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Welcome to "Connections," the podcast that bridges the gap between addiction and mental health through the prism of policy and practice. Join the hosts, Morgan Coyner and Sara Howe, as they unravel the intricate connections within the world of addiction. In each episode, they dive deep into the intersection of prevention and recovery.
Welcome to Connections, the podcast from addiction professionals of North Carolina, where we explore the nuances of addiction and mental health through the lens of policy and practice. We're your hosts, Morgan Coyner and Sarah Howe, and we're here to help you see how it all connects. Today I'm thrilled to have with us Greg Williams, the president of Third Horizon Strategy and producer of High Watch Media and somebody you might all know.
Who has done a lot of work in this field, particularly some of the films that have been groundbreaking to our work. So we're going to talk to Greg today about his journey as a filmmaker, the work he does now, and maybe a sneak peek about where we're going in the future with some of your films. So Greg, welcome.
Well, thanks. It's great to be here. Morgan and Sarah. Thanks for having me. We're super excited. There are so many places we could take this conversation and it's I promise it's not a three day conversation. So we're going to jump right in. A lot of people know you as the director of the anonymous people, which now is what from 2008.
Is that right? No, it's 2000. It's close. 2012. I think we, uh, 13. We probably, we premiered it in 2013. Okay. Okay. So for those of you who haven't had the opportunity to meet Greg, we like to call him a little bit of famous in our field because you can walk to several of our service providers and the individuals who are seeking recovery will recognize you right away.
From The Anonymous People to Generation Found, Tipping the Pain Scale. Let's start, let's go back a little bit. How'd you get to that point of putting this onto film? Documenting what we know is there are people in recovery every day that live among us and we don't know that they're on a recovery journey.
How'd you get to that point? Yeah, I, so I got into recovery when I was 17 and um, Um, I didn't think I was going to go into this field or work, uh, you know, in or on behalf of, of individuals, um, in addiction or seeking recovery. And, um, you know, so basically my story is like, I, I lived two lives, um, you know, while I was going to college and media production where, you know, I had my recovery life and, and, uh, It felt, uh, very secretive to my other life, which was like a college professional life.
And I kept the two identities pretty compartmentalized, uh, in my first few years of recovery. Um, and, and looking back in hindsight, it felt very much like active addiction. Uh, you know, where, where you compartmentalize. Different identities, whether you're, you're talking to, to a parent, uh, police officer, uh, you drug dealer or, or a teacher or what have you.
Um, so it was, uh, very eerily similar, uh, compartmentalizing, you know, different parts of, of my own personal identity. And I, um, you know, just, I, I got interested in policy and, and sort of the. The finance system and I met some folks who, um, were part of the new recovery advocacy movement and, um, you know, it was watching them and watching them, their work around mental health, addiction, parity and equity and, and, uh, reading, uh, William White's work who, who wrote, uh, slaying the dragon and, um, a lot of, uh, publications around the new recovery advocacy movement, um, where I really got inspired to want to, um, Make a film about, um, you know, these changes and these people who are pushing on, uh, different, um, uh, Parts of the system, uh, and, and bringing voices to recovery.
So, um, I, I got trained on how to tell my recovery story, uh, from, from a North Carolina local now, uh, you know, Betty Currier and, uh, and others and, and people, uh, help, help me see the path. So. That was the real journey. And I just started to sit down folks and ask them questions. And, um, uh, one thing led to another.
Were you expecting the response that the Anamnes people had? You know, I, um, no, I, I think not, certainly not 10 years later, uh, that, you know, we're still talking about it. That, that's. Mind boggling to me. I think going through it. It still felt like a slow drip, you know, like this one talking to this one. I mean, we had, you know, at that time we're on Netflix and stuff like that, but it, um, You know, it was, it was an interesting time.
It was just people, it was a bunch of people who got fired up, who didn't want to see the film, a bunch of people who, who got fired up from seeing the film and it put me in sort of a controversial, you know, uh, instigator place, which, which, uh, you know, it's, uh, you know, it was an interesting place to be because it was, it's a film that, you know, people have lots of.
