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Apiary Chronicles is the podcast where the world of beekeeping comes alive. Hosted by Cal Hardage, this show explores the personal journeys, challenges, and triumphs of beekeepers from all walks of life. From backyard enthusiasts to commercial apiarists, each episode dives into the unique stories and invaluable insights that make beekeeping both an art and a science.
Discover tips on hive management, pollinator health, and honey production while learning about the dedication and passion behind each beekeeper’s journey. Whether you’re an experienced apiarist, a beginner, or just curious about the buzzing world of bees, Apiary Chronicles offers inspiration, education, and community.
Join us weekly as we celebrate the people and pollinators shaping a sustainable future, one hive at a time. Subscribe now and step into the world of Apiary Chronicles!
Speaker: On today's episode we
talk with Eugene Makovec, the
editor of the American Bee Journal.
You may have seen his name there.
He's a beekeeper with 30 years
of experience, and he usually
has about a dozen hives.
He's past president of the
Three Rivers Beekeepers, and
active in other local clubs.
He's a two time Missouri
beekeeper the year winner as well.
In 2015, Eugene spearheaded an effort to
deregulate the sell of honey in Missouri.
Allowing beekeepers to sell their
products through retail outlets without
benefit of a commercial kitchen.
On today's episode, we are going to talk
to Eugene about his journey with bees.
and then through his honey deregulation
journey in Missouri and what you can do.
Really great episode and we'll
get started with the Fast Five.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: First
question, what's your name?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Eugene Makovec.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: And
what's your apiary's name?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
I go by Sweet Harvest Honey.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236:
And where are you located?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234: I'm
in Foley, Missouri is the closest town.
It's about an hour Northwest of St.
Louis.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, okay.
And what year did you start with bees?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
I started in 1996, so I'm
getting into my 30th year.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236:
Yeah, you've been doing it a
little
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234: Yep.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: And how many
colonies do you routinely manage?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
bounce around.
I say, we, it's mostly me, but
my wife helps out with them too.
Bounce around a dozen or so range.
I got 11 right now.
I was out over the weekend and we got
some some days up 60s and even, I think
Close to 70 on Sunday, got out and just
kind of made sure everybody was everybody.
So all 11 of my colonies I sent
in the winter are still alive.
I just checked to make
sure that was the case.
So I'm doing well.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Well, very good.
Yeah, we've had really
nice weather this week.
Now, a couple of days in here
has been drizzly and not so nice.
Today is not so nice yet.
But we've had a couple days, it's,
I don't know if we hit 70 or just
got so close you could see it.
But I think we have a couple more
that's supposed to be really nice.
And then of course, they're talking
about cold weather next week.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah, we're supposed to be
getting some snowflakes today.
So it's still just rain
here at this point.
We've got a few cooler days now.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Yeah.
Cal: Welcome to Apiary Chronicles, where
we dive deep into the world of beekeeping
and the people who make it all happen.
I'm Cal Hardage your host
and fellow bee enthusiast.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Well, why
did you get started with bees, Eugene?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234: My
dad had bees when I was growing up and
I never had any interest back then.
And it was something we, I was on a dairy
farm up in Wisconsin and we had, dad had
10 kids and I think it was, it was all
about working sunup to sundown to try
and put food in our mouths and shirts
on our backs and the bees, I think, were
just something he kind of did on the side
and didn't really push it on any of us.
And I guess he thought, you know,
it's bad enough making us milk cows
twice a day and bale hay and all that.
Why make us deal with
stinging insects as well?
I don't know, but you know if you
ask him about it, I remember asking
him now and then about this or
that and he'd be happy to share.
I remember him telling me about
the queens and the workers and
and of course we ate honey all
the time and I knew why that was.
Better than sugar and things like that,
but other than that, it was just something
I thought was kind of cool, but didn't
really have interest until later on.
Dad had some, some health problems in
the, in the late 80s, early 90s, he
ended up having a kidney transplant.
and
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
of course, then, you know, he wasn't,
that wasn't about the mid 80s.
And wasn't as able to work with the bees.
You know, he bounced around
three or four hives or something.
And when Varroa came along, then that
kind of just finished it off for him.
And when he got out of bees, you
know, I used to, I was living down
here in Missouri, whenever I'd go up
there, I'd, Take some jars and bring
some, bring some money back with me.
And it wasn't the same buying
it from the grocery store.
So I called my dad one day and
started talking about stuff.
And, and he was kind of, kind of
happy that one of his 10 kids had
something, some interest in it.
And And so, and when I found out my
grandfather had actually been a beekeeper
too, I did, I had never known that,
that kind of sealed the deal for me.
So, I drove up in my with a friend
with my, my Ford Aerostar van and
picked up some equipment, including an
old an old galvanized 40s era Daydant
hand crank four frame extractor.
I
used that for a few years until it,
until it broke and I ended up having
to go to, go call Dana and upgrade
a stainless steel, but, but that's,
that's kind of how I got started.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: You know,
my dad had bees when I was little
which sparked my interest later
on when I got in high school.
I got my own hives and dad
only did it for a few years.
But we had a stainless steel Hand crank,
extractor, two or four frame, I forget.
He loaned it to someone between, we
moved after he had bees and then he got
out of bees, but we had the equipment.
And we moved out here where we dairied.
And, somewhere in that,
dad loaned it to someone.
And he can't remember who he loaned it to.
So,
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
You think that person would have
remembered who he borrowed it from.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: You, you thought
so because then when I got in high school
and got B's, I was like, where is that?
And dad's like, well,
I loaned it to someone.
I just don't know who.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah, you know, the neat thing about,
about me and my dad was, I was number
eight out of those 10 kids, so I never
really had a relationship with my dad.
Growing up.
And once I got into the bees and
every time I talked to my dad, of
course, he would bring up the bees
and, and we kind of, kind of got to
know each other a little bit better.
You know, we still didn't talk
about feelings and things like that.
We just don't do that in my
family, but but I got to know him
those last few years of his life.
And that was, that was
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236:
Oh, that's wonderful.
Yeah.
So when you decide to get into bees,
did you do it through packages,
through nukes, or complete hives?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
started out with a package, had
that, you know, post office delivery,
went and picked him up and, and, And
killed that first, that first queen.
Well, not the actual colonies made
it, but I killed that first queen.
And, and of course I didn't
know what I was doing.
I, I did take a workshop Jefferson
County beekeeper south of St.
Louis.
I took a workshop there and.
And I jumped in and I joined the
Eastern Missouri beekeepers because
they met a few blocks from my house.
I lived in Kirkwood in St.
Louis County and, and so I got
those and, and I managed to.
You know, I left some, some open, open
spots where I, when I had installed
them and didn't get back there to put
the frames in, of course they made a
mess of things and I had some stuff drop
out on the ground, killed my queen and
that kind of short circuited any chance
of a successful year for me, but did
manage to get them through the winter.
And then the next year, I think I
bought a couple of nukes the following
year and I expanded a little bit.
Years, but.
The third, third year probably
where I made enough money
to start selling a little.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah.
Did you, I assume you probably
started with some Italians.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah.
They were Italians at the time.
Yeah.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Yeah.
Did you go with the traditional
10 frame Lungstroth?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah.
Langstroth is what my dad had used
and I had some old boxes of his and,
and that's, that's what I went with.
And I found out that they weren't
entirely compatible with everything.
He built a lot of his own stuff.
He was even building his
own frames at one point.
That's just a difficult proposition,
you know, so I had various things
that was kind of mixed and matched.
