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You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist intimately explores the human experience while critiquing the state of the counseling profession as it yields to cultural madness. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills years of wisdom gained from her practice as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist as she pivots away from treating patients, and toward the question of how to apply psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century. What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of gender identity to assisted suicide? Stephanie invites heretical, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including current and former therapists, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners. Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
Swell AI Transcript: 143. Harrison Tinsley.mp3
Harrison Tinsley:
Sure, I'm the lucky one. Just know I don't take it for granted at all. I savor every moment with Sawyer. I'm so thankful, and I'm so sorry that these other parents don't get to be with their kids. I know what it was like, but I don't take it for granted, and I'm not gonna stop fighting for you guys, for anyone. This is wrong. To touch on The nature of evil, I mean, no one in history that did the greatest evil atrocities that have happened believed they were doing evil. They believed they were doing good. It doesn't matter what you believe you're doing. What matters is the result. The result is these kids are being sterilized. These kids are being taken from safe parents. It's not okay. It needs to stop.
SPEAKER_03: You must be some kind of therapist.
Stephanie Winn: Today I'm speaking with Harrison Tinsley. Harrison is a parental rights advocate and protector of children. Recently, he won full custody of his 5-year-old son, Sawyer, whom he saved from gender ideology and an unsafe environment. He speaks up against gender ideology being pushed on children. Kids being given irreversible surgeries and puberty blockers and hormones. Men being in women's sports and spaces. And he says, Dad's rights matter. Harrison lives by the motto. Be brave. So today we're going to chat. And this conversation is for all the parents out there needing a little encouragement, especially if you're considering dealing with the court system. That being said, I just have to say up front, of course, this podcast is not legal advice. Neither Harrison nor I are lawyers, and his story is unique, so we're going to get into that. Anyway, Harrison, welcome to the podcast.
Harrison Tinsley: Thank you so much for having me. I'm stoked to be here.
Stephanie Winn: I'm glad you're here. And for some additional context, your case took place in California, which is not generally known to be the friendliest state to the issue of parental rights, especially as it concerns gender ideology. That being said, there are some particulars in your case. And we were chatting a little bit before we started recording, but I just want listeners to know for context that you have done several interviews on this topic, and I have not listened to any of them. I often go into meetings prepared with, you know, having listened to or read some of my guests' other work, but sometimes I'm not able to. And so that's more kind of going into it blind, which I think has its own advantages because I'm kind of learning your story along with our listeners, sort of asking questions from that blank slate. So where do you think we should begin with the story of your legal case to protect your son?
Harrison Tinsley: I think we should start at the beginning. I also think it's really cool that you kind of don't know my story because usually people already basically know it. So it's less crazy sounding. But yeah, I think that's kind of cool. But I think the beginning would be the place to start.
Stephanie Winn: All right. And where's the beginning?
Harrison Tinsley: OK, I'm living in Tahoe and I come to the Bay Area to visit my parents. And I love to sing and write songs and stuff, so is that karaoke singing? sung a song to this girl, started dating her, we fell in love. And basically, we didn't agree politically. And that seemed to start to cause some issues because that was like right when the country started getting really polarized. And just maybe four months into our relationship or so, she got pregnant. And we were both at least super stoked about that. And we even found out it was a boy. And we were really happy. We both wanted it to be a boy. We agreed upon the name Sawyer, which was really cool. And then when she announced she was pregnant on social media, she said, oh, baby Sawyer, due in December, I'll love you whether you're a boy or girl or neither. And that's where some of the transgender issues started causing problems. You know, that post, and she left me off the post also, and then she would ask me, like, well, what are you going to do if our kid's trans? Different things like that. And it turned into, as her pregnancy went on, her threatening me daily that I wasn't going to see Sawyer. She said it, yeah, she said it to me daily. She said it to my mom. She said it to my sister. This just really became hostile towards me seemingly over politics, so I can't speak for her. And it was about half, yeah.
Stephanie Winn: Just to be clear, the child is in the womb, not even born yet. And this is a new relationship. Oftentimes when people are young and in a new relationship, there's an unexpected pregnancy. It can produce a lot of anxiety, but it seemed like you were both welcoming the pregnancy with open arms, ready to commit to giving the best life to this child, even though it was unexpected. But here it's all very new, very potential. And while she's under the influence of these pregnancy hormones, while she's just still getting to know you, this is becoming this big issue. Theoretically speaking, what if our child is trans? It becomes this huge wedge in the relationship. OK. Yeah. What was your thought process during that time?
Harrison Tinsley: well, it's really scary, but I just told her that I wouldn't affirm a delusion. And once the kid's 18, they could do whatever they want, but I wouldn't let them try to be something that they're not. I would guide them towards truth and love with who they really are. Because I feel like if you love someone with all your heart, like you do your child, how could you not want anything other than them to be happy with who they truly are? What's better than that?
Stephanie Winn: And it seems like you and she had very different definitions of a phrase like who they truly are. Because I'm imagining you mean that in a sense of like the body that they were born with, right? And the trans arts activists twist that into this is who they truly are. They truly are trans. So I just, anyway, so there's a lot going on and it's during the course of the pregnancy that this becomes such a dividing issue.
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, so and about halfway through her pregnancy, she basically broke up with me and cut me off, sent me in a letter from her attorney, like a cease and desist letter kind of thing. And so basically, I respected her letter and I didn't know when my son was born or anything. I found out a week after from social media, one of her friends like showed me and sent me pictures because they thought it was messed up basically. And From there, I went to the court self-help center in San Francisco, and I had to fill out hundreds of pages of paperwork to submit for paternity and custody and visitation. I filed it two months after he was born, and then it took 13 more months just to be able to meet him. She was 15 months old. I finally got to look him in the eyes and hold him and play with him and be with him. 15 months of pure pain and suffering. And it was a tragic time, but it built character and made me a stronger man to be a better dad, a better fighter for children, a better fighter for Sawyer.
