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Kelly Leonard, Executive Director of Learning and Applied Improvisation at The Second City, joins Bill and Megan in this episode to talk about improvisation, creativity, and whether and how it can be used in conflict communication—especially in high conflict interactions.
Hosted by Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. and Megan Hunter, MBA, It’s All Your Fault! High Conflict People explores the five types of people who can ruin your life—people with high conflict personalities and how they weave themselves into our lives in romance, at work, next door, at school, places of worship, and just about everywhere, causing chaos, exhaustion, and dread for everyone else.
They are the most difficult of difficult people — some would say they’re toxic. Without them, tv shows, movies, and the news would be boring, but who wants to live that way in your own life!
Have you ever wanted to know what drives them to act this way?
In the It’s All Your Fault podcast, we’ll take you behind the scenes to understand what’s happening in the brain and illuminates why we pick HCPs as life partners, why we hire them, and how we can handle interactions and relationships with them. We break down everything you ever wanted to know about people with the 5 high conflict personality types: narcissistic, borderline, histrionic, antisocial/sociopath, and paranoid.
And we’ll give you tips on how to spot them and how to deal with them.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to, its All Your Fault On True Story fm, the one and only podcast dedicated to helping you understand and increase your effectiveness with high conflict situations. I'm Megan Hunter and I'm here with my co-host Bill Eddie. We are the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. We provide training, consultation, and educational programs to clients worldwide. In this week's episode, we are joined by Kelly Leonard, the Executive Director of Insights and Applied Improvisation at Second City Works, and author of a really cool book called Yes. And, but first a couple of notes. If you have questions about a high conflict situation, please send them to podcast high conflict institute.com or through our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast where you'll find the show notes and links as well. And please give us a ready to review and tell your friends, colleagues, or family about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We're very grateful. So let's get on with the show.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Kelly, welcome to, it's All Your Fault. I know you're a very busy guy, so thank you for taking time to chat with us today, in my opinion, is bound to be gold. We're talking about the brain and about improving communication that will impact conflict. So it's going to be fun and inspiring. So happy to be here. Great. And by the way, Kelly, you probably don't know this about Bill, but he travels with the brain and takes it everywhere and probably has about a million miles on that plastic brain . So it's, it's a lot of fun. Now, by way of introduction, Kelly Leonard is the Executive Director of Learning and Applied Improvisation at Second City Works, overseeing the second science project with the Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business. His book, yes. And was published A Critical acclaim by Harper Collins.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Kelly has spoken at Aspen Ideas Festival, Microsoft and TEDx Broadway, and host the podcast getting to Yes. And for WGN and Second City for over 20 years. He oversaw second city's live theatrical divisions working with such talent as some people you may have heard of, like Tina Faye, Stephen Colbert, Amy Poller, Seth Myers, king, and Michael Key, and of course, my favorite Stephen Corll. As you might suspect, listeners, we've been highly anticipating this discussion with Kelly, but you may be wondering about comedy on a podcast to do with high conflict. Can High conflict fit with comedy? Yes. And so Kelly, welcome. Very happy to be here now to, you know, introduce you to our listeners who may not know you yet, we want them to fall in love with you. So we have our first fun questions. First one, where did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So I'm the youngest of six boys and my dad was a, um, radio presenter in Boston, and his station went rock. Uh, and this is in the, um, mid sixties. Uh, so he sent his tape around the nation. It ended up, uh, he ended up getting hired at WGN Radio here in Chicago. And my mom packed us up and I grew up in Kenworth, Illinois, uh, which is a very rich suburb of Chicago. Um, I don't think we thought of ourselves as particularly rich. Uh, I know that the, um, the ta my mom used to hang up the laundry on a closed line, and the town actually erected a fence to hide that from the street.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Oh,
