We Buffed & Nerfed Every Hero in Marvel Rivals | Ep. 19

In this special episode, we sit down with Deathandgaming and Rauknows to make a buff, nerf and rework tier list! 

What is Clear Comms Podcast?

A Marvel Rivals Podcast hosted by Coach Mills and CaptainCoach, two creator and educators for Marvel Rivals. We discuss all things Rivals including META, balance and the future of development. We will often debate controversial topics that surround the game and plan to bring on many exciting guests from pros to devs!!!

Coach Mills (00:00.883)
What's up guys and welcome to a brand new clear comms episode today is a special Tier list buff nerf and rework tier list episode and we're joined by first returning guest death and gaming. Thank you so much for coming back and and new guest cons of creators streamer gamer route knows what's up, man rage baiter. I forgot about that. No, okay. No, but

Death And Gaming (00:14.841)
Absolutely.

RauKnows (00:23.406)
Hello. Glad to be here.

Captain Coach (00:26.86)
He knows dude, buff nerf. We're gonna figure it out man.

Coach Mills (00:29.939)
Yeah, yeah, we had to get you on the pod. see the tweets. We had to get you on this episode.

RauKnows (00:35.027)
Ha

Captain Coach (00:35.396)
That's all I see is his tweets. I saw his tweets before I saw him. This guy's got a lot of opinions.

Coach Mills (00:38.879)
Yeah, it's okay.

RauKnows (00:38.958)
Dude, I've been doing content for five years and I just started doing Twitter like a month ago and I have like seven million impressions. It's been fun.

Coach Mills (00:43.736)
You've been crushing, you've been crushing. It's crazy, it's crazy.

Death And Gaming (00:44.409)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (00:47.364)
Why do you think you have so many impressions in like one sentence?

RauKnows (00:50.51)
My goal with it is always to have a little bit of truth but with something I know is gonna piss off the average player Because at the end of the day people don't remember things if it's bland because it's not necessarily just a rage bait thing I don't make a dollar off Twitter, but if you don't make someone feel an emotion, it doesn't stick with them So if you can introduce a an interesting topic and piss them off in the meantime It will actually kind of sit in their brain and if they're intelligent individual once they calm down They might actually kind of ponder on them

Coach Mills (00:57.481)
There it is.

Captain Coach (00:57.934)
Love it.

Coach Mills (01:19.007)
It's so hard, feel like the TikTok space is like, nuance is dead. Like it doesn't get rewarded as much as like definitive statements, which is what this special episode is gonna be about because in this episode, we are gonna be going over every single character in the game and we're gonna be ranking them on our tier list to decide. know, NetEase is gonna look at this and do everything that we say. So looking at it right here, there are five categories. There are buff,

Captain Coach (01:42.446)
you

RauKnows (01:43.683)
yeah.

Coach Mills (01:47.633)
Obviously we have to all agree or majority agree to put a character in a tier. If we can't decide, can throw them to the end and maybe debate about it later. But buff, then this nerf rework, some fundamental core kit change, not like a slight change, but like a pretty massive foundational change. Team up change, what they have, change it, add a new one. We could talk about that. And then no changes, keep them exactly as they are.

We'll be placing them into these categories and we will be spinning this wheel to decide what character we do first. So yeah, are y'all ready? Y'all ready to get started? All right, all right. All right. Very curious what the first character is gonna be. It's gonna be...

RauKnows (02:21.358)
Let's do it.

Captain Coach (02:22.692)
Excited for this.

Death And Gaming (02:22.809)
Let's go.

Death And Gaming (02:29.763)
Black Panther, Black Panther.

Coach Mills (02:32.191)
Ultron, okay first character is Ultron. Okay, okay well You know I want to actually start it off with our new guest Rao I want to hear your opinion You know Ultron just got a big buff as of 7.5. How do you feel about the character and where would you place him on this list?

Captain Coach (02:32.74)
Wow

Death And Gaming (02:33.474)
Ow.

RauKnows (02:52.438)
It's tough, because I... I hate triple support. But, especially with people getting better at Black Cat lately, I've actually been... because I'm a Psylocke main, I'm a hitscan main. And I've had quite a few games where I've actually gone Ultron into a good cat or a good melee comp. Because there's not... as long as I don't have like Iron Fist or something, there's not really much they can really do about him. So it's kind of nice being able to play a hitscan, be an overlord, kind of seeing over everything. Is he healthy for the game? It's kind of tough.

It's tough because I know his best spot is definitely like top 500. The lower rank you get to the less he is. So I'd say at the highest level. It's hard for me to speak on, but I'd say maybe a slight nerf, but I think his. I don't know if he's in the rework category because some people don't like that. He's kind of like an AFK healer, but I like that his bots. Don't they have to have LOS, right? So you can't just AFK it completely like a snowflake. I don't think he's in the rework category.

Coach Mills (03:47.177)
Yeah

RauKnows (03:52.28)
But I could definitely see a minor nerf.

Coach Mills (03:53.951)
What about you, death? do you, what is, what's your

Death And Gaming (03:57.717)
I would rework him personally. think like him and Iron Man, I sort of had a fantasy of what those characters would play like before I got into the game. And they just kind of sit in the sky a little bit too passively for me. Whereas like I played the old PS2 game, Zone of the Unders 2, which was a fantastic mech game. It really made you feel like you were zipping around the sky as like a mech. I expected kind of something like that. And when I see Ultron, it's just like...

RauKnows (03:59.694)
Do think so?

Death And Gaming (04:24.761)
It's not to say that he doesn't get value for doing what he does. It just isn't very exciting and I'm not I personally am NOT a fan of the Very passive abilities that's just sort of like you press and get value like put a drone on someone and then just kind like ignore it or you know You press a button and they get a shield similar like like Adam Soulbond It's just it's not a very interesting ability to me. So I like abilities that allow you to do a little bit more Yeah

Coach Mills (04:47.229)
more decisions, more button presses, more skill hits.

Captain Coach (04:49.92)
You know, Hey, Hey, disagreeing on the very first one. Listen, Ultron is fun. Ultron is fun because you can be having full conversations, mid-ranked game operating at 50 % brain capacity. And each of your drones are the level of a GM three pocket healer. Okay.

Coach Mills (04:53.131)
Hey, let's go. No, I don't think we're gonna we're gonna agree on any of these by the way

Death And Gaming (04:53.591)
Yeah.

RauKnows (05:02.188)
Hahaha!

Coach Mills (05:06.345)
Okay.

Coach Mills (05:11.711)
Okay, no. Oh my god, no.

RauKnows (05:12.494)
I think you overestimate the average GM3 healer.

Captain Coach (05:14.86)
You get to just chill. Baby, okay, I agree on that. You get to just chill, like sit back, put your feet up on the desk. I've been picking up Ultron cause he's just broken. I...

Death And Gaming (05:15.565)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (05:26.105)
So what I'm hearing is Captain Coach likes easy to play high value supports. He wants more of those.

Coach Mills (05:30.172)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

RauKnows (05:31.01)
Basically.

Captain Coach (05:31.108)
Love me some rocket too, but let's not skip ahead. I've been playing Ultron a lot lately. So instead of getting flame for not swapping off a Hulk, I'll be flame first, forcing Ultron into two healer comps, which does kind of work in some comps right now, by the way. I think I was reworked until I started playing him more. And I think he probably just needs a nerf.

Coach Mills (05:33.991)
So I said...

Death And Gaming (05:48.867)
Big cat.

Captain Coach (05:59.716)
I like how he is. agree he's like really good the higher rank you go. So maybe you could like reallocate some of his power a little bit.

Coach Mills (06:02.673)
see

Coach Mills (06:07.891)
See, I knew this was gonna fucking happen, because I am with Death in gaming, and I think the character should get reworked, so we're two and two. Here's my problem. if I go across real quick, if I go across the board, I think that flying as a permanent state is just a bad design, period. I think flying can be an ability state, something like Star-Lord. You go up, and then you come down. But characters that just sit.

RauKnows (06:13.208)
Ha ha.

Okay.

RauKnows (06:24.364)
Yes.

Coach Mills (06:35.615)
and can hover there. think that it always creates problems. And Ultron's no exception, in my opinion. think characters, because the problem is Flyers just, there's so many characters on the roster that can't really meaningfully interact. And it can warp Metis. I mean, we've seen it with Torch, we've seen it with Gamma Iron Man, we've seen it with Ultron now. Like, I would honestly, I would go even more dramatic than you, Dan. I would literally rework this character completely out of the support role. I would take him.

Death And Gaming (07:04.569)
Really?

Coach Mills (07:05.33)
completely away. When I think Ultron, I think of a builder. I think of making robots and amalgamations. I don't think of him as a flying support. That's just me personally. I would probably move him completely out of this category.

Captain Coach (07:18.326)
I... If you're talking about hero fantasy, I totally agree. think Ultron is like a... I don't know, like a AFK heal bot is not really probably what most people think. Ultron's probably like most people's top five favorite Marvel character. He's pretty popular and he's not really close to what he appears in the comics and movies.

Coach Mills (07:33.811)
Yeah.

RauKnows (07:38.894)
Do you ever think they could have made a unique tank that is based off of clones and having multiples? To where your ability to take visual aggro comes from multiple angles but not just one big body?

Captain Coach (07:43.748)
100%.

Coach Mills (07:49.299)
would kind of be cool because it reminds me of like his ability in the movies to like just jump you know to anything right so you can have multiple bodies a little like the Loki thing but you're like a tank like you have space holding space creating I think I could see that

Captain Coach (07:50.094)
That would be sick.

Captain Coach (07:57.189)
my god.

RauKnows (07:59.512)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (08:02.424)
That would be so sick, because you could hold all different sorts of off angles. And it would maybe like low key, where it's like you don't know which one's the alpha, ultron, the strong one. man. OK, wait. Can I change my answer? All right. All right. I vote rework.

Coach Mills (08:14.963)
Yeah, yeah, of course. Or buffing him. no, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Yeah, yeah. Rework. That sounds good. what about you, Dad? How do you feel about this? Like a more, if you reworked him, would you want to see a more massive change to him do you just want to see like more minor? Like, do you think his, we could make support Ultron work or do you?

RauKnows (08:15.032)
Ha ha ha.

Death And Gaming (08:15.362)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (08:35.01)
have multiple versions.

Death And Gaming (08:36.565)
I think either way it could work. It doesn't matter to me if you put them in tank or support, but it's just like the abilities are just too passive to sit back there and it doesn't create a whole lot of skill expression. I define abilities in three different ways. Is it like a proactive ability, a predictive ability, or a reactive ability?

Coach Mills (08:37.515)
yeah, that'd be-

Death And Gaming (08:58.027)
I should say there's passive in there, but passive is the the worst one of the options. Like anything that's just you just sit there and it just happens is not exactly fun, especially to play into or play against. Whereas

Captain Coach (09:07.312)
This is coming from the person who defaults to Rocket, by the way, when he has the...

Death And Gaming (09:11.289)
I have words on that later, don't you worry. We'll get to that afterwards. But, yeah, the whole point of his kit is just kind of like he takes an angle and he pokes really effectively and provides that passive healing. I think there's a lot more interesting things that they can do. They've shown it with Gambit, Black Cat, with a lot of the heroes. There's a lot of interesting things that they can design with their kits. I think that they can do a lot better with Ultron.

Coach Mills (09:12.255)
Yeah.

RauKnows (09:12.94)
Ha ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (09:15.073)
We'll get there. Wait, wait, wait. We're skipping ahead. We're skipping ahead.

Captain Coach (09:18.51)
Ha ha ha

Coach Mills (09:39.209)
Yeah, like even keeping him as a support, like they could definitely, instead of just making drones something you apply, why can't he hit more skillshots to apply things, right? Skillshots to apply healing, skillshots to apply bonus damage, special, like make it so shooting isn't the only thing, basically shooting and then pressing the button to trigger his ability, know, the ability on people that are droned. That's all he gets, really, and that's all.

Death And Gaming (09:48.643)
Right.

Captain Coach (09:53.188)
Okay.

Captain Coach (10:03.236)
I agree with all your ideas. think really cool ideas. But there is something to be said for having just like a chill character that you can kind of fall back to when you don't want to play either like super sweaty like hitscan like his aim is kind of forgiving or you know, just something like, I don't know. I kind of like having some chill characters. do. I like Ultron's play style, but I do agree like a rework probably the way to go.

Coach Mills (10:19.644)
Right.

Death And Gaming (10:29.345)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (10:29.727)
Okay, okay, okay, so in the essence of time, let's move on to the next character, because we got a lot to get through, okay? Let's move.

Death And Gaming (10:37.753)
We got a lot to go through here.

Coach Mills (10:43.359)
And the next one.

Death And Gaming (10:46.54)
Coach Mills (10:46.597)
is the thing. Okay, okay, we have the thing next. Okay, I'm gonna start off with you, Raoul. How do you feel about the thing and where do think he should be placed on this list?

Captain Coach (10:47.757)
Ha ha ha ha.

RauKnows (10:56.728)
He might be one of the lowest skill characters in the game besides Rocket. I'm not even a melee player, but, so I actually made a melee only account the other day, and he's actually one of the characters that I'll flex, I'm a hitscan player, so try to get on their side. And that character literally just feels like he just exists. like you can make aggressive plays with his hops, but for the most part, it's just, that punching HP thing, just, yeah, it doesn't feel good to play, you just exist.

Coach Mills (11:22.589)
Yeah, if you know how to play tank, you know how to play thing, like just straight up. He's just plays that role. So with that being said, you think your skill ceiling is pretty low, or one of the lowest in the game. Do you think that that is bad, good? Do you wanna see a change there? Or do you think he's fine how that is?

RauKnows (11:27.585)
Exactly, yeah.

RauKnows (11:35.148)
Yeah, it's... I think ceiling... floor's low, ceiling's low.

RauKnows (11:43.278)
I do think melee characters need a decent tank counter, because I feel like the tank counters are kind of lacking right now. Emma's in a weak state. Thor, I'd argue Thor is almost more of an active counter to melee dive than Thing is. He can kick, he can beat most melees and just duelist off any angle, more mobile, he has Bucky Hook on a like two second cooldown. I don't know, I think... I hate to say... rework?

Death And Gaming (11:56.729)
I'd agree with that.

Coach Mills (11:56.946)
He can mark them at least, yeah.

RauKnows (12:11.436)
Maybe, I don't know. Because the game needs a tank that can counter melee, but it needs to be more interactive. Because as much as I hate melee characters, they're very interactive high APM. And to just have a tank that you just put your haymaker on your primary fire and hold it and occasionally hop, it just kind of, it feels bad.

Coach Mills (12:29.277)
What do you think Captain Coach? you play you play thing a lot I play him a lot as well, but I'm curious your thoughts

Captain Coach (12:33.464)
I like how you said, if you can play Tank, you can play Thing. If you can log into Marvel Rivals, you can play Thing. But I will say with the changes to his dash to make it so he can apply it on enemies, jump to enemies, that whole update did increase the skill ceiling of Thing, I think quite a bit because like Cloak and Dagger, when they gave her the double blind, kind of just increased the number of choices she has to make. That being said, I don't think it was the right direction for the character as a whole.

RauKnows (12:37.676)
Hahaha

Death And Gaming (12:38.475)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (13:03.87)
And I don't really like how they took away his defenses in favor of the damage reduction when I think really what his identity was was being an actual anchor. Yeah, he was much tankier in the older change. And now he just kind of farms tanks. I've actually done this multiple times and had it happen to me now, more people are figuring it out.

You just pick like all range characters against thing and he can't really play the game. Like he'll just die so fast. If you just load your team with damage, kind of like Thor, you really don't even need a tank against him. You can actually run zero tank. I've won games in like pretty high rank doing that. It's pretty stupid, which to me shows that the character is way too good at some things and not good enough at others to the point where even in a hero shooter, I think filling the niche or lack thereof can like...

You don't want to go too far in either direction. Like you want to have a niche and like unique hero identity, but not so much to where your character is just shut down by like total just, you know, existence, right? Like just picking the right thing. So I think Thing, I think they need to make him tankier. I think they need to take away his overall like damage output, make him more of like that comic book accurate can take a lot of hits. And he's a guy that kind of is more meant to take damage and keep people alive.

RauKnows (14:08.91)
existence.

Coach Mills (14:09.705)
Right.

Captain Coach (14:26.784)
And then as far as like, the anti-dive, I mean, I think that's a good part of his identity. I truly don't even think thing is like that bad for other than maybe like BP. So I think he needs kind of a rework, maybe a revert to kind of the way he was before and maybe really focus in on more of the defensive aspect of him is where I think they should do.

Coach Mills (14:49.961)
What about you, Death? What do you think?

Death And Gaming (14:52.373)
I'm not gonna lie. Thing is one of those heroes that bores the crap out of me immediately when I started like pressing his abilities in the practice range and I was like, this character is just definitely not going to be for me. So most of my opinions from him come from playing against him. You know, being able to essentially like he presses a button to sort of like, you know, lock certain heroes out from being able to play at all is like really frustrating. Especially when you're not hit by the slam and you just happen to like step over it. You're like, why can't I move all of a sudden? The stuff like that is really annoying. I think there's probably better ways to create a character that has a better counterplay, but

That all being said, those are my frustrations with the character. think whether he should be reworked, buffed, or nerfed, I think you guys... I'm gonna leave that to you guys, because you guys have probably a better opinion, you have more experience on him.

Captain Coach (15:30.647)
Yeah, he-

Coach Mills (15:31.487)
I played the thing a lot and I agree with all of y'all's takes about his skill ceiling. He's in a weird spot because I feel like in some ways he's a necessary evil. In pro play, there are not that many true dive counters. are some characters that you would think are dive counters like Bucky. He's not a team three-two-one dive counter. If you're being dove by Venom, Daredevil, and Black Cat.

Death And Gaming (15:43.32)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (15:44.632)
Mm-hmm.

Death And Gaming (15:48.259)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (16:00.167)
Like Bucky's not doing shit against that. Like characters like that aren't doing shit against that. Yeah. He's kind of the, him, Penny, like there's like these few characters that are like, I don't think they're well designed, but it almost feels like they're holding a spot that needs to be held until there are more characters that can hold those spots. Like down the line, more options, right?

Captain Coach (16:02.626)
Yeah. Zone control, like anti-dive, know, anti-movement. That's, very, it's very powerful.

RauKnows (16:12.91)
true dive counter.

RauKnows (16:24.802)
Kind like Wolverine was thrown in to avoid the triple tank, but he didn't really feel all that balance off the bat. It was just like, we need an anti-tank counter in.

Coach Mills (16:29.919)
Right we need yeah, that's kind of what thing feels like like he's in a lot of ways He's a gatekeeper against a lot of nonsense And and I think he's also a way to run away against nonsense if you're you know You get you get pulled off the map by Spidey wolf like three times in a row you like fucking I'm gonna pay like I'm going this character They do that. Okay, so you know I don't I don't hate the idea to give him no change I will say he's felt really clunky since the tenacity changes. I don't think he's bad He just he feels odd like he like sometimes things work and sometimes things don't

Captain Coach (16:31.906)
What was?

RauKnows (16:46.591)
No.

Captain Coach (16:46.722)
RauKnows (17:00.322)
And can we talk or get rid of this whole, Reinhardt had the same bullshit of like, sorry, I don't know if I can cuss. The whole controlling charge with WASD, just let me control my charge of my camera. Like the controlling charge of WSD feels so weird. I don't know if that's a minor complaint on my part, but he just feels clunky. His whole movement and everything.

Coach Mills (17:00.365)
Coach Mills (17:06.259)
Yeah, yeah, go for it. Yeah.

Captain Coach (17:07.227)
You're good.

Coach Mills (17:20.447)
I mean, maybe that's, hey, maybe that's the hero fantasy. You're clunky, because you're the, I'm just kidding. I don't fucking know. But I think he could be changed to feel better. just, I don't necessarily want to see him just gutted or removed completely that identity, because I think it's important, at least for now. But I don't know, I don't know. What do y'all think? What do y'all think we would put him?

RauKnows (17:24.718)
That's fair.

Death And Gaming (17:25.561)
No.

Captain Coach (17:42.308)
What?

RauKnows (17:42.51)
We got no change probably, no change or rework.

Death And Gaming (17:44.131)
think I'm down with no change honestly. He's a necessary evil at the moment. Like maybe down the line we might change our minds but I think I agree with what you said Mills is just you know he's kind of the answer to certain problems that come into contact with the game especially when you're on tank you know as if like I'm a DPS main that flexes and there's lots of times I'll be playing Rogue.

But there's a Wolverine on the enemy team that's just harassing the crap out of me and the other tank and nobody else is shooting him and I'll switch to Psylocke. You know, if you're not a, if you're not a, if you can't flex to DPS, you need to have an answer like thing to be able to just say, okay, screw this, I'm not dealing with your nonsense anymore. Like I just, can't imagine the game without him because of that.

Coach Mills (18:20.299)
And to what you were saying, Cap, is like his old version, if we reverted him back, he would still fill that hole we're talking about. Like no matter what version of him, it still fills the hole. You just can't delete him or like completely change him, I don't think.

Captain Coach (18:30.818)
Yeah, I mean, I

Captain Coach (18:35.402)
Yeah, I agree. don't think like changing him from like the offensive, more offensive version that they have now back to like his old version would be considered like a rework anyway. I agree, like no change technically.

Coach Mills (18:46.577)
Or like my this could be like no change or mine like very like, you know, minor minor changes, you know.

Captain Coach (18:49.796)
Yeah, I still think this guy needs a bit of a slight reworking for.

RauKnows (18:54.658)
pivoted more to the defensive like, bulwark compared to offensive.

Captain Coach (18:57.213)
Yeah, but whether that's like a buff nerf rework, no change, it's pretty close.

RauKnows (19:01.506)
I mean maybe try to pivot him in a way that he's, we have so little main tanks. Somehow make him a main tank that's anti-dive. Because we just have so much off-tanking.

Captain Coach (19:09.228)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (19:10.873)
Yeah, I've been saying I've been wanting a Reinhardt type character in the game, but

Captain Coach (19:12.42)
Yeah, and you lower his mobility so he can fulfill that tanky role, I really think is what he should be. And that way, he's not as oppressive to dive, right? Because you can't, I maybe you even look at the jump and lower it, so he can't go so far, but.

Coach Mills (19:27.711)
Change it so hear me out change it so that instead of him like charging and then slamming down He charges and pins somebody you know what I'm saying so he has a pin no I'm just saying he's like Reinhardt where he gets to just that's how that's how he anti-dives is he just like pins people

Death And Gaming (19:28.019)
I...

Death And Gaming (19:36.483)
Yeah. Wait.

Captain Coach (19:37.474)
That'd be cool. That would be cool though.

Death And Gaming (19:42.617)
What if I had a crazy idea here? If you had, if you treated him almost like, because when Rao said maybe more of like a main tank, what if you treated him sort of like an earthbender where he's just knocking the ground up and creating walls and he can take out rocks out of the ground and throw it at people or something? Give him a little bit of range?

Captain Coach (19:44.012)
Taunts would be cool too.

Coach Mills (19:46.313)
I like a taunt. We need a...

RauKnows (20:03.374)
So I actually thought of like a stone prison something, like he hits the ground, it's a skill shot and it lifts a person up, catches them for a second, but it's a one target and he has to hit it, something like that.

Death And Gaming (20:12.057)
that could be cool.

Coach Mills (20:12.927)
That would be sick. Okay, let's move on. Let's move on. We're going to talk about the next character. Let's see what we get.

Captain Coach (20:13.604)
That's not in the comics, guys.

RauKnows (20:15.756)
Hahaha!

Death And Gaming (20:15.981)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (20:24.388)
stone vendor.

Captain Coach (20:28.952)
Well, well, well.

Coach Mills (20:29.435)
Ooh, Angela, Angela, Angela. All right, I don't really play this character at all. I just know I lose to this character a lot. That's my whole experience. She's perfect, down to the last morsel, yeah.

RauKnows (20:29.614)
Hmm.

Captain Coach (20:36.727)
I player.

RauKnows (20:39.405)
Ha

Captain Coach (20:39.862)
Angela, she's perfect. Let's leave her as is.

RauKnows (20:43.196)
Hahaha!

Captain Coach (20:45.462)
Angela's such a cool character. She's, I don't know, I feel like she's not too OP. She's like got some cool ways you can play her. She can play her solo. You can carry games with her. She's very unique. I think she's like one of the coolest characters in the game. I just don't play her cause she's hard. It was lazy. I really liked the grabs you can get. I mean, she's better on certain maps, which can be an issue. I think increasing the range of her dash actually made her like more toxic to the game.

Death And Gaming (21:01.77)
hehe

Coach Mills (21:02.015)
Mmm.

Captain Coach (21:12.962)
rather than less. I'd be curious to hear your guys' opinions, because I still think you can play her on certain maps, but I'm just saying, like, if I get an angel on Domination...

Coach Mills (21:13.021)
Yeah

Coach Mills (21:17.981)
I think that was the perfect change for her. Not allowing her to kidnap these massive lengths. Gives her, I think, a deeper identity rather than just as a kidnap bot. She can dive, she can mark, she can kidnap somewhat, but it's more like a displace and not like a you're across the map now or whatever.

Captain Coach (21:22.124)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (21:41.668)
Well, I was talking about the change before where they made it so it could go farther. They made her kidnaps easier, which basically makes her more toxic on the ledge maps.

Coach Mills (21:46.472)
Coach Mills (21:53.151)
Cause the most recent changes, she can't kidnap as far. Like the most recent one, the most recent.

Captain Coach (21:58.774)
I thought they lowered the cool down of it. I might be getting my patches mixed up. I don't want to get roasted in the comments if I messed up. But yeah, I think Angela's pretty much right where she should be. I think she's like one of the cool characters in this game that's like really unique and like they did a really good job on. And it's like not too OP. don't think most people would consider her OP. She has like counters. I mean, she's pretty annoying, but yeah, there's ways to deal with her.

Coach Mills (22:05.287)
No,

RauKnows (22:05.795)
Ha ha.

Coach Mills (22:24.477)
Yeah, there are, she does fit that perma flight thing that I don't like, but it's not quite the same because she's not doing damage up here like Iron Man and Torch and Ultron, right? She has to go in. she has to, there's a certain amount of risk that comes with her having to play make, which I do like. So yeah, I would be fine with no change. What do y'all think, Death and Rao?

Death And Gaming (22:24.717)
Yeah.

RauKnows (22:47.512)
You got it.

Death And Gaming (22:47.545)
got no change. playing up against her feels fair. I think like before their most recent change, she was a little more annoying, but afterwards it felt better to play against. And I have someone in my community that plays a lot of Angela and I was worried. I was like, okay, is it better for you? And he said that he enjoys it way more. So I think like overall their last change was really, really well done. And I think that they did a really good job both making it fun to play and fun to play against. So I think she's in a solid spot right now.

Captain Coach (23:16.548)
Yeah, she can get an instant reset on her shield charge. She actually has more burst, I think, on single targets if she takes a little damage. But I haven't played her a ton since the change. I think, yeah, she's a really cool character. She's a lot of fun.

RauKnows (23:30.528)
like cyclical characters. I jokingly played her the other day in a lobby. I think I got three kidnaps in a row into Pennyminds. But as a duelist, my only grievance with her is she's creeping into that Thor unhealthy 1v1 area versus duelist. As a Psylocke player, I basically cannot take an angle if there's a good Angela. And it basically eliminates, like people always talk about, there's so many duelists in the game, but...

Captain Coach (23:49.484)
Yeah.

RauKnows (23:59.084)
Like 10 of those duelists are situational or useless and then half of the remaining ones have to take angles to find value and if you have a good Angela you basically just have to be stuck with your team and she doesn't feel all that punishable. She has the opposite issue of Thor. I don't think she should have permanent flight but the other, or not Thor, thing where thing feels clunky in his movement, her movement is too free and I know I'm biased as a hitscan player saying that. I have 1500 hours in Kovacs. I can't hit her to save my life.

Like her movement is nuts and then she has a shield on top of that. So I feel like maybe make her a little bit more punishable, but that's my only issue is punishable.

Coach Mills (24:30.867)
They could probably they could probably nerf her shield slightly if they wanted to but like to but to your thing Like she's really good at marking. I will like she's very good at marking But if you if you off angle with somebody, I mean she can't she can't clear you like if you're off angling with the Jeff You know or another support or another tank like she she has to physically be there To contest you which I don't feel is the same way about Ultron who could just be in the area and contest you is a little you know That's that's kind of the

Death And Gaming (24:49.57)
Yeah.

RauKnows (24:59.694)
Yes sir.

Coach Mills (25:00.447)
But it is annoying when like, you you take an off angle, then she comes for a second, then you have to back up. then, you know, I, but.

Captain Coach (25:07.522)
Yeah, I mean that's...

RauKnows (25:07.918)
think that's my only argument is there's no counterplay to it. You can play the opposite coast and track where she's at, but she has so much mobility, it really just limits the playstyle of the duelist. That's my only complaint.

Captain Coach (25:16.856)
That's pretty good insight. Do you think maybe lowering the movement speed of her flight by like a meter or something per second?

RauKnows (25:23.192)
Yeah, have it on a cooldown, maybe like Torch or something, because it just like, as a Star-Lord and Scythe player, Scylok's a lot better now because you can mark her and build your dashes back off, but it almost feels like back in the Overwatch days of playing Genji versus a Winston or Sombra versus a Winston, the instant you saw the Sombra or Genji dash out, Winston jumps them, they're just insta-dead. That's how Angela feels. If she dives you after a mobility ability, you're just cooked, because you're not outpacing her with any type of movement. Maybe Sperm.

Captain Coach (25:48.494)
So nerf then, or would you say?

RauKnows (25:49.998)
I think I think no change. I think she's good right now, but if I had to nitpick it would be it would be nerf the perma flight I I agree with Mills like perm flight doesn't belong in games like imagine giving far and overwatch perma flight How horrible that would be to go against?

Coach Mills (26:04.871)
Yeah, yeah, just needs very specific types of characters to deal with permaflite and I'm not a fan. That's kind of why when we were in a flyer meta, they added grounding to everything, like in an effort to fix this problem, but like you can't fix that problem. You can't just add grounding to every character in the game. It just doesn't make sense.

RauKnows (26:20.642)
That was the whole reason that they added things, dash. The anti was to be anti.

Captain Coach (26:24.42)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (26:24.499)
Yep. Things dash and the thing. then, and then Thor's grounding bubble and then Bucky's grounding, E like all of it was added because of that.

Captain Coach (26:26.936)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (26:31.844)
Yeah, and you know what, even in the flyer meta, you could still play Thing and play like a very defensive, cart-centric style and kind of like brute force your way through that like defensive play style. Even though that meta, like he couldn't touch flyers, like he literally couldn't touch them. And I was still, I still like that version of Thing more because he had such like a powerful identity. Sorry, I know we're not talking about Thing, but I, well, you put him in, I don't know. I mean, sorry, guys, Watson, we're actually, we all know what we're talking about.

Coach Mills (26:52.923)
Well, we kind of...

RauKnows (26:56.012)
Hahaha!

Death And Gaming (27:01.625)
think you just, I think you put the I don't know to like light tweaks or something. Delete. I have a couple for that.

Captain Coach (27:01.796)
Closer.

Coach Mills (27:05.391)
Alright, yeah, okay. Yeah, this is the ones that we don't have a comprehensive plan for, I think, is kind of the whole thing. But anyways, let's remove plan.

RauKnows (27:05.71)
Totally.

Death And Gaming (27:13.048)
Yeah.

RauKnows (27:16.152)
Yeah, think they're doing good about their kind of limit testing on things. Like they keep adding and taking away abilities, just trying to find what works.

Captain Coach (27:19.758)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (27:22.507)
this is gonna be fun. Okay, man. We're getting all the tanks. We're hitting tanks. Thanks. Penny Penny fucking Penny Penny. Yeah Yeah, yeah I I hear we don't have to leave it here, but I'm gonna my first argument here is that this character needs Matt like massive reworks I think I understand that there are people and there are people that have even come on this podcast like Brandon Gritch that probably are gonna be mad about where I placed Penny

Captain Coach (27:23.076)
No.

Captain Coach (27:32.556)
Yeah, get that delete category back up.

Coach Mills (27:52.393)
but I think that she is just too polarizing of a character when she completely dominates console, low elo lobbies, her win rates extremely high, she has maps that she's super dominant on. I think it would be far better, in my opinion, to at the very minimum rework her ultimate, because her ultimate is dog shit, it just doesn't do anything, terrible. And then...

change parts of her kit and give her more offensive capabilities, make her a little bit less powerful on defense or quite a bit, give her offensive capabilities. Those are the things that I would like to see. I really like Brandon Gritch's idea where there's like mines you can shoot out that just explode. Like you can just detonate, like you can just shoot them and they just explode right away. So they're not, you don't have to hope that someone walks into them, can be a little bit more offensive. I also liked the idea of like a

My idea for her ultimate is that it's literally a bubble shield. Like I don't know if y'all played Halo. I don't know, Rao, you played Halo back in the day. just like, imagine like a six second bubble shield, or it could be, it's just basically just a big shield. hard to break. It just gets, pops up. It just appears. So like she could, when she has her ultimate, she could do something like dash to point, pop it, put her generator down right in the middle. And then like, and then now she's like, she just set up.

for the next six seconds, she creates all this space. Like her team can come in, you know, and like, it just gives them a pretty big advantage. Of course, it's a one way, it's a one way shield. So like she could shoot out of it, but they can't shoot into it. That's what I would like to see with this character. Just completely change up her identity, make it so that, you know, I just want more fair win rates across the board, especially for low elo. Like she's just a low elo terrorist right now. And yeah.

Captain Coach (29:38.552)
But don't revert the change that team captain talked about last week where you can make her webs into the shape of a dick. Definitely keep that in. That's part of her core identity as a hero.

Coach Mills (29:45.663)
Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah keep that yeah keep that one yeah yeah yeah. What are y'all?

Death And Gaming (29:45.763)
Hmm.

Death And Gaming (29:52.035)
Can I go next on this one? Because actually, I do love the idea of Penny. And I play with Brandon quite a bit. what I love about Penny is the fact that so many people, I think, don't quite know what to do with the character. But when you watch someone who has put hundreds of hours onto Penny and what they do with their minds and how they get kills and stuff, it's really creative. And I like that aspect of it. But yeah, the.

RauKnows (29:52.367)
Ha

Coach Mills (29:53.193)
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, go for it.

Death And Gaming (30:21.335)
The problem is that she they keep putting power into her bunker capabilities. And I think it's a combination of one, they keep buffing the nests and giving more webs that allow you to have more abilities to bunker down. And also, like when it comes to certain maps, like some of the maps have bad map design that just allow that bunker play style to be more effective. So I think a couple of map redesigns would also like benefit. But I agree with you that like, you know, it is a combination of her alter. Alt is not one that even the penny players like. They just use it sort of as like a last

the last ditch effort to stay alive most of the time and try and, you know, stall for time or do what they can to just stay in the fight longer. The web breaks, the glitch, the bugs that happen with her need to be changed. And then she just needs to have something in her kit that allows her to be a little bit more proactive about her plays and less just sit back and do what she needs to do. Because, you know, Penny players have for sure gotten really good at being able to use that mobility to get behind, create space and be a distraction. But I wish there was something a little bit extra in the kit that allowed them to be.

Captain Coach (31:08.76)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (31:18.697)
more proactive that way and less power into just, you know, dropping that nest and sitting back.

Captain Coach (31:23.342)
Make her dash, web dash, whatever it is. It's so clunky. I feel like it never works. It's like.

Death And Gaming (31:29.037)
Yeah, is extremely clunky and it breaks all the time. and.

Coach Mills (31:29.647)
It is, it is clunky. It is so clunky. They should, they should just give her the fucking D.Va flight. Just let her fly like D.Va for just small bursts. Like it just get rid of the grapple. It's so weird. I don't, I don't understand. I don't understand the purpose of it.

Death And Gaming (31:41.305)
Yeah, well like even with the grapple, even with the grapple like she can grab onto the walls but she's the only spider character that can only climb up the wall like like what like one time or something and then she just sticks there and it's yeah it's really it's just really weird like

Coach Mills (31:52.351)
just like yo-yo to it. it's... They could have... Yeah, I... I mean, so think about like all the tanks in the game. Like if you think of like a tank's core job, it's taking space. Like mostly it's taking space. I think Penny is like one of the few characters that, or few tanks, or maybe the only tank that is, she doesn't take space very well, she just holds it well. That, which I think is like...

Death And Gaming (32:15.683)
locks it down, yeah.

Coach Mills (32:19.559)
I don't really think that's a design that a tank should have. It's just the inability to challenge space. Give her, reduce exactly those bunker capabilities, give her abilities that allow her to challenge some of that space. But then dramatically weaken her bunker capabilities and make her a little bit more complex of a character, I think. That's what I would do. But I know that maybe there's some diehard Penny players that are like, don't, no, don't take away my Penny. I'm not 100 % sure, I can't speak for them.

Death And Gaming (32:31.245)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (32:47.374)
Take her away.

Coach Mills (32:48.991)
But what do think Raoul? You haven't given us a strong opinion either way?

RauKnows (32:54.094)
Okay, so somehow I've become friends with a ton of the top paint players I don't know how but the only time I've ever been like blown away by a penny's play style it was it was before Shibuya got removed and it was first point I went against I think it was boots He was like a top three penny at the time and he basically played her like a trapdoor spider And I thought that that was really really cool set up in the back line Pestered the back line tried to draw people in kind of thing and shut off the escape

Cause on that bottom, I think it's like a arcade room. That's where a lot of strategists go back to. So he shut down that area, pressured from behind his team goes forward. They now have nowhere that they can go. And I thought that was really unique. but yeah, the, the mines being such a passive thing, like in my head, there's. She could almost, okay. This sounds kind of crazy, but something that comes to mind is like being able to attach mines to your teammates backs or something that.