Stephanie Winn: And so during that time, that whole 15 months, you're just waiting and trying and navigating the legal system, just trying to get the right to have any kind of connection with your own child because the child's mother had already decided that she didn't want you in their lives. And so then what was the agreement at that point?
Harrison Tinsley: So I wasn't on the birth certificate or anything like that. And then I started to get visitation. The first ones were supervised, not professionally, but by like a friend or dad of hers. And they made it really uncomfortable because like someone's taking, sitting there like trying to take notes or find you doing something wrong or something. But, you know, I just kept my head high and just tried to live in the moment with my son. I mean, it was incredible. I remember you know, looking them in the eyes for the first time and playing with them and being with them. And it was just the best thing in the world. I really think there's nothing better than being a dad or a parent. It's just… the most wonderful thing ever. It transcends the love in your heart. It transcends, you know, whatever I thought was cool in my life before being a dad, whether that be music or snowboarding or hockey or anything. It's just a million times better than all of that. I'm just so thankful that I finally got to meet him. And a few months after these visits, basically I moved to the Bay Area and the judge gave me half custody right away. And I was super thankful for that. And added me to the birth certificate, added my last name to his name. And that was pretty remarkable.
Stephanie Winn: What was the schedule at that point?
Harrison Tinsley: It became like half custody, four, three, three, four.
Stephanie Winn: So the kid never has to be away from either parent for more than four days at a time on that schedule.
Harrison Tinsley: Exactly. Yeah. Oh, and during the, before that, I also had FaceTimes frequently.
Stephanie Winn: And, and what can you tell us about the, your son's sort of living situations and, you know, what the shuffling around and like what his environments were like?
Harrison Tinsley: He was basically going back and forth from, you know, San Francisco to San Jose. And, you know, he had two parents that love him, and I think that's really amazing. That's for sure. And I don't really know what goes on at her house, but I know when I won half custody, things got just really wild. You know, his mom started to pretend he was non-binary at that point, and I believe identified that way herself as well.
SPEAKER_01: And how old is he at this point?
Harrison Tinsley: A year and a half-ish.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
Stephanie Winn: What was her story? What was this? Because she started making up this story while he's in the womb, right? What if our child is neither a boy nor a girl? Then she starts identifying as non-binary. So is she like looking to his behavior for signs of evidence that he's some other gender?
Harrison Tinsley: I don't believe so. He's very boyish, so it doesn't, it wouldn't seem to make any sense. It could have been something just to hurt me. It could be just buying into sort of woke ideology. I'm really not sure, but I know that she really started to go hard on it when I won half custody. She also started to make up a bunch of lies about me, you know, and defamed me horrendously, both online and seemed like anywhere she got the opportunity to, definitely in court. And it was so bad and severe that the court actually the family court gave me a temporary restraining order for defamation and harassment. And Yeah, it was, it was pretty crazy stuff. But, uh, so there was that, the gender stuff, the temporary restraining order, bunch of broken little things, but the courts don't usually care about those. There was also an arrest of his mom a few months after I got half custody, uh, for child endangerment and felony. And she was placed on a 5150 and that was while he was with her.
SPEAKER_01: What did she do?
Harrison Tinsley: Essentially, from what I gather from the police body cam footage and evidence, etc. The charges were later dismissed in San Francisco, but basically. allegedly drinking alcohol and allegedly being very confrontational and aggressive towards her roommate who was trying to move out. And Sawyer was like in between it, you know, and like allegedly throwing Sawyer onto a bed and then even on video him falling off the bed and hitting his head. He's only he's 20 months old at the time and she told the cops like oh, he's a gymnast. He just did a flip I mean, but the whole night was just really weird seeming and scary seeming for a 20 month old so basically I got granted a trial by the family court because of I Mainly those three things and some other stuff. And we ended up having a five-day trial in family court, which I was grateful for because you usually get your 20, 30-minute hearing, and that's it. Your life's decided. Your custody's decided. And I felt like I finally had this opportunity to say what's actually happening and how crazy it is and show all this evidence. But after the trial, the court decided that they would keep custody 50-50 and that they wouldn't rule on the gender stuff, which was super duper surprising to me and my attorney.
SPEAKER_01: Why was that surprising?
Harrison Tinsley: We just felt like we had given a lot of evidence to why it would be in Sawyer's best interest to be with me at least the majority of the time considering the concerns of safety, the gender confusion, and drug, alcohol, mental health issues going on.
Stephanie Winn: Yeah. So, I mean, the behavior, it sounds like, you know, some kind of drunken altercation, unsafe behavior. Then again, this is California with regard to the gender stuff. So it seems like on the one hand on its surface, the whole thing looks so absurd. Like even to those who believe somewhat in gender ideology to like, it would appear to be absurd for a mom to be saying this like child who can like barely say a few words is somehow some like other gender. But you're saying that the court didn't really take that part into consideration either way. They were more like looking at like just the overall safety of the environment but also contrasting that against the court's sort of, you know, bias against taking a young child away from its mother. And so they just kind of split things down the middle in the end.
Harrison Tinsley: Right, which is good, but I should add, though, that I believe we gave enough evidence to prove this beyond – I guess family court doesn't have this – but beyond a reasonable doubt anyways, which is higher than family court standard. So Sawyer adamantly knew he was a boy. He fought against this non-binary or anything like that. His mom would call him they and try to put dresses and makeup on him. For his second birthday, I believe, he told me a story when he got back, she took him to Disneyland. He was like, Dada, when I went to Disneyland, I couldn't go on the rides unless I wore my princess shoes. And I didn't want to wear princess shoes, I wanted to wear boy shoes. So, and I had, you know, just countless videos of him and different things of him saying he's a boy and how he doesn't like that and the Disneyland things on video as well. So I thought it was pretty clear that it was something he really wasn't interested in either and that maybe they would take that into consideration. But I'm thankful that they didn't rule in her favor, even though he didn't buy into it or anything like that. But essentially, I was devastated when I got that result because I felt like I finally had this opportunity to tell my story and actually show some evidence. And, you know, I spend all the money I've ever saved in my life on attorney fees. And I decided that I was going to start speaking out so that basically the world could just see how crazy family court is and how nonsensical this gender madness that people are pushing on the children is and how hurtful it can be to them and confusing.