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Dear. Um, also my parents were the, um, first Irish Catholic and first Democrats in Kenworth. So when my parents went to go vote in the Democratic primary, they didn't have any ballots, so they had to go to Skokie, cuz that's where some Jews were, uh, who, who did vote with Democrats. But it was, it was, I, I, I joke about it, but obviously it was a lovely sort of incredible place to grow up. And, um, because my dad was in the industry, I got exposed to all the culture of Chicago, so going to theater and opera and concerts in Second City. And so it was a really, really fun childhood.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Oh, we had the same in western Nebraska. , just kidding.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
. Very similar.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
. All right. Um, so what is your favorite reading genre? Or if you prefer movies, that's fine too.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
No, no, no. I re I read, I'm a voracious reader. Uh, uh, I like science and I like poetry, um, that, that sort of balances off. So I read, you know, I host a podcast. I have lots of academics, so I read about two books a week in that sort of genre. And then when I'm looking to sort of get in touch with a different part of who I am, I will read some Billy Collins or some Anne Sexton. I love the poet, David White. Um, I just, poetry is something I used to read a lot, and then I kind of didn't, and then I've rediscovered it.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Ah, lovely. I'm, I'm kind of new to poetry, so it, it takes a bit to get into. Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Now, where do you wish you could live? If you could live anywhere in the world, and maybe it's Chicago.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, I don't think I'd move from Chicago, but the, my wife and I have talked about London as a place that we might land at some point. I, I love it there. You know, I'm sort of an Anglophile and, um, I'm a huge soccer slash football fan, so, you know, being able to support my, my favorite team and, and, you know, and British food has gotten so much better than when I was younger and used to travel over there.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
That's true. There's so much to choose from. Um, well, good. Well, you're like all of our guests, uh, so far asking this question, they are happy where they're living, so, oh, it's good. Yeah. Um, last question. If you could spend one hour with someone to have a discussion, um, just sit down and ask questions or sit with, who would that be?
Speaker 2 (06:05):
All right. So I got this question a couple hours ago and, and it took me about five minutes, but I realized I, I knew exactly who it was gonna be, and it would be, uh, Victor Frankel who wrote the book, man Search For Meaning, ah,
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Uhhuh.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
It's
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Not a
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Comedy, it's the opposite. Uh, in the sense that he was, um, a survivor of the Holocaust and he had been in a concentration camp, and his book, man Search For Meaning was basically like, how do you find purpose, uh, in, in this life when you go through something like that? And he f he found it. Um, and that I've been through a lot of tragedy in my life and, and the, the going back to that text and is amazing, but I would love to talk to the man. I would love to sort of hear his stories and, you know, where he found that particular piece, given the sort of atrocities that he lived in. And, and I'll say this, this is why maybe shouldn't be surprising given my background in comedy, because no one gets into comedy cuz they're well adjusted . That is, that is not, we end up here cuz we're all broken in some way.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And when we use this medium to explore the things that people don't say, uh, explore often very dark material, and by making it, by shining a comedic light on it, we're trying to find some level of truth. And so I think it shouldn't also be surprising that many people are getting their late night news opinions from comedians. Uh, people are finding it in John Oliver and Trevor Noah and Steven Colbert and Seth Myers. Right? I mean, that's, that's the, the, the distrust of our news sources while upsetting and, and not good, uh, it doesn't mean that other people aren't out there who have a point of view that's, that's valuable and, and many of those are the comedians.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Nice. Very good. Well, that's interesting. Well, thank you for sharing with our, our listeners and, and with us. Um, I feel like I know you a little bit better and I would love to sit down with you Well,
Speaker 2 (08:04):
You're, you're about to .
