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[00:00:00] Announcer: This is the Build A Vibrant Culture Podcast, your source for the strategies, systems, and smarts you need to turn possibility into purpose. Every week we dive into dynamic conversations as our host, Nicole Greer, interviews leadership and business experts. They're here to shed light on practical solutions to the challenges of personal and professional development. Now, here's your host, a professional speaker, coach and consultant, Nicole Greer.
[00:00:33] Nicole Greer: Welcome everybody to the Build A Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer and they call me The Vibrant Coach. And I've got another, yes, another amazing, vibrant guest on the show today. Let me introduce you to Dr. Jaime Goff. She is the author of _The Secure Leader_ and look what she sent me in the mail, hot off the Press, uh, a brand new book that helps leaders embrace authenticity, purpose and inner clarity at work, and don't you want that? Yes. She is the founder of the Empathetic Leader, LLC, where she specializes in helping leaders unlock their full potential through executive coaching, insightful workshops and thought provoking keynotes. With her unique blend of expertise in psychology and leadership development, Jaime helps individuals and teams navigate their toughest challenges, build this amazing thing we all need in this wild, wonderful world, which is resilience, and help everybody have transformative growth. So welcome to the show, Jaime. I'm delighted you're here!
[00:01:33] Dr. Jaime Goff: Thank you for having me, Nicole. I'm excited to be here.
[00:01:36] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. And so, this book, _The Secure Leader_, first of all, beautiful color. I mean like, I love it. But the subtitle is really important though. It says, "Discover the Hidden Forces That Shape Your Leadership Story and How to Change Them."
[00:01:51] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yes.
[00:01:51] Nicole Greer: So as I began reading the book, it talks a lot about how humans love stories.
[00:01:58] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:59] Nicole Greer: And how we are telling ourselves stories all the time. Yes. So, will you kind of tee us up about why you focused on story?
[00:02:06] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I just think story is a really relatable metaphor for people. And so, you know, we can talk about neural pathways or you know, like,
[00:02:19] Nicole Greer: Oh, let's do it. I love neural pathway talk. Let's do it.
[00:02:21] Dr. Jaime Goff: But yeah. So
[00:02:22]
[00:02:22] Dr. Jaime Goff: neural pathways stories you know, I'm just kind of using stories to describe, you know, our, our neural pathways, because often those pathways are formed and really embedded in our brains based on the stories that we tell ourselves and, you know, over and over and over again.
[00:02:39] And as, as humans, that's how we make sense of the world. We make sense of our experiences and of the world. We assign meaning and we tell stories to ourselves and to others about what's happening around us to explain what we're seeing. And so yeah, so that's kind of why story. And I think that many of us have kind of background scripts, if you will, you know, running in our brains and in our mind all the time.
[00:03:07] The challenge is that sometimes we're not aware of what those scripts are that are being played. And because we're not aware, then we don't understand how those scripts and stories might be impacting how we're showing up in the world. And for me specifically, as leaders.
[00:03:24] Nicole Greer: Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah. And here's the thing about becoming a leader. It's messy. And so all, all, so, all these things happen to you as you're learning to be a leader. And I don't know what your story is, Jaime, maybe you could share, but like t he first time I got promoted to be in charge of people, I was like, really young. They're like, listen, you be in charge. And I'm like, okay. You know, I mean, and that was the end of it. And of course I made mistakes and frustrated people I'm sure. But I was trying my hardest. I do think so. Yeah. But like all that stuff kind of adds up.
[00:03:58] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:58] Nicole Greer: And creates those neural passageways, is that what you're talking about?
[00:04:01] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And same experience for me. And, you know, I became a leader in what, so I was in higher education in a university setting and
[00:04:10] Nicole Greer: Nice.
[00:04:10] Dr. Jaime Goff: On the academic side of things. And I think I was, I have to think back on this. I think I may have been 30? Maybe? 30 or 31 when I was asked to step into the role of department chair.
[00:04:24] Nicole Greer: Whoa.
[00:04:25] Dr. Jaime Goff: I think it was, I mean. Hopefully someone saw something in me, but it was a
[00:04:29] Nicole Greer: Oh, of course talent, skill...
[00:04:30] Dr. Jaime Goff: That was the only option, right? Like I was the only option, let's be honest.
[00:04:33] Nicole Greer: Oh, there's her story. Don't miss that.
[00:04:36] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah, there you go. Back then. Now like, I'm like, oh no, yeah, I had it.
[00:04:39] Nicole Greer: That's right.
[00:04:40] Dr. Jaime Goff: Um, but and you know, no training, there's no real leadership training, or at least there wasn't back then. Not in higher education especially. And I just remember, like that was really, it is a challenging transition. And one of the things that really kind of brought this awareness of, oh, something's going on in terms of what I'm telling myself, um, that might not be the most helpful, is I had for the first time, of course, you know, an executive assistant.
[00:05:09] Nicole Greer: Nice.
[00:05:09] Dr. Jaime Goff: And, you know, I had never, I had never had someone to help me with those types of administrative tasks before, and I did not let her do anything. I was so controlling, right? Like I held very tightly to my calendar. I wouldn't share it with her. I like, I just could not let go of those things. And finally one day, you know, and I'm so grateful to her, because she said to me, "Jaime. You have to let me do my job." And it just hit me because I don't even think, I didn't even realize what I was doing, but I was preventing her from actually doing the job that she'd been hired to do because I was telling myself a story that, that was really driven by my inability, honestly, to kind of trust other people.
