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This episode covers the shame trigger of sex. In this episode, Samantha talks with author of "Swing," Ashleigh Renard, about her journey to a great sex life with her husband. Her book details the adventures they had joining an exclusive sex club to try to spice up their marriage and the complications that come along with that lifestyle. Her insight into sex and the lessons she learned are on display, so listen in as Ashleigh and Samantha "Flush It Out!"
Flushing It Out with Samantha Spittle, the Introvert's Extrovert. The podcast where she talks to people so you don't have to...for now.
Samantha Spittle 0:00
Then I read your book. And I was like, this is everything because you talk about the sex stuff. But it's like bait and switch, which I joke about my platform is because I started because I shit my pants, and that's what I was gonna take to the grave. And then I started telling people and I wasn't the only one. I was like, why it
Ashleigh Renard 0:15
started with flushing it out. Oh, my God. Yes. Okay. So why? All right. I love this so much, Sam. It's like, and this is, this is why I wrote swing, that I felt like, this was my deepest, darkest secret that I couldn't tell anyone. And I was harboring so much shame over, finding out that my marriage was imperfect. And the way in which I found out was like, I accidentally fell in love with another man I met at a sex club. Oops. It's like, where do you start with this story? Like, are there any humans on Earth? Who I could actually tell this full story too? And I thought, No, there aren't. So I'm going to make myself write a book about it and tell everyone.
Unknown Speaker 1:02
Now here you are. Done that.
Ashleigh Renard 1:06
It was like, you know, it's like Brene. Brown says, like, she can't live in the light. And I was just like, I'm just going to just take this thing that I think is the very worst thing about me, the very first worst thing I've done. And the thing that shows all of those awful character traits that I must have deep at my core, right? Just right. Yes, and all things, all the things. But I had already lived it. healed from it transformed from it when I decided, now I'm going to make this into art to share it. Yes. Because that's the thing it has to be processed, or it just comes out like, like you're being spewed upon. Yeah, right. It has to have like, you know, there has to be like a little bit of separation, a little bit of like, just like, you know, the artists understanding that when someone else takes your thing that you've made, they're going to experience it in their own way. And that's okay.
Samantha Spittle 2:19
That's why you have to be at a place where I love the, the term that we share from a scar, not a wound. And I feel like that's what allows us to give it out and be like, here's my thing. This is what I learned from it, but you might get something totally different. But like, Here you
Ashleigh Renard 2:36
go. Absolutely. And I was gonna say that too. We share our stories from the scars, not the wounds, because we have to make sure that you know, there are always going to be there's always going to be some feedback. That doesn't feel good, right. But luckily, Touchwood for me, that's like I was like, like 500 to one at least 100 to one usually 500 to one. It's like Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, slot.
Samantha Spittle 3:05
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you,
Ashleigh Renard 3:06
thank you. And honestly, it's so rare. It's so rare.
Samantha Spittle 3:10
But it says more about them though, like I so my like back, like coming into this conversation. I was like, you know, I read the book in one day. And I was like, Oh my gosh, where to even go? Because it is a joke amongst my friends. Like I've always said, No Dateline shit. That's like my thing. I don't like anything. Anything non vanilla, like, you know, because it's just, but that's why I'm frickin loving this series. Because with all these conversations, it started out with a podcast I actually listened to, which is we all have our own sex stories, right? Like, and instead of either trying to pathologize things, or just accept everything, we it's more important that we understand our stuff. So that like planted the seed. And then through these conversations, it's like, oh, my gosh, the same theme in all areas of life is that it's not about you. Like, as I'm pointing at you your story. It's like, it's all the stuff it's bringing up in me, like, oh my gosh, so when I share my stuff, people are gonna react to it based on theirs. And also on a side note, too. I've also realized that because you're a brilliant writer, and I just like it's like, listening to your best friend describe her stuff. So thank you. I realized like, oh my gosh, I have an issue with consent. Lying deception. predatory behavior. Like, those are my issues. And it's like, because so much in the world is connected to sex stuff, or Dateline shit, as I would say. So it's like, I just feel like throughout this, I'm like, unpacking my own stuff, too. So I know. Thank you very much, because
Ashleigh Renard 4:53
there's sidenote, you're welcome.
Samantha Spittle 4:55
It's like, oh my gosh. So for today, I would love to know What you want to jump into because your book and I say this in the best way possible, it's the best bait and switch I've ever read.
Ashleigh Renard 5:08
Yes, yes. Okay, Sam, thank you for that. It was it was a purposeful bait and switch. So hi everybody, Sam's talking about my book swing. And the first scene in that book is me waiting in line to use the bathroom at a sex party in New York City. That was invite only we had to send in headshots and a relationship bio to get on the damn guestlist. And it looks like a casting call for the Bachelor, like people are just gorgeous. Okay. And so I'm there, I'm waiting to use the bathroom. And I ended up going into the bathroom with this kind gentleman in front of me because I really need to go. And this woman pushes past me into the women's room. And he's like, just coming with me. And there's this thing like that, you know, if you're at a sex club, and someone says, especially hot, someone with a British accent, says, Hey, you want to come with me? Like you may say yes. So I go in to the bathroom. And that's where that's where it starts. Oh, since we're in the bathroom, I'll tell you. And since you know, we're flushing it out. There was no toilet in the bathroom. There was no toilet in the bathroom. So this man I just met helped me like prop up in this tiny New York bathroom, like spider climb position to pee in the urinal. There was a urinal. So perfect. Yeah. And then I made out with him. But anyway, so that was the story. And then I leave the bathroom to go find my husband. But story is not really about sex clubs. The story is about how easy it is to lose yourself and the roles that you think you should be playing for other people. And I'm not even talking about kinky role play, I'm talking about being being a wife and being a mother and a daughter and a business owner. And I coached figure skating for 23 years. So I was coaching teams and teams and teams like at the time that all of this was going down on my marriage. So my organization, I just tripled the size of it. So it was 10 teams, 100 150 skaters and 10 teams, who are showing up for every single day. And while I'm showing up for them, I'm realizing I haven't shown up for myself in a decade. But all of us have those things that we're so good at, that we're so strong at that really mask so much our vulnerability masks so many of our needs for ourselves and others. But for me, this was a realizing in in putting myself in a situation where my marriage was imploding. I realized, oh, wow, like I do not have the stable foundation. Anywhere in my life that I thought maybe I had,
Samantha Spittle 8:12
yes. And it's funny. I love how you walk through kind of those stories, because I mean, hello. I mean, who doesn't love to just sit and listen to stories, so like that alone. But your insights, like I the first part of reading it, but then I'm like highlighting like crazy, because all of your aha moments, I feel like that's the part that a lot of times we skip through. And I you know, I grew up, like Sex in the City, you know, binging that with my girlfriends in college, like we watch, you know, all the DVDs and that kind of glamorized it and then kind of made light of it. And it's like, there's so much more underneath. And it's just stuff we all deal with. And so I just loved that you addressed all of it.
