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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: Brand nerds. Ooh, the Brand Nerds.
Today, there is a person in the building who is not only going to drop some jewels on this edition of Brands, Beats, and Bytes, but the way he will drop them is going to be with wit, with elegance, and with insight. I'm raising the bar, LT. Wit, elegance, and insight. I say that, Brand Nerds, Brands Beats. Uh, those of you who are in the 100 countries listening to us, thank you very much, Brand Nerds, for, uh, representing the Brands Beats and Bytes, Brand Nerds crew around the globe.
Because, uh, Larry, there are some friends that I have in this business. Who I just became friendly with over time. And there are other friends in this business where we have been pretty cool. And some circumstances have brought us even closer together today. Larry is such a friend is, is, is such a friend.
And so I cannot wait for the Brand Nerds to, in the words of, I think the, the, the penguin in Batman. Or it could have been the Joker. I don't remember which one. Wait till they get a load of me. One of these characters in Batman. Wait till they get a load of me. Larry, let the Brand Nerds know who they're going to get a load of today.
LT: All right, DC. That's awesome. We have Josh Ball in the house today, or as he is affectionately known as Jay Breezy. Welcome.
Josh Ball: Thank you. I appreciate it. I'm excited to be here with you two and Brand Nerd Nation.
LT: Oh, I love that. Brand Nerd Nation. So okay, Brand Nerds. Brand Nerd Nation. We try and provide some of the best people we know for you to meet and jay breezy really qualifies as As DC, was alluding to he also has a background starting on the agency side and has now moved to the client side, which is really interesting.
So let's walk you through it So Jay Breezy attends Southern Methodist University also best known as SMU where he graduates with a BA in Corporate Communications and Public Affairs. After graduation, his first job is right there in Dallas as an assistant account exec with Zimmerman Advertising working on the Nissan account.
So then he gets a great opportunity to become an account executive and he joins Campbell Ewald on the Chevy account, which is a big deal in the ad community, Branders. That's a really cool thing for a young person. So Jay Breezy starting it off. He's banging it, right? So then he decides to pick, pick up and move to Atlanta where he joins big agency BBDO.
First as an account exec working on the AT& T account, and he is eventually promoted to senior account exec, where he earns a New York City NYC Addy Award, and enters BBDO Wall of Fame for providing service that exceeds high standards, which is really cool. He's making his mark. So this kind of work gets you promoted to account supervisor, continuing on the AT& T account, where he's managing two teams with 10 total direct reports.
So after getting promoted to management supervisor at BBDO, Moxie Agency comes calling, where Jay Breezy joins them on the Chick fil A account and eventually is promoted to VP account supervisor, where among many responsibilities, he's asked to go on site for a full year with our friends at Coca Cola down at Atlanta HQ to lead a new social media center of excellence.
So that's all great stuff and Jay Breezy continues on his upward trajectory by joining our friends at Dagger as VP of Client Partnerships and is eventually promoted to SVP Client Partner, who we work closely with on our mutual Aflac client. So Jay Breezy does great work at Dagger where he is responsible for 7 million worth of business with six direct reports and is there when in 2020, Dagger is recognized as AdAge 2020 Small Agency of the Year Silver Southeast.
They're listed in AdWeek's 100 Fastest Growing Agencies as well as AdAge and Atlanta Business Chronicle Best Places to Work List. So Jay Breezy's doing great and the people he's working with, Bye. So he's really kicking it on the agency side. But guess what? Brand Nerds, he gets an opportunity to join our aforementioned mutual Dagger BPD client, uh, Aflac, which is awesome.
And he's eventually settling into his current role. At AFLAC as VP Constituent Marketing responsible for marketing to the various and very important B2B constituents within the AFLAC business model. We're really looking forward to this one. Welcome to Brands Beats and Bytes, Jay Breezy.
Josh Ball: Thank you. I appreciate it.
I'm excited. This is, uh, like I said earlier, this is my first time on a podcast. And so, uh, I'm very much looking forward to chatting with both of y'all today.
DC: These are your flowers. Jay breezy, these are your flowers that Larry has given to you. And it's all you, all you.
Josh Ball: Thank you. I appreciate it very much.
It's very much, uh, anytime you work in an agency environment or really probably any job, I don't really know much different, but there's so many people that go into all the different things that go on on a day to day basis. And so, you know, when you're able to find some success, it's certainly not always stuff that you're doing, but, um, you know, you gotta, you gotta find those opportunities and that's what people need to understand.
LT: Well said
DC: Jay breezy. We're going into the get comfy section, get comfy, where we cover a topic, the set things off for the podcast, you have a unique set of skills There's one skill, I believe, that uh, is a separator for you. At least one. And that is your ability to read the room and read the situation.
And Brandner, just so you know, uh, Jay Breezy, a name that I gave him, By the way, a moniker. Shocking, isn't it? What's that now? I said that's shocking that you gave him that
name.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm gonna digress for a second, Larry and, uh, and Jay Breezy. There would be times where he and I would be in the same meeting with, uh, Group of people and I would refer to him as Jay breezy and no one knew that that's actually I was talking to so they would be in a room going like, Oh, who's Jay breezy?
Why does he keep telling me? Oh, that's me. I'm I'm Jay breezy. You got a real back to you. Thank you. Back back to the question. Your ability to read a room, brother, is wicked. And your ability to read a situation is equally wicked. That's not something that gets taught in school. That's something that you just gotta figure out how to do it.
And I'd like you to do two things, Jay Breezy. One, share with the Brand Nerds when we met for the first time in New York. Where I was, uh, speaking and we had some people in the room. I'll let you talk about people, the positions of the room, not don't mention the client or the name, just like the level of people in the room who was in the room and what you discern because you later came to me, I think that same day and said, Hey, I think I understand what's happening here.
And then number two, how did you develop and how do you hone the ability to read rooms? And moments. How did that happen for you?
Josh Ball: Uh, yeah, for sure. So, I mean, DC, we met a while back. We've worked on a ton of different stuff together. A ton of mutual clients in our background. And the first time we met, you were a featured speaker at a symposium of different agencies.
And the client had you in and they were new and they had a couple other leaders within the company in and you came in and I remember sitting in the room. It was one of my first times in that room with that group as well. And you started absolutely spitting fastball at everybody and you were talking about the, the need to be bold and you were talking about the dynamics of the account.