They only last for a certain amount of time, but she anti-dives in that method. So you prime your supports of mines and then you go do something aggressive and it only lasts for a few seconds or something like that, or I don't know. Yeah, that too. But think about that. Like the mine has like a three second lifespan. So you know a Black Panther is about to dash, you throw a mine on your strategist. And I don't know. It's it's such a passive boring play style. feels like.

Coach Mills (34:02.212)
I like that.

Captain Coach (34:02.7)
I thought you wanted to kill your own teammates for a second.

Coach Mills (34:16.447)
I mean, I'm not gonna lie, like, we don't need the generator, the mines, the traps. She has CC on three second cooldown. She gets to just nonstop crowd control you over and over and over again. like, is that not enough anti-dive, anti, you know?

RauKnows (34:25.571)
Nah.

RauKnows (34:32.087)
is

Death And Gaming (34:36.985)
If she sticks with her team,

RauKnows (34:37.206)
Is saying the nest shouldn't be permanent crazy? Like it should be on a timer. There should be an opening that if she makes a mistake and it's up too long, it destroys the team now has five seconds to push. They now have a certain amount of time. I don't know. Like obviously you might have to buffer somewhere else, but there needs to be openings in her kit because.

Captain Coach (34:55.172)
Be cool, maybe the web, she has like roots people, but it lasts a little longer, so she can do like explosion, she should set up an explosion.

Coach Mills (34:59.775)
See, I would take away the entire, this is gonna be a really big hot take, I would take away the entire nest mechanic in its entirety. And what I would do instead is give her like three different types of, it's an ability where she shoots a web and this web is a stun web that just sits on the ground and if people walk in it they get stunned. This web is an explosion web, this web, know, maybe this is a web that you can stand on and give healing to you or your teammates if they stand on it. And that's it, it's not like.

RauKnows (35:17.902)
Hmm.

Coach Mills (35:27.347)
you build it up over time because that makes it defensively, you know, that automatically makes it defensive because you can't just do it in the middle of a fight. But if I'm in the middle of the fight and I can turn around and just like throw a web on the ground that heals my teammates, throw a web behind someone and then push them into it, like walk at them and then they back up and get stunned. Like that's more interactive than I have to set up this nest that just builds value over time. And then it gets, cause that's, it's always going to be defensive if that's the way that the character operates in my.

Death And Gaming (35:50.615)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (35:54.809)
Yeah. Yeah, you know, I was just gonna say, it like, you know, what what I was saying about, you know, setting up that trap, like the best penny players a lot of times are doing just that where they take the time to sneak around, go all the way to the back, set up a trap in a place where the supports want to back up. So that way they start pressuring from the back and the rest of your team is pressuring from the front. They take too much damage. They back up. They hit a bomb. It's a free support pick every time. Like

Captain Coach (35:56.13)
Yeah.

RauKnows (35:57.048)
think they created, go ahead.

Death And Gaming (36:22.867)
Unfortunately, with the way the kit is designed right now, is it sort of like Rocket and that it incentivizes sort of this bunkering play style of sit back because that's the easiest part. But how would you design a kit that actually rewards that play style that encourages you to do that? Because technically that's the better way to play. Like that's you're to get a lot more effective plays out of doing that than just sitting back and bunkering with your team, despite the fact that it's easy to do. So, you know, whatever I think happens to Penny.

I think it's just like, how do we incentivize through the design to encourage them to make those types of plays?

Coach Mills (36:54.655)
Cause like, a lot of the changes I'm suggesting is it has nothing to do with even the high level penny players. Cause I think they're doing exactly what you're talking about. They're being like dynamic and stuff. It just comes down to the fact that like people that are playing this character very close to the skill floor are still winning a massive percentage of their games. First point holding people, you know? And you could say that that's a skill check or whatever, but I just don't really feel like, I just think that shows off unhealthy design. that, you know.

Death And Gaming (37:07.575)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (37:20.825)
And I am going to say that part of the Penny issue is a sort of rivals player team problem. I will say, because during the Penny Rocket team up time when her win rate was at crazy high, I had an over 60 % win rate against Penny. Because I know that if you just shoot the nest, then she's useless. And no matter what role I'm playing, if I'm on tank, support, or DPS, I feel like I'm the only one ever shooting the nest still. And I'll shoot it, and then it's just like, and the Penny's useless. And that's sort of the problem we're getting at, is that if you destroy the nest, she's pointless.

Coach Mills (37:28.595)
Yeah.

RauKnows (37:29.076)
Yeah, never.

Captain Coach (37:47.876)
I love playing with death.

Coach Mills (37:50.799)
Yeah, yeah, it either but like in that way it feels bad for the penny It feels bad for the penny to do nothing when their nest is always destroyed Or it feels really bad for everyone else because they don't destroy the nest and they just lose to the character, right? Like it's like yeah. okay

Death And Gaming (37:51.245)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (37:52.631)
He's on it, dude.

Death And Gaming (37:54.593)
Yeah. Yeah. Feels bad for the penny.

Death And Gaming (38:01.899)
Exactly, yeah. I think we should leave it in the re-word category because yeah, there's some tweaks that need to be made.

Coach Mills (38:09.394)
okay.

Captain Coach (38:14.062)
been in the Wii U.

Captain Coach (38:18.594)
RauKnows (38:19.906)
what?

Coach Mills (38:20.09)
there it is Spidey! We made it to Spidey. Alright Captain Coach, you're starting this one off. What do we do about Spidey?

Death And Gaming (38:20.249)
Bye!

Captain Coach (38:26.606)
Slight nerfs. I think Spider-Man, the stun, should be a little shorter duration. Overall, he's an iconic character for this game. I think just give him a little nerf. The pull stun, yeah. I think keep him the way he is. He's such an iconic character. He's so cool. Don't really think he needs buffs. The stun is really what makes him OP, in my opinion. Just lower it by maybe half a second. But I don't think he'll even need that yet.

Coach Mills (38:36.415)
The stun, like the pull? The pull stun?

Coach Mills (38:54.835)
Like if he grabs like someone, like a tank or something on the front line or whatever.

Captain Coach (38:57.856)
Yeah, because the problem with it is the map pulls. I'm pretty sure, I don't know if it will always pull to the full duration. I'd have to ask a Spider-Man expert for it. But in my head, if the stun lasted less long, you might actually be able to break out of it for those map pull specific plays. And then again, correct me, Spider-Man mains, if I'm wrong, or if it always goes to like, I am wrong. Until it reaches the body.

Coach Mills (39:18.271)
You're wrong. No, I'm just kidding. No, I'm just kidding. No, no, no, keep going.

RauKnows (39:21.358)
I'm pretty sure it's until it reaches the body. The reason map poles work is you have to be within 20 meters at the initiation of it hitting and then it ignores the distance it goes. It just has to reach the body.

Captain Coach (39:33.198)
Does the stun, I think the stun starts when it hits you though, right?

RauKnows (39:36.438)
Yes, yeah, it hits you and then finishes once the bodies connect.

Captain Coach (39:40.32)
Right, so...

Coach Mills (39:41.063)
Yeah, reducing it would not, it would not change this. No, it would not. The only thing it would change is if it...

Captain Coach (39:43.756)
It wouldn't...

RauKnows (39:45.57)
So you're basically saying like if he does a map pull it like breaks halfway through if they do a really long one.

Death And Gaming (39:50.585)
I think a good compromise would be if the web string looks like it crosses through a wall, it should snap the web. Because there's a couple of bullshit polls.

Coach Mills (39:51.303)
Yeah, that would not work.

RauKnows (39:57.954)
Yes, yeah.

Coach Mills (39:58.879)
Well, cause that's kind of what we have to, that's the core we got to get at is, are map pulls good or bad for the game? Cause like they're undoubtedly high skill to pull off consistently. I, I, uh, I climbed a grand master on Spider-Man and I pulled off like two, like it's really hard. Like they're very fucking hard to do. And the people that could do them consistently, they've definitely earned that skill. But after they've earned that skill, it does feel like bullshit. Like going up against it, like at a hundred percent.

RauKnows (40:15.436)
Hahaha!

Death And Gaming (40:18.221)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (40:25.86)
You

Coach Mills (40:27.389)
Like when I'm playing a random game against day like I'm just getting my fucking ass pulled off the map over and over and over again There's nothing I can do about it. I I still remember the first content creator tournament I played in and I went up against day's team and That motherfucker got like 11 Matt pulls off pulls off like like but he never misses and so like When you get close to and I that's the thing is like I get he's the best spider-man player in the world So it's it's hard to be like yeah, let's nerf this thing

Captain Coach (40:38.221)
my god.

Captain Coach (40:44.014)
That's all he does. That's all he did.

Coach Mills (40:55.689)
But I think it's becoming more more common that more Spider-Mens are able to do it. know, like originally a very, very small amount, but now it's more and more and more. And as people get better, now it's kind of just like every Spider-Man can kind of do it to a certain extent at least.

Death And Gaming (41:04.567)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (41:09.304)
They all do it. They all do it. And if they can't do it, then it's usually a free win. I think that is a core defining mechanic for the character, I feel like. And you really know when you have a good Spider-Man is when they're actually finding value on maps that they don't just have the permapool. I mean, I guess I see Spider-Man's pop off quite a bit, but.

Coach Mills (41:14.909)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (41:26.015)
Would there be any compensation to that? Like do you think Spider-Man is in an unhealthy spot? if they just, like if they did make it so that the wire got broken, like if it cuts line of sight, which I think is a reasonable change, what would you give to him? Would you give him something?

Captain Coach (41:32.044)
Yeah, no, that's what I meant.

Captain Coach (41:37.548)
Yeah, maybe... Yeah.

Well, I was going to say, obviously, when you change the thing that is really extreme, and once Spider-Man's learned, he becomes kind of OP, now you can buff him in other ways. I wouldn't be the expert on that, leave it to the Spider-Man players. But I mean, I'm sure they would like a little bit more damage on their combos. I'm sure that would probably go a long way. But if you hit a break point, does he become just gigabusted OP again? So it's it's

Coach Mills (42:07.679)
You got to be kind of careful with some of the breakpoints right now right right now his his I mean his combos are good like the Batman were like a lot of his things work. It's mostly just

Death And Gaming (42:09.9)
He's.

Captain Coach (42:15.672)
Maybe keep it.

Death And Gaming (42:16.441)
Spidey's strength isn't as damaged though, it's his ability to pull attention and resources, because he's so mobile. I think that's a big thing I see people mistake all the time, is they're just like, I'm not getting kills even though I landed my full combo on the support of Spidey. It's like, right, but you're the only character that can go from one side of the map to the other in four seconds. It can't be that easy. But during that time, your job as Spidey wasn't to get a kill, it was to pull their attention at the exact same time that the front line was getting pressured.

RauKnows (42:21.09)
there

Captain Coach (42:21.284)
Yeah, I was...

RauKnows (42:41.612)
And he's a vulture, he's an even more extreme version of Angela, of like, he can punish a mistake harder than any other hero. It's like, you see someone low, you see someone mess up a cooldown, it's instant kill. Like, people say you have to pull off this crazy 17 button combo to get a kill. Well, that's just because you're trying to force kills. Like, if you're just active and not tunnel visioning, that character is the best vulture in the game.

Coach Mills (42:41.703)
I think.

Death And Gaming (42:44.877)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (42:45.719)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (42:59.748)
That's a really good point. Really good point. Yeah.

Coach Mills (43:01.043)
Yeah, I mean he's very strong, but I think if you did make it so that line of sight breaks it, just give him a good team up and then he's fine. Maybe we just give him, maybe we give him a cool. Because his team up's kind of, right now the team up's not that great. It's the one with Penny. Mostly just due to the fact that the team up, so it's basically, you basically act like, yeah, but most of the time people just activate it and just allow yourself to get more shields. It just gives you more sustain.

Death And Gaming (43:09.315)
Yeah, I think that's it.

Captain Coach (43:09.496)
Yeah, a little survivability, a little shield on the uppercut maybe.

Death And Gaming (43:17.441)
Yeah, I don't even know what it does.

RauKnows (43:22.702)
It's an AOE tracer, right?

Coach Mills (43:29.449)
But the big problem is that Penny and Spider-Man have no synergy. That's like the biggest problem. So like giving them a team up with a diver, I think would be like a start. And then, you know.

Death And Gaming (43:38.521)
Yeah, I think, oh go for it, go for it.

RauKnows (43:40.13)
What is your guys, what is your guys closing opinion on it of just making his swings more punishing? Because this character is the fastest one back from spawn. He's the fastest to punish mistakes. It's on such a fast cool down. Like just one swing goes farther than any character's cooldowns all combined. Like it's, it's absolutely insane. So I feel like deaths on him either need to be more punishing. I know they use Zips a lot for canceling.

Coach Mills (44:07.208)
I think that's part of his identity though. I think that's like part of his identity. It's like that he gets to cheat death a little bit.

RauKnows (44:09.538)
Yeah, that's her.

Death And Gaming (44:10.561)
I'm going to tell you, yeah.

Captain Coach (44:12.79)
literally dying and coming back quicker so you can run it down. And that's why they feed. That is why they feed.

RauKnows (44:15.842)
Hahaha!

Coach Mills (44:15.935)
Yeah, exactly like no, no, I I've told I've said this before spider-man players just they need constant stimulation like they need They can't walk from back from the spot. You can't do that If you do that if you if you make it so that you know it like if you really wanted to you could make it so Similar to overwatch, you know, they made it so that Hammond could not Swing right out of spawn like he had to wait 10 seconds before his movement of cooldowns come off. You could do something like that

Death And Gaming (44:23.673)
Yeah.

RauKnows (44:26.284)
Hahaha!

Captain Coach (44:26.798)
D-d-d-d-d-

Coach Mills (44:44.681)
to where you walk out of spawn and then you can't, you know, can't venom grapple, you can't Spider-Man, but it is, that's the thing is it is lame. Like it makes the game more competitive, I think in some ways, but it really does, I mean, it ruins a big part of character skill expression, the kid learning how to roll out perfectly.

RauKnows (44:44.942)
about that.

Captain Coach (44:48.804)
That's so lame

Captain Coach (45:00.612)
All right.

Death And Gaming (45:03.801)
Yeah, the thing about, especially when it comes to mobility and movement, is this is like, sort of like what happened when they actually like, you know, broke Rockets kneecaps recently, is that when you change the speed of something that already felt good, then all of a sudden it starts to go into that, feels clunky territory and it's no longer fun to play. Like, yeah, it feels better for us to play against it, but now all of a sudden you're just like, it doesn't fulfill that same hero fantasy anymore. And for like Spidey, I don't actually think he needs any changes. I think he's good where he's at.

RauKnows (45:15.054)
Hmm.

Death And Gaming (45:31.287)
I don't have a problem playing against him even on like ledges with map pulls, but like to me, I think what players need to start getting in their head and understanding about dive heroes is understanding that that cooldowns that the each dive hero has. Like I don't have a problem with Spidey because the moment I know I see a Spidey, I immediately start pressuring him and the moment I see him zip out, I'm like, okay, he missed his web pull. He's going to come back and try that again in 10 more seconds. And in 10 more seconds, I can't be near that edge.

Right? And there's too many players that are autopiloting and just keep going, walking forward, just doing their own thing. Then they get pulled off and they're like, no, there was no way to predict that. It's like, there's no way to counter that. It's like, there was a way to counter it. You knew that he was there. You knew that you pushed him out and then you chose to stand there anyway. Like, this is the thing where I think the players just need to learn to get better at the game and playing up against him.

Coach Mills (46:14.259)
I mean, that pool cool down is, after he doesn't have it, he can't do his bread and butter either, so he's kind of just like pretty cosmetic for a while.

Death And Gaming (46:19.897)
Yeah, he just kind of sits there and waits. Yeah.

Captain Coach (46:22.404)
I like Rao's idea. Look at the swing and maybe add, what, like increased cool down between them? Because he gets like two, then it's like a, right?

RauKnows (46:32.462)
Cause it actually holds people back from improving at the game too cause they build this toxic mentality of, I die. come back fast. But even that five seconds that you're out of the fight, you're screwing over your team. So it, needs a change that encourages cause he's insane at a high level, but he needs a change that encourages lower rank players to actually learn the game properly. He's like, I've never really played Valorant, but what was it? A neon neon bypass the entire mechanic of Valorant with movement. And I feel like Spidey is the same way he's a

Death And Gaming (46:42.615)
Yeah.

RauKnows (47:01.314)
game-breaking character, and I think he's balanced right now, but...

Coach Mills (47:02.815)
Make him lose 10 % ult charge when he dies. Do some shit like that. If you did some shit like that, they would not fucking die, bro. Some shit like that. That would be crazy. That would be a crazy change. I don't even know if that would be a good change. I'll just spitball in here. my god, I don't know.

RauKnows (47:06.606)
There has to be something punishing.

Captain Coach (47:07.154)
Wow

Death And Gaming (47:07.513)
man.

Captain Coach (47:14.116)
That's hilarious.

That'd be a great change.

RauKnows (47:20.974)
Yeah, Team Up's definitely useless.

Death And Gaming (47:21.399)
be so funny.

Captain Coach (47:22.596)
No, think he's either nerfed or no change personally.

RauKnows (47:26.796)
I think the team up one's fair. He hasn't had a good team up since Venom. The Torch one was a joke. This one is just a little bit of overhealth.

Coach Mills (47:28.287)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (47:29.71)
That's fair too, yeah.

Death And Gaming (47:30.157)
that.

Coach Mills (47:34.843)
Okay, let's move on

RauKnows (47:39.342)
Getting a lot of controversial characters off the vent.

Coach Mills (47:41.311)
Yeah, I know. I feel like all of them are going to be... okay. Okay. Say no more. Say no more. No. Gambit! Gambit is the next one that won the spin, for those of you who are just listening. Okay, Cap, what's the verdict on Gambit? Oh, okay. Oh. Yeah.

Death And Gaming (47:41.494)
Right?

Captain Coach (47:41.56)
Yeah, we really are. We really are.

RauKnows (47:46.634)
Hahaha!

Captain Coach (47:51.2)
Alright, so hear me out. Yeah, hear me out boys.

Death And Gaming (47:52.761)
We already know.

Captain Coach (48:00.664)
No, you stole my joke. Coach Mills put Gambit in the buff category. Yeah, mean, obviously, we don't need to spend too much time on Gambit. feel like his ult is too strong. I think his core kit, I think, is pretty cool. It's like you can be aggressive. You can punish him after the two dashes. He is killable. I don't think his neutral is too broken. really is just Gambit's ult. Just lower it, lower the ult charge on it, lower the damage, whatever.

We could talk about all the ways we could rework the Gambit alt, I think for this sake of argument, we know that Gambit probably needs to be nerfed, and it's usually, that's the first place you look.

Death And Gaming (48:38.041)
This is all that needs to be nerfed, we all know what the problem is.

Coach Mills (48:39.409)
Yeah, yeah, no, 100%. I don't know if you think something different Raoul have some deeper nuance take.

RauKnows (48:46.816)
Only take I have on it is actually, is this crazy to say that I actually think he's balanced and fine below like GM3? Because his ultimate, if you don't get the entire team in the ultimate, it's not useless but it's weak. Most Gambits still think that they're unkillable in it. So, and I actually just made a video on this the other day. I actually think the issue with Gambit in the average lobby, even decent lobbies, is the lack of community education on you can kill him.

Death And Gaming (48:54.957)
No, I think that's right, yeah.

Coach Mills (48:55.359)
Probably.

Captain Coach (48:56.77)
Yeah, sure.

RauKnows (49:13.592)
We hear a Thanos snap when his ultimate goes off, but that's not what it is. The other day I won a game literally just going pun, I traded my ult for his every time. He comes in, he dies, or he loses his push. people just need to know what it is. They just blindly ban because they see good players do it. I think he's fine in reasonable lobbies, but the highest level ultron either, yeah, he needs something.

Death And Gaming (49:28.941)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (49:33.351)
I mean, yeah, I mean, cause right now, like a lot of the pro meta is like if Gambit's not banned, at least this was when Elsa was really strong. You just had so many lines, so many lines, know, like Gambit Loki, you just infinite, infinite ults, Gambit Starlord, we win the game, Gambit Rogue, overpowered, like there's just a lot there. I would say like, I, we'll talk about it later with Rogue, cause I think that some of his team up enabling is a little bit too strong. We'll talk about that later, but I do think his ultimate.

Death And Gaming (49:34.489)
I

RauKnows (49:41.058)
Banner pick.

Coach Mills (50:01.961)
just does a little bit too much of everything. Like if you look at his alt, straight up, just directly compared to like Mantis's alt. It's just like, it's like so good.

Death And Gaming (50:05.751)
Yeah.

It's a CVS receipt of like abilities that he's got on his ultimate. it's just...

Coach Mills (50:13.063)
Yeah, it does everything, right, yeah. Yeah, and we've talked about it before, but my big thing is I would love it if he just gets to decide. Defensive or offensive, that's it. You just give him two options. Because it matches the core picking thing, right? It matches, right? We get to protect our team or we get to go in and be aggressive, but we don't have all this health gain and sustain and all this bullshit.

Captain Coach (50:16.846)
Nice and quick.

Captain Coach (50:26.178)
Yeah, that's what I've been saying. Gets to choose the stats.

Death And Gaming (50:26.457)
That could be cool.

RauKnows (50:40.28)
So you're thinking kind of like a Luna switch of like he pops it and then he can switch it to either they're getting healed or have the. initiation. And then you can't switch from that. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

Coach Mills (50:45.055)
No, no, it's like he picks one or the other when he activates it Initiates it like just like he does with his abilities where he gets to pick the you know The the heal side or the damage side and you get to decide so if you're if you're up in a fight Or you're trying to do a combo you want to use the damage side, but if you're trying to like that won't cleanse the damage side won't cleanse it won't heal it's it it's just offense and then

Death And Gaming (51:05.599)
more player choice.

Coach Mills (51:09.253)
Offensive mobility like one's offensive mobility and maybe that's the ult charge one and then one is healing defense and Like cleansing so you get to choose one or the other I think that just straight up makes him more balanced and it also Gives him nuance like decision-making just like the rest of his kit. It doesn't break anything about him

Death And Gaming (51:19.544)
that idea.

RauKnows (51:27.16)
Final thought on it, and tell me if this breaks them too much, do you think it would be crazy to say that you use the ult of whatever deck you're on? So you have to retroactively be in the ult. Like, you have to be in spades or you have to be in heart, you pop the ult, it's immediately that one. So if you actually lock yourself onto the wrong deck at the wrong time, you don't get to do.

Coach Mills (51:43.659)
Hehehehe, yeah.

Captain Coach (51:44.824)
Yeah, that's actually something I've suggested on this podcast.

Coach Mills (51:47.643)
I like it. I do feel like it'd be a little frustrating, but I do like it. Okay, let's move on. How many heroes do we have? One, two, three, four, five, six heroes, and we're 52 minutes in. Let's go. Okay, we're moving. Let's move on. We're gonna have to speed up a little bit. Just a little bit. All right.

Death And Gaming (51:49.657)
have to test it, but yeah.

RauKnows (52:01.934)
We got this. I'll cut it back.

Death And Gaming (52:02.361)
We'll have to speed it up a little bit.

RauKnows (52:09.518)
Gene fine, let's go. Oh fuck, okay.

Coach Mills (52:10.959)
Psylocke so so we have two Psylocke mains on the pod right now, Ral and Death so Okay, okay, so we're definitely Nerfing this character. No, what are we doing with this character guys? Y'all have probably a lot of takes about this character

Captain Coach (52:15.97)
Take it away, boys. I'm gonna go to the bathroom real quick.

Death And Gaming (52:26.337)
Yeah, we're both Psylocke players, but Raoul, do you want to go first or should I go first?

RauKnows (52:32.14)
Yeah, you can go first.

Death And Gaming (52:33.401)
I think that she's in the sort of the best spot she's ever been right now. She is strong, yes, but that she feels like she's strong if you're incredibly good at her. And I think that's exactly what you want to have. The buff that she got was exactly what she needed because like last season I hit eternity with her and it was difficult, not impossible once you got to those higher ELOs.

But now it's like, now I'm being rewarded for my proactive plays by instead of giving me damage, they just gave me more abilities, which allowed me to do more and be more creative. The only thing that I would say is that I've said this before in other videos of my own, but her alt is one of those ones that is frustrating to go against, and I would be fine with them reworking that. However, my only worry about that is if you change her alt to be a little bit less RNG and give it more skill expression, you're going to naturally buff people who

are extremely good at her like tap 13. Like imagine giving tap 13 more power on Psylocke. So even though I'm okay, because it would be fun to rework that ultimate to be less RNG, would, giving that character more skill expression might be a double-edged sword that I'm worried about. So I'm cool with leaving her in no change, but the only thing that I would understand people would want to possibly change in her is her ultimate. But like I said, that comes with, you you might not get exactly what you want with that wish.

RauKnows (53:52.088)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (53:52.159)
What do you think? I have a pretty hot take about reworking the ultimate. This kind of plays into your fear though, Death. So this is the ultimate that I like, because I think, this, I hate her ult, just from a design point of view. Because it's a high skill, it's such a high skill character that has this autopilot ult. This is what I like. I like an ult where you press it, maybe it's a 10 % damage increase, something very small for six seconds, and it resets all of her cooldowns. That's the only thing it does.

Death And Gaming (53:59.597)
Yeah. Yeah.

Captain Coach (54:01.22)
I think our alt is fine right now. I mean, it's stupid. I... I...

RauKnows (54:04.524)
It's so boring. It's not fun to use, it's not good to go against.

Death And Gaming (54:07.929)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (54:21.599)
So it's like, like, like imagine you could do a play like, in viz dash 180 dash pop it in viz dash 180 dash. Like you could do some shit like that that would just like, it's all skill expression, but it's crazy playmaking. Oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah.

RauKnows (54:21.698)
Yeah, a neutral increasing ultimate.

Captain Coach (54:36.324)
just want to say real quick, I meant in terms of balance now. I don't like the alt itself. Yeah, because compared to the damage it had before where they, you know, they blurted it. What about increasing her cool downs and making her the one that reduces it on her shot, her primary, it the crossbow? What if that gives more time off her cool down? So it's like more important.

RauKnows (54:40.91)
you

Death And Gaming (54:55.083)
Yeah, the primary, yeah.

Coach Mills (55:02.655)
I mean, that's gonna help people that are more skilled, right? That's just gonna make her stronger and hire Elia though. I think that's kind of the fear.

Death And Gaming (55:07.747)
Yeah, I mean that's what they did. They already buffed that cooldown reduction in the last patch and now it's one of those things where if you are inactive, if you're slow on Psylocke, it definitely punishes you. like I said, because they took away her burst, which was the frustrating thing people had going up against her, it just felt like she could just instant delete you sometimes. Now it's more about how she uses her abilities and the more abilities she uses, the more time you have to react, the more time you have to do stuff.

I've played Psylocke through every single season, good or bad, she's always been my go-to pick. this is the... I've seen people say, Phoenix is one nerf away from making Psylocke S-tier broken. So I'm worried about changing her from where she's at right now, because I'm like, she's strong, but you're still not going to bump into that many Psylocke players that are that good and ranked. Like, I haven't at least.

RauKnows (56:00.696)
Yeah, you don't really see her below Celestial, and honestly, I think she's one of the easier counterable hit scans in the game. Like, you have a Loki, you have a Dee Dee, you have an Angela, it just immediately changes her entire playstyle.

Coach Mills (56:10.879)
That's one of the arguments to not rework Corole and keep it this auto-doing for you all because it would just nerf people that are underneath Celestial by a lot.

Captain Coach (56:19.97)
What? Well, that's kind of the idea. So I kind of thought you have an option to go for less high priority targets that are easier to hit and get that instant guaranteed value off. I mean, think that's clearly an intended part of her design from a playability standpoint. That's why I get why they have the alt. But yeah, obviously, it'd be cool if they had something cooler.

Coach Mills (56:44.479)
Yeah, I mean, just, kind of just, I just feel like you ruined the perfect hero fantasy for people that are all about Sai. Like people that are all about Sai, want, if you're drawn to an all skill character, you don't want an autopilot at all. Like it just doesn't make sense. Like.

Death And Gaming (56:44.717)
Yeah.

RauKnows (56:58.222)
It's like 76 and overwatch is like all the aim training players play 76 But then his ultimate is completely counterintuitive to the player base who plays them

Death And Gaming (56:58.744)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (56:58.819)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (57:06.525)
Yeah. Like, like, like Hulk or I mean Cap. Imagine if Hulk's ultimate was like Emma ult or some shit. Like, like it's just like, I mean it wouldn't make it. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what's going on here is it's like you're, playing a high school character that has a high school neutral and then he has a high school ultimate. I, I don't like that, but I, mean, I can, I could say no change. I like, I understand the idea of no change and like I understand her place. She would just be very bad and low elo if her, her ultimate.

RauKnows (57:15.01)
You go from mechanics to just LOS-ing.

Coach Mills (57:35.145)
took a lot of skill to use so I should just be terrible.

RauKnows (57:37.058)
But we don't need, I don't know how devs feel, we don't need characters to be valuable with every elo, I think that's fine. Like my-

Captain Coach (57:41.944)
Yeah, I mean, we have to kind of define what we're changing it for here.

Death And Gaming (57:42.243)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (57:44.177)
Yeah. Yeah, I would put her I would put her more in the rework. I would rework her ultimately personally, but I don't know what do you all vote for?

RauKnows (57:50.99)
So I'd say rework my thoughts on her. She's in a great place. She's one of the most counterable heroes. If you did anything to the ult, I don't think you need a full rework. What I've always wanted is maybe a little bit more damage on the first slash or make the first slash target the last target you hit and have it faster. So like the rest of it can be an RNG, but what my favorite thing to do back in season zero before people knew what to do with their ult was I would go for a combo and her ult would be a part of my combo. So.

Coach Mills (58:07.74)
okay.

RauKnows (58:19.726)
primary shuriken dash ultimate in that first slash boom kills him. And then sometimes I just end it right after that. It was just like a guaranteed seal of death on whoever I went for a combo on.

Coach Mills (58:28.999)
That makes sense that it would target the first person or the last person you hit. It makes a lot of sense.

Death And Gaming (58:34.457)
I'm gonna tell you right now that I use my alt primarily to solo alt people all the time in Psylocke currently. So like...

RauKnows (58:37.858)
Yep. Yep.

Coach Mills (58:38.079)
But like you you wouldn't have to do like you could be a little bit more it would be harder to patty cake You know with random bullshit, right? Yeah, okay

Captain Coach (58:40.238)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (58:47.14)
I got solo out did it by a silo on Ultron when I was really high up because she got to this little like pillar and I like

Coach Mills (58:51.963)
Hehehehe Sometimes that sh-

RauKnows (58:55.352)
Please, my god, the devs see this, please fix the fucking ramp thing. Her ultimate can't hit people on stairs or ramps. It is so tilting. If they are slightly below you, you will be slashing air and they're just standing inside of your old.

Death And Gaming (59:02.947)
Yeah, it's, it's...

Coach Mills (59:04.787)
I saw.

Death And Gaming (59:12.023)
It's based off the LOS of the character model, not like you or the circle. Yeah.

Coach Mills (59:12.263)
I saw one by... yeah. Jesus. Cause I saw a clip by Potato, he tried to solo a Luna and it was like... There was just a little wall and it was just like blocking the whole fucking thing. Anyways, okay, we gotta speed this up, we gotta move on, we gotta move on. Next character. Fast Takes, Fast Takes. Okay. Alright, Wanda, Wanda. What's everyone's fast take on this character?

RauKnows (59:14.83)
Yeah.

RauKnows (59:20.908)
Yeah, she just stood there.

Death And Gaming (59:28.953)
Fast takes, fast takes only now.

Death And Gaming (59:35.032)
Rework.

Captain Coach (59:36.898)
Wanda.

Death And Gaming (59:38.926)
Rework.

RauKnows (59:39.406)
Perfectly fine. It's a lower-ranked player that a character that helps anti-dive lever be I die Okay, okay, okay

Coach Mills (59:44.575)
See, I just- I actually hard disagree, unfortunately. I think she needs to be completely reworked. This character is terrible. She's worthless. I- I- I- I- I know, but like, I like it when characters scale linearly. Like, get better if the character get more value. I hate it when it's like... Eee-

Captain Coach (59:47.076)
She's complete rework. I agree.

RauKnows (59:52.664)
But she's so good in low ranks and she does her job in low ranks. that?

Captain Coach (59:59.47)
This this.

Death And Gaming (01:00:00.279)
I think you can still do both.

Captain Coach (01:00:03.054)
Since this character is not what we consider seriously competitive, I'm going to take the lead on this one and say she is so far away from her actual identity as a Marvel hero that she needs a rework. Forget balance, forget anything. She's not in the meta now, so it doesn't matter. Rework her. Yeah, give her, she should have as many abilities as Black Cat does, as many spells. It'd be so cool, bro.

Coach Mills (01:00:11.919)
Yeah

Death And Gaming (01:00:12.515)
Yeah.

wanted to be a sorceress. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:00:21.075)
She could be like a magician. We talked about who could be a magician. We talked about that last pod. It can fucking be her.

Death And Gaming (01:00:23.917)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:00:26.773)
She's the lamest realization of a hero in the entire game. she's just so far off of what she should be. She is fun to play,

Death And Gaming (01:00:31.225)
I

Coach Mills (01:00:32.927)
They can rework her primary, they can rework her old, they can rework her like Yeah, no, I mean I don't know. I- Let's go! Like and subscribe! Unless you play Wanda! Fuck you! No, I'm just kidding,

RauKnows (01:00:33.484)
for.

Captain Coach (01:00:39.31)
She's gotta be re-words.

RauKnows (01:00:40.878)
And make sure you guys like and subscribe by the way. I wanna see, now I genuinely wanna see in the, I wanna see in the comments of what, do you guys actually think, cause she has such a passionate community. She's hot, I get it. yeah. the Wanda community on Twitter and stuff, like very much has a community behind her. Do you guys believe if she wasn't as easy, she would have as passionate of a community?

Death And Gaming (01:00:43.256)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:00:48.452)
haha

Captain Coach (01:00:54.084)
Wait, really?

Death And Gaming (01:01:04.866)
so.

Coach Mills (01:01:05.267)
mean, you could still give, we could still give her value at the skill floor. I think that's perfectly fine to give her value at the skill floor. I just want linear value that goes up towards a higher skill ceiling. That's all I want. Yeah, I mean, you could that, like, there's just, the sky's the limit for what you could do with this character. And it just, yeah, anyways, let's move on. I just don't like, I hate fucking hate Moira, bro. It's just Moira, DPS, Moira, anyways, let's move on.

Captain Coach (01:01:06.084)
What do mean by easy?

RauKnows (01:01:17.582)
So give her headshots on her primer.

Death And Gaming (01:01:21.081)
something.

RauKnows (01:01:34.136)
DPS more is better though DPS more is a demon

Coach Mills (01:01:35.569)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:01:36.825)
That was, you had to play her that way, there was no other way.

Coach Mills (01:01:39.647)
Yeah.

Eee, Doris! I-

RauKnows (01:01:43.246)
I'll let you guys handle this one.

Captain Coach (01:01:44.664)
We talked about this last week, so I think we can do this one pretty quick, Mills. Let's hear it, Dad. Let's not corrupt him.

Coach Mills (01:01:48.497)
Well, no, no, the people have not watched every episode. gotta, we gotta hear, they gotta hear what it takes.

Death And Gaming (01:01:51.833)
I think it was funny how there was both a funeral held for him and also like a celebratory. He's the best after like the latest change all in the same like week because you know, based off of. Yeah, they were not mentioned. Yeah. And then afterwards, like, yeah, when you actually see the way he is now, I think he's in a good spot. And I think that the player base just needs to catch on to the fact that he's actually good again. You know, when you watch players like.

RauKnows (01:02:01.261)
Ha

Coach Mills (01:02:02.783)
Well, then we were a lot too fair. And as there was a lot of changes that were not said in the patch notes.

Death And Gaming (01:02:20.695)
like mics above you play torch, you're like, wow, this character actually looks really fun. I think he's actually in a good spot. think he's one of those, I think they've gone through the highs and the lows and I think they're in a good spot now finally. So I'd say no change.

Captain Coach (01:02:31.192)
He, I think he needs a rework. I think his identity as like this ranged, like zone control, like burst mage, like he's got like, he doesn't really have any identity that he's really good at. And he's not anywhere close to what I would imagine Torch would be like to play. Again, same thing I said about Wanda, like does not hold up to what he, like, yeah, he's like shooting through the sky.

Coach Mills (01:02:34.439)
you too.

Coach Mills (01:02:59.167)
He doesn't- bro has he ever done this? Has he ever done this a single time in the- in the game? Like, I think of this character as like a fast moving, fast flying character. Not a... I'm gonna sit here.

Captain Coach (01:03:01.758)
No! It's-

Captain Coach (01:03:09.07)
Here's, yeah, so like.

RauKnows (01:03:11.982)
Spam out, yeah.

Captain Coach (01:03:12.792)
So I'm thinking make him very fast, very mobile, keep his identity as a zone control like mage type, but he applies the burn through going in like that snake game where he'll...

Coach Mills (01:03:24.633)
he has to be touching the ground. Okay, I see what saying.

RauKnows (01:03:27.032)
So are you talking like an Angela style if he physically has to put himself where he wants to?

Captain Coach (01:03:31.614)
Yeah, maybe the flames can fall a little below where he is. it's, but yeah. So like, like singe, singe from league of legends, if you're familiar with that game. So really fast, hard to hit when he's like that kind of like Spider-Man creates that zone control, but he still has that burst element. If he catches someone in the good fight.

RauKnows (01:03:34.52)
Chemtrails.

Coach Mills (01:03:35.736)
Yeah

Death And Gaming (01:03:36.569)
Yeah, okay, okay, I could be down with this. I could be down with this idea, actually.

