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More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a new podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript:
Welcome to the more to the story podcast I'm glad that you have come along for today's episode, where we're gonna talk about a very important theme. And before we get to it. I want you to know that this podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical Seminary, where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches, and we have had a surge here at Wesley Biblical Seminary, as we have been. One of the first seminaries approved
Andy Miller III: to serve the Global Methodist Church, where we've added more than 300 global Methodist church pastors to our student body in the last year, on top of serving people from a variety of denominations in independent churches all around the world. And so we have bachelor's master's doctoral degrees, in addition to several lay initiatives, one that I think it would be really interesting for people called the Wesley Institute.
You can find out more about these programs@wbs.edu. Also, I'm thankful to Wpo development. They're a group that comes alongside of churches, nonprofits schools and helps them develop strategic plans and leading them towards capital campaigns. I've worked with them in the past. They've helped more than 250 organizations all across
Andy Miller III: Canada and the United States, and so I recommend them to you. Their CEO Keith water says if you don't know where you're going, any path will get you there.
Andy Miller III: and he helps you got he and his team help you develop those type of plans. So you can find out information about Wpo in the show. In the show notes to my podcast also, I just wanna make sure. People are aware that part of the way that the podcast keeps on going is that I have an email list. And I would love for you to sign up for my email list, where you get regular information from me, not just about podcasts, but sometimes some other information that I'm able to share of of insights I've had, or things that are coming up that I can
Andy Miller III: bring to your attention. You knew if you sign up for my email list at Andy Miller, the third.com. That's Andy Miller Iiicom. I'll send you a free tool called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching, so that that resource comes to you. I'll send it to you as soon as you sign up for my email list. And
Andy Miller III: when you go to my website at Andy Miller third.com. There's several other things that are there, small group curriculum that's available that a lot of people are using that Sunday school courses. There's a course on heaven. There's a course on the little book of Jude. These are things that you could use for just for 6 to 7 weeks in your church, or for a small group Bible study. So you can find information about that at Andy Miller, the third.com. Alright, I am so glad to welcome into the podcast
Andy Miller III: podcast Roger Helen, who has the author of a new book. I'm gonna hold it up for those of you who are watching on Youtube and by the way, those of you watching on Youtube, I hope you'll subscribe. And I hope people will share and and rate and review the podcast on apple itunes that helps us. But Roger is the author of this new book, pursuing God's presence, a practical guide to daily renewal and joy. He is the Prairie Ambassador, for
Andy Miller III: so the evangelical fellowship of Canada. He lives in the Calgary area, which, in case you don't know, is just north of Montana, but
they might maybe say Montana is south of Calgary. But anyhow, Roger, welcome to the podcast
Roger Helland, EFC: oh, man, I'm excited. Just listen to you. I wanna come to Wesley, live that is fantastic. I am so delighted to join your podcast and
Roger Helland, EFC: dialogue around the things of God. And and this book that I've written that's been in my heart deeply, deeply, deeply, for a long, long time, and II had to get it out. So
Andy Miller III: well, well, we take it, Wesley Biblical seminar. We'd love to have you. And I imagine that even after this, podcast we'll have more opportunities to be connected. And and you say this like, it's been in you for a while. There's definitely a sense in this book that it's a a life work, so to speak. It's a it's your own journey. But it's a there's a this is something you bring up a lot the wait. There's a way to it to the message. Of course
Andy Miller III: the idea of God's presence is a weighty topic, and we'll maybe we'll talk about that. But I there is this sense of like, I've got to get this out. I've got to get this information out. Tell me about before we get into details. Tell me about the process of working on this book.
Roger Helland, EFC: Yeah. So over the years, you know, I've been privileged to work in in a variety of different churches and denominations. I was a vineyard pastor. I was a Mennonite brethren, pastor as a Christian Missionary alliance pastor. I was a Baptist district minister overseeing churches. I've been an adjunct professor in a variety of different theological schools in the Us. And Canada, and I've written, you know.
Roger Helland, EFC: 7 bucks over the years. And so you know, my heart has always been to be a practical theologian and to pursue God and Scripture and spirit in a way that's life giving that I love academic. But I love the applied, and so I guess, over the years as I've
Roger Helland, EFC: experienced and learned, and research, and observed and reflected on the nature of you know what is spiritual life, what is the life of holiness. What is the life of a scriptor fed spirit led encounter with God that is transformational and missional.
Roger Helland, EFC: I've you know, written in a variety of different settings. I've experienced a a lot of different settings and context, such as I've sort of captured. I think the core of what
Roger Helland, EFC: is maybe lacking in a lot of our environments, and has to do with the manifest presence of God. When we encounter His presence, when we encounter the the relational power and personhood of who God is as a Trinitarian, father, Son, spirit, and all is glory and power.
Roger Helland, EFC: I think that is, from my point of view and from Scripture I try to demonstrate that in a variety of different ways that we're called to seek.
Roger Helland, EFC: we're called to experience, and we're called to host. The presence of God. And I think that's the the life giving ingredient. The is the essential sort of
Roger Helland, EFC: components of flourishing churches and church life, so that that sort of in the big picture of why I've tried to capture.
Roger Helland, EFC: Biblically and practically what it means to pursue God
Andy Miller III: in in this comes in part, obviously from your own journey, and I love how you start the book. When you say I want. I want to hear your voice. I imagine when I read it, how you'd say it. But people say, What's your background response? I got one word. When people ask me what's my background? It's pagan, right. I grew up in. By the way, I'm an American, and I've got dual citizenship here in Canada. But
grew up in Southern California. And so the Jesus Revolution movie sort of
Roger Helland, EFC: depicts the generation that I grew up in I was saved on the fringes of the Jesus movement. California Beach bomb. You know we were the hippies, long hair, and we're love, and you know the Civil rights movement. Vietnam war. The turmoil United States back then, was just over the top. And so I grew up in Southern California. In that environment I was a pagan. I was a drug dealer. I was hooked on.