Preconceived ideas and beliefs about anonymity in particular in the 12 step movement. And, um, it's hard to disrupt people's. Dogmatic beliefs about that, um,and the film intended to do that and I think successfully did that for, for folks who are willing to watch it. There's still a bunch of people who will bring themselves to watch it and try to think about it from a different perspective.
But, um, yeah, so, so it's always is a documentary filmmaker. It's always good to strike the chord of controversy and. In a good and productive way to, to, to kind of motivate people. But, um, I think to your point, like the, you know, these films don't make money. Um, they, you know, they're social impact films that Jeff and I make.
And I think that at the end of the day, you know, seeing the growth of recovery community centers, seeing the growth of peer recovery support services for substance use, seeing the growth of collegiate recovery programs. Um, you know, that's, that's the stuff that, that really, uh, heartens, you know, in terms of what, what the impact and, and, and the meaning.
And, and so, um, you know, that's really what matters. I think what's cool about that though, even like these films give us an opportunity to bring people into the conversation. Like I think about my family and they are not super knowledgeable about mental health or substance use, and they, they don't. Talk about it very much, even though it is very seriously impacted our family and, you know, I can say, okay, well, like, let's watch this movie.
Right? And then we watch it and they're like, Oh, that's what you were trying to tell me. Right? And it's like, I don't always have the right words or the right way of telling something. But this film or any of your films really for for the different, you know, areas that they cover can be that conversation starter.
And it's a lot less threatening to watch a film with someone than to sit down and have a conversation about, like, I want you to understand, like, this really complex topic, right? Um, and I think that's what makes it really great, you know, even if they don't make millions of dollars at a box office somewhere.
The advocacy. Yeah. It's population, right? Well, that and, yeah, it's the same as recovery, like, you know. I went to a residential treatment center as an adolescent. And to be honest, they told me the same thing that my parents had told me, and other people had told me, right? That I had a problem and I needed to stop.
But it's the age old saying of, you know, when the student is ready, the teachers appear. And I think Part of the family dynamics related to addiction is that part of this disease is that we can't hear each other sometimes, um, despite that we're, we're sharing the same message just because of all of the unhealed pain that, that happens in families related to addiction.
And so like that story more like that kind of stuff really matters because I've, I've had a lot of experience and it's not me. It's, it's the messengers who are in that film. People are hearing them and hearing their voices, and they don't have baggage with those people, so they may be saying exactly what you're telling mom and dad, but, but it's, uh, it, you know, it comes across different, uh, I think when, um, it's put in a specific way, and the folks that I got to interview and have been privileged to interview Uh, for lots of the films, I think are people who've been in the field for a long time and been in recovery for a long time.
And those are messengers that I think, um, a lot of folks haven't heard before. They might have seen, you know, kind of the interventions of the world about addiction or, or, or stuff about, you know, people in active treatment, but somebody with, You know, 25, 30 years of recovery like Stacia Murphy, just she, she talks about this issue in a way that is far, uh, more eloquent, um, and has more depth, uh, than, than, uh, folks, you know, going through it actively, you know, you mentioned something about listening to your parents and, and being able to hear that message and you're a parent now.
So what's it like to be a parent in recovery? What messages do you share with your kids? I'm sure many of our listeners are the same. How, how do you address that with your kids? Yeah, I, you know, it's, it's interesting to know like the age groups too. I, I tried to take my oldest son to a screening of of tipping the pain scale, um, I think a year ago or a year and a half ago, and he was like eight and a half or nine and, um, it was too much for him, you know, he wasn't, you know, it's, it's, I mean, the film is great, I think, for 12, 13, 14, but it was too much for him at, at, at eight, and, and so it's been a tricky balance for me trying to figure out, um, You know, how much to share and what to share when and and around the developmental process.
I just was in the car with him the other day and he's going into 5th grade and I, we started talking about, you know, drugs. And obviously the, the thing that that terrifies me is, uh, as a parent, like, you know, addiction, scary and, and, and all of that. But what's what's terrifying right now is, is, um. Yeah. Is the poison drug supply.