Ashleigh Renard 9:01
It really it really is. And okay, it's so all of us are looking to feel filled up. All of us. And most of us have at least one or two ways that we do that. That's not that great for us. Right? Whether it's scrolling, whether it's shopping, whether it's food, whether it's alcohol, whether it's gambling, right. And in my story, I showed how 10 years into my marriage, 10 years and three kids into my marriage, really in a stressful situation at work. So my husband's a stock trader and I coached figure skating and I'm like, if you ever want to guarantee yourself a stomach ulcer, like deal with like the stock market or figure skating parents like either one, right?
Samantha Spittle 9:55
And then you combine them and you have Yeah,
Ashleigh Renard 9:58
yeah, we had a lot. Yeah, we had a lot I, and and I mean, you know, I go back in the book and tell, you know how things were things were tricky for us when our kids were really little too. And I kept thinking, like, oh my gosh, there's so much like, life is so much right now. But it'll get better, but it'll get better, right? But it just, it didn't get better as him it just got more and more, more people more responsibility more more and more to hold. So, in, in the book, I show how, you know, after a decade or more of really trying to be self sufficient, I find this kind of release or this out or this like channel this this, this pipeline of some validation through attention from other men, because we start consensually, right? Going to lifestyle sex clubs, like swing lifestyle, just for just for like, a fun time. Like, we're like, oh my god, we work so hard. What if we just let loose and just went to a club just did her own thing, but like, just for that atmosphere. But right away, right away, I started getting some attention. And and that was something that was always lacking in my marriage was affection was when I say in the book, like my husband, Manny had this joke where he would say, I told you once that I loved you, unless I tell you otherwise, assume I continue to love you. Yes. You like stuck to that. You're like stuck to that. And I firstborn child street, a student competitive figure skater like my parents put me on skates when I was two and a half, right? Like I don't even remember not knowing how to skate. I'm just reaching for the highest level of difficulty and not having to ask for help was like the way I tried to make myself have value
Samantha Spittle 12:08
in the world. And it's funny, you see why we are attracted to people that kind of continue the narratives that we created when we are kids. Like, you didn't quote me that validation, because you are a naturally striving that's right isn't
Ashleigh Renard 12:26
naturally striving. Yeah, I don't need someone to tell me. I'm pretty. I don't need to tell someone tell me. I'm smart. I don't need to I don't know. I don't need I don't need. I'm the one who doesn't need anything. I'm the one who doesn't need anything. That's how I'm a good kid. That's not a therapy session today, because I might I'm the one that Yeah, I mean, that's like, we all we all fulfill these different roles in our families and in our, you know, teams organizations. But you know, so much of it goes back to family. And I was like, I'm the one who doesn't need anything. I'm the one who will never be a pain. I'm the one who will always have accomplishments that will make you proud. I'm the one I'm the one. So then to get married to someone who just kind of match that up with, you know, was a match, and then to be going through life and just to feel like I need more of something. So I reach for another accomplishment. I reach for growing my business. I have another kid I have a home birth I homeschool I mean this was before pandemic to like homeschooling on purpose.
Samantha Spittle 13:21
Yes. Before we chose that. You said something about what I what I felt like resonated, there's like so there's so much that resonates, even if, like you said, we all reach for something. And so for you, it was this attention and going to these lifestyle clubs. There's so much goodness in the book that if that's not what someone's reaching for, and even just our conversation today, it's like you reach for something. But there was something missing, like you said with your husband. And you said, you talked about how you just filled it with like, more relationships, he can't meet my needs. So I'm going to dig, I'm going to pour into these relationships. And as you just said, I'm going to achieve this. And I'm going to do this. And so I feel like that's where there's so many women. That's the common bond I feel and I'm meant to but especially women, then you're feeling unfulfilled. But when we know that it's sex money, and what's the other one? I don't know, that we fight about, like people, you know, those are the Top Common things, it seems logical that obviously if we're not fulfilled, these are the areas we need to make more money. We need to improve our sex life. You know, we don't think about all these other things like, oh, I need more just maybe it's attention or validation or connection with my spouse, but that's not on the table. So we just need to fix sex.
Ashleigh Renard 14:37
Yeah, absolutely. And so that brings me to where how my platform has grown, and how the community that I've magnetized to myself and just all of this has grown and shifted since swing was published. So I started making a few months before the book came out, I made a video that was called How to keep monogamy hot part one exam. I didn't even know what part two was going to be but I did part one. And that was like decide what time of the day you want to have sex like for in our house like nighttime or for sleeping and mornings or for coffee. And then it had like my that video was like me like this morning basically. Right? Right. It's like oh, yeah, that sleepy face we all know that sleepy face we wake up more like who is that? What is sleep? Oh sleepy. reaction was incredible. Incredible to the point now where I like, my videos get like seven to 8 million views a week. It's just It's wild. It's wild. It's
Samantha Spittle 15:49
something that like, this is the whole thing. I went into the SEC series, like kind of, like, you know, tippy toeing. Like. I mean, amongst some of my friends, I'm the out there one talking. Yeah, that talks about crazy stuff. But like, this is scary. But the thing is, every couple, this is a huge part of life. And your video. I mean, I said I started following you because like how to keep monogamy hot, like, yes. How to because when you were in college and meeting people, and it's like, it's new, it's fresh, it's exciting. And then we come and that when we talked about this in some other episodes, you just get to a place like, this is my life now. You know, I'm a mom, I you know, and I'm like, so we all have our sex stuff. So it's like, why don't want to do this or that. So we're just ho hum, check the block. And it's like, your life doesn't have to be ho hum. You can have a fulfilled marriage. You can like emotionally physically, it's possible. And sex can be a good thing. And that's why it's so weird. Because it's something that you know, especially if you come from a faith background and stuff that that there's so much shame with it. But your the views that you get, it's such proof like, Guys, people want to have not only sex, they want to have good sex like they
Ashleigh Renard 17:03
want to everybody wants to have Okay, we have our asexual friends and things. Okay. Everyone who likes sex wants to have great sex. Okay. And in a relationship in a committed intimate partnership, especially if it's an exclusive, you know, exclusive like marriage. Can we have good snacks? Like, it's like really high up there on the list? I'm like, Yes, please. Shooting Star. Could you give that to me? Okay, so here's the thing with my videos, I think this comes from, I think this comes from poaching adolescents for so long. My videos in 30 seconds, can disarm someone. So they feel like, Oh, this is as comfortable as like talking about the weather. I can I can introduce something in a way that maybe they haven't heard it before. So they're like, Oh, okay. Can I can consider that. And then at the end, I drop them exactly where you, I always know what action I want them to take at the end of it. Okay, whether I want them to send it to their spouse. That is how my content gets shared, Sam hardly only shares my stuff to their feed or their stories or anything.
