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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
I just have to set the stage here because Scott comes into the podcast studio, coffee and two little baggies of cookies.
Then he proceeds to open the cookies and put them straight on the table.
No plate.
And now he's eating these little cookies that I thought were for our children when they came to the office.
Why would you think that?
I assumed they were a children's snack
So anyway, if you hear crunching, it's Scott eating.
They're there's soft cookies.
A handful of soft cookies.
So if you hear
Lip smacking.
Yeah.
What did you say?
I don't know.
I'm cold, okay.
Our office, the heat's not working today, and so once again I'm complaining about the cold because it's very chilly in here today.
This morning was what minus
20.
Which is minus four Fahrenheit.
Yeah, so it's a bit much.
It's a bit cold today.
Scott's eating cookies, no plate.
Okay.
I did not want to add anything extra into the studio.
What was I supposed to do?
I'm a hungry boy, first of all.
Can you not call yourself a boy?
Why?
Like a hungry little boy.
Does it make you feel weird to be married to a hungry boy
I cannot with you.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn.
We are so glad that you are here.
As always, let's start the show with a question from Scott.
I'm in a mood right now.
I know.
Scott's in a mood and I'm a little nervous about it.
It's because the cold.
It's cause we're freezing.
So our adrenaline's pumping to keep us like Maybe that's why.
I feel alive today.
Versus other days it's so warm in here that I feel like I'm just gonna hibernate and
Well you know what it is?
You know, people take cold baths to like get their energy flowing and all this.
We're essentially living in a cold bath.
So whatever the benefits of a cold bath is, that's what we're living every single day
So that's why you feel so much energy.
I thought that whole thing was disproven, no?
Were they lying to us about it?
Oh I see what you did there.
That was a terrible segue.
Today's episode is online
And I feel like Jess is the perfect person to talk on this side.
Okay.
Zimmer down.
Okay.
Getting back into it.
Today's episode is on lying.
I won't make any comments now, but we should really get it.
Jess, take this seriously, please.
I was still thinking about your calling before.
Just as a perfect.
Why did we originally choose this topic?
I can't even remember now why were people asking you about this?
This is a really common question that people ask me.
Vote lying and I feel like it's because law kids do lie.
Yep.
And that's actually developmentally appropriate and normal
But it I feel like it causes a lot of panic in parents.
Like as soon as their kids start lying, they're like, am I raising a sociopath?
Like, why is my child lying so much?
So that's why we wanted to just
kinda get into it and and really answer some questions to help parents understand lying better.
Okay, so let's just start off with the term lying.
How should parents, first of all, understand or think about the term lying versus, I don't know, like is there another label for it if they're
quote unquote lying, but it's because that's a part of their stages of development.
Is it still the same thing?
Because I feel like we have this term lying, and kids obviously will lie.
That's just a part of
them growing up and testing boundaries.
But it seems like we use that term, but that could mean that, I don't know, some politician is lying to us or a family member has lied to us like an adult versus when a child Why don't we start here?
There's different kinds of lies.
So I I don't despise the word lying, but I do think that there needs to be more of an understanding as to the different types.
So let's start with one type of lying.
quote unquote, which is their child is lost in imagination and they have a really hard time differentiating between what they imagined or wished for to happen or thought maybe could have happened
in what actually happened.
So for example, your child comes home from school and they're like, today at school there was a tiger and the tiger was roaring and all the kids were scared.
And you're listening, you're like, there's no way there was a tiger in your class that was roaring and all the kids were scared, right?
But your child might say that and you might be like, Well, you're lying.
That's not true.
That didn't happen today.
Well, what's actually happening in that scenario is very common is that your child is having a hard time differentiating between imagination or what they wished for or what they were scared of that could have potentially happened and what actually happened in reality.
And that's very common because that is true for children.
Like they do have a difficult time differentiating between their daydreams and reality when they're reflecting back on what happened.
And as your child gets older and again kind of reaches that five to seven, five to nine shift, you might see less of those type of quote-unquote lies that are rooted in imagination.
The second type of lie a child will say is a lie that is your more traditional type of lie.
So this is a lie to get them out of trouble or because they did something that they weren't supposed to do.
And that type of lie actually takes a lot of skill.
And I don't think we give kids enough credit.
Because when a child is finally able to lie like they ate a cookie and they weren't supposed to, it means that they're able to hold multiple truths at the same time in their head.
And what this means is they can think
I ate the cookie and I know I ate the cookie.
And I don't want my mom to know that I ate the cookie because she's gonna get me in trouble.
So
I'm actually gonna tell her I didn't eat the cookie so that I don't get in trouble.
Like that's actually a lot of brain work for a child to do.
And if your child is doing that,
Congratulations, your child's reached a new developmental milestone.
And they're gonna try that out a little bit just to see what happens.
And so again, that's a kind of lie that we kind of expect.
And it usually starts mm-hmm like three to four around that age.
And I remember our daughter specifically doing that.
Remember the time she was juicing the chocolate.
She was not supposed to eat this chocolate Easter egg.