And where they were and where they needed to be and how all of these people in the room, many of which were new, like yourself, um, and like myself and, and, and, and the client, um, you know, they, they really needed to come together around the idea of changing the dynamics of the way that they've been acting.
And I remembered being in that room and. Let's kind of go to the second part of your question, and I'm thinking to myself, this is an awfully, uh, interesting message for someone that's never been a part of her, of the, uh, of the team of clients before, right? This seems a little aggressive in my mind.
LT: Hey, hey, Jay Breezy, DC, knowing him now, DC aggressive, that's shocking, don't you think?
Josh Ball: Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, exactly. It was very direct and it was very forward and you didn't mince words, which I frankly love.
LT: Yeah.
Josh Ball: I don't, I don't care for when people really dance around things too much. And it was very clear that you'd been given a brief for that discussion, you know? And I think that that is what Um, when you talk about reading a room, um, and developing that skill, I'm always thinking about who's delivering the message and the relationships that they might have.
And what, why is that message pertinent for that time? Why did that person feel like they had to say that? Where is it coming from? What's, you know, what are the potential motives that they might have, good or bad, um, you know, and why do they feel like that thing needed to be said? What's the context around it that.
I might be able to bring in from previous experiences or conversations or, or whatnot in order to get to why we are where we are today. And it helps me to remember, you know, it helps me to think through kind of, um, I always try and assume this thing. Renee Brown said this, uh, you know, I always assume that people are coming and try to assume positive intent.
DC: Right.
Josh Ball: Whenever I'm in a situation, I'm always assuming that people have a very good intent, but, you know, you got to think through what are the other parts of that? Like, so what, you know, what is something that could be encouraging this? And, and frankly, I knew. When you were talking that as an agency person, you were talking about stuff that everybody in that room wanted to do, but really the reason that you were there was not for the agency folks.
You were billed as like the speaker for the agencies, but there were a few other people within that client's organization that they needed to get on board with their agenda. And I could tell very quickly that the talk that you were giving was directed at them. And I think this is where you and I hit it off because we'd never met before.
And, uh, I sauntered up to you afterwards and said, you weren't talking to us, were you? And I think you started laughing.
DC: That's exactly what he said.
Josh Ball: And, uh, you know, that's, I think, the story of how DC and I's relationship has, uh, As started and blossomed and now, you know, I consider you to be, you know, my mentor, um, in, in, in many respects.
And so, um, it was a long time ago and many, many, many different experiences since then. But, you know, as far as reading a room, it's really, it's just trying to put together where the external dynamics that are at play and think through what is someone's actual intent, not necessarily always exactly what they're saying, but where are they going with it so that I can try and get ahead.
Um, and, you know, I used to talk about this thing on the account service side about, you know, proactive service. How do we provide things for our clients or for people that they don't even know that they're asking for, they may not even need? And so I try to cut through what's going on in the room, the questions and the people and, and really like, where are we going with this, you know?
And what is the intent here behind it? And then try and get to that first. Um, because to me. That is a way for you to stand out in a group of people. Right. And, you know, one of the things that I'll talk about a lot today probably is the idea of like a personal brand and, you know, how you can establish in ways that you can look at things and situations to, uh, use opportunities and find opportunities to establish your personal brand.
LT: That's deep. I love that proactive service part Jay Breezy. That's really cool.
DC: It is good. That's that's good.
Josh Ball: Yeah, I mean, sometimes people don't know how to ask what they're asking for, you know, sometimes people know that something they don't know what it is, um, you know, sometimes people are scared to ask exactly what they
LT: RIght.
Josh Ball: You know, so if you can try and interpret that. And not just listen to what they're saying and do exactly what they're saying, because then you become a commodity, right? Anybody can do exactly what other people tell them to do. But the real value that I think that people provide in business specifically on the agency side, from an account service perspective is what, what else can I add?
How can I be a strategic partner for you to where I'm intrinsic with your success and you're with mine versus I'm someone that you could, you could do without like anybody can do exactly what someone else in the group. Right. Anybody can take, take direction. That's not a value. That's an exercise. Um, so I want to be more valuable.
I want to try to think through, you know, the dynamics, like I said, of what's going on so that I can help them to articulate better what they're looking for, help them to see what they might need that they don't see yet. Um, you know, and that it takes time experience sometimes, you know, but I think it's super important.
DC: Uh, Larry, what I've witnessed from Jay Breezy on countless occasions is in business what the great Wayne Gretzky is quoted as saying in hockey, and this is not exactly the quote, but it's something akin to good players skate to where the puck is, great players skate to where the puck is going. Jay Breezy understands how to skate to where the puck is going, and now I'm getting a better understanding as to why you do that is you are asking yourself the questions of what's the real intent here. Who's the real audience? What was the brief to this person? You're asking yourself those series of questions, which then leads you to, Oh, the puck is going over there. It's not here in the seat where I'm, I'm here.
I'm, I'm representing, uh, my agency and I'm thinking the puck is here. No, the puck, the puck is over going over there somewhere. So that's one thing. And then the second is, uh, this, this, this very quotable. People don't know how to ask for what they are asking for. That's big Jay Breezy. Yeah. That, that, that's big. So thank you for sharing that with the Brand Nerds.
LT: I want one build on that too. I love
DC: Please brother, please. Yeah.
LT: Jay Breezy's going with this and I think it's really important for the brand nerds to hear. Um, he talked about reading and D you talk about reading the room. You can't do this in every room, Brand Nerds. You gotta pick your spots. Like if you're having, if there's a lot of people in the, in a room and there's, you know, higher ups, you know, you probably want to pick and choose whether you're going to, as a junior person, ask questions at all, or if that's the forum. But if it's the right forum, don't worry about coming off as asking the quote unquote, dumb question.
You gotta ask questions to understand. So, again, you gotta read the room. Smaller rooms, less people. You can have the ability to ask maybe more questions. But don't be afraid to ask questions. And a lot of people do it because they don't want to appear stupid. But actually There's ways to do that. I have some, my friend, uh, um, uh, Steve Horowitz, uh, D who, you know, um, who, who runs a company that helps, um, uh, professional sports teams buy and sell themselves.
And Steve has this disarming of way, well, I might have fallen up the turnup truck. He didn't fall up any up truck, you know, he would, he starts all that and then he'll ask any question, you know. So, ask the questions and don't worry about feeling stupid, but make sure you're doing it in the right forum.