Coach Mills (01:03:46.461)
That's because in the movies he's always painting the floor, you know with his body. He's not he's not You know placing things. I like that. I like that. I like that

Captain Coach (01:03:54.98)
Torch to me is arguably one of the worst designed heroes in the game and it's such a shame because I think he's, you know, in the comics like one of the coolest.

Coach Mills (01:04:05.755)
It's kind of yeah, the same thing with the Ultron problem. Like just a character that could be way more popular than they are if they were just... I actually don't hate the current kit, but I would like it if they like reduce the slam damage by half, put it on a 10 second cooldown instead of a 20 second cooldown and gave it two charges. What that would basically do is make it so that he could just be in the fight a lot more. Cause like right now, 20 second cooldown on your slam means that if you ever have to run away, you're useless for 20 seconds. Like you can't do shit.

Death And Gaming (01:04:08.141)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:04:28.76)
Yep.

Captain Coach (01:04:29.592)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:04:32.857)
20 seconds is an insane cooldown.

Coach Mills (01:04:35.775)
But I get that it's a really strong cooldown, so just massively reduce the damage, give him way more mobility. And then I actually really do like the snake trail idea combined with that. I think that it's a completely different character. He's zooming in, he's slamming around, he's getting up close in person. mean, his primary is a fucking shotgun. Like that's like, he could definitely be better.

Death And Gaming (01:04:40.185)
Yeah, I agree.

RauKnows (01:04:57.23)
was excited for a fly. I remember reacting to his initial trailer and being excited about a flying diver. And then it just ended up being an AC-130. It's like it was a complete opposite.

Coach Mills (01:05:05.651)
Yeah, right. that's kind of, that goes along with what we talked about is like, if a character can permafly, they need to be, they need to take risks to do damage. so I want him to have to get low to the ground, like Cap said, or have to be right on top of someone to do damage to them reliably, not sitting above. And then his whole identity is different. And it's like a better character, I think. I would love to see what Mike could do on that version of the character. I think he'd just go crazy.

Death And Gaming (01:05:33.827)
That would be cool.

Coach Mills (01:05:38.523)
Okay, TAKE BALL!

Captain Coach (01:05:39.766)
All right, Coach Mills. Take it away.

Death And Gaming (01:05:41.337)
Which mills take it away?

Coach Mills (01:05:43.443)
We're reverting back buff him up. No, I'm scared. I'm kidding. So I I I know that this character is still really really really fucking good. I Don't it's it's it's kind of hard because I think he's he has some of the same problems I guess it's sire you could call him promise but like Unless you're in the top ranks of play like celestial plus right now You're feeling these changes a lot. Like I still think he's a top three tank in the game one of the best kids in the game

Captain Coach (01:05:46.788)
You

Coach Mills (01:06:13.075)
but I can understand people that are kind of struggling with him. What I would really like to see them do is give him a reason to use his swords, give him a reason to upgrade his sword ults. And maybe that comes at the cost of reducing some of his other stuff. Maybe his primary damage, maybe his gun ult more. We can nerf those things, but I would love to see the sword ult being reasonable and the swords themselves being reasonable.

I don't know what that looks like. Maybe you double down on the fact that it gives your team shields. So you make it kind of like a pseudo-defensible in a pinch if you need it. I don't know. right now he's just basically pistols and that's it. I don't know. What do y'all think about him?

RauKnows (01:06:54.008)
I think he suffers from the cloak and dagger thing of the single stance because I think you could make the same change across all of them just in different ways. Tank pool needs more swords, or duelist pool needs more gun, strap pool. I'm not sure where he stands between the, but it fit. I was so excited to have an active. He has a really fluid stance swap. And I liked it. I liked the idea of like you do a dash, pop out your gun, shoot a shot, do a dash, pop out like back and forth, back and forth. And it doesn't feel like that. Duals pool is literally just a melee character.

And I know we're talking about Tank Bull, but it's the same. He's a gun character. Just have more fluidity. A reason to switch.

Coach Mills (01:07:28.093)
Right. Yeah, I can definitely see that. What do think, Cap? I know you know that you think this character is really strong.

Captain Coach (01:07:35.362)
Yeah, mean, reallocate maybe a bit of his power into the melee. I kind of agree. I feel like the guns do way too much damage. Yeah, I would say nerf, yeah, nerf. Cause that's like, slight nerf.

Coach Mills (01:07:43.881)
Cause that would, that would nerf him if they did that. Cause that, that, that, is a nerf to him, but it's, you know, it's right, right. You could also probably get rid of his team up with Jeff, to be honest, that thing is fucking busted, but that we got to, there's a lot we got to talk about when we get to Jeff cause Jeff is just absurd. Yeah. I actually do think a slight nerf, it's, it's weird cause it's more of a rework in the fact that we're just taking

RauKnows (01:07:50.606)
Because then he's physically displacing himself, for sure.

RauKnows (01:07:58.766)
Why does Jeff have like three team ups with people?

RauKnows (01:08:09.398)
It's a rebalancing in a way.

Coach Mills (01:08:10.215)
yeah, cause I think if you, if you nerf his guns and increase his swords and stuff, I think that actually buffs him in like most ELOs because they already use their swords a lot or they try to weave in swords a lot. but like, of course it's going to make him worse in the highest to highest peaks because it's all about just guns and holding off angles at those peaks. Like that's all you're doing is just like contesting genes on an off angle, which is going to be harder if your guns are weaker. Right. but.

Death And Gaming (01:08:11.191)
that.

Death And Gaming (01:08:18.84)
Now.

Coach Mills (01:08:37.311)
If nerf but like minor it's made more of a readjustment, but not really what I would call a rework either Yeah, yeah, okay

Death And Gaming (01:08:41.303)
Yeah, nothing crazy.

RauKnows (01:08:43.054)
Now rework is like a core fundamental change to the kit.

Coach Mills (01:08:49.737)
We're gonna try to do these relatively fast, because there's still a lot to go through. So we'll move on to the next one. ooh, Magneto.

RauKnows (01:08:53.582)
We're moving now.

RauKnows (01:08:57.826)
Find where he is. Is it crazy? I used to hate this character. I actually, like genuinely, he's fine.

Coach Mills (01:09:00.286)
Hahaha!

Death And Gaming (01:09:00.631)
I think it's fine. He's fine. He enables...

Captain Coach (01:09:04.586)
I agree. It's fine.

Coach Mills (01:09:05.001)
Give me a different team up bro. Don't give me a team up on a character that's always fucking banned man. Give me a team up.

Captain Coach (01:09:10.924)
The only thing I would say with Mag, you gotta make his reload timer less. Like that is so obnoxious. Just get rid of the reload timer.

Death And Gaming (01:09:11.097)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:09:16.703)
What if what if you hit a full charge CC it reloads your gun boom there it is, okay Some characters shouldn't even have a reload that's my hot take a lot of characters should not have a fucking hot I like reload

Captain Coach (01:09:24.748)
just get rid of it.

RauKnows (01:09:26.228)
animation canceling is reload like strange.

Captain Coach (01:09:31.682)
Yeah, animation cancel would be good.

RauKnows (01:09:34.123)
Storm having to reload her air.

Captain Coach (01:09:35.83)
Yeah, Mag's got to reload metal or something. Like what?

Death And Gaming (01:09:36.761)
Hehehe.

Coach Mills (01:09:37.755)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. Do you have anything you want to say there, Death? No. He's fine. He's kind of the standard. The gold standard.

Death And Gaming (01:09:43.991)
Nah, he's fine. He does his job well. Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:09:46.692)
They should bring this... They should bring this single bu- single bubble back, I think, but they're like minor things.

Death And Gaming (01:09:53.387)
No, they did that so that way people could solo tank and not lose their mines.

Coach Mills (01:09:57.172)
Ha

Captain Coach (01:09:58.628)
That's true. Well, you just give the bubble to yourself anyway. Just had a flashback.

RauKnows (01:10:01.048)
Please don't say solo tank. We want subscribers, not comments about solo tanking.

Death And Gaming (01:10:02.155)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:10:04.689)
The- Hehehehehe

Death And Gaming (01:10:05.783)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:10:10.175)
This I don't I don't think this character needs any changes yet. I might this might be a hot day Y'all think she needs a different. I know this character is really strong I think this is one of the healthiest characters to be meta that we've seen in a long time because it's not like a gamut meta that is Dominated by ultimates or a Luna meta that's dominated by ultimates Or a triple support meta that's dominated by ultimates It's a character that dominates with their neutral, which I actually like maybe it's too it's too forward, but I like

Death And Gaming (01:10:10.443)
He's a nerve.

Captain Coach (01:10:14.254)
Nah, she needs a nerf. I've seen enough. I've seen enough.

Death And Gaming (01:10:24.601)
agree with that though.

Coach Mills (01:10:39.763)
that there's a support that's so good that is not good because of their ultimate.

Death And Gaming (01:10:44.569)
I'm actually gonna change how much I don't it's not nerf I agree with you I think that we should have no change and just kind of like let it play out for a little bit first like yeah she's strong but it's okay that she's strong she's not broken like Gambit

RauKnows (01:10:55.298)
feel like, yeah, we're just playing the stock market game of we buffed her too soon, we shouldn't nerf her too soon. Like, just let it settle. Just let it be.

Coach Mills (01:11:00.831)
We did buffer too soon, we definitely did buffer too soon She would put in hindsight she probably would have been just fine without it. it's kind of You're all wrong. I to kiss us you're all wrong

Death And Gaming (01:11:01.966)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:11:02.532)
your, your

RauKnows (01:11:05.388)
Jesus Christ, it was like one week. was like, come on.

Captain Coach (01:11:10.328)
your

RauKnows (01:11:13.622)
She would have, yeah.

Captain Coach (01:11:14.479)
You're all wrong. You're all wrong. You're all wrong. She needs nerfs. And whether you realize it now or in like a couple of months from now, that's all I... Yeah. Me and a Black Panther were diving a white fox the other night, full uptime on her, even predicted her dashes and like bubbled her little knockup, just punching the shit out of her and she's just life stealing me.

Death And Gaming (01:11:14.777)
To be fair though, people were complaining the first week.

RauKnows (01:11:23.958)
Raise your hand if you play Melee.

Coach Mills (01:11:27.187)
The character is definitely way better against Melee than she is against Hitscan for sure!

RauKnows (01:11:31.255)
You

RauKnows (01:11:35.118)
You just beat some ass.

Captain Coach (01:11:43.01)
The whole time, just health bar just going up, not even getting any help. Drain tanking two divers, like what? Broken.

RauKnows (01:11:46.2)
Here are

Coach Mills (01:11:47.967)
I mean, I'm not gonna lie, Captain Kyoji, this character was made in a lab to counter your hero and your hero bowl. Like, I'm not gonna lie.

RauKnows (01:11:53.144)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:11:53.252)
A little catwoman, guess, the... Hulks Bane, she's utterly busted. People aren't playing her right. People try to play her at heel buttons.

Coach Mills (01:11:57.809)
I I- yeah...

Coach Mills (01:12:05.03)
No, I 100 % agree that the character is insane like insane so good But but here's the thing. Here's the thing is she stronger than Jeff is right now. I don't think so I don't think she is I mean, I know we'll get there

Captain Coach (01:12:09.732)
She's not like,

Captain Coach (01:12:14.734)
She's...

RauKnows (01:12:15.128)
She's stronger at the peak, but Jeff is just such a consistent dead value.

Coach Mills (01:12:18.515)
I don't know the peaks of dead, if you get Jeff with pool and venom team up, that character is fucking stupid. Like just insane. But I have been seeing some stupid stuff with like off angling white fox, playing with someone and they just never die. They're just like a mobile unit.

Captain Coach (01:12:19.299)
I agree.

Captain Coach (01:12:36.036)
It's... She's a character that people are gonna need some time to figure out what her limits are and once they do, this character is... everybody's gonna be asking to ban it.

Coach Mills (01:12:45.247)
We can definitely, once she gets, once she starts getting consistently banned, I think we know for, but right now I think it might be a little too soon. Like, like Rick Rouse said, we're playing the stock market. That's actually a great, great analogy.

RauKnows (01:12:46.91)
Our core kit is really well designed though.

Death And Gaming (01:12:57.325)
I agree.

RauKnows (01:12:58.414)
I'll give a tip to people and maybe this will also help them see the value of anti-dive on her. I don't know how you feel of death, but people don't utilize her primary for marking enough. People don't understand the value of marking compared to peel. Marking is when you shoot someone prior to an engage to make their engage shorter or push them away. Her primary bounces off walls. If I'm staging as a Psylocke and she hits two off a wall or a Spider-Man or something, you can't engage. Yeah, and people don't understand the value of that.

Death And Gaming (01:13:20.695)
You can't go in. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:13:25.591)
I'm glad death just has to deal with Kiriko in every fucking timeline like no matter what no matter what you can't can't run away It's actually funny No, like don't get me wrong like I know this character's busted and I do think this character will get nerfed eventually I am happy though that like I've seen a dramatic uptick in the amount of double support players I get on a team since she's been released like by a landslide This is one of the most popular supports or characters that they've ever released

Death And Gaming (01:13:25.593)
I think that people are catching up.

No matter where I go, I cannot escape this hero.

RauKnows (01:13:32.714)
I was a tracer player, yeah, no it's... Yeah!

Death And Gaming (01:13:34.615)
Yeah, okay, yeah, you and I have the same brain then, so...

Captain Coach (01:13:38.818)
Love it.

Captain Coach (01:13:48.484)
True.

Death And Gaming (01:13:49.527)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:13:51.737)
Yep.

Death And Gaming (01:13:51.865)
Yeah.

RauKnows (01:13:54.73)
lot of duelists converted over to her.

Coach Mills (01:13:56.199)
And I also like that she doesn't play just this boring front to back play style that like, are we really gonna get another like, Invis type character, just to support that just does like the same thing, stand behind their team, output whatever utility and then have an ult that doesn't, no one dies. I was getting scared. They were gonna keep doing that over and over again. And they didn't, so she might be busted, but at least it's not that.

RauKnows (01:14:20.32)
It encourages, it's like what I said about Spider-Man earlier, is making a character that encourages the correct playstyle, that's White Fox. it, Kyrko, it encouraged making dumb plays and making mistakes, White Fox, it encourages going with your duelist and going do something.

Coach Mills (01:14:30.407)
Hehehe

Captain Coach (01:14:32.322)
Yeah, and especially right now, I'll say if you're a support player who isn't actively trying to go deal damage in your games right now, you are definitely misplaying. is a lot, there's a neutral game is a long period now. And I think a lot of the best yores are the ones who are able to get in there and finish people off, help people finish people off.

Death And Gaming (01:14:53.657)
A lot of thoughts on that one later too, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:14:54.047)
100%.

Captain Coach (01:14:56.024)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:14:58.303)
All right, speed around here. Hopefully not too much to talk about with this character, Emma.

Death And Gaming (01:15:03.705)
needs a slight buff.

Captain Coach (01:15:04.842)
What are they doing with this hero? Like they don't know what they're doing with Emma.

RauKnows (01:15:05.493)
Yeah, slight buff. She needs more uptime on her beam, that's about it.

Coach Mills (01:15:08.767)
I don't think that Emma is as bad as people say she is, but I do think that she's just clunky as hell, personally.

Captain Coach (01:15:16.478)
They need to go back to making tanks tanky. her diamond, she's, you can melt this hero now if she's out of position. Like, I don't know. I kind of.

RauKnows (01:15:23.394)
She dies in her ult so easily. Her ult is just...

Captain Coach (01:15:26.404)
Which is weird because she has 20... Yeah, go ahead.

Coach Mills (01:15:26.993)
Is it weird for her ult to make her unkillable? Is that, would that be too strong? Or would that be, you think so? If she's just unkillable in her ultimate?

Death And Gaming (01:15:35.001)
Oh yeah. Unkillable? Yeah. But maybe if she went into diamond form and then ulted so she had damage reduction too, like, Oh, did they?

Captain Coach (01:15:36.396)
Yeah, that'd be a...

RauKnows (01:15:42.552)
They gave her partial damage reduction on the recent patch, right? They gave a portion of the diamond mode to it, I think, but...

Coach Mills (01:15:45.759)
I think they did, yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:15:48.83)
I'd be curious to see what the win rates are now then.

Coach Mills (01:15:49.823)
I feel like I've been preaching this forever. Can we just make it so that her cut scene is like a third or a fourth of the time with her grab and then just reduce that cool down so it's not just such a massive cool down so she can play make more? I feel like she just gets one impactful play making ability in what is it, 20 seconds?

RauKnows (01:16:10.35)
Is it crazy to say, kind of give the iron fist treatment? Well, I can talk about him later, but making a separate ability. Because people talk about her having a one shot. I saw this on a video the other day. But to get a one shot, you give up your only ability to stay alive. So it's worth it, but is it not?

Coach Mills (01:16:25.407)
I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, It's so funny. TikTok one shots is just like, like, like, like a five, five. look at this new Hulk one shot. It's like a giant juggle.

RauKnows (01:16:30.363)
Yeah, one shot seventeen button combo.

Death And Gaming (01:16:34.069)
Yeah

RauKnows (01:16:36.386)
Look at this bat-black cat combo if you use every single dash and every single cooldown, you kill them.

Captain Coach (01:16:36.511)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:16:40.64)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:16:41.124)
They should make her tankier, get rid of her one shot since most of the Yemmas can't do it anyway, which by the way, isn't the grab kick, it's the mind crystal that she pulls out of your head that does percentage damage. It's obnoxious and it shouldn't be doing more damage to tanks. To me, that big of an allocation is actually like reallocation of like power. To me, I would like to see this character like mini reworked and like kind of push more to the direction of like able to hold space, but you shouldn't.

always just die right when you go in. She should be like this ramp up type here, like mid-range ramp up. And that's really the identity I think she should hold. And the fact that she can just one shot anyone who comes in, it kind of like, it's counterintuitive. Emma's not even that good right now, because all the brawl can either out fight her close up and kill her real quick, or just avoid her. Like Hulk has used to struggle with Emma. yeah, and I talked to the rank one Emma.

Coach Mills (01:17:32.297)
She does have super shit mobility. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I'm happy that she's not great right now. Cause I hate Metis with Emma and them. I'm not gonna lie. Maybe that means she needs a rework, but I, as a tank player, I think she's one of the characters that has caused me the most misery is Emma in Metis.

RauKnows (01:17:32.322)
Yeah, she sucks in to dive because she can't build charge off of anyone.

Captain Coach (01:17:41.058)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:17:49.38)
I think she needs a rework, I really do. I truly believe that. And Ply, you know Ply, Rank, I think he probably shares a similar sentiment. Maybe not full rework, but he really stresses on how much the percentage damage is just too much and it kind of breaks the character if you can do it and if not, you know.

Coach Mills (01:17:57.682)
yeah.

Coach Mills (01:18:13.545)
Yeah, I think we could justify reducing or removing her percentage damage and then just giving her lot more survivability in this, like in the new state of the game. She just doesn't have any comparatively to other characters. You could maybe make her shield a little bigger too. Maybe. Yeah. What do you think of death? You fine with all this? Okay.

Captain Coach (01:18:25.08)
feel like most tanks don't. Yeah. It'd be cool.

RauKnows (01:18:31.758)
That's tough one. That's fun.

Death And Gaming (01:18:33.305)
Rework her buff, you know, just something. Give her a little something. She's not terrible right now, but...

Captain Coach (01:18:42.926)
been in the wheel.

Captain Coach (01:18:46.82)
cloak.

RauKnows (01:18:47.096)
Crazy to say, it's like Mag, it's almost perfect.

Death And Gaming (01:18:50.21)
I'd agree. I think...

Coach Mills (01:18:50.567)
I think this character is perfect, yeah. I think this character is perfect. Everybody just stop banning them, because they're killable. You can just kill them. Yeah, it was always a waste.

Captain Coach (01:18:52.43)
Cloak and dagger, yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:18:55.107)
Can you stop banning Cloak and Dagger, please? It was a waste last season, it's a waste this season. If you're going to ban a character, yeah, ban a character that is a stronger neutral like Invisibles. There's no reason that someone who just does straight healing or straight damage is that good.

RauKnows (01:18:56.394)
Hahaha!

Coach Mills (01:19:04.763)
Yeah, 100%.

RauKnows (01:19:10.424)
think she's a low rank band, that's about it. Like, low diamond and below. Because of consistent value, but...

Death And Gaming (01:19:12.633)
Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. She's not. She's fine. It's not that bad.

Captain Coach (01:19:17.348)
No, I totally agree.

Coach Mills (01:19:19.423)
Yeah, actually, maybe a team up would be cool, we can just do no change.

Death And Gaming (01:19:27.737)
Yeah, no team up change. She's got that Psylocke change, which is really good.

Coach Mills (01:19:29.267)
I'm always scared of adding support team ups because some of them end up being really, really, really strong. already blackhead.

Captain Coach (01:19:35.211)
Ooh, black cat.

RauKnows (01:19:36.994)
This is exactly why you don't buff or nerf characters too soon. Imagine they would have listened to people and buffed her.

Coach Mills (01:19:41.171)
Yeah, everyone was exactly everyone was saying this character was ass the first like five days of the game or for release and now People have they're trying to

Death And Gaming (01:19:47.925)
Now they're keeping that propaganda going so that way she can get buffs. But everyone knows, like, no.

Captain Coach (01:19:53.118)
I just want to say I called it. called it. said, go back and look. I said this character was going to be pick ban gigabusted on release. I saw how much utility she had and I knew they weren't going to make a character like this. Not have never.

Coach Mills (01:19:57.983)
Yup.

Coach Mills (01:20:04.573)
I just... Just...

RauKnows (01:20:06.114)
Was it crazy to say it has nothing to do with her utility? Like she actually ended up being so busted because of her scratch, her... because you spend money on the utility a little bit, but it's just the amount of animation cancels and uptime that this character has. Because you don't use half of the shop.

Coach Mills (01:20:20.115)
I just, just right before this, I watched a light clip where he literally just killed the entire fucking team. like the character just moon boots around and like if you hit all your cool downs, you just fucking kill everybody. They can't do anything.

Captain Coach (01:20:20.195)
Yeah, she.

Death And Gaming (01:20:26.041)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:20:30.756)
Yeah.

RauKnows (01:20:30.83)
What do you guys feel about the infinite double jump?

Death And Gaming (01:20:34.105)
I

Coach Mills (01:20:34.111)
I mean, like, I honestly, I like the character. I think that, I mean, maybe you don't really like melee characters, Rao. know you're, you, yeah.

Captain Coach (01:20:34.244)
It's annoying.

RauKnows (01:20:44.142)
No, I actually on my melee account, Spider-Man, Magic, and Black Out are my top three with like 70 % win rates. Yeah, she's fun.

Coach Mills (01:20:47.843)
nice. Like, I think this character when played at close to the ceiling, like this character's insane and I think this character's only gonna get insane like more with time, but I think it's probably too early to nerf this character. Like I wanna see this character in pro play, I wanna see this character at the highest levels, I wanna see this character to the point where they're banned all the time, cause like right now, if you're like underneath Celestial, this character is not really that crazy menace Thanos character and I would like to see more time.

RauKnows (01:20:55.406)
.

RauKnows (01:21:05.624)
see the extents of what you can do.

Coach Mills (01:21:17.939)
with the character allowed to exist, you know, in the state that they're in. I kind of just, I don't want to be too quick. It's the same thing with White Fox. It's like, we don't need to nerf these characters right away, even if they're a little bit strong right now, because they're not, you know, pre, they're not Elsa strong or like, like these insane launch gambit strong. Like those characters are obviously like, League's too strong. I think you could give this character a sizable nerf and then she's not really that good, which I don't want them to do. That's.

RauKnows (01:21:23.148)
And if you struggle against their flyers or...

RauKnows (01:21:44.75)
don't know if they did on purpose, but I really like that she faces away from the person you ult to. I know if you guys know, she teleports to behind them looking away. I do like that because it adds a 180 mechanic. If she was facing them, I actually think that would make her so much easier and kinda crew. Yeah, I wanna see what people can do with her before going crazy on her.

Death And Gaming (01:22:02.723)
I think she's one of those characters that has lot of nuance.

Captain Coach (01:22:05.165)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:22:06.015)
What do think, what do you think, Cap? You think doing no change here for now is not aggressive enough or?

Captain Coach (01:22:11.844)
You can't see me because I have sunglasses on, but I'm rolling my eyes at all of you. Yeah, no, had to go against a black cat lord on Rocket. And yeah, like you said, Raoul, they spend their money on the whip. Right, yeah, and came in, killed me faster than I've ever been killed by any kind of diver.

Coach Mills (01:22:16.185)
hahahahah

RauKnows (01:22:16.629)
Hahaha!

RauKnows (01:22:32.684)
It feels so good to kill Jeff and Finn. God damn it, I hate using hitscan against Jeff in his Finn mode. But Black Hat just eats them alive.

Death And Gaming (01:22:37.507)
Can't hit him.

Coach Mills (01:22:39.282)
Hehehehe

Captain Coach (01:22:39.727)
I'll never die to dive as Rocket, at least not a single dive. And she killed me faster. She's busted. People just don't realize it yet. She needs a nerf, 100 % needs a nerf. And even if they nerf the whip, I still think she'd be OP. like I said, her utility is just through the roof. Like the grounding, god, I hate it. I-

Coach Mills (01:22:59.411)
We were you you gotta let our boy light pop off in pro play bro. He needs a second diver Let him cook for a couple let him cook I I know but one of he they can't ban both of them like before the problem is they could ban him out Well, then they have to ban everything. You know what I'm saying? Like it's a lot harder like as a true dive specialist. It's a lot easier for him to Dominate a tournament when they they would have to invest bands into all their bullshit They would leave open game give him give him a couple of tournaments, man

Captain Coach (01:23:05.194)
He says Daredevil is better than Black Cat.

Captain Coach (01:23:11.714)
They can though.

Captain Coach (01:23:25.512)
All right. All right. Light, light, light if you're watching. got, no, no, just kidding. Nerf black cat. Fucking nerfer. Fucking.

Coach Mills (01:23:29.855)
He said fuck you, fuck your pro career. Nerve Daredevil 2, let's move on. All right, all right. Okay.

Death And Gaming (01:23:35.193)
Nerf them both.

Coach Mills (01:23:42.591)
Adam Warlock. Bring back Rezcomp. Let's stop fucking around. Rezcomp. What do y'all think? Rework. What do you think, death? Sobwan's boring.

Death And Gaming (01:23:46.915)
free work.

Rework.

Captain Coach (01:23:51.544)
I agree.

Death And Gaming (01:23:52.781)
Heal is boring, Soulbond is boring. Just give me something interesting.

RauKnows (01:23:54.958)
Like balancing wise I think he's in a perfect state, but yeah now he reworked

Captain Coach (01:23:56.598)
If Origins-

Captain Coach (01:24:02.148)
Yeah, his initial identity as a character, I actually really liked, but yeah, it didn't match really his aesthetic much at all as...

Coach Mills (01:24:09.215)
Do we make this character a two support? Support? Or do we keep him in triple? I mean, not with Soulbond on fucking 30 seconds or 40 seconds or whatever, how long Soulbond is, it's too long.

Death And Gaming (01:24:14.905)
I think already he can fit into two support support. It just depends on the types of people you have on your team.

Captain Coach (01:24:18.989)
Not with my atoms.

RauKnows (01:24:24.098)
love his mechanic of hitting headshots to have more health uptime. Like that is nice. I don't like that the last buff was lowering his floor by pushing more value into the charge shot. people already spam charge shot so much.

Coach Mills (01:24:27.729)
yeah.

Captain Coach (01:24:35.054)
Hmm. Yeah, the flying's kinda wacky and cool. It's fun.

Coach Mills (01:24:35.359)
Hmm.

What would you change Soulbond into or change that ability to to make the character instantly better if we were just trying to just rework Soulbond? Is there something that we could do to just Soulbond?

RauKnows (01:24:39.094)
You don't like the Iron Man flight?

RauKnows (01:24:52.354)
What if it was a lunaflake where you just sat it on like maybe I guess you guys don't like passive abilities, but maybe you place it on someone. Yeah, that's tough.

Coach Mills (01:24:57.479)
No, we want something like a playmaking ability would be kinda cool.

Captain Coach (01:24:58.414)
Nah.

Death And Gaming (01:25:00.673)
All supports need a playmaking ability to help encourage them to win games, I think. Like... Hmm.

Captain Coach (01:25:04.61)
I got it, I got it. Solban, whatever, it gives like increased healing or something to, like some kind of buff, whatever, but when it's on you, you get the Atom alt res and then give them a different alt.

RauKnows (01:25:17.922)
Yeah, like you put it on someone, get her if they die in that period of time, they would get res so they can go for a greedy play.

Coach Mills (01:25:22.495)
you just apply it to the people around you if they die within the next 20 seconds or 10 seconds or something. That might be busted as fuck though. That might be super strong. That might be super, that might be broken. I love Born Again, like as a guy, like his ultimate. I really do love it. It's so much aura.

Captain Coach (01:25:23.416)
Yeah. Right, so you could cancel out all the.

Death And Gaming (01:25:29.911)
No, no, no you

RauKnows (01:25:31.19)
Hahaha!

Captain Coach (01:25:33.452)
Well, do that every five seconds at talk. do that multiple times in a fight. I've canceled like four ultimates in one fight before.

RauKnows (01:25:35.822)
You

Death And Gaming (01:25:36.249)
All right. Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:25:43.844)
Think about flying in, soulbonding someone about to get hit by a Neymar ult, resing yourself, and then maybe give his ult. I don't know, what would make sense for a character like him? Maybe during his ult, can shoot while flying.

Coach Mills (01:25:56.809)
Hehehehe

You just want him to fly and kill people? I like his ult, I like his ult. What if his soulbond ability was like an AoE heal but it also like booped everyone away from him? I don't know.

Captain Coach (01:26:02.2)
Just completely change the hero.

RauKnows (01:26:11.714)
I don't want any more AoE heals or damage in this video game. Just I'm so sick of ultimates that are just heal or damage.

Coach Mills (01:26:15.065)
no, not a single one. Well, I mean, but that's the thing is like if you want him to make it to, if you want him to be a reliable to support support, the ability needs to be a healing ability. Like it has to be. Something kind of like bubble from cloak, but like not that, you know.

Captain Coach (01:26:22.957)
Yooo

Okay, I got it. One of his powers is energy manipulation. What if he could steal alt charge from the opponents and give them to teammates and that's his ult and it's just something you can do every 20 seconds. That'd be, and then his rez was his soul bomb.

Coach Mills (01:26:40.304)
God.

Bye bye

RauKnows (01:26:44.878)
actually wouldn't mind having more characters like Rogue that manipulate ult charge.

Coach Mills (01:26:48.396)
My man wants him to be busted! He wants him to be busted!

Captain Coach (01:26:48.994)
That would be so, dude, hit, Adam's alts are so unreliable. they're most.

RauKnows (01:26:55.222)
My favorite is when an Adam purposely loses his team's fight by going to rez like 10 seconds before the fight's even over just to rez them in a bad spot and then they get rolled again.

Captain Coach (01:27:06.008)
Listen, I think it's all cool, but...

Coach Mills (01:27:06.815)
Can this, how about this motherfucker just doesn't scream, born again when he rezes? So people don't know where it's at, like they have to see where it's at and he's like, born again guys and the whole team is alive. And like, you know, I don't know.

Death And Gaming (01:27:21.187)
Now, Adam is one of those heroes where his ult isn't as free value as a Lunar or Cloak and Dagger Invis ult, and it requires a little bit more thinking, kind like Jeff. There's some demons out there that play Jeff and Adam that are going to just absolutely run the lobby on those two heroes, and I like that there is that skill expression for those players. Because yeah, there's a lot of people who use Adam res right in the middle of everyone. You're like, good, we're going to get wiped a second time.

Coach Mills (01:27:43.453)
this is what I would like. Cause Soulbond, like Adam wants to off angle. He does not want to sit with his team, but Soulbond's an ability that is really, really needed to be with your team. So I would like a different kind of, what if he could just tether to like one other person, like one tank? I don't know. man, I can't think of it, but I do know that Soulbond is, we'll put him in rework. I don't know what that looks like, but we'll put him in.

RauKnows (01:28:05.208)
Yeah, it's tough.

Death And Gaming (01:28:06.263)
I'm not sure what, but yeah.

Captain Coach (01:28:12.324)
Giving him flight kind of breaks his original identity to where you can't have that kind of like very tanky, slow moving, like high damage. But he was kind of, I think kind of a little boring to begin with. So I kind of liked the flight. Cap!

Coach Mills (01:28:17.095)
Yeah. Yeah, right.

Coach Mills (01:28:27.049)
Cap is next! What? Cap? Captain? Captain Coach? What's next? What's for this character? Where's he going?

Captain Coach (01:28:32.9)
I feel like there's like too much power in his ultimate right now, but I like the idea that you're encouraged to actually engage with it now because of the alt generation. So, I mean, you're really encouraged to use it. Yeah, what were you gonna say?

Coach Mills (01:28:46.217)
Mm-hmm.

I would say there's a lot of pros that have this character as the best tank in the game right now. I've been looking at a lot of pro tier lists and they have cap as the best, which is a complete disconnect from ranked, like from our ranked experiences.

Captain Coach (01:29:01.592)
Well, he's so hard to kill and then he can just farm till ultimate. He just stops every objective and it's basically like you have an extra support ult. Like his ult is insane. It's and it's easy to use too. So I don't know really what you do with this character because if you put too much power into his ultimate, he's going to feel really crappy to play in the neutral. But you know, at the end of the day, he is just like a enhanced soldier. So I mean, Laura accurate would be his ult is really OP and he's like,

You know, I don't know. I don't know what you do with Cap. I think he probably needs a little nerf to his ultimate, but I kind of like where he's at. think the idea around it is good. And that's, think just maybe, I don't know, it's tough because if you take away the shield, then I think the shield is really what makes it so good. So maybe, maybe keep the alt generation lower the shield a little bit. Thoughts guys?

RauKnows (01:29:54.51)
don't know how you can change him without ruining a like player feel is if you hurt his mobility you make him clunky if you hurt his kill potential low-rank players already suck at killing people on him they're just gonna complain that he's just a fly but it's tough I can't stand this hero but

Coach Mills (01:30:08.871)
I don't really think there's a great way to fix it, like to change him at all, cause he just... Like if you nerfed him, like no one... We say this a lot, but none of the low rank players are gonna get any value on this character. Cause they already struggle to get value on this character.

RauKnows (01:30:24.878)
I think it's the Angela thing is just make him more punishable. He needs to have some kind of mistake or downtime something that you can actually do something to him during.

Captain Coach (01:30:36.184)
Yeah, maybe a little.

Coach Mills (01:30:36.792)
What do think, Death? Because you play more Cap. I mean, you're the only one of us that actually plays Cap. So what do you think about the character?

Death And Gaming (01:30:43.475)
I like that he fits a very specific role and that he's really fantastic, especially on defense on Convoy maps because he gives you an extra support ult.

I do like where he's at right now. I think like in coordinated pro play he's definitely someone that's probably gonna get nerfed eventually. But the only thing that would really change about him is that his shield and his reflectability is really wonky and every cat player knows it. You're gonna reflect so many mag alts and on your screen it's gonna say you reflected it and then it's gonna say that your cloak and dagger died to the mag alt. That's like the one thing that I would change is that his shield is really buggy. Yeah. It's fucked up.

Coach Mills (01:31:19.087)
That's like a reverse no reg.

Captain Coach (01:31:21.708)
I'm the new team up you got. Like I'm sure every cap would love that baseline, you know.

Death And Gaming (01:31:24.973)
Yeah. Yeah. Even if it wasn't just a bigger shield, just changing that team up to where, or changing the shield to work a little bit more like the team up would be great.

Coach Mills (01:31:34.387)
Like what they could do is they could reduce the HP of the shield and they could increase the cool down if it gets broken. But then as compensation, they give you direct, like the direct ability. So.

Captain Coach (01:31:34.392)
Yeah, to where you can aim.

RauKnows (01:31:41.442)
Make it a direction.

Captain Coach (01:31:43.844)
that would make him perfect. Nerf the ult a little bit, give him that. I think he's like in a perfect spot.

Death And Gaming (01:31:44.003)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:31:49.599)
you know, a lunar tries to freeze it, can, you know, deflect it right back and then fix some of the bugs about it. Yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:31:55.384)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:31:59.865)
Yeah, and I do think like cap is a really good tank in a really good spot. I'd say like mini buff more than anything to like a shield, yeah. I think he's in a good spot. I think he's a good tank.

Coach Mills (01:32:02.899)
kind of what is, what does that actually look like? I guess it's a rework, yeah.

Captain Coach (01:32:06.348)
It's mini rework.

Yeah

Coach Mills (01:32:21.489)
Well, well, well. Look what we have here. And Vizreal's in the building. Let's fucking go.

Death And Gaming (01:32:23.522)
Out.

Captain Coach (01:32:27.822)
cracking my fingers.

RauKnows (01:32:28.098)
how we said not giving people reloads I feel like she needs more reloads just so much uptime so much multitasking like it just

Captain Coach (01:32:33.08)
Hahaha

Coach Mills (01:32:34.047)
More reloads!

I think no changes guys, right? Can we all agree right now? No, okay

Captain Coach (01:32:38.404)
She needs a lower cooldown on her pull.

Death And Gaming (01:32:43.289)
think she's good where she's at. think if you...

Captain Coach (01:32:45.639)
luck.

RauKnows (01:32:45.976)
Yeah, I think she's, if I had to pick something, we gotta do something about the pole. The fact that the pole is 35 meters does what, like 50 damage, has a huge hit box. It's ridiculous, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:32:50.867)
scared.

Coach Mills (01:32:54.289)
I hate this character. I hate this character. Can we turn that into a skillshot and also make it close range? you like relatively close range? Yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:32:54.765)
The range is insane.

