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Derek visits with his former colleague Bruce Alton on mental frameworks and product development.
Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
And welcome back to Essential Dynamics season two. This may not matter to you, but it matters to us that we are starting a new year, and, delighted with the, response we've had from the first season. And, this year, we're gonna try a lot to do something new, and that is have a lot of guests. And, one of those guests that we're bringing in today is, mister Bruce Alton, who, was very sharp eared in listeners will remember from our first episode that, Derek Hudson gave a shout out to Bruce Alton who's told him you really should get a framework. Well, mister Alton, this is the framework, and it stars me.
Reed:And, I'm Reed McColm, your host, and I am sitting here with mister Derek Hudson, whose Essential Dynamics philosophy I have come to admire. Derek, how are you?
Derek:Hey. I'm doing great. It's great to be here on the inaugural episode of season two. Who would have thought we'd have a season two?
Reed:Well, I'm glad we do because, I need the money.
Derek:And we're here with Bruce Alton. Yes. Let me let me just tell you a little bit about Bruce and and the story. So
Reed:Yes, please.
Derek:I I was aware of Bruce years before we actually met because he was an an earlier he was a early tech entrepreneur in Edmonton. And then later on, we got to work together at MicroLine, and our offices were next to each other for, like, about five years. And, we just had a fantastic time working together. Bruce is the founder of a partners. I'm the founder of Unconstrained CFO, and, we're these small, small consulting ventures.
Derek:When I step back into Unconstrained CFO last spring, Bruce and I had a conversation, and Bruce said, you know, people don't know what's in your head and don't know why they would hire you. You need a framework. And, so I went went to work based based on that, and, that's how essential dynamics kind of unfolded. Bruce has always been a framework kind of guy. He's a he's a very conceptual guy, great thinkers.
Derek:He's, if I if I pick up his chosen words right, he's an adviser, an investor, a founder, an optimist, and a mentor. I'm not sure we have enough time for him to dispense all of his wisdom on us today, but, I'm pretty excited to have Bruce Alton on. Bruce, what, what what are you excited about today?
Bruce:Well, thanks for inviting me. This is, congratulations on season one and and starting season two. I'm sure this will be, second season of many, so that's that's great news. And I'm I'm, I am a big believer of of frameworks, and I, you know, when you and thank you, by by the way, for the the kind introduction. I guess I was actually, I always have been kind of a frameworks guy.
Bruce:I find that that they can be very powerful. And maybe that says I'm just, you know, some people might accuse me of being a bit anal, but I really you know, by using frameworks all the time, but I actually really do believe they can be very powerful in in many different aspects of life.
Derek:So so, Bruce, you your product opportunity mapping is one of your frameworks. That's something you've been working on recently. Have there been other things in the past that you've, you've used either formally or informally to help sort through
Bruce:things? Yeah. There really has. And, actually, I wanna give a shout out to you there because I don't know if you remember this, but you gave me a book, probably just after I started working at Microline called Getting Things Done by David Allen. Yeah.
Bruce:And, it's it was a a game changer for me just in the sense of how, I should manage my time and just be organized. So that was really a framework. It was probably one of the first framework that really clicked with me. I mean, frameworks have been around since the beginning of beginning of time or mental models. And I think that's one that just actually really had a positive impact on me is maybe the first one that really stuck.
Bruce:And even today, it was probably fifteen years later, I still use a lot of the concepts, you know, of that framework in in, in my own life today, and I've, you know, adapted it to my own personal circumstances. And I think the you know, as I think about this a bit more, and and I'll tell you a bit about product opportunity mapping, but it really kinda comes down to mental models. And, there's a great, website called Farnam Street, you know, ff.blog by Shane Parrish, who's a Canadian guy. And he's actually he's they're big believers of mental models and using them for your everyday decision making in business and in life. So they actually wrote two books just summarizing all the main mental models.
Bruce:And I as I so I bought the first one and I go through it and it's just, you know, it's it's just like common sense stuff, but I think it does two things. One, it does it is serves as a bit of a guide to help you make decisions, just a framework. So you it kind of accelerates the process. You don't have to think through all the fundamentals. You could use these things.