Stephanie Winn: There's just so many layers of meaning that one could read into a mom telling her two-year-old, you can't go on the Disneyland rides unless you wear the princess shoes. I mean, wow.
Harrison Tinsley: that he was too, I can't say that it's a fact, but I sure believe him, and it just seems really sad that anyone would do that to a kid at the happiest place on earth.
Stephanie Winn: So this is all happening when he's about to, the court's basically giving you 50-50 custody, but now today you have full custody, right?
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, so I mean it took until he was three to have the trial basically. I think we had it around his third birthday. It was like a long process. You know, everyone delays everything and there's back and forths and all this stuff. Family court's a really complicated place, but yeah, so I decided I was gonna start speaking up, and I started to speak up, and I started, you know, the Daily Wire broke my story, and I'm super thankful to them for that, and I started doing all the podcasts and interviews I could to raise awareness about, you know, this gender insanity, and about family court, and about dad's rights, parental rights. I'd go to the California Capitol and speak against some of the you know, insane anti-parent bills they were trying to pass, like AB 957 and 665 and 223. And super thankful to be able to do that because I just met some of the most incredible people. in this sort of war on children sphere I've been in, fighting to protect children. I've just met some amazing, supportive, kind, real human beings that are genuine and really care about protecting children, you know, whether that's mom army, dad army and our duty and freedom angels. so many incredible people. And I'm so thankful for that. And I just kept going through we had basically little hearings about little squabbles in family court that I won't get into constantly. So it never really ended. You know, there's fights over just all sorts of disputes that we didn't agree on. But doing my advocacy, fighting for kids, and then in March of this year, I had a couple missed calls on my phone, and it was San Francisco police telling me to pick Sawyer up. So I went and picked him up. And I, ever since then, I've had full custody of them. At first it was temporarily while CPS did their investigation. Um, but I think it was in August that we all came to an agreement and I was awarded full physical custody and split legal custody, but with the decision-making ability. And I'm just beyond grateful. And I just, it's a dream come true. It's a miracle. I feel like I got. just the most, probably the one and only most amazing CPS workers I could have gotten in San Francisco, California that put politics aside and really cared about the safety of Sawyer and nothing else.
Stephanie Winn: So it sounds like many years of lawyers, courts, disputes, police, CPS, there was a ruling when he was two and another when he was three. And then it was, you said you got a call from the police, so it was his mother's own behavior that led to, I mean, I don't know how much you feel comfortable sharing about what happened this year.
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, I mean, I believe it's public information. But basically, the cops told me, you know, because I now have a criminal protective order on his mom. So, you know, I had known one of the police officers that was there for it, actually. And I basically got the rundown of what happened. And then subsequently, with CPS and everything, I found out all the details and photo evidence, etc. But she was fighting with her dad physically. It was like really serious. According to the police report and the dad statement that he gave to the police, you know, she had broken his nose and he was fearing for his life and they were like really seriously fighting and Sawyer snuck up while they were fighting with his kid's baseball bat or something similar. I'm sure he was wondering what's happening and scared for his mom or grandpa. And when he snuck up, he says that she said, hit him in the face, hit him in the face. And according to her, he did it just on his own. And the dad said that he just didn't remember either way what happened. I tend to believe Sawyer, and so he has to hit his own grandpa in the face with a baseball bat. It's a plastic one, but I don't know that a four-year-old at the time knows the difference. And I even saw in the police evidence a bloodied kid's baseball bat. I think the blood was from her breaking his nose and not that, but I don't really know, I wasn't there. But I just think that's horrifying that a four-year-old would have to go through that. And it's admirable, of course, that he tried to help protect his mom. I love that, but I don't think a four-year-old is in a place to do that. I think a normal, rational adult would just say, run away, run away, or something like that, because I don't think a four-year-old should be involved in something so serious. And that just shows how hard it is to win full custody as a dad. that he would have to go through something so serious and severe. And, you know, also I filed an ex parte in family court the very next day and they denied it in spite of… that claimed evidence, which family court is supposed to take on ex parte is basically your word as the gospel, so to speak. And, you know, if you lie on them, they can punish you later, but they denied it, which was just like, way more mind blowing than the half custody thing. This was like, the fact that they didn't grant that ex parte was.
Stephanie Winn: Can you explain what an ex parte is?
Harrison Tinsley: a request for immediate temporary emergency orders, meaning the child's life is in danger or their safety is severely risked, basically.
Stephanie Winn: Even the day after, there's this police report of this physical altercation where there's blood and there's a four-year-old involved.
Harrison Tinsley: And he's involved, yeah.
Stephanie Winn: really just thinking about the layers of meaning and psychological damage to a child of the little bits of information you shared so far. I'm sure there's a lot more that you either aren't going to share or that you don't even know, but between the, you can't go on the rides unless you wear your princess shoes, to hit your grandpa in the face with a baseball bat for me. These are positions that no young child should ever be put into. So it sounds like she has a history of all kinds of unstable behavior and this was sort of the final straw where maybe it still wasn't even immediate.