That would be my counsel.
DC: Great counsel. Great counsel.
All right, Larry, we are going to move over to five questions. So, Jay Breezy, in this segment, the way it goes down is I ask a question, Larry asks a question, we go back and forth until we arrive at five. I have the pleasure of beginning this thing.
Josh Ball: Let's do it.
DC: I'd like you to take, I'd like you to take yourself back, brother. Take yourself back. Conjuring your mind a moment, Jay Breezy, where you were experiencing a brand. And as you were experiencing this brand, ooh, my goodness, Jay Breezy, you were just into it. Could not get enough of spending time with it, thinking about it, talking about it, spending time with friends on it.
You just can't. This was your thing. This brand or brand experience was your thing. A bit like a first love. What, what was that brand or brand experience for you, Jay Breezy?
Josh Ball: Yeah. I mean, let me put it in context of like advertising terms, because to me, it was very influential for me and, and, and in the way that I thought about what was possible to do as a career, if that's okay. And so to me, like the first advertising campaign And, um, that I ever saw that I thought was magnificent. And this was before I was old enough to drink.
So I didn't spend a lot of time with the brand DC, but, uh, back in the day, there was this group of commercials by Miller Highlife that were directed by Errol Morris that just were different than anything I'd ever seen before. And they were very simple. Um, and that's been something that has stuck with me forever.
It's the simplicity of what they were, and they were very much insight based in that, um, it was always a guy, there was a scene. You would see parts of him and it would just be his internal monologue about what was going on in the situation and it would be somewhat humorous and be cooking bacon or watering the yard, or, you know, and then the combination would always be an insight about what it's like to kind of be a man's man. And then the culmination of those spots were, and you'd celebrate that moment of doing what you're doing with a Miller High Life. And I thought that those ads were brilliant. Because I don't know if it was because I was just like, you know, I was developing and trying to figure out kind of dude I wanted to be, um, you know, I have no idea.
I just remember thinking this is like, they're not shouting. I don't feel like I'm being sold. I didn't need, you know, you, you got to know them. So you would expect them, but there was really no branding elements until many of them until the very end. And I just thought that they were incredibly cool ads and I have, have tried to, um, you know, as I evaluate ads for a living now, um, and I need to, I need to continue to, I need to be good at this still is like, how simple can it be, right?
How do you know something about the work that is going to resonate with them in a way that is not going to resonate with everybody else. You can get their attention quickly. You can make something super relatable. Something that you are, um, you know, you have in common with them and then just kind of make sure that you insert yourself into that moment, right?
And to me, that's what those ads did brilliantly. Um, and so from a, from a brand love perspective, that's kind of the first time that I saw something. I was like, Whoa, like when I get older. I'm going to drink the High Life. I did.
I did for a while.
LT: I love the way you describe that. You know what's my reaction to that is, um, I remember being in grad school and someone coming in, and I don't remember what agency it was, Um, and they were talking about how, you know, Miller originally, and I think it may still say on the highlight, but the champagne of beers, like it was like supposed to be a premium beer and that was going nowhere.
So, again, I don't remember what agency and I don't remember the specific time frame, but they changed the positioning and wanted to celebrate working people. And that's exactly what it was. They called it Miller Time because you got off work and you deserved a Miller highlight for that, right? Again, the simplicity of that.
And it was and people for many years would refer at the end of the day to Miller Time. That's when you know, you're doing something right. Not even beer drinkers. Everybody knew, Oh, it's Miller Time. That means it's the end of the day and celebrate the end of your work day. And so when you get into the culture like that, because of the simplicity that you're talking about, Jay Breezy that's a huge thing.
This is my little rail, not little rail, we talk about this on the show constantly, Jay Breezy, someone came aboard, whether it was at the agency and or the client, probably inspired starting with the client. This is getting old. We need to move on from that. You know, maybe, maybe their volume increase wasn't as high as it was the year before.
Let's reposition and those are the, when people just want to, a lot of times just for selfish reasons because they want to make their mark, not because it's not working. And there's nothing that DC and I hate more than when people doing shit for their own selfish reasons and not doing what's best for the business.
We're all about what's best for the business. And whoever took Miller off that, that, that train and that path, that was awful because they gave up something that was really special. So that's my lonely.
Josh Ball: And they look, there's been hundreds of iterations of that commercial with different brands and stuff.
LT: Right.
Josh Ball: You know, everyone's trying to recapture what they had. And yeah, I mean, it was, it was magical and it went on for years. And no matter how long that went on, I never got old because there was always a different incarnation of the situation that they were in that you would want to celebrate as a dude.
You know, whether it was cooking bacon or watching football or mowing the lawn or whatever it was, right? It was, it was just so simple and brilliant. Um, you know, I think you're right. I mean, you're right about people always want to come in and they want to make their own mark. And I under, I can understand that.
Like, that's, um, that's something that I get. But I think that people sometimes feel like they have to make their mark in the way they're supposed to make their mark. Like, okay, I'm in charge of marketing. Like we need a new campaign. What do you, or do you need to make your campaign better? Or can you drive your campaign new in different ways?
Can you find new markets? Can you take it in different places? Like there's, there's so many ways that, that you could look at a problem. And, um, I think that too, too many people look at it very formulaically, like, okay, I'm here to create ads. We need to create different ads. Because I'm different and they hired me and, you know, that's, that to me is a little bit, um, I don't know.
It's simple, right? And then that's part of why, um, when I was brought on, like, you know, at Aflac, we are, uh, re engaging a dormant kind of business to business practice. And the reality is that, you know, Aflac is not a business to business brand. Like we are a brand that's sold. Um, we have a very large sales force out there that work very hard every day.
And I don't need to be the one who's out there trying to B2B and sell directly to businesses. I need to make sure that they're, that process is in place and it's working. So how do I make that process better? And that's why we didn't call it B2B. We call it a constituent because there's various people that we are trying to impact in the path to purchase.
Yeah. Businesses are some of them and brokers are some of them, but some of them are our own salespeople. Some of them are, you know, there's, there's so many different. Ways that we are able to make an impact at a client or at an agency, and it should, you should, I think you should always be thinking about, like, what is new and different that I could do that will give a different angle on something.
And that doesn't require you to kind of blow everything up and try and start from zero and just follow the playbook.
