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Business is an unlikely hero: a force for good working to solve society's most pressing challenges, while boosting bottom line. This is social purpose at work. And it's a dynamic journey. Purpose 360 is a masterclass in unlocking the power of social purpose to ignite business and social impact. Host Carol Cone brings decades of social impact expertise and a 360-degree view of integrating social purpose into an organization into unfiltered conversations that illuminate today's big challenges and bigger ideas.
Carol Cone:
I'm Carol Cone, and welcome to Purpose 360, the podcast that unlocks the power of purpose to ignite business and social impact. I'm so excited about today's conversation with one of the world's foremost experts in the field of diversity, equity, and inclusion, Margaret Spence. Margaret is a trailblazer, an entrepreneur, an author, even a rabble-rouser at times, who has dedicated her career to transforming the way employers value diverse talent. She has become one of the world's foremost thought leaders and consultants by making significant contributions to reimagining inclusion and igniting equity within organizations. She's president and CEO of C. Douglas & Associates. She's founder and CEO of the Inclusion Learning Lab, and she's the visionary behind the Employee to CEO Project. And through her companies, she engages leaders in a thought-provoking dialogue about DE&I, and she asks this foremost question to companies, is this merely an HR goal or is it a strategic imperative for growth, innovation, and career development?
Through her DE&I lens, she challenges organizations to go beyond rhetoric and embrace a multi-layered approach that shapes action rather than mere conversation. In addition to her extensive work, she hosts a wickedly great podcast called Inclusion Unscripted that dives deep into the heart of all things related to DE&I, and through this podcast, she's been described as fearless, unapologetic, unfiltered, intrepid, passionate, and extremely eloquent.
So join me as we share Margaret's insights into the real journey of DE&I, a journey that goes beyond rhetoric, beyond pledges and dives into the heart of actionable change. Welcome to the show, Margaret Spence.
Margaret Spence:
Thank you so much for inviting me today, Carol. It's a pleasure to be here on Purpose 360.
Carol Cone:
Thank you. Thank you so much. So why don't we just get started a bit and tell us about your amazing background, how we got to where you are today, because you are an extraordinary influencer.
Margaret Spence:
Thank you. Today is oftentimes people see the end journey and they never really see the beginning, so I started in the insurance industry in the early 1980s. I worked my way through, I became a VP, and then I became a single mom, and then I navigated back to the claims department and I became a claims adjuster. I was handling workers' comp claims. And in that process, I realized at the time that when you feel like you're the sharpest knife in the room and the room around you is not that sharp, right?
You're trying to advance and move up and you're struggling to move up inside of your career and you're applying for jobs and you're being told you're not ready for the job, you're not dynamic enough for the job, but you know in your own self, and I knew at that point that I could do more and should do more. And in 1997 my mother passed away, and in that moment I realized that life is too short to sit in something that you are not happy with, and I made the decision that day that I was done. I was done with corporate. I needed to find a new road. I applied for a risk manager role, and one of the pivotal moments in my career, I had a boss say to me, and I'll never forget it because I say this story all the time, I had a boss say to me, "You have no potential."
Carol Cone:
What?
Margaret Spence:
Yep. She said, "You have no potential. Be happy. Be a workers' comp adjuster. That's what you're good at. I don't see you past that desk. Go be happy in that role."
Carol Cone:
Go be happy in that role. Oh, that's outrageous.
Margaret Spence:
My mother had always said to me, "Don't let anybody control your future." My mother had said to me, "Where you start out is not where you end up." My mother had absolutely said to me, "You have the potential to be anything you want to be. It's up to you." And in her death, I realized that all of what she had said to me was true. I could do it. I resigned my job.
Carol Cone:
And so how did you feel at that time when all of a sudden you were going to go out on your own? You had two boys. It's scary. I mean, I've been there a couple times and it's very scary.
Margaret Spence:
It's scary, but I made two bold decisions. Number one, I cashed in my 401k because I decided in that moment I was thirty-two years old, I think at 30 something, and I wasn't getting ready to retire anytime soon, so I cashed it in and I invested that in myself.
The second thing I did was I went into my, then what you would call Rolodex back in the nineties. I started calling people who I felt could help me. I told them, "I'm starting next week. I need a client. What can you do to help me? How can you help me?" And there was this amazing gentleman, his name is Tony Abella. He is with Arthur J. Gallagher in Miami. And I called him and I said, "Tony, I'm going out on my own. I need a client." And he said, "I'll dial some people and I'll get you your first five clients," and he did. And in that moment I said, "That's it. I'm going out the door. I'm not looking back." And here I am.