And, you know, I think I still
have a couple of those old boxes
around that I'll use as to put.
Put around feeders and those sorts
of things, but none of them are
actually in service otherwise.
The main,
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: When you got
those first bees, was there anything
that surprised you about them?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
the biggest thing was just that, first
of all, that, that rush, you know, you,
you feel when you, you dump those bees
out of that package and you got all these
bees just swirling around in the area.
And of course, you know, as a new
beekeeper, you're all suited up and you
know, I got the full suit and everything
like that, but it's still just the idea
of all these things and insects around me.
And, and then the next thing was just
how docile they were for the most part.
You know, I go in and work them
and I even, you know, I had
all the gloves and everything.
On, but, but still the fact that I
could go through and, and move all
their furniture around and what, you
know, do all these things and, and they
just kind of went about their business.
Like, I wasn't even there that,
that really surprised me because
I just never expected that.
And of course, you know, you, like
most beekeepers, it didn't take
long before this, this was kind
of gave me my life new meaning.
Yes.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yes.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
It tends to take over your life.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: That it does.
It, it, it does, it'll, yeah.
I think you said earlier, it can eat
up as much time as you allow it to.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: With those
first hives and expanding, did you expand
your apiary by always bringing in bees?
Or did you start doing some
splits or raising your own
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234: I
did the first couple of times before I
kind of started to figure some things out.
And part of the difficulty was I
had, when I first started, I had
one hive of bees an hour from home.
I had a guy that I worked with
that I worked a half an hour from
home and he lived a half an hour
on the other side of that, and.
He said, you can put some bees in my yard.
And my, my wife, ex wife she
was not thrilled about the idea.
And.
So that, that, you know, I,
there was no chance of me
putting bees at home, but the,
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: oh yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
the second year in I met somebody,
I gave a talk at a garden club and
a woman came up to me and said, my
husband used to have bees back in
the fifties and we wouldn't mind.
She was an older, older lady.
We wouldn't, wouldn't mind
having some bees on our property.
So I went over there and they
had a Great piece of ground.
And so I, I kept some bees
there and then brought the other
ones home from farther away.
So by the third year I had them, I had
them all within a couple of miles of,
of home and that made it make things
easier, but, but yeah, I, I bought a
couple of nukes, I think that second year.
And then I bought a couple more nukes a
couple of years later when I, when they
all died and, you know, it, it took me,
I think it was about my third or fourth
year four colonies and all four of them
bit the dust over a winter, which is
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Devastating and, and I picked myself back
up and, and got back on that horse and,
and things, you know, things got better
and I, you know, you still have, you
have your good years and your bad years
and when you, when you have those good
years, you brag to everybody about it
and those years when they had occasional
year, I went a couple of years ago where
I lost half of my D's and, and I kind of
kept a low profile that spring, you know.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: I, I I think
it was winter of 21 that I had terrible
losses and that I, I was thinking,
well, maybe I want a few more bees
and I had terrible losses that year.
And, and since then I've just kept
a couple of hives out there, but,
you know, starting to get the itch
again to increase those numbers.
But yeah, it does take
the wind out of your
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah.
Generally speaking, I bounce
around 10 or 15 percent losses.
I do do pretty well.
For the most part I, and I, that
bad year, I mean, we had, we had
a couple of years where our, our
nectar flows have gone really late.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Typically over the years, by about 4th of
July, things are about done around here.
And we've, we went into about mid
August a couple of years ago and just
got in, got my, checks and treatments
on too late, I think, and they'd
had got too much of a foothold.
And so I lost some bees,
you know, early winter.
And so, yeah, that was hard,
but Things are better this year.
So we'll see.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Yeah, that's
always good news with your, your flow.
You're talking about, do you
have much of a fall flow?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
We usually do now.
I never did.
I'm living out in rural area now where
in Lincoln County, where I live now,
we usually get a good fall goldenrod
aster flow the last, we've got three
years in a row now where it's been too
dry in the summer and they just haven't
brought anything in from it, but that
was something I never got in Kirkwood.
Kirkwood, they pretty much.
For the most part, they would, they would
fill themselves back up in the fall.
Here, they do that.
And then some, most,
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: oh yeah.
That's some extra.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
not, not for the last couple of years.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: The last few
years, I say few because it's at least
three, it may be as many as five.
Our falls have been just,
we've just been so dry.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Where are you again?
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236:
Northeast Oklahoma,
so I'm probably six and
a half, seven hours from
you to the southwest.
Yeah, we've we've been really dry
and and not had much happen in
the fall for grazing or bees, so.
Now, in your journey, somewhere in
there, and you mentioned earlier,
you gave a talk at a garden club
early in your beekeeping career.
Did you start doing education
or speaking early in?
Did you get involved with your local club?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
You know, it was the, the, the first,
first opportunity I had for that, if
you can call it that, was my, my, I
have four kids and my, my third, three,
three, Three girls and then a boy.
My youngest daughter was in
first grade and said something
to her teacher at school And I
got a call asking to come talk
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
graders and scared to death out of him
You know, it scared me half to death.
I just wasn't I'm not that guy you
know, I was never never able to
stand up in front of people and talk
about anything and and I just, I
packed up some, I was a photographer.
I had a dark room.
I went down and printed some 11 by 14
prints of this and that, and took some
hive equipment and went up there and,
and gave a little talk and had the best
time of my life and, and the kids were
all following me outside and volunteer to
help me carry my things and continuing to
bounce questions off me and everything.
And so I started doing
some of those things and.
And then it wasn't long before somebody
asked me to talk at a garden club,
and I started doing those here and
there too, and, and some Kiwanis
clubs, and just barely, basically,
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
whatever kind of organization looking
for a lunchtime speaker for cheap.
And, and you know, some of my schools,
I never charged anything for those.
Some of the others I did.
Charging 50 bucks or
something and sell some honey.
And, but they were a lot of fun.
And then at one point I started,
I graduated to starting to talk
to beekeepers too, and that's,
that's a whole other level there.
You know, that's, it's, that's scarier
actually than talking to real people.
Beekeepers, they'll call you out if you
get something wrong, you know, or, or
at least, you know, they're thinking it.
You have to,
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Well, that
start talking to six and seven year olds
is a great start because I've gone to
schools and talked about beekeeping.
Yeah, they just love it
and they just eat it up.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
And the teachers too, they love having
people, anybody come in and talk
about something different so the kids
aren't just sleeping at their desks.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh yeah,
give them a little bit of a break and
stuff yeah.
I haven't, I haven't been hit up this
year, but I'm suspecting, my wife
teaches first grade, so I suspect I
may be doing this later in the spring.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah, it's fun.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Let's talk about
your management of your hives just a
little bit and your philosophy in there.
Are you a person that likes to
get in the hives every few days?
Do you, or are you hands off?
Or where on that continuum would
you describe your management?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
I'm kind of in the middle.
When in the springtime, I'm in
there trying to get in there
every 10 days at the most,
week to 10 days, just because things
things change so much in the spring.
And it depends on on the hive to on the
colony, what they're what they're doing.
But for the most part, I'm in there.
About that often during that kind of
April through early June till I kind of
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234: kind
of get getting pushing out of that swarm
season and they're in honey production.
I make sure I get over over that hump.
The summertime, I pretty
much leave them alone.
Get them in check if I have
to, but make sure they're queen
right and that sort of thing.
And then in the fall, just kind of
make sure they're ready into winter.