Samantha Spittle 18:22
It's all private messages.
Ashleigh Renard 18:25
It's all one to one one to one people share my videos with their partner, men and women back and forth. And because I built a career for 23 years, convincing adolescents to do what I said, I'm really good at helping people feel like they're on the same team. So when people see the video, there's this like disarming nature, like, oh, even if them in the partner have been having the same fight about sex for months or years. They're like, I feel like I could send this video that I just found to my partner. And then they have some common ground. Because it's not like you're right, you're wrong. It's like, Have you considered looking at it this way? This, this can be boring. What about this? So you know, and right in my bio, it says rehab, the shabby marriage, right? So it's like, right from the beginning. People know, I'm not like hashtag marriage goals in it. Like all over social media. It's like, marriage is a freaking setup. Like, can you believe it? We know what do we do? And there's this recurring there's a recurring joke that I do in my stories. When I'm working here and like Manny brings me food or something I'll like, I'll take a picture of like the lunch he made me and I'll be like, Oh my god, I love this guy. I can barely remember why I wanted to divorce him for so long. Like barely remember. Right? But so real that
Samantha Spittle 19:57
you were there like that's why it's so hopeful. I think for women to hear, because especially if we're talking about sex, like it's so intimate. So if you are wanting to divorce someone if you're super unhappy in your marriage, to think from going to that, and of course, that being said, we're not talking about abuse or anything like that. That's a total, you know, like you said, consenting to know it's possible to move to that place is so encouraging. So for free, like said, you have your how to keep monogamy hot. I feel like that. Right there. Like you said, it's so disarming, because I think when we start talking about sex, and that's why your book is just brilliant, is it you think you have to go down these roads like, oh, well, if we're gonna keep it hot, we need to do XYZ, we need to go here, we need to go there. So I feel like as, because we're instant friends, I'm like, Thank you, girlfriend. Thank you for going down that road for me knowing that it's something that like, I couldn't venture to because of my stuff. So thank you for doing it for me and sharing it with me. And the life lessons that come from it. And if that's for someone more power to them, like Yeah, and so I feel like you are shining the light on, you know, thinking that the answer a lot was here, but really finding it over here. So yeah, how, like, how did you go to that? And like now keeping monogamy hot? So women listening like, yes, I would like to keep monogamy hot, right? It's cold. And I want to get it hot.
Ashleigh Renard 21:27
So if here's the really, here's the really funny thing that happened when swing came out. So many men have read it, Sam, like so many men, okay. And 80% of my emails in my DMs on social media for men. Men. I can see it on your face. You're like, Oh, no. What? What? No, no, no. So I know your audience, maybe mostly women or not? Because you're saying like women and women. That's so interesting to me. I wrote a book about how miserable I was in my marriage to a man. Yeah. And I wrote it in a way that men and women are both going. Yeah, that's how I feel. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Samantha Spittle 22:13
are connecting to you or your husband or to you. That's how they feel.
Ashleigh Renard 22:18
Me. They're connecting to me. Or they're seeing they're finally hearing something that their wife has been saying to them that they get now. So that's what happens in my DMs a lot. was a lot of times when people slide into my DMs. Yeah. So it's funny, I make videos about sex. Everybody wants to talk about feelings. Everybody in my DMs wants to talk about feelings. Okay, so I may not come into my DMs and I swear like it is like, love behavior. And the graciousness of these people is exemplary. It's amazing, like the just feel so lucky, just
Samantha Spittle 23:01
because a lot of they walk around so with so much that to have a safe person to be like, Oh my gosh, finally, someone I can talk to about this,
Ashleigh Renard 23:09
right. And I had a guy messaged me yesterday, and he was like, this may not be a compliment, but I just want to tell you, you're like a cool sister who gives really good advice. He was like, really? And I was like, That's exactly how I explained it to people that I give off like this big sister energy. So when people come into my direct messages, they're not creeping on me. They're like, Oh, my God, thank you so much for your video is I saw this one that I finished them and I I finally understand, like, what I needed to do to have more intimacy with my partner. Or, Oh, I finally heard or, Oh, I realized that like, you know, there's this lot. There's this like, light bulb moment. Yes, this light bulb moment. And I don't know if you notice, Sam, but in my videos, I don't even say he shaved man, woman I don't even say I don't I'm just like you and your partner, you and your partner. And then just people fill in the blanks themselves. So when men are watching it, they, they they feel like I'm getting their perspective to Yes. So that's one of the reasons that I wrote keeping it hot. The workbook which comes out on June 14. Yes. Because people were like, well, my newsletter super popular 25,000 people on my on my email list, and a paid newsletter, too. I mean, just people are like hungry for more once they find one of my videos. This is what usually happens. If someone likes a video, then every like 30 seconds for the next 20 minutes. They like another video. Then they follow me and then someone with the same last name follows me. That's usually what happens. They just want more. There's just like, you know, they just want to be like, oh, yeah, we can talk about this. It doesn't have to be full of shame or awkwardness or embarrassment that we do. A lot of people think If you marry the right person sex or just automatically be good, they think everything
Samantha Spittle 25:03
should be good. The sex, the finances, that everything. struggles,
Ashleigh Renard 25:09
everything. And for a lot of shame for a lot of years, I felt shame that, oh, well, if I'm not getting the affection that I want, and then I realized I need and then I realized it's okay for me to need that. I'm not like just I just put so much of my worth in my, in my independence and my self sufficiency. Yeah, that needing anything just made me feel just I could intolerant. Yeah,
Samantha Spittle 25:35
mine is help managing everyone else's feelings. That is what I am like, my journey is like, I am not responsible for everyone's feelings. And I've put all my worth into.