And then she did still eat the chocolate Easter egg, but she licked it instead of eating it
So she's like, no, I didn't eat it.
Meanwhile, there's chocolate like dripping off of her face.
So mommy, I didn't eat it.
I'm like, okay, well what I'm seeing is chocolate dripping off your face
And she's like, Well I was juicing it.
AK she was licking it, turning it into juice.
It was nasty.
Again, in that situation you might think, my child's lying to me, and they are, and I'm sure we'll talk about ways to help them, but you want to also recognize that this is a skill that means that they're holding multiple truths in their mind at the same time, which is actually
Great.
So we just want to help them know that they can come to us with the truth.
So those are I would say the two main kinds of lies that we see in our kids.
There might be some other types of lies that you might notice
But you do want to ask yourself, where is this coming from?
And that will help you understand your child a little bit more.
Right.
I feel like in theory.
That all sounds great, but then when you actually have that happening to you directly.
There's kind of that I don't know, a feeling of betrayal almost that your child is lying to you and
You provide everything for them, so why would they ever feel the need to lie to you, right?
So how do you make sure you navigate that well as a parent?
So you don't break trust.
Because I f I could foresee you saying, depending on how you handle it
could cause your child to lie to you more or less, depending on how the situation is handled.
So it seems that what we want to do is make sure we're not breaking the trust with them and that they actually eventually will
come to you with the truth when it's developmentally appropriate.
But I know with our with our daughters, I've been annoyed if they've lied to me and I know distinctly, hey, this is not the truth.
Yeah, I feel like for you it's a bigger trigger than for me.
For sure.
I clearly remember when our oldest started lying and I think I didn't like pass this information on to you right away.
And I do remember when she would lie to you or tell you something that was not true, you would get quite angry right away with her.
And what I was gonna say is a tip, and then that's why I was thinking about that, is like the worst thing that you could do when a child lies to you is get angry at them and call them a liar.
It's just not a productive response because now A, you're getting angry at your child, so that leads to fear, which leads to more lying.
B, you're labeling them a liar, so now it's like
Okay, well I guess I'm a liar.
Meanwhile, let's say it was an imagination lie.
They still haven't differentiated in their head if that actually happened or not, right?
They haven't even found that truth themselves
And if it's a lie because they don't want to get in trouble, well now they're getting in trouble.
So they're gonna be more likely to lie.
So we do want to avoid things like yelling at kids for lying, punishing them for lying, and calling them liars.
Now
this is like the most classic jest thing I've ever said, but we want to get curious about why they're lying.
Mmm.
No kidding.
Yeah.
Surprise of the century.
Somehow get curious is the response to everything
And that doesn't necessarily mean, I just want to clarify this because I had this a few times recently, getting curious does not necessarily mean you're asking your kid, why are you lying to me right now?
I think when I say get curious, parents often think, oh, that means I have to start asking my kid a whole bunch of questions.
Well, if you ask a three year old, why are you lying to me?
They're like, I wasn't lying.
And then you're gonna be like, yeah, you were.
There was no tiger in your class.
And then the three-year-old's gonna be like, no, I wasn't, there was a tiger, and now you're in a power circle.
So the better question would be to ask yourself
Why do I think my child would say this?
And what need might this be serving?
I tell Sarah on our truth first about a time when our daughter lied to us about having breakfast.
And I had said, have you had breakfast?
And she said, no.
And then I looked at the table and I saw her bowl of cereal was empty.
And I was like
Yeah, you did have breakfast.
And then she hammered down on the lie.
She was like, No, I didn't eat breakfast.
And in my head, I was like, Okay, you're clearly lying to me.
Like, look, there's an empty bowl of cereal
Why would you do that?
And I felt like I wanted to get angry at her and and yell at her and be like, Girl, you you clearly breakfast stop lying to me.
But I had to get curious and so
I thought to myself, I wonder why she would lie to me about eating breakfast.
And the more I thought about it, then I was like, oh, you know what?
We were planning to go to Tim Hortons for breakfast, but I think you had set out a cereal bowl for her.
And she probably thinks that she's not gonna get Tim Hortons if she already had breakfast
So I said to her, I'm like, what are you hoping that we're gonna do this morning?
And she's like, Well, I really want to get whatever it was from Tim like a bagel from Tim Hortons.
And
I was like, ah, okay, so do you really want to get a bagel?
And that's why you told mommy that you didn't eat your cereal?
And then she goes, like her big eyes, yeah.
Well I really wanna have that and I really just daddy just gave me cereal and I just ate it and then I forgot that we were supposed to go to Tim Hortons and I like I
still really want my bagel.
And so in that situation I got curious and I thought about like how is this lie serving her and I found out the answer.
And then we could talk it through and be like, next time, you can still have your bagel at Tim Hortons, but you have to tell me the truth first when I ask you if you had breakfast.
And then we had a whole conversation about that
So that's like one example of how you could get curious without necessarily like demanding your child tell you what happened.