Roger Helland, EFC: you know drugs and alcohol, immorality, and just the whole lifestyle. I grew up in a non Christian family. We never went to church like Jesus Christ, swear word in our family, and and yet
Roger Helland, EFC: the Lord had his hand on me, and so I realized I never was seeking forgot, and I tried what I talk about in the book is, I go from pagan to pastor to prayer, or to present? So from pagan master, there's this journey of faith whereby a friend of mine got saved during the Jesus Revolution times, and I was in us army at the time Vietnam war was on. I got sent to nom.
Roger Helland, EFC: but when I came home on Christmas leave one Friday night I was stolen on Lsd. Believe it or not, I was peeking on acid. It's like 100'clock at nights on a Friday night, cold winter night in December, and my high school buddy that I used to deal drugs with. He'd he'd become a Jesus freak.
Roger Helland, EFC: They call him back then, and he started
Roger Helland, EFC: talking to me about Jesus and sharing the Gospel, and the Holy Spirit got through.
Roger Helland, EFC: penetrated my darkness, and I was alumin from the inside out, and I looked straight up into the Glendora Mount, you know, sky just east of Los Angeles, where I grew up
Roger Helland, EFC: and I looked up into sky. And I said, Okay, Jesus of your real. I wanna believe that was the first prayer I'd ever prayed as a pagan. Well, Jesus took me up with my offer. A couple of weeks later I was back at Fort Lewis, Washington, after I finish boot camp, and I was on on assignment.
Roger Helland, EFC: and II felt I was alone in the barracks, and and I was. I think I think it was reading the book of John, my stepdad, giving me a leather covered blue leather, covered King James version, violet I was reading through that, and I felt this in rush of joy, and I look back now I know it was my personal Pentecost. I know that's the visitation of the presence of God that was so compelling that I knew I had a change of my life, and I was converted.
and I launched on a pathway of following Jesus to this day. And so it really started
Roger Helland, EFC: back then. And I've had these encounters over the years that I try to document in in my book. Some are subtle, some are not so subtle.
Roger Helland, EFC: and it, it set me on a new trajectory whereby ended up going to Baba College and to Seminary, and then back to Canada, and
Roger Helland, EFC: I ended up here in Canada for the last 45 years, and have been a pastor, a district minister, and theological teacher and writer. So that's kind of that overview.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, it's interesting. You mentioned, like, obviously go from pagan to pastor. But I'm interested. People might not always see the contrast it's made when you say you go from pastor to prayer aren't pastor's prayers. You know. What's the difference?
Not a lot
Roger Helland, EFC: fine. I think there's there's a real
Roger Helland, EFC: lack of prayer in in spiritual leadership these days. II know there's always exceptions, but generally there, there's there's just a lack of prayer, for there's lots of preaching so I went from Pagan to Pastor. I was called. There was a visitation. Lord, I was. I was in a library as a
Roger Helland, EFC: as a serving part time as a as a custodian. While I was going to college, and I felt this presence in the library. I'm going like Whoa! And I just stood there silent. I went. I looked around, and II it was gone, you know it's like, and I felt this inner call. II can't put into words, but I knew that the Lord was redirect me out of Southern California to come to Canada.
Roger Helland, EFC: and
Roger Helland, EFC: a couple, you know. Year later I was on my way due north to go to Vancouver to study a small Bible college from there was directed to Seminary. There. I was back to Canada and got involved in a church plant in the corner British Columbia
Roger Helland, EFC: and was also teaching in a Bible college. That's how I ended up becoming a pastor, from pagan to pastor, but then from pastor to prayer, or the more that I was in pastoral work, the the more that I saw that prayer was a lacking component, not only in the lives of people and other pastors, but I, even in denominations and minister organizations, good on preaching, good on worship, good on
Roger Helland, EFC: program. And you know, offering a lot of different inputs and such. But there was just a lack of per. And so people like Daniel Henderson came along. People like
Roger Helland, EFC: Ian Bowes and Andrew Murray and Re Tori, and and you know, different writers who
Roger Helland, EFC: really put a lot of energy into the context of of life, giving prayer that we have to devoted to prayer, not just devotion to the word act 6, 4, became a primary text from Scripture that the apostles said, We're gonna devote ourselves to prayer
Roger Helland, EFC: and to the ministry of the world. So
Roger Helland, EFC: you know, lots of ministry of the words, but I found that the more that I got sort of
Roger Helland, EFC: frustrated, and and as a pastor, then as a district leader, I realized, you know.
Roger Helland, EFC: there's a real lack. And so II felt a real call, and in partition a lot of ways that God was inviting me into a journey to be devoted to prayer. Devote yourself to pray, being watchful and thankful. Say more. That's using. Act 6, 4. There's this, there's this intentionality, this this persistence about the life of prayer.
Roger Helland, EFC: and the more that I got involved in prayer, the more it took on a life giving force in my own life, and I began to experience presence of God more and more, praying for His presence, experiencing presence. You know, John, once he said this, that the neglect of prayer is a grand hindrance to holiness.
Roger Helland, EFC: That's an amazing statement that really caught my attention. And I thought, Wow, what is the connection between prayer and holiness? There's a direct connection there, and and the spirit life. You know the prayer for the life prayer, and I mean, Calvin, he said, that prayer is the chief exercise of faith. I mean that that's astonishing. And so I got captured by a life of prayer, but it led to
Roger Helland, EFC: prayer, being the avenue by which
Roger Helland, EFC: presence of the Lord, the glory of God became more prominent. You know you look the history, revivals, renewal movements, and all that, and and
Andy Miller III: people keep pointing to the kavod. The glory of God! You know you think of the Asbury connected to that, and it's interesting. I wanted to bring that up, but I knew I knew it would come up at some point. But now, it's just as good time as any issue you kind of like mentioned kavod. So you again. I love this shift that you described from pagan to pastor, pastor to prayer, prayer to present
Andy Miller III: it's interesting, that's and as you talk, and the way you describe Kavode.
