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Conversations about deep end meditation, skills for emotional fluidity, and living a life with more authenticity. All grounded in our work and relationships.
Pranab: hey, I'm with Anne Laure , author
of Ness Labs, and we're here to talk
about our upcoming book and just hang out.
Um, Hey Anne.
Laure, welcome.
Thank you so much for having me.
This is very cozy.
Yeah, it was very cozy.
. Um, so right before we were
starting, we were talking about
our definitions of success.
Curious if you just want to continue
that conversation, um, and wondering
what does, you know, success mean to you?
Yeah.
The, what we were talking about,
it was the different metrics
of success that people have.
And I know quite a few people around me
who think that having a lot of employees,
for example, is a marker of success.
, I've realized I. Thinking about it and
actually asking myself what it is I want.
What kind of life do I wanna live, how,
what do I want my days to look like
that I want to keep my team very small.
I like the idea of having a very
small team and we're very close and
we all know what's happening and
we can make decisions very quickly.
And I often think about James
Clear because I discovered
that he only has one employee.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, her name's Lindsay and uh, when
I hired my team, I was thinking
about how can I find my Lindsay,
I want my Lindsay, and that's it.
Not a big team.
So that's just one example.
But I think a lot of us could really
benefit from being a little bit more
intentional in terms of figuring out
what does success look like to me
and how can I make sure I'm not copy
pasting what success means for others.
Makes sense.
How has that changed
for you over the years?
Like, do you think three
years ago you would've said
the same thing about success?
Yeah, probably not because I started
my career in tech and Silicon
Valley at Google, and, uh, there
was a very specific script in
terms of what success looked like.
You would start your job in a big
tech company, save enough money,
build a network, raise money, start
a startup, and, uh, change the world.
Anything less than that was
not considered successful.
And so if you told me that there was a
definition of success, that was keeping
your team very small, having a lot
of freedom over how you organize your
days, being able to just take days off
whenever you want to, being able to
change direction in the business and
say, actually, let's stop working on that
thing that we don't wanna work on anymore.
Let's work on on that other thing.
Instead, I would've said, oh,
cool, but that, that doesn't
really sound like success to me.
Right?
And so it.
Took me a few years and a few failures
and a few detours to figure out
for myself that no, actually there
are as many different definitions
of success as there are people.
Yeah.
Uh, one thing that brings to mind,
um, in your book, you mentioned
a few different default scripts.
I remember one, I doing things
for what other people think.
Uh, and, uh, I, there's a lot
of other default scripts, right?
Like, raise a, raise
money for a big company.
There's, I mean, entrepreneurship
itself can be a script like, you
know, consulting or things like that.
Um, if you were to look like five years
from now and, uh, look back, given I think
the rise of the creator economy and, um,
with all the transition from Covid and
everything, in my mind, I imagine there's
like more as, as many, as much as people
are kind of creating their own scripts,
I imagine there's like a new level of
default script kind of coming up like
with Gen Z people or things like that.
Curious like, since you're
so deep in this world.
Do you see any new scripts coming
online that like maybe five years from
now people are gonna think about and
have to work through or something?
Yeah, the one I think is the most
insidious and a lot of people are
following right now is the, uh, follow
your passion script, which is glorified
by our society, and which makes a
lot of people feel miserable because
they haven't found their passion yet.
And so they feel like something's wrong.
And uh, I think.
There are lots of factors
that come into play.
One of them is obviously social media.
So we have access to this giant
leaderboard where we can compare ourselves
to each other and where a lot of people
are projecting and sharing those passion
led lives where they say, I wake up in
the morning and this is what working on.
This is my mission.
And we feel like that's what
we need in order to be happy.
Um, and then another one is
probably also the, the rise of just
spirituality in general, which I
do think is a really good thing.
But sometimes we can be misled to think
that we need to figure out, we need our
lives to be meaningful, and were unable
to let go of finding that meaning.
Anne-Laure: Yeah.
Pranab: And so yeah, that's, that's
one of the scripts where I think
a lot of people will realize in a
few years that it is not necessary.
It's not necessary.