Well I've even noticed, because you briefly mentioned the five to seven shift, uh I have
even noticed in our four year old who is getting closer to five how at the beginning of the school year, there was a lot more of those stories.
Yeah.
Imagination-based lies versus it seems like we can trust more of what she says now is actually the truth
So I find that interesting that she's able to, I don't know, it seems like something's clicked in her mind that telling the truth doesn't necessarily always mean
that I won't get the outcome I'm looking for versus that seemed to be what the lying was kind of about was I'm looking for a certain outcome to the situation and therefore I'll tell the story that gives that best outcome
Yeah, so that's another type of lie, I guess I didn't cover is like a type of lie to gain control over a situation.
Right.
So it might not necessarily be out of
fear but more so out of well I want to control what happens next.
So if I lie about this, if I lie about having breakfast, I know I'll still get my my second breakfast at importance, right?
So there's a piece of control
And again, that's huge.
Like that's incredible that our children can think of all of these things in their little brains.
And about the five to seven shift, like you'll only see that, I think, when it comes to lying
if you are not yelling at them for lying and you're not using fear-based punishments and all of that stuff, right?
Uh it's not just gonna naturally change.
Can we get into that?
So the developmental role of lying?
Because you've kind of briefly touched on that a little bit.
And I was just wondering, at what age do you think we start seeing lying happening?
When do they start moving away from that?
And then is there a point at which, hey, this is slightly concerning and we need like a bit more help on this situation?
Yes.
So well you first of all your child has to be speaking before they can really be lying.
I think I start to see it really in preschoolers that age, so two and a half, like closer to three, maybe to five
is really like a key age for quote unquote lying, especially those imagination lies we see a lot more of, and some of those fear-based and control-based lies
Like, no, I didn't eat the cookie.
We see more lying in children.
I mean, this is anecdotal based on my own practice, but I see more lying in children who are afraid of their parents.
So if you're using a fear-based d discipline, like you're yelling at your kids or spanking them, sending them away from you, you're gonna see more lying because they're trying to avoid that happening.
So again, that's how that type of discipline can backfire you on you a little bit because now your child's scared of you.
So they're not gonna tell you that they broke the lamp or whatever because well they know what your reaction's gonna be.
So I will say there's a developmental piece, but there is a piece that we do need to account for the way that we parent them.
And that's why not every
child makes that shift at five to seven.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
Well, I think as a kid, just based on how I grew up, I was quite deceptive because I was finding ways to get away from punishment.
Yeah, it's interesting to me because I grew up and my parents like honesty was always a value.
And I remember so clearly being young
And like maybe having this impulse to lie, but my parents always being like, you know, in our home we value honesty, like you can always come to us with the truth.
So I never really felt this like deep need
to lie to my parents.
And I feel like that's kind of stayed with me my whole life.
It's like I've never been one to be like, I want to lie and and lying has always been a hard one for me to understand.
And so when I saw our kids lying for the first time, we'd be like, What?
Like we value truth telling in this house.
Like why are you doing this?
So it was really helpful for me to understand that there is a developmental appropriateness to lying and that that will stop.
if we create that safe space.
Now children like you who maybe were afraid of their parents' reaction or didn't have that connected relationship where you felt like you could be truthful.
it makes sense that you would be more deceptive and as a way to like get your needs met and also to avoid punishment.
Okay, so when do you think a parent should be
You're saying like around preschool age, specifically when they're able to start talking and that's when you essentially start seeing
that they can lie.
They have the ability to lie.
At this point, I'm mostly wondering when should a parent be concerned about the lying?
Because
You've mentioned to me that you get DMs about or even I think we've had friends come to us saying, My child is lying.
They've like
told me this thing and it looks like they're incredibly serious about it, as though it's the truth, but I know for a fact they know it's a lie.
So
Is my child a sociopath?
Are they able to just lie to me straight in the face and feel no remorse for anything that they've just said to me?
So I'm less worried about your child being a sociopath and what I am more worried about is the disconnection in your relationship
classic, I know.
So get curious and tune into the relationship, I feel like, is every single podcast episode.
But I am more worried about the relationship, especially as your kids hitting that like four still.
I'm not super worried.
It's very typical.
But as we're heading into the th the five, six, seven, eight, nine age and your child is intentionally lying to you, like for example, you know they broke something and they're looking you straight in the eyes and be like, Daddy, I didn't break it.
And you're like
I know for a fact you did.
That's telling me that we're maybe missing something in the the relationship, that connection piece.
And not always.
It could be something else.
That doesn't feel very fair, cause I could still see our almost eight-year-old lying to us about breaking something.
Like, maybe not anymore.
But I could still see it and I think we have a great relationship with her.
She's past that five to seven shift.
So she's at that point where she knows that she has to be honest with us.
We're not gonna get upset with her, but it's still an embarrassment piece or something like that.
Right.
So there's multiple pieces to go back to what I was saying, the lying out of fear.
I think we do need to be mindful of that because I do see that a lot.