Andy Miller III: it just reminds me of what I heard now. I have family who are at both the 1970 and most recent revival and outpouring sometimes use different language. And I did it. I wasn't old enough to be yeah, that I wasn't born 1970. But then, also I wasn't able to make my way to Willmore on site last time. But
Andy Miller III: the the way your book I just feel like, yeah, that seems to be this understanding of presence is so unique
Andy Miller III: and weighty, but it's obviously something to pursue and something you experience as a result of your this shift in your life as you start to make more of a move toward a prayer filled life. It led to presence. Right? Yeah. And so I'll come back to as we're in a second cause. I always zoom call. Yesterday, was Zack Mccreev, who was the travel speaker. So Billy Graham is connected to him, and I'm connected with Billy Graham, and so
Roger Helland, EFC: we were on a zoom call with him an hour. Zoom call where they sorry. What do you mean by connected to Billy Graham, like the Billy Graham Center or Billy Graham Evangelistic Association of Canada. So I'm well partnered with them. We're doing different initiatives across the country that we can talk about.
Roger Helland, EFC: Yeah. So, Zack, we had about 80 pastors from across the country that joined in that, you know. Zack sort of peel back sort of behind the scenes. Stuff, and I'll come back to that. But the key verse that is really sort of driven this book, but also driven my life really. And I'm preaching it wherever I go is is found in some 105, 4. It's a really tight, short verse, but basically it says, this, seek the Lord in his strength
Roger Helland, EFC: seek his presence continually.
Roger Helland, EFC: Bam and so I try to unpack that and develop it throughout the book. And so there's 2 different Hebrew words, seek the Lord and his strength, so that word, the first word seek means to be the path towards the Lord. Really to inquire, seek him. You know there's intentionality around it. Seek the Lord in his strength. So a lot of people seek his power, but not as person right. I think we gotta seek the Lord in terms of him as
Roger Helland, EFC: a person, not just as a deity who provides power. But then the second phrase, Sikh is present different Hebrew word, but it means to really discover, obtain, and look for.
Roger Helland, EFC: So you think of seeking fine you think of.
Roger Helland, EFC: You know parents and grandparents play in hide and seek with their kids. There's a sense of adventure. There's a sense of exploration. There's a second sense of of of a thrill that you. You're you're on a pursuit. It's like losing your wallet or losing your your computer or losing your you
Roger Helland, EFC: know your light, your your wallet, or whatever, and or you'll lose a child when you're in a playground or at a ball or something. What happens? You're all in E. Everything is is discarded. That is the focal point of of everything, and that's exactly what these words are getting at
Roger Helland, EFC: that we are to seek the Lord. And his face so the low, low, the word there is literally his face, the pony, his presence. And so there's this relational overview that Scripture provides. That for me has been the defining characteristic of life and God that is caused a flourishing and a passion inside of me that, I think, is absolutely essential for renewal and revival. Now let's come back to Asbury.
So, as we know
Roger Helland, EFC: chapel service, ordinary preaching. So preaching didn't ignite the the outpouring, and we know history revival. It's usually prayer that ignites through the the revival renewal right? And behind the scenes there's usually confessional repentance. There's brokenness calling out to God for seeking the presence of Lord, that's what's happening. So Zach Mcgrebs gets done with his preach on on Romans 12, 8 to 11, or whatever it was.
Roger Helland, EFC: and about 19 students stay behind.
Roger Helland, EFC: and they're just kinda hanging out and they're
Roger Helland, EFC: seized by the Lord's presence. Really, they they couldn't leave. They were impacted by presence. It came out of the message, but it was deeper than that, and what we learned is that there was already people praying for a visitation of the Lord. And there's, you know.
Roger Helland, EFC: people see? And these students were confessing sin and and coming forward repentance. And pretty soon they're starting to text and sending out, you know, messages around the campus, and
Roger Helland, EFC: 100 people start coming back to the campus. And then it fills back up. In the next couple of days there's 15 other people there and tick. Tock.
Roger Helland, EFC: Zack says, is the main social media platform that really went viral across the world. And now people are flying all over the world to get the will. More people lining up for 8 h to get into Hughes auditorium. But here was, and it wasn't fancy preaching. It wasn't fancy worship. It wasn't personality driven into that fact. They really worked overtime worked hard to really diminish. Sort of you know, the sort of the name brand
Roger Helland, EFC: draw the draw was presence.
Roger Helland, EFC: there was humility, there was holiness, you know. Holiness under the Lord is that tag over the or the auditorium stage.
Roger Helland, EFC: and Craig Kiener. He actually does some great podcasting on this. And there's different ones there that they do. You know, there's a
Roger Helland, EFC: yeah you know, different interviews that they've done. Now, where they really documented what actually happened and what actually happened is that the presence of God was so strong. People actually stood outside and got on their hands and knees even on the lawn. It's been cold in the winter, freezing cold.
Roger Helland, EFC: What is that? How many times do we have people lining up for 6 h to get into our churches. We're gonna be just if I can't get in, I'll just lean on my on my knees out and stay out front. It was presence, it was. It was so strong that it created healing and holiness and confession, repentance and deliverance, and a whole manner of of outcomes that were fruitful, there were fruits of repentance.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yeah, this is what's it interesting is, you know you and I, where I served as a local church pastor for 15 years. Want to create environments, you know. Here I'm using anything but the word presence. When I say that you know you create this situation where you want there to be
Andy Miller III: opportunities for people who are inquiring to come to faith. And you know by God's grace, and because of the work of His provenant grace. By the power of the Holy Spirit, people come to faith, and you're thankful for, and they get get disciple. But at the same time you look at what happens. I happen at the outpouring, and there's like this. It's almost like we don't have to do the work we do. We do the the, the presence
Andy Miller III: itself does the work, and it made me more aware that I need to, by praying for revival
Andy Miller III: for praying, for presence that takes a bit of the load off of me with a in in my cleverness, with trying to get people into a position. Where, then they'll make a decision. It's so much more promising. And you work through this. I really appreciate this in your book is that you work through several layers of of how presence can be a part of our life and produce joy. But you kind of you walk through.