Speaker 1 (08:05):
All right, here we go. Okay, well, let's, let's, uh, get going with talking about your book that you wrote, co-wrote with Tom Horton. Um, it's the title, full title is Yes. And How Improvisation Reverses No, but Thinking and Improves Creativity and Collaboration Lessons From The Second City. Um, from what I can Tell, it's a great book for leaders to, to foster and nurture a yes and approach to work. And, um, it follows the seven Tenets of Improvisation, which I think you'll probably be talking to about us about. So just tell us about this book and, um, who it's for, what it's about, why you wrote it, all
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Of that. So when we pitched Harper Collins on the idea for the book, the title was The Revolution Will Be Improvised, which was a play on a Gil Scott Heron song. Uh, and they liked it. They, they, they thought that was a good title. And, but they also suggested because we, you know, second City takes its improv improvisational pedagogy and applies it, uh, in many different settings, uh, um, corporate often, um, that we have a huge division that just does this training with, uh, groups all over the world. Um, and, and we took the Harper Collins marketing team, uh, through a Second City improv workshop, and we had them do the yes and exercise. So I think most people are pretty familiar with this idea now. Um, but in the, uh, parlance of improvisation, when people are making something outta nothing, you get nowhere by saying no.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
And you actually don't get that far by saying yes. We say, you say yes, and you affirm and contribute in order to explore and heighten. And when we took them through this three prong exercise, we pair people, have them pitch a reunion in a year, have one person do the pitching, the other person just say no the whole time, and then we have to switch places and the other person pitches and the other, the other person says yes. But, and a lot of it's funny, when we debrief that part, 50% of the people think I was better than, than the no. And 50% think it's worse. And we often say yes, but is just no with a bow tie, you know, it's, we're saying No, it's just you heard it, yes. But it's, it's not real. And then we have them Yes. And where they build together, and we say, money's no object.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
You know, there are no rules of science. And it's amazing when you take the shackles off yourself, what you can build. And we know this because we've been using this technique to create award-winning comedy for well over 60 years, and Second City only does original work. That's kinda an amazing thing that all this original comedy that's very successful. Uh, and then what we realized is people are doing this in their lives every day. Uh, they're, you know, talk to anyone in business. It's like, you know, what do you hear? Are they here? No, all the time. And they might hear yes, but, and if leaders are looking for their people to tap into their most creative selves, they need to get their people to not be in judgment of themselves or judgment of others. And Yes. And is a recipe for that. And one of the things that's kind of cool is working with the scientists at the University of Chicago, and in particular Richard Thaler who wrote the book, nudge, what we know about behavioral economics at least, is that people's default position is to do nothing or say no. So yes. And is literally a nudge to go the other way.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
You know, I've been a mediator for 40 years, and yes, Anne makes a whole lot of sense, but I wonder how do you, how do you apply that in a conflict situation or in a high conflict situation that there's kind of, what would it look like?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
It's funny you bring this up because when I was, I tell this story all the time when I was on book tour with a, and I remember, this is in Aspen. We're doing a session at the Aspen Ideas Festival, and any author says they don't do this as lying to you. If you're on book tour, you go into the local book shop and see if your book is there. Uh, and and since I had written a business book, I would go to that SEC section and there was a book out, uh, on improvisation and negotiation. Uh, and I leafed through it. And the guy was obviously an expert in negotiation who took like one improv class. So he, he had some stuff right, about improvisation, uh, but but not all of it. And that inspired me in terms of the, the much of the work that I've been doing the last five, six years.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