[00:06:03] Um, and thinking that I was the only one who was like, really capable and that I had to do everything myself. And that was not helpful, uh, to me as a leader. And so that was kind of the first realization I had in my own life where I was so grateful that someone had the courage to say that to me and helped me to see a story that I was telling myself that I needed to, to rewrite.
[00:06:27] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And uh, and what goes along with stories like that is like, nobody will do it as good as me. Or they might make a mistake and then people get mad. I mean, like, like, like there's one story and then there's like 17 stories that go on,
[00:06:40] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:06:41] Nicole Greer: that go on after it. Yeah, yeah. But but you also say in chapter one, good News, there's this thing called neuroplasticity.
[00:06:48] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yes. Yes. That's right. Exactly.
[00:06:50] Nicole Greer: Well, will you tell us about the good news of neuroplasticity?
[00:06:54] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah, absolutely. You know, our brains are always making new connections, new neural connections, disconnecting neural connections. And so thank God. Right? I remember honestly, when I was back in college, a psychology student like way back in the nineties, that at that time there was still the belief pretty much that your brain was set in stone. Right? By the time you were about 25 years old. Which would've been terrible.
[00:07:20] Nicole Greer: Oh my gosh. Really. For real.
[00:07:22] Dr. Jaime Goff: I'm glad that's not
[00:07:23] Nicole Greer: Yeah, I like my 59-year-old brain better than my 25-year-old brain.
[00:07:26] Dr. Jaime Goff: Exactly. Exactly. Thankfully we now know that that is not the case and that our brains are neuroplastic and so we always have the ability to rewrite those scripts, rewire our neural pathways. We don't have to just blindly follow those patterns that have been embedded. And so, yeah, such, such good news that there are things we can do to rewire ourselves.
[00:07:49] Nicole Greer: Yeah, that's good.
[00:07:50] Announcer: Are you ready to build your vibrant culture? Bring Nicole Greer to speak to your leadership team, conference or organization to help them with their strategies, systems, and smarts to increase clarity, accountability, energy, and results. Your organization will get LIT from within! Email her at nicole@vibrantculture.com and be sure to check out Nicole's TEDx talk at vibrantculture.com.
[00:08:19] Nicole Greer: So that is so crazy, Jaime. 'cause this morning I was just having a, a conversation with somebody and they were telling themselves a story. And I think this is a good demonstration for our listeners here and our watchers. This person said, well, I'm going to go into that meeting and they're going to tear me apart. And I was like, really? Tear you apart? You know?
[00:08:40] Dr. Jaime Goff: Like limb from limb.
[00:08:41] Nicole Greer: Right, right. And, then, then I was like, oh, she needs a coach, so I'm going to ask her powerful questions right here. I'm like, what makes that a possibility? What are you going to tell them in the meeting? You know? Like I was like asking her powerful questions and she's like, well, I'm just scared. The name of Jaime's book don't miss everybody is _The Secure Leader_. I mean, like she's protecting herself before anything has ever happened. I mean, that's the kind of stuff we're talking about here, right?
[00:09:10] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. No, exactly. Exactly. And the thing with these stories that we tell ourselves is that like, as I talk about in the book. Many of those are developed very early on in our lives, in early childhood even, based on interactions that we have with our caregivers. And then of course, you know, it's also based on interactions we have with other people throughout our lives. But the messages that we pick up and hear and really download into our brains when we're very young, are incredibly powerful and typically that type of story of, oh, they're going to tear me up in this meeting. And like you mentioned, it's based out of fear and it's self-protective.
[00:09:54] When we're young, those stories sometimes make sense and then the behaviors that flow out of them, because they are protective and they might, for some people, be how they survive in their particular environment or in their context. When we're small and we don't really have the same type of cognitive capacity to really think through the situation and what's happening. And so it makes sense that those are the types of things we tell ourselves and then, you know, behave in a certain way based on that. But there comes a point at which if you're not aware that that is simply a story, it becomes a barrier.
[00:10:33] Nicole Greer: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:34] Dr. Jaime Goff: And it's no longer useful. There comes a point at which some of those stories are no longer useful to us, and in order to really flourish ourselves, as individuals, and to help our teams flourish, we need to start changing the stories that we're telling ourselves.
[00:10:49] Nicole Greer: Right, right. And I just want to read this little part of the book. It's on page 11 and the chapter's called "Your Brain Needs a Story." Okay, so your brain loves stories, like Jaime said, the neural passageways, the connections in your brain. "But with this book, the goal is to embrace option one, making a commitment to update your predictions." So instead of that gal thinking, they're going to tear me apart, she could say, they're going to love what I'm going to show them. You know, she could choose-
[00:11:17] Dr. Jaime Goff: Exactly.
[00:11:17] Nicole Greer: -a different frame, a different story, and Jaime says, "As you work through these exercises." So that's the other thing I love about your book is that it's not just telling me stuff. It's like here. Think about this, do this, fill this out. Right? And
[00:11:30] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm, yeah.
[00:11:30] Nicole Greer: So I think that's really important. And if you do that, Jaime claims, "We're going to help you get a deeper understanding of your own story and all the emotions and thoughts and behaviors that come along with it. You'll develop more space in your story for challenges, stress, and ambiguity...." and I do want to talk about ambiguity for a second. " ...Gain more clarity, experience newfound joy..." How many of y'all would like to be happier? "...and be able to achieve a highly desirable business outcome." And that business outcome just might be your promotion, your future, your career path, right? All those things. So, I think it's important that people do this work, that they examine their stories.