Harrison Tinsley: So basically they denied that, right? But CPS was like, don't worry, we have our own court and we're not gonna let him go back to her unless we're sure. It's safe. So CPS temporarily basically gave me custody and gave her professionally supervised visits only, lots of drug and alcohol testing, things like that. And they did a super thorough, long investigation. And I just always, I just opened with them. I talked to them all the time. I showed them all the different things from family court whenever they wanted to see it. You know, I talked to him without an attorney. You know, his mom would only talk to them with an attorney present and not say much and stuff. But yeah, it was just incredible CPS workers, like they genuinely cared about children. Because I hear so many bad stories about CPS, and I know that a lot of them are true, but there is some out there that deserve credit that really do care about children. So they did this long investigation, and then we all came to that. And to mom's credit too, I mean, she had to agree to this because we didn't go to trial, basically. CPS and their attorney, me and my attorney, Sawyer and his appointed minor's counsel, all wanted me to have full custody after the investigation. And mom agreed to it.
Stephanie Winn: Was there anything else unearthed during the investigation about Sawyer's living conditions and how he was treated over there?
Harrison Tinsley: There was another CPS investigation. There was, I'm trying to think about, what's appropriate to say, but like you said earlier, first of all, there's so many things that none of us know about that have probably happened while no one was there to see. I could tell you there's been times where he's repeated things to me like, mama says, dad is a bad guy, or dad is evil, or dad is terrible. Things like that, which is really sad. There was a second CPS investigation in between those two. That first arrest, there was also a CPS investigation, but they didn't do anything. There was a second one, which they didn't even tell me about, which I found concerning. There was an incident alleged by someone that she was doing drugs while they were there with her and Sawyer. So just a lot of really crazy stuff that was unearthed during the CPS investigation. Yeah.
Stephanie Winn: So in the end, you won full custody, not because of the gender stuff at all, but because she was a really unsafe parent.
Harrison Tinsley: Correct, but I did also bring it up to CPS and to everyone every chance I got and I would I would say that though. You're definitely right. I won because the violence Drug alcohol sort of stuff but I think it's important that I had the courage to still say how it was a problem and how he didn't want anything to do with that and I mean, I think it just goes to show and underline anyone who is going to host that before their kid is born, anyone who would not let their kids go on rides unless they wore a certain thing, in my opinion, probably has some pretty serious behavioral and mental health issues.
Stephanie Winn: What was the attitude of the CPS workers and the various people you crossed paths with who you who you tried to raise this issue with?
Harrison Tinsley: Okay, so the first one, where there was the child endangerment arrest, they were, I mean, when they called me to talk to me about it, because they had to see Sawyer and he was with me, it was my custody time. They wanted to FaceTime him and She was very left wing. And she even, it was so bad that she tried to tell me you have nothing to worry about. There was just a misunderstanding and your son fell off a bed. It was like by the grace of God that I even found out actually what kind of went down that night by subpoenaing the police report and then subpoenaing the police body cam footage. And it was way crazier than that. But basically, you know, she was just, completely on mom's side to a degree that was mind-blowing. I mean, she was a witness that testified in court for mom on that first trial even, which is I mean, in my opinion, kind of crazy because she didn't investigate anything. She'd said herself it was an accident and nothing bad had happened. You know, and my attorney goes up there on cross-examination and basically tells her like, okay, your report says this. Mom told you this. here's a video, please play video, blah, blah, blah, it completely contradicts it, like 100%. And then he'll ask her, like, do you feel that mom misled you? And she'll literally sits there and says, No, do you would you have changed your report after seeing these this video at undisputable video evidence that's contrary to what your report said? No, I would not your recommendation of you know, not changing custody. She said no. So There was very clear political bias, in my opinion, in that case. I even Googled and found her on, you know, left-wing podcasts talking about different DEI woke kind of stuff. So I think there's a lot of people that are politically driven, unfortunately, and the subsequent CPS workers, I didn't find out about the next investigation, but the third one, they said, that they found it distasteful and wrong, but the judge is gonna care more about the violent incident.
Stephanie Winn: It's disturbing, but it's not surprising, given how long I've been doing this and the people that I talk to. So that's an example of sort of the far left bias in some CPS workers. you know, potentially how much this person's pre-existing bias might have shaped their receptivity to information, their willingness to do their job, which is about protecting the children. Yeah, it's disturbing, but it's not surprising. But it also sounds like you had much more positive experiences as well. I would imagine in some CPS workers, because, you know, there have been, as I'm sure you're well aware, but some listeners might not be aware, there have been parents who have had CPS investigations opened against them for not affirming their kid's so-called gender identity. And we're talking about loving, stable, safe parents. So I would imagine that depending on the CPS worker, there might be some with good intentions, but a certain type of bias about how they see this issue that would feel some kind of inner conflict meeting a parent like you, because on the one hand, let's say they're intelligent and emotionally intelligent enough and good enough at their job, to understand how the things that you're telling them are harmful to a child, how the mother seemed to have this bias from before the kid was born that she used to drive a wedge with you saying like, you know, that she has this personal emotional attachment to the possibility that her kid has some other gender identity. Like they can see this coming from the mom. They can see the mom pushing the kid in this direction. But on the other hand, they maybe have a biased belief system that gender identity ideology is good and parents who oppose it are bad. So I can imagine some CPS workers having an inner conflict dealing with someone like you because they're like, dad seems stable and reasonable. And he's looking out for kiddos best interest. But dad is opposed to this gender stuff in general. But now the particular way he's expressing opposition, I actually agree with him on that because a parent shouldn't push this on their child. But like, did you did you see those like gears turning and clashing in people's minds?
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, and we would push it in court exactly like that, and I would even push it even at the California Capitol for AB 957, which was a bill that Gavin Newsom actually vetoed. It was a miracle because we put so much pressure on him, but it did pass it, you know, the House and Senate of the California legislator, but it was a bill basically saying that judges should strongly take into consideration to rule with the affirming parent of gender ideology, how the kid This is their words, not mine, because it's ridiculous, but you know, identifies. But I would go up there and tell Scott Wiener and friends, okay, so this is the bill 957. It's judges basically should give custody to the gender affirming parent. Well, okay. So here's my story and give it as quick as I could. So basically my son says he's a boy and I say he's a boy and his mom pretends he's non-binary. So I'm the affirming parent and I should be the first parent to win full custody because your bill, correct? and they would reluctantly say yeah, basically, which was really interesting.
