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An anti-fascist spy handed American officials evidence of murderous intent from a Nazi planning server — and they declined to act.
About the Guest
About the Guest
Christopher Mathias is a journalist covering the far right, formerly a senior reporter at HuffPost, with work appearing in The Guardian, The Nation, MSNBC, Zeteo, and WNYC. His reporting has helped unmask white supremacist cops, soldiers, teachers, and politicians, and he was a Deadline Awards finalist for feature writing. He is originally from Gettysburg, Pennsylvania and lives in New York. His new book, To Catch a Fascist: The Fight to Expose the Radical Right (Atria Books), is out now.
About the Episode
Days after Jonathan Rauch’s influential Atlantic essay announced he’d moved from fascism skeptic to fascism believer, Christopher Mathias joins the show to discuss his new book — a deeply reported investigation into the decentralized network of anti-fascist activists who infiltrate, monitor, and expose neo-Nazis and white supremacists operating in positions of power across America.
The conversation quickly moves beyond whether Trump is a fascist to the harder questions his book raises: Who gets to decide who is exposed? What rights to privacy do members of extremist groups retain? Is unmasking community self-defense or vigilantism? And does the same logic that justifies exposing a neo-Nazi EMT extend to the tens of thousands of ICE agents now conducting raids on American streets?
Timeline
Timeline
01:45 The Greenville Moment
When Mathias first used “fascist” in a headline after watching Trump whip a crowd into chanting “Send her back”
When Mathias first used “fascist” in a headline after watching Trump whip a crowd into chanting “Send her back”
02:40 Defining the F-Word
Fascism as a right-wing politics of domination; Langston Hughes recognizing it in the 1930s before the word arrived
Fascism as a right-wing politics of domination; Langston Hughes recognizing it in the 1930s before the word arrived
04:15 The Hard Question
If MAGA is a fascist movement, are the 70-plus million who voted for Trump fascists too?
If MAGA is a fascist movement, are the 70-plus million who voted for Trump fascists too?
05:55 The Worst of the Worst
Why the book targets explicit neo-Nazis in positions of power, not ordinary Trump supporters
Why the book targets explicit neo-Nazis in positions of power, not ordinary Trump supporters
08:15 Who Decides?
Privacy, accountability, and whether everyone at Charlottesville deserves exposure
Privacy, accountability, and whether everyone at Charlottesville deserves exposure
12:30 The Equivalence Trap
Why Mathias rejects the idea that this is just radicals exposing radicals
Why Mathias rejects the idea that this is just radicals exposing radicals
19:40 “Just Following Orders”
Why some orders shouldn’t be followed, and the occupation of Minneapolis
Why some orders shouldn’t be followed, and the occupation of Minneapolis
21:30 The Battle Over Shame
Competing databases, surveillance, and what America should be ashamed of
Competing databases, surveillance, and what America should be ashamed of
23:15 The Spy Who Warned Charlottesville
An infiltrator uncovers plans for violence that officials ignore
An infiltrator uncovers plans for violence that officials ignore
30:30 Closing
Fascism as a snake eating its own tail and the urgent task of limiting the damage
Fascism as a snake eating its own tail and the urgent task of limiting the damage
Links & References
Mentioned in this episode:
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Creators and Guests
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Hello, my name is Andrew Keen.
Welcome to Keen on America, the Daily Show
about everything that matters with the
world's leading commentators and thinkers.
Hello everybody.
It is Wednesday, the 4th of February 20,
26, few days ago, and an old friend of
the show, John Roush, had an influential
essay on the Atlantic in which he
announced he used to be a fascism skeptic.
And, uh, when it comes to the
Trump regime, at least he believes
that yes, it is indeed fascism.
So, uh, uh, Donald Trump is indeed.
August Company of Adolf Hitler and Benito
Mussolini Elise, according to John.
Uh, and I'm gonna try and get John back on
the show actually to talk more about it.
Uh, yesterday an interesting new
book came out on the F word too.
It's called to Catch a Fascist, uh,
the Fight to Expose the radical right.
It's by my guest today, Christopher
Mathias uh, Chris, um, I'm
assuming you're in the Roche camp,
although I'm guessing also that
you were never much of a skeptic.
Did you always believe
that Trump was a fascist?