[00:12:06] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because yeah, without examining them, they are very powerful and you're just living according to a story that, like I said a minute ago, may not be useful to you at all. It may actually be hurting you.
[00:12:20] Nicole Greer: Absolutely. Yeah. And so, you say in there that it'll develop more space in your story for challenges, stress and ambiguity. The reason why I wanted to kind of poke on that word ambiguity, 'cause first of all it's fun to say ambiguity. And so ambiguity means like the unknown, right? And I do a lot of change management work with people, and I bet you do too, Jaime. And people just really don't like not to know.
[00:12:45] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's true.
[00:12:48] Nicole Greer: And that's a big, that's a big stumbling block. And I have this assessment that I have people take, and one of the parts of it is about how do you deal with ambiguity? And people just do terrible. They rank themselves so low, they're like, no, I must know what's going on. You know, there's a lot of fear around not knowing.
[00:13:06] So when people are thinking about examining their stories. They're like, do I want to know what my stories are? They might not want to know, but they want to know. So what are your thoughts about ambiguity and these stories?
[00:13:21] Dr. Jaime Goff: You know, I think we really don't have any choice at this point in the world, but to face ambiguity, and many of us have stories. I have been one of them where a big part of my story in the past has been about control. And you know, what I have learned is that the tighter I hold onto things and the more I think I have to control everything, actually, the less successful I am, the less happy I am, the less adaptable and flexible I am the less able to be authentic and really connect with other people I am.
[00:14:01] And that desire for control is prevalent, right? So many people struggle with that, but it's so harmful too. I mean, yes, we have agency, right? And we want to feel like as we make choices in our lives, that we have some agency to do that, but trying to control all of these external factors, right? Like we can't. It's like get used to it, right? Like we are in a world and the pace of our world is so fast that you really have no choice but to get better at being comfortable with ambiguity and letting go of things you can't control.
[00:14:37] Nicole Greer: That's right. That's right. And I, and the work that I've done in the past is like some people love that control, right? And which I'm with you. I like control too, Jaime. I'm just saying. So control.
[00:14:48] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:49] Nicole Greer: But then there's also like this deep, deep seated need for approval.
[00:14:54] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yes.
[00:14:54] Nicole Greer: Like I gotta get an A or like, just security in general. I have to be safe, right?
[00:15:00] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yep. Yeah.
[00:15:01] Nicole Greer: And then achievement, I've got to be number one. So I find that people have these kind of things that they're, sometimes I even say like we're addicted to it, we've got to let go of it. Right? Okay.
[00:15:11] Dr. Jaime Goff: Absolutely.
[00:15:12] Nicole Greer: So you say in chapter two, "From the Cradle to the Boardroom," you say, "There are two fundamental questions that we need to ask ourselves that help us let go..." of this need for control or whatever. " Am I worthy of compassion, dignity, love and respect? I love that so much. Why is it so important to get your head wrapped around that?
[00:15:33] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. There are two fundamental questions in that, and I think that's one of them that we begin asking ourselves unconsciously, of course, and writing a story to answer that question from the time we like come into this world as infants. And that one is so incredibly important because, like you mentioned striving for approval, if you don't have a sense that you are simply because you are a human being, that you are not valuable and that you're not worthy and you don't deserve to be treated with dignity, then that can wreak havoc in so many ways. Because again, you're always going to be seeking approval, looking for validation from other people and being driven by that because we all want that. Every single one of us, we want to be seen as worthy. But it needs to, fundamentally, at some point in our lives, come from inside of us.
[00:16:33] So I think, in leadership, what you see if someone is answering that question in a negative, like, no, I really, I don't see myself as worthy. Then what you end up getting is someone who just wants everyone to like them. Is a huge people pleaser surrounds themselves with yes people, right? Because they want that affirmation. They want to be seen as the fun leader. But they also want all of the credit for the good things that happen or for the successes. So they can have a hard time sharing success with their team or giving credit where it's due, because they are looking for approval so much that they are going to claim that for themselves when the time comes. And they're really driven by that. So in leadership, that can be really catastrophic.
[00:17:20] Nicole Greer: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. Okay. And then the second fundamental question, you know, one is about myself, am I worthy? Gotta get your head in the game around that. But then also, are other people trustworthy? So we just used my example of the gal from this morning. They're going to rip me apart. It's like, well, apparently people are not trustworthy. Right.
[00:17:41] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. Yep.
[00:17:42] Nicole Greer: And these people are not going to rip her apart.
[00:17:44] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:44] Nicole Greer: But anyway.
[00:17:45] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, think about that in leadership, right? If you start from a place where you just fundamentally distrust other people, then how effective are you going to be at delegating or empowering others at really growing and developing your team? You're probably not going to do a great job with that because the core beliefs around that question, if you're answering that in the negative, they're often things like, I can only count on me. I'm the only person that can do anything right. Right. Like I'm the only one I can count on to get this done. And so that also can be really challenging in leadership.
[00:18:23] Nicole Greer: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Okay. So at the base of this, but you straighten me out if I don't have it right, is this idea that you can be a secure leader and that you have either a secure attachment story or an insecure anxious avoidant attachment story and that comes from the nature of your experiences with your caregivers and you kind of fall into one of these two sides. Is that correct?