And then I leave them alone over winter,
of course, and, know, like now I went,
I went over the, over the weekend just
to check, check who's alive and, and
fed a couple of light ones, put a couple
of candy boards on and I'm waiting
now for a A stretch of warm weather.
If we get four or five days where they're
out in a butterfly in an area where
they're pretty well broken cluster,
then I'll go in there and, and check
every, check through everybody, make
sure I got laying queens, equalize food
supplies, get a little bit further in
probably before I equalize populations.
I do that generally by.
on the season, you know, depending on
how that spring is looking early, late or
whatever, I'll get in there at some point
and kind of equalize populations to, to,
to make sure nobody's getting out of hand
because it's, it's too early to make,
Too early to get queens to make splits.
And, you know, just kind of
rob the rich to help the poor.
You know, I tell people I'm kind of a
small L libertarian in real life, but
I'm very much the socialist in the VR.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: yeah, yeah.
Are you running double brood chambers?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
double deeps, yep, yep, 10 frame double
deeps, which, you know, they're heavy.
And there are some times when I'm
out there wishing I'd gone mediums
or, or 8 frame or something.
You know, my dad, my dad ran
double, ran deeps for everything.
And he was not a big guy.
He was about five, six, you know, I
don't know if he ever reached 150 pounds.
You know, he was not, not a big
guy, but he was strong as an ox.
He would, he would carry those
full deeps and, and I, I have.
situations where I'm out there and I'll
throw it, I'll throw a third deep on a
hive for swarm control, give them that
space, you know, I wind up with those.
And of course they come back later
and they fill the thing with,
with honey and that'll buckle
your knees carrying that thing
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: oh
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
across the yard.
It's, it's, it's a lot of weight.
I can't imagine why you do that.
Of course, my dad would also.
He would, when I'd go up to Wisconsin to
get honey, that's not why I went up there.
Well, in part it was, I guess.
I'd go up to see the family
and I'd go to get some honey.
He had, you know, he was
a retired dairy farmer.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: yes,
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
those milk cans, those 10 gallon
milk cans, he would fill
those things with honey.
He put them up at the top of the
stairs for some ungodly reason.
I, I can't, I can't imagine lugging
those things up there full of honey.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: oh
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
cream scoop and I'd scoop that
crystallized honey out and
put it in, put it in jars.
But yeah, he, he was a, he
was a strong, strong guy.
Wonder about, wonder about his
intelligence sometimes he does that stuff.
No, not really.
He was also very, very intelligent.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: yes, yeah.
Do you run shallows or
mediums for your honey supers?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Mediums.
Yeah.
I've always run the, run the mediums.
Just, there's not that much difference
between the mediums and the shallows.
You might as well go with the
mediums is the way I see it.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh yeah.
With your honey and harvesting
it, and then marketing, are
you selling all liquid honey?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah.
I don't, I don't do any comb honey.
I have done.
I, I, Toyed with the Ross rounds off
and on, but I was never good at it.
And, and, you know, that was a management,
that was just a, I guess a time
management thing among other things.
That was just kind of like, I, I,
when I'd run out of supers, like, Oh
yeah, I got these routes, Ross rounds.
I'll throw one of those on.
And of course that was like
toward the end of the honey flow.
So the nectar flow, so they wouldn't,
wouldn't work them properly.
You really got to crowd them and make them
go in those things to get them to work.
I know people like the comb honey.
That's just.
My laziness, I guess, I don't, I
don't have the time to deal with them.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: And
on the subject of comb, are
you running plastic foundation?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
I like my, for, for deeps, I like
my wax, my wired wax foundation
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
yes.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
an anachronism that a lot of
people think, why, who, who even
deals with this stuff anymore?
But the bees like it better, and I
like it better, and I know the, the,
the nice thing about the wax, about
the plastic is it, it lasts forever.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
you know, you can scrape that
stuff off, but it's just, and you
gotta You got to put new wax on it.
And, you know, I don't know.
I, and as far as buying the new stuff, if
I know you can get it where it's double
coated and they'll build on it better,
but still it seems like it's not as good.
And you know how bees will come,
they'll steal wax from here and there
where they need it and then later on
they just won't build on that spot.
And to me, buying plastic foundation and
then having to coat it with wax, that's
kind of like buying foundation twice.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234: For
a little guy like me, I can, I can, go out
in the shed and wire some frames and, you
know, put, put my take my phone out there
and put a podcast or something on and
listen to something while I'm doing it.
And it's a little bit of a,
you know, quiet time for me.
And I don't mind, mind doing that.
Now for honey supers, I got a lot
of those that are, are plastic.
They, they hold up better to the.
The extractor, I do have
some, some wax ones.
You just got to be careful
with them the first year or so.
So they kind of get, get tougher,
you know, and then they'll,
they'll spin out better
without being damaged.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: I
think that's very important.
I got, so when I got back into bees, I
decided to do a couple top bar hives,
long top bars, and I Went out there in
August, and I should have known better,
but I was checking the hive August July.
It was hot because I had, I checked
a couple frames and lost the comb
off of them, because I had just put
a starter strip on it, and they had
built down, and it was hot, and I, I
totally messed up those, those frames,
if you want to call them frames.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah, I, I had one, one
experiment with a top bar.
My, my wife thought it
would be neat to try.
And, and so, I, I built one out
there and I'm not a carpenter.
I'm not good at that kind
of thing, but, but I.
You know, I spent a lot more time
than I should have, than it should
have taken me, but I, I built a, built
a top bar hive and, you know, I put
the, the bars in there and I put the
little starters in there and, and my
problem was they, they didn't attach.
They didn't attach those combs on
the sides, but they attached them
to each other, like on the ends,
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
but not the other.
They were all attached and it was
so much trouble getting them out
without tearing, I just kind of left
them to their own devices and they
made it through the first winter.
They never, I think I had
about 30 frames in there.
They never got beyond about 10 or 12.
They made it through the first winter.
The second spring.
They swarm four times in the same, into
the same peach tree about 20 feet away.
Nobody stayed home to make honey and
they starved the next second winter.
So we turned it into an
herb, a little herb garden
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yes.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
a couple of years until
the bottom rotted out.
it was firewood.
So, you know, reuse, re re reuse
and recycle and all that stuff.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: My top
bar hives I glued some boards
together and eventually those
broke after I quit using them.
And I used them for feed
trials for goats for a while.
Let's change gears just a little bit
Eugene and go beyond the buzz and talk
about honey regulations or deregulations.
I know a few years ago in Missouri you
worked hard to get honey deregulated.
Can you tell us a little bit
about your journey there?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah.
I.
I mentioned that I lived in St.
Louis County in Kirkwood.
It's a pretty nice suburb outside of St.
Louis.
I was keeping bees and selling
honey there for about 15 years.
Sold through a couple of businesses.
local retailers.
And then after, after my divorce,
I, I went looking for a place where
I could get an acre or more ground.
And I had to move well outside of St.
Louis County to, to find
something affordable.
And I ended up out in Lincoln County.
I'm about an hour northwest of St.
Louis and in a rural area, closest town,
Foley, is, is Got a population of 89 now.
It's in a flood zone, so it's not
a very prosperous community, but
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
but I'm out basically in farm
country surrounded by it's, I'm in
a little development that was cut
out of farmland and we're surrounded
by corn and soybeans basically.
And the bees do pretty well out here.
And, and Started selling honey
in a local meat market out here.
My wife, my wife that I met a couple
of years after found me, found this
location out here and, and we were,
we had honey in there for about a
year and I got a call one day from a
Lincoln County inspector saying I just
I'm up here at Brown's meat market.