Carol Cone:
So let's talk about your personal purpose. I mean, I know you love the insurance industry, but from what I see and read in your incredible website, you do a lot more than that, so what is your personal purpose?
Margaret Spence:
So what drives me every day is to make an impact to any person that I encounter. I want to make sure that I hear that individual, that I give them the time they need, whether it's five minutes or 10 minutes, that I impart upon them the guidance they need to take their steps. One of the missions that I've had is to make sure that people who come into my circle at any point leave better. My mission is to help people understand that you do not have to remain stuck in any spot that you're in, and I freely give of myself in that mission. Right? I'll give you an example. I was in Jamaica on Wednesday and Thursday last week. I went down to my aunt's funeral and-
Carol Cone:
Oh. I'm sorry to hear of your loss.
Margaret Spence:
Yeah, thank you. And I was sitting in the lobby and a gentleman sat across from the bar that I was sitting at and we were having breakfast. Young gentleman, and he said to me, I'm working for PricewaterhouseCoopers down in the Caribbean and I'm getting ready to leave to become a professor, and he was talking to me about energy sustainability and how climate change is real and energy sustainability and how that's affecting the Caribbean Basin and that he felt he could make a better impact in academia. And in that moment, I said to him, "You have the ability to start a revolution inside of that classroom, but it's only going to happen if you humanize what you're trying to tell people." That is the core of my mission, just give you that one thing.
Carol Cone:
That's beautiful. You talk a lot in terms of destroying the myth that black women cannot be powerful and effective leaders, and I want to make sure our listeners understand you are, if not the primary voice in DE&I today, you are probably one of the top three. So you talk a lot in terms of your inclusion lab about really focusing on women, so can we talk about, because that sounds like it's a subset of your purpose, and then we're going to dive into what is DE&I today and then what are the big challenges?
Margaret Spence:
Yeah. So in 2008, I wrote a book called Leadership Self-Transformation: The 52 Career-Defining Questions Every High Achieving Woman Must Answer, and I wrote the book over a summer and I hand wrote the book initially and then eventually published it. And in that journey, what I realized is that for women of color, we are often placeholders in organizations. They will hire us and put us in a spot, and that spot is to be visible. Once we're in that spot and they could say, "Oh, I have a black woman over there," or, "I have an Asian woman over there," or, "I have a Hispanic woman over there." Or Native American woman if we even get to that level, right? Once you make that decision that you put this woman of color in place, oftentimes that's it. The organization is only interested in the window dressing of having a black woman or a woman of color in a role, and then we either parade that woman out when it's convenient, but we do not give that woman the lens of, how do I move through the system?
Here's a key part, Carol, and here's what we don't look at. In every organization, there are two sides of the room. There is the profit center and the cost center. Okay? In the profit center, if I get ready to be terminated, you have to dial up accounting and say, "I want to get rid of Margaret tomorrow morning," and accounting will say, "This is a check you need to write to Margaret." If you're on the cost center side of the house, you're an expense item. You could easily be erased. Most black women and most women in general are on the cost center side of the organization and the men are on the profit center side of the organization, and the universe that is business is so comfortable having us in the cost center side of the house because they do not get to share the pie with us. They don't get to give us the full trappings. And we as women, especially black women, we get caught up in the job title, in the outer trappings of success, and we forget until they're ready to terminate us that we really have nothing to stand off.
Carol Cone:
I want to dive right into how do you define DE&I, and then I want to talk about the CEO pledges post George Floyd, which I think you said we're like 82% pledge to do something, but their pledge is not action.
Margaret Spence:
In 2023 and going into 2024, I feel that we should define DE&I on one word. Equity. Equity. That's the word we need to define DEI on. We are so caught up in let's do diversity, let's do inclusion, let's do equality, let's do equity, let's do belonging, let's do thriving. All these words that we put together into the mix. But the word that we never talk about is equity. Is the workplace equitable for everyone? Every single person must feel equitable in the workforce. You cannot have a workforce where part of the workforce is living in equity and the rest of the workforce is not. That's it. Diversity means that we bring every single person to the table, including the white men who suddenly have decided that diversity is against them, even though they have controlled the table, the stadium, the bleachers, the concession stand, the ground the thing is built on. Right?