[00:18:48] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. Yeah. So it's like the secure attachment story. And then there are two types of insecure, the anxious and the avoidant. So yeah, three kind of different styles, if you will, or stories. Mm-hmm.
[00:18:59] Nicole Greer: Okay. Alright, so the secure attachment story, talk a little bit about that. 'cause that's where we want live, right? We want to be a secure leader. Talk about that.
[00:19:06] Dr. Jaime Goff: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I talk about in the book where, you know, these kind of develop early on in our lives initially, and those of us who have a secure attachment story, had parents who were good enough. And I say good enough very intentionally because there is no caregiver in the world who is perfect. Right?
[00:19:27] Nicole Greer: That's exactly right.
[00:19:29] Dr. Jaime Goff: So, but generally speaking, we had the privilege of growing up in an environments where our caregivers were responsive to our needs. They sent us, you know, positive messages about like how they valued us and cared for us. And so, in answer to those two questions, we answer them both yes. Like other people love and care about me, therefore I'm worthy. So you kind of develop that belief very early on. And also because people are meeting my needs, I'm being fed when I'm hungry or when I get upset or I fall down and I hurt myself, someone comes and cares for me. I can trust other people to take care of me when I need something from them. Right? And so then as leaders, we take that type of kind of security and that confidence into our leadership roles. And so these are the leaders who are able to effectively develop and grow their team members. They're able to kind of let go of a little bit of control so that other people can learn, make their own mistakes, right? They're able to cultivate those environments of psychological safety that we talk about so much. They can receive feedback, they admit their own mistakes and don't have a problem saying like, oh, I'm wrong, or I messed up here. Right? So those are secure leaders. And that's, you know, how we want to be. And those are the types of leaders under which other people flourish.
[00:20:51] Nicole Greer: Yeah.
[00:20:52] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah.
[00:20:52] Nicole Greer: Okay. And so I, I just want to say... that's so rich. So I just want to repeat the two questions because I think they're absolutely important. So, if you already believe, "I am worthy of compassion, dignity, love and respect, and others are trustworthy." If you're there, first of all, you're lucky, you're blessed, I would say, right?
[00:21:11] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah.
[00:21:11] Nicole Greer: Yeah.
[00:21:12] And so, you're not all that concerned with every little situation. The fear is out. It's like, we know that this life is messy and work is messy and we're just going to get in here and get her done. All right. Now we've got folks that maybe weren't blessed, didn't get this.
[00:21:27] Dr. Jaime Goff: Right, right. Yeah.
[00:21:28] Nicole Greer: So they have the two insecure and so one is Anxious Insecure, and one is Avoidant Insecure. Will you talk about those two?
[00:21:40] Dr. Jaime Goff: Absolutely. So, for the insecure anxious, those are situations where people that have that style tend to grow up in more chaotic environments. Where many times their needs aren't met. You know, so someone doesn't come when they fall or they hurt themselves or they're hungry, whatever it might be. Sometimes those needs are met and responded to, but they can't figure out like, what works to get the attention I'm needing and wanting and what doesn't work. So it's very confusing especially if you're a small child, that can be really confusing. And then often when people do respond, like a caregiver does respond, it's inappropriate. And by inappropriate I mean that it might be very critical and judgemental. Right? So like a yelling or screaming type of response or like overly affectionate. Like if you ever see like someone and you can just tell a kid is uncomfortable with someone who's like, right? Because they're not used to it and they don't know what this, because it's like an inappropriate level of affection, like over the top right.
[00:22:45] And so basically, along the lines of those two questions, with that first one, they really start to question their own value and their own worth, because it's like, there must be something wrong with me. Like, what's wrong with me? That...
[00:22:58] Nicole Greer: This person's yelling and screaming. Right?,
[00:22:59] Dr. Jaime Goff: Or things are so chaotic, right? So what's wrong with me? And then what do I need to do to make myself, you know, louder, more expressive, whatever it might be just to be seen. Right? And so then later on in life, step into a leadership role. Again, this is where like the approval seeking really, like we talked about a couple minutes ago, really comes into play. So that's the insecure anxious.
[00:23:24] And then on the other side of the continuum is insecure, avoidant. And so, those are people who grow up in environments where their needs really just aren't met or kind of ignored, right? So no one ever comes. Like, it's not confusing. They know no one's going to come. I have to take care of myself for whatever reason. Like, I've gotta take care of myself as a kid. I'm on my own. I have to learn to rely on myself, pull myself up by my own bootstraps, if you will. And so what happens then is that those people, they often end up suppressing emotion a lot because it's about control, right? It doesn't do any good to show emotion because no one responds to it anyway. So I'm going to suppress emotion. I want to maintain control. These are often like those who become like real perfectionists. Overachievers, right? 'Cause like it's me. I can only count on myself. So then that's where in leadership you get the the behaviors where can't delegate to other people, can't let go of things, don't do a good job of developing and growing others. And also because of the perfectionism, have a really hard time admitting mistakes. So don't ever want someone to see like my own personal failure. So don't create a environment of psychological safety in their teams. So that's kinda in a nutshell. I do always want to say though, because this inevitably comes up and I do talk about it in a book. I'm talking about these categorically, right? So like three buckets or three styles, if you will. But it does exist on a continuum. And so no one, even for those of us who are mostly secure in the way that we show up, we still tend to slide on the continuum toward anxious or avoidant types of behaviors when we're under stress and when we're overwhelmed.
[00:25:17] So even a secure leader is not perfect, right? We all, yeah, we all still have triggers that we tend to want to control, or we tend to want to seek approval. So we still have a little bit of those tendencies, even if we're secure.