Ashleigh Renard 25:47
You can do that you can make everybody feel fine. Yes. Yeah. Which is really just codependency. It's like codependence see expert, a plus. We are I think, you know, up on the podium. Yeah. So people come in asking about want to talk about feelings. And they just want like a, like a road map, I guess. Yeah. So many, so many things. I mean, it's just listen, so many of us didn't see our parents exercise like great communication in front of us? Or if we did, we didn't see them talk about money. We certainly didn't hear them talk about sex. So it's like, where do you get this information from? All right. So just creating this space. And I asked my audience a lot of questions on my stories. And then I share the responses share the responses. And like 10,000 people count on my stories every night just to just to see what everybody's talking. Yep, to know what's going on. Yeah, to just give people that to just give people that space to just share, share how they're feeling. And it's pretty fantastic. It's pretty fantastic as like, a needy person in denial to create a space where other needy, emotional people can go, like, I need a little, you know, anything where people can support each other.
Samantha Spittle 27:11
It's so true. But the thing is, is that when I heard that you were doing the workbook, it made sense, because because of my journey of like you showed up on my radar, I follow up like, oh, okay, here's some tips. This isn't anything to you know, risks, new risky, you know, so it's in my comfort zone. So like for the listeners, because if they don't follow you yet, like you talk about the blanket on the bed. So if you make your bed everyday people which apparently as adults should do, even though I am not one of those adults, you put your blanket on it. And then
Ashleigh Renard 27:44
we have a dedicated intimacy bed cover. And we actually have to call it a sex blanket, just a huge like cotton tight weave lightweight blanket. And that way we throw it over the bed before we have sex that way the sheet stay clean. We love using lube and body oil. This is something like new during pandemic that we'd never used before to talk about my favorite brand and everything too. But then you can just like lube right up and doesn't stain anything. It just like adds to the sensation adds to the fun of it. Makes it like sort of like an event like you're throwing out a picnic blanket. You don't really know. Yeah, and toys just like easy electronics to incorporate. Hey, my like, you know, my must haves for quickies right, like how to make a quick because sometimes you just want it to be fast and like you don't have to apologize. wanting it to be passive
Samantha Spittle 28:37
plea. Right. And that's why I so it's funny, because that's like, I feel like the Tier one is these are tips to actually start getting it done if it feels like you have these barriers. But you talk about it in the book. And I think I've even seen you talk about it on social media. I know you have because I recognized in the book, is it the 12 hugs a day that your therapist had recommended. And that's the kind of stuff when I say the bait and switch because the thing is, is it's like sex is part of it. And like these tips are huge and needed. But it's like it's also those 12 hugs a day. It's also the connecting emotionally with your partner and saying what your needs
Ashleigh Renard 29:18
are. Let me tell you, let me tell you the first exercise in the workbook is an iceberg. And what I say is hot sex is just the tip of the iceberg. It's like the part you see it's the part like ain't happening not happening memory, but underneath, you have to feel comfortable in your body. You have to feel comfortable loving sex like you have to know it is okay for for for someone like me to like sex. You have to you have to know okay, I I feel comfortable and like I only having the family size that I want like you know like
Samantha Spittle 29:53
you're basically saying we have to work all of our shit out. You
Ashleigh Renard 29:57
have to have all of this shit worked out and if I Hot Sex is a side effect of a healthy relationship. But and also, we can tip that iceberg on its side. And it has been to people saying, Okay, let's make sex better for 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of the couples in my community, it's been a doorway in to then saying, okay, but we don't share responsibilities really well in this house. We don't I, in order to be more in the mood, honestly, like, clean this damn house because I can't do it all the time. I need more support here, I need actually, you know what, I need your support. In me giving an ultimatum to my boss that if I don't get more time off, or more money, I can't work with that job anymore. Because I need to be better taken care of and better fulfilled in all these places, in order to naturally feel filled up and ready to say, Yep, my body deserves pleasure. Yeah, I deserve joy. Yeah, I deserve this connection with someone I love. So it's, it's really a side effect. But we can we can take it and like take it like as an entry point into then figuring out all these other areas where we really want our communication and our connections be better.
Samantha Spittle 31:14
I love that idea of the iceberg on the side. I hadn't I've never that's like a new thought for me. And it's funny, because the common theme I'm seeing in this whole series, that you said it in your book. And actually a friend of mine just said it to me as well, that in all this all the sex stuff is communication. It all is communication. If you want to explore if you want to experiment, whether it's you know, all the things, food, toys, all the things that people like, oh, it might make you uncomfortable. So you have talked about it, then you talk about your book to about that the lifestyle clubs. Those were like the most emotionally healthy places you had been where people actually understand consent. That I think for me is why it was such like, Oh, I've got issues with, as I said, datelines. But it's like, oh, it's not that I have issues with consent, like, oh, okay, like, these are the things that when couples talk about it, it's so much healthier.
Ashleigh Renard 32:11
Absolutely. And that's what I want. And that's why I was willing to tell the story of my incredibly complicated marriage and feeling so feeling so unhappy. And I say in the book, like in my lovely looking life, because I felt bad that I felt unhappy. That is the reason I had to write swing. Yes, two reasons. Two reasons. One, I couldn't believe we lived that crazy ass story and came out in a way better place. Yes, I was like this. This has got to be a book. Actually, Sam, I started writing it as a screenplay, because I thought there's no way I can ever ever admit that this happens with you. Yeah. So I started writing and I got half. First of all, I taught myself how to write a screenplay. Did you know that screenplays are only one page per minute of movie. So like, a standard screenplay would be like 90 to 100 pages. And I thought I can write 90 to 100 pages good. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. So I got halfway through and then I stopped and I put it away. And my husband, man, he kept saying, bid your movie. Why didn't you finish your movie? Anytime he would watch a movie. Anytime I would see a trailer. He's like, none of these are as funny as your movie. You need to finish it? Yes. Like, I know. But I'm not right now. So I just don't I just don't know why. And of course, like any self deprecating, perfectionist, I was like, What is wrong with you that you can't fit? Okay.