We have to say in a diverse environment, it's multi-generational. It is multiethnic. It is multicultural. It is multi-dynamic. Right? It is multi-interwoven because there's no lack of diversity that can be singularly defined. If you say, "I want black people in the room," now you're getting broad, right? But you haven't singled down and said, "Okay, I want a person of color who is Caribbean descent," or, "I want a person of color who is African descent," or you take us as one verb. That's it. Right?
Carol Cone:
Right.
Margaret Spence:
So then you move to inclusion. Does everyone have a true voice in the organization or are we doing platitude? And then we ask about equality. Do we all get equal treatment? Do we get equal access? Do we get equal development? Do we get equal opportunities to grow and thrive and live to our full purpose in the organization? Do we get an equitable playing field when we feel we are wrong? Then we move for belonging. Belonging, I think, has gotten a lot of juice. Right? It's gotten a lot of juice because we want to make sure everybody belongs. But if you don't create inclusion, you don't create equity and equality, you cannot build belonging. So rather than do the hard work of inclusion, the hard work of equity and equality, we go to this. Let's make sure people belong. Right? But at the same time, you're microaggressive. You're not creating equality. You're not paying people equally. You're not advancing women collectively. You are not looking at young people. You're still in the mindset of young people complain and they're entitled, but you want belonging. Right? It's a hard work.
So the second half of your question was the CEO pledge. When the CEOs are running around making that pledge, I knew within myself because I was working with a lot of them behind the scene after George Floyd's murder. We did more town halls during that nine month period after George Floyd's murder because employees were revolting and CEOs wanted to stop the noise. CEO pledge was all about stopping the noise. It was never about investing in people of color. It was never about standing up for people of color. It was never about standing up for women. It was never about any of that. It was the public relations front facing. I have done something. I have said something. I have put myself out there and I've cried on TV. But now that you're done crying and years past it, now you're cutting DEI programs. You're defunding the things that you thought you were going to fund. You're not even putting diversity and inclusion on the top 10 important things for CEOs in 2023. If you look at the top 10 important things for CEO in 2023, diversity and inclusion was maybe number 10, so it's moved and it's going to move off of top 10 now. So it was just window dressing.
Carol Cone:
Right. I think that in some of your data, I mean, you talk about 49% of black HR professionals feel that discrimination based on race or ethnicity exists, and then 61% said incivility exists in their workplace. I want to go positive first. Can you give a couple examples of any organizations and use names, I'm sure that it's public, that are doing DE&I or belonging or inclusion well? Are there any doing it well?
Margaret Spence:
So let me start with one of the larger clients that we've worked with. We did some work with LinkedIn, their sales teams, and I felt they were doing a great job. They were curious. They asked questions. They had programs set up, they had established processes, and they had given autonomy to their business leaders to do diversity and inclusion. Well, we work with other clients like the Hartford Insurance where they have multifaceted programs built into their organization that is at every level. They have a DEI team. They have work that they do in the trenches around the DEI, and they do work with leaders, and they have an inclusive leadership model, and they have work that they've went out and purchased to build inclusive leadership and their CEO has bought into it, and they've won a lot of awards, and they have spent the time figuring out how to do a multi-layer, multi-faceted DEI program, right?
Carol Cone:
Okay. Thank you. So as we are trying to prove purpose, and I've done over 30 pieces of research on the work, et cetera, and you've done books and lectures and courses and such, and there's proof that what you do DE&I pays off. It has increased profits, as does purpose. So one, can you mention what is the percentage of growth that companies who do this well, what they can expect, but then what are the barriers?
Margaret Spence:
I ask organizations a simple question. How much revenue share are you losing because you have a lack of diversity? Because most of these organizations only understand money. So unfortunately, that's where you have to start. What is the revenue share that you're losing? If you're serving a diverse marketplace and you don't have a diverse team to service that marketplace, then what happens? Right? What happens then?
You have a bottom line that can grow, but the critical thing is no organization can grow without talent. And so if you don't have a talent resiliency plan and policy that is capturing diversity at its core, then how do you prepare for the next 20 years? How do you have your 30 year mission or your 10 year mission if you're not looking at your talent strategy and the resiliency? And the biggest resistance is coming from executives and leaders. Even if the CEO says, "This is what I want," it is the day-to-day leaders that are resisting building an inclusive work environment where everyone can thrive.