Bruce:They're not gonna help they're not gonna make the decision for you, but they help you think about how you're gonna make decision and maybe think it through differently. And then the second thing I find is really helpful is just eliminating a lot of the noise. And I think with with the central dynamics, with, product opportunity mapping, with getting things done, I've told you about my ikigai framework I've used for in terms of my own life. We should talk about that because I think there's some interesting parallels to essential dynamics. They just like, you can go online and get all this information about all these different things, and it's just noise.
Bruce:Right? So how can you actually filter through that noise? So I really find mental models and frameworks have been incredibly helpful for me. And I you know, we always use them, but now I just get a bit more focused on using frameworks. And I think it's really helped me in just my life and, you know, my personal life, professional life, and and all all whole bunch of different areas.
Derek:Hey. Thanks. There's a there's a lot there. First of all, getting things done, do you still think about next actions for projects?
Bruce:Yeah. Pretty much. I think I've kind of internalized it. And I think part of it, with for that one in particular was actually just getting things down on paper so they're out of your head. And if you can free up all that overhead in your head, you know, it just allows you to think about the important thing.
Bruce:So that's probably the most important thing I got out of it. But, yeah, when I think about, okay, what do I gotta do today? Next action's often often.
Derek:No. That's interesting. So second point, Shane Shane Parrish in Farnham Street. I was talking with Brynn last week, and we're talking about his podcasting business. And I asked him, you know, where are you gonna be in six months?
Derek:Because, you know, his business is growing. And then he asked me the same question about the podcast. He says, where do you see the podcast going? And I said, season three is when I'm just a guest on other people's podcasts, and, and Shane Parrish invites me to be on his podcast.
Bruce:Yeah. That would be that would be awesome.
Derek:That might be season ten.
Bruce:Yeah. Well, no. Go for it, man. Season three sounds good to me.
Derek:So, yeah, one of the things I like about the the mental model concept, like you say, is it makes you think of things that you wouldn't think about because I I'm pretty intuitive, and I see a problem and then I know the solution. And it's better to step back and say, okay. So what are the pieces here that we need to consider? And that usually makes me think more deeply than I'm in I'm inclined to do.
Bruce:And and so the second piece of that, I would agree with that. And, also, I find that it's very helpful to actually use these mental model of frameworks to go back to first principles. Because I think we all build in certain types of biases in our thinking. Like, we're just comfortable in how we do things, and we don't think there might be a different way. So if you kind of go back to first principles using a framework, you can evaluate a problem and or opportunity in a very different way.
Bruce:And it's actually we can get into this a bit, but I think it's that's actually a fundamental piece of my product opportunity mapping framework is to go back to first principles to get rid of those biases of how people do things today because people are very resistant to change. And so how do you get them out of that box? And one way of doing that is is using a first principles approach, which effectively does require is a framework in itself, but it's also probably fundamental to any to many different types of frameworks. So I think it's the same for essential dynamics as well.
Derek:Sure. So, help us understand, you know, an example of getting down to first principles.
Bruce:Well, I can maybe I'll relate this to, to the IKIGAI sort of concept. It's that Sure. I when I worked at Microline, I left there and I worked for another company as a chief operating officer of a company that was very different from from technology world. It's very traditional real estate, oil, gas, private equity. And I was there for for ten years, and I kinda decided that I wanted to get back into the technology world.
Bruce:But it was a real fundamental decision for me. Like, it was a big change, and I had so many opportunities in the business. I had some opportunities outside, and I just decided I needed to go back to first principles personally to say really what's important to me. So I came across this framework called the ikigai, and it's it's a Japanese term that, is roughly translates to the kind of the, you know, the meaning of life for, you know, what's kind of lifelong happiness sort of thing. And I actually got exposed to Ray Mazzicka, one of the founders of BioWare, was actually he gave a TED talk talking about this.
Bruce:So I googled it and I became quite fascinated by it. And so basically, the icky guy is four circles. Think of it. You're writing on a piece of paper. You got four circles.