Samantha Spittle 33:41
The reason I worked through that?
Ashleigh Renard 33:43
Yeah, the reason I couldn't finish it is because I started sharing just a little bit of my writing online, like so just dipping my toe into like, maybe marriage is hard.
Samantha Spittle 33:58
Just kidding. It's great. work fine. Everything's great.
Ashleigh Renard 34:02
Everything's fine. Like monogamy is hard. Oh, wait, they said that out loud. Anyway, I was like, I'm whatever posted. I'll be like, Oh my god, like the sky is gonna fall. sky didn't fall. I would get like tons of messages being like, Oh my God. Yes. Yes. Marriage. What the hell? Like I'd like to speak to the manager like the one who decided on marriage like. So. I was like, Okay, I'm not the only one. Okay, okay. And then I knew that some people would really see themselves in the story and would find comfort in knowing it really happened? Yes. And they would want to put a face to the story and go, she got through it. She got through it. Wow. Wow. And you know what I did Sam when I was still searching for a literary agent. I was okay, first of all a few things. I was like banking, banking banking on I'm gonna get a literary agent. I'm gonna get like a big five publisher like random house or something? And then I'll know that I have permission to tell the story. And I could feel that it myself and I have left figure skating and left coaching. And I was like, I am gonna play by new rules now, because I've already done it that way for so long. And I know what it's like to go like judges do you like me at do you like me yet? What about now? Okay, so I was like, You know what? No, no, I need to like trickster, all of this and like, put myself in a different situation. I'm not doing life the same way. Yeah. And I didn't Well, I didn't well that way. But I was like, I run myself into the ground. And it always left wanting, wanting, wanting more or like not being able to reach my goal. So I was like, No, this isn't the right, we need to shift this paradigm. So when I was searching for an agent, I put a call out on social media. Hey, my book is done. This is like fall of 2019. Yeah, my book is done. If you share any of my social media posts, this week, I will send you the first chapter. And I'll pick one person at the end of the week, and I'll send them the whole book. The word spreads so quickly, from people who had read the first chapter or read the whole book. Within two weeks, I'd sent out 425 copies of the whole book, the email, email, and like the Word document, okay. It spread so quickly, and people were like, Oh, my God, yes. Oh, my God. Yes, yes. And all of these, I still have albums full of screenshots from responses from people. And this is what I tell other writers to coach other writers and business owners on social media. Someone can tell you, your book is great. You can't believe them. You cannot say yes, my book is great. Unless someone else reaches out. And it's like, So and so told me your book was great. And I read it because they told me I had to read write it. Okay, get that because like, someone may say to you, I loved your book. Yeah, I loved your book. But unless they turned to a friend, just like I was saying, my posts are shared one to one. That's how I That's how my book was shared to. Yeah. So I sent it out to all of these people. Because I was like, You know what, I need to let the cat out of the bag, I need to say, this is my story. This is what happened to me. I'm allowed to tell this even if an agent never signs me. A few months later, I had to agent offers but anyway. But I had to just like, I had to just pull the plug on like that old programming like that old conditioning that I could just autopilot through.
Samantha Spittle 37:37
And the validation like without waiting for others to validate that your story is worthy. That
Ashleigh Renard 37:42
right so and that so and sometimes after I stopped so I stopped sending it out then after like 425 because I was like, Oh, am I gonna like get in trouble with an agent or an editor now like, oh
Samantha Spittle 37:57
yeah, but but about stuff.
Ashleigh Renard 38:00
Even did book club discussions, everything okay? But then, anytime someone would show up in my DMs in crisis, and I don't mean like crisis, like they should call 911 or like, suicide hotline, but they would be like, I signed divorce papers yesterday. But I don't know if I want to file them. I would say give me your email address. Just give me your email address. And I'll just send them the book. And now I have dozens and dozens and dozens of couples who they saw what am I you know, one of them saw one of my videos like and they were like, like it's like their Hail Mary they were like I don't I don't know. What do you like this?
Samantha Spittle 38:43
I know I'm asking this and there is not a one answer. Humor me like what do you think it is like so what's the Hail Mary? It's a Hail Mary we've already established that it's the book is about swing you talk about your visiting you know lifestyle sex clubs, and
Ashleigh Renard 39:03
I say we're the world's worst attempted swingers because we didn't actually like seal the deal at all right? It was just like
Samantha Spittle 39:10
it was like a mystery reading it like what is going to happen
Ashleigh Renard 39:15
right? I know and it's just like epic fail epic fail well, that was sexy but epic fail. I think that's part of part of the appeal part of why people resonate in the book. It was like set out like like guns blazing like on this path and it was like Oh, mess up mess up embarrassment, ringworm on her ass like all of these, like really, really embarrassing stories, so many, so many embarrassing things. So I think people were like, oh, whatever I feel embarrassed about isn't isn't that bad, or it matches whatever right? It's not like an embarrassment competition. As in the story, I just talked so I just it just wrote so honestly, yeah, about Oh, how I really felt like, remember Sam like, so for people who haven't read it yet. When our second we have three kids when our second was born, my husband, man, he started getting this, he had this pain in the middle of his back, right in the middle of his thoracic spine, terrible, terrible, terrible. Turns out, he has a tumor in his spine. And we have to go for these tests to see like, what the hell it is right? And in the book, I tell him years later, that when we found out he had the tumor, my first thought was, oh, my God, what if he dies? And my second thought was, oh, my God, what if, what if he dies? And then I would actually be free to have a fulfilling marriage. Like, I thought in this lifetime, I just wasn't going to get back. I wasn't going to get like that. You know, that wasn't that wasn't the hand I was dealt
Samantha Spittle 40:57
by, and I'm just gonna write it out. I think that is so many women, because I remember that. And my husband and I, we've shared some of our stuff. And we're walking, you know, we've been walking through a lot. And, you know, we have gone through some really hard stuff stuff, I would not have chosen the opposite of a sexy memoir to write, however, and I and I'm, I'm pretty sure that I would say you might agree, like, I wouldn't change it, though. Because to get where we are now to have and that's why reading like, all the talk, you know, you talked about your therapist, and the AHA, as you were having it was like, This is what people need to know, like, we think we go to fix the problem. You said something I like, was writing these notes. Quick before we started. When you were talking about the people you were around, and what you guys kind of going into this, we're thinking you were everyone presented themselves as entering the subculture because their relationship was solid, and they were open minded. They weren't there because something was missing, but rather, because they were open to experiencing more than what is allowed in mainstream partnerships. If you are there, you you're there professing that your mindset of abundance is so much more fun and sexiness to go around, not your fear of scarcity. And like said totally different, but it's like, I could see myself like, No, we're great. We're good. We're gonna I mean, I'm starting a podcast on how to help people. And then it's like, oh, this is a great opportunity to really dig deep, but I don't regret it. You know, I don't. And so for you reading your stuff, it's like, I'm wondering if people, you know, that are at that point where it's that Hail Mary, if hearing someone's the true feelings, and having that safety, because the other thing you said, you actually started it in the beginning of the book, you talked about confessing to your husband that maybe that you're a reluctant monogamous, and you thought it was gonna be this huge conversation with him? And he was kind of like, yeah, isn't everyone like,
Ashleigh Renard 43:02
he's like, no one would pick monogamy if like, they really had a choice. Like, we don't really have a choice in our society. So like, no one would pick it.