Andy Miller III: Not to use just a seminary word. But so to your logical framework, like through salvation and holiness, how presence needs to be a part of how we talk about what salvation is right. This is. This is in part what the call is, and why we want revivals, why we want God's presence to be really felt.
Roger Helland, EFC: Yeah. And so what I try to show from Scripture and and practical way is, how can how do we
Roger Helland, EFC: seek experience host? God's presence in our personal life in the life of our families, our home, you know marriage. How do we, in our discipleship? In terms of abiding in Jesus and and experiencing his life, giving presence. But within our churches, within our communities, you know, leading to revival and renewal and such. And I try to offer, you know, different
Roger Helland, EFC: practices with, you know, practicing the awareness and presence of God and Scripture learning and living and applied, you know, prayerfulness that we're talking with, and to God, and communion and connection with him, and a life of holiness. And so I try to trace also, I think you know, in terms of salvation history. You start the Garden of Eden? I mean
Roger Helland, EFC: it. It it's the so. The Eden is a sanctuary of God. It's it's sort of the the showcase for presence, you know, so God's presence is walking through the garden, and it's like, Oh, and Adam and Eve I mean they're
Roger Helland, EFC: fallen, and now they're afraid. And so he covers them. And so we know the story. And so you know the salvation. History invites us to understand the nature of the holy God who comes to dwell with his people. Right? So how does he first do well with his people creates this tent tabernacle, and they're camping out in the wilderness. Okay. So the glory of God to come out is strong. You know. You've got the fire and the cloud, and you got Sinai. And and there's all this shock at all that goes on. It's all about the presence of Lord, it was so strong
Roger Helland, EFC: it was compelling. The Hebrew word is kabote. I love the word. It's one of my favorite words. What's what's behind that word like? What? What is it that that we might miss in our translations? Yeah, it's hard to translate it. You know it's like Shalom is peace. Well, yeah, but that's not enough. You know. How do you get it? Punch a bunch of words in there to fill it out. Commodes. What are those words? We translate it as glory.
Roger Helland, EFC: Well. glory is an abstract word. Glory is like radiance, and and you know.
Roger Helland, EFC: light. And and yeah, that's the manifest glory of God. But the Hebrew cover really means the weight of his
Roger Helland, EFC: presence. It's it's the it's the magnificence of of his personhood that, you know, we say somebody really carries a lot of weight, or their words carry a lot of weight or their teaching and preaching. What do we mean? We mean, they're significant. They're important. They're, you know, they've got authority, and they've got a sort of glorious wealth to what they are and what they
Roger Helland, EFC: present. And so Kavod really captures all that, and a whole lot more. So. So glory, the glorious, manifest presence of God is capturing word. Kovote. It means God Himself. Really it. It's the glory of God. And so
Roger Helland, EFC: His glory comes to the tabernacle. And what happens. It's just like the priest. They're consecrated, it fills the glory, the cloud, and all that, and they can hardly talk and walk. And that's that's what happens when the glory of God shows up
things happen.
Roger Helland, EFC: But I wasn't content with a temporary
Roger Helland, EFC: tabernacle to pat around in the wilderness. You know. Temple came along right? So Jerusalem, that's the place of presence. So we're gonna go up to Jerusalem. We're gonna worship God. The covot of God is manifested within his temple site. Right? That's the place of Deity. God was never content with just a fixed
Roger Helland, EFC: building in Jerusalem. The ultimate
Roger Helland, EFC: person to whom all that was pointing to typologies. Of course, Jesus, he's a tabern, he tabernacled among us. We've seen His glory right John one. And so Jesus is now the embodied manifest incarnational temple kavod of God on earth.
Roger Helland, EFC: God wasn't S satisfied with that either. So when Jesus ascended, of course He sent the Spirit, and now the Church is the tabernacle, the temple, the living temple of God, that houses His presence, His glory. It's fantastic. But then that's not enough. When we get to the Book of Revelation. Guess what comes down from him. The New Jerusalem comes down to earth, and now God, a dwelling of God, is with His people forever. So God's presence has always been
Roger Helland, EFC: at the center of social.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Roger Helland, EFC: that that's where that's where we're headed. where God is living with His people.
Roger Helland, EFC: Right? He, and God has been homeless at times, and he's not happy. Being homeless. He he wants to live with his people, and and we take up residence in him. And so all this language about in Jesus and residence, location residing in Him, the abiding presence of God, the Spirit in us that's all around theology of presence that I try to develop.
Roger Helland, EFC: We're we're walking, talking people of the presence.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I love. And I love your very simple definition of the church. That that, you know, you could say you could come up with a sociological definition. But you just say it's a habitation of kavode. It's a habitation of the premises. This is what the church is. Not not a group of not our, you know. I I've come up with some strong mission statements, branding promises, Logos and the like, you know, and I'm not saying that we shouldn't do any of those type of things.
Roger Helland, EFC: But what is the Church. This is the place for the presence, the presence is absolutely.
Andy Miller III: What do you? What are some things that pastors and church leaders can do with this model. I mean you, you. You set that out as the basis of what a presence centered church is. But what are a few of those practices that somebody could take and immediately start to implement like they're here, they're here and you speak. And like, we're thinking about this weightiness of kavod, the presence, the glory of God being present.
Andy Miller III: But what are some things that should change?
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's a great question. One is. So we gotta really define what's purpose of our gathering.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Roger Helland, EFC: I would say, it's just seek the presence of God. Right? How do we do that? Well. there, there's where the rub comes. We tend to do it through singing and sermons.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Roger Helland, EFC: yeah, when you're back up.