Carol Cone:
So are you saying, and we see this a lot in purpose too, that the CEO might say, "Yes, we need to stand for something. We need to be diverse, et cetera. We're going to do this." And then the next level down is, "Well, I've got to deliver this new innovation. I've got to deliver these sales," et cetera, and it just gets blocked at that level?
Margaret Spence:
Not only does it get blocked, but it gets derailed.
Carol Cone:
Derailed.
Margaret Spence:
So how do we get leaders to force their direct reports to embrace inclusion? Every time I've rolled out a DEI program at an organization, where it ends is with the frontline leaders who refuse to follow the process. And it's not about being busy. It's not about any of that. They will come to a session and they will say, "Margaret, I'm partnering with this organization to make sure that everything is good here." But in their mind, they are maintaining the status quo, and they will do everything they can to stop the movement towards inclusion, especially when it comes to women.
Carol Cone:
And why? Why when the data, why when the richness of the conversation, why when the purchaser power, purchasing power, very female? It's illogical.
Margaret Spence:
It's illogical, and I don't know how we reach these leaders who are entrenched in the status quo. We could do all kinds of inclusive leadership training to try to persuade them, but unless they are true partners with us, and they're true believers in the process of inclusion, and they recognize that being inclusive is not a threat to their personal stance, their personal position, then we are not going to advance this. Here's a good lens, Carol, to look at. As you do the work of Purpose 360, here's the lens. When a woman becomes a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, she's often replaced by a man. I've been studying this for years.
Carol Cone:
Right. Right. Like Indra Nooyi.
Margaret Spence:
Indra Nooyi.
Carol Cone:
Pepsi. Yeah.
Margaret Spence:
Exactly. At Pepsi. She was replaced by four. They broke the company back up and gave it to four men, and then they put one man at the top. It happened at Xerox.
Carol Cone:
Mm-hmm. Ursula Burns.
Margaret Spence:
Right? Ursula Burns.
Carol Cone:
Yeah.
When Xerox, before Ursula Burns, it was a woman. Ursula Burns took over. Now it's run by a man. So every single time a woman ascends to a CEO role in an organization or an executive leadership role, there is never a woman standing behind her to come up. If a black woman ascends to the CEO role, example Walgreens, right? Okay. It's a short-lived experience, and you have no idea how that person exited so fast.
Margaret Spence:
It comes down to, here's the thing. The board of directors are not holding CEOs accountable for inclusion. They're holding them accountable for profit. But profit is driven by inclusion, and profit is driven by talent because the board doesn't do the work. Neither does the CEO. So the board doesn't hold the CEO accountable. In organizations where the CEO says, "I'm going to do accountability. I'm going to make sure that my leaders are rated and their bonuses are paid based on their inclusive leadership and their talent turnover." They don't really create any tools to penalize them because they're afraid that that leader is going to exit and take the business to their competitor. So based on all of that, there is no real driven accountability that anybody feels obligated to when it comes to DEI.
Carol Cone:
Right. Right. I want you to talk a little bit about your Employee to CEO Project, because your mission to empower 5,000 high-powered women into C-suite leadership is profound. How is it going, and to our listeners, how can they support it and participate in it?
Margaret Spence:
Yeah. So what we are doing right now, we're actually retooling the Employee to CEO Project because one of the things that we realized is the C-suite woman is great to get that 5,000 number, right, but there has to be this bedrock underneath where you're building. From the moment a woman lands inside of an organization, she needs to have career guidance. She needs to have that career process. And so we decided to launch a program called Possibilities really to focus around how do we give people the understanding of what's possible inside of their workforce, right?
Some of our organizations will not put a woman into an executive role unless they have run a business unit, but they never ran a business unit. So now you're looking at them going into a C-suite leader role, and they've never run a business unit, or we have a lot of women who are running business units and leaving the business unit role to go back into their regular role, which will stymie them. So our purpose with the Employee to CEO Project is now going to be building this multi-faceted road that women enter early.
Carol Cone:
God, you and I can have lots of conversations. Talk about your inclusion lab, because I just have to tell our listeners that I am so impressed with the breadth and the depth of the training and the sharing that Margaret wants to lift up our entire business economy.