Yeah.
You know, I think, um, I
think he certainly had those
characteristics from the jump.
Um, I think as a journalist, I
probably didn't use the term myself
in a headline until 20, uh, 18, 20 19.
Um, it was actually a very
specific, uh, scenario.
I covered a Trump rally in Greenville,
North Carolina, where I saw.
The president, uh, whip the crowd into a
frenzy, uh, over Ilhan Omar, and, uh, get
the entire crowd to chant, send her back.
Um, and, uh, I, I ended up writing an
article immediately afterwards called
a Fascist Trump rally in Greenville.
Uh, dur in which I, I kind of emailed
a bunch of different scholars of
fascism to ask for their take.
Um, and yeah, so I guess I've
been in the call using the f
word camp for for a minute.
So what, for you, I don't
want to turn this into a, a
scholastic discussion of fascism.
Sure.
Everyone has different definitions, but
what for you distinguishes a fascist from.
A conservative or just a reactionary?
Yeah.
You know, um.
I guess it's, it's always a little
tricky 'cause um, the, the way I kind
of define fascism in the book, and
it's kind of like my working definition
obviously, um, but is kind of like a,
a right wing politics of domination
that sit situates a particular subgroup
of people above a social hierarchy
and then targets already marginalized
groups for expulsion and, and death.
Um, all in this effort to kind of, you
know, quote, purify or cleanse a, a nation
to restore it to some mythical, uh, past
of cultural and, and ethnic homogeneity.
Um, and I think, you know.
You could all, I think throughout, uh,
the history of conservatism in America,
it's always, you know, danced around
the edges of explicit, uh, fascism.
And, and I think, you know,
something I try to get at in the
book is that, um, in a way, um.
Fascism was in America before,
you know, we called it fascism.
Um, Langston Hughes, uh, speaking at this
writer's conference in the 1930s famously
said like, you don't need to tell, uh,
the black man in America about fascism.
We've, we, we are familiar
with, uh, Nordic supremacy.
Um, and its, and its, uh, trials.
Um, so.
I think when it comes to Trump and, and
more recently using the F word, um, I
think he basically took kind of a lot
of maybe implicit or dog whistling,
um, you know, racism, am bigotry and
just made it that much more explicit.
Um, and I think just exhibited, um, a lot
of the characteristics that, um, I felt
made him a fascist, and especially in the
second administration and like your, uh.
Friend, friend of the show
wrote in the Atlantic.
Um, I think the, the
evidence is just everywhere.
Now.
The original fascist, of course, Mussolini
made the term up fascism, uh, Hitler,
they were at one point, at least in their
political careers, extremely popular.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, Trump seems to have
some degree of popularity.
At least he won the last election.
Uh, in your view, if
you believe that Trump.
And his inner circle of fascists, does
that make people who voted for him or
the majority of people who voted for
him, does that make them fascists too?
You know, that's a, that's
an interesting question.
I think, um, I would certainly
characterize MAGA at this point
as a, as a fascist movement.
Um, and I think, um, it is something
we should come to terms with.
Um, you mean the like kind of explicit.
Uh, racism not only in the last campaign,
but uh, of this current administration
is just so blatant and over the top.
Um, I, um, I, you know, whether or not.
It's interesting the way we use the
word 'cause I don't think anyone in the
Trump administration would necessarily
self-identify as a fascist, even
though there was that hilarious moment
with, uh, Zohran Mamdani in, uh,
the White House when Trump said,
you know, call, call me a fascist.
It's fine.
Um, uh, but.
You know, as for calling individual
Trump supporters, fascists.
So I, I don't know.
I mean, I think they're, I think
they're swept, they're mixed up
in something fascist for sure.
Um, you know, this is kind of a
distinction I make in the book, right?
'cause the book is about anti-fascist
activists, um, who target, um.
You know, what they see as fascist
groups, um, for, you know, confrontation,
for, uh, espionage, for research,
for kind of unmasking members of,
of fa of secretive fascist groups.
Um, but you know, there.
They're identifying these people, they're
unmasking these people and calling them
fascists, calling them Nazis, but they're
not, you know, going to Trump rallies and
I identifying Trump supporters as fascists
or, you know, doxing them, exposing them.
Um, you know, they're kind of
targeting the worst of the worst.