And it's just, you know, adolescent overdoses, uh, are, are increasing again for the first time in a long time. Um, and a lot of it isn't young people with substance use disorder. It's, it's, you know, first time, uh, use and, and, and it's just, they're, they're ingesting poison and, and that's, that I think is terrifying that, that, um, You know, um, so anyways, it is
I, I can tell you that my family didn't, like they came from a healthcare background and they didn't know what to do. Like it blindsided them and they didn't have any knowledge or training. I, I, um, can't say that I, I, I, I probably wouldn't get blindsided by it, but I, I, I, not saying I've got a, a silver bullet to prevent it or, or anything like that, but, but certainly, um.
You know, my son knows what therapy is. My son knows, uh, you know, about his development of his brain. My son knows, um, about those kinds of things and coping mechanisms and coping skills and, you know, a whole bunch of stuff about himself that at 10, that I had no knowledge about myself, you know, before I picked up substances.
So hopefully that stuff matters. And I think too, like, there's something to be said for, like, Um, your kids seeing you live in recovery, right? Like, like there's even if you're not saying like, I'm in recovery, that means I don't use substances, right? Like, they will one day reflect on their own childhood and see what that means.
And all, just the way you live your life as a human being in recovery, like impacts the father that you are, right? Like it, it makes you a different father than you would be if you hadn't found recovery, right? And so, I think that's um, All of us look back on our childhoods and have like those reflections of like, wow, my parents actually knew some stuff and they were not crazy.
And I definitely probably should not have gone to that thing that they wouldn't let me go to. And that was a good choice. Right. And so, um, I think like recovery is part of that for your family in, in ways that you probably won't know for another 10, 15, 20 years, uh, because your kids can't articulate it yet.
You know? Yeah, I, yeah. I just celebrated 22 years last month and I was walking the dog and I came home and I walked in and they, they, they handed me like a card, you know, uh, uh, my, my five year old and seven year old and, um, you know, and then my wife and stuff. And so it's just, yeah, it's been incredible to, to, you know, for them to.
To just support. Obviously, they don't fully understand, you know, the other side of it. Like they just they aren't growing up around addiction. Um, and, and I think the, uh, uh, you know, the cycle of that is powerful. And I think, um, yeah, it's, I mean, it's the greatest gift, um, you know, to myself about being able to, you know, be present, um, and, and, and be a parent.
Thank you. You've dedicated your career to this in multiple ways. You've, you've done it through the arts and through film. And then one of the things that I've said to you before that amazes me is that you have an artistic side and then you can work an Excel spreadsheet like nobody's business and talk about alternative payment methodologies and really the financing of this system, right?
You talked about really two very critical things because if we can't pay for it. How are people going to get the care, right? And then we have to really cut down on that stigma, which is what the films and the work that you do. Um, tell us a little bit more about the next film and what you're hoping to accomplish with the next project.
Yeah, well, we have a couple of projects, uh, you know, in development, and I'm privileged to get to do a lot of this with, um, The incredibly talented Jeff Reilly, who's the director of Generation Found and co creator of Anonymous People and director of Tipping the Pain Scale and editor. And so we're finishing up a film, actually a sports film, uh, around the Jensen brothers, uh, who are tennis doubles and they won the French Open in 93.
And they, um, Murphy Jensen became, um, actively addicted and it has a harrowing story of. Um, of his journey through, um, active addiction and recovery and his relationship with his brother, Luke, um, you know, while being, you know, the third biggest draw in tennis behind, you know, Connors, Agassi and the Jensen brothers.
And so, um. So that project is going on and then we were working on developing some other projects, um, you know, in the works around, uh, in NIMBY issues with local zoning boards and opening programs and how to, um, you know, capture what's happening in local communities. I think we, we see a lot of funding, um, coming from the federal government coming from states coming from, uh, even philanthropy in some respects.
But. When it comes down to it, um, we have a treatment gap and we have a significant treatment gap, uh, for, for those who are in need, uh, for those who can access services. Um, and the problem is when you try to, um, open a program in a local community, um, it's not always about the money. Sometimes people have the money to open the program.
Sometimes people have the willingness to open the program. Um, and it becomes about politics and it becomes about the political will of the community to allow, uh, a program that's supporting recovery, uh, take shape, whether that's a recovery home, whether that's a treatment center, whether that's a sober sobering center, uh, which we're seeing a lot more communities.