Stephanie Winn: Wow.
Harrison Tinsley: And to your point about CPS, I think the fact that CPS would take a kid from any parent over that is completely wrong and should not be allowed at all. I think that you know, this, any sort of transitioning of minors, be it socially, medically, you know, irreversible damage done by surgeries of cutting off healthy body parts and giving kids hormones and puberty blockers that sterilize them and cause all sorts of problems for life, as well as you know, there shouldn't be any boys and girls sports at all or spaces. All of that needs to end. I just, it's so, so wrong. It's so evil. It's truly the lobotomy, the slavery of our time. This gender madness that's being pushed on children. And, you know, I have amazing friends like Chloe Cole and Laura Bucker that have gone through it and later regretted it. and they speak out bravely and vulnerably, and I'm so proud of them. They're such amazing people, and how can you see that and still want to push this on to kids? I mean, it has to stop, and CPS has no right to take, you know, from loving parents, as you said, a kid because they don't want to go along with gender delusions. This is not okay.
Stephanie Winn: Speaking of your activism and the friends you've made since you've been telling this story, I'm imagining you've met parents who've dealt with or thought about dealing with the legal system who have been in much different circumstances from yourself. What can you say about their experiences?
Harrison Tinsley: except one. Every parent I know that's opposed to gender ideology has lost custody almost entirely or, or entirely. I mean, the best examples being, you know, Adam Vina, and Jeff Younger, you know, save Aidan Singh, save James, what's happening to them is horrible and tragic, and should never happen to a parent. They're not allowed to see their sons. Their sons are being transitioned, you know, socially for Adam's case, and Jeff Younger's case, they're about to start sterilizing his son, I think 11 years old or very close to it. And it's wrong. And I really hope that we can just put a stop to it and save those kids, save parents. And there's so many others that reach out to me. Some don't want to go public. It's usually dads, but I do actually know a mom or two that is the one trying to protect the kid from the gender madness. And it's just really unfortunate that our family courts seem to have such a political bias, particularly with the gender stuff, that they're taking custody away from safe parents over it.
Stephanie Winn: Many of you listening to this show are concerned about an adolescent or young adult you care about who's caught up in the gender insanity and therefore at risk of medical self-destruction. I developed ROGD Repair as a resource for parents just like you. It's a self-paced online course and community that will teach you the psychology concept and communication tools the families I've consulted with have found most helpful in understanding and getting through to their children, even when they're adults. Visit ROGDRepair.com to learn more about the program and use promo code SUMTHERAPIST2025 at checkout to take 50% off your first month. That's ROGDRepair.com. So this is a real, I mean, you use the word evil and I actually agree with you and I feel like I don't need to understand someone's entire religious or cosmological viewpoint in order to use words like evil. I have had certain listeners in my podcast ask me not to use that term because they find it alienating as like ex-religious or ex-cult-involved people. But I think there's no better way to describe it and I talked about this in my episode. I had a solo episode called The Nature of the Beast of Gender Ideology and I made this episode in reaction to gender critical activists turning on me, which like friendly fire has always been the hardest part for me of being a gender critical activist is when like fellow activists turn on me because it's the unexpected and the hurtful. But I talked about this is the beast we're fighting, right? The nature of evil is that it punishes. Evil wants to punish eternally and harshly for our innocent mistakes. Being innocently mistaken about who you are when you're 13 years old is not something that you should have lifelong medical problems as a result of. So, I very much agree with you on that. You know, I wish that, because I think your story on the surface, like if you give like a one-line summary of like who is Harrison and what is his story, it's, you know, dad who successfully navigated the court system to protect his kid from gender ideology. But when you look a few layers down, it's like, it's because of all these other things that you won. And that is an evil conundrum in itself that if we were to look for like another parent who we wanted to win in this situation, what would have to happen for them to win? Well, the other parent would have to be abusive. Or unstable to the degree of having major drug and alcohol problems multiple arrests, you know things like that Right, and nobody wants to wish that upon their child or anyone's child. You don't you don't want for the parent you're in conflict with to be that badly off and that dangerous to their child just to get the court to believe that maybe you're the better fit. So it really is a pretty depressing situation even though like your story ultimately is a victorious and hopeful one and hopefully like you know, moving forward now that your son is with you full time, he's in good hands and you can create as much stability and happiness in his life as possible. But I'm like looking for like what is the silver lining that we can say to other people who are thinking about navigating the court system because I do know a lot of people I've now been asked to be part of court cases. I usually decline, you know, I'm happy to like have an advisory relationship with lawyers behind the scenes and in terms of my consulting role if there are people I can introduce them to or a perspective on a matter that I can share. I don't really want to like be in court myself though. But I do hear from people who are going to court or who are thinking about it. And it just seems like a really depressing situation out there. So when you say that every parent you know who is trying to protect their kid in the court system has lost, I mean, are we talking like places like California here? Or is this happening even in more conservative places?
Harrison Tinsley: Everywhere.
Stephanie Winn: So really this is like not so much a message of hope as a warning almost to other parents.