RauKnows (01:33:01.431)
Exactly.

Captain Coach (01:33:02.82)
I should go back to her identity of needing to stealth to heal up and stop the self-healing on herself when she shields herself, making her a raid boss. She's legit like a raid boss from World of Warcraft where I have phases of the fight. It's like, OK, she used this. We're two minutes into the fight now. I got to my jump and my ult. It's like you've got to plan out your fights against her because you know you're not going to be able to kill her for so long.

RauKnows (01:33:12.792)
So like keep the self shield but not have self heal on the shield.

Captain Coach (01:33:31.512)
Just reduce her tankiness, her self-tankiness, and yeah, maybe look at the pole a little bit. She needs a nerve.

Coach Mills (01:33:34.889)
She She has

Captain Coach (01:33:38.338)
Yeah, and lower her HP.

Death And Gaming (01:33:39.597)
Yeah, just nerf.

RauKnows (01:33:43.916)
Make her burstable.

Death And Gaming (01:33:55.513)
have a hot take on that one, but I feel like I should wait until after this part.

Captain Coach (01:33:57.06)
Because she sells a lot of skins. But we're not ready to have that conversation.

Coach Mills (01:34:02.489)
It didn't! my god, okay... Yeah...

Death And Gaming (01:34:06.147)
We'll do that after this part.

RauKnows (01:34:06.51)
I'm glad you didn't say that about Psylocke. By the way, everyone go to your Hellfire Gallip polls, Psylocke. No one plays Rogue, no one plays Cab, no one plays Storm, Psylocke skin.

Coach Mills (01:34:13.439)
What? Oh, whoa.

Death And Gaming (01:34:15.597)
Hi Rogue.

Captain Coach (01:34:16.632)
Ha

Well, Silek actually takes skill to play, which is why I didn't say anything.

Coach Mills (01:34:19.647)
Whoa, whoa, Why it can't death the gaming is conflicted day his campus on blasts are Yeah, I fucking hate this character. I'm sorry. I'm not gonna be biased like I try to be on bias for you chat I try support players y'all get a lot of flack, but in viz players you do not get enough. I'm sorry. That's I don't make the rules Well like like I have I have support players here

RauKnows (01:34:32.343)
Hahaha!

Captain Coach (01:34:41.188)
They just shield it all and then hide

Death And Gaming (01:34:44.057)
We're all going to talk about this later after this part, right?

Coach Mills (01:34:49.023)
And I have invis players here, okay? And the only one below invis players are Punisher Lords. Like fucking, I hate you Punisher Lord player. Like y'all do not have a single brain cell. generally, support players, I fuck with you, but not invis players. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And it's not, not like, that's, did, because I did a tier list similar, kind of similar to this we talking about it. And I had this like a whole bunch of people in my chat that are like, they can't see past their own character.

RauKnows (01:34:51.596)
I agree with it.

Death And Gaming (01:34:56.505)
Hahaha!

RauKnows (01:35:04.728)
They have the worst takes. They're like the Thor community.

Coach Mills (01:35:17.225)
Like they'll defend any decision about Invis to the end of the year. I'm over here putting my own main in nerf. I'm probably gonna put every single character I play in nerf tier, most likely. But Invis players, they just, they cope. They cope about the character's power. And I can't stand it. Like just be honest. Just be honest about the character. And then we're good. Yeah, then we're good.

Death And Gaming (01:35:18.416)
yeah.

RauKnows (01:35:39.896)
This was the only character that we've, not only, but one of the only characters that has ever been buffed in a strong state. Like she's never been bad, and then she literally got an ult buff to catch her up to the other, they even admitted that they were catching her up to the other strategist, and she wasn't even in a bad state, it's crazy.

Coach Mills (01:35:47.368)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:35:57.624)
And I even, yeah, I remember back then too, she was still pretty good. It's just a lot of people didn't really know how to play her that well. And when you went against a good one that like, Invisis can go and assassinate you. They pop their little slow and like pull you into it and just like, they one shot you. It's obnoxious. She's so OP bro.

Coach Mills (01:36:18.719)
Okay, let's move on. Before I get fucking heated. Before I get heated. Alright, alright, alright. We really gotta go rapid fire now. I know we've been going rapid fire, but there's still a lot of fucking characters. Okay, Mr. Fent, Mr. Fent, what do y'all think?

RauKnows (01:36:20.514)
We all got it out. Shake it off.

Death And Gaming (01:36:21.911)
Yeah. I was gonna say more.

Captain Coach (01:36:22.75)
I feel so much better.

RauKnows (01:36:29.538)
Fine, fine, is that?

Death And Gaming (01:36:33.795)
Slight buff for rework is ult, but I think like he's in a good spot, but he definitely has some issues. I think that the best person to ask about this, I would say get them in a rework and get NetEase developers in a room with Galas and just let them figure out what to do.

RauKnows (01:36:36.014)
You think so?

Captain Coach (01:36:48.353)
Yeah, I think they actually, I love Mr. Fantastic the way he is. Like he's so fun, but I...

Coach Mills (01:36:48.39)
yeah.

RauKnows (01:36:54.764)
He does what he does well, he's annoying, but he has his glaring weaknesses.

Coach Mills (01:36:57.395)
Yeah, I think that if you ever made this character too strong, he would ruin the game. Like this character could break the game, you up his damage by 25 % and this character is a fucking demon. Like legitimately killing your back lines.

Captain Coach (01:36:59.233)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:37:04.088)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:37:08.548)
I do think though you could probably rework him into a tank just by moving a couple of numbers around and like you give him like a hundred more health lower the damage on his slap and maybe he fills a niche. Yeah, no, I agree. I would say no change personally but I'm just saying there's a world where you could do a buff, you could do a rework but I, know, some characters are okay just not being meta. I like Fantastic the way he is. I think he's really fun.

RauKnows (01:37:16.226)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:37:18.809)
It's kind of cool though. It's kind of cool that he's not cool. I mean, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:37:33.693)
Yeah, and he's not terrible give you could also give him a cool team up cool new team up and you know Keep him spiced up that way. Okay All right, mr. Fett players are gonna be like what the fuck you only talked about our character for 20 seconds. Whoa Elsa Yeah, like like can we nerve this character again just for good measure like she's not even good but can I nerf her again? No, no, I know you like Elsa a lot

Captain Coach (01:37:40.292)
And then console players, you know, probably have an opinion on him too. Sorry. I love Fent. I love Fent, man. I always win with him. Elsa.

Death And Gaming (01:37:40.683)
I guess I'll...

RauKnows (01:37:46.316)
Hahaha!

Death And Gaming (01:37:46.967)
I think there's certain players that are underrated.

Captain Coach (01:37:57.536)
Yeah, the nerfs weren't enough.

Death And Gaming (01:38:01.283)
She's actually kind of fine.

Coach Mills (01:38:04.507)
I don't think that this ca- So I think this character is still reasonably good, but I don't really think she needs any changes. I think she's fine in the state that she's in. I also don't think that this character should ever be... She should not be meta again for like at least three or four seasons. Like please keep her completely out of the meta. If you're gonna nerf anything, it needs to be her ultimate or rework her ultimate. Wait, why? Wait, why?

Captain Coach (01:38:23.14)
Coach, you're losing your credibility, Coach Mills, with this one.

RauKnows (01:38:26.816)
It's okay, and this is why I actually think she's good. She's fine. No, I think she's fine. not even close, no.

Coach Mills (01:38:29.225)
Wait, you think she's busted? She's not on Jean Grey. No, I'm talking to Cav. Do you think he's busted? no.

Captain Coach (01:38:33.956)
No, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

RauKnows (01:38:39.68)
Yep, I knew that was coming.

Coach Mills (01:38:45.235)
I mean, they, you know, they heavily nerfed to that though, recently. I mean, it still exists, but they have, it was heavy, it's a massive nerf to that. Like I could duel this character on Thor now. I could duel this character on Thor. I'm not afraid of this character on Venom now. Like you want Hulk, I mean, you know, but I mean, sucks to, sucks to.

RauKnows (01:38:50.091)
It,

Captain Coach (01:38:52.972)
Now when it else does a full combo.

Captain Coach (01:39:01.348)
Her damage is obnoxious. And then the traps, like why can't I see where they are? I should be able to fight back. You know, we've like maybe, maybe reallocate some of her power, but I would hopefully that's in the form of a nerf less toxic things to go against. Like random traps.

Coach Mills (01:39:06.727)
I mean, yeah, we've kind of, yeah. We've talked about these problems before, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:39:17.939)
I mean, you think you would rather get rid of her trap and change that percentage damage than address her ult? Cause I think her ult is the only like still busted part about her.

Captain Coach (01:39:25.954)
That too. Yeah, Heralt's very good. It's very, very strong. It's, they need to lower the hitbox of it.

RauKnows (01:39:31.502)
I feel like it feels like it's easy to break. Is that a crazy take? Like if you're playing all melee, it doesn't feel like it's all that hard to break. I actually don't really play El Sol that much. Not your average Elsa, good Elsa's, yeah.

Coach Mills (01:39:36.521)
That is a crazy take. That is not, it doesn't.

Captain Coach (01:39:36.951)
It is.

Death And Gaming (01:39:37.187)
I

Coach Mills (01:39:42.047)
They get everybody in it. That's the thing. like, mean, at least, least not in random lobbies, but like the in high rank and like in pro play, like the Elsters are hiding behind around a corner and you know, people are moving together as a unit. They all get grabbed, you know.

Captain Coach (01:39:58.838)
It is such-

Death And Gaming (01:39:58.873)
I think players just have to start to learn to predict that kind of thing too. Being sneaky should be rewarded to a certain extent.

Captain Coach (01:40:02.123)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:40:03.229)
I mean, it's, the problem is sometimes playing around it is a cost. It's like a cost that can be exploited too. You you're trying to play around it too much. Everyone's all spread or whatever.

Captain Coach (01:40:10.34)
I mean

RauKnows (01:40:14.702)
I would rather have an Oyo to play around than a neutral. Angela kills the playstyle of half the duelists for nothing. I'd rather have an ultimate that forces that.

Captain Coach (01:40:15.139)
Mm.

Captain Coach (01:40:20.228)
Elsa's alt is not hard to use. You just pop it during a support alt where everybody's clumped up and it's more times than not gonna at least knock them out.

Coach Mills (01:40:29.001)
Cause would you agree, I think that Elsa is a top three DPS ult. Would you agree or disagree with that Raoul? Ultimates. Not character, not character. But ultimate, I think it's probably top two. I have Wolven her as the top two. Just Mass CC, typically those ults are reserved for tank ults and they're given to DPS ults in this instance. I mean, it's cool. It's cool, but it's not really cool to get hit by it. It's not cool.

RauKnows (01:40:35.434)
Ultimate? Yes. Not a character, but ultimate, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think...

Yeah. No, I agree. I think Wolves was also before we had it. Yeah.

RauKnows (01:40:57.166)
I see it as a slightly more skillful Jeff ultimate, because you don't get healing on it. Jeff is a full hard CC. But I think it needs to exist. think it's like thing where it is, it gives Duelist some agency to shut down straddles. I think make it harder to hit. It needs to have agency though. Tanks should not be the only thing that can kill through straddle.

Coach Mills (01:41:03.839)
I think Jeff Holds is skillful, bro.

Death And Gaming (01:41:11.383)
Yep, that's why it exists.

Coach Mills (01:41:14.431)
I guess I could like that, I could like that. A necessary evil, we talked about that before, a necessary evil. Yeah, I'm surprised, so Cap, you think this character needs to be nerfed more, is what you're saying. Do think this character's top three DPS right now?

Death And Gaming (01:41:20.707)
a lot of what they've added to...

Captain Coach (01:41:24.964)
Mm-hmm.

Captain Coach (01:41:28.868)
She's top five. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:41:32.681)
Top five, okay, I could probably agree with that.

RauKnows (01:41:34.19)
She's top three into beefy tanks. I just made a ban video and I genuinely think she's only worth a ban if you're running like pain bros like big boys. Like outside of that squishy, she's not as like.

Coach Mills (01:41:42.175)
Well, cause I don't think, my problem with previous Elsa, like previous Elsa before the nerfs is that you couldn't play dive into her. But now you can, like she's not that good against Venom, Cap, Venom, Cap, Thor, like even Tankpool. Like she can't stand up against these divers anymore, which means that there's counter play there. Maybe I'm just coping because.

Captain Coach (01:41:44.696)
Well, maybe then.

RauKnows (01:41:53.976)
She's not an off-angler anymore,

Coach Mills (01:42:06.749)
She feels way better than she used to feel like to play against. And maybe she is too strong in like the really right hands, but I haven't felt it or I'm just curious of your perspective, Cap, if you still feel like she needs some massive changes.

Captain Coach (01:42:20.004)
Her damage is obnoxious. I just feel like I take so much while I'm CC'd. It's really just the traps. The unfun parts about her I think they should just try to limit a little bit, really.

Coach Mills (01:42:33.821)
Let them limit them.

RauKnows (01:42:34.744)
Do you think adding more fall off on the coach gun would be? Cause she fits a good role of anti big boy. So you don't want to take that completely, but maybe make it to where she actually has to displace herself, get closer to them than actually.

Captain Coach (01:42:40.732)
Um, well, I'd make her

Coach Mills (01:42:48.617)
What? Do you like, Raul, would you be okay with if, I talked to you like you're representative of Elsa, but would you be okay with us making it so that the trap doesn't go invisible? Maybe it stuns a little bit harder, but it's not an invisible trap. So we can actually break it or play around it or whatever. Like Junkrat Trap, make it more like Junkrat Trap.

RauKnows (01:42:56.748)
Hahaha.

RauKnows (01:43:02.797)
Hey, yeah.

Yeah, the trap feels I don't know if death I don't know if death feels the same way. I feel like a lot of silent players play myself tap like Went to Elsa when she came out because I like was useless and Elsa was just better than her and The trap never felt like an intuitive part of her kit It felt like it was just you play you throw it out you play you throw it out like sometimes you put on back line but overall I felt like

Captain Coach (01:43:27.3)
Mm-hmm.

RauKnows (01:43:29.646)
I was playing, and this could be a me thing, but I was playing her more like Sigh, especially when I had ult, trying to set up on an off angle. And I'd throw the trap at my feet and play on top of it from time to time. But yeah, I don't know. I wasn't a fan of the trap. It never felt good to use. It was good, but it didn't feel enjoyable.

Coach Mills (01:43:46.911)
I think we could probably all agree on reworking the trap. Death, do you think you're down with that too?

Death And Gaming (01:43:51.448)
Yeah. Yeah, I'd agree with that. And it was funny because like last season, because everyone was playing Elsa, most SightLock players shifted over because it's all about the mobility and whatnot. And I intentionally just never bothered to learn Elsa because she was always perma-banned. And yeah, anytime there's like, I don't know, I always make it more difficult on myself where I'm like, oh, my character's weak. I'm like, I'm going to climb regardless. it.

Coach Mills (01:44:13.599)
And okay, one more thing. Here's the reason why I'm gonna say that Elsa can't have damage. She can. She's one of the few characters that can. Because in the lore, she's a monster hunter, okay? And monsters are tanks, bro. She has to be able to be that big game hunter. She has to, if you're gonna give it to one fucking character. Now Iron Fist, that shit makes no sense, okay? But I think that you could give it lore-wise. And we're talking about the lore. You could probably give it to her. Although,

Captain Coach (01:44:28.932)
you

Death And Gaming (01:44:29.795)
He's kinda got you there.

RauKnows (01:44:31.469)
sure.

RauKnows (01:44:37.357)
Hahaha!

Coach Mills (01:44:43.591)
Not super powerful, just a little, you know, just a little more damage, but.

Captain Coach (01:44:47.972)
I just feel like there's other ways to go about being able to pressure tanks. Shotgun punny is kind of an example of that where it's more about getting close enough to where... Yeah. But it seems like they haven't found great ideas yet for these mechanics and that they tend to get abused in other situations, not...

Coach Mills (01:44:59.823)
Yeah, that shit needs to go too. We'll talk about that in a bit. That shit needs to go, bro.

Captain Coach (01:45:16.888)
for what they were maybe initially intended for.

Coach Mills (01:45:17.523)
Yeah, you wanna broke a DPS? Percentage based damage, over shield, like it's the same shit. CC on an ult, okay. All right, let's move on.

RauKnows (01:45:30.712)
So, Buffhouse?

Coach Mills (01:45:31.711)
Of course, course, but stronger than she was before actually.

RauKnows (01:45:37.294)
I think he's in a perfect state after that. love the... Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:45:40.447)
All right, so okay someone needs to explain this shit to me because every every person on the planet is telling me Bucky feels so much better now He feels like the same fucking character to me and I don't think he's actually I think he's actually worse in the meta than he was before I Think he's worse than the better now. I can I think I have Just yesterday my yesterday play session. I think there was at least 12 kills that got away from me

Death And Gaming (01:45:41.785)
I actually think he's in a good spot.

Death And Gaming (01:45:55.885)
He feels better to play against.

Coach Mills (01:46:09.661)
because of the change. the, and I'm not saying you should have ever had the, can't move, but I can, I can't skill Psylocke's anymore because they can just dash away. I can't kill, you know, whether it's magics, Hellas, a lot of tanks can just run away. And like, I understand that his primary is better now. So he's better against like the Hellas and the Genes and the bullshit that he was weak against, but he's not as good against the Divers now, which I think are just a much more prevalent side of the meta. So I don't think this character is.

Like, I think he's just still mid. Like, he's not like busted or anything. He's not terrible, but I just think he's just mid. And I think that's fine. I think it's, I don't think we need any changes with the character. I said a while back that if a character is too good for too long, it's fine if they're just mid for a while, or even bad. Like, make a character bad if they're too good for too long. And I think Bucky's kind of in that place where he's like just fine.

Death And Gaming (01:46:46.169)
I think that's fine.

RauKnows (01:47:02.136)
He's the projectile hella. He's always been good. He's just never had a bad time in his life.

Coach Mills (01:47:06.183)
Right. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't think he's a top five DPS or even a top six DPS right now. But I will say that his team up with Cap is fucking useless. I'm not gonna lie. It's so bad. Can we get him a different team up? No. Yeah. But I realize that a character that wants to play purely front to back and can't off angle and a character that wants to jump into their back line.

Death And Gaming (01:47:16.695)
No, but-

RauKnows (01:47:19.51)
Hahaha

Death And Gaming (01:47:20.835)
Dude, but there's so many fun times where we would be able to get to do the high five, you know?

RauKnows (01:47:28.856)
Yeah, with a dive tank.

Coach Mills (01:47:32.861)
have a lot of anti-synergy they gotta work through. the only time that that worked is like you stalling the car and getting value there. And then me just being able to kill more things, cause I have the team up. But it's not like together we're making something crazy happen. You know what I'm saying? Like it's kind of just like we're individually doing good shit and it's working. like, so I would argue that he needs this team up change. That team up is, how long has the Cap Bucky team up been around?

Death And Gaming (01:47:48.439)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:47:52.824)
There's been a couple.

RauKnows (01:47:52.898)
People really need to move away, not just this season. Yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:47:58.391)
This is good forever,

RauKnows (01:47:59.118)
That's one of the longer running ones,

Coach Mills (01:47:59.941)
It's still here and it's terrible! It's always been terrible.

RauKnows (01:48:04.206)
People need to get away from the mentality that it's the anti-dive because he's, I don't know how you guys feel, but if you're actually in a dive comp of two or more players, he's actually a target. Like he is the person, he's a person you can go on. He has a large hitbox, you can explode him.

Coach Mills (01:48:17.055)
Yeah, no, he's always the dive target. I was watching a TikTok with Cuffee, think. I forgot, Coach Cuffee, we had him on a couple thing and he was talking about, he's talking about like Bucky's not a true anti-diver because against multiple divers, he just doesn't have the tools to stop them. And this was before they took away his CC uppercut. Now he's especially vulnerable to getting dove, but in ranked, in isolated duels, like if you're in an isolated one-on-one with a Magic or a Black Panther, like you're heavily favored.

RauKnows (01:48:32.641)
Yeah, if he gets isolated, he's cooked, you know?

Coach Mills (01:48:46.963)
It's just like, isolated 1v1s are not, that's not a dive meta, that's isolated 1v1. know, it's like, which is, like it's fine. Like I don't think Bucky should be, I don't think he should ever really be meta. Like again, like we've had, we had a small stretch of him being meta and everyone was miserable. So like, let's just not do that. But yeah, new team up. Can y'all agree with that? Different team up. All right.

RauKnows (01:48:50.904)
there.

Death And Gaming (01:48:52.162)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:49:16.703)
All right, Captain Coach, watch this is gonna be one relevant to you. I just could feel it.

Captain Coach (01:49:22.126)
Nope.

Coach Mills (01:49:23.039)
No, hey, it has a team with your character. Dogshit team, by the way. Next up is Black Panther. So what do think?

Captain Coach (01:49:29.284)
Yeah, speaking from experience, I mean, the team up is actually not like terrible, but yeah, he needs a team of change for sure. I would say, argue though, full rework for this character. So you can put him back to the... I really like what, was it light that said with the vibranium bleed, you kind of apply a stacking where you stacking bleed that over the damage over time that you can kind of...

Coach Mills (01:49:34.545)
No, no, it's not.

RauKnows (01:49:35.318)
It will save him,

Death And Gaming (01:49:36.599)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:49:40.041)
A full rework, He's...

Coach Mills (01:49:41.747)
All right, full rework. What would that look like for you? What would that look like for you, Cap?

Captain Coach (01:49:57.54)
apply over and over again. So, you know, he's not as much of a burst threat, but you know, can stay in fights longer and do all those cool dash combos that makes him really iconic. I thought that was a great idea and he sold me on that one. So yeah, something like that where he can kind of bit more brawly and give him like a team up something with like his armor where he explodes it, like in the movies where he absorbs damage and then can release it. And then he, you know, that would set up cool combo opportunities with like knocking people away then dashing.

to one point, like on the edge of fights, I think that could be a really cool direction for the hero.

Death And Gaming (01:50:29.271)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:50:29.663)
think so too. Yeah, I think it could be nice. A lot more uptime, a lot more uptime, but less overall burst damage. Because I think that's the reason he's never been allowed to be strong is because, you know, he could one tap cloak and daggers or whatever in like a millisecond. Take that part of him away and the character is just really easy to counter. So we should just give him more uptime, make him less reliant on just those crazy bursts and much better character overall.

Death And Gaming (01:50:59.437)
When he was frequently played, the way that you had to play against him was literally just follow him around and force him to swap off BP. Like, it was really boring and really lame. So it's like, just, yeah, you just can't ever let him set up. just, it's really, really boring and yeah, a full rework would do him great.

Coach Mills (01:51:05.432)
Yeah.

RauKnows (01:51:06.562)
You don't let him set up.

Coach Mills (01:51:12.135)
Yeah. I think the gold standards is if they can just like there's a lot of ways they could change them. But if they could just make it so that the character doesn't auto fold to the thing, if they could just change that, I think it would fix everything else about him. Like you, you, you, you fix that core problem because that what that would require is that, you know, his, his kid isn't super one dimensional, right? That's basically what it is. It's just very one dimensional.

Death And Gaming (01:51:26.178)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:51:35.232)
You could give him some kind of like instant escape, maybe like Star-Lord, like an instant reset, like a do-over button, something like that. I don't know what that would look like, but that on paper, like not from like a purely design perspective, something like that would help him a lot. Just immediate, get out of a fight.

Coach Mills (01:51:50.323)
Some, yeah. Some type of, I like the idea of using his vibranium absorption thing somehow. They could make it, maybe you have to choose between like a burst, a bit of burst damage or sustain. I don't know, there's a lot of ways that they could deepen his kit. So.

Death And Gaming (01:51:59.81)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:52:07.46)
100%.

Coach Mills (01:52:10.505)
Let's move on to the next one. Okay. There's still a lot of hot topics in here. A lot of hot topics. And the next one is Widow. Okay. Okay. Death in gaming. We're asking you first. What do think about Widow?

Captain Coach (01:52:19.748)
Speaking of which...

Captain Coach (01:52:25.891)
Hahaha.

Death And Gaming (01:52:26.605)
I think this is the part that I thought about this the other day. It's really tough because man there are some dedicated Widow players that love what she does and how she plays. But there's a lot of characters that are good. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:52:33.253)
Yo.

Captain Coach (01:52:36.194)
No buffs yet, by the way. Just saying.

Coach Mills (01:52:38.079)
Everything in this game is fucking busted, okay? It's kind of the problem in this game. No, there are definitely characters that will get buffed. We'll get there.

Captain Coach (01:52:43.396)
We're almost two hours in.

Death And Gaming (01:52:45.517)
but like her kick.

Captain Coach (01:52:49.324)
Sorry, Doug. Go ahead.

Death And Gaming (01:52:50.208)
No, you're good. Her like I am OK with like for her dedicated players leaving her as a bit of a sniper. But the the kick is really lame that it can hit you when you're behind her. Yeah. And even if you portal it. Even if you portal it, she can still stun you with the second half of the kick. like that that needs to be fixed. The batons no one uses. Those are dumb. Change those. There's some she needs some some reworks to her kit, even if you keep the sniper aspect like rework the other parts.

Coach Mills (01:52:57.881)
It's bullshit! It's so stupid! The kick is so dumb!

RauKnows (01:53:00.31)
Hahaha!

Coach Mills (01:53:07.258)
Yes! You can't-

I've

It's kind of funny because of the whole Zaza situation and stuff about the matches between Widow and Dive characters. But what people don't really understand is that Venom is hard, hard countered by Widow. Like hard countered. And the reason is because you can't escape her kick. Because of the auto-locking mechanism, when you try to zip away, grapple away, which is what every Venom does, they can just grab you. I was talking to Snakecase, who's the number one Venom in the world, and he said, if there's ever a time where

Death And Gaming (01:53:30.488)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:53:45.183)
Black Widow is meta, then Venom won't be because that's like the hardest counter in the game.

Captain Coach (01:53:51.576)
You want to hear something funny? The rank one widow, Exlec, he bans Hulk because Hulk can just go in and bubble the kick and then jump out. So he can't do the broken bullshit.

Coach Mills (01:54:00.207)
the one fucking character that gets to deal with the bullshit. Okay, okay. That's actually kind of funny. I never thought about like you're the you're the only tank that gets to be like nah. Every other tank just gets kicked.

Captain Coach (01:54:11.266)
without

Death And Gaming (01:54:11.747)
legit like, cause like when you're playing Psylocke and you're going up against someone that has CC from range, your goal is to basically try and dash and predict the CC and avoid it. So like if a Hella, if a Hella looks at me, I'm like, I'm going to dash immediately cause she's going to want to throw her stun. But if you do that to Widow, you'll dash immediately. She'll kick and it'll hit when you're behind her and it'll still connect and then you die anyway. And it's just like, well, like what do I do in that situation? And then just no good nearer.

RauKnows (01:54:15.566)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:54:34.638)
Dude, they need a...

Coach Mills (01:54:37.334)
Yeah, so just remove it and make you're able to one-shot across the map. No, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. Let's not do that. I'm just kidding.

Captain Coach (01:54:41.614)
They need to go more into that spy espionage identity. I think maybe Erika rework, give her an ability where you can listen to the enemy team's comms.

Coach Mills (01:54:51.431)
Okay. shit.

RauKnows (01:54:53.705)
you can actually talk to them.

Death And Gaming (01:54:53.825)
Just the most just the most abhorrent stuff you'd ever hear. Just the team tilted toxic and and crashing out at each other.

RauKnows (01:55:01.154)
Because the symbol of throwing needs to go into the other team's comms.

Captain Coach (01:55:03.774)
Yeah, yeah. She is a rage made hero. Maybe bit of like maybe spy from TF2. Maybe she can do some crazy. I don't know.

Coach Mills (01:55:05.263)
hahahahah

Death And Gaming (01:55:11.104)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:55:11.515)
shit. I saw this art of her, I don't know who drew it, of Black Widow with dual Mac 10s, like dual submachine guns, and it just looked so cool. I imagine a different world. Yeah. No, but what if, okay, remove the kick, remove the stun, give her the ability to change into like a close range weapon that she gets to use, you know? Like, her a secondary weapon. Maybe it is close range, close range.

Death And Gaming (01:55:19.607)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (01:55:23.129)
That could be cool. I'm down.

RauKnows (01:55:23.342)
So you're saying that's Sombra? I'm down with it.

RauKnows (01:55:36.398)
Dude, I'd love to have a sprinting tracking character. Yeah.

Coach Mills (01:55:38.929)
Yeah, like imagine like i'm trying to think of like do y'all play valent the frenzy i'm trying to think of like really wide shooting Submachine guns that are like super inaccurate

RauKnows (01:55:47.618)
Well, Widow. Literally Black Widow. Or Widowmaker.

Captain Coach (01:55:49.87)
She should do like some jujitsu. Like she should like wrap her leg around your neck and like pull you to the ground.

Coach Mills (01:55:50.729)
Whoa. well, yeah, like her primary. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm talking like, like maybe it doesn't do any damage past like, you five feet. It's like really close range, but she could run and jump on top of someone and like burst them down, you know, and does like a whole bunch of damage.

RauKnows (01:55:54.478)
Okay.

RauKnows (01:56:08.782)
And I death you're probably better side than I am but that character is genuinely one of the most annoying characters to deal with on side Because your actual kill threat range is her stun range. She beats you at poke range It's just if she ends I sucks in trip support so their trip support mantis or Ultron with her You're just you're inactive. You can't do anything

Death And Gaming (01:56:26.551)
I'll solo ult a Black Widow like every time. 100 % hands down. Like she'll be on the back, she'll be getting like damage boosted. I'll solo ult the Black Widow and they'll support ult in front. They're already down a player now and I'm like, okay, like people think it's a waste, but it's just like, no, like you cannot, you can't really plan around the kick because it's so inconsistent and anything that's inconsistent, it's like, well, I'm just gonna solo ult you and get free value then and just, you know, go from there every time.

Coach Mills (01:56:30.057)
Ha ha ha ha!

RauKnows (01:56:30.134)
Hahaha!

Captain Coach (01:56:31.396)
you

Captain Coach (01:56:51.918)
So all team for the vibes.

Coach Mills (01:56:52.095)
So I think a rework around her kick probably is what we're looking at. Maybe they can give her power in other ways. It's just the kick I think is very, very frustrating to play against. Okay.

RauKnows (01:56:54.53)
Reworking.

Death And Gaming (01:57:00.473)
It's the kick that's really fucking annoying. The batons are stupid too. No one uses them.

Captain Coach (01:57:06.964)
They like having those instant kill confirms on heroes.

Death And Gaming (01:57:10.584)
Mm-hmm.

Coach Mills (01:57:12.031)
Ooh, Loki. I might have a hard take here. I think this character's fine.

Captain Coach (01:57:13.12)
Okay

RauKnows (01:57:17.23)
I think he's fine, but he enables such toxic metas. I'm so sick of double gambit ults. That's so annoying.

Coach Mills (01:57:21.943)
yeah. Yeah, but that's like, if they fixed the gamut thing we talked about, Loki would probably be fine, but...

RauKnows (01:57:28.704)
Is it crazy to make him have to copy the enemy team like Ekko and Overwatch?

Captain Coach (01:57:33.828)
I have pretty strong opinions about Wokey.

Coach Mills (01:57:34.621)
Well, no, now Echo doesn't have to do that as of two weeks ago. It's funny. They actually got rid of that on Echo just now. Last week, last week they just did that. You can copy your teammates.

Captain Coach (01:57:38.403)
That's

Death And Gaming (01:57:40.057)
I didn't know they changed that.

RauKnows (01:57:41.794)
I just... Like the idea of copying in Ulta is cool, but when it's literally just copy support on your backline, like make him copying things other than support's cool, and he's an awesome character.

Captain Coach (01:57:51.5)
Yeah. I like that idea. I think you should take it one step further and make it so he can't copy the same person twice.

RauKnows (01:58:01.71)
That'd be cool and it slowly as the game goes on during a round you limit your options.

Captain Coach (01:58:04.042)
And yeah, cause there's always a way you can balance around that or do it so there's like a cool down. There's a character in League of Legends called Silas and he has an ultimate where you just poop, steal their alt. you can't bet you basically you have to go through about three ultimates roughly based on your cool down reduction before you get the same person again. Maybe something like that.

Coach Mills (01:58:24.841)
So this, I think they should do it exactly like Echo was. So how Echo did it is you can't copy a character and instantly alt. You copy a character, but you have five times the ultimate generation on that character. So you would have to copy a Luna and then you would have to probably fight for like eight seconds and then you could alt. So like you, or maybe it'd be like six seconds. You could build up the alt really quickly, but you don't get it instantly. It's not copy alt, it is copy.

RauKnows (01:58:25.304)
What if you...

RauKnows (01:58:34.592)
and then have increased rate.

Coach Mills (01:58:53.479)
You are that character. If you die, you go back to Loki. But if you don't, you could just generate that ult really quickly and use it. So there's a window. It's not like ult into ult into ult into ult, right? That's what they did in Overwatch.

Captain Coach (01:58:59.629)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (01:59:05.54)
That would justify it having such a cooldown. What were you going to say, Raoul?

RauKnows (01:59:10.574)
I personally like the idea, especially now that we're getting away from ult spam metas of ult manipulation What if he had to copy an enemy but whoever he copied he took a portion of their percentage to stole their ult and a portion of their percentage Of course, I like ult manipulation because now ultimates are so much more punishing so if you had ult like Rogue's ultimate got such a buff from that because it's like people actually have to worry about their ult and now all of a sudden she

Captain Coach (01:59:25.378)
You'd have to increase the cool down of it if you did that, feel like. Yeah.

RauKnows (01:59:40.322)
kind of stops you from doing what you're wanting to do. I like that.

Captain Coach (01:59:43.78)
Yeah, I also think they could play around him, stealthing and backstabbing a bit more. It's always used in a defensive way, which I find kind of annoying. like boring. I think Loki honestly could use a rework personally.

Coach Mills (01:59:57.823)
This is completely maybe not even for Loki, but a completely new character or whatever. Wouldn't it be cool if there was a hero that they could target someone with an effect for like 20 seconds. That person doesn't know they're targeted, but if they use their ultimate within that timeframe, it gets like maybe not canceled, but there's some penalty there. I think that'd be kind of cool. Like you're trying to predict fully when someone is gonna ult. And I know, but.

Captain Coach (02:00:18.596)
Mm.

Death And Gaming (02:00:22.177)
I players are gonna be really frustrated. I see the vision though of like if you could predict it and hit them with it, that'd be pretty good. Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:00:24.11)
That would.

Captain Coach (02:00:28.344)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:00:29.203)
then you could play make it, you know, could play make with it. Maybe it's like if they used it within the next certain amount of time, it's like, it does like a wacky animation, like, you just got jinxed and now their ultimate's reset down to 70 % again or something, or like, I don't know, something along those lines. But that completely sidetracked. So what's y'all's ultimate take on the character? Y'all think he's...

Captain Coach (02:00:33.4)
I think...

Death And Gaming (02:00:44.525)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:00:52.875)
I he's in a good spot, yeah.

RauKnows (02:00:53.036)
balancing wise fine maybe it's slight change to ultimate but

Captain Coach (02:00:56.652)
I think he needs a rework. I think you need to encourage him to use his ultimate on not just support outs more because they're obviously the best salts in the game. He'd be such a and encourage backstabbing somehow.

RauKnows (02:01:04.789)
It does get kinda old.

Death And Gaming (02:01:04.953)
I

Coach Mills (02:01:07.007)
So what is that? It kind of is, but yeah, like more so.

Death And Gaming (02:01:11.129)
I think that the...

Captain Coach (02:01:12.31)
He does not even use the coolest part of what the god of mischief would do, which is stabbing people in the back. He don't even do it. He don't even do it.

Coach Mills (02:01:17.789)
What if you got a successful backstep kill off you instantly get old? don't know that might be that yeah, people would be trying for that shit. You wouldn't really try. So what you're saying is basically a nerf is what you're saying, right?

Captain Coach (02:01:21.688)
Little too much

Captain Coach (02:01:30.404)
Ner- Ner- Yeah. He's pretty toxic. He's a pretty toxic hero. I- I- I think, yeah, like I- I'm pretty- I've always felt like Loki needs a rework.

RauKnows (02:01:30.466)
No, no, because core balance wise he's fine. It's just a rework of the That's true

Coach Mills (02:01:32.455)
Well, not being able to copy your supports is a big nerve. That is a nerve.

RauKnows (02:01:41.836)
You put him, don't know. Things getting lonely.

Coach Mills (02:01:44.095)
Okay, boom, he's right there. All right, more speed, speed, speed, speed. Let's go, let's go, Let's see what's next. All right. Cool. All right. You said that. Let's fucking go. It's Hella for those of you listening at home. Yeah, we're buffing this character. You said so. You said so. No, think that, can we get rid of the, can we get rid of the headline anymore? Team up, thank you.

Death And Gaming (02:01:44.769)
Yeah, that's a idea actually.

RauKnows (02:01:49.976)
zoom. The next one's good no matter what and buff them.

Death And Gaming (02:01:55.257)
You did not just say that.

Captain Coach (02:01:56.42)
This is not fair!

RauKnows (02:01:56.684)
No.

Death And Gaming (02:02:01.635)
She's in a good spot.

RauKnows (02:02:03.182)
It's right here.

Captain Coach (02:02:05.39)
Mm-hmm

Death And Gaming (02:02:05.398)
Thanks.

Death And Gaming (02:02:10.743)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, get rid of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're over it.

RauKnows (02:02:10.796)
Yeah. Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:02:11.522)
Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:02:14.215)
Other than that, other than that she's fine, but just get rid of that Teemo.

RauKnows (02:02:14.574)
Yeah, I really liked, I love how they made Namor more independent, but then didn't take away the team up. So now he's just better than Hella. Dude, I'm so, I've tweeted about this and I know I rage bait sometimes, so I'm so sick and tired of people saying that Hella's better than Namor. Like, no. Outside of Flyers, but even against Flyers, Namor's not bad.