I just pulled your honey off the shelves.
Cause I don't have record of
you having an inspected kitchen.
Do you by chance have
an inspected kitchen?
And I said, what's an inspected kitchen?
Which pretty well answered your question.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Pretty well.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
And, And, I said, what's that all about?
And she said, well, you, you're
required, if you sell honey directly
to the consumer, you're fine.
But if you sell through a third
party, you're required to have A
commercial kitchen that's inspected
by the local health department.
And I said, what's the difference?
It's the same honey.
And she said, well, you
know, that's just the law.
And I said, well, and I, you know,
and, and the whole thing surprised me.
Number one, I'd never heard of this law.
Okay.
And number two, Lincoln County was
one of those areas where I thought
you want to get away from regulations.
You know, when I was
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Louis County, that's, you know, this
is one of those areas where you go.
If you, if your, your old fridge or
washing machine craps out on you,
you have drag it out in the yard and
use it for parts for a few years.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
tell people, one of the great things
about living where I do is I can pretty
much do what I want on my own property.
The downside is soaking my
neighbors, but that's one
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
you are, right,
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
those, trade offs, but, but
so, but I asked this, this
woman, her name was Stacy.
I said, I didn't know Lincoln
County had rules like this.
And she said, Oh no,
this isn't the County.
This is the state health department.
Coming down to us at the county
level and saying you need to start
enforcing our, our law on this.
So, so that was that.
And I, I said, well, can you tell me
what the law is so I can look it up?
And, and she said, ah, you know what?
I'm not really sure, but I'll
put you in touch with the state
health inspector works out of St.
Louis and her name was Virginia.
And, and so Virginia called me back and,
and explained this law better to me.
And, you know, she, she
explained that part of it.
And also.
And, you know, and I asked her, what's,
what's the difference in this honey?
And she said, well, if you sell direct,
that, that end user can, can look
you in the eye, she can judge you by
your appearance, which I thought, you
know, that's, you know, kind of weird,
but, but she said that person can
ask you questions about your product.
And I said, well, I do get questions
asked to me, both my direct
users and through the stores.
And they're never anything
about whether that honey is.
Safe to eat.
It's more things like, why is this honey
different color than what I had last fall?
Or why does it taste so much better
than what I buy in the grocery store and
in my favorite, do you
have this in a bigger size?
Can I, can I buy the gallon, a gallon
or something from you that, you know?
So it's never anything that I would,
you know, that, that they don't
trust the honey for any reason.
And another thing that, that another
requirement was that even if you're
selling direct to the consumer, you
have to have a statement on that label
that says this product has not been
inspected by the Missouri department
of health and senior services.
Now that takes a pretty big
chunk of real estate on your
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
especially on the smaller
sizes, and it's just.
Superfluous, you know, honey is a,
is a, an inherently safe product.
There's no reason to, to
imply that it is not that way.
And then the other, the other thing
was even if you are just selling direct
to consumer, if you're selling a lot
of honey, say at farmer's markets and
craft shows like that, and you reach a
threshold of 30, 000, which I was in no
danger of doing, but some people that
work, you know, the farmer's market
all year, I can see that happening.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
that threshold, then you need an
inspected kitchen regardless of, of
where you're, you know, even if you're
not selling through third party, which
again, I asked that question, what's
the difference between the 29, 031?
It's the same, you know, but you
know, well, that's just the law.
So now Virginia did offer,
she was very nice about it.
Not, not very understanding of
my position, but she was nice.
And she said.
I'd be happy to come to your local
beekeeping club and explain this law.
And, and I said, well, I just so happens
I'm president of my local beekeeping
club, Three Rivers Beekeepers, and
I'll put you in touch with programming
and we'll, we'll get you out here.
And, and then So, so we went
ahead and scheduled her for, I
think it was our, this was, this
was in August, I think of 2014.
We scheduled her for November.
And the, that was one, one of two
things I had going for me at the time.
The other was that I was, I was doing
the newsletter for the Missouri State
Beekeepers Association, which put
me on the board of that organization
and gave me a, a bully pulpit there
where I could, you know, you know,
rail about this to the membership,
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Right?
Yes.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234: but,
but I, I, I went to the local club and I,
you know, told my story and then, and I
also put something on the MSBA Facebook
group and, and our program, our state
programming director put Virginia on the
docket for the fall, the fall meeting,
the fall state meeting in October.
And so she came to the state meeting.
She was not real well received.
She, she had a PowerPoint
presentation, got about.
Three slides in and, and it just evolved
into a one long Q and A and, and a lot
of people asking the same questions
that I was, what's the difference
between this honey and that honey?
and and we spent a lot of time
trying to nail down just what an
inspected kitchen consisted of.
And she really couldn't.
answer the question definitively
because it turns out it varies
by your local authorities.
And so we kind of played a running
game of 20 questions where we
sort of narrowed some things down.
It's, it's got either three
or four stainless steel sinks.
You have to have a floor drain,
washable walls covered lights.
You have to have an attached bathroom.
Now, now this can be, it has to
be separate from your residence.
You can be attached to your residence.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
But it has to be separate and you can't
run, you can't run into the main part
of the house and use the bathroom.
You got to have a
bathroom attached to this.
And you have to have separate drainage
septic or sewer system as well
from your house.
If you, if you hire somebody to help you.
Extract honey.
Then you've got a, another
set of regulations.
You've got to comply with ADA, you
know, disability stuff and have a
wheelchair accessible area and, and,
you know, those sorts of things.
So, so we're talking some real
money, even if, you know, even if
you're not hiring somebody, they're,
Tens of thousands of
dollars to build this thing.
So, so, you know, this, this
was not not well received.
And, and I went home and I wrote
a couple of stories on this.
One was just kind of a news story
for the newsletter about, you
know, the, the conference and her
visit, her talk and everything.
And then I wrote a separate
editorial, just kind of.
tearing into the health
department about this.
But, but then I had a Oh, we had that.
We had that her schedule at the the, the,
local meeting and she didn't make it.
She didn't show up her
and turned out later.
Her, her daughter was, was home from
school for a couple of days and she forgot
about us and cut her daughter was sick.
And, but we had a retired
inspector that I found out about
the meeting and he came to see.
What she was going to talk about.
And when she didn't show, he got up and
said, Hey, I can, I can speak to this.
And, and that run actually better because.
Since he was retired, he could be
a little bit more candid with us.
And, and we kind of educated him.
And, and, and he said, I can tell you
one thing, you're not going to get
anywhere with the health department.
If you want to change something, you got
to go through the legislature to do it.
So we kind of, we kind of formed a
little committee there at the, at the
local level and sat down and tried
to talk about what we wanted to do
and figure out how to do something.
Somebody had the, had
the bright idea that.
Hey, we should send a letter to the state
health department and say, Hey, you're
just starting to enforce this thing.
Tell us how many people have been getting
sick from eating honey prior to this time?
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
You know, we kind of agreed they
probably wouldn't bother to respond to
us, but it was worth the effort, right?
You know, so we went ahead and did that.
And then I got an email from
Joe Graham, who was editor of
American Bee Journal at the time.
They, he, they advertised, they had
advertised in the, and the newsletter,
and so did so did bee culture, and
So they got a copy of that newsletter
every two months when it came out.
So Joe emailed me and he said, Hey, I
read your newsletter and I'd like to
get permission from you to, to publish,
to, to reprint this pair of articles.