DC: Great point. Great point. One comment before we go to the next question. Jay Breezy, what you're bringing up often happens in our world of marketing, communications, and advertising. And it is marketing hubris and selfishness, marketing hubris, and selfishness.
I'm now on the scene. So I now want to do something different. I'm going to list a couple of brands, Jacuzzi, Kleenex, Band Aids. Those are brands that are now, uh, they represent categories. So they will, someone will ask for a Band Aid. They may not get the brand Band Aid, but they're saying they want the brand Band Aid and Miller Time was one of those things.
It didn't matter to Larry's point, whether you were literally drinking a Miller, what mattered was that occasion, that moment that Miller owned. And they gave it up. Yep. They gave it away. They, they, they gave it away. All right. So Larry, next question, brother.
LT: Okay. Jay Breezy. So when thinking about your career, who is had or is having the most influence on your career?
Josh Ball: Um, that is a, that's a question. It's so difficult to answer. So I'm going to say the answer and then I'm going to immediately back with. So it's really it's me, right? I'm responsible. For my own actions and my own direction and my own, you know, path that I'm taking. Now in reality, I have had hundreds, if not thousands of people that have impacted me along the way, bosses, clients, creative directors, um, you know, people that I don't even meet who make ads that I saw when I was a kid, right?
You know, there's always things that you can take from everyone. And so it's really hard for me to put like, you know, hey, it's this person at this time. That had the most impact on me, you know, and I think it's really important for people to look at the situation and say, like, look, whether it's something good that they're doing that I want to learn from or something bad that they're doing that I don't want to maybe do, you know, looking at both sides of that equation and finding your own style and rhythm, um, to how you want to approach your job.
And so, I mean, ultimately, you know, I, I am responsible for and have the most influence on my career. But that's not an egotistical thing. It's just a reality, right? And I need to be responsible for taking the inputs from everybody else and not trying to figure it all out on my own, you know? And so, I mean, I think DC is a great example, right?
I've mentioned he's kind of a mentor to me. Um, you know, I've learned a ton just sitting and watching the way that DC looks at problems. I've learned a ton from listening to the way that he, um, gives creative feedback. And proposes solutions, you know, and, and there's all kinds of, um, you know, people along the way that have had major impacts on me.
Um, and so it's hard to, it's hard to say it's just one person, you know, it really is. But, um, if you're looking for, you know, people, In every situation, how do you want to learn from this? I think that you're able to kind of give the answer of me, um, and, and say that you're, you're taking something from everybody.
And look, that's how you learn. I mean, a big part of getting a job and, and, um, finding success is learning, you know, and, and I'm sure I'll get to it. I mean, I have not always been successful. I have failed plenty of times and, and being okay with that is, is really hard. But it's also something that gets back to the answer where it's like, okay, how am I going to learn from this and come out ahead?
And, you know, is there an opportunity to fail upward here and make sure that this doesn't happen again, or how do I learn from it or how do I leverage the situation to something different? Um, you know, um, and try and make your own path a little bit.
DC: All right. Jay Breezy. This question is exactly as Larry has stated it.
We want to know from our guests who has influenced their careers. You have taken a different approach here. But your different approach has actually inspired me to do something that I've never done. And that is, uh, I want to briefly talk about the influence that you've had on my career. And it has to do with, uh, mischaracterization.
Um, you do not lack confidence, nor do you suffer fools. I resemble that comment, Jay Breezy, and what I thought was going to happen between you and I is we were going to build great work together because we both have very strong opinions, and we're willing to debate one another in service of getting to the best idea.
You and I would go back and forth, you know this Jay Breezy, we go, what about this, what about this, what about that, what about this, this, and then we, we come out of it, you know, With these two perspectives, mind melding, and all of a sudden we've got, wow, look at this thing here. So that's what you and I have Jay breezy.
The other thing that we have that I don't know that many people know about is yes, you have, you have this brilliance that comes forward. But you're also Jay Breezy, a teddy bear. Okay, you're just a big fluffy vulnerable teddy bear And I mean that respectfully, okay And and so what I've learned from you that's impacted my career is as I'm meeting people Don't cement who I think they are too early or ever leave space for for the canvas to paint itself, and you might just end up with a, a beautiful painting with colors of vibrancy that you didn't know existed.
And that is the influence you've had on me, Jay Breezy, and I am thankful for that, brother.
Josh Ball: Well, I appreciate you DC had a similar influence on me. I mean, I think that, you know, the perspective that you bring and, you know, you mentioned, like, some of the debates we've gotten into, like,
DC: We have.
Josh Ball: You know, we definitely have. Right. But every 1 of those has been in the, um. In the spirit of getting to the best product for who we're representing and absolutely valuable for them. Yes. And that's one of the things that, you know, like, I, I, I feel like I, I'm still learning, but early in my career, I have an opinion and I would be like, well, you know, and here's my opinion.
I was right. And frankly, I didn't have the gravitas or the, you know, That like to stand on to be right in the room with some of the people that, you know, and it came across very egotistical of me and what I've learned, or I've tried to learn, and I'm still learning and every day is that, you know, You've got to be open to being, um, incorrect on things and you have to be able to navigate conversations in a way where there's tension, but it's healthy tension.
And that is something that I think is super important for people because, you know, tension can come off and it makes a lot of people uncomfortable, but DC, it doesn't make you uncomfortable.
DC: It is a valuable asset for us.
We relish it. We relish it.
Josh Ball: I love it. Right? And sometimes people in the room and like, you know, we'll be going at it and people will be like, God, that was uncomfortable.
And I'm like, what are you talking about? That was great. You know? And they think that I'm a psychopath, but it's not.
DC: Yes. That's right.
Josh Ball: It's like, we're learning from one another. And frankly, we're just holes.
DC: Yes.
Josh Ball: We're just holes.
DC: Yes.
Josh Ball: And what we're doing to make sure that there are no more holes to be poked by anyone else.
Right. And that, and you and I are, are so aligned in our thinking because of our relationship outside of work. And because of all the different things that we've gone through and the various stages of, of working together, that we just know each other really well. And we, and I can trust you and I know where you're coming from.