So first thing you gotta do is you gotta set norms. And that's true of, of, of anything. You've gotta create context. If you're, if you're without context that none of this stuff works. This is, this is the great lie of almost all business books is that, you know, I know we have seven, seven steps. The publisher made me do that. Um, , yeah. There, there are no seven steps. There are a bunch of situations, there's tools and, and they can be applied in, in, in different ways. But talking about setting norms, as long as you're not playing a zero sum game, uh, you can apply this if you're playing a zero sum game, doesn't work. So, uh, set norms that we are going to collaborate, um, and that we're gonna try to look out for what's best in, in, in all of our interests. And, and the yes and idea is allowing anything to be on the table.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Um, and, and, and working from a place of abundance. Like let's look at, at what if, if, if we're having a negotiation, what can we make that's bigger? Because both of us are sitting at this table or, or, or subtracting if that's the way you wanna go. But, but it is about a coming together to improve everyone's lot. Uh, and so the idea of yes, and is talking about an approach that's very pro-social, um, that is very focused on self-regulation, all, all those elements. Um, and it's a starting point. And I always often say this, which is we apply in, in, in a 10 to 12 week process of creating a second city review on stage here in Chicago or Toronto, um, yes. And is like the first four weeks, and then there is so much no after that because what you've done is you've, you've got all the clay, we've got everything.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Now we've gotta make it into something you're still gonna be Yes. And mindset. You're still gonna approach everything with like, let's purchase a positivity and, and assuming good intent and all those things. But you also have to say no. Uh, and, and this is the difference between creativity and innovation, which, and, and people always conflate that all the time, but creativity is messy. Creativity is, yes. Ann, creativity is by adding out all these ideas, you know, not being in judgment, uh, and then innovation is actually building the thing. And at that point there's a lot of judgment and other things that come into it. So I think it's learning to sort of separate those things and understanding that yes, and is, is like the opening move. Uh, and probably a few moves after that, and then you move into a different space.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Interesting. Now let me just, some thoughts I'm having about high conflict.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:37):
I often thought in high conflict situations, a high conflict person who's got a lot of all or nothing thinking hands you a problem. And in many cases, we teach people not to accept it. I say this is the opposite of improv. In improv, someone hands you a problem, you always have to accept it and create from there. But in managing high conflict, we have to not just accept all the negative thinking and distortions that people hand us. So I'm just finding this fascinating because I totally agree with Yes. And an approach to solving problems. So maybe my answer to my thinking is improv can be useful and .
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah. I, I look again, back to my opening point, like, like there's gonna be don't. Yes. And when someone is like, trying to jump off a cliff, there's, there's absolutely. You know, so you Yes. And is a property that exists in, in a creative space, and if there, if there is no psychological safety, if there's danger, those sorts of things, I don't, I wouldn't use it. I, I, I, I absolutely, there, there's times to run away. Now what I will say is, in my experience, uh, we have a tendency to qualify things as high conflict when maybe they're not so high, they're what you're seeing or missing. And by working with a scientist that I work with, it has been very humbling to recognize. Uh, Epley is one of the, uh, scientists we work with wrote a terrific book called Mind Wise. And Epley's research shows us that in our, um, conversations, our interactions, uh, with people that we know, we get it right around 30, 20 to 30% of the time.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
30 if it's maybe someone we're married to, which means we're missing it 70% or even 80% of the time. And if people are, if people are surprised by that, don't be, don't be, uh, if you're a major league baseball player and you're having a meeting with your manager and you're talking to them about, I haven't hit the ball 70% of the time, you're a 300 hitter, you're, you are great. Uh, so the, the, the application is pretty clean. And so when you understand that you might be getting it wrong, that they might be getting it wrong. And if you have the ability to see that person and let them know, you see them, and I'm gonna give you a really good example about this. Uh, you, you have an opportunity. So the very first time we met with the group of scientists at the University of Chicago, they said, take us through an exercise.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
So we took 'em through. Yes. And, and, and they're like, this totally makes sense. We have the science to back this up, but what happens when, uh, you can't? Yes. And the person across from you, what happens when you need to stay inside that conversation, but you just fundamentally don't agree. And we didn't know. They didn't know. So they went back and looked at the literature, and we went back to our improv lab and, and tried some stuff out, and we actually came up with a fourth pillar. So when I talked about the exercise, I, I had no, yes, but, and yes. And, um, the fourth one is, thank you because, and the idea here is if I, uh, disagree with your pov, um, uh, but I thank you for that information. I set off the gratitude part of the brain and that because it's crucial, I find something, anything, no matter how small that I can agree with.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
