptance among the rest of the league.
Like, you gotta think, what about the people who are not in the [00:33:00] Super Bowl? They have to agree to keep this a secret. And why would they, like, none of it makes sense. Like the cons, like the conspiracy theories that people come up with just is crazy. Like, how did they believe it too?
Matthew: Yeah, it's, it's, it's great. So my heat check is from Reuters of pretty much chiefs. Coach has been used by Super Bowl conspiracy theories. I just wanted to give a PSA to everyone out that, um. It's, it's not scripted. We do pay our refs. We pay them an a good amount of money, but chiefs have the best quarterback in the league right now.
We have the best team. I hope, I hope we win and I hope this ages well. But go Chiefs. Uh, we're in the Super Bowl.
Kelsey: I dunno if you guys have the best quarterback, but I'll let you have that this weekend.
Jennifer: I, I wish our listeners could see, um, Maddie set up with, um, he, he's all chiefs all over the place. Red and gold. Yeah. Yeah, [00:34:00] yeah. Um, yeah, I mean, and just for the fact that it's not like this is the first year you guys have been successful, so it'd be one thing, and maybe for you guys coming out the blue out of nowhere and winning all of a sudden, but you, you know, you, you, you've been around the block a few times and I think we know that you're, the Kansas has a good team.
Kansas City has a good team, I should say.
Matthew: Space outta Missouri just for
Jennifer: Based outta misery. Yeah. Not confusing at all.
Siara: Thanks, Maddie. All right, Jenny, you wanna do yours next or you want me to go.
Jennifer: I can go. Um, so I read an article titled Inventing the Perfect College Applicant for $120,000 a year. Christopher Rimm promises to turn any student into IBB. Um, so I picked this just because right. There's been [00:35:00] a, um, a push against, um, um, supporting minority and, and financially people that don't have the financial means to get the school right.
Um, those programs are not as available as they used to be. Um, and I just think it's, and I think it's been a. It's, it's been something that's known that the more money you have or the, um, the longer that you're, you're, you've been wealthy or successful, it's more the better chance that your kids will also get into good schools.
Um, but basically there is a company called Command Education and it's basically, uh, a mentorship set up where, um. They're going to work with, uh, high school students, maybe even as early as junior high. Um, basically, um, editing that, their extracurricular activities, um, helping them with their [00:36:00] applications, um, making sure, um, you know, preparing them for interviews and their applications.
Um, and it's. You know, costs a lot of money to, um, be able to hire these kind of services, which are called independent education consultants. Um, and this is not disclosed on a college application. Um, so obviously if you have the means to. Higher people like this, then you're, uh, more likely to get into a good school.
Um, they're saying nine, this one company is saying ninety-four percent of the people that hire their services get into one of their top three schools. Uh, so I just wanted to get everybody's thoughts on, is this fair? Is this something that should be encouraged? Um. I have my thoughts, but I wanted to hear from you guys.
Kelsey: and it cost [00:37:00] $20,000 to do this. Is that what
Jennifer: That's what the title says. Um, the, so I did go to the website. I didn't see anything listed on the website as far as what the base cost is. Um, but they do have a higher level of mentor where this, they could call this mentor Anytime of the day, the, they will text the students and say, did you turn in your math homework?
You know, that kind of one-on-one, um, um, um, support. Um, and I think the mentors get, uh, rewarded. Um, they get a bonus if, if their student gets into the school that they wanna get into. So I think the level of pay is kind of like how much, you know, how much hand holding are they giving to the students.
Matthew: So the idea is that these wealthy students are paying a consultancy service to help them craft their resume to then be able to get into. pr more prestigious colleges.
Jennifer: Yes, [00:38:00] yes.
Matthew: Yeah, I think my approach to that is sounds like a great opportunity for someone to take. Chat. GPT's, API and break down a bunch of prompts to then, you know, you just upload your resume and all the things that you're working on in school, and then it will populate that and then maybe you have a, you know, a chat bot assistant to help you with your grades or something.
You know, you can go on YouTube and get all of that information. Just like Kelsey said is like, do you really need to spend a hundred thousand dollars to get someone to handhold you? Into getting into college, or can you find those resources? I, I'm pretty much biased against, uh, education, just my background and what I, what my observations.
So, um, yeah, I think I understand that, you know, if you have this, you're more likely to get into prestigious schools, but I think it's, it's, it's probably more of, uh, the fact that you have money. I think it's less of the consultancy service.
Siara: I mean it, it's. [00:39:00] Not the same, but same lane as the, I'm gonna, these celebrities buying their kids way into these schools. I mean, to me it's the exact, not the exact same thing again, but same thing. Can these students not do it on their own merit? It's kind of crazy to me. And I mean, again. While the playing field may never be level in the United States, having money will always give you some type of advantage, you know, to cut corners or find a back door or, or something to get ahead.
Kelsey: Yeah, and I'm
Siara: baby.
Kelsey: yeah, I'm not in the, I'm not in your camp like against education, but I am in the camp now of. I think we've entered a time where educational institutions need to prove their worth, right? Like, I'm gonna pay [00:40:00] $120,000 on top of the $200,000 I have to pay the school. And so you gotta think about when that kid comes outta school.
And I actually have made this argument to people who are asking me, should they go get an MBA? And I'm like, will you ever earn that money back? And I make the same argument with any investment you make toward school. And so my question for these consultants wouldn't be, can you get me into the school?
