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A Mayo Clinic podcast for laboratory professionals, physicians, and students, hosted by Justin Kreuter, M.D., assistant professor of laboratory medicine and pathology at Mayo Clinic, featuring educational topics and insightful takeaways to apply in your practice.
(bright upbeat music)
- This is "Lab Medicine Rounds,"
a curated podcast for physicians,
laboratory professionals, and students.
I'm your host, Justin Kreuter,
a Transfusion Medicine Pathologist
and Assistant Professor
of Laboratory Medicine
and Pathology at Mayo Clinic.
Today, we're rounding
with Dr. Shannon Strader,
a fellow in cellular therapy
at Mayo Clinic here in
Rochester, Minnesota,
talking about trailblazing
new connections in medicine.
Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Strader.
- Thank you so much for having me on.
- So we're talking about trailblazing
and we're talking about connections.
I introduced you as our
cellular therapy fellow.
What I didn't put in the introduction
is that you completed
your residency training
in physical medicine and rehabilitation.
Maybe to kick off this podcast,
can you kind of share your
story with our listeners
of how you connected the dots
between physical medicine
and rehab and cellular therapy?
- That's just a wonderful question.
So I think to start, I'll
start by describing PM&R,
and then what a physiatrist
or PM&R doctor does.
To make it more complicated, in PM&R,
we have so many different
names that we call ourselves,
but physical medicine
rehabilitation is a specialty
dedicated solely to maximizing
functional abilities
and quality of life for those
with any type of
neurological or MSK disorder.
So we care for a wide
range of individuals.
Sometimes we call
ourselves the zebra finder,
but we do focus on stroke,
spinal cord injury, brain injury,
cerebral palsy, spina
bifida, muscular dystrophy,
amputee medicine, and then
sports and pain medicine.
Because PM&R is fairly new
and a unique specialty,
I often get the question on
how I even found the specialty
in interviews for PM&R,
whether it's attending interview
or residency interview,
that's a common, common question,
and I always say it has all
to do with my twin sister.
My twin sister passed from
complications of cerebral palsy.
And so I truly don't
remember a time in my life
where I wasn't exposed
to both the positive
and negatives of medicine.
And so I became a
physiatrist or PM&R doctor
because of my twin sister.
However, connecting the
dots to cell therapy,
there's so much unmet need
in treating these patients.
There's not a lot of options,
and oftentimes, the procedures
and medications we can offer
are just maybe a temporary solution
with a lot of side effects.
So this led me to being very interested
in novel cell therapeutics.
Down my path, as I grew up
and in high school and in college,
I found Dr. James Thompson.
He is the father of stem cells.
He derived the first embryonic stem cell,
and then later created
induced pluripotent stem cells
alongside Dr. Yamanaka.
And so I emailed him when I
was in high school saying,
"Thank you for your work,"
and he offered a job as an
undergrad researcher at the time.
And so I'm forever thankful for that.
And working in his lab,
I just developed even more passion
for discovering innovation
and novel cell therapeutics.
And so I did have to
put that kind of passion
of cellular therapy and stem cell research
on the back burner
as I completed medical
school and residency,
there's so much I needed to
learn clinically, of course.
And then during my training,
it was during the pandemic,
so we were just trying not to drown
in clinical work at the time.
So now I'm very thankful
to be in my cell therapy fellowships
where I can connect all my dots together,
including PM&R and cell therapy.
I would say that I guess the
common conception is that,
or common thought is that cell therapy
relates mostly to oncology.
And I think that's true,
especially for the focus on
CAR-T therapies currently,
there's a lot of promise there
and so many new discoveries in that arena.
But I do think cell
therapy was made as a home
to innovate procedures and therapeutics
for patients that don't
otherwise have any options.
And so as a PM&R physician,
I think I fit perfectly in that realm.
- I really appreciate
you kind of highlighting
that aspect that you're
coming at cellular therapy.
Yeah, so even coming at cellular therapy
in really a new way,
you know, there certainly are some people
that might be interested,
but a lot of focus has
been on that neoplastic
or oncology background, as you say.
And so I really appreciate
that you're kind of
bringing it into a new area.
What's been those challenges and joys
of kind of working in the
lab medicine world now?
You've been a couple months
into your fellowship,
and it also sounds like you
have some prior lab experience,
but this might be the first time actually
in terms of clinically
working in the laboratory.
How have you found it?
- Well, I think it's so fascinating.
It's so stimulating.
Every day, there's just a new adventure
and the possibilities are endless.
There's a lot of hope in
this arena, which I love.
It's been wonderful to learn
how to create cellular products
from both a diagnostic standpoint
and a therapeutic standpoint.