And that allows the person to be seen. So, specific example, uh, my daughter got sick, uh, and her best friend's parents were antix well before it became fashionable. This is years ago. Um, and the kids, I didn't want them not to sort of stay in conversation. I like the parents. And so I tried this out on them and I said, thank you, because you care for your girls so much. You don't want her to be hurt by these vaccines. I care for my girls so much. I don't wanna be hurt by someone who's unvaccinated. So we care about the same thing. And that kept a relationship. The kids FaceTimed, they, they texted, they did all these things, but we didn't have to like cancel each other. Uh, there's a paper coming out next year because we're still doing, we've, we've done this exercise with thousands of people. And the reports are overwhelmingly positive that people stay in these conversations for longer. They're surprised that they can find connections and they come to better outcomes.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
And that's the key is connections. Yeah. Right? It's all about connections. That's what we teach at hdi. Uh, so much is using what we call in your statement that this is a concept bill or method bill developed, um, using empathy, attention, and respect to connect with someone. And people that feel connected, feel, uh, safe. They feel like they can trust a bit more and be in a conversation. And I, you know, as, as you're talking about, yes, and versus yes, but you know, like you said, yes, but is just a no wrapped in a bow tie. Um, and I think with an individual who is defensive and, you know, reactive and, you know, it's, it's, it happens very quickly for them. So there's a lot of negativity right off the bat if they hear yes, but instantly escalation, right? Yeah. Yes. And I don't think you're going to get the escalation.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
No. And you might, you might catch them so off guard that, that they're, you know, sort of forced to being open and look at, look at something a different way. And again, let me note here, I'm talking about two things, uh, yes. And is an improvisational concept. So we teach improvisation, um, as a way to develop humor. That's what we do in our training center here. Um, when we're teaching improvisation for business people, it's applied, it's applied to the interaction that they have, but often that results in a level of humor. And what we know from science is humor is often simply about sort of surprise and surprise can equal delight. Uh, and so if you can move someone into surprise and delight, oh my God, the conversation has changed.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit more about your work with the Booth School of Business at University of Chicago. Um, I know you've been involved in a study with, um, about behavioral science, uh, through the lens of improvisation. But maybe let's back up a bit and talk more about improvisation and share with our listeners really what that means. What, what do you teach in the school? What, why does improvisation work
Speaker 2 (20:51):
If you don't have a script? Uh, which we don't. We, we teach people the skills they need to create something out of nothing with a group. Uh, sometimes it's one partner, but sometimes it's six. So let's go way back to how this stuff started. Um, in the twenties and thirties, there was a woman by the name of Viola Spolan, who was a social worker at Jane Adams whole house here on the south side of Chicago. And her job was to better assimilate the immigrant children who were coming into her care. And so she had a background in theater. She was, uh, taught by a woman named Ne Boyd. And Viola, uh, created all these improv games. Uh, they, they, you know, so gamified exercises that allowed the kids to communicate, collaborate, empathize. Many of them are in gibberish or silence cuz the kids didn't always share language. And Viola's son, Paul Sills, was studying at the University of Chicago, and he loved playing these games. So he taught them to his friends. People like Mike Nichols, Elaine May, among others. They formed the first improvisational theater in America called the Compass Players in 1957. That morphed into the second city in 1959. So this work comes from a social worker doing children's games,
Speaker 1 (21:56):
. Now Bill loves this. He, he, he's a social worker. ,
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's your for social workers. Absolutely. So if you, if you look at through that lens, you're like, oh, wow, okay, maybe there's more going on here. Uh, and so, uh, when, when I got to Second City in 1988, we were doing some corporate work, not a lot. Fast forward into the nineties and the early odds, and it kind of explodes. Um, and, and then in recent days it's through the roof. And part because, you know, much of the work we've done, but also all the science that's come around, out around human behavior is so tied to improvisational approach, which is about being grateful, uh, about being curious. Uh, we have a concept in improv called Follow the Follower, which maps perfectly to Peter Drucker's management theories. Interesting thing, like everyone talks about Drucker, you know, who, who's been dead for decades of being such a genius.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