Captain Coach (02:02:16.388)
Yeah, they haven't.

Coach Mills (02:02:20.895)
I know! I know! What the fuck are they doing?

Captain Coach (02:02:23.16)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:02:30.993)
No, no, Nemora is, I think, just straight up better, actually. I think, I literally think it's like G and Nemora are hella, as for like the poke, like the ordering, I think so. Yeah, it's, okay. All right, this next one is getting nerfed no matter what.

Death And Gaming (02:02:43.991)
Yeah, I play a lot of Nemora like my secondary hero. She's... Nemora's in a good spot to find, but that team up is strong.

RauKnows (02:02:50.21)
Jeff, Jeff, Jeff.

Coach Mills (02:02:50.687)
You like them?

Coach Mills (02:02:55.276)
Alright, alright. Hulk popped up. We don't have any Hulk players on the pod. So I'm gonna ask Death in Gaming what he thinks.

RauKnows (02:02:55.746)
hahahaha

Death And Gaming (02:02:59.617)
Rework, nerf. I think we gotta, I think we gotta, I think we gotta get rid of this character. You know, I think we probably just gotta get rid of this character, man.

RauKnows (02:03:03.096)
They skinned too many skins, too many skins.

Coach Mills (02:03:06.239)
Too many skins! Too many skins. We got a what? got a what? I think so too. I mean, I mean, come on! He's busted! He stops Widow's Kick, man! That's broken! Okay, alright.

Captain Coach (02:03:11.46)
Guys please I have opinions

RauKnows (02:03:15.096)
think Monster Form's too broken.

Captain Coach (02:03:20.004)
Yeah, Hulk is a pretty big widow counter and I that's really I love I love Hulk

Coach Mills (02:03:24.103)
Yeah, okay.

Death And Gaming (02:03:25.977)
and we know how long Widow's been meta.

Coach Mills (02:03:27.259)
Okay, so where does Hulk go on this list? I need to know your opinions so can disagree with it right away. Yup, yup, straight up. No changes.

Captain Coach (02:03:31.906)
You just want to hear it straight up or you want me to no changes. I love them. He has a skillful alt that is.

Death And Gaming (02:03:37.945)
I think he's finally in a good spot.

Coach Mills (02:03:39.743)
Can we change his team up though? I'm just gonna keep throwing him. Here's the thing, I would love a team up that Hulk gets to use. I don't even play Hulk, but it annoys me how he always enables someone else without ever getting to do anything himself. He's giving Gamma Squids and Gamma Beams and fucking bubbles to Black Panther, but he's not doing anything.

Captain Coach (02:03:43.152)
Ha!

Death And Gaming (02:03:43.565)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:03:51.501)
yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:03:54.777)
you, anchor.

Captain Coach (02:03:56.804)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:04:02.116)
OK, so Hulk mains, since I don't want to just skip over this segment completely. Some ideas I had for team ups. One with Magneto, where he give Hulk like a little metal suit of armor, CC immune for a couple seconds. Another one, he can clap off a Captain America shield and get like a big gamma clap. And that's just baseline all the time. Last week, I don't remember who was, said it with Iron Man, made me think of it. But yeah, think Hulk, he's so fun to play. He's in such a good spot.

Coach Mills (02:04:19.383)
okay.

Coach Mills (02:04:26.463)
Hmm.

Captain Coach (02:04:31.638)
One of the most skill expressive tanks, think you want to have more heroes like that. He's a beautifully designed hero. I love Hulk. I love him.

Coach Mills (02:04:39.711)
I think that y'all should make it so he can be booped again to cancel his jump. You know what saying? Like before. Can we add that back? Just to fuck with how long? No, I'm just kidding. What were you saying, death?

Death And Gaming (02:04:40.087)
He is...

Death And Gaming (02:04:47.363)
He is one of those characters where like the best game design to me is stuff that's like really simple to understand and very difficult to master. And I think like Psylocke and Hulk kind of like both fall into that where it's just like their kits aren't incredibly complicated, but get into the point where you can reach the full potential with them is going to just take some time. And that's my favorite type of game design. So I'm actually I like I like where Hulk is at the moment.

Coach Mills (02:05:11.465)
What do you?

Captain Coach (02:05:11.649)
It's

RauKnows (02:05:11.726)
See, and that's why I'm jealous of him for Psylocke, of like, I've always wanted an ult that just made her neutral better. And that's what Hulk has, it's just a better neutral.

Death And Gaming (02:05:17.367)
Yeah. Yeah. This is better neutral,

Captain Coach (02:05:20.228)
It's such a good feeling when you pop an alt and totally eat shit and don't do anything. Because it's addicting, though, because it makes you want to like, god, what did I do better?

Coach Mills (02:05:24.255)
No, we should change his old so that it We should change his old to where like like a very hard Bot takes over the character and like plays the character for you because they because he's out of control. It's Hulk He's doing it for you. That's The melee arrangement I love it. love it. Okay. so on to the next one

RauKnows (02:05:41.006)
I mean, that's basically what your average melee player is.

Captain Coach (02:05:42.308)
That's pretty funny actually.

Captain Coach (02:05:56.228)
We need a little sound for this so people listening don't have to sit here in silence.

Death And Gaming (02:05:58.849)
Magic. Yeah.

RauKnows (02:05:59.992)
This is, I feel like this is secretly one of the most common. Uh-uh, uh-uh, no.

Coach Mills (02:05:59.999)
They have to well they hear that they hear that wait, can y'all hear that magic? Y'all can't hear it. I'm trolling y'all. I thought

Captain Coach (02:06:07.042)
No, sorry, as long as the-

Death And Gaming (02:06:07.341)
I love magic.

RauKnows (02:06:08.664)
Is it crazy to she's like one of the most, not controversial, but characters that people can't agree on? Like Consul, I've heard she's busted. I've seen some people say that she's like FD tier. I see some people say that she's one of the better Mele- like people can't decide on Magic. That's kind of interesting me. She's one of my favorite Melees.

Death And Gaming (02:06:26.851)
She is one of the characters where I don't care what people think about Meta or what her win rate is. She just naturally is a really fun character to play, just as she is. I don't have any issues with her. think her ult is also really well designed where it's like, if you're really good at the ult, you'll get a lot of value. And if you're bad at the ult, you're going to just die instantly. There's a lot of skill expression in her. I don't think...

that some people said, can the portals go vertical and stuff like that? I think that would make her too strong. I she's just a really well-designed character from the start. And they've made a couple of tweaks here and there to make her feel better. But overall, I really just love Magic as a hero, even though I'm not great at her. When I was learning her, I think season three, she was so much fun. I love this hero so much.

RauKnows (02:07:11.918)
She's the perfect combination of actions per minute at a steady state for flow state. Because Daredevil just gets to a point where it's not button mashing, but the speed of the inputs just kind of gets dull and old. With Magic, there's a flow to it. There's a piece to it.

Death And Gaming (02:07:25.795)
Yes, exactly.

Captain Coach (02:07:26.5)
That's kind of like how Hulk is. I might like Magic then. I've only played her few times.

Coach Mills (02:07:26.655)
can see that. Yeah, I can see that.

You would like magic. You would definitely love magic for sure. And she loses to all the same things that Hulk does. So it's like perfect. It's like, yeah. Yeah. It's still like, I think no changes. Yeah. That's reasonable. No. So I thought y'all could hear the spinning this whole time. I'm hearing the satisfying. It's like satisfying. And I'm like, Ooh, this is going to sound good. It's not in the, it's not in the thing. I can't turn it on for some reason unless, so I can put it on Chrome, but then there's going to be like,

RauKnows (02:07:31.159)
she's a flow state character, yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:07:32.44)
Yeah.

Cap'n Coach DPS Magic Arc. Yeah.

RauKnows (02:07:37.004)
Hahaha!

Captain Coach (02:07:37.801)
Haha, it's perfect. I can be just as miserable and angry.

RauKnows (02:07:40.386)
Match made in heaven.

Death And Gaming (02:07:41.709)
No.

No change, yeah.

RauKnows (02:07:48.834)
No, we sit in silence.

Captain Coach (02:07:50.916)
I've been,

Death And Gaming (02:07:55.893)
Add it in post.

RauKnows (02:07:59.906)
How about you just make the sound Vorus as it goes?

Coach Mills (02:08:01.614)
okay, I got you, got you, perfect, okay.

Captain Coach (02:08:05.38)
Yeah, as long as there's some sound.

RauKnows (02:08:05.986)
Tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick.

Coach Mills (02:08:07.593)
Drumroll, please?

Captain Coach (02:08:11.524)
Finally!

Coach Mills (02:08:13.651)
Jeffrey We gotta get rid of these fucking team ups guys like what the what is he should not he I mean his team up with pool the dead pools Which by the way can't be banned out unless you ban every single fucking pool because he could just do it with any of them is basically a cloak bubble on like an act like he gets a cloak bubble as a cooldown

Death And Gaming (02:08:16.653)
Delete, remove.

Death And Gaming (02:08:20.899)
All the team ups, get rid of all the team ups. You should not have 17 buttons.

Captain Coach (02:08:41.068)
Somebody in my discord said that the reason Jeff has so many team team ups is because Jeff players don't have any friends I'm sorry Jeff mates. I used to do it with the Jeff main. I was his friend I was

RauKnows (02:08:50.178)
They're trying to make sure that Jeffs aren't getting flamed by Insta-locking.

Coach Mills (02:08:53.279)
Come on!

man.

Coach Mills (02:09:02.685)
Rest in peace, Coffee Cringe. I'll miss you.

Death And Gaming (02:09:03.299)
What I hate... Dude, Jeff is one of those supports for like... You're going to find people who are absolute demons on the character and are just going to like hard carry a lot of games or you're to find people who are just throwing. Because like, what I really hate about Jeff is nothing to do with this kit or anything else. It's the fact that he is the only one that is allowed to die every single time he ults and no one says anything. If a Cloak and Dagger gets mag-ulted three times in a row, your team's going to crash out.

RauKnows (02:09:29.262)
You

Coach Mills (02:09:29.919)
Yeah

Captain Coach (02:09:31.736)
What?

Death And Gaming (02:09:32.707)
But if Jeff gets up mag ulted three times in a row, everyone's like, wow, that's just Jeff. Yeah, good Jeff players almost never die in their ults. And it just me crazy. That's the only reason that I can't stand this hero, because I'm like, which Jeff am I going to get? Am I going to get the demon on my team, or am I going to get the 20 death Jeff?

Coach Mills (02:09:36.979)
That's just...

RauKnows (02:09:37.619)
Shit, yeah.

Captain Coach (02:09:50.052)
And there's no way to control it. Like you could set it up. You could be like, hey, I'll bubble you. I'll do this. And then the Jeff will just like eat me by accident or something. Something will go wrong. It's just like, well, we tried. Like, it just never seems like it works out.

Coach Mills (02:09:51.47)
Hehehehehe

Death And Gaming (02:09:54.955)
No.

Coach Mills (02:10:01.747)
Okay

Death And Gaming (02:10:03.915)
There's no in-between and you can't assist them in any way. Yeah, it drives me crazy.

Captain Coach (02:10:08.196)
I wish I could just like know what deaf players were thinking, you know?

Coach Mills (02:10:10.759)
bubble bubble yeah

Death And Gaming (02:10:11.053)
That's another solo alt target for sure.

RauKnows (02:10:11.329)
Yeah, I don't think you want to be in that head. I don't think you.

Captain Coach (02:10:13.654)
Hahaha

RauKnows (02:10:18.222)
What is Jeff? What do we... I don't even... Timo. Okay, okay, okay.

Coach Mills (02:10:21.435)
we put him in the team up change. Team up change, just I think, because I do think he is one of the strongest characters in the game right now for supports, because he enables a dive. if you got rid of his team ups, he would be much more in line with what he should be, I think.

Captain Coach (02:10:21.462)
I-I-

Captain Coach (02:10:31.021)
Yeah.

RauKnows (02:10:35.576)
He's one of the few characters that has a low floor that can also be meta. Which is kind of crazy.

Coach Mills (02:10:40.125)
Yep. Yep.

Captain Coach (02:10:40.268)
It's very high ceiling. Yeah, very high ceiling.

RauKnows (02:10:42.882)
I just, think we can all agree never go back to DPS Jeff with that Luna team up. Dude, trying to duel that, my God.

Coach Mills (02:10:46.015)
yeah, I know it's it's terrible. Yeah. drum roll Neymar man just clapping and everything y'all can't hear this. I'm getting all the I'm getting all the stimulation. This is fucked up. Wait, maybe

RauKnows (02:10:53.954)
No.

Death And Gaming (02:10:57.315)
in

Death And Gaming (02:11:01.729)
Just record it and put it in post. Just drag it each time.

RauKnows (02:11:03.851)
Hahahaha

Coach Mills (02:11:04.77)
Oh God. Wait, let me try something real quick. Let me try something. Well, I'll do it after this. Okay, name more. Name more. What do you put? Name more.

Death And Gaming (02:11:13.724)
If you remove the, I mean team up change with Hello, that's the only thing, like otherwise, like he's actually in the good spot finally.

Captain Coach (02:11:15.3)
Yeah

Coach Mills (02:11:18.235)
Yeah, I think that I think I don't really think you need a nerf him or nothing. I just let that team up. Just just get rid of it probably.

Captain Coach (02:11:20.631)
No, Nemours? Nah.

He hasn't really gotten too many changes.

Death And Gaming (02:11:26.467)
Does anyone disagree?

RauKnows (02:11:27.32)
We need to make his bubble stay still again. Anyone remember OG Bubble? He just had to sit there and look pretty.

Coach Mills (02:11:31.679)
he couldn't move? I kind of forgot that that's a thing. Wait, he can't... That's crazy that that's a thing. I'm not gonna lie.

Captain Coach (02:11:32.878)
I didn't know that.

Death And Gaming (02:11:34.339)
You

Captain Coach (02:11:36.822)
I did not know that.

RauKnows (02:11:37.045)
god.

Death And Gaming (02:11:37.101)
I didn't even realize.

RauKnows (02:11:42.964)
It was so pointless. You're one health, so you just freeze yourself in the middle of fight. No one can heal you or anything.

Captain Coach (02:11:49.316)
Ha ha ha.

Death And Gaming (02:11:49.539)
You're just gonna die in like two more seconds after that

Coach Mills (02:11:49.683)
That's actually, that's... Can y'all see this? Well, that seems like there's ads now, but okay. I think y'all will be able to hear this now, but it's... We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out.

RauKnows (02:11:55.286)
It looks prettier, it's like spinning.

Death And Gaming (02:11:56.739)
see

RauKnows (02:12:03.554)
No more truth?

Death And Gaming (02:12:04.587)
truth gotta click to find out. there's there's sounds.

RauKnows (02:12:07.564)
Yeah, there you go.

Coach Mills (02:12:08.16)
Hey, y'all can hear it. Y'all can hear it. Okay. going back to the list is going to be something, but we'll figure it out.

Captain Coach (02:12:11.022)
Let's go.

Coach Mills (02:12:17.343)
Mmm, mantis. Ayyy. So yeah, you know.

Captain Coach (02:12:18.5)
Yeah

Captain Coach (02:12:28.29)
I think they should really look at Mantis and go into her identity as like a martial artist, a melee character, and she can alter the mood of people by going up and like touching them. And she's maybe she has like a, I don't know. think she, I think they should full rework this hero because clearly they do not know how to balance her and she's been busted pretty much since launch and she's fun.

RauKnows (02:12:52.364)
It's tough. love her kid. Like the idea about like balancing resources is really cool, but.

Captain Coach (02:12:59.042)
Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. It almost feels like she's kind of like lifesteals a little bit, though she, like the passive healing she gets, but I don't know. I think they've struggled for a while with her to make, I mean, maybe they have, I don't know. they, when was the last time they really done something to her other than?

Coach Mills (02:12:59.752)
It is cool.

Coach Mills (02:13:15.113)
You got, you should, I think you should change her ult and make it something completely different. Like something, something, something niche, something nicher, something more dynamic maybe. And in an effort to make it she doesn't just slot into every triple support and make it busted, give her, I don't know, just a completely different, I would like to see her have like a, like a DPS ult. Give her like a fucking DPS ult would be really cool on that character.

RauKnows (02:13:21.538)
Yeah, it's just a watered down version of every other strop.

Captain Coach (02:13:21.752)
I could see that.

RauKnows (02:13:39.757)
I agree.

Coach Mills (02:13:43.487)
I don't know what that would be, but it would be kind of cool.

Captain Coach (02:13:46.296)
Maybe she turns big in red and can start karate chopping people. Maybe she has an alt where she, like if you're in the radius or something, you make the enemy team fight against each other for a little bit. Like Renata from LOL. That could be really cool. I mean, that would be lore accurate, or whatever, accurate. Yeah, yeah. It's like a charm where they just look at each other and just shoot their primary.

Death And Gaming (02:13:46.787)
it.

Coach Mills (02:13:48.949)
yeah

RauKnows (02:13:50.958)
Wait, that sounds like a Marvel character.

Coach Mills (02:14:00.148)
yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:14:08.205)
turns on friendly fire.

Captain Coach (02:14:16.302)
for a couple seconds, maybe it could be cool. Would be definitely OP.

RauKnows (02:14:19.79)
Wonder if you ever made an ultimate that was the reverse of soul bond that it makes Someone who takes damage the rest of their team takes damage as well something like that

Coach Mills (02:14:29.06)
I see what you're saying. Yeah, you mark somebody.

Captain Coach (02:14:29.348)
Mm-mm. I just think they really need to lean into the CC aspect of her. I really think that's what makes Mantis as a hero kind of unique is that she can change sleep, make someone go crazy. She can alter emotions. the whole damage amp, yeah, I get that. Maybe that should be a little part, but it's obviously what makes her so toxic, I feel like. Because you get your alt charge quicker, and that's really what I think they need to rework about her.

Death And Gaming (02:14:55.755)
You know, I'm like so torn because of the fact that like when it comes to supports and support alts, I think hers is like the most well balanced and the most like, you know, in terms of like massive healing alts, it's probably the most fair, but also at the same time, I do really like the idea of changing to two and to be in like my manipulation and kind of like leaning into that and seeing what could happen. So I'd be open to a rework, but I do like.

Coach Mills (02:15:04.627)
Ooh! Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:15:16.937)
What if instead, you know how like Tank Pool ult, you select someone and they take damage? What if you could Mantis ult select someone and it like reduces their damage to 10 % for eight seconds? Like you single out one person and they don't do damage for the next eight seconds basically. So like it's basically a single neutralizer. Cause you're calming them down, you you're minimizing their effects, you know.

Death And Gaming (02:15:29.571)
Thanks

Captain Coach (02:15:42.308)
I think you should be able to pick a teammate and it could be yourself where you just make them like a big red monster. Like they just get bigger and red and it's just a damage. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:15:48.729)
yeah, it just is.

RauKnows (02:15:51.349)
with you for a second.

Death And Gaming (02:15:52.636)
I think you gotta be careful of also locking players out of their abilities for too long.

Captain Coach (02:15:57.132)
I want to see more interactions between heroes that you have tactical decisions of who do I want to use this on. I think with Mantis, it's just try to get damage amp on as many people as possible. But really, it's just going to be the top damage dealer. With an ult, maybe it gives you a CC break, but gives you a bigger hit box. So maybe you don't always want to put it on a DPS. There could be cool options with that. And I want to see more unique ultimates out of supports, not just AOE heals. I think she needs a rework, personally.

Coach Mills (02:15:57.524)
BLEH

Coach Mills (02:16:25.471)
rework? Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna lie, it needs to be one of the other of rework or nerf. Like right now in the current state, she's undoubtedly this like that she's the reason that triple support exists. And it is probably the strongest composition to play. I mean, she just creates that.

RauKnows (02:16:35.778)
there.

RauKnows (02:16:41.614)
It's tough. I failed nerf. I actually think she has one of the best designs in the game. You're rotating resources. It's connected to landing headshots. She's a mechanical hero. Her sleep is kind of cringe. Her ultimate's not that crazy.

Coach Mills (02:16:50.333)
Like, yeah. Cause how do you balance her to not enable triple sup? Cause that's really what she does is she enables it more than anything else. Cause like, that's the whole thing is when you lose a DPS, you're supposed to lose damage and kill potential in a comp. And Manchester says, nah, actually you have just as much, sometimes more. And I think that's kind of the problem there is that she's like, and then she just like her.

RauKnows (02:16:57.57)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:17:16.475)
Utility is just better than DPS utility including her old that's why I was saying if you if you moved her old and changes to something else Then some of that sustained utility like yeah, you're you're adding a support, but you're only getting the heels You're not getting also like a sustain old you're not getting all this stuff. You're getting You know, you're basically getting a DPS with some sustain like she's should be closer to a DPS if you gave her a DPS old She would be like more along the lines of a DPS

Captain Coach (02:17:39.751)
I

I think they should just double down on her identity as a buffer, debuffer type, and keep her a hybrid, get rid of her support ult, maybe lower her healing a little bit. just like, yeah, if you're going to play her in triple support, she's there for damage pressure and utility. But yeah, she's not going to have that much healing. And you could keep her self-sustained, Rao.

Coach Mills (02:17:59.391)
And then we can give Mantis's kernel to some other support. We can give her kernel to some others. Keep it in the game, but not on her maybe.

Death And Gaming (02:18:04.119)
Yeah.

Yeah. I'd be down with that.

RauKnows (02:18:10.476)
I agree. Or DPS Ultimate Rework.

Death And Gaming (02:18:12.867)
more utility.

Coach Mills (02:18:13.704)
So we're not getting the spin effect. Wait, where's Mantis? We're not getting the... well, okay. If we land on Mantis, does it count?

Captain Coach (02:18:13.902)
But I do agree she is fun.

Death And Gaming (02:18:26.881)
Well, Venom Expert.

Captain Coach (02:18:27.246)
Venom.

Coach Mills (02:18:28.578)
Venom, Venom, Venom, next up on the block. We gotta nerf this character. I play Venom a lot. This character's completely busted. He's just too strong right now in the way that the game is played. He's just too strong. He baits out cooldowns. He applies a lot of pressure. You can play with a dive, you can play without one. The problem is I don't really know what that nerf looks like that's fair.

He feels busted in a way that it's because of the meta that he's busted. Because he hasn't really changed all that much. mean, the tenacity change definitely helped him, but he's been this strong for a long time. I feel like it's one, a combination of people underrating this character and two, just the meta just favors him now. So yeah, I mean, if you wanted to pull us out of a dive meta, you could definitely just straight up nerf him. But I don't know. What do y'all think? What y'all think about him?

RauKnows (02:19:13.034)
is very meta dependent.

RauKnows (02:19:23.886)
I had I love his skill something mechanically his ultimate. I think it's fine. It just maybe maybe shorten his stay time in some way I Don't know how you do that

Coach Mills (02:19:31.647)
Mmm.

Death And Gaming (02:19:34.115)
I don't know, less over health, shorten the cooldown on the swing.

Coach Mills (02:19:37.299)
you could give him less overheld. The problem with that though is that that allows him to stay in against certain like hard CC comps where it's like you're basically making it so he's very hard to play into those comps but you're not making him any harder to play into the comps that don't have hard damage. It's kind of like always the problem with him is it's like.

Death And Gaming (02:19:55.042)
now.

RauKnows (02:19:57.314)
What if you got less overhealth but he was CC immune during the overhealth and it didn't last as long? So you could get CC'd before you pop it, but then it kind of guarantees your escape but you don't get as much and it doesn't last as long? So you...

Coach Mills (02:20:03.357)
Less overheld, but see.

Captain Coach (02:20:03.819)
Coach Mills (02:20:11.455)
I I don't think you want to make him CC immune to be honest with you. I think that makes this character really, really, really busted even more.

RauKnows (02:20:18.402)
No, I'm talking you have to crank down the over health though. Because right now that's his main problem, Because he requires mechanics. It really is just his stay time.

Coach Mills (02:20:20.935)
Whoa.

Coach Mills (02:20:26.751)
Just make his primer even harder to hit. No, I'm just kidding. I'm not entirely sure what they should do with him. I honestly think they should probably just nerf his overhealth by like 15 % and that's probably fine.

RauKnows (02:20:31.128)
Yeah

Captain Coach (02:20:41.848)
How about they just make it so you get full alt charge when breaking the overhealth instead of a reduced amount? Because that feels so terrible. Usually when venom pops overhealth, even if I want to break it, I'm like, I'm going to get less alt charge than if I hit somebody else. So I'll just wait for it to go down.

Death And Gaming (02:20:43.255)
That'd be enough.

RauKnows (02:20:49.496)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:20:54.889)
Well then he's just a giant old battery for everybody, which is... makes him very hard to justify playing.

Captain Coach (02:20:59.82)
Yeah, but you should be using that shield to survive. it's like...

Coach Mills (02:21:03.293)
Well, I mean, yeah, but he needs to, his whole play style is cycling in and out as many times as possible. Like that's what he wants to do, to bait a pressure, bait attention and charge his support support holes or his, yeah, mainly his support support holes, you know? So if they got to get it just all the same, then I think it kind of does hurt him.

Captain Coach (02:21:19.522)
Yeah, that's a good point, actually. All kind of functions the same way. Just kind of.

RauKnows (02:21:23.672)
Yeah, like I won a game the other day going like 5-0 on venom. I had like a quarter of the elims the rest of my team. I just survived. I was annoying and I survived.

Death And Gaming (02:21:23.683)
I think just a little nerf.

Coach Mills (02:21:29.927)
Yeah, you do so much. do so much. Yeah, I think probably like a 10, 15%. I'll put him in the nerf category, but I could also see justifications that the enablers are more important than him. Like the enablers being Jeff as an enabler, Daredevil as an enabler. These are the characters that are the reason that he's so strong, even though he is the strong, I think he's probably a top two tank in the game right now.

Captain Coach (02:21:31.744)
Yeah, no, I definitely agree with you.

Coach Mills (02:21:58.079)
But I could also just see just hit the source hit the source and you nerf the comp like straight up so I could see both arguments. I gotta delete these venom and mantis.

Death And Gaming (02:22:11.223)
Manchester's number three. Bent them at the bottom.

Coach Mills (02:22:19.387)
Alright we're going speed. Now we're going real fast boys, we're going real fast. Daredevil. Quick thoughts. Nerf? Nerf. Everyone's on, I'm on nerf too but what do you specifically, what do want to nerf? Is sustain? the mark.

Death And Gaming (02:22:26.763)
Nerve.

RauKnows (02:22:28.149)
fan.

Captain Coach (02:22:28.74)
nerve.

RauKnows (02:22:33.378)
The mark, has to be the mark. The mark is everyone compared about, or everyone complained about Elsa's over shield and her passive, but Didi literally gets a perpetual mark that gives damage reduction, speed, a free engage, wall hacks. Like there's so much. correct me if I'm wrong. I played a little bit of him on my melee account. If you'd mark someone, kill them, you can instantly mark and dash in a new person, which is a cool skill ceiling mechanic, but it's just busted. There's no.

Death And Gaming (02:22:55.863)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:22:58.749)
I mean, but if you get, but if you got rid of it though, I think you ruined his way to engage.

RauKnows (02:23:03.33)
No, not get rid of it, but that, I feel like that's how you nerf him. You don't nerf his staying potential, you don't nerf his damage, that mark just has so much value.

Coach Mills (02:23:10.207)
I would probably nerf his survivability. that's what I would possibly, yeah, I was probably nerf. Cause I wouldn't want to mess up his, I think the cycles is good. Yeah. I think the deflect should be not as long. I think that's the big one. I think you could also reduce his health a little bit or reduce the amount of shields he gains a little bit.

RauKnows (02:23:13.762)
You think so? Would you shorten how- his deflect is really long.

Captain Coach (02:23:22.924)
I agree with the deflects. I also agree with the mark.

Death And Gaming (02:23:29.091)
This is deep like this better than the the vibranium shield like

Coach Mills (02:23:34.835)
But I see what you mean, because I do think Mark is busted. So is his ability to see through walls. Like all of that is really strong. But that's kind of like, I think it's part of his fluidity is that Mark, his ability to kind of snowball his advantage, right? Because you have to get the kill. And if you do get the kill, then you can go on to the next person, right?

RauKnows (02:23:35.0)
Yeah, that deflect lasts so long.

Captain Coach (02:23:41.314)
I think you keep that because that's kind of a core identity.

RauKnows (02:23:50.573)
Daru.

RauKnows (02:23:54.446)
Should there be a punishment to flipping around the mark too much without getting the kill? Because right now he can just remark, instantaneous, right?

Coach Mills (02:24:00.287)
you see, yeah, I think that makes sense. It's like if you mark somebody and you try to move it, like there's a, have to wait like at least four seconds to remark or five seconds or something like that would probably be right.

Captain Coach (02:24:02.253)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:24:10.435)
The huge problem with Daredevil is how quickly he can get in and do a massive amount of damage to where even if he dies, a lot of times he's either trading for someone in the backline or someone on the front line of your team has fallen over because they literally had to sink all of the resources just to survive the fact that he can blow up a support in like two seconds. And even...

RauKnows (02:24:29.698)
Yeah, the buffer is on that character insane.

Death And Gaming (02:24:31.613)
Yeah, like even if you try to do your best to mark him as a DPS, like I banned Daredevil not because I have a difficult time with him, I'm actually fine going up against Daredevil, it's because I find that most people don't know how to play against how quickly he does things and gets things done. And especially people, you know, if there's anyone filling on support and there's a Daredevil main on the enemy team, like you're done. You just can't do anything.

Coach Mills (02:24:49.887)
They're just gonna, yeah, they're just gonna die. Well, like, this is the argument that I'm gonna kinda argue from Light's perspective, because he kinda gave his opinions on Daredevil before. Daredevil's like the diver that can get through some of the crazy sustain in the game and can challenge some of the strong off-anglers like Gene. Like, a lot of divers don't have that capability. They can't deal with the sustain in the back line. They can't off-angle. So like,

Death And Gaming (02:25:09.505)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:25:17.713)
I don't know if nerfing his damage is that solution. I'm not 100 % sure. I don't know, wait.

Death And Gaming (02:25:22.243)
I think it's more about like how you, sorry, go quicker. It's kind of like how like magic, there's her fights, she's powerful, but her fights aren't as quick. And something more about like using your abilities, because if she portals correctly, she dodges the damage and she can outplay someone next to her, but it doesn't feel super fast and unfair. That's kind of how I imagine Daredevil would also be similar, just like, it's not about how fast you hit your buttons, it's about when you hit your buttons.

RauKnows (02:25:22.584)
Maybe make him...

Very fun.

RauKnows (02:25:49.272)
Yeah, that's why I think Psylocke is

Coach Mills (02:25:49.373)
I mean, that still matters more than people think. swear, a lot of people say that this character is just a button match spam character. You're like, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. mean, if you're looking at a lot of the new weaving text people are doing where they're going upwards, they're kind of like, looks like they're doing the wave, because they're flying up and then down and then up and then down. The character is not easy to do all that at the max level and the max skill ceiling, but.

RauKnows (02:25:56.014)
So it's high APM, but it's intentional APM. Like it's not just hitting random buttons.

RauKnows (02:26:17.868)
I think Psylocke is a good like goal to push DD2 because she has similar burst potential through sustain but it's hard as hell to hit precise wise and she's squishy if she gets caught out and messes up. Like he needs to either have a... His... Her poke really isn't all that great though. Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:26:32.797)
mean, Psy can poke though, like he can't poke at all. I know, like his whole, like my argument is that he can't poke, so he has to engage if you just make him less survivable and like increase those windows, like less health, less shields, and then make it so that that deflect doesn't last anywhere near as long. There's just more windows of risk. We kind of talked about that a lot, it's just like the windows of risks.

RauKnows (02:26:55.298)
Yeah, he just needs to have more risk, because there's not much inherent risk.

Death And Gaming (02:26:59.245)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:26:59.251)
But I think we all can agree when he needs to be nerfed in some way. just, I don't, I want to be careful about nerfing him to the point where you just make him worthless when like.

Death And Gaming (02:27:07.948)
Yeah.

RauKnows (02:27:07.95)
Is it crazy to say, remember earlier you said when someone's meta for so long it's okay for them to not be meta? I'm actually at that point with DD. I'm kind of sick of this character. Like I'd be fine. There's other melees that are more fun to play against.

Coach Mills (02:27:18.543)
You can't but you can't you can't say that without putting I I don't think that we can reasonably say that without putting namor in the nerf tier without putting hella in the nerf tier without putting without putting gene

RauKnows (02:27:29.441)
But is it crazy to say he's been top three duelist since he came out? He's actually been in prominence longer than Elsa.

Coach Mills (02:27:33.699)
yeah, but that first season and a half, no one knew what the fuck they were doing, to be honest with you. But like, Gene has been a top three DPS since the beginning, like since Gene's been released too. I know that this kind of turns into like this poke versus dive, know, poke versus brawl nonsense, right? But like...

RauKnows (02:27:39.278)
He is a very high skill ceiling character. Yeah, just more punishable

RauKnows (02:27:52.269)
Ha ha ha.

Coach Mills (02:27:57.119)
I do think like nerfs are definitely needed. would I would err towards his survivability more than anything else, but I could understand you wanting to nerf some of his damage and uptime or like death's I was saying.

Death And Gaming (02:28:00.459)
Yeah.

RauKnows (02:28:07.502)
I'm down with him having the burst, that's why I said Sai. Like I'm down with him having an insta-kill. He just needs to be more punishable if he messes it up. Cause let's be honest, his one shot combo is easier than Sai's. But he can also get away, that's the thing, is make it harder to land or make him more punishable if he messes it up. Cause I'm down with him having that mechanic of insta-killing something. Cause it is hard to do, but yeah, it just needs to be more punishable.

Death And Gaming (02:28:32.867)
I think we can all agree that just like, know, none of us want to like nerf him into the ground where he's like unplayable, but he just needs a shift in power in some way that makes it feel like there is a way. I always, the way I always think about it is like going up against it, needs to feel like I had an ability to outplay that scenario. And it wasn't just, I was, you know, no matter what, I just never win that scenario. Right.

Coach Mills (02:28:49.887)
Right, Okay, let's move on. We're gonna try to go really quick here, guys. Captain Coach, you're gonna kick us off with whatever it is.

Captain Coach (02:29:03.926)
I know nothing about this hero. All right, I'm going to say probably leave him where he is because he's getting picked in pro, right? And I've seen maybe like two support pools ever play the character well and ranked. So he's probably pretty high skill scene is my guess. I'm going to stop babbling now. I'm to let someone else who knows more about this hero talk.

Coach Mills (02:29:14.847)
Yeah, is.

Coach Mills (02:29:26.985)
I know anything. think the character is probably minor buffs. You could probably give them minor buffs. I think you could reasonably give them minor buffs, but...

RauKnows (02:29:34.882)
think you buff maybe his floor, not the ceiling, because like you said, he's played in pro play. Make him a little bit more friendly, because he's very popular character. And it's fine to have high floor characters, but for a popular character, I think you want an achievable floor without pushing the ceiling too high.

Death And Gaming (02:29:50.327)
Yeah, I agree with that.

Captain Coach (02:29:50.754)
Yeah, no, I agree. It seems like it's hard for him to really succeed when support alts seem to be more reliable.

Death And Gaming (02:30:01.795)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:30:03.699)
Yup, I, yeah. Yeah, just small boss. I think really minor though, like very minor, like maybe a small heal buff or a level. Ryre.

RauKnows (02:30:08.662)
And floor, not push the ceiling, because you don't want to make him busted in pro play.

Death And Gaming (02:30:10.467)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:30:12.991)
Probably level slightly faster maybe would help. Storm!

RauKnows (02:30:17.698)
Meta-dependent and fine? Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:30:18.993)
I think this character is fine. What do y'all think? I think the character is... Maybe a new team up? Can we get like a... Can we get like a Squid NATO? You know what I'm saying? Or some shit like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:30:28.672)
Mmm.

RauKnows (02:30:29.026)
Sharknado. wait, we aren't.

Captain Coach (02:30:30.212)
You guys seem to be forming your opinions more about their balance in the meta. I'm forming a more about what I kind of view the hero in terms of like Marvel and like the comics and the shows. So like, obviously I think Storm also could use a rework because I think she's just so like, yeah, like she's so, she's, her alt's cool, but I really think they should try to, yeah, go ahead.

Death And Gaming (02:30:41.047)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:30:41.389)
yeah, this character is not that.

RauKnows (02:30:48.366)
She's so passive for how aggressive and demanding of a hero she is.

Coach Mills (02:30:58.131)
I guess the weird part is like she definitely fulfills a character archetype that has existed in other games, right? Like she's an enabler, right? I feel like any character that gets that archetype, people are gonna think is boring. Like, cause that's not, that's no one's. Well, that's what I'm saying. But there's no character that should be that. Like does that, does that effect just never exist in this game? Like who is, who should be Storm? You know, like, like her kit. What character in all of Marvel would people be happy?

Captain Coach (02:31:11.19)
Yeah, well, she shouldn't be that. She shouldn't be that. She's Storm.

Coach Mills (02:31:27.645)
that their whole kit is just, I'm an enabler.

Captain Coach (02:31:30.126)
She should be like a mage, like heavy, like wide. She should be like the torch, like the zone control big, like from above, like in utility. So like zone control that's easy to dodge, but like controls parts of the map in utility. That should have been Storm. I think they missed the mark on her rework for me, boys.

Coach Mills (02:31:38.426)
throw tornadoes down and shit? Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:31:48.191)
What do think, death? Rework?

Death And Gaming (02:31:48.643)
I can see it work, Honestly, like...

RauKnows (02:31:50.51)
I can see her in any of the rules too. I don't know if they'll ever, I would like to see them do a rule swap.