And I said, Hey, that'd
be, that'd be great.
And he said, and also I've
attached some information on what
Illinois did to fix their law
when they ran into these problems.
And so that was, that was really helpful.
Illinois.
It's a completely different world from
Missouri, where beekeeping is concerned.
Missouri is like the wild west.
I keep bees, you mind your own
business and everybody's happy.
In Illinois, if you want to
be a beekeeper, you've got
to register with the state.
You've got to register your hives,
submit to inspection by by their,
their, the state apiary inspectors.
When, when they want to inspect them
once a year or something like that.
I'm not sure how that, how that program
works, but, but you've got to, you know,
you've got to be tied into all that.
And, and I understand the reason for it.
I mean, years ago, these programs
were largely a response to foul brood,
American foul brood, when that was
raging through, through beekeeping.
A lot of them that have
gone away, but some states.
Still, still do that.
Now, the upside for, for
Illinois is the state is also
very supportive of beekeepers.
Not only do they have
a top flight bee lab up there in
Champaign Urbana at the U of I, when you
Join a local Illinois beekeeping club.
They're actually a member of the
state beekeeping organization,
Illinois Illinois state beekeepers.
You go to an ISBA meeting, the ag
department is on the docket that
somebody, a representative from
the ag department gets up and
talks about the inspection program.
And these are how many hives we opened
and, and these are the diseases we're
tracking in these areas and whatnot.
So.
You know, they can be very helpful.
So when, when their health department
started cracking down on these dangerous
beekeepers, the ag department took up the
cause for them and they helped them in
the legislature and got the law changed.
Basically.
Pull honey completely away from the
health department, classify it as a raw
agricultural commodity, and say, you
guys can sell it whatever you want to.
The one stipulation is where we
had that 30, 000 limit in Missouri,
they had a 500 gallon limit.
There were, if you reached 500 gallons,
you needed that inspected kitchen.
Otherwise you didn't
have to worry about it.
So, so that gave, that gave me some
hope because Illinois is not one of
those states where you would expect
to be able to reduce regulations.
They're more of a, they're a
bigger, bigger government state
than, than, than Missouri is.
So I then I went and I contacted my old,
My old neighbor from, from Kirkwood in St.
Louis County, he'd been, in the, in
the state legislature, he'd been, well,
he was a city councilman when I, when
I first met him, I remember putting
up yard signs for him, but he did his
stint in the, in the state house and
then the state Senate, got term limited
out about the time I, then when I left
town, but I called him and told him my
story and said, you know, how would I
go about getting something done here?
And his first recommendation was,
well, get yourself a lobbyist.
And I said, well, we're not
going to get a lobbyist.
You don't have to have the, the
money or, or, or anything, you know?
And he said, well, here's
what you need to do.
What, here's what I would suggest.
Find someone on one of the ag
committees, either the house or the
Senate, explain your, issue and see
if they can introduce a bill for you.
And by the way, he said, I'm, I'm
friends with the Senate Ag Committee.
That's still there from when, when I
was there and I'll put you in, I'll,
or he said, give him a call, give
him a shout, tell him, you know, me.
And tell your, tell your problem to him.
And I tried calling this guy,
emailed, never got a response.
I found out pretty quickly, if
you're not in somebody's district,
they could not care less if you're.
You know, who, who you
are, what your problem is.
I didn't get anywhere with that.
I tried contacting my own legislator,
but this was this was November of 14,
an election year, and my state rep had
just got elected to the state Senate.
So she was between jobs.
She wasn't answering at
either, at either office.
So I was kind of, kind of stuck there.
Missouri Missouri
beekeepers board meeting.
We had a quarterly meeting that
was scheduled for mid January.
So I thought, okay, I'm gonna go there
and we'll talk about this and see what
we can do as I, and I brought it up
and, you know, said, we're, they're just
starting to crack down on, I've heard
from a couple of other counties too.
And some other people in Lincoln
County, you know, I think we should.
We should try and do something looking
to changing the law here kind of
nip this thing in the bud and, and
I actually got a little pushback.
I had one guy said, well, what if we
try doing this and we fail the health
department might just push back on us even
harder for, for daring to challenge them.
And, and then there was another guy who
said he was, he was a retired lobbyist.
He worked in, I think
the insurance industry.
And he said, well, it's already too
late this year to do anything anyway.
And I said, well, what do you mean
that the session just started?
I mean, this, this was mid
January legislative session.
Missouri runs first week
of January through mid May.
May 15th that year.
And I said, the session just started.
He said, yeah, but there's
so many bills pile up.
If you didn't have something pre filed in
December, good luck getting it out of the
pile and moving it forward at this point.
And so the, the board president said,
okay, we'll just table this for now.
We'll take it up again in the fall.
So, so I went home, understandably
discouraged and feeling all alone.
And.
And then I got a I got an email
a couple days later from a, a new
beekeeper in Lincoln County said, Hey,
I read, I read the state newsletter
and I happen to be friends with a guy.
Named Zach, who is Senator Riddle's,
the, our new state senator,
Senator Riddle's legislative aide.
You want me to put you in
touch, ? I said Absolutely.
So I talked to Zach and explained the
situation and he talked to Jeannie
Riddle and scheduled a meeting
for, I think it was early February
and first, first week of February.
And so, we sat down then and,
and talked to this and the
morning of my meeting with.
With Jeannie and Zach, the mail comes
and I have a response from the health
department and it basically says,
we looked and, and we have no record
of anybody in the state of Missouri
ever getting sick from eating honey.
So when I showed that to Jeannie
Riddle, she got a big smile on her
face that this is going to be helpful.
And so, so I talked to her.
About this whole, you know, I had
explained everything to Zach beforehand,
but I, you know, explained the issue
and she said, yeah, I think this is
something we can help you with and, and
I asked her about the, the idea that it
was too late and she looked at Zach and
she said, that bill that we that law
we passed for the concrete workers last
year, wasn't that introduced in March?
And, and he said, yeah, and that was a
lot more complicated than this one is.
I think we can get
something like this passed.
So, so, so then we basically from there
just kind of sat down and, and negotiated
over the, over the wording of the bill.
Honey at the, at the time, it
was, it was covered in what was
basically the jams and jellies law.
It applied to jams and jellies and, and,
And honey, it was basically written as an
exemption, kind of like how the cottage
food laws are written as an exemption
from the kitchen, as long as you only
sell to the consumer and you do everything
in your own kitchen and you have the
warning label and everything like that.
So we had no, really no
business being classified with.
with.
jams and jellies or any
of these other things.
I mean, the whole purpose of, of these
cottage, of these kitchen laws is that,
that you're, you're protecting people
from spoilage and, and food borne
diseases resulting primarily from bacteria
and bacteria doesn't live in honey.
So there's no reason for us to be
lumped in with these other things.
So, we basically, you
know, my, my thought was.
We'll pull honey out of this jams
and jellies law and write a new bill.
And she said, no, actually we
passed a cottage food law last year
that lumps in jams and jellies.
So we'll just pull that out of
this, this bill, make this the
honey bill and write the exemptions,
the further exemptions into this.
So from there, it was a matter
of negotiating between what I
thought beekeepers could live with.
And what they thought we could get past.
And, and then this, at this point, I'm
thinking the MSBA actually did me a
favor because I can speak now as one
person, you know, if you've ever tried
to do anything through a committee, it's
a nightmare, so it was just me there.
And whether, whether or
not I did everything right.
And I know I didn't, but,
but at least I spoke with.
One voice and we got something done.