Um, so yeah, I don't know.
I, I think it's an interest.
Interesting question.
I'm not sure if you given it,
it's an interesting question.
I'm not sure if you fully answered it.
Um,
okay.
What, what, what, what would, what
would be your, your take on that?
Well, I mean, of the, I don't know,
however many million, 70, I don't
know, 70, 80 million, a hundred million
peop Americans who voted for Trump.
Mm-hmm.
Of those who, who, I mean, what a number
of approximately 20, 30, 50% are fascists.
I mean, it's an important
question for better or worse.
I mean, I, I, I know it's
a hard one to answer.
Yeah.
It's just, I, I mean, yeah, I don't know.
It's, there's a lot to parse there, you
know, I mean, like, uh, in, um, during
the civil rights era, um, or I mean, if
you go further back, I don't know, like
during reconstruction in America, um.
Like,
could you arguably call?
Um, I don't, I don't
know what I'm getting at.
I just, I just think it's, it's,
it's a really hard thing to parse.
Um, I think, uh, yes, I think
they're part of a fascist movement.
I don't know, um, if I would
call them in particular.
Each and every Trump
supporter are fascist.
I mean, the reason I ask Chris
is because your book is about the
fight to expose the radical, right?
And in part, I guess it's a kind of an
exercise in, in doxing, uh, yeah, fascism.
I mean, if there are 40 or 50 or 70 or
a hundred million in Americans who voted
for Trump, should they all be exposed?
Should there be some sort of,
sort of the, like the Vietnam.
Uh, in Washington DC should there
be a big wall or should there
eventually be a big wall somewhere
where these people are identified
in terms of their support for Trump?
Is that what you are arguing?
And to catch a fascist, who's
to to determine who gets to
be exposed and who doesn't?
That's my question.
Sure.
Yeah.
That's not what the book
is arguing whatsoever.
Um, that is, this is, have
you read the book, Andrew?
Yes.
I've looked at it.
You've looked at it.
Sure.
Okay.
So the book is, um, you know.
Basically about anti-fascist group, this
kind of de antifa, you know, commonly
the way we commonly call it, uh, the
kind of this decentralized underground
network of anarchists and, and socialists
who, um, you know, don't trust.
The state or law enforcement to combat,
um, fascists in their communities.
Um, so they do the work themselves and
the large part of the work they're doing
is exposing, you know, very explicit
neo-Nazis and white supremacists.
These are members of groups like Identity
Europa and Patriot Front, and a lot of
the Nazis that marched in Charlottesville.
Um, and they are doing the work to uncover
the identities of, of these people,
um, and, you know, often revealing them
to be, um, men in positions of power.
Um, and the idea of that is to kind
of hold these people accountable is to
say if you, for example, are, you know,
one of the stories, uh, is about a, uh,
Nazi EMT who runs a, one of the most.
Popular neo-Nazi podcast in the country
called The Daily Showa, the Showa, of
course, being a, a word for the Holocaust.
Um, and he is working as a
paramedic as an EMT in Virginia.
Uh, on that podcast, he makes
explicit references and stories to
treating black patients differently.
Anti-fascists expose this and
becomes a, a story, and he.
Gets fired.
Um, there's another story, for
example, of a neo-Nazi, a member of
a group called Identity Aropa, which
is very explicit about wanting to
expel non-white people from America.
Um, and.
He, uh, is in Charlottesville.
He's the security guard for Richard
Spencer, who's kind of the, um,
you know, poster boy of the, of
the so-called alt-right in 2017.
Um, and then he goes back to Massachusetts
afterwards that, um, and he goes
back to his job as a police officer,
anti-fascist, figure out who he is.
Uh, they publish a, a docs or
a story if you, if you will.
Um, and he, you know, basically
resigns before he is fired.
So.
From this perspective, this type of
anti-fascist work is a form of community
self-defense and accountability.
And it's a way of kind of creating
a social cost for being, you
know, part of a, a fascist group.
It's, it's kind of a way of saying
like, yeah, you can join those
groups if you want to, but, um, you
know, you don't get to wear a mask.
We're gonna figure out who you are
and, and hold you accountable for it.
The book, um.
As you say is sympathetic to that
aspect of the, the Antifa movement.