Roger Helland, EFC: Now, I know there's liturgical traditions where they bring in Scripture reading and more personal. And II wanna applaud that. So I talk about spirit
Roger Helland, EFC: Scripture and sacrament. So I'm I'm all in for sacramental theology and experience and Scripture and spirit and worship, and all liturgy all of that. But it's all to be choreographed towards seeking the presence of God. Now here's here's a foundational theological.
Roger Helland, EFC: I think, way in which to demonstrate this. So when Jesus says.
Roger Helland, EFC: and he's in the Temple site, remember, the temple site is the
Roger Helland, EFC: the House of Deity. It's the, it's it's the residence, or where the the gods live in the temple. So God housed himself temporarily in Jerusalem.
Roger Helland, EFC: in the temple, and so at Herod's temple now, and so Jesus walked. City he goes. You know my house should be a per house of prayer.
Roger Helland, EFC: not identies. It was identies that got all corrupted. My my house, my temple, the place of my presence, is another way to translate, that
Roger Helland, EFC: is to be a place of prayer.
Roger Helland, EFC: Now.
Roger Helland, EFC: at least in the traditions I walk in, and I and I love preaching. I love worship, but
Roger Helland, EFC: well, a a lot of our churches lack prayer within the context of their gatherings we put a strong emphasis, show me a seminary.
Roger Helland, EFC: Show me a seminary that has prayer as a required course for all its students.
Roger Helland, EFC: Theology. Yeah. Biblical studies. Yes, Greek and Hebrew.
Roger Helland, EFC: Yes, responsible for curriculum. Oh, goodness! I'm feeling the burn.
Roger Helland, EFC: You better dude. Now listen.
Roger Helland, EFC: I wasn't trying to get you on the seminary. Stay with me on this. What happens is we? Oh, it's in spiritual formation. Oh, no, no, no!
Roger Helland, EFC: - I've taught a lot of spiritual probation of it. You know, whatever I and that prayer is usually a subset in spiritual information. I'm going. - that's not good enough. If you look at Scripture. Prayer is prominent.
Roger Helland, EFC: There's over 650 prayers in the Bible.
Roger Helland, EFC: apart from the Book of Songs, right? And pray wherever Tim Killer says this, wherever God is, prayers, prayers universal.
Roger Helland, EFC: And and yet in our theological curriculums.
Roger Helland, EFC: show me a school that has prayer as a required course. I don't know of it.
Roger Helland, EFC: Okay, I'm just saying, let me tell you what we do, just because I know that the person on the other side of my wall who teaches spiritual formation. He's gonna say, Andy, why didn't you say if he listens this? I just wanna make sure. And Matt Friedman knows I'm coming in. Here's what we do
Andy Miller III: at Western Biblical Information classes. Everybody is required, then, to have an hour of quiet time of prayer and a Bible. No devotionals. You can't even read your book. Your book doesn't count.
Andy Miller III: but you have to do that, and if if you can't get a higher grade than what your devotional and prayer life is, but but I know I just wanted to acknowledge, and and I have people who, as the Dean, I have people who come to me and are mad about their grades be, but they're honest about their prayer and devotional type. Now I know it's not the same. We need to force on prayer. You're right. Okay, but let me say this about that.
Roger Helland, EFC: Don't know how to lead per gatherings.
Roger Helland, EFC: A lot of our pastors are not devoted to prayer. They're devoted to preaching. They're devoted to worship and homiletics and all the different inputs that II went to Dallas Seminary. So I love. Okay, I love preaching, but if it doesn't have spirit on, it's not gonna work. Andrew Murray, Ian bounds all right. They all say.
Roger Helland, EFC: if you don't have a prayerful life, you're not gonna have the unction in the preaching.
Roger Helland, EFC: So there, there's a disconnect there. So what I would say in terms of practical, we've got to restore as a central practice in the life of our churches on Sunday mornings. You gotta somehow work with the worship teams and the preachers and say, Look, we gotta cut back on how much we do. We gotta bring prayer in as a central feature every single time we get together. That is one practical way to shift it.
Roger Helland, EFC: And there's lots of resources on how to create really good prayer. We want good presence center, not just
Roger Helland, EFC: going through lists. And you know how wing in it is the way it's usually done. That's one practical, there's other suggests. But that that'll shift the culture of the church, and you've got a captive audience. Don't wait till Wednesday, midweek per meeting, or Friday night or Saturday. You know a lot of people. They don't show up. David Butts says this reason a lot of Christians don't go to church per meeting is because they've been the church per meetings.
Roger Helland, EFC: They lack presence. They don't lack the quality and the energy they don't draw. Why? Because it's not Scripture fed and spirit let often, you know. Good, well intentioned people in the duty bound they'll be there, but by and large pastors delegate prayer.
Roger Helland, EFC: They don't lead prayer, they delegate it to people who are really into it can't do that.
Roger Helland, EFC: Jesus. My house should be house of prayer, not a house of preaching or worship. It's a house. Watch the ministry of Jesus in the Book of Luke, and acts primarily, Luke. He showcases Jesus as a praying Savior. He's a young adult, remember, he's in his early thirties.
Roger Helland, EFC: young adult, for all you millennials, and and Gen. Z out there. Jesus was a young adult Savior. Just think about that. He prayed to the Father early in the morning, late at night he prayed, everywhere he went. He was a missional Savior, who, you know, was activated by the spirit, the spirit and prayer, or direct connections that Luke showcases that other gospel writers don't, and then it's carried on the Book of Acts. The Book of Acts is a praying church, Jack. We're a talking church
Roger Helland, EFC: whole. We've got to be a praying church.
Roger Helland, EFC: and that will activate presence that will activate presence over time if we cultivate a culture
Roger Helland, EFC: in our churches.