[00:25:32] Nicole Greer: That's right. That's right. And I love that you mentioned triggers because that's another kind of like story place, right? Where more stories come up or commentaries or whatever. It is like, you'll meet somebody and you'll work with somebody on a team. You're like, oh my God. They're just like my brother.
[00:25:48] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yes. Mm-hmm.
[00:25:49] Nicole Greer: I my brother. My brother's a jerk, you know? And so now this guy made one comment and he's toast.
[00:25:57] Dr. Jaime Goff: Right. Exactly. And as a leader, and I think I have a line in the book about that. Like, as a leader, you, you make a judgment about someone. You never give them a chance. Because you're basing your judgment of them on like maybe one small interaction with them. But it's really based on all of these interactions with other people that remind you of something you know that didn't go well or that you know, really bothers you or is a trigger, so
[00:26:23] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. And, there's that thing of a first impression, you know because that first impression has your story in it. I bet.
[00:26:30] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yes it does.
[00:26:32] Nicole Greer: Yeah. You know, so all sorts of things are going on there and, and many of you listeners have heard me say this before, but I have this really wise woman in my life, Jaime, her name's Ann Starette. And I will say something that has a story in it and, and she's really helped me get secure. But she has said, Nicole, you don't know. That's one of the best things. Like I'll be like talking and she's
[00:26:55] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:55] Nicole Greer: No, you don't know. So I think everybody needs like little Ann Starette your shoulder. You
[00:27:02] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. You don't know.
[00:27:04] Nicole Greer: That's right. That's right. Okay. All right. So chapter five, you have a Harry Potter quote, which of course, everybody's leaning in now. What does it say? All right, so it's called the Secure Attachment Story. It says, "Working hard is important, but there is something that matters even more: believing in yourself. Think of it this way. Every great wizard in history has started out as nothing more than what we are now, students. If they can do it, why not us?" Oh, so good. Yeah. So talk a little bit about why you picked that quote, and then let's get into how do I develop my secure attachment story?
[00:27:39] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah, yeah. In the book I use examples from pop culture to demonstrate each of those three stories. And I use Harry Potter as an example of a secure attachment story. And so again, I think that quote in particular just speaks to the idea of neuroplasticity, right? Like no one starts out in a perfect place. And well, we never become perfect either, but we all have the capability to, to grow, to challenge ourselves, to become more secure regardless of where we're starting from.
[00:28:13] Nicole Greer: Yeah, that's exactly right.
[00:28:13] Dr. Jaime Goff: And so I think that quote just really speaks to that.
[00:28:15] Nicole Greer: I do too. I do too. I love it. So, to get myself in a secure place, if I'm not, I'm insecure anxious, or insecure avoidant, and of course, don't miss what she said. You're sliding around on there, depending on what's
[00:28:28] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yes, yes, yes.
[00:28:29] Nicole Greer: How do we move ourselves forward? You know, you talk about brain development, a cognitive mindset. Emotional characteristics, so like those are three huge buckets, but those are places where I can pay attention. Yes?
[00:28:43] Dr. Jaime Goff: Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I talk about there are kind of three pathways, if you will, to becoming a more secure leader. One is to work on moving from dysregulation to regulation, and so that's all about regulating your own emotional experience, right? So that is like understanding, like we were talking about triggers a moment ago, understanding what your triggers are, where those come from. Being able to challenge your stories when you know, when they pop up, when you're in interaction with other people. Being attuned to your own emotional experience because I think many of us just go through life not really paying attention to what we're feeling. And when we don't pay attention to our emotions, they can really control us. So becoming more attuned to your own emotional experience. So that's all about learning to regulate yourself more effectively.
[00:29:35] The second area is moving from disconnection to connection. So really, I don't think you can be a secure leader in the absence of significant, intimate relationships. You just can't, because security requires both safety and risk because you can't really be secure if you never let people know who you are.
[00:29:59] Nicole Greer: Yeah, gotta put yourself out there as they say.
[00:30:02] Dr. Jaime Goff: You've gotta put yourself out there, and you have to experience what it's like for other people to accept you. Like,
[00:30:08] Nicole Greer: Warts and all!
[00:30:09] Dr. Jaime Goff: Warts and all, if you will. Yeah, exactly. Right. And you have to experience what that's like in order to really be secure. So in that particular chapter I talk about like what that looks like, but then also how do you cultivate deeper connections in the workplace. How do you have conversations with people and how do you attune to what other people are experiencing and feeling and how that helps us to become more secure. And then ultimately those two things are becoming more regulated. Establishing deeper connections with other people together then leads to a deeper sense of integration, identity integration, so that we kind of have this like wholeness within ourselves and as we rewrite a story where we're able to incorporate all the things right from our past, both positive and negative, and understand how they drive us, but not be a prisoner to those things. So it's the acknowledging that, yes, these things happened in my life, or these are experiences I've had. I value those, but I don't need to be blindly driven by them moving forward. So kind of integrating that all into kind of a new story of how you really want to show up into the world, a new story that you can tell yourself, especially when you're facing stress. And then it takes work to maintain it. It's not like you like kind of establish new neural pathways and they're just there. You have to consciously work to maintain maintain
[00:31:34] Nicole Greer: Yeah. So, when you're talking about these things, two or three things popped in my mind, but most significantly I worked with this county here in North Carolina and they have like this leadership program where they're going to bring key leaders in the the county together. They're going to do leadership development, but they're going to do a great project to support their county. So, long story short, Jaime. I was doing this exercise, which I absolutely love, which might actually go nicely with this. It's called Vibrant Identity. But at you write down, like in the cir one circle, everything that you got when you popped on the planet. Here's my story. Like this is all the stuff I got when I got here. And then the next circle I have them put in there the good choices I've made. And the reason why I don't explore the bad choices is because I'm trying to take people up the feeling scale as she's talking about, regulating up the feeling scale. Right, and people are amazed at the great choices they've made, you know, like every single choice, you're like, that was a good choice. And then in the middle I have them put like, who you are at the core. Well, long story short, I had this gentleman who worked for a CPA firm. He stood up there and like he's got on his loafers that have tassels and he's got a really nice crease down the front of his khakis. He's got on his blue shirt that, you know, probably would stand up on his own from the dry cleaner. And he gets up there and he starts telling us that he was born in a meth house.