Um, and you, you know, in an interesting
piece in the, in the nation that not,
not all liberals are, are comfortable
with that work of exposing people.
What rights then do these
individuals have when it comes to
privacy, when should and shouldn't?
Antifa have the right
to expose these people.
Uh, you talked about, we've
done shows on Charlottesville.
Should everyone who showed up for
that rally in Charlottesville,
should they be exposed?
Should they lose their jobs?
Should they be humiliated?
Um, yeah, it's an interesting question.
I think, um, you know, one of the.
Groups I profile in the book,
um, is is a group of anti-fascist
researchers called Ignite The Right.
Um, ignite the Right is dedicated
to doing exactly what you just
said is to identifying and exposing
everyone that was in Charlottesville.
Um, and you know, I
was in Charlottesville.
I covered it as a reporter.
Um, and.
You know, I do not see, um, a way in
which you attended that rally without,
um, or participated in that rally
without being an explicit neo-Nazi.
Um, it was one of the most horrible
things I've ever witnessed or experienced.
Um, you know, I interviewed
people, uh, after the car attack.
I witnessed the beating of Deandre Harris.
Um, and yes, I think if
you attended that as, um.
A member of, like a participant
in Unite the Right Rally.
Yeah.
You, you probably deserve
some accountability.
Does that mean that there isn't
a, a like room or path for
forgiveness or understanding?
No, of course not.
There, there's definitely
an avenue for that.
Um, I think one of the things I,
you know, talk about in the book,
um, is you know, this kind of, uh.
Anti-fascists will often, you know,
kind of do this thing called amnesty
where, you know, they, if, if you're
a Nazi and you're participating in
something, but you've left the movement
behind you, but you, you know, you might
be exposed, you'll often go to these
anti-fascists and be like, listen, I left
these movement, this movement behind me.
And, and anti-fascists will be like,
okay, yeah, well we won't do anything.
You know, like, you know,
we, we'll be honest though.
Like if we see you mixed
up in this again, we might.
You know, post something.
Um, so it's, I think it's just a
method of, of, um, accountability.
What about the accountability
though of, of Antifa?
I mean, who, who is to determine
who's on these boards and who is
exposing who it sounds to me, or
to some liberals at least, it might
sound as if, as a degree of moral.
Equivalency here of one group of radicals
exposing another group for being evil.
I, I'm guessing that right wing radicals
would probably have panels or groups
or committers doing the same thing.
Yeah, no, totally.
And, and um, you know, I think a lot
of people will make that equivalency.
Um, uh, you know.
There is no board or leadership
or headquarters for Antifa de
despite what, um, the Trump
administration, you know, might say.
Um, it is typically, you know,
decisions are arrived at locally and,
and democratically and tediously.
Um.
And, you know, that's not to say
they get it right every time.
Um, uh, I do think that there is a
big, I, you know, I, I will personally
argue that there's not an equivalency
between kind of right wing doxing and
the, the doxing I describe in the book.
Um, you know, I think, um, you know.
I am in support of unmasking and
identifying, uh, fascists in, in
my community and, um, would rather
it not go the other way around.
You wrote an interesting piece, uh,
last week in The Guardian about Antifa
unmasking, uh, not just neo-Nazis,
but now members of, uh, ice, uh,
the group of course, who very much
in the news, in involved in there.
Uh, in their violence on
the streets of Minneapolis.
Um, sh lots of debate about whether or not
ICE agents or people who are working for
ICE should have the right to anonymity.
What do you argue, uh, Chris in
the book on catching a fascist
in terms of ice in your view is
everyone who works for ICE a fascist.
You see, this is a, this is a kind
of a, a distinction in terms that I
think I don't, you know, get caught up
in, like, I'm not identify, like I, I
think it's worthy, uh, completely to
identify the people in ICE right now.
I think what ICE is doing right
now is reprehensible, and I think
it's, um, part of a. Pretty explicit
project of ethnic cleansing.
And I think it, you know, in, in my
personal opinion, I think it meets every
def definition of a fascist project.
Um.
Now does, um, each individual,
am I, you know, does each ice
agent, are they a fascist?
Um, you know, I don't know that
they think of it consciously in
that way or self-identify that way,
but what I would say is that they
are involved in a fascist project.