But Jeannie said, you know, the kitchen,
you know, my, my, my goals and the goals
we have set at Three Rivers was get rid
of that kitchen, that was the biggest
deal, get rid of that, that ridiculous
warning label, and then I wanted to
also get rid of that upper threshold.
Cause I just think it's an arbitrary
number, you know, it's kind of
a way to stick it to the big guy
for no, no good reason, but But in
any case Jeannie said, yeah, the
kitchen thing, that's an easy sell.
The label I don't know, you know, keep in
mind that every change we make, it's, it's
going to complicate things more and reduce
our chances of moving smoothly through.
And, and I, I kind of
stood my ground on that.
I said, this, this, label, it's,
it's really an insult to us.
I mean, the whole premise of this is that.
We're dealing with an
inherently safe product.
And when you slap a label on there,
warning people that it's not inspected,
it sends, it sends the opposite message.
And especially if, if I'm an uneducated
consumer looking on a shelf and I got
two vials of honey and the one from
Missouri's got that little label on
it that it hasn't been inspected.
And the one from Illinois
doesn't say that.
I'm going to buy the Illinois one.
You know, the law is basically,
it's, It's basically picking
on our own state's beekeepers.
So anyway, she said, okay, how about
we strike the label language now, and
if that becomes a sticking point, it's
going to be the difference between
getting the bill passed or not.
We'll put it back in later.
I said, okay, that's fine.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234: And
then as far as that 30, 000 threshold,
Zach said, you know, you, we're never
going to pass anything that doesn't make a
distinction between regular guys like you
and the big corporate producers, whatever,
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: right, yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
but he said, the good news is the
cottage food law from last year,
that's got a 50, 000, 50, 000 limit.
So we can at least bump it.
From 30 to 50 without
anybody batting an eye.
And I said, okay, I can live with that.
But with all these questions, you
know, the, about the, the, the
possibility of pushback and things, I
asked the Senator, I said, so who do
you think would be opposed to this?
And she immediately came back and she
said, oh, the urban and suburban beekeeper
or the urban and suburban legislators.
And I said, well, she was, she was
surprised when I said, well, actually.
The majority of beekeepers in this state
are in those urban and suburban districts.
We're not just a
bunch of farmers out in the
country like, like it used to be.
So, So, that, that made
her feel better about it.
And then she came back to me
and, and, and said, now I need
to be able to demonstrate.
That this is something the
beekeepers of Missouri want.
It's not just some disgruntled guy in my
in my
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: right.
It's just not you.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
said, I'm on the board of the MSBA.
I can do that.
You know, and, and I was thinking
later, I hope I wasn't overly optimistic
about that, but I went back and I
sent an email to all the board members
and I said, Hey, as it turned out,
I heard back from my state senator.
She's on the AG committee.
She thinks we can get it passed this year.
If I run this language by
you, can we vote on it?
And the president said, yeah, absolutely.
We can do that.
So.
So Zach sent me the wording of the bill.
Oh, and I went back one more time
to him and I said, do me a favor.
If you will, everywhere where
this law uses the terms processing
and manufacturing, can you change
those to harvesting and bottling?
Cause I want to make it.
Completely clear.
We're not food processes here.
And he said, yeah, we can do that.
So he sent me that wording.
I ran it by the MSBA board,
unanimously voted to support it.
And and the bills were,
the bill was introduced.
Now the other The other side of it
then was Zach said, now you need
to find someone on the house side
to introduce an identical bill.
And I was thinking later, I wish they'd
have done that for me, but in any case
he, he, suggested go to, go to the, the
house ag chairman and ask him to do it.
And so I, of course, ran into the
same problem with him as I had
the, the, the, Senate ag chairman.
I wasn't in his district, so he didn't.
Didn't have any interest
in dealing with me.
So I went to my new, my brand
new state rep, who I took Jeannie
Riddle's old job on the house
side, explained the situation.
And he said, yeah, let me
talk to the ag chairman.
You know, they were both
in the, in the same party.
And and, and see, see what I can do.
And, and by the way, when I, when I first
talked to my old neighbor, that was his
other advice is he said, you want to
find a Republican to do this because
the Republicans run the show down there.
They, they,
Republicans have had strong
majorities in Missouri for
probably the last two decades.
So, and that, that just.
It makes things a lot easier if
your own party, you know, if the
party running the show has got
the support of your own party.
So, so, I talked, so I
talked to my, my state rep.
He said, I'll contact the ag
chairman and see what he thinks.
The next day, a companion bill,
an identical bill was introduced.
So it was all about.
My, my brand new rep wanting to impress
it, funding to help a constituent and, and
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
wanting to impress the new,
the new guy in his own party.
And he just did it and, and didn't
even know anything about it.
He just introduced the
bill, you know, so I
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
you very much.
But it was just, it was
weird the way that happened.
So then from there, it
was just a matter of.
of getting somewhere with it.
And I, I'm, I don't have the, the
time here to really explain that whole
process, but I would, I would recommend
your listeners to, to look up, there's
an old schoolhouse rock I'm Just a Bill.
Do you remember that?
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yes.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah, you can find it on YouTube.
It's about three minutes long.
But it's a little cartoon video that
where it's, it, the star is a little
rolled up piece of paper named Bill
and he talks about how he's going
to hopefully find his way through
Congress and become a law someday.
And he explains that whole, and it's cute
and it's, it's, it's very informative.
And, you know, that's talking
about Congress, but most of the
states operate the same way, but
you're basically Introducing that
bill and it gets assigned to a
committee, which in our case was
the Ag Committee on both sides.
And, and they got to bring it
up for a hearing at some point.
And, and then if they pass
it forward, then it goes to
the, to the full house for.
So we we then, so we, so we basically
had from that time see, the one bill was
February 24th and the other was March 3rd.
We had till May 15th to
get these things passed.
And so then beyond the next step for us.
Was to testify in committee.
And by the way, that, that former
lobbyist on the MSBA board who at first
said, we don't have time to do this.
He was a huge help to me.
He walked me through the whole process
and how it works and through the house
website and the Senate website, telling
me, showing me how I can track a bill.
See if there's any amendments to it.
Find out when committee hearings are,
what the latest action is and everything.
It was, it was very helpful to
me, especially since our first.
We were all set to testify.
I had asked four other beekeepers
from different parts of the state
to meet me down in Jefferson city to
testify to the Senate Ag Committee.
That one got canceled the night before
because Senator Riddle had the flu
and couldn't make it, so they canceled
that one.
But then I was, I was on the house
website that Friday and noticed where
they had scheduled a house meeting.
And I, Zach hadn't told me about
it and I called him and said, Hey,
there's this house meeting I just saw.
And he's like, Oh yeah, I was
going to tell you about that.
But, but anyway, we got our, our ducks in
a row and we got down there and testified.
And, And, actually that, where that
house chairman introduced the bill.
Without knowing anything about
it, we actually ran into a snag
there after we gave our testimony.
There was one woman that got up.
She wasn't from the health department, but
she was some, some coalition of health.
groups or something that
we all kind of thought
the health department might have
put her up to it, but she got up
and she argued against the getting
rid of that label requirement.
And cause she said, well, you know,
people need to know that they just
assume that their food's been inspected
by somebody and they need to know if
it's not, and, and somebody on the
committee turned to the Ag chairman
who had introduced the bill and said,
Well, what do you think about this, Jay?
And he said, yeah, I don't
know why that's in there.
We could, we could, you know, we
could put that language back in there.