Harrison Tinsley: I mean, it's both because there's a chance and there's always a chance. And the reality is, sure, I'm the lucky one and I'm extremely grateful. And so every parent out there, Adam, Jeff, everyone, just know I don't take it for granted at all. You know, I savor every moment with Sawyer. I'm so thankful and I'm so sorry that these other parents don't get to be with their kids. I know what it was like. I had it for 15 months. My son out there not even knowing I exist, but I don't take it for granted and I'm not going to stop fighting for you guys, for anyone. This is wrong. And to touch on the nature of evil, I mean, no one in history that did the greatest evil atrocities that have happened believed they were doing evil. They believed they were doing good. It doesn't matter what you believe you're doing. What matters is the result. The result is these kids are being sterilized. These kids are being taken from safe parents. It's not okay. It needs to stop. It needs to be classified as child abuse or something to that extent. I'm really hoping that, you know, the new administration will outlaw this completely and we could start holding parents and doctors that continue to do it accountable. But the reality is that no matter what the odds are, no matter what I know for me, no matter what the odds were, I never cared. I had lots of people tell me to give up before I even met Sawyer. It never mattered if I had a 1% chance or anything. Just never tell me the odds. I'm going to try anyways. Whether your ex is abusive or a druggie or whatever different problems they may or may not have that could help you in family court, it doesn't matter. The reality is, is that you have to try. You have to fight. We have a duty as parents, as people, to protect the most vulnerable, to protect children, and you particularly have a duty to your own children. So you have to try to protect them from gender ideology or from whatever danger they're in with all your heart and soul, no matter what the odds, no matter what the cost, no matter what the sacrifice, no matter what people are going to say about you, try to cancel you, You have to be all in. You just give it your all, love your kid with all your heart, and you'll be grateful that you tried, and you'll be able to look your kids in the eyes and say that you did everything you could for them.
SPEAKER_01: How are you doing? You seem kind of choked up.
Harrison Tinsley: I love it. It feels good. I feel overwhelmingly passionate that this gender ideology is evil and it's hurting children and that safe parents are for no good reason not seeing their kids. And it feels good to feel something and to be a part of something that matters because I do think this is our, the war of our time is this war on children.
Stephanie Winn: You and I are coming from different perspectives, different life experiences. You know, you have a very young child who clearly had an emotionally unstable mom who had her own personal egocentric investment in this ideology and what it meant to her in a way that obviously clashed with your son. I'd like to think a case like yours would be straightforward and still it took years. Where I'm coming from, I talk to parents of much older kids and it's parents who never wished to affirm. Some may have made various compromises. You know, sometimes parents come to me having already reluctantly agreed to something that they want to walk back, whether it's, you know, letting their daughter use a binder or compromising on they pronouns or things like this. And sometimes I talk to parents even further along parents who you know, walked with their adult children through surgeries that have already taken place. So I'm meeting parents in a different place in life, different relationship to their kids, gender identity issues. I'm not a lawyer, right? I'm coming at it from the perspective of being a therapist and taking a break from therapy to do consulting just so I can speak very frankly with people about these issues. Not to diagnose them, not to form a treatment plan, not to make it all about the parent, but to have a parent who's worried as heck about their kid be able to come to me and for us to just be able to speak freely and frankly and constructively about this issue. I do that as a consultant. but my background is psychology. So I'm thinking about the psychology of these things. From that perspective, not from a legal perspective, I don't know that dealing with the legal system is always the most advisable path. And you're bringing one reason why, right? It's like, unless you have an overwhelming amount of evidence against the other parent from a safety perspective, I mean, we'd like to think that the gender issue would be seen as a safety issue, but it's not in a court. So it has to be other safety issues, substance abuse, violence, neglect, right? Unless you have those things working in your favor, the court system may not work out for you. But I think parents of teenagers have to weigh like how will these choices affect their relationship and their kids openness to them? Because at that point, it's all about your ability to influence them. What leverage you have, the strength of that relationship. And even if a parent can use control or the law or any of these other things in their favor for a short period of time, it's only a matter of months or years until that kid is legally an adult. And barring any changes to what adults can legally get doctors to do to them in this country, they're gonna be able to do what they want at some point, right? So you have to think strategically about how is our relationship influencing them? So I don't know that I would recommend going to court to a lot of families if it's potentially going to reinforce their kid's animosity toward them or their sense that my parent is trying to control me or whatever the pre-existing narrative is. And that's just coming from, again, my perspective, my life experiences, what I do for a living. And I'm curious, from your perspective, you know, I mean, because I hear on the one hand, it's like, we got to keep fighting, right? And you and you've gone and testified to make sure that voices like yours are being heard. But like, when would you recommend that a parent involved the legal system? And when would you maybe not?
Harrison Tinsley: Well, I guess when I'm thinking about it the way you asked me, it seems like most of these people are already in that situation. You know, they got divorced or there was a custody dispute already. Um, so I guess I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me. I would tend to agree that there's probably situations where it's not worth involving the corrupt legal system for sure. But, um, I think there's a, most of the time to the relevance of our conversation, I believe we've been talking about where you don't really have a choice. As opposed to just giving up and I don't think you should ever give up. I don't think you should ever Affirm a delusion. It's not loving or compassionate to affirm a delusion. We never Affirm someone's you know anorexia and Have your skinny daughter son not eat dinner and tell them like yeah, you're fat don't eat dinner when they're skin and bones and I We don't want to eat dinner. We never affirm schizophrenia. We never affirm our kids wanting to be Spider-Man. We don't take them to buildings and let them swing off. We don't affirm them wanting to be pirates and poke their eye out and cut their leg off. You know, like this is insane. This is the only thing we're affirming something that we all know is wrong. The majority of people know this isn't right. This isn't real. Even in the Bay Area where I live, most people see this for what it is. And yeah, the legal system can be tough. If you have the opportunity not to, you know, involve them, I think that's great. But if you have no choice, I think you have to give it all you got.
Stephanie Winn: So you just said in the Bay Area, most people see this for what it is. So part of what informs you is that you have spoken up in situations where it felt risky, where you didn't know how you were going to be received. It seems like part of the reward that you've gotten for your courage, because I believe nature rewards courage, is that you've had the opportunity to find out how people actually think about this around you, whereas maybe there have been others who are concerned about this issue who didn't take those same chances and didn't find out. So what can you tell us, given that you've really put yourself out there and risked these conversations. What have you discovered that has led you to say things like, in the Bay Area, most people see through this?