Roger Helland, EFC: Oh, I can see
Andy Miller III: I really appreciate it. Now, yeah, let's get back to a seminary piece. What? What would a prayer, a course on prayer? What would we do? How how do we? How can a seminary change its strategy?
Roger Helland, EFC: So I teach attendance theological summary? And this is one of the things that I do. I bring up theology and a practice of prayer. So theology you want a good theology. What it? What is prayer in in Scripture? How? What are different types of prayers? There's prophetic prayer. There's work for prayer, there's contemplative prayer, there's centering prayer. There's, you know.
Roger Helland, EFC: intercessory prayer. There's different types of per that we really need to bring to the table. Not just shopping list per. That usually is the main method or contemplative per right. Prophetic prayer. There's revival per. There's different. II would
Roger Helland, EFC: kinda overview of different types of prayer and help. People learn the life of prayer and how it's connected to God Himself, and that a theology of our dependency upon God, and communion and communication with Him, and the nature of what prayer really is, and why it's life giving, and then practical ways of how do we pray, and how do we lead prayer? How do we experience
Roger Helland, EFC: hearing God's voice and tracking? You know the the move, the spirit through the context of a life of prayer practicing his presence. Those are the kind of ingredients that I think really be vital
Roger Helland, EFC: to theological students.
Andy Miller III: No, that's good. III appreciate that encourage man. I'm gonna pull this video back out when the time comes for me to come before the faculty assembly to talk about a curriculum update. So we're talking to different theological schools here in Canada because we're we're on a campaign. Oh, Billy Graham, national Ossipr Evan Zucker, of Canada, the piece of reconciliation network and a whole bunch of different denominations and ministry organizations. Right now, we're developing what's called the 787
Roger Helland, EFC: collect it where we want to help a thousand churches across this country develop cultures of prayer in the local church
Roger Helland, EFC: help do we can to shift the culture, away from just sermons and singing to a prayerful place where the presence of God is so strong and compelling that.
Roger Helland, EFC: apart from a life of prayer, we? We can't get it done. We can't get it done. We gotta be devote to Per. So that's one of the tracks we're running right now here in Canada.
Andy Miller III: I love it. You know somebody else from Canada. I appreciated from the Wesleyan Church who I had on the podcast several years ago. Now, actually, my Podcast was called Captain's Corner.
Andy Miller III: 3 or 4 years Steve Elliot, and his, his, his Canadian President of Western Church. Right?
Andy Miller III: I don't. I'm sorry I haven't followed it up lately. Yeah, that would make it. And and and I did incorporate some of the things that he was doing with presence based pieces. Wh. When I was serving as a passenger. The this idea of seeking the miraculous supernatural, asking, God, you know, yeah. Having healing services. And I found that the work? Yeah. Exactly like to to make sure that we're incorporating more than just covering a list.
Andy Miller III: Like like you said like a shopping list instead, like making that a part of the church community, the worshipping community that was a key move for me, and and and even just allowing for space.
Andy Miller III: not trying to. You know you you maybe you had this, too, in seminary or other experiences like no dead air, you know. No no spate like. Well, let's let's just see. And and that was a corrective for me.
Roger Helland, EFC: Absolutely. We gotta wait on God. Yeah, II just came out of a 3 day. evangelists. Some called Advance evangel Evangelists summit here in Calgary, you know. Rebecca Pipper came up from the Us. Came up here, and we had a variety of different leaders from across Canada and Brazil. Different countries. I was invited to be the pro ambassador to help, you know, cultivate prayer. During the conference also
Roger Helland, EFC: was asked to speak, and so they asked me to speak on, what does the connection be? Prayer and evangelism? And so what I offered was about 10
Roger Helland, EFC: key passages that directly relate prayer and evangelism. For example, when Jesus says, Pray to the Lord of the harvest to send forth workers into his harvest field because the harvest holds are ripe. That's one
Roger Helland, EFC: key ticks that we can actually pray on a regular basis in our churches, you know. Cautions for 2 is which I refer to already, you know, devote yourself to prayer, being watchful and thankful, pray that the Lord would open doors of opportunity, that I would proclaim the gospel clearly as I shouldn't be wise. How we
Roger Helland, EFC: we're, you know, act towards outsiders and conversation we season with salt. Those are the kinds of passages that we can actually pray specifically in our churches and see evangelistic impact come out of that.
Roger Helland, EFC: And but it's gotta be. It's presence, base cause, when we take the word of the Lord, and pray it by faith, and by one accord I mentioned in the Book of Acts chapter one when Jesus ascended into heaven, what did He leave behind?
Roger Helland, EFC: You have to permeate?
Roger Helland, EFC: Interesting. In the upper room he didn't leave a preaching team angelistic team. He left a per meeting behind. So they waited on him.
Roger Helland, EFC: Promise Scripture fed spirit led, you know the spear will come and pour out. you know, greater than John the Baptist be be port out and you know, baptism of spirit and fire.
Roger Helland, EFC: And so they prayed for 10 days. There's about 20. I kinda added it up, and there's a couple of insights in into Acts 1, 14. They they just. They devoted themselves to prayer, and they prayed of one accord. So they're they're unified. They were faith filled, and there was men and women there. So, and Jesus, Mother Mary was in that prayer. That's the last place she's mentioned in Scripture, by the way.
Roger Helland, EFC: at a prayer meeting, praying for the
Roger Helland, EFC: what would become the outpouring of the Spirit acts. Chapter 2. And then his brothers were there, and the apostles about 20. It grew to about 120, but it was a prayer gathering. It was all presence based. So the output of spirit came in chapter 2 and chapter 3, bam. The church is hauled on to mission, and the first thing that happens is, you know, healing at the temple, and then prayer gathering after that, and acts chapter 4, and the house shook. You know where they were at, and they were courageous and bold. It's all about presence.
Roger Helland, EFC: but it was cultivated in the context of prayer, prayer, evangelism was a direct connection.