And I'm, I'm thinking, yeah,
you don't know anything about it
cause you didn't return my calls.
But, but anyway, I, I got an opportunity
to, to get up and afterwards and, and
argue my point, you know, about, and I,
and I used the whole state versus state
thing that, you know, you're putting your
own state's beekeepers at a disadvantage.
So they, they, you know, and.
So everything was fine.
We kept the language the way we wanted it.
But the amazing thing about this
was we got no, no disagreement at
all from any of the legislators.
They kept interrupting us with
statements like, well, honey's
like the perfect food, isn't it?
And I heard that it never spoils
and it's good for allergies, you
know, and we're just nodding along.
And so, so everything went, went great.
And the, the neat thing too, is when
the hearing was over, we walked out.
were followed up by one of a woman
from ST louis ar I just want to tell
you h to have real people come us
their stories and not do it for them.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: oh,
yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
good about ourselves.
So went much the same way an testifying
on the other s So they both, they were
b Easily, you know, unanimously and, and
and they both passed passed easily and
the full, the House and the Senate too,
but even though they were, and I was
thinking, oh, great, we're done, but no,
even though they're identical, one of
these still has to go to the other side.
And find its way through.
And, and
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
so again, it was just a
matter of beating that clock.
And, And, we, there was, even though there
was no opposition, we were very close
at the end because we ran into a bunch
of, we ran into other unrelated stuff.
One of them, the the Senate.
Let's see, the House, the House
committee, which was considering the
Senate bill, piled a bunch of unrelated
amendments onto it, basically stuff
that couldn't pass by themselves.
So they basically sunk our
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
And so we were, we were
counting on the Senate.
Well, the Senate quit, the Senate went
shut down a week prior to the end.
on a filibuster over
a right to work issue.
And so we were done for there.
And then we were, so then
we're like sending emails.
I'm sending emails out to say, hey,
contact your, your house people,
tell them to pull these amendments
and, you know, and everything.
And then the house shut down
two days left to go over, over
a sex scandal of all things.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: oh no.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
The house speaker had a dalliance
with a 19 year old intern.
And they shut down the house on
Wednesday when they were, they were,
the session was ended on Friday.
They shut down the house, opened up back
up Friday morning with a new speaker.
And they said, let's pass some stuff.
And we were one of 32 bills that,
that got squeezed through at the
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: oh, got in there.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234: it
up, stripped the amendments and passed it.
And, and it was way more trouble
than it should have been, but
somehow we got it passed and, and I
was, I pretty much decided I wasn't
going to go through that again.
So I was glad it, glad it made it through.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Was
there any issue with getting
the governor to sign it?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
No, the governor, we were pretty,
pretty confident about we didn't hear
anything from him one way or another,
but, but his wife had actually.
She was, she was a regular customer
of one of our, one of our members in
Jefferson city, and she'd actually come
up, come to one of our meetings when we
met in Jeff city and, and talked to us.
So we knew that we felt
pretty confident about that.
It took, it took a month or
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh
yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
him to finally get around to
signing it, but, but he did.
And, and so it went into
effect that, that August.
But you know, the, the really, there,
there are some, to me, there are some,
some, some lessons to be learned here.
The, the, the first one
just being, you can do this.
I mean, that's the thing I've
been telling people.
Because people just kind of get used
to, to dealing with these, these laws.
You know, in, in this and,
and, and everywhere else.
You know, you get used to, you know, Well,
I don't like this government regulation,
but what am I going to do about it?
It's set in stone, and I'm not
going to be the guy who's going to
be able to do something about it.
And even if you want to, getting
some people to go along with you,
and you know, it's a hard process.
And I don't know.
I still, I still am annoyed every
time I read something or watch
something where they're talking, giving
instructions about extracting your
honey and all these things that kind
of throw in the obligatory paragraph.
Of course, you know, you can't sell
this through stores unless you rent a
kitchen or build a kitchen to do it in.
And, and it's just kind of a matter of
fact thing that this is the way things
are, because there are a lot of states
that, that, still have these rules.
It's, It's, something that
they're all very similar.
It's something somebody apparently
passed many years ago and everybody
else jumped on board and followed
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
It doesn't have to be that way.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Yeah, I see
a lot of bills that are introduced and
when you see them they're the exact
wording from another state that they
just brought, someone brought over.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah.
Yeah.
And really all it, all it takes is
for somebody to start this process.
This is, this is something that.
Like I said, there's no opposition to it.
You're not going to, not going to
get any reason, any, any significant
pushback from the legislators.
It's just a matter of going through the
process and it's not an easy process.
And I understand it.
And, and actually in some ways I,
You know, we ran into a lot of stuff
that we shouldn't have run into
with the, with at the end there.
But I,
I understand why the
process is diff difficult.
It, it shouldn't be easy to pass
a law because frankly, most of the
laws they pass . I'd rather not.
I'd rather they didn't pass 'em.
So I'm
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Right.
I agree.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
point, but, but, it's just a matter
of somebody, somebody taking the ball.
And, and I, I was fortunate at that
time, and the, the job that I had, I was.
I was working in printing and I was in
kind of an R and D role, so I wasn't
out there running the press where I
couldn't take a day off work without
upsetting the apple cart, you know,
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
I was, you know, in some ways a non
essential employee, I guess I could, I
could take a day off on short notice,
like I did to go testify a couple of
times and that helped, but it is going
to make a difference for a lot of
people and there was, there was nothing.
Nothing special about
me at the time going in.
I had no particular
knowledge of how to do this.
You can see, you know, like I was
explaining, I was kind of at a loss at
the beginning and just kind of things
fell into place here and there and
we were able to get it to get it through.
But
I went through the process, Yeah, I'll
make no bones about the fact that I, this
was personal for me at the beginning.
I, first of all, first of
all, it just rankled me to no
end that, that they did this.
But then just the, the lack
of empathy that I got from the
inspectors, I kind of got, kind
of got my, my, my heart set in it.
And I was going to, I was going to
push this through on, on principle.
And, and then the further I went into
it, the more I started hearing From other
people that just was affecting them too.
And once we got it all done, some of the
responses I got were just, just amazing.
I mean, I had a guy call me from Arkansas.
He said, I live, I live just
across the border from Missouri.
I run 80 to a hundred hives
on both sides of the border.
And up until now, I've been selling
my Arkansas honey in Missouri
stores and my Missouri honey.
in Arkansas stores just to get
around these stupid laws on both
sides of the, on both sides of the
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
And now at least I can sell my
honey in Missouri store, my Missouri
honey in Missouri stores legally.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
did change their law a couple,
a couple of years ago, too.
They have they still have a
labeling, that labeling requirement,
but you don't need the kitchen
anymore, which is, which is great.
But I also had a guy at our, at our
fall meeting that year, we brought
in Senator Riddle and, and gave her
a nice plaque and, and honored her.
She got up and said a few words
at our Friday night banquet.
And the next morning I
had a guy approach me.
At the first break at the conference
and he came walking up to me,
big burly guy he came, walked up
to me, grabbed hold of my hand.
He said, I live down
Southwest corner of the state.
He said, I want you to know
I'm driving for four hours.
What did he say?
I'm driving.
I forget what it was, four hours
round trip or something this, this
weekend, just to shake your hand.
I've been down there dealing
with the health department.
I've last year, I was going back and forth
with my county health department, trying
to determine what it was going to cost me
to, to build one of these dang kitchens.
My estimate was up to
20, 000 and counting.
And I read about this bill and I held off.