Like you're never coming at me. But so many people, um, take things too personally and I've done this before, right? Someone disagrees with me. Well, they don't like me or they're, you know, they must, they must, you know, and that's really not the case. Like if we're all doing that, we will end up with the best product possible. And I'm wrong a lot more than I'm right. You know, but if I'm wrong, I will have been convinced by somebody else that I was wrong and that that whatever it is, is the right way to go. And at that point, it doesn't matter to me anymore because I've been convinced, you know, all I want to do is be convinced.
And sometimes that comes from my mind and many other times it comes from other people. But, um, if you're not challenging things and having that healthy confrontation and having that, that, you know, debate, um, it's very easy to get just. You know, there's no healthy tension in your work. There's no real insight that's been given.
And there's a lot of stuff out there that's just, it just looks and feels like everything else and it doesn't, um, captivate people or it's not based on something that will motivate people. And it's just work for work's sake. And there's a lot of people out there that are happy to do that. But I think that's part of the reason why we're kind of spirits a little bit is that neither of us feel that way.
DC: At all,
LT: there's a confidence factor to that. Just because there's a confidence factor that 1 has to have also. And I think what you're saying, Jay Breezy is that if you have the ability to really not take it personal, you also have a confidence about you and those go hand in hand.
Josh Ball: Yeah, it's important though, that and what I've learned.
Is that and I'm still learning look I make this mistake all the time Is that the way that I pertain myself is not that i'm so confident because i'm right It's i'm so confident because I trust the people i'm with right
DC: And well said
Josh Ball: if they don't have the same trust in me and I don't realize that it'll come across like hey look I'm i'm in charge here and this is the way it's gonna go or You know, like i'm smarter than you or whatever and that's just not ever where i'm coming from So part of my confidence is because I know deep down what i'm doing is is um You Of it comes from a good place, but so oftentimes if I'm not well and delivering that. And I don't project what I actually mean, like, it can go sideways, and it can go sideways very quickly. So I think that's a really important component of it, you know?
LT: Got it. Are you ready for the next question?
DC: I am, I'm, I am, Larry. Jay Breezy, what's your biggest F up in your career? I'm talking about the big, juicy, juicy, stanky F up, and, and more importantly, what did you learn from said F up?
Josh Ball: I mean, I'll take a moment because there's just, there's so many.
DC: Take your time. Take your time.
Josh Ball: Yeah, I mean, look, it kind of gets into what we were talking about a second ago. It's actually a decent segue, DC. I mean, I've F'd up many times in my career. Um, because I felt like I was right in a situation and I wouldn't allow myself to, um, see it from another person's perspective.
And look, man, I mean, I'll be very honest with you. Like I've, I've been fired from jobs because of that, because the relationship between me and another person would sour, um, just because we were not able to work together in a way that was, that was, um, cohesive. Um, and that is really hard. You know what I mean?
It's really hard to have that kind of thing happen. And so I think that like what I learned from it is that I have to be more considerate and I have to understand that, you know, there's healthy tension and there's unhealthy tension and figuring out where that line is. Um, and making sure people really know where you're coming from is important and it's okay to disagree at times, right?
But at some point, the disagreement needs to be put away and it can't just continue to linger. Um, and you've got to move forward, right? That's what business is about. Is moving things forward. You can't just sit in a period of debate forever. Um, and so, you know, learning from those, from those experience, you know, from that experience and others and just making sure that I am constantly and I'm guilty of it every day, you know, constantly trying to check myself in a way that allows me to go back to kind of, you know, reading the room.
And I'll tell you, like, that's just so much harder these days. Cause reading a room when you're sitting around a table with a bunch of people is a lot easier than reading a room when you're sitting on a computer and people are off camera or they're not really paying attention or whatever it is like it's the dynamics of that have changed dramatically.
Um, and so, you know, you've got to continue to evolve and you're going to try and find new ways to continue to accomplish and try and figure out where things are going so you can get there. Early and be ready to provide the value that people really need, um, you know, and, and, and you can miss that, you know, in the situation I'm talking about, I thought the value that I really needed to provide was to be a check and balance against, um, you know, somebody's, um, opinion on something and it just ended up being the wrong approach.
You know, and so what I've learned is that, um, you've got to be very considerate and you've got to remember and make sure that people understand where you're coming from on things at some point, you need to put aside what you think and go with with what somebody else thinks if there's an impasse and that's okay.
But I've also found that like, um, maybe the biggest thing that I've learned is that, um, failure is not like an end point, you know, like for me, in the many times in my career where I have felt like, Hey, this is, you know, this did not work out like this client we lost or this, you know, this happened with this person or, or that happened.
And it just feels like you are, um, completely at a loss for how you got to where you got to and why you got there. Um, it's okay to feel that way, but, um, Like I said, like there needs to be a time that you move on. And I have found that the people that I find to be the most respected and, and the people that I respect the most and the people that I found to be the most successful are the ones that are able to get up and dust themselves off from those moments quickest.
So, you know, take a, take an hour, take an afternoon, take a day, but then like get right back up off the mat and go right back at it. Because it's very easy to get into a situation where your failure is something that you feel like you are and not the situation that you're in. And situations can change and people can change, you know, do you see like you were saying earlier, the canvas of a person like is not something that's hanging in an art gallery, like that's something that person's always painting.
Right. And you may not like the first half of it. But, you know, a year later, I mean, you may take a look at it and be like, wait a second, there's a whole dimension of that, of that painting. I never even noticed like, you know, in the background. Look at how incredible that is. Um, and so you're that as well.
And you got to be able to dust yourself off and say, okay, what did I learn from the situation? And then how am I going to move forward and try and make sure that I'm not back here again, and hold yourself as accountable to that as you can while maintaining your, you know, your, your moral standards are kind of, you know, making sure you're true to who you want to be.
DC: Hmm. Well said brother.
LT: Of deep, a lot of deep stuff here. Dee, I just have a quick follow up that I want to convey to the Brand Nerds here is that, you know, you came in saying that Jay Breezy is one of the best at reading a room. Yeah. And the reason why he is one of the best at reading a room is for all the reasons he's set up front, understand motives of people, you know, really trying to get into people's heads.
But you know what? It's also 'cause he effed up. And was in situations where he went to unhealthy tension, as he was talking about it said in the line, and he, and he went over the line, so to speak, and when you do to his point that failure is not the end there, what he took from that was the understanding of what was going on.