It's, will I be able to get a job after I've paid all of this money? And is the job going to be worthwhile to help me pay all this money back, um, after I'm done? And I think, you know, if you look at where we are as a country, we shouldn't be worried about. Whether or not, um, student A or B got into the school, we should be worried about are we gonna be competitive as a nation and are we letting enough people be prepared for us to remain competitive?
And if we [00:41:00] are not, then none of that sort of, sort of DEI debate matters, right? Because we won't have enough people to be competitive, like when other countries are training everybody for free.
Matthew: Yeah, definitely wanted to clarify. I'm, I'm with you on that. It, it's not education generally, it's the educational institutes. I think what I would like to see in the future is these schools teaching people how to work with other people. You know, how to learn things, new things because everything's cool is constantly changing that that.
You know, that rate is ever increasing. And then how to be creative and think outside the box. And pretty much circling back to what you said, how do you connect those dots, those various threads into something that you wanna solve, how to problem solve? So I think these prestigious schools, you're essentially just buying you.
A brand, you're buying a the same T-shirt, but this one says Nike on it, and now it's a little bit more expensive. Um, when I go to a place and I say, Hey, I have Harvard on my resume, that just, you know, [00:42:00] that's what you're buying. Is someone saying, oh, this person went to Harvard. They must be smart. This is how I must think of them.
When in fact, I think what you said is we should be measuring our schools based on the what. Their output. How effective are the the students coming out of their schools? That should be how we are rating these
Kelsey: Mm-Hmm.
Siara: 1000% agree.
Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. I wanna circle back on to, I, I wanna play a little devil's act on something that Maddie said about just putting this into chat GPT and directing your child the way you know on your own, which obviously is always an option. Um, as a parent of, this is the second kid, I'm, you know, I'm trying to get to go to school.
And any conversation you have with your teenager could be. Difficult at times. And so the idea of having, so sometimes I can say something, but then someone else says something to, to my child and they'll receive it and [00:43:00] listen and kind of take that in. Um, with a lot less friction. Um, so I could see like if I could afford something like that, it's kind of like, oh, I, I might do that.
Just so, um, I have less, um, points of conflict with my kid. For example, when he went to driver's ed. I paid someone else to teach 'em to drive because it was definitely gonna be less confrontational, um, to get through that situation. And so, um, you know, if I could afford something that's a lot of money, um, I would do that just because teenagers are hard to talk to.
Kelsey: That is true.
Jennifer: I don't know. Sierra, you've got a, I don't, Kelsey, I don't know if you have kids. Sierra.
Kelsey: have three.
Jennifer: a, a son. Yeah. That's. Not quite in high school yet. Right. But,
Siara: he is in high school. I'm, I'm approaching the driver's ed swiftly. I don't know how that's gonna turn out, but Absolutely. I'm, I will try on my own first and if that doesn't, I will [00:44:00] be hiring someone to.
Kelsey: I would.
Jennifer: mm-hmm. It's just,
Siara: We will see. Stay tuned
Jennifer: yeah. Pick your battles and that's, yeah, that's not one. You'll have plenty of time to fight over the, the cars and stuff. Cool. What do you have for
Siara: I'm gonna. I'm gonna wrap us up today, and if anyone out there, I'm gonna take you back a little bit. I'm sure we all had to do a black history, um, report or read out or something at, at some point in our college career. I know I had to do several, so I'm gonna take us back to that. Um, so in honor of Black History Month and um, it's Super Bowl weekend coming, um, I actually found an article that highlights.
Doug Williams, he is the first black quarterback to play in and win a Superball game. Um, so this article basically highlights the four things you should know about Mr. Doug Williams. Um, so it says
Jennifer: Did [00:45:00] he play for the Washington football team?
Siara: that again.
Kelsey: Mm-Hmm.
Jennifer: Yeah, pat myself on the back there.
Kelsey: And I am trying to remember, didn't he go to Grambling? What? What
Siara: he is a, he is a native of Louisiana, um, and he played quarterback for Gremlin State University. Coached under, um, Eddie Robinson. He earned his bachelor's degree in health and physical education. Um, he made history as the first black quarterback, first to be drafted at. As a first round pick, he was selected 17th overall by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and he led them to three playoff games in his tenure.
Then he made history again in 19 eighty-seven as the first black quarter black to start in and win a Super Bowl game after being recruited by the Washington Redskins. Now the Washington Commanders. Um, so shout out to Mr. Doug Williams and as the title of this blog site, because of you, we can. Very cool.
[00:46:00] Fun fact.
Jennifer: I love it.
Siara: Cool.
Jennifer: That was back in the eighties too, so it's Which,
Siara: it's not as long ago
as we think.
It's
Jennifer: It was long ago for the Washington football team. Was the last time they won. I'm sorry. All my friends from the DB.
Siara: All right. So we want to thank you again, Kelsey for joining, um, the Interface crew today.
Tell our listeners where they can find you out on the interwebs.
Kelsey: Um, the best place to find me is probably on LinkedIn. Uh, I will usually respond to messages there. Uh, within a couple of days if it's not immediate. I'm also on Instagram a lot, so if you want to DM me there, um, but I'm pretty much on every platform, so, um, be on the lookout for me on social media. Feel free to connect with me on LinkedIn if you have questions.
So on [00:47:00] LinkedIn, I am Kelsey Ruger, and on Instagram I'm at Kelsey Ruger. So pretty easy to find me there.