Samantha Spittle 43:10
Yeah. Like, why? Why are we and then you guys go through all this stuff. And it's like, you end up talking. And I'm wondering now it's like, I look at what my husband I've been through. And it's like, to have gone through what we've gone through and to be able to have the conversations we have now, which is 100% Honesty, like there is no reservation, like, that's the best thing about when your life, when you just do all the shit, whether it's by choice, that happens for you to all of it. There is such a gift of just you have nothing to lose, you can talk about all the things. And I'm wondering if people like maybe that's part of what it is with your you and your platform and your community and like what we can share with listeners now is it's like you guys, you don't have to wait till this stuff happen. You don't have to wait for things to implode. You don't have to try going down this rabbit hole, or, you know, trying these things. It's like, we're all learning, getting to this place of radical honesty.
Ashleigh Renard 44:11
And when we if we want to get to a place of radical connection, we have to go through the valley of honesty, and it's fucking awkward there. And it's messy. You're just not going to get it. There's no way to get it right. So because this is this is the shift in my thinking I had to adopt to TV still be here, honestly, like really, really, really was like, I thought only that the only thing that was ever good enough was something that was flawless. Thank you figure skating. Thank you my conditioning. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, Wallace is the only way to be good. Anytime there was something that was lacking In my life or in my marriage or in anything, I was like, Oh, how do I gloss that over? Sometimes I might go like say, do you think we can make that a little bit? Do you think maybe we can make that a little better? No. Okay, well,
Samantha Spittle 45:12
let's pretend that I'll just make it work. I'll make it work.
Ashleigh Renard 45:17
Like, have you ever heard that? Have you ever heard the expression that it's a British expression? polishing a turd? Doesn't work still stinks? Like, it still stays. Okay. Yeah. So this, this idea that like, oh, yeah, yeah, it's good or better, it's good or better, especially in social media. Okay, whatever. Good or better, good or better. Like, that's the only way to succeed. And then when everyone's like, your challenges make you stronger. Everyone's like, yeah, that's nice. But know what like, until you live through it and come out the other side. And I am so grateful for a storyteller storytellers who came before me and storytellers. Yeah, every day to go like, here's my messy story. And here's how I made meaning of it. Right? Until you do that, and this is this is a message I get quite often from people is like, if, if you've been cheated on if you've cheated, if this has happened, if that's happened, if there's been any sort of breach, fracture, fracture, fracture in your relationship, and you decide to stay together, and work through it, not just stay together periods together, and work through it, because those are two completely different things. Right? Correct. On the other side, and it never really stops on the other side, it just keeps going. Right. But on the other side of that fracture of that crisis is like, You're not scared about not being perfect anymore. Mm. Already shattered, you might be scared of other shit. But oh, yeah. Being like, a fake. And you know, not actually being able to execute on any of the things you're good at, and having your whole life fall apart. And being miserable, or looking at your kids and going, I am such a shit for being miserable when I have these lovely children, you know, all of like that shame. That shouldn't be shameful, because like mental health, hello is a thing we need to take care of. What once you can drop that fear of not being flawless. Life is so much better. And I can love my kids so much better. Because the only way the only way I can allow them to be whole amazing, annoying, unique humans is if I let myself do the same.
Samantha Spittle 47:39
Yes. And that's how and that's the that's the key because you just said how do I love them because so many women, and dads too, I want to give credit to men too. And however, anyone you know, I think parents because it's however it parents, we want so much to let our kids be who they are and embrace, you know, all their quirks and everything. But once again, this goes back to what we talked about before of how much we're projecting, you know, our own stuff on people. And so it's like, if we're trying to hold it together and to look perfect, and to have our families look perfect. Then of course, we're projecting that on our kids. And so that's why there is I think this gift and like, the fracture, I love how you said that the fracture because it's like, once that's gone, and I think so many people are walking around with that not realizing, and that's what's so hard about when you do share things publicly, you like I said, it's that one and 100 or one and 500 it comes back, because it's all people with their own unprocessed stuff coming back at you. And so I think there is just such a comfort in knowing that, you know, you're not alone with whatever it is you're walking through. And, you know, there's hope on the other side, I think that's why your tagline of like how to rehab a shabby marriage. Just I think people see the sex stuff sex draws us in, you know, that's why this I have a feeling this series will be very highly, you know, listen to because that's, it's fun. But it's like you guys though, it's like it's all part of it though. It's all all
Ashleigh Renard 49:09
it is it's all part of it. And I think that is something that comes up a lot in my my messages, my emails from people is, you know, there's this thing about sex that even makes it different than money that like, because you have to come together like at the same time to do the thing, right? And to come together to pause the other things you're doing. You need to know like the sky will not fall you need to know that like, oh yes, actually my work can't be done for the day. You have to know Oh, I'm my body is worthy of pleasure and my body craves pleasure, even if I push down that craving in myself for so long. And I talk about in the book, you know growing up in figures During weird, weird Body Dysmorphia and food control things, you know, for at least a decade of my life, I hated myself for being hungry. So when we are like limiting our enjoyment, and our like, our bodily sensations that say, oh, I want that. But then we have to just turn it on over here, like so many parts so many life train us out of that, like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, I want to relax. Oh, yeah, I want to feel good in my body. I want to feel pleasure. I want someone to serve me I want you know, like, it's just all of their all of these things in our conditioning that just make them like letting loose in the bedroom.