And in fact, when.
You ask people who have found their
passion, how they found it, if they're
being honest, A lot will tell you.
I stumbled upon it.
I was doing this thing, and then I found
this thing and I followed this path
and I had no idea where I was going.
And then I woke up one morning and I
realized that I was super excited to
wake up and to work on that thing.
And I'm now very passionate about this.
And the second thing is that most people
who are quite content and who feel
connected to their passion, they also
accept the fact that it might, it doesn't
have to be for the rest of their lives.
Maybe one day they'll wake up
and that's not really the thing
they wanna work on anymore.
And that's okay.
They can trust that something
else will emerge at some point.
Yeah, a lot of that
resonates, uh, quite deeply.
As I mentioned to you, this past
year has been an experiment for
me in doing more meaningful work.
Um, I went part-time with my
kind of tech job and ended up
working at a meditation startup.
And a legal psychedelic startup, uh,
is the first hire for both, which
is super fun and super awesome.
And I think I, my hypothesis in the, the
tiny experiment I ran going into that
was, can I, um, live a work life that I'm
gonna care about in 10 years working with
people that I care about in 10 years?
So, uh, and then, you know, and ideally
be energized by that day to day.
By all accounts, I was successful.
And I, uh, just a few weeks ago, uh,
announced leaving the job and I'm
starting a new one in a few weeks.
Um, almost going back into tech, uh, as
a way to, uh, because I kind of realized
some of the things, you know, you can
do meaningful, purposeful work, but for
me at least, it's like, that's great,
but it also has to fit in with like, the
context of your life and just you have
to see the reality of it and everything.
Um, so I now I'm learning
another experiment to see what
that's like going forward.
But, uh, yeah.
Yeah, I think, I think that's a thing
that I see a lot of people chasing.
They're like, if only I just
had a job that was at the.
Cornerstone of every single interest
I have, then it's gonna be perfect
and I'll never have any problems.
Uh, and I find that, yeah, I agree.
It's like, I think that's actually a
really worthwhile experiment to run,
but it also has to kind of fit into the
context of life and, and see what emerges.
Yeah.
I I think what's really interesting
in your approach is that to me, the
main problem with trying to find your
passion is that you're already focused
on this outcome and you attach a
lot of other things to this outcome.
So you feel like, once I find this
passion, I'll be happy, I'll be whole,
I'll have everything figured out.
Right?
Whereas if you did the way you just
described where you said, well, as
long as I meet interesting people
that I might want to stay in touch
with for the rest of my life, as
long as I learn something, right?
You're focused on the journey and.
Whatever happens, even if you end up
wanting to leave that job after a while,
even if the product you work on doesn't
end up launching, even if actually this
is really not the industry you wanna work
in, you wanna do something else, right?
You will have learned something new
about yourself, about the world, about
the kind of work that you want do.
And so that's success.
That's success.
Not getting to a specific
destination, but having had the
space to explore a hypothesis, a
research question, and having learned
something new that is success.
Yeah, I totally agree.
It's interesting 'cause it's in, in,
I think me in high school or something
would've looked at it and been like,
oh, that's so obvious everyone.
It's about the journey,
not the destination.
It's like, it's a thing that you're
kind of, once you start reading
self-help, you're inundated with
that, but it really is just true.
Yeah.
And I think it's a thing where, uh, every
generation and every person has to kind
of discover it for themselves in a way,
um, from different angles, from different
approaches at like more subtle levels.
Um, something that someone told me, uh,
that I think really hits and kind of
reminds me of this, whenever I, whenever
you, whenever someone starts thinking, oh,
once I get this, then I will win forever.
Like, sometimes there's a subtle, like,
I will win forever if I get this job, or
I will win forever if, if that, and it's
just that, that's like a very, uh, it's a
good if I, if I sense that that motivation
in me, I'm like, oh, there's something
that's probably not helpful here.
Um, and the opposite of
that is, is the process.
You know, it's like, you know, the
forever, the permanence, it's just like,
oh, the process of going through it.
The process of going, um, of
just living it is, is, is more
important and more interesting.