Coach Mills (02:31:53.329)
I you know I fuck it. I'm down for I'm down for rework too. I'm down. I'm down make this character different

Captain Coach (02:31:57.794)
I don't think Caps should be in rework, by the way. think his was more of like a buff slash nerf, depending on.

Coach Mills (02:32:03.369)
Whoa, where would we put that? IDK! Boom! IDK! Alright, moving on, moving on. We gotta go quick.

Death And Gaming (02:32:03.617)
Yeah, put them buffers.

RauKnows (02:32:05.134)
Say nerd. Balance wise he's the best tank in... Okay, that's fair.

Captain Coach (02:32:07.104)
I balance what, yeah, there you go, there you go.

Death And Gaming (02:32:09.164)
I don't care yet.

Cap is a buff his shield. That was it.

Captain Coach (02:32:17.354)
Mm-hmm death

Death And Gaming (02:32:19.683)
Oh, I got thoughts on this one.

Coach Mills (02:32:21.862)
Mmm, I think we should definitely nerf rocket by the way for those of you who are listening at home IDK, you know, I'm just kidding. What's up death knowing?

RauKnows (02:32:22.156)
Hehehe.

Death And Gaming (02:32:26.753)
He needs his mobility back. need to give them the 10 meters on that. They need to increase the speed of being able to go from right click to left click so he can do damage a little bit more consistently. They need to either rework the res beacon or nerf it entirely so that way it's not the core part of his kit. And the ultimate is actually fine. I think the rest of his kit is actually pretty good. I don't need the dashes back. It's just they

Captain Coach (02:32:32.558)
Preach.

Coach Mills (02:32:40.18)
Boom.

Death And Gaming (02:32:57.239)
And I was gonna get into this later, but every change that they've done to Rocket has been done in a way that every Rocket player hates. it makes him, it is only, all the changes that he's gone through has only benefited everyone else. And all of it just hurts him.

Coach Mills (02:33:03.935)
Hahaha, yeah, yeah.

RauKnows (02:33:04.578)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:33:08.588)
Yeah. The people who haven't started playing Rocket yet are like, this here is really easy.

Coach Mills (02:33:12.969)
Yeah, it's actually funny. It's actually funny from the beginning from his old change to his movement change to his to the ammo pack team up change. Like every change is just people complaining about playing against the character or with the character, not the character themselves, like being vocal and like people that play the character. I blame no damage rocket for not talking. I'm just kidding. But yeah, yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:33:30.017)
Yeah, all rocket players.

Yeah, no, all it's so frustrating to me because of the fact that like I was always encouraging people to use his mobility to be more proactive with him how to use them to get kills and stuff and then they're like, yeah, we're going to nerf his mobility and buff the res beacons. I'm like, fucking why? you know. Yeah, other direction.

Coach Mills (02:33:52.511)
I would love if they got rid of his rez beacon and gave him an ability that could fight, that he could use to help his team or fight back. It'd be really cool to be able to fight. A lot of supports can fight back and a rocket can kind of fight back because his damage is actually surprisingly high. But imagine an ability that could double down on that or like give him some other playmaking, you know, something. I think it'd be cool instead of rez, instead of rez.

Captain Coach (02:33:53.464)
Yeah, it should be the other direction, the other direction.

Death And Gaming (02:33:59.821)
Yeah. Yeah, 100%.

RauKnows (02:34:01.87)
Okay.

Death And Gaming (02:34:08.971)
It's really good.

Death And Gaming (02:34:14.051)
Yeah, no, it's so frustrating because of the fact that like one of the things when they're just like, oh, support players just want to be passive. I'm like, every rocket player wants to get rid of the res beacon and they want a grenade. They want more mobility. They want all the other parts of the kit that make them fun. But like, it's just really frustrating because they went the entirely opposite direction for some reason. I just don't know why.

Captain Coach (02:34:14.947)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:34:33.262)
Yeah, to me, I think they should buff him and remove all his passive value, like make him better in the higher ranks, but remove all his free just shields, ress, make the heals maybe a little harder, but overall make him actually stronger as a hero. More mobility.

Death And Gaming (02:34:49.921)
Yeah.

RauKnows (02:34:50.124)
I feel like they need to go the same direction that they did with Jeff like they killed sniper Jeff It's getting so old of just this raccoon just sitting off in the distance not moving Just spamming his heel res beacons man like get him involved in the fight get him closer make his kit better when he's up close like get him involved in the fight to where the movement and the damage actually comes into play

Captain Coach (02:35:10.306)
You just made me think of what Cuffee said the other week where it's like rocket players are the most disappointed because he's supposed to be like the smart hero. And in the game, he's the dumb. In this game, he's like the most simple, like, no brain needed.

Death And Gaming (02:35:10.592)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:35:24.611)
I will say that like he, yeah, like he is the, like at the skill floor, the easiest I think to get value out of. But in my experience playing him and like pushing him before the movement nerf, there was so much potential that he had that people were overlooking, especially with his mobility and his ability to like shred tanks and do damage. And they just, they just ruined that even more because it was already difficult before, but you know, they did like one change to his left click, but that was the...

Coach Mills (02:35:50.353)
I have an idea. What do you think about this idea? So I remember back in the day that the, it was the season one or zero, the rank one rocket would like climb a wall and then pop off and heal. Climb a wall, pop off and heal. And just do that like at the very top of the skybox. What if you ran as rocket and then the further you ran, you like charged up your right click. And then you would like, it would be a bigger ball depending on how much you ran. Like you gave like a.

Death And Gaming (02:36:03.783)
yeah, your airborne rocket.

Death And Gaming (02:36:16.834)
you

Coach Mills (02:36:17.395)
Like you could, if you run, if you ran along a wall for a little while, so basically the reason that I'm saying this is because you're gonna get a big burst of healing. You're not not healing when you're wall running, because you're gonna, it's gonna pay off for a big burst later. You know what saying? Like, it's not like you feel the need to heal bot, because you could give a big burst to your team if you're running away. Like this skill to that.

Captain Coach (02:36:23.277)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:36:31.733)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:36:36.292)
How about you? mean, because I mean, most rockets probably do this anyway. But when you hold down your right click, it's a charge. And you have to click each individual one. So you could do a mix of both and have different size orbs going out.

Coach Mills (02:36:49.503)
okay. Yeah. Little, little, little options space. Yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:36:50.445)
think there could be options there with that as well, like, you know, either one. Yeah, because like, you know, the goal is to try and to me by design encourage players to do things through the design. And right now, because of the fact that literally there's all these super fast moving characters, there's, you know, Black Panther, Daredevil, Black Cat, know, Psylocke, and then there's Rocket where we're just like, we're going to nerf your legs. So that way running on walls is even more pointless than before. Like it's faster to walk in a straight line.

Captain Coach (02:36:54.37)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:37:14.047)
No!

RauKnows (02:37:14.381)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:37:19.691)
at a slower speed of six meters than it is to get on the walls. Before it was like, if I get on the walls, I can move a little bit quicker. But now it's like, there's no point. As soon as you attach yourself to the wall, you're gonna die. So yeah, it's just.

Captain Coach (02:37:29.102)
Yeah.

RauKnows (02:37:29.24)
What if every time he got attached to the wall, like, it was kind of like Panther's buff that people joked about of like, you can constantly get your double jump back. What if he, every time he attached to the wall, just automatically gets a rocket jump that you can use off of it?

Death And Gaming (02:37:41.987)
You definitely don't want to do that. I can... Yeah, yeah. No, no, I agree with you, but like it is really all about his wall crawl move speed. Because as someone who uses, who abuses the wall dashes, like you, those wall dashes make it so you're so strong and you're so unkillable that, you know, it was crazy to me that they, you know, that they nerfed, they nerfed his mobility when his like, his wall dashes like made him really strong. But like the reason why he's strong is just the, it's just the damn res beacon.

Captain Coach (02:37:42.338)
That, that BOP. That BOP.

Coach Mills (02:37:43.161)
Yeah, that'd be yeah. Yeah. No, no, I I think I think I think they could do a lot

RauKnows (02:37:44.27)
I just want the character be involved. I'm so sick of that hero like

Captain Coach (02:37:48.333)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:38:07.107)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:38:11.681)
Like bringing back someone from the dead is too freaking powerful. Like, if you want to lower his win rate, just get rid of that.

Coach Mills (02:38:14.943)
Yep. Just get rid of that,

Captain Coach (02:38:21.156)
Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.

Coach Mills (02:38:22.335)
I also want to change what pops out of his reds beacon by the way. I want to change it. I want to add some new things to it. well, I guess if you remove the reds beacon, it'd be fine. Strange is our next character. I think this character's in a really good spot right now.

Death And Gaming (02:38:34.199)
Good.

RauKnows (02:38:36.13)
He's so good at the only thing that makes him OP is that it's almost a new team up change. He didn't need that.

Coach Mills (02:38:39.677)
That Invis, that Invis. But it feels so good though. You'll say he doesn't need it, but he wasn't even a top five tank before. Like he's a top, he's good now. I still don't even think he's a top five. I don't even think he's a top five tank right now.

Captain Coach (02:38:39.844)
Seemup did not need it.

Death And Gaming (02:38:49.283)
think he's good.

Captain Coach (02:38:49.796)
Mmm. He was creeping up for a while.

RauKnows (02:38:55.15)
Right now with the team of I think, is. Especially in a Gambit meta, he's one of the hardest counters in a Gambit meta.

Captain Coach (02:38:57.226)
I think he is.

Coach Mills (02:38:57.619)
What would y'all put? Gru, Gru, Emma, Tankpool? Are we gonna put him above Hulk or below Hulk?

Captain Coach (02:39:06.308)
I mean, this used to be a matchup that was really easy for Hulk, it's like pretty like strange there's so much damage now.

Coach Mills (02:39:07.571)
He might be five.

Well, I'm not talking about a one on one. I'm just talking about in the meta.

Captain Coach (02:39:18.538)
I would put above. Yup.

Coach Mills (02:39:19.743)
You put above, okay, maybe put him number four. But like with, if he had no Inviz team up at all, he'd probably not be right? I think that team up kind of pushes him over the edge. Like here's my argument for why I think the team up's good is because there's a lot of good tank lines depending on what team ups are around. like Rogue is viable with the Gambit team up, Strange is really good with the Inviz team up. Like depending on the team up that's set.

Captain Coach (02:39:28.451)
I mean, that's

Coach Mills (02:39:45.629)
then you can decide your tank line. I saw Boger talk about that in a clip where he like, it gives you options like, and they're strong, like, right.

RauKnows (02:39:49.774)
do agree, like...

Yeah, I like it when the comp actually makes sense. Because like the Penny Spider-Man stuff like that we talked about before, it's one of the best that actually those two characters together make sense.

Coach Mills (02:40:01.927)
Right, and like I liked, like it gives me a reason to actually play Strange, because otherwise I'm not gonna play Strange because I don't wanna have the risk of not being able to pour back. But when I do get an invis, it's like that team up so strong that it actually overrides the downside. So I don't know.

Captain Coach (02:40:16.376)
Yeah. But it is a cool team up. I do agree, though. I think it's strong. I think that, to me, is Sleitner.

Coach Mills (02:40:21.799)
It is strong. It's strange on unhealthy character to be strong, I guess is what I would say.

RauKnows (02:40:27.03)
No, he's a pretty honest. He's a duelist with a shield. Like he does what he does well. think the only thing I, the last second TPs get old, maybe put like a five second buffer when you swapped them or something. That's the only thing I have an issue with, Strange. The last second TPs suck.

Death And Gaming (02:40:28.065)
I think, yeah, I think he's good.

Coach Mills (02:40:32.287)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would say no change. I would say no change personally, but...

Coach Mills (02:40:43.167)
We did talk about that we talked about that before where we I Like we we had so we had this conversation real quick. It was should we put it to where there's a cooldown so you can't TP back you can't you have to be strange to use it or Is that part of the gameplay loop of rivals at this point that should just be maintained like it's like one or the other because because on one hand it's kind of bullshit that every time you win a fight you have to fight again, but on the other hand

Captain Coach (02:40:44.569)
that's right. I agree. Yeah.

RauKnows (02:41:04.814)
sure.

Coach Mills (02:41:11.825)
It makes you believe that you can always fight again. Like there's always a chance to catch.

RauKnows (02:41:15.086)
But it's kind unhealthy because then it encourages not playing him in OT and I don't think you should ever have an ability or something that inherently makes a character bad to pick in that way.

Coach Mills (02:41:24.093)
Yeah, but if you made it so only he could have it, then everyone would play him. You have to play him because it's such a strong effect, you know? It's like, it's almost, that effect is almost too strong to the point where it's like...

RauKnows (02:41:37.25)
think he's in a good place as a character. The team, if we had to put him on this, probably team up.

Coach Mills (02:41:40.649)
Team up, team up change. Okay. I can understand that. What about you? Death team up change or I have them in no change personally.

Death And Gaming (02:41:47.043)
I have them personally in like no change myself. I think the team up is strong, but it's not like super super impressive that it feels like broken

RauKnows (02:41:50.52)
Yeah, that's

Coach Mills (02:41:53.321)
What about UCAP, final answer?

Captain Coach (02:41:56.302)
Rework is E, probably slight nerf on the team up. don't know where that would put him. Yeah, I'm fine with no change.

RauKnows (02:41:59.15)
I think no change, no change.

Coach Mills (02:42:00.231)
Okay so we're- we're- IDK! Boom! Okay, IDK! Alright, moving on, moving on. Moving on.

RauKnows (02:42:05.366)
Yeah, no change is good.

Coach Mills (02:42:11.569)
Alright, quickly, Star Lord Rao.

RauKnows (02:42:14.252)
I'm biased, but I think he's fine. Like he's one of the highest skill ceiling mechanical characters in the game and he's very, his ultimate at lower ranks can be abused. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:42:16.648)
I think it's in good spot.

Coach Mills (02:42:22.047)
His ultimate's a little bullshit. I would prefer a better one. I like his team up a lot playing him, but it is bullshit. But I like it. I mean you saw me play Dyr. I guess get to do some absolute bullshit with it, but...

Captain Coach (02:42:26.582)
His team up is a little bullshit. It's more like a, nah, I know you do. I know you do.

RauKnows (02:42:33.41)
Yeah, but-

RauKnows (02:42:39.084)
He's a weird character because it's the same thing as Sy, same thing as Soldier 76. It's like, it's such a fun mechanical hero and then they give him an AOE spin and aimbot. Like, such a good core hero and then weird abilities on top of it.

Coach Mills (02:42:49.695)
Yeah, I We can have one but not both I think I think you could keep the AOE Change his ultimate or change his ultimate keep the AOE I would probably change his ult, but he's fine

Captain Coach (02:43:00.58)
I think Star-Lord is fine too. I would put team up or no change.

RauKnows (02:43:03.16)
Bayes goodwere is him.

Death And Gaming (02:43:04.503)
He's fine.

RauKnows (02:43:07.264)
Yeah, you and the team.

Captain Coach (02:43:08.756)
Dude I hate his team up so much. It's like you gotta go look for it like

Coach Mills (02:43:09.599)
I love that team, but you can find it, but you can find it and you can wait for a starlord and kill him for free which is nice too. Yeah, just don't break it. DPS pool! What the fuck does this character even do? No, I'm just kidding. I think this character's fine. People keep getting better at this character every single, every single day that passes people get better and better at this character. And he's just one of those characters I still think it's a little too soon. Because you could easily break this character too.

Death And Gaming (02:43:10.462)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:43:17.38)
Wow.

Death And Gaming (02:43:35.595)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:43:38.038)
I agree. has flashes where I'm just like, my god, nerf that hero. But then I see him other times where I'm just like, maybe I was overreacting a bit.

RauKnows (02:43:42.434)
Hahaha

Death And Gaming (02:43:47.703)
Yeah.

RauKnows (02:43:47.791)
What's your guys opinion on the other two pools being gun pool and then he is just melee? You don't gun? Do you like that each of the pools vary in that or do you want them all to be more of a balance of gun sword?

Coach Mills (02:43:59.164)
I like that he is. I think I like that he is. Cause I think the most fun aspect about him is that he gets the resets on the bounces. So like that's a cool part. Like it, yeah.

Captain Coach (02:44:09.892)
I always wish he was more sword oriented. I would play more if I could just full on play like more of a sword style.

Coach Mills (02:44:16.339)
Yeah, that's kind of DPS pool, is very sword oriented, basically.

RauKnows (02:44:19.736)
Yeah, he's all sword, yeah.

Captain Coach (02:44:20.068)
Hmm. I maybe that's kind of what they were going for. It's like, you pick one for this, one other for that. I think he's fine. Lowkey, though, I think this hero's OP. But yeah.

RauKnows (02:44:29.216)
It's good.

Coach Mills (02:44:32.255)
You gotta give it time. I think he's actually one of the hardest characters to master in the entire game, to be honest with you. That might be a hot take, but to play him at his absolute ceiling, because it's just very hard.

RauKnows (02:44:32.856)
Give it time. It's like Black Hat, let people learn them.

Captain Coach (02:44:36.076)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:44:40.964)
Seems that way.

Death And Gaming (02:44:44.803)
I think there's a lot of those characters that they're like Spidey where when Spidey when the game first came out everyone's like Spider-Man's terrible but every Spider-Man player never gave up and they kept pushing and getting better and better that character till eventually got to the point where they're just like wow this character feels like it's busted now right in the right hands eventually these characters might need nerves but we're not there yet yeah

RauKnows (02:44:59.64)
Man.

Blackout's gonna be scary.

Captain Coach (02:45:03.64)
Never give up, DPS pool players. Stick with it.

Coach Mills (02:45:04.721)
All right, next up.

Coach Mills (02:45:14.111)
Okay, Luna, freaking snow. She just got her damage up to damage and healing up to is it 24 now or 22 or whatever it's 22 to 24. character can fry man, like crazy fry and the team up with White Fox is not between that and getting frozen. It's a lot. It's a lot, but I almost like her in the state she's in. I know that this might be a hot take, but

RauKnows (02:45:21.998)
Yeah, was a 22 to 24.

Death And Gaming (02:45:22.017)
Yeah. Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:45:28.024)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:45:36.675)
wasn't very good last season.

Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:45:42.333)
She doesn't feel like Invis where she's super oppressive to play into. She feels more straight up where she has strengths and weaknesses and she has to hit her shots too, like her primary and she has to hit her freeze. So I probably would say that she's fine, but I'm curious what y'all have to say.

Death And Gaming (02:46:01.581)
She's fine. Honestly, like she's gone through so many changes and like now like I get people are just like, people are surprised and shocked like why does she get to do more damage than Hel, it's like because Hel doesn't have to worry about healing at the same time and being dove by multiple people like under context.

Captain Coach (02:46:14.04)
Wait, that's not a reason though to make her stronger because of...

Coach Mills (02:46:21.183)
I mean, but she doesn't do more damage than Hella though. Like that's not true though. She doesn't do more damage than, I keep hearing that. It's not true. She doesn't do more damage than Hella. No, if she triple dinks someone in the head, yeah, but Hella, burst damage matters. Individual target damage matters. It's that's like, it's the dinks, the long range dinks that Hella provides is, it's not even remotely close to the same. Hella can two tap headshot you from across the map.

Death And Gaming (02:46:22.071)
But she was crap. She wasn't good last season.

Captain Coach (02:46:24.526)
Be... Her overall power budget...

RauKnows (02:46:30.156)
With herself snowflake, it's pretty close.

Captain Coach (02:46:32.022)
She kinda does though because she's safer.

Death And Gaming (02:46:37.377)
yeah.

RauKnows (02:46:37.71)
Yeah, she doesn't have the same burst, No, I agree.

Death And Gaming (02:46:40.483)
Sure, sure, sure. It's not the burst.

Coach Mills (02:46:51.193)
like if you're, if you, well, if you're not, if you're not full HP, I mean, most of the time you're not.

Death And Gaming (02:46:51.851)
Yeah.

RauKnows (02:46:52.398)
20 meters now.

Death And Gaming (02:46:56.035)
Do we want her to be strong with damage? Do we want her to be strong with sustain? Like, I... Yeah.

RauKnows (02:47:01.068)
think she's good here now though because so many strategists have to, they don't have to pick who they heal. I like that she has to decide who, and she can miss heals. Like actually hitting some characters with her heals, it's a challenge.

Coach Mills (02:47:01.821)
Yeah, I...

Coach Mills (02:47:09.396)
Like.

Death And Gaming (02:47:09.965)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:47:12.991)
Cause I'm curious what you think, Captain Coach, cause like, would you rather her just be way more sustainable instead of having this much damage? Cause that's the only other way to go. Cause she was dog shit before this change.

Captain Coach (02:47:14.137)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:47:19.48)
No, I I liked, okay, so the initial nerf to her ultimate was obviously like an amazing change and definitely was needed. And I'm okay with her, because I think everybody's like missing the point. It's the fact that she can self snowflake now that really changes her as a character. Like now she can get close enough safely to actually get her damage off. think, dude, I was watching OnlyLegs today. He makes the character look so broken.

Coach Mills (02:47:44.799)
I mean come on that's fucking only legs bro. Come on, bro Yeah, like that's only legs

RauKnows (02:47:46.19)
One of the top 76 players. But the thing about self-laking, then no one on your team gets heals. I like that. I like when people have to make a decision.

Death And Gaming (02:47:50.848)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:47:51.682)
But just...

Coach Mills (02:47:55.369)
There's a cost, there's a cost there.

Captain Coach (02:47:55.992)
Yeah, right. But you've got to be careful with that because she's going to become what I like to call a stat check character where if you try to push her too far in one direction, you're going to have to do it through just like, you saw what they did. They just gave her more damage. I mean, it's.

RauKnows (02:48:13.337)
Hear me out, leave the healing to, like they buffed everything by two, leave the healing to, take away the DPS to.

Coach Mills (02:48:20.191)
I actually think the opposite. I want this character to do more damage. I want this character to do more damage. I think Luna's that don't do damage should be heavily, heavily punished. I think a lot of her kit should be in the fact that she can do damage. To me, she feels like a glass cannon in that she's harder to survive than Invis, but if she stays alive, she gets to fry. And that's the cost that they give her.

RauKnows (02:48:22.829)
You leave the damage and then less.

Captain Coach (02:48:25.838)
Yeah.

RauKnows (02:48:26.627)
Yeah.

RauKnows (02:48:33.165)
I never wanted to go back to Healbot. That was my biggest disappointment here when this game came out.

Death And Gaming (02:48:33.219)
I think... No.

Death And Gaming (02:48:44.739)
I think that people need to really be encouraged, especially when it comes to like playing support. No matter what support you're playing, if you want to carry, not just like, you know, sustain or whatever, if you want to carry games, you have to be doing damage. it is always, whether it was Overwatch or whether it's Rivals, if you add to damage on targets at critical moments, like you'll carry more and do more and encouraging players to be more proactive that way, I think is always better than, you know, trying to sustain through a lot of stuff.

RauKnows (02:48:56.336)
damage.

Death And Gaming (02:49:13.985)
like cutting back on the sustain and just being like, hey, you know, now you have the ability to carry. Like that's, and that's Luna's, that's what Luna's neutral kit is really great at is you weave in that damage at the exact same time. Like if she claps, the moment that a Hulk is diving on the back line, like just that little bit of damage is going to be enough to a lot of times secure a pick. Like that's what, that's what people need to be thinking about.

Captain Coach (02:49:33.26)
Yeah, I like the direction she went in. I think she's probably a little on the strong side, but overall, I would say no change.

RauKnows (02:49:40.015)
I think she's the most drastically changed character since the game released. She started out as such a heal bot with a horrible ult, to now she's like, she's what support should be balanced around.

Coach Mills (02:49:42.493)
She has she is she has been

Death And Gaming (02:49:50.688)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:49:52.639)
My Groot.

Death And Gaming (02:49:55.489)
Like, can we change this all charge already?

Coach Mills (02:49:56.147)
I have a hot take here. I think this character needs to be nerfed straight up. Mostly, and only one thing about him needs to be nerfed and it's the charge rate of his ultimate. think it's like one of the strongest ults in the game and it charges faster than like any other tank ult and most ults in the game. So that's it. If they just did that, yeah, it could literally just be like 10, 15 % and it'd be fine, but you know, 20 would be fine too, but.

RauKnows (02:50:00.143)
Yeah, no, no, that's a fair.

Death And Gaming (02:50:00.161)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:50:05.633)
Yeah, exactly.

Death And Gaming (02:50:12.045)
That's it.

Captain Coach (02:50:17.922)
How about another idea had is, cause he's so oppressive against dive, make it so melee damage does a little bit more damage to his walls just to help out with those. Like that wouldn't even help that much, it just in like, I mean, I don't know. Just so there's not this constant supports having no help doing killing them type thing.

Coach Mills (02:50:27.591)
Oooooh, okay.

Coach Mills (02:50:37.023)
I mean, a lot of that's kind of a skill, but yeah.

RauKnows (02:50:37.763)
He's one of the few characters in the game that takes a full team play. Yeah, that's right.

Captain Coach (02:50:40.416)
I agree, I agree. But just something like I-

Coach Mills (02:50:42.399)
Like it there's there's nothing that makes me more mad than an entire team playing dive like it's a side daredevil venom cap and then you have two supports that want to stand main and they get walled off and it's like it's like motherfucker just I was like I was like, yeah I was like play play Jeff play rocket play even fucking Ultron play Adam play Loki play any character that can go oven play white Fox like Go over the walls, but they're the ones that are saying gambit can do it too. They're saying

Captain Coach (02:50:51.734)
Yes. Yes.

RauKnows (02:50:51.983)
It's a cloak and dagger bouncing heels off it.

Coach Mills (02:51:09.939)
that everyone else needs to swap. Everyone else is on the same fucking page, but they're not on the same page and everyone else has to swap. Literally all the supports besides Cloak, Invis, Luna, Mantis can get over it. All of the other supports can get over or around or take an off angle. All of them. Support pool, what it is. my God. Yeah, how are they supposed to know the team's on dive, bro? The wall is wall. Okay, all right, all right.

RauKnows (02:51:14.017)
It's object permanence.

Captain Coach (02:51:28.014)
Wow, did you hear what he said? If they don't see him, then they're not there. That's typical support players.

RauKnows (02:51:31.329)
It's object permanence.

RauKnows (02:51:38.499)
Guys, can someone shoot the wall?

Captain Coach (02:51:41.444)
They're screwed.

Coach Mills (02:51:42.729)
Cause that's the thing is like a whole full dive comp, there should be no value that Groot's wall is really getting main. The walls need to be used to isolate fights that are being dove onto them. So they're using it to help him brawl, right? Not cutting off supports line of sight main. That should never happen. I'm just gonna crash it.

Captain Coach (02:52:02.382)
Luna's not on the board.

Death And Gaming (02:52:06.627)
and no change.

Captain Coach (02:52:06.724)
I think we said no change,

RauKnows (02:52:07.16)
change.

Coach Mills (02:52:08.543)
Okay, All right, remove.

RauKnows (02:52:10.553)
think that leads to a good topic and a chance to help spread education to your audience is we need to get out of this idea that duelists are the only role that our situation will need to switch. I think tanks and strategists also have their... Are you good? We can hear you.

Coach Mills (02:52:15.313)
we lost him?

Hello?

Coach Mills (02:52:22.535)
Wait, did I lose internet?

Captain Coach (02:52:26.788)
Yeah, well you're here.

Coach Mills (02:52:27.492)
whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hello? okay, sorry. we're back. Everyone's... I can see everybody back.

RauKnows (02:52:27.919)
Death death is out. Oh Oh wait, no, man. Okay, we're good Yeah, you're really still I was impressive

Death And Gaming (02:52:29.805)
What? Hello?

Captain Coach (02:52:32.532)
He was just sitting really, really still.

Death And Gaming (02:52:35.811)
Oh, that's my bad. I was just listening in. Is it still working?

Coach Mills (02:52:38.26)
Whoa.

RauKnows (02:52:42.67)
I think we're-

Coach Mills (02:52:44.295)
Okay, I'm having a little bit of technical difficulties, a little bit lag going on. Are y'all good? You're good? Okay, we're on Moon Knight now. Moon Knight is the next pick. Where does he go on the list?

Death And Gaming (02:52:45.965)
Alright.

RauKnows (02:52:48.451)
They're fun. Yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:52:56.299)
Nerf is all charged, maybe?

Captain Coach (02:52:59.333)
I mean, I think having a less reliable alt that it comes up a little quicker is, think that's like, you know, it's kind of like Deadpool, you know, it's kind of part of his identity a little bit.

RauKnows (02:53:00.503)
Fine.

Death And Gaming (02:53:08.779)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:53:09.887)
You could give him a team up, a different team up maybe. I know he'd say that a lot, but I don't really think he needs any changes. He's not weak.

RauKnows (02:53:13.295)
answer.

Death And Gaming (02:53:14.561)
He has a team up now?

RauKnows (02:53:16.495)
Yeah, I think he's in a good place.

Death And Gaming (02:53:17.751)
Yeah. Yeah, we can leave him.

Captain Coach (02:53:18.102)
I agree. I agree.

Coach Mills (02:53:19.359)
what is it what even is a steamer for now

Death And Gaming (02:53:22.499)
I don't even know if he has one still, does he?

RauKnows (02:53:25.947)
He's the anchor for Blade. No, he lost that.

Coach Mills (02:53:26.963)
Man.

Captain Coach (02:53:27.34)
He doesn't have the stealth one anymore, does he? That one was so good. That was such a cool team up.

Death And Gaming (02:53:29.398)
No.

RauKnows (02:53:33.657)
Yeah, I don't think he has it.

Coach Mills (02:53:35.239)
Is it on my end that keeps lagging out? I keep losing people. That's very odd. All right. Well, let's get... What was the verdict on Moon Knight? Moon Knight, no change. Okay. Let's move on. Move.

RauKnows (02:53:38.841)
I heard your mic cut out for a second.

RauKnows (02:53:46.115)
He's fine.

Death And Gaming (02:53:46.625)
He's fine.

Coach Mills (02:53:55.295)
Mm-hmm. Gene fucking gray. All right, death. I'll let you take it away from this one. What do you think?

Captain Coach (02:53:56.302)
to well, well, guys, hold up. got an alt account. You're not even going to make mention of it. My alt account, my alt account's name is nerf phoenix.

Death And Gaming (02:53:57.473)
Nerve.

Death And Gaming (02:54:06.275)
Nerf Phoenix? It's still Nerf Phoenix, yeah. The ability to have so much like oppressive fire and you know, be hitscan as well and her CC is easier to hit than like a hell of a CC it seems and I don't know, there's just a lot of bullshit. And for some reason, I don't know what it is, but like man, even still, nobody shoots the Phoenix Ult. How many seasons has it been and like you place down the Phoenix Ult and

Coach Mills (02:54:06.291)
What's up?

yeah, yeah.

Death And Gaming (02:54:35.111)
With Rocket AMP, even if you have a Rocket on your team and there's a Phoenix on the enemy team, as soon as you place that AMP, if you are within the the LOS of that AMP and you have range hitscan, if two people look at it with Rocket, you'll melt it. But why is it still that people are not shooting the damn Phoenix ult? Like, I don't know. It's just like, I just watch her like blow up, you know, like you'll stand in the hallway, you'll turn and all of a sudden it's just like everyone on your team is like down to like a quarter health. You're like,

Captain Coach (02:54:57.892)
Oh, how are you gonna increase your damage stats and get MVP if you're shooting a deployable? Like, what are you talking about? What are you stupid? Wasting 500 damage on that thing.

Death And Gaming (02:55:03.127)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. This is the why my SR gains are always so low.

RauKnows (02:55:04.419)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:55:05.666)
What do you think?

What do you think Raoul? What do you think about Gene?

RauKnows (02:55:12.367)
Okay, two paths, and I would love to hear your guys' honest opinion. First one, make her ultimate shootable when it's in the air. The incident that's popped, it's breakable. She has to make a decision, she has to dedicate, because so often, you have to sit there and stare at it and wait for it. The other one is, in my eyes, this game is too death-bally, especially at low ranks. I think keeping her as an anti-death ball, but making her less of an off-angler.

Coach Mills (02:55:23.943)
I like that a lot. Great idea.

Captain Coach (02:55:25.001)
That's a great idea.

RauKnows (02:55:39.971)
And I don't like the idea of making more core comp duelists, but she either needs to be an off angler or a death ball punisher. It shouldn't be both.

Coach Mills (02:55:48.839)
Right. Because she can do every, I mean, yeah, so much raw damage to death balls and off angle and win duels.

Death And Gaming (02:55:49.176)
Yeah.

Yeah.

RauKnows (02:55:52.303)
No.

I like the death ball thing. think it's good to have an anti-penny, an anti-bunker, an anti-this, but it shouldn't be able to counter to or off angle.

Coach Mills (02:55:58.762)
And, out.

Captain Coach (02:55:59.844)
Does Moon Knight kind of do the same thing as that? Like kind anti-deathball-y?

RauKnows (02:56:06.01)
Yeah. Yeah, but you need multiple because then you could just ban it out completely.

Death And Gaming (02:56:09.377)
Yeah. Yeah. I'd be fine if she was anti-deathball and just like, cause yeah, unfortunately, like she's a really amazing hitscan that can just like delete someone, but she can also like be even stronger when you're grouped up. So.

Captain Coach (02:56:11.716)
Sure, sure.

Captain Coach (02:56:23.236)
So maybe increase her spread damage, not so much on a single target.

RauKnows (02:56:25.85)
Hear me out, take away the stun from her thing and then make her ult breakable from it right away. Because just the damage from her stun is good enough versus death balls. You take away the stun from it, it makes it less of a vital staying alive tool. Now she can't hold angles as well. Be challenged.

Coach Mills (02:56:40.968)
I could see that too.

Captain Coach (02:56:41.828)
I like that a lot. Yeah. I mean, that would definitely change the mashup. Like, I'm just thinking for a lot of dive. Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:56:45.413)
Yeah, I mean, she's still going to be very good even without all those things, which is kind of testament to her character. Yeah, OK, I can see that.

Death And Gaming (02:56:50.84)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:56:51.904)
Those are some great ideas. Those are some great ideas. Definitely, definitely nerf. Definitely nerf.

Coach Mills (02:56:57.563)
Alright, the final stretch boys, let's get this done. Let's get this, I know. Hawkeye.

Captain Coach (02:57:01.292)
Longest podcast yet.

Death And Gaming (02:57:02.819)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (02:57:05.966)
Hawkeye, ooh, it's a tough one.

Coach Mills (02:57:08.829)
This is a tough one because I feel like he obviously needs a buff. Like he's so weak, but he's also maybe one of the frustrating characters to play into. Rework is not weird. I think that might be the actual right answer.

RauKnows (02:57:15.033)
Is rework weird?

Yeah.

He's like Widow, he's actually like, he's a weird version of Widow. Cause he can just smash tanks at a low rank and his ultimate is brain dead. Like their ultimate is just so stupid.

Death And Gaming (02:57:21.782)
Re-work.

Captain Coach (02:57:22.765)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:57:31.019)
Yeah, I honestly don't like his entire kit and let me tell you why because I was a Hanzo player back into the day I loved Hanzo and one of the coolest things about Hanzo is Let's say you're being attacked by a tracer, right? You could climb a wall 180 and if you're really good You could like flick and hit her in the head, right? Because of his whole track mechanic on his headshot. I think it makes that impossible I think it makes him want to stand main and just shoot down main. That's the only thing he does

RauKnows (02:57:35.886)
Yeah.

RauKnows (02:57:54.256)
Mmm

Coach Mills (02:58:00.607)
So he doesn't really have good dual, like you can't even outplay dual or diverse, like at all, hyper mobility catch, you can't do it. And then his ultimate, like you said, zero, it's very low skill. So like, I think he's just a cheapened version of the archer archetype. think he's not a, he doesn't feel skill, like a lot of the value you get on him doesn't feel like you earned any of it. I don't really know how to.

Captain Coach (02:58:24.578)
He's too spammy. Not enough aim.

RauKnows (02:58:26.212)
Yeah, I like the idea of the charge up, but you either need to leave the charge up and have a faster fire rate but not a one shot or you need to remove that charge up, actually give him a one shot and make him more of flick dependent. It just feels like he has a conflicting aim style.

Coach Mills (02:58:28.487)
He adds more similarity, I don't.

Coach Mills (02:58:43.551)
Yeah, I know people lose their freaking minds about a one shot, but I'm not going to lie with you here. In his current state, he's so weak. He's so squishy. You have two options here. You can increase his sustain and then he's the same character. It's just harder to kill. Or you can increase his offensive capabilities, but still make him easy to kill. Like you could do one of the other. I almost, this might be my most radical take yet. I would honestly just give, him, let him just one shot to be honest with you. Have a knockback charge. He has to just charge it.

RauKnows (02:58:51.46)
He's bad. He's such a dive target.

Death And Gaming (02:59:04.045)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (02:59:13.055)
to 100 % he can hold it, but then he legitimately can just do 275 to the head, or 300 to it.

Death And Gaming (02:59:15.779)
Yo, I have said this so many times when it comes to like one-shot heroes I actually don't have a problem with one-shot heroes But like if they if that one-shot hero hits you on their first shot like that was a well That was a good shot by them But if you peek a Hawkeye four or five times you get headshot you can't complain about one-shot heroes like we there's so much the community is just like Hawkeye is too strong because I got one shot like just stop peeking the sniper from the same window guys like

RauKnows (02:59:33.06)
You're an idiot.

Coach Mills (02:59:40.408)
Hehehehehe

RauKnows (02:59:41.556)
No, the worst part, okay, can I, I don't wanna piss anyone off. Okay, I'll be controversial. It's strat players, it's strat just players. It's low-rank strats standing out in the open, getting hit, and then being upset. Just play cover, because it's not even re-peaking. They're just standing there.

Captain Coach (02:59:53.316)
So are you saying good Hawkeye players got punished because of bad support players?