[00:33:02] Dr. Jaime Goff: Hmm.
[00:33:02] Nicole Greer: And we were like, wait, what? But the thing about it was-- what you just said is from disintegration to integration? Yes? Is that.
[00:33:12] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:33:13] Nicole Greer: It's that he could be a hot mess himself, but he was like, I was surrounded by people on drugs my whole life and I just said, I'm never taking a drug, ever. And he's like, that doesn't mean y'all can't do what you want to do, but he's like, I don't want any part of it ever again. And so when he told this crazy story, like none of us could believe it based on that first impression. They're like, okay, we're going to do something related, you know, related drug prevention or something for our project. I mean, like you, you don't even know what your mess will do moving forward. Right?
[00:33:47] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I love that example too because it is someone who is like acknowledging, right, like not ashamed, not feeling like he has to hide it. And I think sometimes that's what, that's when you know that people don't have integration is when they are really ashamed, right, of like their past or where they came from. It's like, no, integration is about like acknowledging it and, and embracing that as part of your experience, but you can make, like you said, I can make different decisions, and I don't have to just follow along that story that started to be written for me, right? Like, I can make a different decision and choose a different path. And so I, I love that example.
[00:34:26] Nicole Greer: And he shared how like the way he would escape it, he would study. Because they're like, you know.
[00:34:32] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.
[00:34:33] Nicole Greer: Neither of his parents went to college. You know, he had a hundred stories about why it shouldn't work out for him, but he did such a great job. So, anyways, that popped in my mind.
[00:34:40] All right, now don't miss this, everybody on page 77 in chapter six, okay? She's got a quote from Viktor Frankl. All right, so first of all, everybody get a pen? Not only do you need to read _Secure Leader_ by Jaime Goff, every human on the planet should read _Man's Search for Meaning_. Okay? So that's my advice for today.
[00:35:00] All right, so, we're in this chapter. You talk about the part about being moving from reactive to regulated. And I love the fact that you have this quote, 'cause I have this quote in my stuff. All right, so here's what it says, "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space lies our freedom and power to choose a response. In our response lies our growth and our happiness." Okay, so what else can we do to go from reactive to regulated? Help us get in that space.
[00:35:35] Dr. Jaime Goff: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think the first step is number one, what we've been talking about. Understanding the stories that drive you, right, and gaining awareness of those. And so like in the first part of the book, I talk a lot about deconstructing your story and really gaining understanding of it. But then once you've done that and you're moving into the space where you know, you do want to widen that space that Frankel talks about between stimulus and response. I think the first thing is getting in touch with your emotional experience and understanding it. Naming your emotions, you know, research shows, it's simply the act of naming what you're feeling begins to calm your physiological responses down. And many times when we don't have that space or that pause, or if it's very, very small, which it is for a lot of people, they end up reacting in kind of a fight, flight, freeze, fawn type of response, right? They're not choosing how they want to behave. They're just reacting to their emotions.
[00:36:39] And so learning to identify what you're feeling, understanding that all of our feelings and emotions are information. They don't have to be acted upon. And that typically the first emotion you identify right, is not really the deeper emotion of what's really going on for you. And so spending time with your experience and you know, getting in touch with your emotions so that you can understand them. And then once you've done that, you understand your emotions a little bit more, you're seeing how you might react to certain things, then it moves into, now let's really focus on identifying what are the things that really trigger me, right? So like you're, use the example of like my brother, right? Like my brother triggers me. So anyone who shows up or is a little bit like my brother, like that's a trigger. So really identifying like what are your triggers? What are those things that are going to narrow your response time if you're not really vigilant about those and like, becoming just more aware. And you can also begin preparing yourself ahead of time, like when you know certain things are your triggers. Like if you know getting challenging feedback maybe is a, is a trigger for you. Well, if you know you're going into a performance conversation with your boss, then there's some things you can do ahead of time to like put yourself in a space where you're better able to receive that. So identifying your triggers and how you can prepare yourself to face them. Things that you can do to regulate yourself. So that's different for everybody. For some people it, it is things like meditation or prayer or deep breathing. For others it might be exercise or taking a walk or, you know, whatever. There are a number of things you can do that can really help to regulate your stress responses more effectively.
[00:38:28] And then another strategy that I talk about in the book as well is that we all, no matter how much we've worked, there are times when our triggers get the best of us. Things don't go as well as we had hoped, right?
[00:38:41] Nicole Greer: Right, and we're tired, hungry.