Um, and I also think that they are,
you know, kind of publicly funded.
Um.
Uh, you know, employees of, of
the state, they're like kind
of public officials in a way.
Um, and that typically, you know,
police aren't masked and they
have to identify themselves.
Um, and so I think it's a very kind
of scary escalation that the people
doing this, um, are wearing masks.
And I think, I think the reason,
you know, uh, thank you for
bringing up the Guardian article.
You know, I think, um.
Someone I interview in that
says that the um reason.
Um, that ice wear wears masks
is 'cause they know what they're
doing is, is unpopular or, you
know, that it, um, might be wrong.
Um, and I, and I think there's
some, some truth to that.
Um, and you know, I also just say I
think it's really interesting, and
this is something I try to, uh, bring
up in the book, is that, you know,
throughout the history of American.
White supremacy, um, and
specifically masked white supremacy.
Um, you know, you wear a mask in
hopes of creating a world in which
you won't need a mask at all.
Um, the, the first Klan wears a mask to
kind of terrorize black people in the
south and to overthrow reconstruction
to destroy the gains that, uh, recently
freed black people have, have gained.
When, when reconstruction is abandoned,
um, you know, the Klan is isn't really
needed anymore and it kind of disbands.
That's part of the reason it disbands.
Um, they kind of, you know.
Trade the anonymity of the hood
for the anonymity of the lynch mob.
Um, and I think it's, uh, important and to
consider the world, a world in which ICE
agents, um, are comfortable carrying out
what they're doing, uh, without a mask.
Um, and um, yeah, I think.
That's the reason as the, um, the Guardian
article you brought up, uh, you know,
mentions is that anti-fascists have,
uh, you know, kind of changed their
targets and are identifying ice agents
in Minneapolis and, and elsewhere.
The article also, uh, quotes, uh, people
who argue that you need to identify all.
Ice and, and DHS officers, that's the
homeland security, uh, department.
Those are many thousands of people.
Chris isn't, aren't there?
I mean, how, how is, firstly,
how's that gonna work?
And secondly,
it's, it's, it's, it's, it's targeting.
I, I think.
I think you might be misreading.
I think it's targeting border patrol
agents active in the missions in
Minneapolis on the streets to kind
of abduct people off the street.
There are many thousands of those.
Uh, I mean they're not just on the street,
they're on the streets of Los Angeles.
They're on the border,
there are in Minneapolis.
Who knows where else they are.
There are,
mm-hmm.
Many thousands of these agents.
Are you suggesting in the book that.
Uh, leaving aside the F word that
they should all be somehow exposed,
that everyone should know what
they're doing and shamed, essentially.
Um, so the, the book was written before
the current kind of escalation of, of ice.
Um, so I don't make an
argument about that,
although I'm guessing that this
doesn't necessarily surprise you what's
happened on the streets of Minneapolis.
No, not at all.
I mean, I think it is,
um, exactly what, um.
MAGA and, and Trump have promised to do.
I mean, if you're going to promise
to Massport, uh, millions and
millions and millions of people, of
our neighbors and friends and and
loved ones, it's gonna look like this
and it's gonna be, um, a spectacle.
Um, you know, I think, uh.
Steven Miller, who I think a lot
of reporting suggests this is kind
of his brainchild and, and project.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you know, he is, um, steeped
in, in a kind of explicit
white supremacist literature.
Um, and, you know, he was, his emails
were leaked, um, to the Southern
Property Law Center years back, and
they showed him just kind of swimming
in these, uh, you know, waters
online of, um, you know, kind of.
Explicit great replacement talk of,
of the, the term Remi, which is really
just a euphemism for ethnic cleansing.
Um, and you know, of ado of, you
know, kind of promoting books like
Camp of Saints, which of course is
like, you know, this really kind
of racist, dystopian, uh, novel.
Um, so.
Um, no.
I mean, sadly I think like there's, um,
no, and I take your point on, on Miller.
I mean, I wouldn't argue with you
on Miller, although everybody knows
who he is, he doesn't wear a mask.
Right.
My question was about the tens of
thousands of, of ice agents who
presumably, some of them at least,
are looking for work and their.
Doing that, they're working for the
state in, in the way in which many
Americans have done historically.