Death And Gaming (02:59:56.642)
It's-

Coach Mills (03:00:01.248)
god, not again!

RauKnows (03:00:01.775)
I've I didn't...

Death And Gaming (03:00:02.551)
I think that this is literally all of Rival's players because of the fact that if I'm on support and I'm playing Rocket and I'll watch people take too much damage, like, wasn't I healing? I'm like, I was. You cannot take that much damage all at once because for whatever reason, people think that they should just be able to take as much damage as possible and just try to dish out damage. But being efficient means taking less damage and dishing out more. And that uses cover. Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:00:04.324)
Fight, fight, fight, fight.

RauKnows (03:00:09.499)
to sustain.

RauKnows (03:00:28.561)
It's because of the sustain. They've all lost, everyone's lost fundamentals of staying alive. I've said this in a video the other day of tanks have begun to rely on their strategists to keep them up instead of their own play style. Like that's what it's become.

Death And Gaming (03:00:41.707)
Yes. Yeah. And that's kind of everybody too, because like I treat my supports as like a NASCAR pit stop. They're not going to come to me. I got to go to them. I'll go out. I'll dish out my damage. I'll try to get a pick. When it fails, I go back. I stand still next to my Luna. She heals me back up. I go back in again. Like too many players are getting away with this idea of just like, I'm just going to try and, you know, brute force everything when there's so much more efficient ways to play. And I think that with the changes that have happened with like the all change nerfs and

a lot of the stuff going more into like the neutral, it's becoming clear who was struggling and who's not. Like as soon as the neutral became more important, it seems like everyone who understood the game started climbing a lot easier, especially this last season, because of the fact that just like, oh, I can just utilize cover, I can rotate. I think the rival's player base is getting better and improving quickly, but they're still catching up.

RauKnows (03:01:36.633)
Is it crazy to say that he's almost the Wolverine of trip support? Like we need a one shot to keep this this shit from being constant meta.

Death And Gaming (03:01:43.799)
Yeah. 100%.

Coach Mills (03:01:44.147)
could be. I still I really would love it if he could actually off angle like this character can't off angle ever he has to stay he has to sit main and shoot down lanes and teams that are super passive are just gonna die to him over time like he honestly he's he plays extremely similar to a character like squirrel girl where if you don't answer him he just wins like but he's easy to like he's so he's so easy to answer though and I like I would like more dramatic changes to him like like

Death And Gaming (03:01:54.891)
Yeah. I'd be down to rework him. Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:02:05.578)
Right.

RauKnows (03:02:06.539)
He puts your team on a timer,

Coach Mills (03:02:13.373)
legitimately, I would look at other archer characters in other games and I would try to apply some of those things. Whether that's Hanzo, whether that's the sniper from TFT when he gets the arrow, the bow and arrow.

RauKnows (03:02:22.577)
Hear me out.

RauKnows (03:02:29.659)
Final thought on it, what if we gave him one shot versus squishies? Cause as a squishy main, like I don't feel bad about dying to Hawkeye. It happens, it happens. But he's not fun to play into as a tank because of the raw damage. What if you made him have that kill potential, the one shot versus squishies made him less miserable as a tank.

Death And Gaming (03:02:46.979)
That'll be fine.

RauKnows (03:02:48.421)
think you'd be in good place.

Captain Coach (03:02:48.886)
Yeah. Yeah, because he's easy. I mean, it's easier to headshot, thanks.

Coach Mills (03:02:52.383)
I feel like supports might be more like for it too. And now there's a lot of supports that can chase him more. Like White Fox has a really good Hawkeye matchup because you just, you don't play main and you can just jump in with your team and just kill him. Like he's just a free mark like every time.

RauKnows (03:03:06.961)
And if you're mechanical, Luna out pressures him. Like hitscan is the counter for him. Dive is the counter. You put pressure, he has to hit a shot.

Captain Coach (03:03:10.786)
Well, hold up. A lot of people have said we need to get more support mains on the podcast. I'll play the role of support mains. no. Don't do that, please. All right, let's move on here.

Death And Gaming (03:03:21.091)
No.

Coach Mills (03:03:22.811)
Okay, alright, so I think we're buff. We're buff? Buff rework? Yeah, buff. Okay.

RauKnows (03:03:23.375)
Next one, Buff, yeah. Buff, buff.

Death And Gaming (03:03:24.321)
I will go to bat for support still. Rework, I'd say, or something.

Captain Coach (03:03:29.412)
You

Captain Coach (03:03:35.652)
Ooh.

RauKnows (03:03:36.335)
He's fine where he's at. His ultimate's annoying as hell, but...

Coach Mills (03:03:38.931)
Well first, Wolverine! Okay, so people don't- the people that are only listening to this on Spotify, they're like, they don't know what we're talking about. Yeah. ha ha! Wolverine is, Yeah. yeah. Well you said, fine. I think he's fine. In the fucking garbage bin, delete this motherfu- no, just kidding.

RauKnows (03:03:41.777)
they don't yeah, yeah

Captain Coach (03:03:42.564)
Yeah

Captain Coach (03:03:54.36)
He's in a good spot.

RauKnows (03:03:54.671)
His

Maybe like shorten the stun on his ult and then power transfer some more small, but...

Coach Mills (03:03:59.743)
If we get rid of Rockets Rezbeacon and this motherfucker can't grab you within the first five seconds of the game and take you all the way to Narnia, he's fine. He's fine. Why does that? Like that was really cool and fun and quirky season zero and season one. It's season 7.5. That shit is not fun anymore. Like it's not fun for anybody. Like it's not fun.

RauKnows (03:04:10.656)
Yeah, that mechanic is so

RauKnows (03:04:23.484)
Did we talk about how people talk about comic book accurate? When the hell has Wolverine soared through the sky like Phoenix?

Coach Mills (03:04:28.831)
I also probably think you could probably increase the ult charge. I don't know why they ever decreased his ult. They made it so he could build his ult really quickly like a couple patches ago. Why bro? Why? This is like the top two DPS ult in the game. Maybe top one. What the fuck are we doing?

Death And Gaming (03:04:30.699)
Yeah.

RauKnows (03:04:37.83)
Yeah!

Death And Gaming (03:04:45.495)
My theory is for a lot of this stuff is that every change that has happened has happened due to the complaints about support ults. Like a lot of these DPS heroes are charging their ults faster so they can kill more often and being able to make plays. and she can, and he can, he can kidnap people out of the support ults. Like every change that I think that has happened since the beginning has been like, we don't want.

Coach Mills (03:04:57.439)
Hmm. Yeah. We could just nerf support ults instead of doing whatever the fuck this is!

RauKnows (03:05:03.696)
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't even say it, don't even, they.

Death And Gaming (03:05:13.751)
Circle support ults, so it's like, okay, so you got Gambit. It's like, we need more answers to support ults. Unless you got Elsa who kidnaps people outside of the ult. There's a lot of things that have happened that's just like, it's always been like, well, you know, Venom can anti-heal. Like, there's a lot of answers, and I think that's the reason why, like, his ult got buffed. It's like, okay, well, they can charge ults super fast, but Wolf can kidnap people, so, you you don't feel as weak anymore.

Coach Mills (03:05:33.171)
What do y'all think? Do y'all think no change? Or do y'all think Nerf is all charge, no change? It's like, can keep him now. We can keep him, we can keep him.

RauKnows (03:05:38.372)
change maybe a slight nerf or no change one those. He's niche in good way he does.

Captain Coach (03:05:42.198)
Yeah, no change. She's good.

Death And Gaming (03:05:42.711)
I think that's a no change.

Coach Mills (03:05:47.197)
remove the freaking Phoenix team up with him, what the hell? Can we get rid of that? Yeah, yeah it's actually so annoying if you're trying to play Brawl into it. Iron Fist! Ooh. I disagree.

Death And Gaming (03:05:51.031)
That's still in the game?

RauKnows (03:05:51.15)
I forgot about that. That's still a thing? That was season two?

RauKnows (03:05:57.67)
He's perfect. He's like the fundamental melee character. Other than tanks versus tanks, he's probably really annoying.

Coach Mills (03:06:03.319)
I think we revert this guy back to season zero Iron Fist. So before he killed squishies and not tanks. Here's my argument, Ralph, to convince you, because I talked to quite a bit of Iron Fist players about this. Iron Fist doesn't win an off angle duel against Gene. He doesn't have, because he doesn't do enough damage to squishies, he doesn't threaten them enough. So most of his value comes from cycling in, baiting out cooldowns.

Captain Coach (03:06:05.668)
Yeah, I 100 % agree.

RauKnows (03:06:07.996)
What was the in-seasons? Was he a squishy killer? Okay, so he didn't have as much hair.

Captain Coach (03:06:21.796)
It feels so bad.

Coach Mills (03:06:31.209)
pivoting to the front line, brawling front line, cycling in. But his identity should not be centered around tank busting. Like I just don't really understand that as a character. And I think that people freaked out about it in season zero because everyone was really low skill. This character had auto aim. So like people didn't really quite know how to deal with this character. But like you can't tell me that like season zero Iron Fist is gonna constantly kill invasives.

It ain't fucking happening, like at all, right? So like, we can nerf his survivability if we need to or something like that, but I really think like, just like they reverted Wolverine back to season zero Wolverine, cause that's exactly what they did. We could take Iron Fist and revert him back to a non tank busting, actually backline assassinating or like dueling. And I think that, I mean, I think if I look, if I think of all the good duelists in the game, they still have, they still have ways to deal with him. You know, like Namor and Elsa and Jean and Bucky, like these.

Death And Gaming (03:07:03.139)
environment now.

RauKnows (03:07:24.316)
That's for.

Coach Mills (03:07:27.743)
These DPS don't just fall over and the supports like Gambit and fucking Invis, like they're fine against Iron Fist like in season zero. I don't know. That's my take.

Captain Coach (03:07:36.342)
No, Coach Mills, I want them to buff the heel and make it apply to people around him. Love that.

Coach Mills (03:07:40.615)
Yeah, okay.

RauKnows (03:07:42.008)
Give him a giant circle that heals everyone.

Coach Mills (03:07:44.511)
Yeah, everyone just wants this character to be fucking soft. Like all the support players just want this character to be soft. And not shoot, not punch them ever. It's like, okay. No Iron Fist players wants that. Like, they took it.

Captain Coach (03:07:50.177)
Iron fist.

RauKnows (03:07:53.779)
I think he struggles with this. He struggles with the same Wanda thing of like they don't know a direction with the percentage based health. Do they want this? Like pick a direction and go with it.

Coach Mills (03:08:02.652)
It shouldn't be percentage based. shouldn't be. In my opinion, it shouldn't be percentage based at all. should.

Death And Gaming (03:08:06.011)
I think they just wanted to balance it out and have more tank busting options outside of just Wolverine so that way if Wolverine was banned there was another option in case you were going up against Triple Tank. Because if I'm playing Psylocke I will say that it sucks if I'm going to Triple Tank because Psylocke is going to struggle into that. She just doesn't output enough damage, her ult isn't going to do anything.

RauKnows (03:08:10.652)
diversity.

Coach Mills (03:08:21.735)
Yeah, it's weird because like I don't really think that you take a character that didn't have a tank busting identity and then make them a tank buster. I don't think that that really is fair to people that like Iron Fist. I don't even play Iron Fist like that, but I know that like I've talked to literally every single Iron Fist player, like all of them and none of them like that direction for the character. Because even if it makes the character better on paper, they would prefer him to be able to actually

Death And Gaming (03:08:41.419)
Yeah, I mean, I.

Death And Gaming (03:08:45.623)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:08:51.549)
You know, cause when you using deflect just as a sustained tool, okay. But using it to outplay an off angling DPS feels a little bit different. Cause the fights are more methodical cause it's like, it almost feels a little bit more like Genji deflect where you have to use it properly in order to get the value. But if they, they like withhold the damage at the right time, then they can beat you, you know, I like, I would prefer that.

Death And Gaming (03:09:00.769)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:09:11.925)
Yeah, I see where you're going. I think it's another one of those things where it's just like, I always go back to, it's not even like any specific role or anything. It's always like the community where if I'm 1v1-ing an Iron Fist, no matter the role, I feel like I'll win. But the moment that he's in there with my team, I go and I shoot him a couple of times to bait out the deflect or the block. And then I stop attacking, and then my entire team unloads every clip into him, and he gets like...

the full buff and overshield and I'm like yo guys stop helping me just stop like you're making it worse because like I I do it with a with an iron fist OTP last season and he made iron fist look super strong still but I think it's just like yeah if you like if you

RauKnows (03:09:37.596)
You

Coach Mills (03:09:37.786)
No!

RauKnows (03:09:44.914)
You

Captain Coach (03:09:52.918)
Iron Fist is dog shit. I have an easier time doing Iron Fist than I do Phoenix. Like, it's not even close. Like, I shit on Iron Fist. And he's supposed to be the tank shredder? Like, he's a terrible character. They need to go back to the drawing.

Death And Gaming (03:10:00.104)
yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, if we compare it to Phoenix, you know, that one is still insane. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:10:06.257)
That's I mean that yeah, but that's the new world we're in

Captain Coach (03:10:07.928)
I mean, get what you're saying though. What he does, he does really well. he's like a master staller, but that's, I don't know. I don't, I mean, it's cool. It's cool how he kind of plays, but I think they could still incorporate that into him being like a, still like a dive here that can, it just feels so bad. Like just getting popped by Phoenix.

Death And Gaming (03:10:13.475)
Please.

Death And Gaming (03:10:21.379)
I can see him being changed back into like a dive hero or something like that, but like, you know, can we use this podcast as a public service announcement or just like, if you shoot the block, you make it worse, please everyone. Like, like stop. Like if I'm 1v1 in.

Coach Mills (03:10:30.143)
Hahaha

RauKnows (03:10:30.438)
Yeah, please stop shooting the vlog.

Captain Coach (03:10:30.828)
hahahaha

Coach Mills (03:10:32.691)
Well, that's the thing is like people are like 10 times better at not doing it now and they're still dog shit at it compared to season zero. Season zero everyone, that's the time to shoot him. Let's shoot him. Let's fucking shoot him. All of us do it.

Death And Gaming (03:10:39.031)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:10:44.919)
Yeah, they're like, there's a solo iron fizz coming to touch the point. It's just like everyone shoot him a bunch. It's just like stop. making it worse. He's going to have 400 overheld. Just cut it out, man, dude.

Coach Mills (03:10:48.595)
Hehehehehe

RauKnows (03:10:51.174)
Ha

But the deflect sound sounds so nice.

Death And Gaming (03:10:56.043)
It's so rewarding actually, even to shoot it. A lot of my frustrations aren't even coming from the kiss of the design. It's just literally that players have yet to figure it out still.

Coach Mills (03:11:02.047)
The kids, it's just the feet. Highest IQ mains, Punisher, let's go.

RauKnows (03:11:05.362)
What you're saying is a player issue.

Captain Coach (03:11:06.702)
Hi there.

Death And Gaming (03:11:08.171)
It's always I do. I think it's always a player issue.

RauKnows (03:11:12.72)
Wait, whoa, we have high IQs, just not good situational awareness.

Coach Mills (03:11:15.359)
Uhhh, yeah! No...

Captain Coach (03:11:16.388)
This is the hero I swap to when I'm soft throwing. This is my guy. I go for the Momo plays. It says soft, what?

Death And Gaming (03:11:16.579)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:11:21.503)
soft? yeah, no, man, Punisher.

Death And Gaming (03:11:23.179)
Yeah.

RauKnows (03:11:28.722)
The shotgun okay, is it crazy to say the shotguns the only annoying part of his kit outside of that He feels like a humble hero if this shotgun just gets annoying Yeah That's fair

Death And Gaming (03:11:36.407)
Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:11:38.299)
His turret is a little bullshit that he can kind of pop that up anytime randomly. It's a little bullshit.

Captain Coach (03:11:43.407)
I think his shotgun is not even that bad. It's not even that balanced. Maybe he needs a...

RauKnows (03:11:47.762)
But that's what a lot of people complain about is either the one shot or the tank damage. I as a tracking like aim player, I love his primary fire, but the shotgun just, yeah.

Captain Coach (03:11:51.587)
BIT

Captain Coach (03:11:57.046)
It's balanced around the fact that it takes so long to swap between weapons. I feel like is kind of, at least from like the way I see it, I do think the damage of it is still maybe a little too high, but maybe increase the range of it, lower the burst.

Death And Gaming (03:12:01.891)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:12:09.277)
I th- y- y- y- y- you could- you could do minor changes, like be like- like slightly less shotgun ammo, or slightly increase the time between shots, or slightly reduce the damage, like... Just sl- y- yeah. I- I don't think he needs much if you did anything at all, I think. What-

Captain Coach (03:12:15.276)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:12:20.226)
It's fun, it's a cool mechanic.

Death And Gaming (03:12:25.407)
No, the only impressive part is the dive punny strat can be effective, but I don't... Yeah, no, he's super easy to kill. Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:12:26.011)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:12:28.041)
Cause he, he

Yeah. Cause he is at the end of the day, he's killable, right? We could kill him.

Captain Coach (03:12:34.358)
I-I-

RauKnows (03:12:34.769)
And you have to be so mechanically skilled to dive punny. Like to actually hit shotgun shots under pressure and not just feed your brains out, it's...

Captain Coach (03:12:37.259)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:12:42.007)
Yeah, and just.

Captain Coach (03:12:42.148)
And I would say like, yes, maybe reduces alteration a little bit, but give them maybe compensation elsewhere. I think his alt lasts too long personally.

Coach Mills (03:12:42.494)
Yeah, it's

Death And Gaming (03:12:48.219)
yeah. Yeah, his alt lasts way too long. Like, cut that down by two seconds. That one is ridiculous. Yeah, something.

RauKnows (03:12:54.115)
make them little bit more survivable but it doesn't last as long.

Coach Mills (03:12:54.751)
It's, yeah, it's weird because it's a glass cannon ult. Like it can be shut down. You literally could just, it's not like a, you know, like I know Scythe has its weaknesses, but it's not like you're gonna die in the middle of it, right? But he could literally just, the second he stops getting held by his team, he could just get dink dink dead. Yeah. And like everyone has seen what half their Punisher ults do.

Captain Coach (03:12:57.516)
It's tough, because it's-

Yeah, there is balance. Yeah.

RauKnows (03:13:01.489)
yeah, there's no over health or anything and you're the size of Reinhardt.

Death And Gaming (03:13:11.149)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:13:11.85)
It has that wind up time.

RauKnows (03:13:17.383)
Hawkeye can one-shot him. Yeah, like it's...

Death And Gaming (03:13:19.127)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:13:23.456)
I mean.

Coach Mills (03:13:24.029)
It's kind of like Jeff in that way. It's just like everyone all in and protects the Punisher.

Death And Gaming (03:13:24.493)
Yeah.

RauKnows (03:13:28.977)
Now with Gambit alt, we don't talk about that.

Captain Coach (03:13:29.176)
too.

Death And Gaming (03:13:31.789)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:13:32.002)
I mean, to be honest, there needs to be more heroes in the game like Punisher that I think are kind of like, maybe not necessarily full team reliance, because you can solo Bunny ult if you want and still probably work, but like definitely tend to get amplified. Right, right, some coordination. Yes. So I think he's fine. Like for the most part, changes here and there.

Coach Mills (03:13:43.455)
Yeah. It's a team oriented win condition. I actually, yeah. I could see that. could see that.

RauKnows (03:13:44.955)
It's not hit button walk W, you have to have some kind of...

Death And Gaming (03:13:54.381)
Pony is the only DPS hero where you could walk main and shoot every single time and still be getting value for your team.

Coach Mills (03:14:04.223)
He does play front to back really really well

Death And Gaming (03:14:08.899)
Yeah, because you could off angle with them, or you could dive with them. realistically, and this is where a lot of the stereotypes of the punny players come in, it's just like it super frustrating to play games. you get so rewarded for just pumping damage, and that's the part that I hate about his kit personally. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:14:26.943)
I mean, that doesn't work against every type of tank. Like I think people also need to know that you can counter him. And you can counter him without playing front to back. Everyone thinks, there's a Punisher, you have to go mag. It's like, y'all could just dive the fuck out of him and just kill him. Like, and run away from his Punisher ult and then come back. Yeah. Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:14:27.106)
That's my favorite part.

Death And Gaming (03:14:40.619)
Yeah. Yeah, you could just walk away from that alt a lot of times. You don't have to face check it every time. You could just.

Captain Coach (03:14:40.804)
Thanks.

Captain Coach (03:14:47.692)
I get so triggered. I we have a lot of support hate this podcast, every time a Punisher pops an alt, every time a Punisher pops an alt.

Coach Mills (03:14:53.348)
Be nice! What the fuck? No, we're turning over a new leaf, new leaf. We're gonna get-

RauKnows (03:14:53.435)
Ha ha ha ha ha!

RauKnows (03:15:00.189)
Cloak and Dagger Ultimate, straight ahead.

Captain Coach (03:15:02.489)
Right into it. like dude, we're all fine. We just back up for a little bit. I just man

Death And Gaming (03:15:03.435)
right into it.

I'm going to say, dude, like.

Coach Mills (03:15:09.329)
If that has been ha- is that a- fuck it I just forget it. Alright. Y'all are fucking me up right now. 3 and 15 pod. Okay. Smash that subscribe if you hate supports. Smash that subscribe if you love supports. No, no, no, See I love Rao's rage bait. love- Rao rage baits so many people on Twitter and I love it.

Captain Coach (03:15:12.542)
Hahaha

Death And Gaming (03:15:16.331)
I'm... Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:15:17.698)
Not to get punished by the comments.

RauKnows (03:15:19.923)
Like and subscribe by the way, yeah Fuck this character, but stay who it is

Captain Coach (03:15:22.916)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you.

Coach Mills (03:15:35.443)
But when he attacks Thor, it gets me. I'm the rage-vated one. I'm the one that's rage-vated.

Captain Coach (03:15:39.96)
Well, that's because he had

Death And Gaming (03:15:40.471)
Yeah.

RauKnows (03:15:41.309)
So for those of you who are listening, it's Thor. This is the character that deserves the most hate that doesn't get it. He used to be a humble hero. He is so fucking annoying. my God.

Coach Mills (03:15:47.625)
The Lee state. No, no, no, no. You know what I love doing? I love charging my pin and I just wait for the Hulk to jump the second he jumps. Boom, we're on the ground. Fuck you. you want to jump again? Boom, we're both on the ground. you want to jump again? we're on the fucking ground. Legit.

Captain Coach (03:15:48.148)
YES! FINALLY! I found another one like me!

Death And Gaming (03:15:52.237)
Kind of right.

RauKnows (03:16:00.021)
Hahaha!

Captain Coach (03:16:08.012)
I don't really have trouble with getting pinned against Thor's because they're all low IQ. I'm just joking. I think Thor is what I like. He's one of those characters that gets a lot of value for free just by using ability that really isn't that hard to use, which is his dash.

Coach Mills (03:16:15.068)
okay.

RauKnows (03:16:15.57)
Hahaha!

RauKnows (03:16:30.952)
He's the Bucky of tanks. That's it.

Coach Mills (03:16:34.143)
Now y'all are talking about the 180 kidnap, right? Yeah, the 180. I mean, do think that that shit is really busted. I don't know if we go as far as to all that over health. He's really easy to kill. Like Thor is easy to kill. He has no way to protect himself like other characters do. Like no shields, no life, like it's just his dash.

RauKnows (03:16:38.356)
Yeah, why don't you kidnap all the overhealth and-

Death And Gaming (03:16:47.043)
I think if you just go 180 kidnap, wouldn't that just be better?

RauKnows (03:16:55.72)
Yeah, I like the skill ceiling of the 1A kidnap, but it shouldn't be such a fast cooldown. Like if you're on stranger pedestrian tank, it's just repeat over and over.

Captain Coach (03:16:56.249)
That's a.

Coach Mills (03:17:01.789)
just to constantly dash? that's kind of the problem is that like if you, if you, can't just increase, you would have to get rid of the 180. Cause like you, if you just made it so that he couldn't dash, it would just fuck him up. But here's, here's the thing. This is my argument for why Thor is okay in his current state, right? I'm going to be super biased here. He has the most dog shit ultimate in the fucking game besides Penny. The ultimate is terrible.

Captain Coach (03:17:01.826)
Just a.

Death And Gaming (03:17:11.585)
Yeah.

RauKnows (03:17:12.798)
No.

Captain Coach (03:17:23.856)
He's about to QQ here. Yeah, there it is.

Coach Mills (03:17:29.789)
And like I get he has a really busted neutral, but I mean, think about all the characters we're talking about here. His ultimate is worse than everyone we've talked about besides Penny. Like legitimately a terrible, terrible ultimate that can get you killed more times than not. If he had any of a stronger ultimate, like he would be probably just super, super busted. But if you don't get value in the neutral, you're just gonna lose. That's...

Death And Gaming (03:17:45.441)
You just need to pair it with a Psylocke Alt.

RauKnows (03:17:55.412)
I feel like he's the perfect character to have a neutral ultimate. Because characters like him and DD that are going off of this resource, some kind of ultimate around that, you'd have to tune them down as neutral, but...

Coach Mills (03:18:01.831)
Right. Right.

Captain Coach (03:18:05.422)
Hmm. You mean just kind of like a buff, like a self-buff?

Coach Mills (03:18:05.705)
Yeah, I mean if you wanted to you wanted to nerf his the kidnap if y'all wanted to nerf that heavily That's fine, but we got to give him a real fucking ult That's the only thing like if y'all want to do that. We got to give him a real old you can't he can't have this like

RauKnows (03:18:16.404)
Say I don't know. It would be some kind of rework.

Captain Coach (03:18:19.524)
I think he should be reworked. I think they should turn him into more of a brawler and his alt is the awakening, kind of like Rao said, where it's like this enhanced state that he gets a lot.

Death And Gaming (03:18:22.179)
Yeah

Coach Mills (03:18:23.627)
see, the Thor players love his kit. So if you want him to be weaker, that's one thing. But for you to say that you want to rework him when you don't even play the character, like we love the way he is. don't want to, we don't want to, but we don't want to get, we don't want to change his play style. Like we don't, we don't, like it.

Captain Coach (03:18:35.32)
Thor was my first Tankman. He was my first Tankman.

Death And Gaming (03:18:39.715)
What about just take away the 180 and rework the ultimate?

Captain Coach (03:18:41.604)
I personally-

RauKnows (03:18:42.292)
He either needs to lose his 1v1 potential or his 180 because being able to kidnap tanks and force out every single angle is what kind of feels bad to me.

Coach Mills (03:18:49.523)
I mean, I could, I could agree with that. We could get rid of his 180 if y'all want to. yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:18:53.537)
Yeah. I just gave him better ultimate.

Captain Coach (03:18:56.842)
I think they should keep that part about him. Yeah, and lower his shield amount and just double down on making him more of the DPS type of tank.

Coach Mills (03:18:58.697)
Keep the 180.

Coach Mills (03:19:05.501)
I mean, the problem is the 180, like the 180 is already kind of hard the higher lobbies you go because you could just die. So like if you make him squishier, it's really hard to 180 because you could just die. Like you just.

RauKnows (03:19:12.788)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:19:12.908)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:19:15.14)
Yeah, you didn't listen to what, so like the awakening, just put that into something where it's like a longer cool down and give them more like melee power. And that's where I kind of, the hammer throw, you should be able to have more control over it and maybe use it as like kind of like a pole where you can like, like a boomerang or something. And they should make them more of like a real brawler up close, like put more power into like the, like make them kind of like honestly a little bit more like brainless.

RauKnows (03:19:39.636)
Could you ever just make his awakening his ult, make it a longer awakening, but then make his base gate, yeah, like you said, Brawl.

Captain Coach (03:19:43.449)
Yeah. Yeah, something like that.

Coach Mills (03:19:46.175)
Cause I feel like y'all are trying to reinvent the wheel on something that like Thor players love right now. Like there's not a single Thor player you'll add, you'll talk to. This is the best that Thor has felt. Yeah, I know, but that's what I'm saying is you can make him weaker. Like you're not understanding though. Like we're not talking about, y'all are talking about fundamental changes to a kit people like. If you want to make us weaker, then just make us weaker.

Captain Coach (03:19:54.468)
Of you love being overpowered.

RauKnows (03:19:56.318)
See, I just don't get it because Bucky caught so much hate.

Captain Coach (03:19:58.99)
to them.

RauKnows (03:20:01.374)
Yeah.

RauKnows (03:20:04.948)
Who, but, I don't know. It just, he feels like Bucky, like Bucky Prime of like, it's just no one enjoys playing against him other than the people who play him. He's not, he's not an enjoyable hero to have in the lobby for tanks, for duelists, like, he's not hard to play into. It's not that he's OP OP, he's just not, his kid, eh, eh.

Coach Mills (03:20:08.851)
Like just straight up make us weaker.

Captain Coach (03:20:18.82)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:20:23.171)
It's just annoying.

Captain Coach (03:20:23.172)
You just pick a lot of damage, pick a lot of range damage, and I feel like he can't really play.

Coach Mills (03:20:26.185)
Like, cause I think Thor's easily way weaker than Hulk is in the meta, like by a lot. So like, if we're talking about nerf, y'all are just talking about straight up nerfing the character and we didn't talk about nerfing Hulk. He's a stronger character in the meta.

Death And Gaming (03:20:26.593)
Captain Coach (03:20:30.424)
for sure. For sure.

Death And Gaming (03:20:30.743)
This is a hard I don't know.

RauKnows (03:20:31.241)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:20:36.164)
No, I'm not though, I'm not.

RauKnows (03:20:38.318)
Shifting shifting the power Yeah

Captain Coach (03:20:40.068)
I said rework, I said rework.

Coach Mills (03:20:41.725)
Yeah, but I don't understand the justification to rework a character that people like. if y'all just want him to be weaker, right? Like, that's what y'all want.

Death And Gaming (03:20:49.791)
No, no.

RauKnows (03:20:50.388)
want him to have a slightly worse neutral, but a better or usable ultimate.

Captain Coach (03:20:51.502)
I-I-

I mean... Yeah, I mean...

Death And Gaming (03:20:56.585)
Yeah, because like the do Thor players enjoy the ultimate or there's just everyone just hated Yeah

Captain Coach (03:20:59.384)
Just, no, I mean, yeah, and a lot of them don't like awakening. There's a lot of people who don't play Thor anymore who got pushed away when they made that awakening change. I'm one of them. Because like I said, I have over 100 games on Thor.

Coach Mills (03:21:00.347)
No, we hate the ultimate. the ultimate's dog shit.

RauKnows (03:21:02.568)
Hahaha!

Coach Mills (03:21:04.777)
But but it, but it's.

Coach Mills (03:21:14.449)
Yeah, I mean, but like they the awakening change Originally sucked because they didn't it was like half of a change that they fully completed eventually like they actually finished it down the road But they didn't do it right away and the way that they finished it was if you cancel awakening you get one awakening back like and that that fit it fixed the problem and and the hammer and the hammer throw yeah, they'd like

Captain Coach (03:21:31.128)
That's, like that and I like the hammer charge. So keep that somehow. Maybe when he pops his alt and it's maybe it's like a short cool down, like Deadpool where it like resets all his hammers or something when he uses it. And then he still gets the awakening effect.

Coach Mills (03:21:47.935)
Cause I would be fine if y'all just gave him a flat damage nerf. Like if y'all want to make him weaker, like just make him weaker, like give him a flat damage nerf.

RauKnows (03:21:55.486)
So you think a flat nerf or just awakening state nerf?

Coach Mills (03:21:58.879)
I think the flow of his, like the flow feels really good. That's what I think.

RauKnows (03:22:02.676)
So maybe just lower the awakening damage and then... but if it's ult in the way.

Coach Mills (03:22:06.467)
Like if y'all just wanted to like or I would say y'all could give him a flat damage there for y'all could just make it so that he can't 180 kidnap anymore. I think that those if you want to just straight up nerf him.

RauKnows (03:22:15.752)
think IDK is a good one. I think the best way I put it is he's not overpowered, but something about him needs to change.

Death And Gaming (03:22:20.758)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:22:23.608)
That's fair.

Death And Gaming (03:22:24.759)
It's not just like limiting like how much he can, you know, rotate and re- and off like the 180, like he can't go 180, he can go like 90 or something and then giving him a rework to his ultimate. Yeah. Cause like he, nobody likes-

Coach Mills (03:22:32.223)
Yeah, can't fully do it Yeah, like ideally the tenacity change would have stopped what he does to tanks, but it just doesn't it just doesn't stop it But ideally that would have done it. I mean it to me. It's just it's I I'll concede it as long as in viz loses her self-shield because it's crazy how we make this argument for envis where it's like or like people have made this argument where it's like they have they got used to this new thing

RauKnows (03:22:42.216)
Yeah, didn't do anything.

Death And Gaming (03:22:42.348)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:22:45.859)
That's what I mean, it's just like a 90 degrees.

Coach Mills (03:23:00.649)
So we can't pull the new thing away from them because it feels bad. It's the same thing's gonna happen to Thor. We got used to this new thing. And the only tank that we really bully is like, it's Strange and Mag. Like we don't really bully other tanks. It's just those two like front to back like dominant tanks is what we actually bully. So I don't know. Yeah. I...

RauKnows (03:23:03.892)
you

Death And Gaming (03:23:10.633)
Meg? Yeah.

RauKnows (03:23:12.34)
Thank you.

Death And Gaming (03:23:22.947)
You can put them in I don't know or rework for like the ultimate and stuff. I don't know either one.

Coach Mills (03:23:29.471)
Three left.

Coach Mills (03:23:35.967)
Hmm... Blade. What do you think, Cap?

Death And Gaming (03:23:37.571)
free work.

Captain Coach (03:23:39.044)
Play.

RauKnows (03:23:39.682)
bland character in the game.

Captain Coach (03:23:42.048)
I think he needs a rework. I'm with death. I like that his ult is not guaranteed to work like a lot of other DPS ults. But mean, cool ability, hard to use. His kit just doesn't seem like it really has a place. If they wanted to make him a life steal tank, they should have just done it. Like, well, White Fox has better life steal than Blade. Like, what are we doing? Like, what's his identity? Is it anti-heal? I just feel like they need to go back to the drawing board. I like how they kind of pushed him more in a sword direction.

But I just don't even from like a visual standpoint think he's that interesting. He just kind of looks dorky and clunky when he holds up his sword. He should be more slick and agile. I just think they totally missed the mark on this guy needs a full rework.

RauKnows (03:24:26.063)
standby I feel like they developed this guy for the zombie mode. I-I-No I genuinely he fit it perfectly and his whole theme and everything it just felt like he was made for it. He doesn't fit in the game itself.

Captain Coach (03:24:30.532)
Interesting. It makes sense.

Coach Mills (03:24:30.717)
Bye!

Captain Coach (03:24:40.056)
He feels awful to play. Like I was so hyped for playing. I'm like, I might actually try to play DPS. I played him like, this is not feeling good. Like why didn't he get the kind of weapon swap that Deadpool gets where it's like, feels way quicker, smoother. I don't know. It's just, it just doesn't feel good.

Coach Mills (03:24:41.161)
He does, he does.

RauKnows (03:24:52.585)
Yeah, it's not smooth.

Death And Gaming (03:24:53.227)
You know what I hate about Blade's existence is that every DPS player is going to use Blade as a complaint of just like, look how lackluster Blade is when so much of their cast is so strong. Blade was the one hero that they just can't freaking get right at all. And from the get go, feels like it just needs a massive rework because they just...

Coach Mills (03:24:53.779)
What do think, death?

Captain Coach (03:25:15.332)
Just give him one more damage and on his sword, you'll be alright.

Coach Mills (03:25:18.197)
Give him some more over health.

Death And Gaming (03:25:18.719)
Yeah, you know, like, yeah, we're gonna give him like a tiny buff here, another tiny buff there. We're gonna shift power that's actually a nerf. Like, you know, even playing the kit, just doesn't feel super rewarding. It doesn't feel super impactful.

Coach Mills (03:25:26.473)
He, yeah. I mean, he.

He's a character with no hard CC and no burst damage. Like you can't have a DPS with neither of those things that actually functions.

Death And Gaming (03:25:37.269)
No burst damage yet.

RauKnows (03:25:41.437)
Lean into the anti. I was actually excited to have a duelist with anti and it just feels like his anti also have his ultimates gun.

Death And Gaming (03:25:45.643)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:25:46.429)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not even severe, like... It would be cool if it was really severe. Like crank that bitch up. Like up, up. Or, or... A hundred on something. On something, yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:25:48.267)
think they were so scared of the anti-bean like too strong that they just didn't do anything with it. Yeah.

RauKnows (03:25:51.763)
You don't even notice it.

RauKnows (03:25:57.705)
Hot take, I think you could give him like almost 100 % anti right now on his primary. But on his primary, I don't think it would make him a top tier character, genuinely.

Coach Mills (03:26:05.919)
Yeah, that'd be crazy

Captain Coach (03:26:06.318)
They could even give him, so I actually just watched a part of the Blade movie recently. actually, the about it is the scene where it's right at the start of the movie where the shower of blood, they, God. really? Anyway, they could have that, like go into more of the tracking type thing where it's like he could have a role similar to maybe Daredevil.

RauKnows (03:26:13.374)
Hahaha

Coach Mills (03:26:19.309)
yeah, yeah, no, I just rewatched the movie like a couple of months ago. It's great. It's the best fucking scene ever.

Captain Coach (03:26:35.788)
where he can, kind of maybe like Warwick where he gets like movement speed and because he has, yeah, so you don't have to use your dash around the map and you're really quick and like, I think that could be, he's more of like an outskirts like tracker type.

Death And Gaming (03:26:40.337)
when he's running after someone.

Coach Mills (03:26:49.331)
What if, what if after you, what if, I was going to say, what if after you hit them with like silver bullet or whatever, there's like a blood trail wherever they go. You could follow like the blood on the ground. could see, and then there's something you can use the blood trail for or something. I don't know. Some, some type of thing.