Bruce:First one is, what are you passionate about? Like, what really drives you and you're really interested in? The second circle is, what are you good at? Like, you know, what's good in your DNA that you're just really good at doing something? I think we all have different strengths in that area.
Bruce:The third area is what's there a demand for for this thing that you're you're looking at? Do people in the world want it? And then the fourth piece, which is really important is, is there will people actually pay you for it? And so we often get this thing, hey, you know, Derek, follow your passions, read, follow your passions, and just move in that direction. But, you know, if you really actually wanna have this as a key part of your life, if you could actually get people to pay for that, it's you don't have a job anymore.
Bruce:Like, you do something that you love, you're good at, people want, and they're actually paying you for it. Like, if you can get the intersection of those four circles, that's your ikigai. And so I feel that with product opportunity mapping, and I'll get into it, like, that's really actually close to my personal ikigai. But, really, what that forced me to do is actually go back to first principles of what's important to me and, you know, why what's why why what I'm good at and what I'm passionate about. And then if I could actually do the two other things and find something that people want and people pay for it, I don't even go to work every day.
Bruce:I just I love what I do. And so I think that was just a very valuable exercise to examine it. And I had a you know, after being in a job for ten years, I had to make a big decision. So I found that really helpful.
Reed:I'm fascinated by that, Bruce. That's interesting. Partly, I'm fascinated because, the icky guy was my nickname through adolescence. But, I
Bruce:It wasn't I c k y g u y. Yeah. I Yeah.
Reed:I k
Bruce:I g a I.
Reed:And I've I've never appreciated it until now.
Derek:You didn't know it was Japanese.
Reed:Yeah. I did in the game. Yeah. I was. And, book's
Bruce:been written on it, so there's lots of information out there.
Derek:I'll have
Reed:to I'll have to learn. But I have a question. What if your job isn't what if your job is not geared towards personal growth? What if your job is not something you want you what if you've separated your personal, achievements or or goals from your work? What what if the work is just to to pay the bills?
Bruce:Yeah. Well, that's fine. I mean, you know, it's it's that's totally fine. I guess it's just it's if you can find something that people are willing your job is something you're passionate about and good at, that's even better. Right?
Bruce:And I I think, you know, realistically, for me to do what I'm doing now, I had to achieve a bit of financial flexibility in my life. You know, I couldn't no no one's gonna pay me to do what I'm doing now. It took me a while to build it up. It's like, you know, any entrepreneur starting a business.
Derek:So Of course.
Bruce:It's just
Reed:Of course.
Bruce:You're not gonna it is that's if you can get it when you're 20 coming out of school or whatever, that's fantastic. But I think it does take a while as we get to know ourselves, as we really understand our strengths, our strengths that what I thought I was strong at thirty years ago or even fifteen years ago, worked with Derek at Microline probably were not my strengths, so I know they weren't. And then other ones I've been able to amplify in my life and get better. So I think it's just, you know, it's like any of these things, it's a bit of a philosophy, and I think it's, you know and and the interesting thing I found after, you know, understanding the central dynamics is the Ikigai is the destination. Right?
Bruce:Like, it kinda gives you a goal. Like, if I can get to that point, it's it's a good target. So it kinda forces you to think through what is that target. But the essential dynamics piece is more there's the the path. You know, the pathway is there.
Bruce:It's kind of like, how are you gonna get there? And so I find with, you know, product opportunity mapping is something that I really wanted to do, and I'm thinking, well, people can pay me to do this. This is fantastic. But how I get there or how I'm getting there, I'm not quite there yet, is actually has to do with that path. So I see all these issues that come up.
Bruce:They'd either move me towards my ikigai or away from my ikigai or whatever your goal happens to be. So I think it's it's well suited for setting the target destination, but maybe, you know, it's it's not it it it there's probably maybe Essential Dynamics is better to help you kinda get there along the way.
Reed:Can you describe for us what product, product I don't know. Can you tell me what that is? Because I am slow, and I really wasn't listening to you the first time.