Would you distinguish, I mean, is everyone
who works for ice, should they all be
exposed or is there only ice agents on
the streets or those who are violent?
How are we gonna know?
Well, I mean, that's
what, what's happening.
The, the current kind of grassroots
effort to identify ice, you know,
they're not identifying like.
Administrative people or, you know, I
think there's actually, um, there's a site
called isis, which isn't like an Antifa
project per se, but they, they make this
distinction, I think, and I think this is
what you're getting at, which is that like
they're not going to identify the people.
Working the daycare at, you know, DHS,
uh, taking care of government, employees,
kids, um, like they're, and they're
not gonna, you know, docs or unmask
the everyday employees necessarily of
DHSI think they are so far, at least
what they've done and, and what I've
detailed in the article is that they are.
Identifying people that have
taken place in, or taken part in a
particularly bad or, or brutal bits
of, uh, violence or kind of especially,
um, egregious, uh, you know, um.
Abductions or deportations, whatever,
whatever you wanna call them.
I think, you know, one of the officers
that's identified in, in my article
is someone who pepper sprayed a
protestor at point blank range.
Um, one of the, some of the other
people that they've identified were the
agents seen, uh, bringing an elderly
man, uh, out of his house, shirtless
and like zero degree temperature as
his grandchild with out the window.
Um, you know, I think they are.
Targeting, uh, those people.
Um, you know, I don't really see
them nor, nor would they necessarily
have the resources at this
point to identify, you know, the
thousands of employees of of DHS.
I think they are creating accountability
for, you know, the people committing
kind of the most egregious acts.
And, and how would you
respond to, uh, an ice agent?
I don't suppose one would
appear on this show.
Probably not show their
face certainly, but mm-hmm.
Who would simply say, well, we're
just doing our job and we we're trying
to, uh, uh, obey the rules of the
state when it comes to immigration.
Sure.
Um.
Yeah, I mean that it, it sounds
almost trite to say, but you know,
we're just doing our job sounds a
lot like we're just following orders.
Um, you know, which of course, um,
you know, I think in moments like
this, it's, it's important to say
that, you know, there are some
orders that shouldn't be followed.
Um, and what is happening, you know,
particular, particularly in Minneapolis,
um, you know, from all accounts of,
from the people living there is.
A straight up occupation.
Um, I think there's been reports, um,
uh, I think maybe in EO or elsewhere, uh,
kind of detailing, um, that morale is not
necessarily high within ICE at the moment.
Um, and I think they see that this huge
community uprising in response, um.
You know, they, they know how unpopular
they are and that they might have to
live with the shame of what they're a
part of for a while, um, you know, we're,
we're seeing the popularity of, of ice
and this project of these deportations
just kind of plummeted in the polls.
And a, a phrase like abolish ice, which,
you know, year, a few years ago, I
think was, felt like pretty radical.
Um, is reaching an all time record high,
um, even 20% of Republicans support.
Um, abolishing ICE at this point,
or support that phrase, I believe.
Um, so, um,
yeah, I'm, I'm sorry.
I, I, I forgot your
initial question, but, um,
no, I, I think you answered it.
Um,
yeah.
So for you or perhaps for the anti
Antifa group, and, and maybe this is,
this is a compelling argument, shame
is, is, is a powerful political tool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I, I think, I think that's really it.
And, um, I'm, I'm glad you put it
that way 'cause I've been thinking
a lot about it this week because
Tom Homan, of course, the, um,
the, the head of ice at the moment.
Yeah.
Um, he, uh, recently came out with
a statement where he, he tried
to kind of flip my book on, its.
Uh, on its side, right?
He said like, you know, we are, we're
filming the people that are standing
up against ICE and we're gonna create
a database and they're gonna be shamed
and they're gonna lose their jobs.
So like, there is like, you know, in
a way, I think, and I'm so glad you
phrased the question that way, Andrew.
Um, there is like, kind of this battle
over, um, shame and, and, and what
we're supposed to be ashamed of.
Um, and I think, um.
It's just a, it's a push
and, and, and a pull.
It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a real fight.
So what becomes, as I said, you've been
quite critical, I think of conventional
liberals when it comes to this stuff.
What becomes of our right to
privacy is that only people who
are moderates who have a right
to privacy or people on the left.