Death And Gaming (03:26:51.019)
thought he was gonna play it.

Captain Coach (03:26:57.094)
I like that. Yeah, yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:27:00.523)
That would be kind of cool. Yeah.

RauKnows (03:27:01.011)
What if you

Captain Coach (03:27:04.867)
Like.

RauKnows (03:27:05.141)
What if you made him just slowly build up the anti? Instead of just a boom applied. I thought with his dash, was just a one time apply. Yeah. Like you. Yeah. So if you don't get him off of someone, you can build it up.

Death And Gaming (03:27:08.875)
think, is that not how it works?

Coach Mills (03:27:11.749)
No, it's applied instantly. You're saying so you could build up all the way to 100 if he stays on someone. Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:27:15.176)
out.

Coach Mills (03:27:20.319)
Yeah, then he just he just fucking he's like a leech. He will kill you. Yeah Yeah, yo, yeah, I'm up my you know

RauKnows (03:27:23.785)
He's like a Beyblade.

Death And Gaming (03:27:24.693)
Yeah. I don't know. I just imagined he was going to work like Devil May Cry, playing Dante or something. And when he came out, it just feels like his attacks are like you're using a razor blade, you're not using a sword. know what I mean? It's just like,

RauKnows (03:27:30.143)
Mm.

Coach Mills (03:27:38.481)
Yup. Okay. All right. Last two. These are the definitely the top meta characters in the game. What's up? I forgot to put Rogue. Okay. Yeah. We'll save Rogue for the end.

Captain Coach (03:27:39.95)
Beyblade Bladeskin when?

Death And Gaming (03:27:44.491)
Class 3. Rogue's not in there. Rogue's not in there.

RauKnows (03:27:46.611)
Noob Stompers.

Captain Coach (03:27:48.568)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:27:53.979)
Squirrel girl Okay. Yeah, I brought I brought up this hypothetical I brought up this hypothetical in the previous in the previous talks I had the previous pod I would love it if you made a really broken team up with squirrel girl and some ultra meta character like Gambit squirrel girl and give them a powerful team. Just some it could be mag It could be whatever the meta character is. It could be fucking yeah in viz

Captain Coach (03:27:57.284)
Hmm.

RauKnows (03:27:58.759)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Coach Mills (03:28:21.299)
But the idea is that Squirrel Girl somehow gets to see pro play because of how strong this team up is, even though this character's dog shit like in actuality. Cause I just want to see like Tap and like some other top tier pro, Terra, and like they're like fucking dueling Squirrel Girls or like some shit. like teams, teams are trying to, like I like that conceptually where like teams are trying to make a bad character work because the team up is so good. Like.

Death And Gaming (03:28:33.994)
Mm.

Coach Mills (03:28:47.763)
And my example was like, imagine if score girl was like the linchpin for Rez comp. We're like, you get Rez comp, but you need to play score girl. Like I want something like that. I think it would be really cool.

RauKnows (03:28:48.501)
Hmm.

Death And Gaming (03:28:52.427)
Mm-hmm.

Captain Coach (03:28:56.494)
Didn't she, how about a team up with Deadpool where she breaks the fourth wall? Cause she like killed Galactica or something and she like stops the clock from going down or something like that for a little bit. Wouldn't that be cool?

Coach Mills (03:29:01.247)
yeah, yeah, yeah. my fucking god. Wait, that would actually be nuts like 10 seconds. You just get to pause the Pause the time that would be insane. Actually, that'd be fucking nuts

Captain Coach (03:29:11.221)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:29:15.652)
What do you guys think? What do you guys think about Squirrel Girl?

RauKnows (03:29:17.946)
Silver players in the chat where you guys think.

Coach Mills (03:29:19.679)
Bro bro, I just just want a fucking I I want to I want to see one game the other day with scroll girl This character is busted under the right conditions. This character is busted. She's legitimately just Hawkeye She puts care teams on account on a timer

Captain Coach (03:29:20.068)
no

Death And Gaming (03:29:24.779)
soon.

RauKnows (03:29:35.449)
I go squirrel every Araco first point offense because everyone always holds the high ground. Spam, triple kill every time. It's a triple kill. Celestial doesn't matter, triple kill.

Death And Gaming (03:29:41.259)
was in the hallway, Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:29:41.7)
Mmm

Coach Mills (03:29:42.707)
Yup. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. It's good. It's good. It works. And guess what? Now you have ultimate all fucking ready so you just get to hold the next fight.

Death And Gaming (03:29:47.039)
Doesn't matter.

RauKnows (03:29:53.909)
I wish they, I hated Junkrat and Overwatch, but I wish they would go a Junkrat route of in Overwatch there were some god damn crazy Junkrats in the top 500. But that's not a thing with Score Girl. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:30:02.877)
Yep. Character was really high skill. Junkrat had a very high skill ceiling. Squirrel Girl does not, unfortunately. Yep. Yep.

Death And Gaming (03:30:08.459)
Did you guys ever play Demoman in TF2? Yeah. I why don't we just lean more into the Junkrat Demoman? Because Sticky Bombs, dude, it was so fun putting up Sticky Bombs around a corner and detonating those things, catching someone off guard.

Coach Mills (03:30:15.487)
We should, we actually should to be honest.

RauKnows (03:30:25.225)
Dude, watching those SkyWrap players just geometry check someone, just.

Coach Mills (03:30:27.123)
I mean, yeah, her, her jump in general is just awful. I just hate it. It's so awful. Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:30:27.869)
yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:30:32.842)
It's awful, yeah.

RauKnows (03:30:33.045)
It is a Kovacs bubble. The instant I shoot her, I'm like, hey, she's about to jump, okay.

Death And Gaming (03:30:35.743)
Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:30:39.261)
And guess what? I can do it again! Reset ability to jump again. No, it's actually so awful. I love the idea of giving her something like a mind that she shoots on herself that, you know, or she could shoot her own feet and blow up or fly.

Death And Gaming (03:30:39.433)
It just makes you easier to hit. Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:30:40.087)
I'm out.

Captain Coach (03:30:50.451)
I got juked by a squirrel girl last night when she jumped. She was clearly holding sideways, and then when she saw me, held back, and in the midair, she just fell down. Mismare, stunned, unfortunate. The squirrel girl was, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:30:54.039)
Hehehehe

Death And Gaming (03:31:01.803)
The counter to Hulk.

RauKnows (03:31:08.085)
do you do with this character? Cause she's busted in low ranks. Yeah, it's just...

Death And Gaming (03:31:09.215)
re-worker.

Coach Mills (03:31:11.965)
I mean, yeah, you would just have to like nerf her damage, increase like maybe add a whole nother ability. Like what if you reduced her damage by like 40%, gave her a complete new ability like a Junkrat Mine. Imagine if she could combine her jump, but then she could explode and then like fly in different directions so she has more mobility and then she also has extra damage and then you could increase the arc like speed of the primary.

RauKnows (03:31:18.622)
Yeah, rework.

Death And Gaming (03:31:19.177)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:31:31.918)
She can play as a squirrel. Go like, I don't know.

RauKnows (03:31:38.751)
She has a form transformation. She goes into the God squirrel from the one map.

Coach Mills (03:31:40.383)
we definitely have to rework old, right? That old is fucking like it's so dumb, bro. It's so dumb.

Death And Gaming (03:31:45.737)
Yeah. Dude.

Captain Coach (03:31:46.436)
Too random.

RauKnows (03:31:46.709)
Dying to it feels the most pain. The only time I die to it is if I'm near a wall and it does the double jump. That's it. That's the only time.

Coach Mills (03:31:55.037)
Yeah, but it like you can actually do some dumb shit with this old because I can kill an Invis out of her all every time because if you you just stun her into into squirrel and you just kill her

Captain Coach (03:31:55.31)
Mm-hmm.

Captain Coach (03:32:05.7)
The squirrel girl all should do what Elsos does. If you get caught. Yeah, yeah. Keep it random.

Death And Gaming (03:32:06.293)
This is another...

RauKnows (03:32:11.264)
just carries them, pulls them off.

Death And Gaming (03:32:12.747)
This is another one of those dumb situations where like, like once again, it's the Phoenix salt, it's Penny nest, it's totems, it's squids. Why is it that I always feel like every time I'm in the game, I'm the only one shooting at these things? The squirrels? Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:32:12.945)
No, it just grabs them.

Coach Mills (03:32:27.327)
And it's like one HP you're like, and then it bounces and kills three people you're like what the fuck man Like yeah, yeah And and there and it's like it's like nothing else you were doing matters cuz this fucking thing is gonna kill us all

RauKnows (03:32:28.342)
Shooting the squirrel.

Captain Coach (03:32:28.964)
ha

RauKnows (03:32:33.343)
Ha ha ha ha!

Death And Gaming (03:32:33.705)
Yeah, I'm literally sitting there as Rogue punching the squirrels, looking at my hitscan like, will you fucking look at these things?

Captain Coach (03:32:34.593)
I've

RauKnows (03:32:40.672)
Please shoot it.

Death And Gaming (03:32:45.707)
Yeah.

RauKnows (03:32:45.962)
That's the one time I felt sympathy for Stratus players is there's nothing Stratus can do to break it. So like if you're on strat you're just like pleased to god someone please shoot this thing.

Captain Coach (03:32:50.51)
No, don't want to get the...

Death And Gaming (03:32:55.363)
It's on your face, it dies so easily too, but like, this is the thing that's gonna always drive me crazy is that you are actively punished for like aiming at these things or shooting these things that help your team, but nobody fucking looks at these things that would enable your team so easily. Just like the moment squirrels pop out.

RauKnows (03:33:11.904)
Give alt charge for shooting things. Walls, low key lamps, just give universal alt charges shooting summonables. No!

Death And Gaming (03:33:17.269)
don't even think it counts towards performance SR either, which is like the most bullshit thing. So it's like if you're shooting low-key totems or penny nests, that's helping your teammates, but you get nothing for it.

RauKnows (03:33:25.002)
The war. my God going into Loki and you lose and you have a bad KD because you're the only one shooting lamps on time. That's the most frustrating thing ever.

Death And Gaming (03:33:31.839)
Yes. They're like, you're so boosted on DPS. like, you guys, what do you mean? You're not shooting any of the destructibles. dude.

Captain Coach (03:33:41.792)
I don't punch him, that's animal abuse. But then again, I do punch Punisher, so you know, same, same, okay.

RauKnows (03:33:44.349)
I don't punch them.

Coach Mills (03:33:44.809)
Ha ha ha!

Hahaha

Death And Gaming (03:33:49.949)
Yeah. Rouge.

RauKnows (03:33:52.776)
Rude.

Coach Mills (03:33:53.029)
Alrighty, final two. Looks like Rogue is up first. And I know that Cat plays this character and Death in Gaming plays this character.

Captain Coach (03:34:02.785)
I feel like this one's pretty obvious. Deth, you want to do it or? Yeah, I agree. think you're.

Death And Gaming (03:34:07.307)
I think she's great. I'm gonna be honest. I think that like, yeah, there's some other heroes in the game that are like really strong, but she is super fun to play. I think that she is underrated. Don't you dare.

Coach Mills (03:34:22.417)
I know I'm not actually not rage-mitting. think that this character is actually the I think with the Gambit team up, she's too strong.

Death And Gaming (03:34:27.717)
Team Up change, you could give her that.

RauKnows (03:34:28.054)
I

Captain Coach (03:34:28.322)
Yeah. Team up change, team up nerf, something with the team up. It's obviously pretty good.

RauKnows (03:34:33.654)
Do you guys feel that she needs a nerf or a buff in the neutral if you remove the team up? Because I feel like that's why I keep seeing from people. I think she's fine without the team up. Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:34:40.427)
I don't think so. Yeah. I think people are overreacting.

Captain Coach (03:34:41.412)
She's fine.

Coach Mills (03:34:42.685)
You could give her a very minor buff if you wanted to or a replacement team up that's not as good, but I don't think that... She's not unplayable without the team up. She just is really good with it. Like very, very, very good. Like maybe the best character in the game.

Death And Gaming (03:34:49.193)
Yeah. As... No. I... Yeah. Like every single one of her abilities is like a sort of soft CC. And so that makes her really good as what I would call a bouncer. And Captain Coach, I know you and I think we might have some slightly different play styles, but for me, her ability absorption, people are like, that needs to be on a shorter cooldown or it needs to be reduced if you miss. Like, no, because that ability absorption, you can cancel Strange Alts.

You can lock down a daredevil that's reflecting. Like anytime I see someone on the enemy team, like a Bucky, he you know, he alts into my team. I save my ability desorption, I just lock him down. Like even if I don't kill him right there, I buy so much time for my team that a lot of times he doesn't reset. Like there's so many ways to control the off angles and shut down ultimates, especially with your own ultimate and apply pressure that I don't know. Like when people are sitting there calling her weak and that she's like useless or whatever without the team up.

Captain Coach (03:35:31.18)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:35:45.951)
Like, I just don't see it. mean, like, maybe if you're in like eternity one above all, you can say that. But for everyone else saying that, I'm like, I think you're just underestimating them.

Captain Coach (03:35:47.47)
Nah.

Coach Mills (03:35:52.831)
It's mostly... sorry, you go.

Captain Coach (03:35:54.008)
The problem with her ability absorption is there's a lot of easy ways to get consistent confirms with it. But for the average player, those aren't easy to do. And they do require a bit of game knowledge and awareness of what's going on. So I think for the average player, yeah, she's definitely more difficult. And I would just say from a balancing perspective, you could make that ability maybe a little easier to hit. But the reason it's so good and why I think it's

you should keep it the way it is, is cause it's like a neutral breaker. Cause getting the DPS one is like the obvious best, but it's harder to get DPS. And I think that's why it's balanced that way. You get a 20 % damage boost. And when you get that in the neutral and you get like a good combo, you get kills. That's how you get killed. So yeah, her team up obviously just way too strong. Gives her.

Death And Gaming (03:36:33.387)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:36:41.067)
You get kills, yeah.

Captain Coach (03:36:46.36)
kind of like an out and just like absurd damage during her ult. If they just nerf the team up a little bit, I think she'd be fine. Like they don't even need to change it, but I think team up change is probably where she should go. But yeah, what were you saying, Mills?

Coach Mills (03:36:51.785)
Yeah, I agree.

Cause, well, was just saying like the reason that I think people really talk bad about her without the team up is that there's just like always something else to justify. Like no matter what, cause like all the tanks are good, right? Like, and it kind of is like a mix and match like, hey, let's do, let's do tank pool. can enable a Jeff or, let's do venom and we can enable a dive or, we have an Invis, let's play strange or, we have triple support Mantis, let's play Gru, you know, like, and so like her thing is the Gambit team up.

And I think if they just got rid of the Gambit team up without getting rid of any of those other things for tanks, it would just be harder to make that call. Cause like Hulk's still really, really good and Thor's still really, really good in that kind of like the same off tank slot. So I actually like what you said, Captain Coach is like, don't completely remove the team up, just maybe make it a little bit weaker. I think that's probably fine. And the character is probably fine.

Death And Gaming (03:37:42.771)
It does a lot of bursts and healing as well.

Captain Coach (03:37:45.22)
Part of the reason her win rate's so high with Gambit is just because of her natural synergy with them as heroes, not so much even the team up. mean, the team up's really good, don't get me wrong, but the tick damage with her after she uses her dash, and then obviously with her ult, it just really synergizes well with the Gambit. So I mean, that's why she's considered so good with him. I think the team up really isn't even as OP as people think maybe, but yeah.

If Gambit got nerfed, Rogue would, it would probably help Rogue in the long run.

Death And Gaming (03:38:17.35)
Yeah, I...

Coach Mills (03:38:17.535)
Yeah.

RauKnows (03:38:18.816)
feel like that team is one of the most well developed comp wise because it also pairs Mag, which Mag plays well with the Rogue in enabling bubbles.

Coach Mills (03:38:24.903)
Yeah, yeah, it's really strong. And that's kind of the opposite of team ups that I like, where it's strong characters that have strong team ups. I like really weak characters that have strong team ups, but yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:38:25.051)
Yeah, it kind of just is all around good.

Death And Gaming (03:38:38.827)
that kind of brings the other characters into the meta or into more creatives. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:38:41.051)
into the meta that wouldn't normally be in the meta, not characters that would be played regardless and you know.

Death And Gaming (03:38:46.697)
Yeah, I personally... Yeah.

RauKnows (03:38:47.734)
The big thing is it to match comp though.

Coach Mills (03:38:49.555)
Bro, I agreed. It does. should. Or else it's the Bucky cap one. Then it's just like, Okay, last. I agree. I agree. Last but certainly not least, what is it gonna hit?

Death And Gaming (03:38:54.621)
I like team ups that give me a little bit more choice. Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:39:01.572)
Hold up. I've seen crazier things happen with Iron Man players.

Death And Gaming (03:39:02.123)
This is going to hit.

Death And Gaming (03:39:09.119)
Rework.

Coach Mills (03:39:10.539)
read my rework primed on this guy for a long time I just give him a fucking barrel roll man Give him one movement ability that he can do midair. Just give him a barrel roll He can go meet me you can give him two charges But I just want him to just be able to do one movement so he can dodge once not crazy movement

Death And Gaming (03:39:19.389)
is.

Death And Gaming (03:39:26.059)
He's...

RauKnows (03:39:26.25)
Yeah, I never understood Angela's movement freedom, but then we have Iron Man and Adam Flight. Like, what is that?

Coach Mills (03:39:30.751)
Yeah, yeah, because it would be just really cool like you could actually outplay a hella as if you like started fighting her and then you got to you got to like yeah Maybe do a roll like if when he's flying forward he does like a normal roll like this But when he's beaming he could do a roll and then beam again and like roll side to side

Death And Gaming (03:39:30.953)
Right.

RauKnows (03:39:38.378)
Dolphin dove.

Captain Coach (03:39:47.47)
Kind of funny that the most popular Marvel heroes, a lot of them are the weakest ones just because they were designed earlier on in the game's life cycle without the power creep. Yeah, I like that idea. Barrel roll.

Coach Mills (03:39:52.307)
Yeah

Death And Gaming (03:39:56.681)
Yeah. You can definitely see how they've got... Yeah, you can definitely see how they've changed over time to, I think, be better as designers as well. A lot of these characters have a lot in their kits, but it does make them interesting both to play and to play against. you could buff and nerf a lot of things. Gambit for sure has been too strong, but the overall concept of his kit I like. And with Iron Man, it's always been that one where...

Coach Mills (03:40:02.015)
You can also give my cool team up too.

Death And Gaming (03:40:26.635)
Like I said, if anyone ever played Zone of the Unders 2, that was a game that was, you were piloting a mech and it was the only game I ever played that felt like piloting a mech was really fun. I always wanted to recapture that energy and with how fast you have some characters like Spidey that zip around, it's really disappointing that you can have someone like Iron Man where it's just like, he just sits in the sky and does a bunch of annoying splash damage. It didn't ever feel like you were playing as Iron Man ever.

Coach Mills (03:40:41.535)
Yo

RauKnows (03:40:48.982)
It's the same thing as Torch, like in all the movies he is going.

Coach Mills (03:40:51.911)
Yeah. Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:40:51.915)
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of action there and then like, you know, it's very slow and maybe there's a reason behind that because their flyers would be too much of an advantage. don't know. But yeah, in terms of like hero fantasy and whatnot, it just definitely doesn't fit.

Coach Mills (03:41:04.511)
doesn't fit, right. And he could be so much cooler. think that's a start, more outplay potential, more options. I hate it when a character's whole counterplay is pocket me. Like that's their entire counterplay. It's like, if you can keep me alive through the engagement, I win it. And that's dumb. it's actually, no.

Captain Coach (03:41:06.509)
I agree.

Death And Gaming (03:41:09.214)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:41:17.93)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:41:18.308)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, yeah, that's not really Iron Man in the comics either. Like he could have the, you know, the Deadpool, just different versions. He could be a healer. Iron Man could do it all. So, I mean, the fact that he's so reliant on help is a little silly. Yeah. I, he definitely needs a rework, but dude, I'm surprised how few nerfs we have like overall. That's a...

Coach Mills (03:41:43.741)
Yeah, yeah, cause team up change is kind of some slight nerfs I think, but yeah, mostly it's just, it's mostly just, yeah, the nerfs to the, I mean, I think we could probably agree that these are some, like seven of some of the strongest characters in this game right now. it's, and then like the only true just flat out buffs we have is Hawkeye and Sub Pool, but it's slight, slight buffs on Sub Pool and then probably a more dramatic one on Hawkeye slash buff rework.

RauKnows (03:41:48.344)
would say rework is tough.

Captain Coach (03:41:49.965)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:41:59.115)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:42:11.037)
Yeah, he bounces between like buffer rework and I think, you know, it...

Coach Mills (03:42:14.812)
Yeah. And a lot of these reworks could end up being buffs depending on how they're applied, but mostly we want fundamental changes to their core kit.

Death And Gaming (03:42:19.241)
Yeah.

RauKnows (03:42:22.124)
think the main two things to pull out of this whole cast is design characters to encourage proper play styles, don't give them too many play styles, and then design for the player that actually plays them.

Coach Mills (03:42:35.463)
Right. Yeah, because that was a really interesting point you pointed out with Rocket where it's just like all the changes done to him were not from the Rocket player's perspective. Like we need to think about who the person is playing them. And like, I understand balancing them strength wise, like that's fine, but don't change them fundamentally to appeal to other people. Like that makes no sense. It just doesn't make any sense.

Death And Gaming (03:42:46.889)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:42:58.559)
Yeah, I have a hot take here when it comes to all the support changes. My theory is that, because everyone always comes on, even though I've seen all the podcasts and stuff, and people come on and say, the support player does this, support player does for that, or whatever. And I don't think that's true. I think all the changes that has happened has happened due to the fact of the community's complaints.

RauKnows (03:43:19.352)
They try to listen to the people who don't like the loudest group is a group that doesn't know the game

Death And Gaming (03:43:25.533)
Yeah. like in season two, when like Dive was originally strong, you know, they had said like Dive is strong, but you should do your best to like try and help your back line. And like collectively the community said, fuck that. I don't want to do that. Like, I just want to support that can defend themselves, heal their other support, but also heal me at the same time. And I think that the community got their wish and they didn't realize what they were going to get. Cause like a lot of the changes when people are just like, this is what support players want. Like me as someone who played Rocket, like they changed them in all the ways that I hated.

Like this wasn't catered to me, like I didn't want any of this stuff and...

Captain Coach (03:43:57.692)
Yeah. And I bet you could say to the same thing to Enviz players who want a more like stealthy and sneaky character, but instead have a raid boss from World of fucking Warcraft, you know, like.

Death And Gaming (03:44:06.121)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:44:09.599)
Well, yeah. You guys had R.M.O.R.E. and M.E.L.I.A.T.H.O.N. and they said their three bands that they chose five months ago were Invis, Gambit, and Daredevil. Like, they don't even like the changes necessarily that happened. I think a lot of what NetEase is doing is they're balancing around the way people are playing the game and not at the character's full potential of what they can do. And that to me is like, you know, it's frustrating because like, yeah, then, you know, you have people who can...

will take a character like their full potential like Saepe who's like a know a support main he's just gonna dunk on anyone who's feeling on support on the opposite end and like one above all or something like that just makes sense but you know it's just really disappointing to me that I think that there a lot of like the support changes that have happened aren't even necessarily the ones that any of us really wanted and no one's happy but I don't know

Coach Mills (03:45:01.064)
Right.

Captain Coach (03:45:02.308)
The nerfs here and there though coming through are, I think, have been decent changes, like the cloak. I agree. It's slow and we take a step forward and a step back with Ultron. But I think they're moving in the right direction. I agree. I agree.

RauKnows (03:45:08.418)
We're moving in a good direction, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:45:09.407)
I agree, yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:45:09.681)
We are, yeah.

RauKnows (03:45:20.514)
think me and Coach Mills agree on this is a lot of people like to say they balance for a casual game. I don't think they balance for a casual game. They balance to make every character independent. They're trying to make every character be able to handle everything to increase the individual's actual enjoyment of the game and moving it away from a team play game. So it's not that they're moving it away from competitive, they're moving it away from team play.

Death And Gaming (03:45:44.927)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:45:44.981)
I totally agree with that. totally, league does something similar.

Death And Gaming (03:45:49.343)
Yeah, because...

Coach Mills (03:45:50.205)
I prefer they don't do that. They do team play more, it's hard. Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:45:54.916)
All right, I'm with you. I'm with you.

RauKnows (03:45:57.272)
That feels the worst, lower and lower you get.

Death And Gaming (03:45:59.659)
And I would agree with you that like at its peak when everyone is like coordinated and working together, it's when the game is feels the best. But when you're playing in ranks, most players are like, you know, like we talk about like playing selfishly. Like once again, I am always the only one shooting Penny Ness no matter what role I'm on. And it is like a running gag at this point. I'll be on rocket and I'm shooting Penny Ness, even though I have like a hitscan and a gene on my team. you know.

Coach Mills (03:45:59.903)
That's true. That is true.

RauKnows (03:46:12.642)
doing their own thing.

Coach Mills (03:46:22.319)
Yeah

Captain Coach (03:46:24.565)
It's funny watching death do that to a fault. It's just like, that's my DPS back there. That's my hero. I love it.

Coach Mills (03:46:27.549)
Yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:46:29.525)
Yeah. Yep.

RauKnows (03:46:32.152)
It's kind interesting to see the genre, didn't Jeff Kaplan from Overwatch just recently say if he ever made a game again, he would make it less team play? I'm pretty sure he had some kind of quote around that that like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just makes you kind of think of like, team play games at their peak are so beautiful, but they're never going to be widely accepted by casual audience.

Death And Gaming (03:46:44.331)
I think they had an interview like that, yeah.

Death And Gaming (03:46:56.011)
People just never play that way. And it's really disappointing because for me my entire play style is being a team player. All my videos are like, here's the best way to enable your team. And it really sucks because I know that when I look at the SR games afterwards, I'm actively punished. I have good win rates on all of my heroes. I play DPS, support, and tank, all three, all positive win rates. But my SR games are like 17 after a win and 22 after a loss.

Captain Coach (03:46:56.652)
Yeah...

Coach Mills (03:47:17.343)
Did you because I know you watched my video that came out today about the competitive, the rank system. I had people in my comments arguing against like their argument was that if they were just slightly better than their competitors, they wouldn't climb so that like a performance based system was necessary. That's what they were saying. That's what they're arguing for. It just.

Death And Gaming (03:47:38.795)
I think that's just like ignorance, like more than anything like...

RauKnows (03:47:42.444)
Performance-based systems can exist because it's always going to be based off statistics and statistics lag.

Coach Mills (03:47:46.441)
Don't, don't, exactly. 100%.

Death And Gaming (03:47:47.659)
Yeah, like what wins the game is it the case?

Coach Mills (03:47:50.911)
But that's the problem is I think there's a disconnect. It's exactly what you said where that disconnect is, where there are people that are kind of, they're casual in the way that they want their game, but they're trying to take on rivals and it's not kind of meeting that, where they don't really understand that they're just a cog. You're a cog in your machine. You're not gonna win every game, no matter how well you play. It doesn't matter. That's just the way that the game, that's how hero shooters are. You can't.

Captain Coach (03:48:15.524)
the

the end.

RauKnows (03:48:19.322)
It's interesting if you listen to complaints of every role. So you talk about dive tanks. I can't kill anything on my own. Or your job is not to kill. Strategist, man, I can't fight off this duelist. Well, that's not your job. It's just the core complaints of this game always come down to, well, my teammate failed me.

Death And Gaming (03:48:26.112)
Yes.

Death And Gaming (03:48:37.12)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:48:37.218)
Yeah, performance point systems, I don't think really have a place in a ranked game because at the core, if someone is in the same rank as you, as long as the rank system is like a proper like ELO system with like a curve where you actually have to like beat players better than you repeatedly, which I don't think is the case, then it's not going to matter if someone outperforms you or not in that moment. Everyone's going to have good or games or bad games. It should ultimately be about securing the win.

Coach Mills (03:48:55.229)
Right. They're them.

Death And Gaming (03:49:05.673)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:49:05.834)
And it encourages just so many toxic behaviors.

Death And Gaming (03:49:09.513)
Yeah, and there's times where legitimately doing damage is a detriment to your team. Like there's times where if you have your ultimate, you don't want to be doing damage, you want to be setting up to be able to use it. And even if you pop your ultimate, and you pull out a support, a lot of times the best thing you want to do is just get out. But you're not doing more damage in that moment. There's a lot of times where it's like, it's not understanding that nuance of what equals a good performance. And you know, what also sucks too is, you know,

Captain Coach (03:49:15.844)
100%.

Death And Gaming (03:49:40.295)
To come to the defensive support players here this instance, supports get so much hate in this game, but if you have a high win rate support, you are discredited. But you could have a negative win rate Spidey in the same lobby, and it's just because they're on that character, it's just like, but that person's on Spidey and that's the reason why we won. Oh, the 45 % win rate Spidey was why we won, not the 60 % win rate support on our team.

You know, the performance basis are is boosting people who are a lot of times mindlessly pumping damage and not necessarily playing for what their team needs. Whereas like, if you play strategically, you know, a lot of times you're going to be punished for it because like, you know, like we were talking about, like Rau said, like if you're shooting Loki totems and you're pulling out resources and you're pulling attention, you're helping your team win. For you, Coach Mills, like, you know, we play cap and venom. We're still on the convoy.

Coach Mills (03:50:34.591)
Yup. They get like three, we probably create like five more fights for our team, most likely, at least.

Death And Gaming (03:50:36.031)
But 15 points for a win?

Death And Gaming (03:50:42.783)
Yeah, there's multiple times.

RauKnows (03:50:44.218)
And people would say like, count objective time, but there's so many nuanced things like death. You'll fill this one with siloed ultimate. That ultimate is pretty average below average. A lot of times in high rank lobbies, your best bet is forcing a suit, all in a way from point and living. But that, that yeah, there's no way to track that. There's physically no way to track where the old was forced.

Death And Gaming (03:50:59.027)
Yes, and living just getting out you forced it all

Death And Gaming (03:51:06.859)
Yeah, because your goal a lot of times with the Psylocke alt is to maybe grab one person, a lot of times force a support alt, if you're lucky both, but you're trying to do that in situations where it's like away from the point, away from the objective, so you're not fighting directly on the objective. But that is a calculated decision that, you know, once again, Performance-Based SR can't understand what we're talking about. I think with like lower ELO players, they're going to have these conversations where they think that Performance-Based SR is necessary, but it's because they don't understand the...

the game as a whole, they're only understanding, you know, and this is, think, the problem, the reason why we don't have like more tank and support players as well, is because people value kills in this game and damage over all else. Like that's what deserves your respect, but it's like pulling attention, pulling resources, stalling the convoy, know, interrupting a strange TP with like a Hulk exile. Like these are game winning plays that aren't gonna be reflected. And, you know, because of the fact that people are just like, I just wanna be able to...

show off on DPS, like it just creates this environment where, you know, if the only thing that's cool is DPS, then like, yeah, of course you're just gonna have a bunch of DPS mains. Like, that's just gonna be what's gonna happen.

RauKnows (03:52:14.66)
And then points being based off of stats that encourages toxic play styles like not even a harp on strategist because they're a detriment of the own system itself. leads to the I was top heels. I was off this a lot of times the top heels is on the lot losing team because they were getting out pressured. They were getting out angled. So they're going to pump out more heels. So it just, it, goes back the whole thing of encouraging wrong play styles. Unfortunately.

Death And Gaming (03:52:18.048)
Yep.

Death And Gaming (03:52:27.551)
Yes.

Coach Mills (03:52:36.767)
Yep, unfortunately, yeah, I 100 % agree. 100 % agree. Well, it's been an awesome pod, honestly. This was really cool. This is the first time we've done this. This is a four hour podcast, gentlemen. This has been sick. No. That's going to be insane. Definitely, definitely. Next time I'll definitely do it better with the screen recorded stuff. But I think like overall, it went really smooth and I'm excited to do this again.

RauKnows (03:52:43.066)
I appreciate you guys.

Captain Coach (03:52:44.938)
Yeah. Crazy long-

Death And Gaming (03:52:50.923)
gonna be so bored of us by the end.

Captain Coach (03:52:52.356)
Appreciate you guys snickering it out.

RauKnows (03:52:52.868)
They're gonna be like, isn't that that rage baiter?

Coach Mills (03:53:06.367)
And we'd love to have y'all back for a future episode, 100%. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, mean, Rao, tell people where to find you if they want to support you. Yeah, let's go. Yeah, let's go. True. Not having Rao knows earlier, bro. We waited too long. So episode 14. And where can people find you, Death? People to support you, like you.

Death And Gaming (03:53:10.035)
Yeah. Yeah, it pleasure.

RauKnows (03:53:10.092)
fun. It was good to meet you Death and Captain I we've ran into each other.

RauKnows (03:53:19.822)
Google my name, Rouno's on everything. Three bad habits of every new podcast.

Captain Coach (03:53:21.731)
ha ha ha. Aura.

Death And Gaming (03:53:21.895)
Yeah

Captain Coach (03:53:26.854)
Ha ha ha ha ha.

Death And Gaming (03:53:31.371)
Yeah, I'm surprised, actually.

Death And Gaming (03:53:35.947)
Yeah, I'm Death and Gaming on YouTube. On Twitch is death underscore and underscore gaming. I do a lot of educational rivals content. You might have seen my stuff on how to get better. Yeah, I'm a flex player there. So I main Psylocke. I used to play a lot more Rocket and quit that. And now I've been playing a lot more Rogue lately. So yeah, you can find me usually live stream. You're making guides there.

Coach Mills (03:53:59.567)
Nice. And in work...

RauKnows (03:54:00.687)
Me and you will have to link up because we have a lot of similar mentalities and Rogue is actually out of all the Maylike characters I feel like Rogue is a character I'd love to learn. I watched god, it was Cringes, Rogue Guide the other day and holy it opened my mind up to just how much Like is it fair to say that's the highest game since character in the game beyond Hulk beyond anyone like that character just has so much It's insane

Death And Gaming (03:54:21.525)
I would 100 % say so.

Captain Coach (03:54:22.116)
I was actually talking to Pick and Roll the other day and I think Rogue is harder than Hulk, but he was dumb and he plays like, know, dive magic and stuff. He said Hulk is harder than Rogue and I'm like, dude, I don't know. think Rogue is like legitimately the hardest character to play, hardest tank at least.

RauKnows (03:54:33.816)
inches.

Death And Gaming (03:54:38.025)
think like mechanically, like I've seen you do some crazy stuff on Hulk, Captain Coach, where like mechanically that stuff isn't easy to do. like Rogue really benefits from so much game sense of timing, ult tracking, and also being able to ability absorb isn't just about stealing an ability, it's stealing stats, and it's like when you steal those stats and when you steal the ability. Like if there's a Strange, I'm a lot of times grabbing him to block heals. Yeah. I...

Captain Coach (03:55:00.736)
I just use it when it's up. I just use it when it's up. It's pretty much, such a powerful cooldown just take your free fight win. I really don't...

Death And Gaming (03:55:08.704)
See I-

RauKnows (03:55:08.718)
What blew my mind with cringe of like, I steal Luna. That way I can go freeze the strange portal and stuff like that. it just like, what is going on?

Death And Gaming (03:55:14.953)
Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Mills (03:55:16.851)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:55:16.932)
Well, that's why I wanted it to be a shorter cooldown. You could use it more for that instead of just like, okay, I need to like...

Death And Gaming (03:55:23.979)
You'd have to remove some of the other stuff it does too then. Like the stat stealing. Yeah. Because like, I legitimately, there's a game I showed where like, I grabbed a Luna, stole her icicle, froze the cloak and dagger who was close to her ult so that way my team could kill her, and then turn back onto the Luna. It's just like, if you have the game sense to track that stuff and see yourself in that situation, like, you can do so much with the hero, but like most people I think are going to go into each fight being like, well I mashed all my buttons and then I got destroyed and, you know,

Coach Mills (03:55:25.735)
Yeah, the hard CC it does and the stats, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:55:38.714)
Hahaha

Death And Gaming (03:55:54.055)
Like every take from Reddit is always the same whenever they're talking about their mains. Like, we need more buffs, we need all this stuff. I'm like, no guys, like, trust me, they are fine. Just because they're not broken doesn't mean they need buffs. Like, if you play them really well and you have high game sense, like, Rogue is so much fun. think, you know, I think she's one of the most fun heroes in the game, honestly.

RauKnows (03:55:57.274)
Boo head scan.

Coach Mills (03:56:11.571)
You

Captain Coach (03:56:11.894)
Anyway, there's nothing more I'd rather be doing on Friday night than spending four hours with the boys. Talk about some Marvel rivals.

Death And Gaming (03:56:19.677)
Yeah. I could keep going too. I'm not gonna lie. Like, yeah.

Coach Mills (03:56:21.023)
But yeah, Captain Coach, can, where, yeah, yeah, Captain Coach, where can people find you besides on every support main's like YouTube channel? Just like, well, I'm not, but okay.

RauKnows (03:56:23.128)
Yeah, sorry for rounding us back up.

Captain Coach (03:56:25.208)
Yeah.

Captain Coach (03:56:29.636)
Yeah, I'm a lot of people's most viewed video Now I'm a reformed streamer over on YouTube at at captain coach I don't even know what my my Twitter is. I don't even know it's it's like captain coach underscore MR. I think

Death And Gaming (03:56:29.802)
Yeah.

RauKnows (03:56:31.63)
Ha

Coach Mills (03:56:40.735)
But yeah, let us know down below if you like this format, if you want to see it again. Let us know if you agree, disagree. Of course, our takes are 100 % correct, so there's nothing to disagree about. thank you guys for coming by. I hope you enjoyed the video, and we will see you next time. I will say, Rao, you're...

Captain Coach (03:56:54.148)
Yeah, thanks again guys, seriously.