Margaret Spence:
Thank you. So the Inclusion Learning Lab, it was a brainchild of mine in 2017, and we started doing work with clients around what would they need to build a really solid diversity inclusion program. Right? It's not just about hiring the diversity leader. First off, the diversity leader has a 70% turnover. So the first purpose of the Inclusion Learning Lab was to retain the DEI leader in their role. We created a community that is, it's $98. It's just just there for DEI leaders to network, join, be a part of a community, get support, have mental wellness, be able to have a sounding board, be able to come to peer to peer support and learn from another DEI leader, and we made it low cost so that any DEI leader, whether you're-
Carol Cone:
Great. Love it.
Margaret Spence:
... coordinator or you're a CHRO, you can pay that. Then we have the Learning lab itself. We offer courses like a new DEI leader program where we have a 12 month support training program, so we have 12 weeks of training and 12 months of support for DEI leaders who are new to the role. We teach how to benchmark. We want organization and DEI leaders to understand how to benchmark their program against the ISO standards and the GDEIB standards. We talk about strategy because oftentimes what we find in our work as consultants is there's lots of tactics. Create employee resource groups, build women's leadership development programs, but there isn't a strategy that's threaded, that has a data set that's attached to it, that has an outcome that anybody can buy into that also has a result that can be sold to the board and the CEO and everyone else.
Carol Cone:
Right. Right. In the lab, you have cohorts, you have actual cohorts that you create, and I am just curious, what is the secret to your success that these cohorts really are honest and they share their knowledge with each other?
Margaret Spence:
So one of the things that we have created is a safe space to interact. Once a month, I host what's called third Wednesday. It's an open forum for DEI leaders. It is free. We do it for DEI leaders to come just to have a voice. We bring them together and we get between 30 and a hundred people every month depending on what the topic is, and we bring folks together basically to learn from me.
Carol Cone:
I love that. I love that. You talked a little bit about measurement, and I'm just... Our clients say, "Well, how do you prove the purpose is really having an impact?" What are your recommended key measures to show hopefully that the organization's moving forward and they're getting results?
Margaret Spence:
So the critical measurement, we have different ones, but I think the one that we hang our hat on, I should say, and sort of sink our teeth into is the time an employee spends in a role, right? If you are doing programs to empower movement, who is getting developed is the first line, and the second one is how long are they sitting in their role before development? Those are two critical benchmarks, right? It's a benchmark for women. It's a benchmark for people of color. Right? Because if you hire me and I sit in a role for 20 years and nobody notices me, then it's problematic. But the most critical one that we examine for organizations is what we call hiring survival. So how does a candidate survive the hiring process in your organization is critical.
The hiring process is where the biggest holes in organizations is in the hiring process. When you dissect their funnel all the way down and you start asking them, "Well, what happened here?" Give you an example. We had a company that had 20,000 applicants and they only hired 900 people, but they lost everybody between the first interview and the hiring manager actually doing a one-on-one interview with the person. Why? What was it? How did they survive? And we realized that it didn't matter whether you were black or white or young or older or mid-career. It was difficult for people to survive their hiring process.
Carol Cone:
That's amazing. I wanted to ask you, there are diverse professionals listening to this podcast and what, God, there's a lot going on, but what recommendations would you give them today? A younger person per se, male, female, but they're diverse. How they navigate bias and inclusion challenges in an organization?
Margaret Spence:
The first thing is know your worth. Know what you're worth. Know your worth. Understand your value to the organization. Recognize that you are not lifting alone. This is not a solo process. Oftentimes, we find DEI leaders wanting to lift the diversity tug boat on their own. You cannot lift it on your own. It is not a solo process. You need to normalize DEI in the organization, which means that you bring together focus groups, you bring together support networks inside of the organization with leaders. We say to people who are entering this profession, find the people who truly believe and the people who want to partner with you. Make sure that you listen to what they're saying to you because people will often tell you what they're thinking, but because we are so excited about the fact that they're partnering, we don't hear that they actually are maintaining the status quo.
Be willing to reinvent yourself in the role constantly. Don't allow yourself to not be reinvented, right? Allow yourself the room to make mistakes and not take the mistake personally. This is not your company. You do not own that company. You are there as a conduit to create an inclusive voice inside of the organization. It's up to the organization to embrace that inclusive voice. The other thing that I would say to anyone entering the DEI role, there's a point where you have capped out on what you can do, and in that moment, it's important that you rethink where you can take yourself next. You've got to get empowerment and engagement, and you have to understand when you can't make a difference, and if you cannot make a difference, do not become a wounded healer where you burn yourself out trying to heal the organization.