You know, I think the,
the argument for, um.
Unmasking, kind of straight up.
Fascist is just a form of
community self-defense.
It's to know that the people,
there are people in your community
that are explicitly calling for
violence online, that are, that
are liable, uh, to commit violence.
Um, you know, one of the
stories I tell in the book, um.
And I will, you know, admit, like
this is not like a, from the kind of
militant, anti-fascist perspective,
um, you know, they have a, uh, a
different approach to concepts of,
of freedom of speech than, than your
kind of more moderate liberal, um.
You know, one of the stories I tell
in the book is that an anti-fascist
spy goes into, um, the planning server
for the Unite the Right Rally in
Charlottesville, where all these Nazi
groups are planning, um, the event and
this spy collects reams of data, of memes
and messages, just kind of evidence of
these Nazis murderous intent for that day.
Um.
He gives them to local anti-fascists
in Charlottesville, who then give
them to the local city government,
uh, pleading with, um, you know, the
mayor, the, the council to revoke these
Nazis permit, uh, for their rally.
Um, you know, the officials
decide not to do that.
Um, uh, and of course, you know, what
happens in Charlottesville happens,
um, and I think from like the militant,
anti-fascist perspective, like.
You know, these fascists always
pose an inherent threat when
they're allowed to organize.
Um, and, um, it's a fight to,
um, you know, to stop their
violence from happening.
And, and part of that work is unmasking
them and, uh, knowing who they are,
um, you know, in the pre-internet era.
This anti-fascist work in America
in the eighties and nineties, often
involved activists like digging through
the dumpsters of like neo-Nazis houses
and fi, and finding discarded mail
and finding their real names and then
posting, you know, meet your local
Nazi posters on telephone poles.
Um, so, but back to your
original question, like who
is deserving of privacy?
Um, you know, I think we are.
All deserving of privacy.
But I think if you are actively, you
know, agitating as part of a movement
to expel a good portion of this country
for not being white, um, then it's a
matter of kind of actual community self
defense to know who those people are.
I love the title of the book.
Um.
Uh, yeah, it reminds me, of course,
uh, your book is called, uh, to Catch
a Fascist, uh, Hitchcock's 1952,
uh, or 1955 movie to Catch a Thief
with Carrie Grant and Grace Kelly.
Very different,
which, which I, which I
still haven't watched.
I I should
Oh, you haven't watched it yet.
It's, it's, it's very different.
Are you?
And it, and of course it's a
fun movie and a romantic movie.
Are you optimistic now given?
What happened on the
streets of Minneapolis?
Do you feel that the worst is over, Chris?
Yeah, you know, I, I really don't know.
I think, um, we've had so many moments
like this where, um, you know, 'cause
we did in a sense see Trump like retreat
a little bit in Minneapolis, right?
Like he dispatched with Bovino,
you know, kind of the guy in charge
that who really dressed like a Nazi.
Um, but, um.
Uh, you know, we also know that abductions
and these kind of deportations are
taking place all over right now, still
in places like Los Angeles and even
in New York, um, where I am and, um.
All I can say is that, um,
what we saw in Minneapolis, I
personally found very heartening.
Um, it was like an organic grassroots
response, uh, by the people there to say
that, you know, this is not acceptable.
Um, and it reminded me a lot
of the kind of grassroots.
Militant anti-fascist response to the
wave of fascist groups and Nazi groups
that marched on the streets of America in
2017 and 2018, where you are confronting
these people in the streets, you're
following them, you're monitoring them,
you're identifying them, you're pressuring
venues and hotels, not to host them.
Um, you know, it's just
creating a social cost.
And we, we've seen that.
All over Minneapolis.
And I think it's working and I think
it's providing a, a model of, uh,
resistance, um, for across the country.
So in, in that way, yes,
I, um, feel optimistic.
I think, you know, one of
the, uh, mantras, uh, that.
A couple mantras or axioms that
you hear in anti-fascist circles
are, uh, we protect, we protect us.
Um, and I think Minneapolis showed
that, you know, they weren't
relying on the law enforcement.
They weren't relying on the Democratic
party or their local government to
defend, uh, themselves against ice and
defend their neighbors against ice.
They, they realized that it was up to
them to defend their, their neighbors.