Where parents they tend to gravitate more to yelling at their kids and getting angry and they've called them liars, you know, and and I don't not even
There's no shame to parents because the first time our child started lying, we did the same thing.
Like we kind of just like went into panic mode, right?
Yeah.
So now they're at that five to seven shift and they're f
fearful of their parents' response to whatever they did.
That's one reason why you might still see the line.
The second one might be their own internalized shame, right?
And I think that's what you're talking about with our daughter
especially sensitive kids, but all kids like our oldest is not highly sensitive, but like all children have a sense of shame when they do something wrong and sometimes they need varying levels of time in order to feel
like they can come forward.
So I think sometimes too one of the issues that we have as parents is like we want them to tell us the truth like instantly.
Like what happened?
Tell me.
Tell me exactly what happened.
But maybe they haven't processed it in their own head yet.
What's happened?
They haven't thought it all through.
And then they look like deer in the headlight and then they're like, I don't know, I didn't do it
So I think that's another reason that kids can lie is like that sense of shame or embarrassment that they might feel and maybe they're unsure as to how you're gonna respond.
Like our oldest, she knows that we're not gonna
yell and scream at her, but she might know that we would be disappointed or frustrated.
And even that can feel very, very tricky, right?
Some kids it might just take time and their original thing they might tell you is a lie, but if you give them a little bit of time, they might just come to you with the truth.
I've noticed that in a lot of kids I've worked with, some of the coaching I've done with parents is like if you know that they lied to you, so let's say they broke
the TV and they said they didn't do it and you know like no one else would have broken the TV.
Give it some space.
Don't call them a liar automatically.
Give them some time and then come back and ask them
again in a calm and quiet moment and you'll almost always see that now that their brains maybe not quite in fight or flight as much, you can have a conversation with them.
So sometimes just asking them again a little bit later can be helpful
Mm-hmm.
So there's the fear, the lies that happen because they're afraid of the parent.
There's lies that happen because of their own shame.
And then I think that there's lies that happen in this five to seven age because they are worried they won't get what they want.
So for example, our child lied.
I guess she just omitted the truth to us when we were out with friends.
Later she told me that she threw up that night because she wasn't feeling good
But she said she didn't tell me that she threw up that night because she didn't want to stop hanging out with her friend.
So she did end up telling me the truth about what happened that night, but that was weeks later and she felt a lot of shame about it.
She's like, I just I really wasn't feeling good.
I didn't want to tell you I threw up because I knew you would say that I couldn't keep hanging out with my friend and I wanted to hang out with her.
So sometimes lies happen, not because our child's like bad or manipulative
but because they're trying to do the thing that they want to do.
So I hope that helps kind of explain.
Like I don't think every single lie a child does is rooted in fear of their parents.
I think that there's multiple reasons, but I do think the fear of the parents is one that we need to a ask ourselves.
if our child is constantly lying.
I see.
That makes sense.
I just wanted to clarify that because it kind of sounded like you're saying everything comes back to the relationship you have with your child.
And although true
We're still humans and we have human feelings and emotions, right?
So then I think you could have the greatest relationship in the world with your parent.
and still lie by omission or deceive them for several other reasons.
Yes.
Yeah, I think that's completely fair.
Lie to protect someone else from something too, right?
Like
I don't think it's just because you have a terrible relationship.
Yeah, I think that's fair.
Another thing that I've been thinking about recently is just because we had
the holiday season recently.
I feel like there's this contradiction where like Santa, Tooth Fairy, or whatever, different things.
Somehow we as parents are allowed to tell our kids these things because there's magic or whatever
this good feeling that comes along with them.
But I just I see that as kind of a contradiction.
I feel like you've been wrestling with that over the last few years.
Yeah
It doesn't seem very fair if I am allowed to tell my children these things that are blatant lies, but then the expectations in return.
They be truthful.
They have to be a hundred percent truthful one hundred percent of the time.
Yeah.
I don't know.
How do you make sense of that contradiction?
I feel like I
think Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the other thing, the Easter bunny.
They can be fun in imagination land.
And I know that people disagree with us here, but for me I'm like, hey, if you wanna
connect with your child through imagination and have them feel like a tooth fairy is coming into the room to take their tooth and write them a little note and make it fun and make it imagination
That's great.
But as soon as your child starts asking questions, I think if you want to create a culture of honesty in your home, I don't understand why we go so deep into lying to our children to convince them that it's real, to make that magical
Because I think it can be magical for kids just because it's imagination.
So for example, I've recently told our children that their toothbrushes are magical wands that turn them into princesses.
And of course they don't actually turn them into princesses and the kids know that.
Like they're watching themselves in the mirror as they brush their teeth.
But because it's imagination, they love it and they
go right along with it.
So now they're thrilled.
They're asking me to brush their teeth every night because the magical wand that they brush their teeth with turns them into a princess.
and then they get to go to sleep in their princess beds and it's the best thing they've ever done.
If they started asking me questions like, mommy, am I really turning into a real life
princess and they start pushing back, I'm not gonna be like, yeah, you're actually a princess.