Samantha Spittle 50:48
A little tricky. Oh, yeah. And as you were saying that I was thinking, well, that's, you know, when we talk about purity culture, and not even the far into purity culture, just wanting to make safe decisions and not, you know, just be put in positions that we are uncomfortable with and things like that. It's like so, I think that you know, especially teenagers, you look at, your hormones are naturally ramping up, but then all the messages are no, no, no, no, no, no, bad, bad, bad. And so you spent so much time I just when you said that about the food, it's like, oh my gosh, that's exactly what sexual desire does. It's weird, you know, Oh, you don't want to be the sex crazed person, or you don't want to be partaking in these activities has, obviously this solution. I mean, for me, I've we've talked about this, like, because of all the shit that gets brought up because of sex stuff. And like the triggers, it's like, no, I'm just gonna put this in a box. Like, this is all it's all bad. It's all bad. It's just easier to make all this stuff bad. And put it in a box.
Ashleigh Renard 51:50
It's like turning down that dial on like, do do I have desire? Nope, mute. Now, it's easier just to know, I'm just tuning out and then it's like, Well, alright, then what would you initiate with your partner? Would you think, oh, I want an orgasm. Right? Right. Right. Right. But it's like, it's like our bodies tell us and that's like in the book, when when I was finally ready to change, like, how I was taking care of myself. Yeah. And a coach instructed me like, take, take one small doable thing each day that you're going to do for yourself. And I decided, Oh, when I feel like I need to go pee. I'm gonna just go pee. Okay. And people always laugh about this. Because how long do you hold it for every day? Because people are like, I'll just put it on a load of laundry. I'll just go pick up the kid drive them back. I'll just make. Right. You know, I was like, no, no, no, do not pass. Go do not collect $200 Stop and go pee. I call it the life changing magic of peeing when you need to be.
Samantha Spittle 52:59
I did that. By the way. That's when I read that. I was like, I started doing that on road trips. Because I used to be like, key when I get gas like one time and now when I have to pee if I'm on a road trip, I pull off the interstate and I go pee because I'm over it.
Ashleigh Renard 53:15
There's no like, Okay, right. Okay, look, let's just talk about pee for another minute here. Okay, because there's this like, toughness, this resilience that you're trying to prove to your bladder.
Samantha Spittle 53:30
Like, what I'm in charge and how bladder?
Ashleigh Renard 53:33
Oh, you're not gonna get your way. Okay, so but for me, I wanted to tune into my intuition. I wanted to tap into my inner knowing I was like, divine work through me giving me all the answers. And it was like scopey, no.
Samantha Spittle 53:57
Bigger. Next thing more next.
Ashleigh Renard 54:00
So I was like, you know, what, if you cannot I call I call it our little meat suits. Right? Okay. We're all here. We're custodians of a meat suit each lifetime. Alright, so I got this one. Her name is Ashley. She's got good hair. She's really needy. Okay, but anyway. She, yeah, I can't go. Oh, she needs to pee. Oh, she's hungry. She's thirsty. Time for bed. You know what? I can't be response. I can't I can't be trusted with anything else. I can't be trusted with anything else. Like really? Basically, just just say you're living on autopilot. Because when something is off, and maybe we should go get a blood test or a scan, your body is telling you telling you telling you telling you telling you something's off, right. But if we're just like, Ah, nope, sorry, I'm making the decisions here. I don't care. I don't care what you say? Or like, what cues you have for me? So how then how then do we know what we like in bed? How do we know how we like our partner to touch us in the kitchen when they come up behind us? How do we know what we know? If we won't even listen to the simplest things
Samantha Spittle 55:26
I was just thinking about with the intuition and kind of women and people, you know, people listening, listening to their bodies, and how we're just so programmed, as you said, to, to just push through. And someone were talking about, you know, divorce that the podcast series, it was, it was on divorce. And a lot of them, you know, it was from their perspective. And so they had found, you know, stuff had come out. And they talked about a couple of them talked about, they had no idea until basically should hit the fan. And all of a sudden, but when they sat with it, obviously did therapy. Once they got real honest, it was like, oh, yeah, there was stuff, but I just kind of kept pushing it aside. And I feel like, you know, start listening to your body ping. And, you know, there's just I know, from my own life, like stuff, like I know logically, the right answer, because of course, when you are a perfectionist, oh, I'm gonna let this thing slide. I'm going to just like talk this here, and if I don't address it, and that's why I think to sex is so interesting, because what we've talked about is kind of the lack of good sex and needing to improve it. But I think there's also that opposite end of the pendulum where there's people who have good sex, but not a good relationship there. Well,
Ashleigh Renard 56:59
you know, that's where we were even in even in the decade that we were so disconnected. We always had great sex. Always. One of the reasons was because I knew that was a surefire way to get connection. And, I mean, this is one of the reasons why I know I'm doing what I'm meant to be doing with like my content and my writing and things like that. Yeah, my favorite way to spend an afternoon as an 11 year old was to corner one of my friend's moms, and sit them down at the table and like, ask them their opinions are all the different kinds of birth control that were available?
Samantha Spittle 57:34
Oh, yeah, that was that one coming into the test
Ashleigh Renard 57:37
the best time ever. So I thought everybody liked the sound. But then I was at my 20 year high school reunion and my friend Jamie's like, Ashley, do you remember when you used to sit down my mom and ask her like, what's better, like condoms or the pill? And Ashley, to know how Catholic she is like, Do you know how Catholic she was that and how Catholic she still is like, that was so embarrassing. And I was like, I thought everybody was having a great time. I thought because the moms would like answer, right? Yeah. They'd be like, I'd ask questions. So they would try to answer honestly. Right? Because I was, I was eager. And I was like, really wanting to know. But I never I never had a hang up about sex. I never did. Until we went through all this in our marriage. And then I felt so I felt so ashamed that I wasn't just fucking grateful for my life. I just felt so ashamed for just needing more than I had, like, just needing Yeah, that then then I was like, oh, and maybe I'm a dirty whore. And this and bla bla bla, then it was just like, the shame shitstorm Yeah. And I was alone in that, like, almost no one in my life knew. And I was alone. And it was dark. And I was alone. And it was dark. And I was just like, What do I do? What do I do? What do I do? And then therapy, and we're just like, really pulling back my energy into myself, and just pulling it away from my kids and my husband and being like, Wait, yeah, we got to make mama better here. Like, what are we going to do? And then when I started coming out the other side, I was like, Oh, this is what I need. And I can actually feel confident in saying, this is actually what I want in our marriage. And I don't really think we can do it, because we've never been able to do it. But like, this is what I want for me and for our kids. And, you know, that's I really got to the point where I was excited about divorce. I was like, You know what, I don't want to be dishonest with our kids. So if we can't figure out how to have like a great loving marriage, then we say to them, listen, Mommy and Daddy were so good at some things. Like, we're great at figuring out finances together. Like we need to shoot kids. You are smart, and we're great co parents, but relationships like I hope we learned from you. I hope we learned from you someday. And we get to like See good relationships modelled? Because like, we couldn't really figure that out. Yeah. And then when I came from that place where like I really, really, really meant it, it wasn't an ultimatum, it wasn't anything. Like in like, you know, just an awareness and honesty like this, this is where I'm not I'm no longer willing to live things that aren't true anymore.