Andy Miller III: One of the things, Roger, that I really appreciate at your book is the 2 of the chapters toward the end one is on the God's presence in the home and others on God's presence at the in the workplace. And II might not be able to get to both those here. But on page 1, 76, you have this interesting section where you talk about what we do with our children. And there's a list of 7 points of what we can do as we put ourselves in a place of
Andy Miller III: And I think this actually comes from somebody else. But I found it really helpful. I'll just read them here real quick, and maybe give you opportunity to comment on it. But the first one is to assume your child already hears God, and I'll say, like my family. We have a evening prayer time we have.
Andy Miller III: we pray for missionaries. On Tuesday we pray for the persecuted church. On Thursday we pray for our most wanted list of Christians on Wednesday, but like we do things. But nevertheless, I'm still convicted reading this chapter like, we have this, we have this time. And like, I'm okay with the fact that things can come routine, or maybe even boring. But just to make it happen. But I was. I was challenged by this list I just wanted to know, like, and
Andy Miller III: I appreciate it. So much of me, am I? And I? Sometimes I think I'm not. I was. I was in reading this book. Like man am I? Am I just am I checking a box? Even what I just said to you so. But the first one is, assume your child already hears God. Second, invite your child to find Jesus in a meeting place. 3.
Andy Miller III: Convert bedtime prayers into listening prayers. 4. Invite Jesus into nightmares and night terrors beautiful! 5. Take conflicts at school and home to Jesus. 6. Help your child interpret their dreams. 7. Incorporate listening prayer even into Sunday school. Talk to me about this like
Andy Miller III: presence focused life in our in our parenting and in our homes.
Roger Helland, EFC: I think a lot of our parenting has to do with setting rules and boundaries and regulations that tend not to work. Very well. I mean, we're all parents, didn't. We? Didn't get a manual on how to be a good parent. I mean, we had different models. Some of our models were better than others. My model was not good. Mom was divorced.
I come out of a doors background and adopted my. My actual last name used to be.
Roger Helland, EFC: but it got changed to Helen. I got adopted, so I came out of a really bad family background, didn't have a really good model, but I think Scripture gives us
Roger Helland, EFC: a pattern that incorporates children and parents who fear God, and who seek His presence and bring His presence into the context of how they, parent, how they.
Roger Helland, EFC: our mom and dad and family and and bringing, you know, in a in a natural organic way. I mean, how how's those are busy for those of you that have, you know, small kids, and they're going to school, and they've got sleep overs. And there's sports and music and swimming. I mean, I get it. I mean, it's how how do you do it, my wife? And we look back. How do we do it? We were younger
Roger Helland, EFC: man, but if we would have a framework in our mind that parenting
Roger Helland, EFC: is more effective when we are surrendered
Roger Helland, EFC: to the Lord in His Word, and put that in, as our philosophy of parenting presence centred, that when we experience the presence of God in the context of our families that activates a whole lot of stuff that nothing else could happen, we would pray the Aaronic blessing, Lord bless you, and keep you, and May's face shine upon you, and be gracious to you and the Lord. Let this count upon and give you peace. Every single night we would take a half an hour with
Roger Helland, EFC: our 3 kids. We lay our hands on them, and they'd be laying there, and we pronounce our little
Roger Helland, EFC: Aaronic blessing over them. And we would they actually literally feel the peace in the presence of God, to send in those rooms, those children, they'd fall asleep. It doesn't always work that way. I get it. There's always different nuances that. But the overall texture. I think the atmosphere is what we wanna cultivate is a place of peace, a place of holiness, a place of presence, so that these children experience God, and we teach them how to hear from him, and
Roger Helland, EFC: how to pay attention to him and go to him and their duress, and being bullied at school, or they're being picked on, or they feel lonely, or they don't belong, or they have nightmares, or whatever it is, bring prayer, bring presence, bring that whole framework around Jesus into their life.
Roger Helland, EFC: they will respond to it.
Roger Helland, EFC: They will. I mean, the kingdom of heaven is like children, right? They're they're they're imaginative, they're they like to explore. They like to take risk and experiment. And it it's fun.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Oh, I love I it's it's a beautiful idea just to think of it, of reminding us for the opportunity, even just to that little word you had about having people move from just nighttime prayers to nighttime listening. Yeah, what's God saying to you like. What's God saying?
Roger Helland, EFC: You know. Figure from God I mean Samuel. He's little boy. Years from God. Such bring the killing kids to me. Lay hands on the kids. Bless them! I talk about blessing, and you know how imparting blessing and empowering them. And and you know it's a it's a spiritual practice. And I mean, there's lots of tools out there, and but for me it it comes down to
Roger Helland, EFC: present-centered homes.
Andy Miller III: Yes, Amen.
Roger Helland, EFC: and and give me a give me a brief little word about the present centred work places as well.
Roger Helland, EFC: Yeah. So a lot of times we leave church on Sunday. We go to work on Monday.
Roger Helland, EFC: Sacred, secular shift. Right now we're in the world. Real world. God is out there, too. Look at all the different people in Scripture and the type of locations they had.
Roger Helland, EFC: God's in to work. He's in the workplace, he's in the marketplace. And so how do we shift from sort of a sacred secular paradigm of God only does stuff in church or in Bible studies or in worship events. No. A lot of the times that Jesus encounter people was in the marketplace was in the work of day world right? Tax collectors, and
Roger Helland, EFC: you know.
Roger Helland, EFC: people who were out and about in their day, and a woman at the well. She's coming up drawer, and Jesus out there encountering her. I mean, he's in the real live world out there, and so
Roger Helland, EFC: his presence
Roger Helland, EFC: prevails. So how do we shift from a secular to a spiritual
Roger Helland, EFC: framework? I think it's present center that even on our way to work I talk about. You know the liturgy of commute as we're driving or riding our bike, or walking around or on a train, or however, we get to work. Maybe just go down to your home office, but en route we can align our hearts to say, Okay, Lord, take charge of my day.