You know what I mean?
Like I feel like have fun with it and imagination, but also there is a point of honesty
I feel like I've heard you talking about that though.
And I've heard you say, let's use our imaginations.
Your toothbrushes are magic wands.
Like so you're literally telling them this is using their imagination.
Yeah.
And I would say the same thing about the tooth fairy.
Like let's imagine that tonight that a magical tooth fairy is gonna come into your room and take your tooth and
floated away, I wonder where the Tooth Fairy would go and we could make up a whole world and it would be so fun and they would love to pretend that we're the Tooth Fairy and they would love to imagine that we float into their room and take their tooth and it goes to a magical cloud in the sky.
You know what I mean?
Like I don't think it has to be done in a l in a lie.
I think because children are ruled by imagination and play, like you can just have fun with it and still do it, but not telling them like
Hey, this is real.
An actual fairy you know what I mean?
I just feel like there's a balance.
So I don't think don't do it, but I think you can do it without lying.
Yeah.
Does that make sense
Hey friends, so at pickup last week, our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan and he's
To our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So
Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unfortunate.
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There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff like tickling that goes too far and even the difference between a secret and a surprise
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So check the course out at nurturedfirst.
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And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
Yep.
And this again goes back to
my final question, which will be on why I'm so maybe not strict, but very much against lying.
We'll go to that after.
Uh okay, so we're talking about imagination and
lying and I just feel like often, especially with our I don't know, with her oldest, she doesn't really do it so much anymore, but with our middle child.
At the beginning of the year, she was, let's say, deliberately lying to us about situations that were happening at school.
But I think part of that is just because at that age you have this amazing creative brain.
Like imagination and reality are so intertwined with one another that
it maybe even feels real for her.
And I think we often will default to punishing or
getting angry, whatever, because they're lying to us about something that happened at school.
Like I think she talked about one time one of the kids in her class ran into the parking lot and all the teachers had to go out and get the child to bring her back and
And we check in with the teacher, the teacher's like, no, that didn't happen.
Yeah.
And like it sounded to me like what actually happened was just someone wasn't listening in class, and she doesn't love it when kids don't listen to the teacher in class.
So but she made up this whole imaginative s like a long story to discuss it.
So I don't know, at what point do you go from thinking s like these imaginative stories are kind of adorable
'Cause I feel like often with her, if you just let her talk, she comes up with the most adorable stories.
Even her dreams are about unicorns and she hates waking up because she's dreaming about unicorns.
And going from like that's adorable that you've come up with
this whole thing too, okay, we need to talk about this lying and you're not being truthful with us and we need to work on that.
Yeah, I think it's definitely a balance because especially with our very creative children, like I think
for example, the daughter you're referring to is highly, highly creative.
And I feel like her brain is just constantly spitting with these ideas and these stories.
And I remember as a kid I had the same thing and I'm
still like that.
Like I'm still constantly thinking of stories and ideas and as a kid sometimes it would get me into trouble because I would say a story of something that I think I convinced myself of was true.
And my parents would be like, Oh that's not true, Jess, that never happened.
I'd be like, well
Wait, what?
I thought it did h did I dream it?
Like I genuinely remember them saying that and me being so confused.
Like I actually thought that did happen.
And I think that's the same thing with our daughter.
And so
Some things that we can do with like helping them know what reality is, right?
And be like, oh, that's a really cool story.
If you know for sure for a fact like it did not happen, right
Right.
Well I found with her, even though she's four.
The story, especially that one where the child ran into the parking lot and a whole bunch of teachers had to go out and catch her.
Yeah.
That sounded very very real to me
So we had to confirm with the teacher because it sounded so real.
And there's sometimes that you will have to confirm with the teacher, right?
I think with her specifically, we had multiple instances where we're like, we should probably just check in and make sure that didn't happen
or just try and understand what actually happened.
So there is a piece that if you have a young child, like it is okay to just check in and and make sure.
And then if it isn't real, maybe wondering with your child where that
comes from because in that scenario when we got to the root of it she's just upset because there was a kid not listening in her class.
So that made sense, right?
And she made up this whole story.
Does it make sense?
I don't know.
Like it's still hard for me to see the
The connection.
Yeah, like I kind of get it a little bit, but also in the same sense that's a very out there story to tell us about someone who just wasn't really listening.
In my head, and maybe this is just me overanalyzing it
But in my head when there's this like this big grandiose story and at the root of it is like this kid's not listening or there's like something small at the root of it, they're just trying to show you how
big actually that actually felt for them, right?
I think it was a big deal for her to go into JK or whatever and have some like if kids weren't listening because she just
didn't have that before and maybe wasn't used to it and I think wanted to express to us like how that felt for her and that it started out in truth.
Like I feel like it started out like
This child is running away.
Okay, that was true.
But then the rest of it got built on and built on and built on because as she's telling the story to her, it's just getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
And so I think if we can as parents we can acknowledge what might be true in the story.
It's like, wow, that was a big story.
Okay, so what I'm hearing is someone wasn't listening.