Bruce:Well, I haven't explained it yet, so you you weren't, listening.
Derek:That's right.
Reed:So Please please explain it.
Bruce:Opportunity mapping. Is that what you wanna hear about?
Reed:I wanna hear what is it?
Bruce:Okay. So product opportunity mapping is a framework that allows companies to identify, evaluate, and compare new product opportunities. It's really that that simple. And it came out of the fact that for I'm a born and raised Edmontonian. I have a business degree.
Bruce:I'm nontechnical, but I've always been at the intersection of business and technology. And in all my jobs, there's probably kinda two interesting things or at least I find interesting about my career. One is that I was, well, I was at I was always responsible for new product developments, business development, revenue generation for the companies that I was involved in. Second thing is when I joined a company so I was involved. I started one of the first Internet development companies or cofounder of, Internet development company back in the nineties, '1 of the first in the province.
Bruce:Involved a couple of finance venture capital businesses. I was involved, of course, with Microline as the VP marketing and business development. And then for ten years in the in the real estate oil and gas industry. And then now today as an angel investor and a consultant, I had zero experience in the jobs that I had before zero experience in the industries in the jobs that I was hired for. And so I had zero experience in the Internet or even doing a startup.
Bruce:I had zero experience in MEMS manufacturing. I had a micro line. I had zero experience in, real estate and oil and gas and hotels, yet I was able to I had a kind of a senior level position. So that kinda gave me that fresh, perspective. But all through that whole process, I developed this mental model about how products should be developed.
Bruce:And it's very difficult because if you actually look at the stats for new product development success rates, they're very low. I mean, the failure rate's sixty, seventy, 80, 90 percent of products fail or don't meet the expectations set out for them. So I really felt there's kind of a better way. And then in 02/2019, I I had this idea. I said, you know, I gotta get it down on paper.
Bruce:And so I did that, and I set a goal for myself to talk to a hundred people, which I did. And just to validate the concepts going through, and that led to some paid engagements, kind of things I was doing anyway, and that just it kind of evolved from there, and it keeps evolving over time. So I spent about half my time today as an angel investor. So as Derek said, I'm interested in artificial intelligence and machine learning technologies and not because I'm really interested in the technologies. They just represent growth.
Bruce:So the Internet back in the nineties, MEMS manufacturing, Microline, AI, machine learning today, they're all growing very quickly. Growth covers up a lot of mistakes. So I said about half my time in getting involved in with startups. And you think about a startup, like, they if they don't have a product, that company does not exist. Right?
Bruce:A startup equals a product and and vice versa. But then I discovered that well large, well established businesses that are profitable, you know, growing, they're big. When they try to develop a product that's different from their core offering, that's when they have trouble. And that's where I found this framework is it's been really, really useful. So my kind of sweet spot, target audience are companies that may be, you know, $1,020,000,000 dollars in revenue already.
Bruce:They're successful. They've got a really forward thinking CEO who's still involved in in the business, and they've got some resources. They wanna do something different, and they wanna build up some, you know, new product development. And, really, what the result is through product opportunity mapping, it gives them the opportunity to identify, evaluate, compare product opportunities. But, really, what it's about is building corporate resilience and and wealth creation in the business.
Bruce:So kind of my thesis is that, you know, if you don't have a product, as a start up, you don't exist. But as a large company or any business, if you don't have a pipeline of new products under development, eventually, you're gonna be marginalized into mediocrity. Eventually, someone's gonna steal your customers. Someone's gonna come up with a better product. You will just either go out of business or you'll be mediocre and someone will buy you up.
Bruce:That goes for any business out there today. So my premise is that if you can become good at developing new products, one, you'll grow your revenue streams. Two, you'll diversify your revenue streams. And that's what I'm focused on, revenue in different areas. And if you can do that profitably, you will strengthen your balance sheet.