And that actually helped him be even that much better at reading a room because he went too far. It's like, um, it's like my, my, uh, an old guest of our program, Scott Doniger, Scott's father was a race car driver. And Scott's father always said that when you're right, when you're taking a curve. Uh, you know, you can, if you made the curve, you can go a little bit faster than next time and a little bit faster than next time. And at some point you're going to spin out, but you've got to find that line.
Josh Ball: Right.
DC: Great analog, great analog. Next question, Larry? Let's do it. Let's do it.
LT: Jay Breezy, on the technology side, um, that's with our Byte side here, right? So when you think about technology and marketing, can you tell us where you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech? Or you can focus on areas that you think that they should, should simply be leery of or avoid? Thank you.
Josh Ball: Um, this is something I'm fascinated by, you know, I, I, it's an area that makes me uncomfortable to maybe, maybe a bit of my fascination with it because technology is changing so fast that I find it very difficult to keep up with, you know, and, and as much as I have the best intention of reading and, and learning constantly, like sometimes it's just like, You know, where did this thing come from? And why didn't I know about it? How do I use it now? Are we late? Like, oh, goodness, that's a failure. No. So, you know, I think that like technology is something that as marketers, we need to be thinking in terms of for a couple different things, like business, always efficiency is really important. And, but I think it's At the end of the day, whether it's technology or not, you really have to think about what is my target?
And what am I trying to communicate? And how do I meet them? And, you know, and I think that too often as marketers, We become enamored with the new, right. And so, you know, everyone's talking about AI and, you know, I saw, I saw a cool ad, uh, just yesterday morning and it was from overstock. com and it was just a series of pictures of their CEO, kind of in a warehouse talking about how they go into and find all these liquidation and they consolidate them and they put them in the warehouse and they ship them out direct. That's how they're efficient and that's how they keep costs down and, you know, and that's, that's their business model. And then at the very end of the ad, it was like, and by the way, this whole ad was made by AI.
So we were saving money there too. And that's the one view. And, and I thought it was really interesting. Right. And that was a cool application of AI, right. But like, that doesn't mean that every ad should be AI from, from now on. Right. And people can fall into that trap that it's like, well, if they're doing it, I should do it.
And, you know, at the end of the day, you know, my boss and I were having a discussion this morning and he was showing me a really cool direct mail piece that he got. And it, and it's just like, to me, it doesn't matter. the mechanism and how, how cool you may feel in the way that you're talking about how technological or advanced the system is that you're working in.
Like those are necessary, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, like a really good direct mail piece is just as effective as something that is highly technological and, um, and really kind of, uh, I don't know, snazzy. Is that, is that the right word, you know, and, and, and having the, the ability to say like, okay, well, this doesn't, you know, this isn't something I'm going to put on my resume, but at the end of the day, it's probably the right thing to do.
Like, to me, that's really the most important way of evaluating what is in your, um, you know, your capabilities as far as technology goes, you know, it's, it's making sure that you're thinking through what is the best way to do this and not what way do I want to do it? Because I haven't done this before.
And I think it might be cool.
LT: That's the big point. Love that.
DC: I don't just the final question. Yeah. What do you, what are you most proud of?
Josh Ball: Um, you know, uh, there, there's, there's a lot that I'm proud of. You know, I, um, you know, obviously I'm proud of, uh, you know, my family. And the caliber of the network that I've been able to, um, you know, uh, to develop and, and, and the people that have had the most influence on my life.
I'm proud to know that. But really, DC, I think, I think what I'm, you know, if I'm going to give you a better answer, a non generic answer, I'm really most proud of. It's been a season of my life that I'm getting into where I am really finding self evaluation and, and learning to be something that is incredibly important to me and trying to get to kind of the way that I operate, why I operate that way. And how can I bring in new thinking from the outside to pressure test that to give myself that healthy tension that we were talking about earlier. And, uh, I was not able to do that for a very long time because I was so focused on, um, tasks and goals and objectives and, you know, onto the next thing onto the next thing.
Oh, yeah. I'll worry about self development. And that kind of thing down the road, right. But until I finally stopped and made that a priority and allowed other people to come in and to help me to evaluate things within my life. Um, I was, I was in a rut and I didn't even know it. You know, I thought it was a role, but in reality it was not.
It was, it was a rut. Um, and I am much happier than I've ever been. Just because I'm more comfortable than I've ever been. And I find a lot of value now in that. So taking other people's input, trying to apply it in ways that are useful and you know, just trying to be a good man, trying to, trying, trying to be a good person, trying to be a good employee, trying to be a good boss, trying to be a good citizen, you know, whatever it might be, um, it's, um, I just am a lot more, at the end of the day, I'm a lot more content.
And proud of, of the way that that feels, then I would have been, if I'd ignored all that stuff and made, um, sacrifices or, um, you know, made sacrifices, probably not the right word, if I'd cut corners or if I had kind of made concessions along the way in efforts to make another task done, that might look good to somebody else.
Um, I did that for a long time. And, um, so to me. That's probably a better answer that you might be more looking for.
LT: That is, I love it. Love it.
DC: That's it. Those are five questions. Jay Breezy.
Josh Ball: Man, we got through it.
LT: We did. We did.
Josh Ball: We did.
LT: That was a great close for that segment, Jay breezy. But guess what we're up to. We are in the next segment of what's popping. What's popping. D what's popping. What's popping. Jay breezy.
This is our chance to shout out, shout down or simply air something happening in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for discussion and Jay Breezy. I think you have one.
Josh Ball: I do. Yeah, there's one that that that really actually quite recent and kind of goes back to over the weekend when President Biden announced that he was no longer seeking reelection and through his support behind his vice presidential candidate and watching watching Kamala Harris and the way that that organization is mobilized.
I find that it makes me think that what is popping is the value that, um, more a diverse set of people in from an age and perspective can can provide. And what do I mean by that? So, you know, Kamala Harris over the past couple of days has taken advantage of a number of different things and trends that I don't know that That she identified and I'm quite certain she didn't, you know, but I do know that there are people within her staff and circle that she's allowed to be there that are probably a lot younger, a lot more savvy with what's going on on social, a lot more plugged into what their generation might think. And I've made some recommendations and like, ask the questions and put their hand up and they're providing some value. Now, whether or not it's the right move or the wrong move, like, I don't know, we'll see. But I, I think it's fascinating and something that is of national kind of exposure and something that is, you know, what's incredible important, certainly to the candidate.