Do I have that right?
You know, and so bring it back to like the basic of the story and see if you have that right or not.
And what I would always suggest to parents is if you know what's true, just name that
So don't try and I I think a lot of times we try and catch kids in the lie, right?
Like we try and get them to tell us the truth.
Same with like when our daughter had the chocolate dripping down her face.
I know for a fact that she was eating the chocolate.
Clearly it's dripping off her face, right?
So the first thing we want to do is just name what's true
Don't waste your time trying to go back and forth getting them to tell you the truth because they're just getting more and more confused.
Name what you know is true and then work from there.
And if you don't necessarily know what's true,
Either, okay, I know that this wasn't true.
It's a story, you know, name what you think might be the root of the story, or just be like, yeah, wow, that's a fascinating story about your day today
You know, and then sometimes what I'll try and do is bring them back to reality by asking them a question that I know they can give me a truthful answer
Yeah.
Like who was your teacher today?
And then they tell you their normal teacher.
Oh, okay.
And who was the special student today?
And then they tell you that.
Just to get their brain back into truth-telling mode and out of imagination mode
Do you think there are any unexpected like creative gifts that we as parents should be
Not necessarily helping foster when it comes to lying, but I think with our middle daughter, I don't know.
I just even our oldest, she did the same thing at that age.
How can we make sure that
the creative or imaginative aspects of that remain and we don't crush that out of them while we're also trying to name the truth.
Yeah, stop them from being dishonest with us.
I think there is a lot of value in being creative.
So I don't want to that to be removed from their abilities.
I don't want them to all of a sudden not be able to be creative if we're trying to say, no, you have to be honest with us.
You can't say things that aren't true.
Yeah.
So if it's a lie that's rooted in imagination, right?
So it's not like the I stole the cookie lie.
It's a lie that's like they don't know what's true or not.
I think you can name what you know is true and you can label the rest as story or wow, you really imagined a lot happened today.
Like you imagined a tiger was roaring in your class.
Let's draw it out.
Get them to draw it out.
And I I think
The main thing is, and it goes back to what I said at the beginning, if you call them a liar and label them a liar and get angry at them and say, you have to tell me the truth, then it might make them question themselves and and kind of crush that creativity out
But if we can just flip it, name what you know is true and help them find the truth and label the rest as an interesting imaginative story and allow them to still think of stories.
And I mean I think this is where like the best writers come from, right
when you're writing something that even if you're writing like a fiction novel, there's something that's true and then the rest is just your imagination that kind of takes over, right?
You build a whole story around it.
You build a whole story about around one thing that's true.
And so allow them to do that.
Get them to write if they're old enough to write.
Get them to journal, get them to make a play, get them to write it in a poem.
So still allow that creative outlet while focusing on being like in our family, we also make sure we tell the truth.
I have found that amazing with our oldest because over the holidays she wrote a whole bunch of different plays that I had to be involved in and
She had lines for me and scenes and she's setting up the scenes and then she's also been writing her own songs, which like the lyrics are surprisingly
pretty good for an seven, eight year old.
So that's the kind of thing that I don't want to be crushed out of, let's say our middle daughter who maybe does it a little more than she did.
Mm-hmm.
But I can tell there's just inherently this creativity that's involved and you can tell her brain can create these immersive worlds that
There's a positive aspect to that.
And then for me, demanding, not demanding, but like needing people to be honest, I just want to make sure, especially for myself, that I'm not, whatever, stopping that.
Part of it.
Yeah, I think just flipping it, focusing on what you already know is true, finding the truth, but then always still giving an outlet for the creativity.
I think we never want to stop giving our kids these creative outlets.
That's why when our oldest asked if she could have a tablet on the bus, they said, No, but you can have a journal and a pen.
You know?
And now
Plays have emerged and poems and songs and drawings and this and that.
So always just giving your children the these outlets to express the creativity and even things like the Tooth Fairy or Santa, like
Partner with your child in it.
Get them to imagine all these worlds.
Get them to like think about what they wish would happen.
Like it's magical.
What do you think the tooth fairy looks like and what do they do with the teeth
Gross.
Well, I remember when I found out the Tooth Fairy wasn't real is very early on, because I s stayed awake so that I could meet the Tooth Fairy and then surprise, surprise, it was my dad.
Pretty sure I scared the shit out of him the one night because it was very late and I w I was not gonna fall asleep until I met that tooth fairy.
And then my dad walks in to switch out, give me a a dollar or something
And I was like, gotcha.
And I think he my brother was in there too.
I think it freaked him right out.
But then I got to imagine, he's like, Well, now you know.
Like I'm working with the tooth fairy.
And I clearly knew at that point that my dad was the tooth fairy, but I got to visualize and I remember just always smirking to myself as a child because they would still pretend the tooth fairy would come
even though I knew it was my dad.
And I would imagine my dad coming into the room with like wings on and whatever.
And I always thought it was just like a silly visual and then I would laugh and
So it doesn't mean like the magic is gone just because your child knows it's you.