Yeah, there's, um, I think there's a
sense of, of lack that this comes from
when we, when we feel like we'll only be
happy once we get to a specific place.
And that specific place is not now.
Anne-Laure: Hmm.
Yeah.
Pranab: It usually means
that something's missing.
But that we feel a little bit stuck and
we don't really know how to address it.
We don't really know how to accept it.
And so we just figured that if we create
this intricate plan or if we have this
vision for the future, it might not
solve for the way we feel right now.
Mm-hmm.
But at least it gives us the
comforting feeling that it
will be better in the future.
Anne-Laure: Yeah.
Pranab: And so to me, not letting
go of that idea of that this arrival
fall, that once you get there,
everything will be all right.
Is also a, a way to embrace the
uncertainty of the present moment,
except the fact that you actually
have no idea where you're going,
except the fact that change and
growth can be very uncomfortable.
And that's okay.
That's actually part of it.
That's part of, of what being alive is.
And, and that's fine.
Right.
Yeah.
But obviously that's, um,
more easily said than done.
For sure.
For sure.
It's like, it's like someone, you know.
Going to the gym and doing all this stuff,
and then really then seeing the outcome
of like, oh, I can run this fast or lift
this much weight when it's like can't.
It's just part of the pro, it's
part of the process in some ways.
Um, part of that I'm curious, so you've,
you've often talked about how uh, if you
look at yourself 20 years ago or 15 years
ago, like you and your teenage years
was going through, we're going through a
lot of hardship and a lot of difficulty.
How do you think that younger version
of you would, um, maybe respond to
that kind of insight you have now?
She would probably be very cynical
about it, and that's the thing,
and that's also why I have a lot of
empathy for people who are stuck and
a place that feels like it's dark.
It doesn't have a lot of hope, because
it's very difficult when you're in that
place to be able to just imagine what.
Another reality might look like
and the response that we might have
to that is very often cynicism.
Anne-Laure: Mm.
Pranab: Making fun of people who are
earnest, who are genuinely trying
to explore and to learn and to grow.
And, uh, treating that notion of
wanting to be alive and wanting
to explore as almost ridiculous.
I think that's the reaction that 13 or
14 years old me would've had at the time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I can relate to that.
I can relate to that.
And I think through the process
of writing in public and, and
like learning in public, you
almost have to shed that cynicism.
I don't think I know anyone who's, who
can stay cynical while, like, expressing
themselves in writing and sharing because,
uh, yeah, A lot of times the cynicism
I, I find of them myself is a protection
against like, feeling judgment or like,
I, I would rather, I'd rather criticize
myself unless someone else criticize me.
Um, and yeah, it's a way to be to,
to kind of play small and just not.
Be out in the world, um, in a way.
So, oh yeah.
That's such a, yeah, that's
a great insight actually.
You're, you're basically
saying, okay, it's fine.
Like, I'm not going to
take myself seriously.
Yeah.
I'm not going to take my work seriously.
Uh, and so it's okay if other people
don't take it seriously either.
Whereas when you stop being cynical,
just read this sense of, of hope,
uh, and trust in other people that
they will actually earnestly engage
with your work and your ideas.
And that doesn't mean they'll be, they'll
actually agree with you, but there will
be this honest sense of discussion and
connection and really trying to understand
what you're trying to express here.
Yeah.
Uh, I'm curious, how have you, uh,
dealt with the haters over the years?
If there, if there have been.
I actually haven't really
had many, to be honest.
Nice.
I've been very, very lucky.
Um, I think I can think of two.
I. Um, emails I got that were a bit
hurtful, but I've been writing online for
so long that, uh, this is really little.
I've been very, very fortunate.
Um, I think maybe this is because of
the kind of things that I write about.
It tends to attract the kind of
people who would not necessarily
have this kind of behavior.
Um, also because a lot of the people
who engage with my work have grown
up on the internet like I did.
And I think we have this deep
understanding that behind the
screen there is a human being and
we try to be cognizant of that.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, and even the couple of
times where people have been a little
bit hurtful, I generally think that they
were probably struggling themselves.