Um, and then people that are supporting, supporting her, that there is a significant intrinsic value that is being brought forward to her by what I would assume to be a much younger generation and not someone who's been tested and tried in Washington fires for decades. And you know what I mean? It's like, well, Hey, you know, this famous person said this about you.
We should take advantage of it. And change our Twitter page profile to this color and you should embrace being, you know, considered brat, you know, someone probably had to sit down and explain to her what that meant. And. Identifying that and having the confidence and saying like, Hey, these are voters that may not be engaged by either candidate and would be a real benefit for you to jump on and, and, and kind of influence.
I think that that's fascinating. So what really is popping to me is that, you know, it doesn't matter where you are in your career, like good ideas come from everywhere. And, you know, a lot of people say that, and I believe that for some time, but you know, I think it's really important that no matter where you are, And what level you are, like, whether, you know, um, your demographic, your background, like, you know, you bring a perspective.
And for people to remember that, and then, you know, if you have an idea, like, share it. Because you might end up doing something that is getting national attention. You know, you might end up doing something that unlocks an area of opportunity that someone of, you know, like me, um, would never see, or never know, or never even understand is going on.
And so to me, what's popping is like how technology and the speed at which things move now is making, um, for relevant input from a lot of different people within the marketing community in ways that was not the case back when, you know, DC and I started and we had 30 seconds of TV commercials with no break and, you know, now we've got four seconds with no sound on social, right?
It's been a long way, and remembering that those people that are, you know, plugged into those communities a lot better than we are, um, can, can provide us with a lot of value and give us something that we don't know, I think it's, it's really cool. That's what's popping.
DC: You, you're, you're in Larry's wheelhouse right now, Jay Breezy.
Larry, please, brother, please.
LT: Well, I'm gonna, I think that's really cool, by the way, and it is amazing how quickly things happen. I'm actually going to take this in a much more meta place, D, um, in that,
you know, to Jay Breezy's point, I wrestled with, sometimes our society wants to throw out folks who are older, um, and you know, and President Biden has lost his fastball.
Again, this isn't political. He just has, right? Um, and at the same time, he still has, Some things that, you know, are, are certainly the man's experienced a whole lot. Right. Um, and then, so sometimes we get sort of too youth focused, but then sometimes the people who are sort of in control, maybe are, uh, in their thirties and forties and want to keep youth down to Jay Breezy's point.
Like there's all kinds of like the TikTok community for, for Kamala is just blowing up. It's blown up because and people, young people are just doing that because they feel it right and it's authentic and genuine and to Jay Breezy's point. There's nobody sitting in either Washington or Wilmington, Delaware, that saying, oh, let's make that happen.
It's authentic. Right? Um, and so, um, What I would like to say from, to build on Jay Breezy's What's Poppin is, in different situations, let's hear everyone, and sometimes the older folks might have some real great wisdom to impart on us, because they've seen things cycle through that I think younger folks have never seen before, and would be wise to counsel.
Conversely, because younger folks are, like, again, obviously, it's the obvious, the TikTok and the Instagrams, which are, which are really the dominant media forms today in 2024. We might in 2026, they might be irrelevant. Like that's how, that's Jay Breezy's point too, how quickly things move, right? And so let's also honor the folks who are younger, who are completely embedded and into Into those specific tactics, their media tactics, right?
And we all have a lot to learn from one another. That's what I would like to build them. And let, and let's honor that. That's what, uh, what I'd like to impart.
DC: Go LT and J Breezy. I'm going to make this a brand point. I don't care what side you happen to be on, or if you're in the middle. What's clear to me is we've got a brand versus product situation happening here, politically.
And one party, there is a person whom you can argue is the greatest brand manager to have ever occupied The White House. You mentioned Kamala. Um, let's forget whether you like the product or not. The brand is unassailable. We all know what the brand stands for with, uh, which you mentioned Jay Breezy she's had a transition before, uh, the last 72 hours.
I think the American public had some idea of what her product was, the function of the vice president, the duties of a vice president. I think now she is evolving to communicate and establish her brand. And it's going to be interesting to see how a brand that is in the throes of establishing does in competition with a brand that is ensconced and well established that that's fascinating to me purely on a marketing and branding level.
So that's what that that's what's popping with me.
Josh Ball: Yeah. And I, I think that what fascinates me about this is just like watching her and whatever that team is, like you said, like no matter what, where you are, it's interesting because they're identifying opportunities and like, you know, how are those being identified while they're being identified by people who are plugged into certain places.
And just because you're not plugged in there doesn't make it less relevant and being able to look at that opportunity and say, well, should we do this? Right? And that's where the collaboration layer is talking about to be really coming apart. Like, you know, does this make sense or does this not make sense?
Is this good or is this bad for us? Like, and, um, I agree with you too, DC I mean, like, this is going to be fascinating to watch this brand evolve because it's Considering the time frame that they have, like, there's not going to be much chance for them to miss on stuff. So, and they're not taking chances, I think.
Um, right. So anyway, I think the whole thing is going to be fascinating to watch them both.
LT: But styles make fights, too. You know, that's what happens in, in, in, in boxing, right? Styles make fights. And so when, with President Biden dropping out and Kamala Harris coming in, it automatically changes the perception.
Of the, uh, the 45th president's brand as well, because now he's in a different fight, so to speak, right?
Josh Ball: Yeah, that's a great point.
LT: And so, so that's all going to be really interesting in the brand life cycles of it all. It's really going to be very fascinating to watch.
Josh Ball: Personal brand started there. Now we're back.
LT: All right, D. Should we, uh, should we hit the close? Let do it. All right. Jay Breezy, man. Again, our. Our, our podcasts that feel like they go, it feels like 10 minutes long are the best. They do. It just felt like for me. I can't believe we're here at the end because we, you are awesome, dude. Um, just incredible, great learnings.
I have a bunch, um, so I'm going to call them down to seven quick ones. Number one, uh, follow Jay Breezy's lead and figure out how to read the rooms you are in, Brand Nerds. Um, there's actually nothing more important. And as he said, the heart of that is really figuring out people's motives and intentions.
And it's important for you to sit back then and not talk, listen and watch and learn before you jump in. So that's number one. Um, I love this one. Number two, Jay Breezy said that, uh, he'd like to practice proactive service. Guess what, Brand Nerds? Whether you're on an agency side, whether you're a client side, whatever job you're in, if you can do things proactively for the people that are your colleagues and or that you work for, that's going to go a long way.