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, you know, I just have the courage to bring it up in conversation. And I also see at the Capitol countless people saying, I'm a lifelong Democrat and I oppose this bill. I'm a lesbian, whatever, from San Francisco and I oppose this bill. And I think that's great, you know? I think that this isn't a right or left issue. This is a common sense people, protector of children, lover of humanity. We should all come together as one to fight against this. These are children we're talking about. Yeah, you know people at this point it's not uncommon for people to maybe know who I am or if they know me know about my situation in the story, so It it will get brought up, but I also Will ask other parents and stuff and they usually think it's completely insane and irrational the transgender stuff even again like when they're a total Democrat shouldn't matter for this issue, but I everyone I meet seems to just think it's wrong and insane. And yet, most people are too scared to speak out.
Stephanie Winn: So I want to maybe shift toward how to have those conversations because There's something I'm getting kind of an inkling of that I think might be a key for people in having these conversations. And I think it has to do with levity and ease, which is like a really strange thing for me to say when we're talking about such serious issues, especially with like what happened to your son. But I remember, you know, you and I had this podcast scheduled for right after AmFest. And I remember seeing Laura Becker, a mutual friend of ours, posting on X about how Harrison Tinsley is like not only a champion for kids, but he's also just a really chill dude. She said something like that. And then as I was meeting you today, I was like, oh, he's got surfer vibes. And there's something that I've been thinking about a lot lately. So right now when we're recording this, it's towards the end of 2024. And by the time we release it, it'll be early 2025. And I will have released an episode by then about some of my intentions for the new year. So I don't know. I might talk about this before. I had this intention of learning how to have a spirit of levity and ease around some of these really, these conversations that can feel so heavy. And I think that's, you know, both for my own well-being, as well as to affect like how these things get received. And I remember I was at a dinner party recently, or no, more like a holiday party that we were hosting. And there's a certain person, I won't name her because I didn't ask for her permission, but there's a certain pediatrician in my community who's opposed to gender ideology. And she was at a holiday party of ours, but so were some of the kids' friends and their families who have no idea. what I do for a living or what my reputation is as a niche internet micro-celebrity. These are just like families in a liberal area, and we're in mixed company. And I remember sitting around the snack table, and this pediatrician says something to my stepkid's friend's dad, who I have no idea what he thinks about any of this. And these are the sort of situations where like as a gender critical activist, you can start to feel kind of tense because you're like, oh, no, people are going to like discover areas of conflict. And, you know, but she just said something with so much levity. She said something like, oh, yeah, Stephanie and I know each other from dealing with the world of gender crazy. She said something like that, like it was very goofy. And just as I was walking away to go like greet someone else or something, and I remember having a tinge of like, oh no, how's this dad gonna react? And then having a moment of like, I don't care. Because we need to normalize good, normal people who attend holiday parties, you know, speaking from that gender critical perspective as if it is a normal perspective. Because it is, right? But we've just been so intimidated. into silence by this really like dominant minority of people who use all kinds of emotional manipulation tactics to silence people like us.
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, that's exactly right. And you'll just find as you start to have the courage to bring it up and be vulnerable and people really don't agree with this stuff. And I even find in real life compared to online, let's say, even when people disagree with you in real life, it's not common that people are going to act crazy towards you or say you're a bad person or something. They're actually a lot more likely, believe it or not, to just talk to you rationally and respectfully. I'm sure you'll see videos of like crazy Antifa looking people like screaming about trans rights online, but or if you have a big rally or something But in real life if you just talk to your friends and their families and your family people People actually appreciate you talking about something that matters
Stephanie Winn: Yeah, and I think so much of it too, like it's kind of almost like an art form to find balance where you know how fraught this subject can be and how unhinged people can be. And I have met people who have gotten unhinged at me in real life over this subject. It's happened, you know? But to know that that's possible and yet bring almost like a lightness and a freshness to each interaction because so much of how social interactions go is based on what you project into that space. If you generally treat people like you're happy to see them and you expect that they're going to be intelligent, kind, interesting, funny, you know, like if you project goodness into this space, you will invite that out of people. So I definitely believe that there's a certain synergy and manifestation that can happen depending on the attitude that we bring into our interactions. So it's like how to take something that is so fraught and so tense and where so much is at stake and we know that. but to like bring the right energy into interactions so that we're kind of inviting the culture to take shape in a new way. You know what I mean?
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, it totally opens it up if you have that lightness to you and laidbackness that, you know, they don't feel any sort of pressure or anything and they can just speak openly and freely. That's really important. And again, people just really appreciate it and seem to really be seeking that because I feel that everyone's just been on this trend of cancel culture where everyone's too scared to speak what they believe, to say what they believe, because they're worried people are going to be mean or disagree with them, or they're going to get canceled. And it's really refreshing nowadays, people are starving for this conversation. That's why people are listening to three hour podcast all the time. Because people are starving for this sort of interaction, this real deep, genuine connection. So we need to continue to do that. And I'm really glad to hear that you're doing that. I'm glad that I'm doing that. And more people need to do that. And I just think we're trending in such an amazing direction as a country, as a society, as a culture right now. I really feel that we have this momentum of pushing back against this genderness and this cancel culture, this woke mind virus. And we have the high ground and love and miracle frequency and truth is going to win.
Stephanie Winn: Do you have any tips for those who are listening who are thinking, wow, that sounds good. I wish that I, I wish I could approach things the way Harrison does or the way Stephanie does like any like opening lines or, you know, like phrases you've used to kind of like test the waters and feel out where someone stands on this issue or.
Harrison Tinsley: Well, I'm Mr. Brightside, so I'm always optimistic, but. I think you just have to find that inner courage and just try and see where it takes you.