I think it can still be really cool and magical and then you don't break the trust.
I kind of want to close this off, but before we do
I want to go back into the question that I've been dying to ask.
So I grew up in a family where I would say
We were more deceptive.
We were trying to hide what was actually going on internally in the house.
We're even told to lie to family and child services when they came a couple times.
Because otherwise we'd be taken away and all that.
But now, I feel like even then I hate lying.
And when I find someone lying to me, it's like the most
I don't know.
With our kids, I'm able to deal with it, but I find with especially with adults, I'm very untrusting.
I feel like most people are deceptive.
whether they mean to be or not, but specifically the ones who are deceptive for personal gain.
It like enrages me.
So here's a question.
I don't think I've ever asked you this.
What was it like?
to be a child and be told to lie.
Well I mean the family and child services thing was the one time where I distinctly remember it, but I don't remember what I was feeling at that time.
More
I think I was more scared like they're telling us, we're gonna be taken away.
You're gonna be taken away.
So I was more terrified by that.
So then
I'm more inclined to be like, yeah, everything's perfect here.
And it was just kind of ingrained in us.
Don't tell anyone what's going on in the house.
And I think we did it so well that when we finally, like in our community
said, hey, this is actually what's going on, people were like, there's no way that's possible.
There's no way that is true because I guess we hit it so well.
I remember even when we were dating and coming into your home from a place that was very honest
And then now being brought into like the lies that your family had and being told I had to keep these secrets, which I'd never had to really keep a secret from anyone before
even from my own parents.
And I remember how conflicting that felt.
Right.
Like you wanna be honest, you want to talk about your experiences and you want to tell people these really hard things that you're going through
But then at the same time you're being told like you have to hide it and you can't tell anyone because if you do, it'll threaten the whole family system and like everything will break down.
And I feel like for you, even into our marriage, like the first few years, we still felt we had to hold up those lies that were a part of the family system.
And I think it was the most powerful thing you ever did when you
decided when that time happened that you weren't gonna do that anymore.
Right.
Well and I wonder maybe it's my desire for truth everywhere else.
is my way of like, I don't know, not making up for it, but just making sure that it exists everywhere else.
I think two things.
I think
when you first started being honest, that was the m one of the most healing things that ever happened to you.
Yeah.
And you started like I remember the first time you told a friend like what actually happened in your childhood
Like that was really a huge deal for you at the time.
Like I know I remember you specifically you're like, I'm gonna go out for coffee with him and I'm gonna tell him.
I'm gonna tell him.
And that was like the first time you had ever really told anyone the truth
Yeah.
So I feel like now you're the most honest person I know, but I feel like there's a piece of that that like the truth is very liberating for you.
Like Yeah
But would you not agree, though, that outside of my experiences from growing up, I'm very honest about everything.
Kind of to a fault at times, where I'm just I would prefer we just speak truthfully.
It's 'cause you don't have the people pleaser aspect.
You think that's all it is?
No, I think it's way more than that.
But I think that's the difference between you and I.
It's like, not that I am prone to lying, but I am more like
I'll try and keep the peace and I'll try and But you don't have that.
It's like the that whole thing we've talked about, I think, on other episodes.
I hate the shit sandwich because I don't I don't like someone telling me
I really like this about you.
This is what I'm actually thinking, but I do really like this thing other thing about you.
It's just tell me the thing that you don't like and let's just get on with it.
Whether or not it hurts my feelings is sort of like
I would rather just know and then we m find a way to move past it.
But I wonder if you're a little more resilient in terms of people hurting your feelings because it's like you've been so deeply hurt for so many years of your life that it just doesn't affect you the same way
The benefits of trauma.
The benefits of trauma, I feel like you're not quite so fragile.
But what I was gonna say about like in terms of dealing with other adults lying or even their kids lying
I feel like for you, because you grew up in a family that hid so much and probably had to like lie a lot of the time, w when you find out that someone's been lying to you, it automatically me puts everything in their character in question
Mm-hmm.
Because then you're like, well if you're lying to me about this one thing, what else are you lying to me about and now I can't trust you at all?
Honestly, the thing is some people are like that and they have proven
that everything they were saying was a lie.
So then you have enough of that.
Like I had that You have enough evidence of that.
I had all the evidence
Growing up.
And then I s have a few instances of those with other adults we've worked with or So it makes it very hard then to trust.
Yep.
And I think your lack of trust obviously comes from like not having that when you were a kid, but then also like
a lot of lies in your home and like not knowing what was true or not true.
So of course you're gonna have a hard time trusting adults to begin with.
And then I think the second you get like
there's not that honesty there, it pretty much breaks down like instantly.
And I think that's why in a way I think we have such good communication because well A, I feel like I'm a very honest person.
But B, I think you trust me because even if the truth sucks and I'm like, hey Scott, I totally messed this thing up or I'm so anxious.
I'm pretty sure I got fifteen
speeding tickets, which didn't actually happen, but I was worried about it.
Uh I'll just tell you.
Yeah.