And then, I guess the dream
goal is to biomanufacture
and make it on a scalable level
so that all facilities
and clinician scientists
could use such a product.
Interesting, I feel that
I can be more creative
while I'm in this fellowship
and in laboratory medicine,
even though laboratory medicine
is much more black and white
than I'd say a clinic
or inpatient setting,
there's a lot more gray.
I do feel like there's so
much more time to be able
to think about how you're going to analyze
a certain product or procedure.
And so it's very interesting
to see the different ways
of thinking and approaching solutions
versus clinic and lab medicine.
The challenge I would say is
educating the clinical world
on what's actually being
performed in the lab
and the innovation that is changing
the potential future
treatments and pathways.
I think we do, as
clinicians, get so tied up
in kind of the daily
pressures, rightly so,
of taking care of patients in front of us
and also providing the standard of care
that we have at this moment.
And then also the
pressures of documentation,
getting orders into the pharmacy,
and talking with insurance companies.
So we kind of sometimes aren't able
to use that creative part of our brain,
and think what could potentially we change
in the standard of care
and the processes that are happening.
And then another challenge I'm learning
is biomanufacturing a
product can be very difficult
and have its challenges in itself,
but that's the ultimate goal.
So everybody in potentially the world
has easy access to these products.
- Something you said
earlier in your answer,
you're talking about kind of
things being black and white
in laboratory medicine,
that's something that I find interesting,
'cause we often talk, we
sometimes get residents applying,
and when you talk to 'em about
why they chose pathology,
they a lot of times, will
talk about appreciating
that it's black and white.
And what's funny is, for
practicing pathologists,
I think most of us would sort of say,
"Oh, there is so much gray."
- So much gray. I can imagine.
- You know.
- Totally, yeah.
- Like, yes, we put it
in this diagnostic box,
but you know, these cases
could be challenging.
But to your point though,
where I certainly will concede the point
when you're talking about
manufacturing a process,
or, sorry, not a process,
when you're manufacturing a product,
you know, that often does have a lot more
of that black and white contrast
because of the manufacturing requirements.
- Exactly, like, all
the regulatory processes
being very strict with
the standard of practice
and your SOPs are so vital in that.
- When you're talking
about your creativity,
is that something that you've
been able to kind of tap into
throughout your life?
Is that something that as you were doing
your physical medicine
rehabilitation training,
like, because of your kind
of strengths in that area,
you were able to kinda continue
to think about cellular therapies,
as opposed to, I think,
for a lot of people,
as you're saying, you get busy with things
and people probably just think about,
"Okay, let me go and start working,
"hang up my shingles as as a physiatrist."
- 100%, yeah.
I think it also, it started
with my twin, especially,
is wanting to have more options,
have more answers, and there just wasn't.
And then unfortunately, 20 years plus,
and fast forward in my residency,
I realized a lot of things haven't changed
in the standard of care,
and that made me very frustrated.
And so as much as I would
go throughout my day-to-day
and offer potential
treatments or procedures
that are considered the standard
of care and what we do have
to provide to the patient
population I was working with,
there is still that big part
of myself that was like,
"Ugh, I hate this.
"I want to provide more, I
want there to be more options."
I want there at least
to be clinical trials
that I'm aware of
that's going on that I
could direct my patients to.
And so I think I've never lost that,
I guess, creative thought process,
but definitely had to put
that on the back burner
to focus on what I can do in that day
while that patient was
potentially hurting or suffering
or needing a different kind of direction
of medication and treatment.
- What's been your experience
for the level of knowledge
of cellular therapies
in the physical medicine
and rehab world?
Is this something that
people are aware of,
but are thinking about it like, well,
that's cancer treatment,
or like, is it something like, you know,
how could this construct
help us in physical medicine?
What's that like? What's
your experience been?
- Yeah, it's very
interesting you say that,
because I do think there's
kind of a clouded version
of what cell therapy even is.
But in PM&R, we use orthobiologics
daily for our patients.
And that's probably a
conversation in itself
of what that even entails,
but you could say that is
a cell therapy version,
because you are taking
cells from a patient
and essentially injecting
it back into the patient.
I do think there needs
to be a lot more studies
on orthobiologics and a lot
more regulatory processes,
which also is why I wanted
to complete this fellowship
so that I could bring back that
knowledge to the PM&R world
and say, "Hey guys, I think
we can do this better."
But also, I think
because PM&R is, I guess,
more focused on calling it orthobiologics,
they don't even consider
it a type of cell therapy.
And I think the education in
saying that this is a cell,
that these are cells that we are injecting
and understanding them better
is probably gonna help
our field a lot more.
I will say, as far as
like, MSC type cells,
that has been-
- When you say MSC,
I'm sorry to interrupt, but-
- Yeah.