Carol Cone:
A wounded healer. That's an amazing comment. Where do you wish DE&I is going to be, let's just say 2030? So we've got six-ish years.
Margaret Spence:
My wish is that we don't need a DE&I leader role. My wish is that we increase our cultural awareness and our capacity to be inclusive over the next seven years, and we recognize that the role itself of the DE&I leader is not needed. It is every leader's responsibility. DEI is a part of their responsibility. It is every employee's responsibility to create an inclusive, welcoming environment free of microaggression and microinvalidation, free of backbiting and just being bad humans.
Carol Cone:
What do you think is going to happen in the next, let's say two to three years, that is either going to get in the way or might make a strategic shift to allow that to happen?
Margaret Spence:
If we become a more polarized country, the DEI role will disappear. I think what is going to happen because of all of the issues and the polarization of America itself and the political drive to create division inside of the United States and the political drive to pit one group against the next in such a vocal and loud way. If that comes to fruition, then the role of the DEI leader would virtually be gone in the next three years because it will not even exist. I think people will be emboldened to say what they want to try and attempt to put the genie back in the bottle.
Carol Cone:
Do you feel because Gen Z today and younger millennials and then Gen Alpha are so diverse that ultimately when it's going to take obviously decades to get them through the system, but then when they get in positions of power that there will be wind at the back of diversity, inclusion, belonging, and organizations that truly are embracing the dynamism of diversity?
Margaret Spence:
I think so. I don't even think it's going to take decades. I think the current, the students that you see out there protesting right now for gun reform, for example. They're young. They're already feeling empowered to be bold in their ask. The problem with our generation, the generation that's now running the world, right, we're not leaving it better for them. We're not doing that. We're being intensely selfish around what we do. We are a purposeless rudder in this world, and we don't care about the next generation because if we did, we would change our way.
It's not that the younger generation will not make us change. It's that the current people who want the status quo are replicating themselves and replicating themselves in places of power to ultimately maintain the status quo. That's depressing. It's depressing. But you know what? It doesn't mean that we cannot fight.
Carol Cone:
Brilliantly stated. I want to allow you to go unscripted as the close for this conversation, and then I hope you will come back because we have got to keep advancing the extraordinary work that you're doing.
Margaret Spence:
Thank you so much, Carol, and thank you for inviting me to Purpose 360. I love the work you're doing around purpose, and I think to tie what I'm doing to what you are doing, I think it's important to interweave the two things together at this point. I think as women, I'll start there first, as women we have to understand that we are not fighting against each other. I think if we, and I start with women because that's where I start, if we as women do not focus effectively on our collective purpose and our collective experience and our collective walk down the road together, we are going to end up at the other end of this with less rights than we started out with.
I think that we have to dismantle the people who want to be detractors in the work that we do around inclusion, around purpose. We want to address the people who want the status quo, who don't want change, who don't think that having a purpose-driven process and an inclusive, equitable process is important. We have to be able to persuade not only the current generation but the next generation on why this is important. But in order to make an impact, in order to make a true impact, we must get more true believers and partners working shoulder to shoulder with us to build inclusive workspaces where everyone thrives, where everyone belongs, where equity and equality is at its core and it's driven by diversity.
Margaret Spence:
In this moment, Carol, I think that we all can build a future we want to see together. I welcome people to listen to my podcast, reach out to us at the Inclusion Learning Lab, connect with me on LinkedIn, read the things that I write about. But in this moment, I want us to understand that the future we want must be built on purpose, the future we want. The future we want to see has to be built by us, the people occupying the present, because we cannot see the future if we don't deal with the present.
Carol Cone:
Perfect. Perfect. So thank you Margaret.
Margaret Spence:
Yes, absolutely, and I want you to come onto my podcast.
Carol Cone:
Oh, I'd love to come on your podcast. This is the beginning of this incredible love fest, but we have to work so hard, but we will continue to do it. So I want to thank you Margaret Spence. You are just amazing, and you are going to be part of my hopefully circle of friends.
This podcast was brought to you by some amazing people, and I'd love to thank them. Anne Hundertmark and Kristin Kenney at Carol Cone On Purpose. Pete Wright and Andy Nelson, our crack production team at TruStory FM. And you, our listener. Please rate and rank us because we really want to be as high as possible as one of the top business podcasts available so that we can continue exploring together the importance and the activation of authentic purpose. Thanks so much for listening.
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