Um, but it's just this, this inevitable, you know, not in my backyard and, you know, people rise up over cell phone towers and all sorts of stuff in their local communities, uh, that they don't want in their backyard. Uh, but this, you know, unfortunately, we know from the data is, is in everybody's backyard and, uh, uh, we know that, you know, having programs supporting people, uh, reduces crime, increases economic growth of communities, uh, and, and can, you know, transform, um, You know, this issue and, and I think, uh, it's just, it's sad that there's so much stigma still yet to, to resolve, um, for people, uh, and, uh, and it, and it's going to happen, you know, change is going to have to be local and, and a lot of ways because, uh, so much of this issue is related to, to the local dynamics, um, around how, uh, people, uh, find and sustain recovery and get well.
As we wrap up our conversation today for those listeners who have experienced that in their communities That are starting to see that or they're trying to get something open and they're getting some pushback What do you recommend they do? How can they maybe get involved so that they can support? This movement to bring more services to bear which we know like you said, there's a giant gap What what would you tell them?
Yeah, well, I mean, I think the first and most important thing, um, is that of the cases that I've looked at, you know, by and large the, um, the municipal zoning board or county zoning board, um, they act illegally, uh, and it's against the Fair Housing Act. It's against the ADA. A lot of times, um, when they make these determinations that don't have any basis in fact, uh, and don't have any basis in, uh, um, reasonable, um, you know, zoning violations or anything.
And so, uh, unfortunately, there's no simple answer, but a lot of it relies on fighting and, and, and, you know, uh, have to get, you know, some lawyers involved and, uh, but by and large, uh, most. Uh, treatment programs, recovery houses, um, addiction programs at large who, who have fought back against stigma and discrimination, um, you know, if they, if they stick with it, they win and sometimes they win big settlements from the community who violated the law.
Uh, and so, you know, D importantly DOJ, the department of justice, the federal department of justice clarified. Uh, that, that it is a violation of the American Disabilities Act, um, to, to, uh, not allow somebody, not allow a recovery house, uh, you know, and, and, and that kind of thing. So, um, there's decent precedent now, um, but it's not stopping.
You know, locally, so it's from, uh, you know, it's, it's like the same with insurance companies who, you know, used to deny care, deny care, deny care and hope that you would just, uh, go away and stop, stop, uh, you know, and walking away, not being able to afford the lawyers. Right. And, um, it's. And I think it's important to know, though, Greg, and I hope your film is able to showcase this if it is, that in those communities where they've prevailed, if you go back a year or two later, they're the best neighbor there is.
They love them. The conversation, oh, they're great, we're glad to have them, and you know, all of their concerns that they bring, you know, with their pitchfork, so to speak, don't, they don't bear out. We don't see that. So I think it's not a logic issue. Right? Yeah, it's not. If logic could fix it. I toured a, you know, and there's 40 years of history, but there's a great nonprofit outside of the Pennsylvania area, Philadelphia, and, you know, there's an elementary school and, uh, Uh, a legacy, you know, addiction treatment provider, you know, no fences, no walls, you know, it's, they're just, it's a nice setting on a campus across from a hospital, you know, and it's, uh, they, they're great, they're great neighbors and they've got decades of experience, you know, and.
Um, it's, uh, it's just fear. I mean, people just, you know, unfortunately, uh, it's fear and pain, you know? I mean, that's the, that's the bottom line. Unfortunately, uh, the hard part working on this issue is there's a lot of unhealed pain. Uh, and, and addiction for better or worse, like connects with everybody, but it doesn't always connect for people in a positive way.
Um, either they grew up around addiction and they have a lot of unhealed pain, they've lost somebody from, from addiction, um, and they have unhealed pain around it, uh, or, or they've beenharmed by somebody in active addiction. And so I think we just, um, we have to acknowledge that the, the, no matter which room you walk into, where you walk into, uh, everybody's been touched by this issue, but that's not always a positive, um, you know, because the issue.
It's complicated. It's very personal to many people. Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you for what you're doing and for taking the time to come talk to us today. Um, and also as you, uh, as you wrap up a couple of those films, we hope you'll come back and tell us, tell us the response you're getting. Um, cause we'd love to continue that.
So thank you again for that. Yeah. Thanks so much. We, we appreciate you joining us. Yep. Yeah. Well thanks A PNC for everything you guys do and, and keep up the good fight. Yep, definitely.