Um, and so they were maybe
projecting things, uh, on me.
So, um, yeah, so I haven't really had
to deal with it, which is very lucky.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
What about you, by the way?
Is it something that
you've had to experience?
No, never.
Yeah, just curious.
I feel like it's a thing that I hear
about, uh, and occasionally there'll be
some kind of, maybe like a rude comment
or someone doesn't seem understanding, but
I find that, um, you know, so, so we kind
of got acquainted through Twitter, and I
feel like our little corner of Twitter,
uh, x is very friendly in earnest, and I
find that that culture tends to just lead
to more friendly, earnest conversation.
That's pretty, um, insular is not the
right word, but just I guess protective.
Mm-hmm.
Or it just doesn't really
lead to like problems that you
see, I guess, uh, typically.
So yeah, I, thankfully I've also been
pretty good, but I, I tend to find
that I have a lot of, um, uh, in my own
publishing work, there's kind of this,
it's not even, uh, in my mind there's
a few tier of like potential criticism.
There's like family, there's close
friends, and then like acquaintances.
Like what will, like what, what will
my 10-year-old, the piano teacher I
had when I was 10, what was his dad?
Ooh, I'm friends with on Facebook,
think of me if I write this thing.
It's like a random,
some random thing there.
Uh, and uh, yeah, that's, that's and it,
but it's, it is really just a projection.
It's really just this
like fear of something.
Uh, yeah.
It's that little voice in your head.
Yeah.
And uh, we actually talked about that.
Well, we were grabbing coffee before.
Yeah.
We started recording.
And how that's also a realization that
you, you have, when you start kind of like
growing up and being more in the world is
that nobody cares, nobody's watching you.
Everybody is so focused on their
own journey, whatever they're going
through that the, they don't care.
And also I realized almost
nobody's going to read your
work as closely as you, you do.
So even if there's a paragraph
where you go into something that
might not be exactly what you want
to express or where someone might
think, um, that it's a bit weird.
A lot of people are actually going
to skim it and, uh, not even.
See that part?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and what I do have out,
it's like anyone who's really engaged
with it at any level, no matter
what they think, that's such a gift.
You know?
Like they've actually kind of
go in, went in, and, um, yeah.
How's that?
How's that been for you, kind of, um, as
you've grown Ness Labs and as you've grown
the newsletter, uh, subscriber base and
YouTube and the book, um, how have you,
how, how has, how has your life changed
by having like an audience or by having
people that, like what's on your mind?
Yeah.
My, I think my biggest realization
over the, the years has been that
I, I'm terrible at predicting
what people will find interesting.
Mm-hmm.
So I will sometimes spend hours and
hours researching a topic, reading all
of the research papers and trying to
write the definitive article about this.
And it's crickets.
Nobody replaces to newsletter.
Nobody seems to care.
And sometimes I'm in a rush.
I'm literally waiting in front of the
gate about to take a plane somewhere
and it was that kind of week.
And I just sit down and in 20 minutes
I just write a very short newsletter.
Few bullet points.
Here are some interesting questions
that I thought about this week,
about this topic, and I get so many
replies, people who say, that's me.
That's, you know, I really resonate.
I really can.
I connect with what you said
and thank you for sharing this.
So, to answer your question about
how having an audience has changed
things, actually it's become, it's
made me more comfortable just saying,
okay, I'm just going to show up.
The kind of only pact that I I have
made with myself and my audience is that
every week I will send a newsletter and
sometimes it will be very well researched,
sometimes it will be quite short, but it
will be something that I find interesting.
That's it.
And then maybe you'll find it
interesting, maybe not, but clearly
after, I think I sent more than 215
newsletters, at this point, I am the
worst judge possible in terms of whether
you're going to like this or not.
So I'm just going to write
it and I'm going to send it.
That's awesome.
I find that, uh, even with
tweets, it's a similar thing.
Like, who knows Right?
But like any kind of content or any
kind of thing that's put out there.
Yeah.
Anne-Laure: Yeah.
Pranab: What's the, uh, when you use
the word pact, is that the same type
of pact that you have in your book?