[00:38:44] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah, we're tired, we're hungry, whatever it might be. And we're like, oh man, what did I do or what did I say? Like, you know, but you can learn from that. And so I think anytime something like that happens where you're like, oh, I wish I would've handled that differently. I call it emotional reappraisal. But you can go back and learn from that. So really spend time kind of thinking through that process. What happened? Why didn't I catch this in time? What story was I telling myself and what are other possibilities so that, again, when you face similar situations in the future, you'll be better equipped to deal with them proactively and show up in the way that you want to.
[00:39:19] Nicole Greer: Yeah. And I just have to think, and you do have it in here that like, you know, people cringe when I use this word: journaling. They're like, ah. It's like, you know, you don't have to be Shakespeare, you don't have to be Jaime Goff. You don't have to be Viktor Frankl. You don't have to be any of these people to journal. But like you said, you know, like taking a pause at the end of the day and just reviewing your day. And another thing that I do, Jaime, I talk to myself. Do any of y'all talk to yourself out there? Jaime's shaking her head yes. And, and like sometimes I'll get in what I call a swirl. Like this thing is going around and around and around in my brain. And I think that's the place where Viktor's saying, Hey, hey, you're in a swirl right now. Stop. And what is it that's got you so swirly, riled up, or sad. Or whatever emotion like you said you're feeling and take a look at it.
[00:40:16] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yep.
[00:40:16] Nicole Greer: That's magic. If you can start to
[00:40:18] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:19] Nicole Greer: right.
[00:40:19] Dr. Jaime Goff: It is. It really is.
[00:40:21] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Okay. All right. So let's deep dive a little bit more into disconnection and connection. So when we and you have, and she has a Brene Brown quote, which we all love Brene. Alright. Okay. So if you don't know who Brene Brown is, go to the YouTube, watch the Ted Talk. All right. Connection is why we're here. We are hardwired to connect with others. It's what gives purpose and meaning to our lives. And without it, don't miss this, there is suffering.
[00:40:47] Dr. Jaime Goff: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:48] Nicole Greer: So, I can get secure, I can get a new story if I connect. Talk about that.
[00:40:54] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I, I talk in the book about how security is a paradox. And there's this tension, right? Because we all want to feel safe. And that's kinda what we think about, like security is safety, we want to feel safe, but in order to really have a secure attachment story, we need to be able to take risks with other people. So that's kind of what I was mentioning earlier. There's this, this tension that's pulling between like I don't know if I can let them see this part of me, or I don't know if I can admit this mistake because what if I get judged or criticized as a result of it, right? But it's only when we take those risks to do those types of things that we can truly feel safe. Because if we never take the risk, we're not really safe. It's a false safety. Right, like, we're safe if we hide our mistakes, hide our weaknesses, et cetera. And that's not real safety. We're just, we're not being authentic and we're not honoring ourselves as, you know, full human beings who are very complex.
[00:42:04] And so, yeah, security requires a willingness to take the risk of letting other people really know who you are. And some of that is developed hopefully in personal relationships where we have those relationships personally. And I talk about for leaders, well really anyone. We all need that. Like we need deep personal relationships where we can really put it all out there. Obviously you don't necessarily want to put it all out there in the workplace.
[00:42:35] Nicole Greer: Don't put it all out there people.
[00:42:37] Dr. Jaime Goff: Don't do it. But there are also ways in which, in the workplace we need to let ourselves be seen a little bit more authentically too, especially as leaders. And I think that's when it comes to like being willing to say, oh, I messed up, or I made this mistake and here's what I learned from it. Or, oh, this is a weakness that I have, I'm not the greatest at this particular skill. And so that's the way we can kind of take those risks in appropriate ways in the workplace.
[00:43:02] Nicole Greer: Yeah. So I, I have this client and she's so funny. First of all, I love her 'cause she's funny, but she wanted to take the strengths finders. And so, you know, there's, there's all of these strengths on there. You can't have them all. You have to be humble enough and vulnerable enough to know, you can't have all these things. You know, the creator doesn't hand them out, "everybody gets everything." That's not how it works.
[00:43:26] So anyways, her, her lowest thing on her strengths finder was discipline. And when she took the assessment, oh, it hurt her feelings so bad. She was like, oh. You know, is that true? And I'm like, well, let's look at the top of this list of, you know, 34 things and there's all these beautiful things at the top of the list, you know? And so she's like, well, do I show up like that? And I'm like, no. You know, the thing about you is, because you're outgoing, you're fun, you have woo, people come behind you and clean up all these little things you start.
[00:43:59] Dr. Jaime Goff: And they're happy to do it.
[00:44:00] Nicole Greer: right because they love you, you know? And so it's so funny, you know, if you're just your authentic self, the people who have the things you don't have, connect and you make a great team. I mean, that's leadership in a nutshell.
[00:44:14] Dr. Jaime Goff: Exactly. Exactly. And that's also like, you know, okay, I'm a leader. Discipline's not my strength, so who can I surround myself with? That's really disciplined.
[00:44:25] Nicole Greer: Right.
[00:44:26] Dr. Jaime Goff: Right? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:27] Nicole Greer: So good. So good. And I, I'll just say in this chapter From Disconnection to Connection she's got, again, a great little like, chart for you to fill out, evaluating your relationships. And I think too, that I'm really tired of everybody telling me how busy they are. I know you're busy, people, I know you're busy, but you have to slow down to go fast. And so I think, wow, what if people filled out this chart that Jaime Goff put together on 110 and they actually slowed down to say, this is what my relationship is like with my assistant, with my peer in marketing 'cause I'm in sales and you know, like really assessed how connected they are. It would be a game changer.