Um, you know, and then the other
expression you hear a lot, um.
Maybe, you know, I just have Woody
Gut three on the Mind, but is, uh, you
know, all you fascist bound to lose.
Um, and I do think, um, you
know, that fascism is ultimately
a self-destructive ideology.
'cause it constantly needs to manufacture
new targets and new subgroups to,
to scapegoat and, and eliminate.
Um, and until eventually, you
know, there's no one left, it's
kind of like eating its own.
I, I do this.
Fascist moment that this fascist
movement is bound to lose.
It's just kind of what's important right
now is to stop this movement from doing
as much destruction as as possible.
So you seem to be saying two things.
On the one hand, it's gonna eat itself,
so we could just leave it alone.
On the other hand, you seem, and, and
correct me if I'm wrong, to be suggesting
that in, in some ways these people, or
at least their views should be illegal.
So
I'm, I'm, I'm not saying
they should be illegal.
Um, I'm saying that there
should be consequences.
I think one of the analogies
that I draw in the book is,
um, let's say you're in a bar.
And a, um, guy comes in and
starts, uh, shouting racial slurs,
maybe throws up a, a Nazi salute.
Um, you, there's a recognition
that that guy poses a threat, that
he's liable to do something and
you're gonna ask him to leave.
Um, if he doesn't leave, uh, you might
for, you might force him to leave.
Um, I think.
I, I, I, I feel like your question's
kind of around freedom of speech.
Am am I correct, Andrew or?
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I think, um, there's the distinction
I think maybe I'm trying to draw here
is not like freedom of speech doesn't
mean freedom from consequences.
Um, you know, it like if you
say racist shit in a bar, you're
liable to get, get punched.
Um, and you know, I.
I don't know if that's a, a bad thing.
Uh, tomorrow we've got, uh, lawyer,
uh, Andrew Guthrie Ferguson.
He has a new book out called Your
Data Will Be Used Against You.
Are you at all concerned, Chris,
that, that the, the tactics that
you are supporting in this new book
to catch a fascist will be used by
the right against guys like yourself
or certainly members of Antifa?
Uh, sure.
Yeah.
I mean the, um, it's, uh, I mean,
it's, it is essentially, well, I think
what you're touching on is that, and
what I describe in my book is that it
is essentially an underground war of
intelligence and counterintelligence.
It's kind of an informal, uh,
uh, intelligence agencies that a
war with each other, if you will.
There, there, there definitely are far
right efforts and right-wing efforts
to identify anti-fascist activists.
Um.
And, you know, there are
websites to that effect.
Um, you know, we also saw during the,
um, uh, uprisings and the protests
against, uh, the genocide in Gaza, that
there were websites like Canary Mission
that were identifying, um, uh, you
know, members of those demonstrations.
Uh, there's a website called
Antifa Watch, uh, which claims
to identify members of Antifa.
Um, I personally have been
doxed, um, and, you know.
By doxed, I mean, um, you know,
when I, when I say dox in the
anti-fascist sense, I mean the kind
of the digital equivalent of ripping
the white hood off of a Klansman.
Um, when I say I personally was doxed,
it means, you know, my, um, phone number
and address and that of my families was
posted online and we all received death
threats and I had to file police reports.
Um, so that is definitely
already happening.
Um.
I will say that I think the
left, um, is much better and much
more careful at it as a project.
Um, the right often mis identifies
people all the time or is very
sloppy, um, sloppy with it.
Um, and you know, I think when
the right does it, they often do
it as a way of inviting, um, real
harassment and, and violence.
Um.
Uh, whereas I think, you know, a lot
of the anti-fascist docs as I described
in my book, um, you know, sometimes
they might post a Nazis address,
but most of the time they're not.
Um, so yeah.
Um, it's, it's, it's definitely
kind of already happening.
It's, it's a bit of a battle.
It certainly is a bit of a battle,
uh, interesting conversation.
The book is out.
It was out yesterday to catch a fascist.
The fight to expose the radical.
Right.
Very interesting.
And I'm gonna bring the book up when I
talk to, uh, Andrew Ferguson tomorrow.
Congratulations, Chris on the new
book and continue with your good work.
Thank you so much.
Thanks so much for having me, Andrew.
This was a pleasure.