- What does that mean for our listeners?
- Oh, yeah, mesenchymal or
stromal cells or stem cells,
there's a debate on whether
you should call them stromal
or stem cells,
but they're finding more and
more these types of cells
help with anti-inflammatory mechanisms,
help with potentially
proteins and growth factors
and signaling for certain cells
to help with injury or disease.
And so the MSCs in PM&R
world have been used for,
I think over a decade now
in certain clinical trials.
There's some promise there still,
but I think that has been challenging
to translate it as a standard of care
of treatment for our patients.
But that has been a constant
conversation, I think,
in the PM&R world.
- You know, I'm always
looking for the tagline
for this podcast, is, you know,
encouraging people to continue
to connect lab medicine
in the clinical practice.
And you know, I'm kind of
struck by, as I hear you,
as you've connected these
dots, how, you know,
really, it's been
disparate expertise, right?
We have some people that are
expert in cellular therapies,
we have some people that are expert
in physical medicine rehabilitation.
And because those are two
different knowledge sets,
like, the physiatrists don't
even know what's possible,
necessarily, on the cell therapy side.
Cell therapy people
probably don't even know
there's a maybe a clinical need
or an application.
- Oh, for sure. Yeah.
- And so this connection,
thinking about this connection,
knowing that, you know,
you're somebody who
enjoys laboratory medicine
and working in these areas now,
but you've certainly have
worked in the clinical practice
for a number of years.
Everyone's super busy.
What ways can, you know,
laboratory professionals reach out
and build relationships
with clinical colleagues?
A lot of times when I have clinicians on,
I kind of tell them they should
definitely pick up the phone
and call the lab.
How can lab reach out to
the clinical colleagues?
- Well, I think you're doing
a wonderful job, first off,
by creating and leading this podcast.
I think social media,
for better or for worse,
is kind of the future for young trainees
to learn in a lot of different ways.
And so using social media tools,
I definitely think help and will help,
continue to help close
that communication gap.
I do think laboratory professionals
are kind of the unicorns of medicine.
You guys have the 360
view of what's going on
and streamlining processes
to even get to a patient.
And most of what you guys are developing
as far as products to be used
for patients are lifesaving.
And so you guys kinda have this overview
of both clinically and what's
going on in the laboratory,
which I think is so vital
to promote to the clinicians
that may not truly
understand what's going on
in that world.
I do feel like when somebody is talking
about bone marrow
transplant or CAR-T therapy,
which is the most common
types of cell therapies
that I think are being
discussed out in the world,
they think more about
administrating it to the patient
and potentially curing
or treating that patient,
which is very exciting,
but personally, I think the coolest part
is actually creating the product itself,
which is what you guys do and perform.
And then without creating that product,
there'd be absolutely
no treatment or option.
And so getting the word
out about that is, I think,
just as is important
as as these treatments
and the patients benefiting from them.
- Wow, that's a perfect
lead-in to my final question,
which is, now you're talking
about getting these products out.
What does the future of PM&R look like
with cellular therapies in the toolbox?
- Yeah, well, I hope I can
recruit some other PM&R docs
to be excited about cell therapy
and want to be educated
and understand it more.
But there are thousands of
both cell and gene therapies
being produced in clinical
trials at this time,
and over half are not for
cancer-related disorders
at this time,
most of which are MSK or neuro-related.
And so I think that
the next biggest hurdle
is addressing these treatments
that are coming in the pipeline
for education and training
in residencies and fellows,
and who takes ownership
of that as a clinician
and understanding these.
And then my dream is for PM&R
to combine forces with
neurology and cellular therapy
to create more of a holistic approach
in streamlining these novel therapeutics.
I don't think we can do this alone
or isolated from each other.
I think these therapies are very complex
and they require a lot of
different expertise and education.
And so I hope that we all
kind of get together as a team
in our expertise.
But my personal goal is to
investigate cellular products
related to abnormal muscular pathology
for both diagnostic and
therapeutic reasons.
Most recently, I've become very
obsessed with nanoparticles
and nanomedicine for delivery of therapy.
So we'll see if I can
make something happen
in these next couple years.
- We've been rounding
with Dr. Shannon Strader,
talking about creating new
connections in medicine.
Thanks for taking the time
to talk about this with us.
- Thank you so much for having
me, I really appreciate it.
- And to all of our listeners,
thank you for joining us today.
We invite you to share your thoughts
and suggestions via email
to mcleducation@mayo.edu.
If you've enjoyed this
podcast, please subscribe,
and until our next rounds together,
we encourage you to continue
to connect lab medicine
in the clinical practice through
educational conversations.
(bright upbeat music)