It no one adopted his organizational structure. We're all still top down hierarchies for the most part. Um, but improvisation is very different in terms of treating everyone like a knowledge worker. And, and the follow the follower concept is, is simply like, you know, in one situation I should be the leader, but in another situation, say, if you needed something fixed on your computer, you do not want me anywhere near that. So , you know, it, it really is looking for the skills that show a group that all of us are better than one of us. We teach in our work that you need to bring a brick, not a cathedral, uh, to, to, to your, the things you're creating. So, so many people walk into these rooms where their cathedral already build, leaving no room for what the, uh, Harvard Professor Mike Norton calls the IKEA effect, the idea that we, uh, value the things that we co-create more than things are just given to us.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Um, and, and that one of the reasons IKEA is, is, is popular. Um, and, and the other, the other reality too is what we do when we improvise to create our scripts is we're rapid prototyping in front of audiences. Also a thing that we know scientifically makes the most sense. So really, we have a couple things going on at Second City, which is we're we produced generation after generation of great comic artists. Um, and we've got this incredible laboratory where we're using our work to get at better outcomes, uh, uh, and, and, and, and what I, what I call human being practice. We don't get to practice being a human. Uh, and, and our work allows you to do that
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Human being practice. That's, that is great. It's, and it's, so I love what you're saying about everybody bringing their gifts to the table. Right. And you have to recognize those. And I know sometimes I'm guilty even with my own team of, of just coming in with my cathedral already built. Right. Um, and it is, it is nice when you can, when you get to know someone and you're open to, to what their, their creativity and their gifts and what, just what they bring, what they bring to the table can, can add so much more. Yes. And right.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
Well, we're all guilty of this. And, and I've often talked about the fact that we're doctors who smoke. Um, we'll be in meetings just cutting down each other's ideas. So, uh, and, and that, you know, this is a lifelong practice. Just like you don't go to the gym once and you're like done. You know, you, you wanna see the value of exercise. You do it every single day. And that's what, that's what you need to do. In, in terms of this, it's amazing to me that we understand that our peak performers in sports need to, uh, practice their dribbling, major league baseball players play catch before the game. They understand the value and importance of that musicians, they yoyo ma practices the scales in the business world. There are billions of dollars on the line and who's practicing listening. Hmm.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Good point.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Very good. Yeah. So, so you talk about the science some, and I'm curious in, in a few minutes, in simple terms, what, what's going on in the brain that really helps open creativity with humor? You know, the dynamics of that.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
So we did a study with the, um, uh, scientist Charles Li. Uh, he had actually, he started doing, uh, FMRIs on rappers, uh, having them wrap from pre-written scripts and then improvising. And then he did it with, he created a plastic, uh, piano. So he did some jazz improvisation. And then he flew in a bunch of Second City improvisers to San Francisco to read from scripts, but then to also improvise. And what he discovered is that when, and I don't have the technical terms, I'm, I'm, I understand way more about behavioral science and neuroscience, but what Charles told me, and he's got a Ted talk and other things on this, is that when our people and the other folks were improvising, that the part of the brain, uh, that basically, uh, increases flow and decreases judgment lit up. Uh, so you're literally in a different brain state when you are improvising, uh, way more to study there.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Uh, but what I know, and I've mentioned this a couple times, but I think it's important to repeat, is you aren't creative if you're in judgment of self or others. So just the skill to get that out is a kind of deep relearning that we offer here at the Second City. All the beginning improv classes very much could resemble what I call loud, um, group mindfulness. It's, it's this, this training where you are in a group where it's noisy, learning to quiet, uh, any self-critical voice and certainly not looking to criticize the other person to see whatever they have of value, affirming it, building upon it. Um, and, and then what, what you discover, uh, and there was a book written by this title by Jeff Sweet, which is, you find something wonderful right away. Once you have it, it's like an adrenaline rush. It, it's like, you know, it, it just feels so good to create something, compare completely unique with other people. Um, I remember, uh, Harold Rams, uh, the late great film actor, writer director. So this is Animal House Stripes, Groundhog Day, ghost Ghostbusters. Um, I, he's such a, he was so generous with his time, uh, and I was talking to him one day and he said, yeah, people always ask me for advice when they first started Second City, I like taking classes and my advice to them is, fine, the funniest person in the room and stand next to them. Cuz that's what he did. And the person he stood next to was John Belushi .