Now I don't have to do it.
I'm standing there.
I, I, Getting tears in my eyes in
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
squeezing my hand so hard, but just,
you know, it just kind of hit me that,
you know, something that just started
out as a personal matter ended up You
know, helping a lot of people and, and
I, I'm really glad I went through it.
And I just think it's important for
people to know that you can, you can do
that if you, if you really want to do it.
Yeah.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: That's great
information just knowing you're able to
go through there and get the bill passed,
go through all those steps, because,
you know, outside of the schoolhouse
rock jingle, that's about all most of
us have done in that realm, so it's
really intimidating as we think about it.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234: And
it's really good to see there are more
states that are, that are doing this.
I mean, I mentioned, I mentioned Arkansas.
We've also got New Jersey just passed
something a couple of years ago.
I think they passed it.
What was it in 2022?
And they actually passed it two years in a
row, unanimously, through the legislature.
The governor vetoed it the first time.
He actually, he pocket vetoed it the
first time, which, what that means is if.
If you, if it passes late in the session,
your government can just ignore it
for 60 days or something like that.
And then it just dies.
You don't even have to take a stand.
I hate that.
And then the second year, they
passed it again, and it was the
same governor, but he left town.
Both the governor and the lieutenant
governor left town, they were traveling
somewhere, and some junket, and that
put the Senate, I think it was the
Senate president in charge, and he
signed a bunch of bills, including the
time bill, and so they got it through
that, snuck it through that way, so.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yes.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
So that's nice.
Kansas right now has got,
they've got committee hearings.
This, this week, one of the committee
hearings, they've got a bill basically
based on ours, and they're using
our example saying, hey, we're at a
disadvantage now to our neighboring
state, several of our neighboring
states, including Missouri.
We need to catch up to their law and
allow our beekeepers some freedom.
So, so that's, that's really great to see.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah, it is.
Yeah.
Well, Eugene, it is time for us to
transition to our famous four questions.
Same four questions we
ask of all of our guests.
Our first question, what is your favorite
beekeeping related book or resource?
And I think there's an obvious answer
here, but we'll see if you go with it.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Yeah, I, I think I would
definitely put American Bee
Journal somewhere in the top 10
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
now that I think, you know, both,
both magazines are, are good.
I've, I've gotten both magazines
for, for over 25 years.
And, and I of course, It's no
secret that I like ABJ better,
and I've always liked it better.
I thought it was, you know,
just, it's the larger magazine,
and I've always preferred it.
But both of those magazines are good.
I think a great resource is The Hive
and the Honeybee, which was Langstroth's
original book way back one day, and
has published it since late 1800s.
They published the first major revision,
and they've been at it ever since.
Thanks.
There are a lot of, a lot of
good, good books out there.
Our, our the beekeeper, beekeeping
handbook is the one that we
use for our beginners classes.
The beekeepers, let me see, turn
around here, look at it on the shelf.
The beekeepers handbook
is what it's called.
It's Diana Samantaro
and Alphonse Avatable.
We've been using that for a long time.
It's a good basic resource.
And then there's some, there's
some good podcasts out there.
This of course is, is a new one.
Beekeeping Today is a pretty good one.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yes.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
There's, you know, there's, there's
a lot of good resources out there.
And then, you know, there's
some good Facebook groups too.
We've got a great one.
Missouri beekeepers Facebook
group is a really good one.
Oh, oh, and I have to mention too,
there's a, there's an internet list called
listserv, it's called the BEE-L B E E - L.
I've been on that thing since
right after I started beekeeping.
I've got internet about the same time.
I found this research.
It's a discussion group.
It's, it's, there's a lot of science
base to it, but it's, it's really good.
It's a wealth of information.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236:
Excellent resources there.
I haven't thought about a list-serv
in in years, I would have to
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Definitely old school.
I mean, old, old, I mean, it's
new in that it's internet, I
guess, but old school internet.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Right, yes.
Our second question.
What's your favorite piece
of equipment for beekeeping?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
You know, I'm not really a gadget guy.
I've got my, my Jayhook hive
tool and my date and smoker.
And I'm good to go for the most part.
Now, where it comes to extracting, I
got a couple of, a couple of things
that were life changing for me.
One was, you know, when you, you, you
load that extractor up, whether it's
a four frame or a 12 frame, or you,
when you start spinning it, it always
wants to wobble and bounce around
like an unbalanced washing machine.
And, and some of it is just.
Unbalanced, but, but even if you work
pretty hard to balance out your frames,
you still got a lot of that bouncing
around and somebody suggested at
one point put casters on the bottom.
So you're like my, my extractor I've
got at my, I got a 12 frame or now
electric and it's, it's mounted on a
wooden box I made out of plywood and
just to get it up off the ground, off the
ground so you can drain into a bucket.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh, yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
and that thing would bounce all over
and there's two or three of us on
there holding the thing down and
just put a, put a caster on each
corner, a little wheel on each corner.
It makes all the difference in the world.
Now it just kind of, just kind of
wobbles a little bit and it might
move a little bit and you just reach
out with one hand and move it back.
And it's, it's, it's,
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
yeah.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
really, really a great great idea.
And the other one is when I
talk about draining that into
a bucket, they have these.
These filters, these plastic, you
can buy a set of plastic filters.
They're medium course and fine.
Set that into your bucket
and it drains in there.
The problem is, as that bucket's getting
full, you can't see where the level is.
And then when it bottoms out in there,
You can't fill the thing the whole way up.
You got to lift it up and wait for
that to drain as much as possible.
So you're not slinging honey
while you're transferring it.
Well, I got this Dan was selling
these, these filter stands.
It's a stainless steel stand.
It sits on top of that bucket.
Mounts onto the, you know, just sits
on the, on the edge of the bucket.
You set that filter stand on there and
it's gets it off, off the top of that,
that bucket and you can watch it and, and
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
don't make a mess.
And you can see, you can fill that
bucket all the way to the top.
And, and those, you know, I looked at
those in the catalog for a couple of
years and I'm as cheap as they come.
And it was, it was like 20 at the time.
And I held off and I
finally, finally bought one.
It's like, Oh my gosh, that is, that is
the best thing I've ever, I've ever had.
And that was probably five years ago.
They're probably 30 now with the
way stainless steel is going up.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236: Oh,
yeah.
Well, it's probably 40.
Our third question, what would you
tell someone just getting started?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
I always tell people you
want to take a workshop.
I mean, you, you want to, you
want to join a local club.
You got to every day,
every month resource there.
And you want to take a workshop and
just get yourself a base of knowledge.
And, and I even tell people who
start middle of the year and
struggle, and I mentor them.
I still tell them, you know, come to our
workshop in the spring and, and, just
get that, get that broad based knowledge.
It's going to make a
big difference to you.
And of course, subscribe to my magazine.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236:
Well, of course, yeah.
Excellent answer there.
Excellent advice.
And lastly, Eugene, where can
others find out more about you?
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
Well, you can, you can email me.
You can find me at editor
at AmericanBeeJournal.
com.
It's the best way to contact me.
And yeah, that's, that's
basically, basically it.
I'm not not out there on TV or anything.
I don't think so.
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236:
Wonderful, Eugene.
We appreciate you coming on
and sharing with us today.
squadcaster-cbgh_1_02-05-2025_103234:
All right.
I appreciate you having me on.
Congratulations on the podcast.
I like, I like what I've, the
couple that I've watched so far
cal_1_02-05-2025_103236:
Oh, well, thank you.
I appreciate