That's number two. Uh, number three, the best brand communications are simple. Ike Miller High Life, It's Miller time. That is simple. Those are the best. That's what we should all strive for. The simpler, the better. That's number four. I mean, number three, number four. Now the North star Brand Nerds is to focus on what is best for the business that should become, that should be first and foremost, what's best for the business.
And don't concern yourself with whether you are right or wrong. Sometimes you'll be right, sometimes you'll be wrong, but make sure you're seeing it from other people's point of views as well. But again, what's best for the business? Number five, understand the line between healthy and unhealthy tension.
And if it goes to unhealthy, you gotta figure out how to fix it. Number six, failure is not an end point. Jay Breezy said that, it's wonderful. It is not what you are, it could be the situation. It's up to you to figure it out and what the learning is from it. And the last one Love this with, uh, the last question to Jay Brizzi, what is he, what is he most proud of?
Man, self evaluation is incredible. So, self evaluation leads you to the road of self actualization. And guess what, Brand Nerds, there's the tangible goals and all those other things, they'll take care of themselves if you're focused on self evaluation and self actualization. Those are mine.
DC: Those are good, Larry. Jay Breezy, at the end, the attempt that I make in every podcast, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, is to articulate who I believe is the essence of the person before us. What I believe is this unique gift that they have been given, that they share with the world, and that we as the world get, uh, get to benefit from.
It's easier for me when I don't know the people. It's, it's, it's much easier for me, Jay breezy. Yeah, it's much more difficult when I know the people because I know the people and this time, um, I've learned something about you that I kind of knew, but didn't fully understand. And I am going to walk through based on this framework that I have of.
What it is, I think, that Jay Breezy is bringing that very few people, if any, can bring the way you do it. And the construct is what, how, and why. So the what, uh, is what Larry said and what I said up front is, uh, is reading the room. You have an innate ability to read the room and the moments. That is what Jay Breezy can do that not many people can do.
The how. I knew one how, which is your ability to ask the right questions of yourself, process that, do computations and permutations, uh, mentally, to then have you arrive at a place where you can go, Ah, this is what's happening in this room or in this moment. What I didn't understand is your second how, this is the more evolved how of you, is surrounding yourself with people whom you trust and that they trust you, so that they, too, Can give you insights that allow you to read the room and to read a moment.
So that's the, how you do it. It's the, it's the Jay Breezy", your mind, and then this collective mind of the team. And now we get to the why, and you said to yourself, as you evolve to this team dynamic and having folks around you that you trust and who trust you, you said, Hey, you were in a bit of a rut. And you said, I couldn't see.
So that's just because I was in a rut. Now, you can see and that's been a while now that you could see but I thought it was interesting that you use the word. So I'm going to give a quote, and then I'll end with, um, who I believe you are when you're operating at your best in our world. Here's the quote.
"Just because a man lacks the use of his eyes, doesn't mean he lacks vision." Just because a man lacks the use of his eyes, doesn't mean he lacks vision. I'm from Detroit, and that's a quote from Stevie Wonder, who grew up in Detroit. What Stevie is saying in this quote and what he's done musically is he has communicated to us in the world I don't need to see the notes you do you might need to see the notes.
I don't need to see the notes I can feel the notes I can feel where the notes in the song is going, where the puck is going rather than where the puck is. This is Stevie's gift. He can create expressions and orchestral and soul and R& B and funk music in some ways better than those who can physically see because in his blindness there is vision.
And I think the same can be said for you, brother. Is your ability to see things read a room has nothing to do with the actual use of your eyes. It has to do with your feeling. Where is this going? The thinking that's happening behind your eyes. What, what, what, what's, what's the brief? Who's briefed this person and what did they brief them?
So I believe, Jay Breezy, in conclusion, that you are the Stevie Wonder of Marketing, okay? Yep, I believe you're the Stevie Wonder of marketing, brother. You can, you can have these wonderful things created that other people can't see, because they're using their eyes. You use far more than your eyes, brother.
I think you are.
Josh Ball: I appreciate that. That's, that's some very high praise and, and, uh, makes me feel uncomfortable, but I need to be comfortable with that uncomfortability, you wallow in it a little bit. . Yeah, I will, I will. I think that, you know, it's just, it, it's, I I think that it's just because, um, there are just so many inputs that are out there and, and really, I, I mean, I don't have very many thoughts that come from me.
They are rearticulations of stuff that people have said to me, and I've just been open to try and receive those, you know, and, and then, you know, just matter of trying to recall and bring them out at the right times in order to make the right deductions or the right statements or whatever. Um, so it's, it's not me, it's just a matter of just having great people around me that, like you said, that, that I trust. And sometimes that's about building that trust. And, uh, being able to rely on them to help give you the guidance and put those pieces of a puzzle out there so it can start to be put together.
LT: Oh, man, that's cool.
DC: Beautiful, brother. Yeah, man.
Josh Ball: I really appreciate y'all having me on this podcast. This is fun.
I'm going to podcast a lot.
LT: Well, we, we loved having you. Yeah, any, uh, any closing thoughts you may have, uh, from the conversation that we, uh, we just had?
Josh Ball: No, I mean, I'll close with this. I know you guys, your, your listenership is often kind of folks that are trying to break into the, to the career. I would say, um, remember that, um, your network is the best way to find opportunities and finding opportunities is what really dictates success in life and any career you go into.
Right. So, you know, things like building up your network and leveraging your network, people want to help you. Um, you know, everybody remembers what it's like coming out of college or coming, you know, leaving one job and starting another or trying to find a spot in a new industry or whatnot. Everybody's been in a situation like that, no matter who they are, no matter how significant they might be.
And they want to help because they remember it. So, use your network, build your network, you'll find your opportunities with your network, um, versus just trying to do what everybody else is doing. That's, that's all we do at that.
LT: Nice. See, right? That's a mic drop.
DC: Awesome. Awesome.
LT: Uh, Brand Nerds, thanks for listening to Brands Beats and Bytes.
The executive producers are Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" cobbin, Larry Taman, Hailey Cobbin, Jade Tate, and Tom DiOro.
DC: The Podfather.
LT: That is he. And if you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share. And for those on Apple Podcasts, if you are so inclined, please subscribe. We love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.