Bruce:Just by definition, you'll strengthen your balance sheet. And with a stronger balance sheet, you will be more resilient as a business, guaranteed. And and you will create wealth or whatever you're creating for your your stakeholders, you know, for your employees, everything else. You'll give them opportunities to grow, make more money, or whatever it is. So I I really believe the skill sets of developing new products for any company are absolutely fundamental and key to wealth creation.
Bruce:So that's kind of at a high level, but I real feel very strongly about that. And we need to get companies need to get better at it because they're frankly not very good at it as demonstrated by the high failure rates.
Reed:Right. I I find that fascinating, especially because as a youth, I when I was just starting out, I invested in, in New Coke, DeLoreans, and, you know, I I was very good at that sort of thing. And here I am doing a podcast about it now.
Bruce:Hey, Derek.
Reed:Your friend is great.
Derek:Yeah. So so, Bruce, you know, when you explained product opportunity mapping that way, I the first question I asked myself is, why can't we just do this for the economy of the province of Alberta?
Bruce:Yeah. Good good good question. I actually you know, thinking about the the province, I I actually if you talk to on your podcast, if you talk to a lot of, technology companies, CEOs of technology companies, one of the things I've discovered is is that product management is actually a really, really tough skill set to hire for. And there it's really, really hard. And it just kinda goes back.
Bruce:Like, I don't try to deal with technology companies because they're developing new products every day for new markets, so they kinda they know what they're doing. I focused on businesses that are kind of developing different products from their from their core. But I've discovered over and over again, the ability to develop new products is really, really hard, and it's a real challenge to find product managers for. And so I kinda wonder why that why is that in our province, like, in Alberta right now? And when, Derek, you and I were at Microline, we go to Ottawa, and you'd have this tremendous start up community developing products there.
Bruce:Like, we we have a great university. They have a great university. They you know, we've got smart people. They've got smart people. We're going after the same industry.
Bruce:Like, what what's going on? And I think that one of the key things here in Alberta is that the the our business DNA is predominantly focused on selling commodities. It's actually not selling products per se. When you sell a commodity, you're a price taker. The world tells you what the price is, and the world's gonna tell you how much oil it's gonna buy in trees or lumber or whatever else.
Bruce:And unlike, say, Ottawa, where you might have a university professor who spins out and he links up with a guy who was at Nortel or JDS Uniphase who started a company together, product guy, technology guy. And they actually have the skill sets to create the create these wonderful products. And so here, we don't have a lot of those people in the business community that have that product development expertise. They're used to selling commodities. Right?
Bruce:So I think it's actually been a big problem here in in Alberta just in the sense of, like, we don't have as much uptake. Or up until recently, we haven't had as much uptake in being really good product developers, as opposed to other provinces. I know I didn't answer your question for you, but it did it made me think of that.
Derek:Bruce Bruce, that's fantastic. And and I was I would have answered it the same way is that if you think about developing a product, what you have to do is you have to say, I have an I have a hypothesis about what someone will pay me for, and I'm gonna do a lot of work upfront, and then I'm gonna put it in front of them and see if they buy it. And, when you know that people eat and you grow grain, this is a question of raising the grain and getting it to market. If you if you know that people need fuel, you extract the fuel, you you refine it, and you get it to market.
Bruce:And and no matter what you do, the world someone else determines what the price is. So you have very limited ability to to control the the price by adding value like you could with a product.
Derek:So so, Bruce, I don't know if you know a lot about Reid, but Reid is, I think I think at his core, he's a he's a writer. He's a he's a playwright. I think that's probably the the number. Of all the stuff you do in the theatrical world, writing plays is probably your core. Is that right, Reid?
Reed:Yes. It's it's what I yes. I I would consider myself a writer. Well, first a hobo and then a writer. But,
Derek:so So so the thing about writing is you make this big investment in something that, you hope someone likes.
Reed:It's it's really excruciating at times. I was thinking about that while Bruce was talking. It's, I develop a product or a play. I work on it very hard. I revise it many times to get it so that it can be produced, and then I wait.
Reed:Mhmm. And I wait, and somebody produces it. And maybe. You know? It's always a maybe.