[00:45:12] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And you know, like the busyness type of thing that you're mentioning, like, I'm too busy to slow down and listen. Like, 'cause I talk about attunement, right? In that chapter as well, like as a leader being attuned, you know, and slowing down, being attuned and empathetic with your team members especially, oh, I'm too busy for that. It's like you said, if you slow down. How much wasted time and effort do you save later on because you took a few moments to genuinely connect and listen to what someone else was trying to share with you. The amount of time that you gain back by doing something that really and honestly doesn't take a long time is just, it's huge. It's huge. And people, I sometimes think busyness is an excuse.
[00:46:02] Nicole Greer: I do, too.
[00:46:05] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. For not, for not really slowing down and doing the more meaningful things and the more meaningful and harder work.
[00:46:12] Nicole Greer: Right, right. Absolutely. Okay, so we're almost out of time, but we've got to talk about disintegration and integration. Right quick, as we say in Concord, North Carolina.
[00:46:23] Dr. Jaime Goff: Sure. Sure.
[00:46:23] Nicole Greer: Right quick. You've got a quote in here. It says, "Integration means putting the pieces back together, creating a coherent narrative that can be lived and understood." So essentially what you're trying to help people do in this book is like, I'm trying to help you get a new story and lead from that place. Yes.
[00:46:41] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yep. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And one where you, 'cause you know, in the beginning of the book, I'm having them like really kind of dig in and like deconstruct Right. Take things apart. Well, you can't deconstruct something and leave it there. Right. You need to put it back together. And like, the example of the man you were talking about earlier who was born in the meth house. And so just kind of, yeah, taking those pieces, taking the time to put them back together and really think about how everything you've experienced in your life is incredibly valuable and how it can be used in a positive way as you step into leadership and as you, you know, continue in leadership and how it can help you be a more effective leader.
[00:47:22] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah. So, on page 138, she talks about writing your new leadership story. So if you've done all the homework, like,
[00:47:31] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah.
[00:47:32] Nicole Greer: I think this is a book, you could, you could look through it to see what you're, what you got coming your direction, but I think like you gotta go step by step. Is that right?
[00:47:41] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah, it really is. And that's the way it's designed. It's not a long book.
[00:47:44] Nicole Greer: No, not at all.
[00:47:45] Dr. Jaime Goff: Right? So you can read through it fairly quickly. But in order to really reap the benefits, it is about slowing down and actually doing the exercises, the journaling exercises, and some of the other things that are in the book, because there are a lot of activities and self-reflection that are baked into it.
[00:48:04] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. And so maybe you might get lucky. She's got an example, David's new leadership story and Joanna's new leadership story that are in here. So you know. Jaime's not coming over to the house. But she will hold your hand as you go through the
[00:48:18] Dr. Jaime Goff: That's right.
[00:48:19] Nicole Greer: Right. Okay. So, e everybody would go out and get this book, _The Secure Leader: Discover the Hidden Forces that Shape Your Leadership Story and How to Change Them._ You know, this is what I would call deep work. Is that fair?
[00:48:31] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I intend.
[00:48:34] Nicole Greer: Yeah. Yeah. So, and you know, once you go deep. All this stuff out here. Easy peasy. So good.
[00:48:41] Dr. Jaime Goff: Falls into place.
[00:48:42] Nicole Greer: Right, that's right. Okay, so, Jaime, we're at the top of the hour. Is there just like one more nugget that you might, you know? 'Cause in my imagination, all my listeners are like, wait, don't let her go. What else might she share? One more nugget. What, what, what might you share with us?
[00:48:55] Dr. Jaime Goff: I think that leadership and secure leadership especially begins with who you are.
[00:49:04] Nicole Greer: Yeah.
[00:49:06] Dr. Jaime Goff: As a person and as a leader. And that doesn't mean that leaders are born and not made, but what it does mean is that we all have to look honestly at ourselves and work on improving ourselves and improving and rewriting our own stories before we can really help our teams perform at a high level and flourish. So it it starts with you. I, I think that's the basic message, right? It starts with you as a leader and the willingness to, to look deep.
[00:49:42] Nicole Greer: Those of you that listen to this podcast know, I love the word willingness so much. Okay. So willingness is the ability to do what needs to be done without reservation, refusal, or judgment. So I don't know, maybe you're listening to this thing all the way through and you're like, I'm secure. Well just get the book and work through it anyway. Be willing. Okay. All right, Jaime, if we want to find you, where do we find you? What's your website? What's all your stuff?
[00:50:09] Dr. Jaime Goff: Yeah. Yeah. So website, drjaimegoff.com. LinkedIn, just search for Jaime Goff. I'm on there. I'm pretty active. Also on Instagram, so any of those platforms. The book is available anywhere books are sold, so Amazon, bookshop.org, whatever people prefer.
[00:50:25] Nicole Greer: Okay. All right, friends, it's been another great episode of the Build A Vibrant Culture Podcast. Hold on. Don't, don't turn it off. Go down and click the button. Give us the like, and then say something like, "Jaime rocks" or whatever, or I feel more secure just having heard her voice, whatever you want to say, we would appreciate it. Thank you so much, Jaime, for being on the Build A Vibrant Culture podcast.
[00:50:46] Dr. Jaime Goff: Absolutely. Thank you for having me, Nicole.
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