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Interesting wisdom there. Yeah. And Harold just, he took such delight in other people's success. And when you meet someone like that, you wanna be with someone like that. So whether it's a negotiation, whether it's a, a new partnership, whatever it is, if you can walk with that into a room, you have the advantage, it sounds like, standing in the other person's shoes. Sure. Or or yeah. If not standing in them, seeing them and saying, I see them. I see you. Yeah. I, I mean that, that's, that's an elixir. That's, that's powerful. And also if it's true, it's, it's, it's great because one of the things I I learned in the partnership was a whole bunch of science. But one of them was a, a thing that William Swan, uh, studied and developed and coined called Self Verification Theory. And the idea behind self verification theory is that, you know, normally we think that people wanna be seen as their best selves and their prettiest selves and their smartest selves.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Not true. People want to be seen as they see themselves. So if I see myself as clumsy, I need you to see me as clumsy. So you don't throw me a ball, but I'm not gonna tell you that. Mm. And when you understand it's not just about me being others focused, it's about me actually figuring out, usually through asking a lot of questions and listening well that, oh no, in fact, this is how you see yourself. You can then start to respond as such. Um, you know, self verification theory explains a lot of things like bad marriages, I think, I think a lot of people get stuck in that trap is because they don't see that well of themselves. Um, and so that scratching some sort of perverse itch, uh, conversely, if you find that someone just wants someone to say something nice to them, which is often the case, you know, uh, Nick Epley once said to me, if, if you're in a bad mood, um, uh, do something nice for someone, it will get you out of that.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
It's true. It's so true. I mean, it's very similar to the principal in, in aa Right. Of giving to someone. It, it takes you outta yourself. And I I bill you probably the, the same position I am sometimes when we're coaching people are doing consultations, you know, I I'll say, look, go do something for someone else. Don't get so stuck in yourself. And it really takes you, takes you out of that. So it seems like much of, of this, uh, is is humility, you know, seeing others as as important as you see yourself, which I don't know that in Western cultures we're great at that. Um, we're at how great
Speaker 2 (30:55):
No, we're terrible at that. Right. I mean, there's, there's so, there's so much tied to Eastern Religion. Uh, well, one of the things, okay, so one of my favorite books I read, uh, of recent vintage, uh, was by Annie Murphy Paul, and it's called The Extended Mind. She's a great science writer and she offers up that, um, we have really bad metaphors for thinking. So when we think of the brain as computer, that's not right, uh, uh, uh, a computer will operate the same outdoors as indoors. We do not, uh, a com a computer will operate the same if 10 people around it or one person is not around it. We do not. Uh, and so there are perhaps better ways of thinking about our, our brain. And one of the things we've really lost in the West, that they didn't in the east, is understanding how the body and the brain work together.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Uh, so I, I experienced this firsthand because I started to have, uh, a sort of a phobia, uh, to driving on highways. And I was working on this with my therapist, but I started reading Annie Murphy Paul's book, and she has some science in there around gesture and some other things. And so I was getting on Lake Shore Drive, which I was still okay with getting on here in Chicago. And there was a truck that was gonna pass me, and this is one of my triggers. And so when it did, I smiled, and I will tell you all that fear went straight outta my body. Oh,
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Fascinating.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