Reed:I I audition constantly. I did that in television. I do that I did that in film. You're auditioning for people, and they all have something to say. Gee, wouldn't it be great if there was, you know, a water buffalo ballet?
Reed:And, and you go, yeah. Yeah. Because you think they might buy it. And, so I'm constantly prostituting my work, you know, in a sense. Yeah.
Bruce:I guess Do you think, Reid, like, I I I believe like, my definition this is this is actually a really interesting point because a lot of people think products, they think of, you know, I'm making a smartphone or something. I'm selling that as a product. My my definition of products is actually, very broad, and it's that anything that can generate revenue, externally, for your company. So for you, I mean, in generating revenues, you know, selling a play in a in a sense. But it can be a physical product.
Bruce:It can be a virtual product. It can be a play. It could be a service. It could be accounting services. It could be a number of other things.
Bruce:And so the framework that I developed is, yeah, I thought I had to be be really show that I was really smart, and I have this I have, like, 60 different exercises and case studies and all these things. It's a six step process, and it's all very complex. But the one really critical thing that I realized going through the process, there's always four fundamental questions that if you answer them, ask and answer them, they're not gonna guarantee success, but they're actually gonna reduce the chances of failure. So I kinda wonder if I asked you the four questions, would this be a way to evaluate a play that you're writing? Could you do some upfront work to increase the chances of the success of the play if we thought of your play as a product?
Derek:Hey. Let's do it. Let's do it.
Bruce:What are
Reed:the four questions?
Bruce:Okay. So the four questions are, what is the problem you're trying to solve, and is it worthwhile solving? So that's question number one. And so in your case, you know, I think that kinda goes to plot. You know, it's like the problem that I have as a theater goer is I you know, do I wanna be entertained?
Bruce:Do I wanna have deeper philosophical thoughts? Do I want an escape? You know, all those things. So what problem are you solving for me if the viewer if I'm your your customer? The second question is related to the customer.
Bruce:Who's your customer and where do they exist? Do you want to is your customer, you know, is it I don't know how you classify your customers, but is it a demographic? You know, 19 30 one. Is it, you know, that age group? Is it old people like like us?
Bruce:I'm sorry. We're we're old. Is it Canadians? Is it American? Is it, you know, multi language?
Bruce:All those things. So who is the customer and where do they exist? And you can dig down into that, of course, and, you know, for techno traditional product companies, we go down that rabbit hole. The third question is, who are you competing against, both directly and indirectly? So if your place premiering at The Citadel, you know, you're gonna be competing against what's going on at the Varscona, another play, and and everything else, but the that's the direct competition.
Bruce:So you're Pepsi and there's Coke, direct competitors. The other type of competition is actually a bit more nuanced, and it's it's the indirect competition. So your indirect competition is TV, books, you know, all those other ways for people to consume their time at 8PM on on any given night that your play might might be on. So how if you can understand your competition, it you have to understand it in order to supplant your competition, basically, is the question there. So that's the third question.
Bruce:And then the fourth question to ask is, how and why are you gonna win? So what is Reed's secret sauce? What are your sources of competitive advantage? Is it humor? Is it by your writing style?
Bruce:I I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm just thinking off the top of my head here. So I think in so I find that in in, for any product, anything that you're doing, if you can say what problem you're trying to solve, who's your customer, and where do they exist, who are you competing against, and then how and why are you gonna win. If you go through that exercise and, actually, the one of the pieces of my framework is coming up with this product opportunity summary.
Bruce:It's kinda like the elevator test that was popularized by, Jeffrey Moore in Crossing the Chasm, which is kind of a seminal book for listeners who are in the in the, technology field. I know Derek's familiar with it. And if you can put that on a on two pages, kind of, right, summarize in two pages, and then you come up with a thousand different ideas or 20 different ideas. If you use the same format, same template, framework for all your product ideas, and it just kind of forces you to distill it down the essence of the idea, then you can send it to Brynn and to Derek and to me, and we can give you some feedback. And then that allows you to kinda compare these ideas and say, you know what?