And I think that that's why you you were able to trust me.
And
You are learning to trust other people too.
Yeah.
Um I was actually just having the same con this is funny because I feel like we didn't purposefully do this, but I was just having the same conversation.
with a buddy of mine recently.
Mm-hmm.
We were just talking about lying and that whole I don't that's funny actually.
Yeah.
I don't think I meant to have that conversation with him.
I don't think we meant this to get into like a deep life chat about trust, but it it makes sense.
No, but as I was putting together all of these qu questions related to a child lying, I just remember as a child having to lie and then a teacher with
one of my siblings was like, Mm, some of these things seem very odd and then we had family child services come out to us and then we were like literally directed to lie to them.
So I just all of this was just kind of coming up as I was
thinking of all these questions?
Like why is it that I come from a childhood of so much lying to
I feel like I am the most honest person you could find and it probably puts people off just because I am more direct about things.
Yeah, people aren't necessarily used to that.
They're used to a little more candy coating and a little more and I feel like that's what I have learned from you, especially in the last few years, is that that doesn't always help the situation, right?
Not that I was lying, but I think sometimes people pleasing can kind of teeter into that territory of being not fully truthful in order to keep the peace.
Right people are worried about
Which I mean is fair enough, but people are worried about others getting upset if you tell them the truth.
Yeah.
And you learn over time, at least I feel like this has been a real eye opener for me over the last few years
that honesty is just so much better.
Like it's better to just have an honest conversation and say, like, hey, I'm feeling such this way about something.
and then deal with it back and forth, then try and people please and the other person's people pleasing and then you get into this mess where no one's actually being fully truthful.
Anyway, that's like lying as an adult.
I I think it often comes in the form of people pleasing and pretending things are okay when it's not or pretending you're a certain way when you're with someone, but then that's not actually the truest version of yourself.
I feel like you know the cost and you know internally in your body how terrible it feels to do that because as a kid you had to pretend to be one way and and I think this is your way of never getting back in that scenario.
Yeah
And that's why you're such a an honest person and that's why sometimes your honesty gets you into not necessarily into trouble, but maybe hits someone the wrong way because people just aren't used to that.
Yeah, and I like to
I feel like for us, especially let's say building this business, we're trying to surround ourselves with people that aren't going to just be telling us something we want to hear.
We're trying to make sure we're working with honest people.
We're trying to be friends with
Honest people.
And and I don't want this to come across like you're mean, which you're not.
Like No, I just like honesty.
I don't know.
You're just honest.
Is that a mean thing
No, no, no.
But like I feel like it could be taken like, oh, Scott's always honest.
Does that mean he's always like telling people things that they he hates about them?
Like it's not that.
It's more like
I feel like, for example, if you're having a bad day and your friend texts you, how are you feeling?
I feel like you would just tell them straight up, like, this is what happened today.
Like there's no like, yeah, no, it's good, or like
Beating around the bushel wasn't the best.
Like you'd just be like, Yeah, today sucked because of X, Y, and Z.
Or whatever.
Like I just feel like and people sometimes like, Oh, I wasn't expecting you to actually answer that.
That's more what we're talking about than you just being like, I hate your sweater
Mike, that's not the type of honesty we're talking about.
Well, although you would probably say that to me if you didn't like my sweater.
Which by the way I do like my new sweater.
Is it lying to say no comment?
Here we go.
I was gonna ask you this and this is a perfect time.
The reality is if you buy something new and you ask what is your opinion on this, I will tell you whether or not I think it works.
Yeah.
And often you don't love the answer.
No.
Just saying.
Sometimes sometimes I have to tell Scott that I don't want his honest feedback.
Yeah.
Sometimes Jess has to tell me, give me the feedback that I want to hear in this moment.
Yeah
And I and then I'm that's what I'll say if I actually don't want to hear his honest opinion 'cause I've already made up my mind on something.
Anyway, we got deep
Yeah.
Anyways, I just wanted to end with that because as I was putting together these questions, like I said, I found it very interesting that the childhood that I came from and whatever, everything that I grew up with
I am very much, I don't know, I feel like the opposite of so next.
And then on top of that, just seeing our kids and wanting to make sure that they're honest while ensuring at the same time they are as creative as they can be.
Because I feel like creativity is one of the most important things in life.
Makes life enjoyable, being creative.
Yeah, and and I feel like we we didn't get into too many tips on how to deal with lying today.
Which is fine.
Like we could go over that in another episode maybe.
Um we also do cover that in the parenting little kids course.
Like I talk about lying and how to respond inside that course if people wanted more specifically on lying, 'cause I know I get a lot of questions on it.
Okay.
Sounds good.
All right, well, thanks for tuning in today and definitely let us know if you have any comments or questions.
I feel like we could go a whole other episode just on like the deeper trauma type stuff that happens with lying.
Sounds enthralling.
I'm sure.
People love to hear about your trauma.
No, just kidding.
But Oh, about my trauma?
No, no, no.
Not just your trauma.
All right.
We'll talk to you again next week.
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