Roger Helland, EFC: Help me be open to how you are at work. Help me work through the frustrations and the challenges and the things that are before me in my work. Environment. Help me be a witness and a light to those that are around me, and sort of settle and and quiet our hearts contemplatively, so that we walk into places
Roger Helland, EFC: sort of ready for in presence. I talk about Aura at labor. So the whole Benedictine structure of prayer and work, this
Roger Helland, EFC: rhythm of prayer and work.
Roger Helland, EFC: Pray into those meetings before you walk into a meeting, you know, with your boss, or your employees, or your staff, or other fellow workers whatever, pray into a zoom or a call you're gonna have. Or if you're a driver, you're on a technology, you know. Platform.
pray into those environments ahead of time and take space and take time to really recalibrate our heart and monitor what's going on in our work environment and ask the Spirit of the Lord to prevail in those environments. Those are some of the Co. You know. Read Scripture, maybe during your break, or you know, different vocations lend themselves a little bit more to be able to do some of these things, but it's more of a it's a posture.
Roger Helland, EFC: yes, yes, of a presence centered.
Roger Helland, EFC: Philosophy that I that got is that work in our workplace, and I talk about Guinness, and how Guinness, you know, shifted in his culture towards how he developed beer and and became a platform for really benevolent charity and stuff that ensued environment, and how God is use businesspeople at different ones, of
Andy Miller III: a faith in the workplace to advance the kingdom. Yeah, well, you know, I had a Oz guinness actually on my, podcast a couple of times now and in my own research on the Salvation Army in England. Going to archives, I found that
Andy Miller III: you know whatever generation it is. The senior Gene Guinness, the one who you're talking about was one of the financial supporters of the army in the early days
Andy Miller III: was was a key part of that movement. This is so inch so helpful again. I just wanna encourage people. I'm holding the book up here pursuing God's presence is published by Chosen, which is a division of Baker publishing group. Roger thanks so much for this book is a real challenge, and like the the spiritual weight that comes with it as I open it up. I just man, I said, II am in something intense here in intensely challenging Amen's and ouches
Andy Miller III: all throughout it. So, and even on this call
Andy Miller III: but II do wanna finish. I always ask my, A podcast. Guest. My more to the story of question. My podcast is called more this story, because I think there's more than just the typical version of what Christianity is getting your sins forgiven instead, there's also the opportunity we have to seek God's presence and sanctifying grace but I also like to say, is there more to the story of Roger? I have a feeling I know what you're gonna say. Having read your book and seeing if certain sports team come up
Andy Miller III: regularly in your ministry. But maybe maybe there's something else. What's what's more, the story of Roger.
I'm a Los Angeles dodgers. Fan, I'm a California boy.
Roger Helland, EFC: So last September I hadn't been to California about 12 years since my mother passed away. She lived out in San Diego, so that was just north of
Roger Helland, EFC: of Anaheim by about a half an hour and such, and I used to surf down at Newport, Huntington, Laguna, and all that, and I actually went down to the baptism site where the Jesus Revolution baptism heard in Pirates Cove in Corona del Mar. We walked down to my wife, and we took picture. We said, this is history in the making. And Greg Laurie, he's still pastoring out in in Riverside for 50 years. He's still pastoring.
Roger Helland, EFC: We went to a church service there, and we went down to Pirates Covent last July. He had a 50 year anniversary Jesus revolution. Baptist. We had 3,500 people that are baptized. You can watch
Roger Helland, EFC: so I mean California
Roger Helland, EFC: lot of turmoil in the States right now. I mean the elections coming out. I mean, there's just a lot of things that we could say about that. But I would say, Pray for your nation. Pay, pray for it, righteousness to prevail in the halls of Congress. But you got a divided house. It's just over the top. It's just hard to apprehend the the amount of tension and duress. But California, boy, for those of you that live in the West and California, bless you.
Roger Helland, EFC: bless you and be a witness. Be a pursuer of God, and be on mission for the United States of America. We love the States, and
Roger Helland, EFC: well back to the doctors here for a second. Okay.
Roger Helland, EFC: very unspiritual. But you're in a good place, the dodgers you're spending all this money, all the the biggest players in the world. Now, who is your great? Are us Abax person. Is that your all? I saw co-fax pitch? He was an amazing picture. So Curtis, I mean Clinton Kershaw, I think, has exceeded some of the records that but I think Kershaw pitched a bit more
Roger Helland, EFC: more years longer. But yeah, I mean, co-fax was amazing.
Andy Miller III: A picture back then. But even somebody like through the year, Steve Garvey, who's now a Congressman.
Roger Helland, EFC: though those are yeah, Maury wills, or these are some of the really great dodger, you know.
Roger Helland, EFC: players over the years that really made a mark. That was one of one of the first Japanese players to make their way in. Yeah, amazing. So now they're paying a lot of money for these top Japanese players, but you know it still comes down. You gotta win ball games. And sometimes these players injured and or they're they're just not in their game, and things happen. You know, they traded Corey seeker, which
Roger Helland, EFC: I mean, he got a lot of money through Texas, but Texas didn't didn't win the world series. So I mean, or did they know they did? And, Cory, maybe you've heard this Freddie Freeman grew up in attending a Salvation Army
Andy Miller III: wow! That is, a grandfather is a band master of A
Andy Miller III: at Sally Sharmi core in the Los Angeles area. So
Andy Miller III: great hitter really reliable. Oh, yeah, you've got the team. You've got the team. Well, I'm I'm appreciative of what you're gonna hopefully do through this book and through your ministry, Roger. I know I kind of like spent all time on sports there. But I'm so thankful for this this emphasis that you had. It's it's made an impact on me. And I and I appreciate your willingness to take time to write it down and help it. Get to the church.
Roger Helland, EFC: My pleasure.
Andy Miller III: Thanks for taking time with me today.
Roger Helland, EFC: Okay, God bless. we'll see you again.