Bruce:This one's a good one here. I gotta work on this one here. I wanna push this one off to the side. And then as another part of my framework is, and this may be helpful as well, is that I always kinda end off by saying, Reed, you gotta make one of four decisions, you know, on this thing. It's kind of the accountability piece.
Bruce:So the one the four decisions are go. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna write this play. I'm gonna keep going on it. The second one is no go, and I'm just gonna rip it up, get rid of it.
Bruce:It's not gonna take up any more mental overhead in my life. I'm done with it. Third one is park. Great idea, but maybe not right. You know, a a a, play about a pandemic in 02/2018 or, you know, before COVID or maybe after COVID.
Bruce:Maybe maybe you've gotta park that for a while. And then the third fourth one is is pivot. Great idea, but I'm gonna move it into a different direction. So, again, simple framework that allows you just to, you know, like, what do I do? This kinda gives you the opportunity to do a more objective assessment as you go through that.
Bruce:So from that perspective, is your are your plays a product?
Reed:I am so convinced now of success that, I'm not sure I can even stand it. Bruce, I can tell this conversation and your insights into, into product development and also how it relates to the central dynamics. I can see that going on for, you know, some time. I hope you'll come back.
Derek:So so, this was fantastic. And I gotta tell you, like, you listeners, because you can't see this, Bruce has been thinking about this a lot. He's got a framework. He explains it really, really well. Reid's an artist who also is a businessperson in terms of his product, his plays.
Derek:He's taken notes on this.
Reed:Mhmm.
Derek:We also have Brynn here who's running a podcast business. He's taking notes on it. And, of course, Bruce and I each are run our own independent consulting businesses, and we're all thinking about this as well. I just wanna toss out another one. Anybody who ever applies for a job should also ask these questions.
Reed:Yeah.
Derek:You know, what's my employer's problem? Not I need a job, but my employer has a problem.
Bruce:That is so critical, and especially today, and given my involvement in, you know, in the AI space and and, artificial intelligence and what it's doing. Like, I if my kids would ever listen to me, and I don't think they ever do, but if they did, I tell them, do not apply for a job, like, a job description that's there. You have to figure out in your position how to add value to the organization. So your point, what problem can you solve? Because AI is gonna change you know, it's even gonna actually automate playwriting, unfortunately, and and podcasts and being a CFO.
Bruce:Right? Like, it is gonna disrupt all these different positions. It's gonna happen much sooner than we think. But if you can figure out how to add value to an organization, even if your job, in quotation marks, disappears, if you can figure out how to add value by asking those questions, for sure, you're gonna be much more employable than those people who think they are an accountant or they are a playwright. Right?
Bruce:You know? Reed, you need to use your skills. You can entertain me through a play at The Citadel or in a podcast or on an iPad or through 40 characters at a time is through a series of tweets. Doesn't matter. We all, you know, kinda so the message there, we've gotta be adaptable, but that's that's probably another whole different podcast.
Derek:Okay. So it's agreed then. We're gonna have another podcast with mister Bruce Alton. Reid, back to you.
Reed:I am very excited to have that next podcast. I just I would like I I yeah. I can't tell you. We've been doing, what, 26 up. This is this is the opener for season two, and we're starting off with such a bang.
Reed:Thank you, Bruce Alton, for joining us. You've been far more influential in in one half hour than I have had in a whole year of talking to Derek. And, I I wanna thank Derek Hudson, our guru of in central dynamics and the philosophy that led us here. Derek, where can people reach you?
Derek:They can find me at derek hudson dot c a and Bruce
Bruce:w w w dot, excuse me, product dash mapping dot com.
Derek:Product dash mapping dot com. Don't forget the dash.
Reed:Yep. Good.
Derek:Okay. And I
Bruce:am always up for these conversations. I love talking about products. So if anyone wants to talk to me about products, I'm game.
Reed:Oh, man. It was great meeting you. I look forward to meeting you again and talking to you. For the time being, however, and for bring Griffiths in the studio. I'm Reid McCollum, and until our next episode, which is coming up soon, consider your quest.