And my, my therapist has used that with other people. She has said it wor it's works. And actually, if you think about the science about it, the the, my body is getting the thing before my brain, my, but so my, we've grown up the fear, you know? Yeah. So it's evolution, right? It's like, oh, this is a danger thing. My body is telling my brain something, so I have to retreat my body to give my brain better information. And my, my smiles doing that.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Yeah. Your your, your smile is, is combating the anxiety. And I, I sure wish I would've known this the one of the times I was driving in Australia, you know, which is opposite side of the car, opposite side of the road, I did when I'm out in the country and the rural area is just two lane road, not very much traffic. Ah, I do this all day long. And then I would get in the city and, uh, the anxiety would increase. And I was just like, you, when you were talking about driving on the, the freeways, it's just, uh, in busy streets. It's just, it brought, brought this back and that fear, the anxiety that comes up and, uh, how am I gonna get to the airport? Uh, all these trucks are going so fast and my anxiety just increases in increases. And, um, and we have these little anxiety points and there were people along the way that helped me by leading me to the gas station or le you know, showing me how to put gas in the vehicle and all those things I didn't know. And, um, those were external, um, inputs to me. But I guess if I would've had, you know, the presence of mine are known that I maybe a smile on my own face could have been my own internal input that could have helped the situation.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
And I think across the board, tying this back to improv too, is improvisation is embodied learning. So you, you are doing it, uh, uh, and it's, there's a lot of movement involved. And, and so you're doing it before you're thinking about it, and then you analyze later, which is always a good thing to do. Uh, but what we know, um, uh, currently from science, it could change later, but what we know is embodied learning is the best kind of learning. Uh, because it com it completes that sort of learning loop of re receiving information, playing with that information, regurgitating it back out, uh, in a sort of a, a, a series. And it really ties into Carol Dweck's growth mindset stuff of like, not yet, rather than You got it wrong. Hmm. Not yet. Not yet. Cause you, you, you learn from fa I have learned nothing from my successes, I have only learned from my failures . And, and by the way, my failures are way better stories than any of my successes.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
, we'll have to have you on again to, to hear about those. I'm a big, big proponent of failure . Yep. I know some aren't, but I, I, in all my teachings, I, I talk about, about, you know, let let your kids fail a little bit. Let them learn to grow. That's, that's where we, that's where we get growth. So,
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yep. A hundred
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Percent. Excellent. Well,
Speaker 3 (34:50):
You're so positive. I just wanna say, I just have this positive energy coming from you, and it just means there's so much possible that opening our minds and experimentation, improvisation.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah. Um,
Speaker 3 (35:04):
This is great. And I'm gonna get your book.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Okay, great. ,
Speaker 3 (35:07):
I have, I have getting to, yes. One of my favorite books from 40 years ago. Be an excellent follow up. So thank that.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Great. Well, Kelly, this has been a complete treat for us, , and I'm sure for our listeners as well. Many thanks from Bill, from me and, and from our listeners. And we wish you continued tremendous success in your work. Um, it's important you're impacting lives, you've impacted ours today. And I hope, I hope the same is for our listeners. And I have no doubt that's true
Speaker 1 (35:44):
For you listeners out there, you'll find all the links to Kelly's work in the show notes, including his book and to his podcast. And of course, you'll find the links to HCI and our books and other resources there as well. Send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com, um, and tell all your friends about us. We'd be grateful if you'd leave a review wherever you listen to our podcast too. And next week we'll be joined by another Kelly. This time Kelly 11, an educator who coined the term jackhammer parent. We'll talk with her about what that is and also about helicopter and lawnmower parents and how it all ties into conflict, especially high conflict. So don't miss it. Until next time, have a great week. Stay positive, read that book. Yes. And, uh, try a little creativity in improvisation, um, and keep learning these skills to address high conflict situations so you can be part of helping everyone find the missing piece. It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins, and Z Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts@truestory.fm for high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.