Stephanie Winn: Did you see that Slate article that was going around that was like about I don't remember what it was called, but it was basically about woke becoming out of fashion and how it is happening, but it's also kind of our job to make sure that the memo is getting passed along, that we're acting like woke is out of fashion because it sends a certain social signal and we're social creatures. And so much of human behavior is just kind of shaped by following the trends.
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, absolutely. I think it is becoming out of fashion. And I think that's extremely helpful for society, positive for society. And we need to keep pushing back so that it keeps getting more and more, you know, less trendy. And you'll see less kids being transitioned, you're going to see less DEI and big companies. And I'm thankful that some of them get exposed and people push back and then they cancel their DEI agendas. You know, it seems to me that, you know, the gender thing is such a big deal that I believe it helped in the swing states for Trump to win as an example. I think that a lot of people that are just normal Americans that don't really care about right or left. that was an issue that mattered to them because it's children. And that because it's so insane, it's the most basic, beautiful truth we have is the difference between men and women. And it's just blurring that has shown to be toxic to cause damage. And it's better to just embrace reality and with love and truth. And, you know, embrace being the way God created you, the universe or whatever you believe. It's just It's wonderful. There's nothing good about pretending to be something you're not. Everyone knows that too. We already all know that when you put on a front, like maybe more as like your persona, people will acknowledge that that's not right and that's not a good way to live. This is no different. You're putting on a front. You're trying to pretend that you're something you're not. Just in this case, physically.
Stephanie Winn: Circling back to your custody situation, so does Sawyer ever see his mom anymore?
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, he gets to see his mom, just not alone or overnight.
Stephanie Winn: So he gets supervised visitation. monitored, but it's similar. And how's he doing with the adjustment? Because you said that not only was he not able to see you for the first 15 months, but he was also told really negative things about you. So how have you noticed him adjusting to being with, you know, dad now and maybe missing mom. I'm sure he has a lot of mixed feelings toward his mom.
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, he's thriving. He's doing amazing. He's just a happy, you know, like masculine little boy that is just he just kind of has everything going for him. It's incredible to see like he's He's just physically adept and spar and happy. And sometimes he'll ask me like, why doesn't he see his mom? But he knows why he knows directly. It's because that exact incident is completely aware of that. So, you know, I just tell him, Oh, well, you're with that always to make sure you're safe. And that's about as far as that goes. And He doesn't seem to have any particular or like mental problems from it or trauma. He seems to have really adapted and adjusted. Maybe that's partly because he was going back and forth so much before and had to deal with it already. But he's really just thriving with a good routine and safe, stable environment. And it's just amazing to see and I'm so, so thankful.
Stephanie Winn: And is he in kindergarten now?
Harrison Tinsley: He's in preschool. He goes to a non-woke preschool right now.
Stephanie Winn: Oh. So what are your thoughts on education moving forward?
Harrison Tinsley: I'd like to see education reform. I'd like to see more parents homeschool. And I think as more parents homeschool, they'll be forced to do education reform. I'm hearing chatter of them potentially, you know, transforming that Department of Education federally anyways, which I think would be great. I think that unfortunately, a lot of teachers have been captured by propaganda and the ones that aren't are too afraid to say anything. So I think our kids are starting to really get taught just to obey as opposed to critically think. And I don't think that's good for them. I think it's better to critically think. And that's why I'm thankful that Sawyer's just like me in this way, but I was always a rebel. So even though I'm from the Bay Area, I was always doing the opposite of what they said anyway, so it wasn't hard to, I guess, go against the narrative on a lot of these things.
Stephanie Winn: So you've been pretty busy with activism the past few years, because you started telling your story, and you've done podcasts, and you've gone to AmFest and stuff like that. What's ahead for you?
Harrison Tinsley: I'm looking into starting my own podcast. I'm starting this nonprofit called Courage for Kids to help parents in the legal system, particularly with the gender stuff going on. I'm also part of that army and our duty and all these incredible groups. And I just plan to keep fighting to shape a future for America that I think would be best for the children. And I plan on doing everything I can to protect kids. I think it's the most important thing we can do and that we have a really have a duty responsibility to protect the most vulnerable and innocent amongst us.
Stephanie Winn: Very exciting, well, congratulations on all that. I wish you luck if you do decide to start a podcast, let me know if you need a producer.
Harrison Tinsley: Yeah, you should come on too.
Stephanie Winn: Oh yeah, of course I'd come on your show. Yeah, well, gosh, are there any loose threads, anything that you wanted to circle back to or should we wrap it up here?
Harrison Tinsley: The final thing I'll say is, anyone who watches this, The moment in history, the time is right now where we end this war on children, where we stop sterilizing kids, where we stop hurting kids, and we protect them. And you have a choice right now to be looked back upon in history from your own kids and grandkids as someone who went along with the evil or someone who stood up to it. So you better make a choice and think about how you want to be remembered. You need to dig deep in your soul, find your inner strength, your inner courage, and start to fight for what matters and for the truth because we're winning this war on children, this war on truth. And I really hope that more people will continue to start waking up and speaking out because it really makes a difference. Every single person that speaks up makes a difference.
Stephanie Winn: Beautiful. Well, we'll leave it there. So where can people find you?
Harrison Tinsley: I'm Harrison Tinsley on everything.
Stephanie Winn: Okay, easy enough, and I'll include any links in the show notes. All right, Harrison, thank you for joining me. It's been a pleasure.
Harrison Tinsley: Thank you so much, Stephanie.
Stephanie Winn: Thank you for listening to You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy, and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Pecoraro for this awesome theme song, Half Awake, and to Pods by Nick for production. For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents, ROGD Repair. Any resource you heard mentioned on this show, plus how to get in touch with me, can all be found in the notes and links below. Rain or shine, I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today. In the words of Max Ehrman, with all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.