Samantha Spittle 1:00:20
Like, and it was that freedom I think like that was part of that freedom of you've already had the crack now. So it's like, okay, right?
Ashleigh Renard 1:00:29
It's like, right, I can't pretend to myself anymore that I'm flawless and perfect. I can't like nope, no, not true. And I can't pretend that with my husband or my kids anymore, because our kids saw all of it. And honestly, I, I explained parts of it to them as it was happening, like in age appropriate ways. Because this, this is how we can raise a generation of kids don't who don't have as much to unpack, we all have confusing situations we live through. If we can have someone an adult, preferably who can go, wow, that was hard. And was that scary? And what do you think about that? Process is hard. There we go. But when someone goes, there's nothing really wrong here.
Samantha Spittle 1:01:16
Look around.
Ashleigh Renard 1:01:17
There's nothing wrong. Let's keep going don't talk about any more than they're like, Wait, every sensor in my whole body was like wrong now. And. And when someone just goes, Yeah, that was like so raw. And they're like, Yeah, that's right. Yes. Okay. It just gets memory. It's like trauma, traumas, like, you know, memories that can't get filed in the right place. Right? Yeah, that's
Samantha Spittle 1:01:42
what I've learned, like, I love with trauma, learning that it's anything like our body can emotionally process. And that way we take the labels and the judgments away, it doesn't we're not comparing whose stuff is worse, it's like, so yeah, being able to walk through that. And I That's why just kind of wrapping it up. It's like, I think about how much we're all carrying around how much we're projecting into these situations into our marriages. I mean, our marriage is a, any, you know, any relationship is just a perfect opportunity for all of our stuff to come out. And, you know, I just like said, just kind of with your book, too. I just, it's so you know, and you said just now to like, you didn't have the hang ups with sex. And I think that's why for me, it was so interesting reading it, because there was this freedom of, I definitely have some hang ups about it. And I was able to like an untangle my hang ups. Throughout the process, I mean, of all these conversations, and while reading your book, and like to find the goodness in there is just, it's kind of this thing again, and again. And again, our own like comes down to our own stuff working out, as your partner does that to you can build those connections. And I love that idea of the iceberg. Because with sex, you know, sex is the benefit. You know, the way I've always looked at as, like, I want our live voice said like, when our kids leave the house, I don't want to just survive being married. Like, I want to actually not just even love each other. I want to like each other, like genuinely like each other too. Yeah. And isn't it a super benefit. And, you know, we can also have like really good sex, and also even better or not like all of it together and also be emotionally fulfilled. But it feels like a pipe dream, it feels too much. But once you start working on it, it's like coming together.
Ashleigh Renard 1:03:33
I mean, it's really much simpler than most people could imagine. They think like, a like, it's like a Mount Everest, right? And that's why in 15 to 30 seconds at a time, I just want to say, Hey, have you considered this? Hey, what about this, try this sign up for my email a couple 100 words. Right? Just those little like prompts and suggestions. And it's like the same thing with helping teenagers feel like we're on the same cache line fight about here. No big deal. No big deal. We can all we can all work this out. Because actually, we're on the same team team, right? Every married couples on the same team. And it can feel like you're working towards common goals. Nope. You're just coming at it from different angles, and you're missing each other. And you're missing each other. So that's why I want to give some just and I mean, some people will love like, the you know, Brene Brown or the Goldman's or love languages, right? Like they're all these things that like I love, but I'm like, You know what, let's just start with sex. Let's just talk about we want to have better sex. Boop, all right, the knees. You don't have to wait.
Samantha Spittle 1:04:51
Like that's the whole thing. Like, you don't have to have like yes do the deep work. But you have to Utah loop. And let's let's just get to
Ashleigh Renard 1:05:02
live in a blanket and get like, get a vibrator. And just like, there we go, things have shifted a little
Samantha Spittle 1:05:09
better. Right? That's the next thing.
Ashleigh Renard 1:05:13
That's the thing. When we experience these tiny successes, then we're just more willing to come together.
Samantha Spittle 1:05:18
And come together. Sorry.
Ashleigh Renard 1:05:21
Come together. There we go, baby one.
Samantha Spittle 1:05:23
Thank you. Thank you for your book. Thank you for you the workbook. Thank you for being willing to share your story. I've always I say this all the time. Not everyone is meant to share their story publicly. But for people that do I'm extremely grateful because we all learn so much from everyone's story. And so I just truly thank you, thank you for sharing today. And I just you know, I do highly recommend reading your book I have not read a book and so long and I just like blew through it and like said for me, it's the best bait and switch so I'm like guys, there's so much good stuff in here. So yeah, thank you so much. How can people get in touch with you and of course get all of your amazing
Ashleigh Renard 1:06:03
tips Yeah. Ashley Renard on Instagram and it's Ashley with tons of extra letters. It's Ashley which is spelled as h l e. IG. H so find me on Instagram. Send me a DM say hello I respond to every message. And then you'll see there I have newsletter I have tons of resources. You'll see my Lincoln bio people who get swing it's available everywhere books are sold. Oh and I'm not sure when this is going to air Sam but keeping the hot keeping it hot. The workbook is available for pre order and it comes out June 14. If you order before June 14 You can be entered to win I'm giving away a super sexy giveaway, a super sexy trip for two so airfare three nights accommodations, luxury resorts, spending money, and like a like a menu of sexy like excursions that you can pick from with your partner so it