Yes.
Uh, I, so what I describe as a
pact is a commitment to curiosity.
And it's saying, I will perform
this action for this duration.
And you remove any other factor.
You don't have to think
about anything else.
You just need to show up and do it.
And that's a way of collecting data.
About, again, about yourself,
about the world, about the work,
and, uh, you can then revise your
pact later on if you want to.
You can decide to keep going.
You can decide to tweak it,
you can decide to abandon it.
And so, yeah, my longest pact, which has
taken it, has had several iterations,
but my very first pact was I will write
100 articles in a hundred weekdays.
And that was the beginning of Ness Labs.
That's how I started Ness Labs.
And, uh, I've iterated on this, and
now I, I still have one, um, where it's
every week until the end of the year.
And at the end of each year, I revisit it
and I see if I wanna keep going or not.
I've done different pacts with
YouTube where I said I'm going
to do one weekly YouTube video
also until the end of the year.
I stopped that.
Didn't like it.
I did a pact with meditation.
My current pact is to walk for 20 minutes
for every day for the next 20 days.
I'm on day three.
It was very cold today.
Didn't like that.
But yeahm glad I made the pact
because I wouldn't have done it.
And so, so that's a pact.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
I, I, I like that a lot because it solves,
uh, a lot of things in my mind where when
building new habits, sometimes like a
thing that'll stop me from even starting
the habit is always gonna be forever.
Um, or I go the other way where it's like,
oh, I just have to start a little bit.
And then even that, it's a little bit,
but never goes more than a little bit.
So it's like a, you, you know, thinking
about the right size chunk of an
experiment and you commit to that and
just what can you kind of, it's almost
a balance of coercion and non coercion.
It's like, for this time period, I
actually can choose to do this much
and I will get myself to do it.
And at the end think about it, reevaluate.
See, is this something I wanna
continue or how do I wanna change it?
Yeah.
It's uh, it's exactly like it was
inspired by the scientific method and
it's really this idea that you decide in
advance the num on the number of trials.
You collect that data,
you withhold judgment.
Until you're done collecting
the data, but obviously you need
to finish collecting the data.
Anne-Laure: Yeah.
Pranab: And yeah, and at the end you
analyze the data and you decide what
you want to do, you make decisions based
on all of that data that you collected.
And so as you said, it's uh, there
is a form of, of, um, of structure
of a little bit of self coercion
of saying that's what I want to do.
But you decide what experiment you wanna
run, but then you're not committing to
it for the rest of your life either.
Right.
Yeah.
And it's interesting 'cause I think like
self coercion can seem bad, but I almost
think of it as self coercion structure.
It's the same thing, just depending on
kind of maybe the attitude it's coming
from, uh, or the amount of, um, consent
or agreement that there is with it is
similar with non coercion and like chaos.
Like you can be totally non-coercive
or fluid or, but that's like, that
also can just mean you don't do any,
you don't do things in a way that you
build long-term trust with yourself on.
Um, and I think I've been really
into myself has just been.
Just having everything be an
act towards building self-trust.
And I feel like the pact method
is a way to do that in a very
strategic, structured way.
Yeah.
It's uh, with what I like too is
that you're, it it prevents you from
having any assumptions about any kind
of things you could try in your life.
There are lots of things we don't start
because we feel like it's not for me and
lots of habits we don't explore because
we feel like, ah, I don't, I don't
think that's something I would like.
Um, and equally there are things
we just think that we enjoy,
but we don't do because we don't
really have the time right now.
Yeah.
Right.
And we just feel like, oh yeah, I'm
sure I, I'll pick it up one day.
I'll start this thing one day.
I'm sure I'll love it.
And we just assume the reason
why we're not doing it is
because we don't have time.
Once you replace those big, vague
commitments with something that
is self-contained like this.
There's first, no excuse not to
get started because you say, I'm
just going to do this for the next
two weeks or for the next month.
Um, and second, you can
actually test your assumptions.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like a lot of what
makes this different than like
10, 20 years ago, like a similar
version of this 10, 20 years ago.
I think how things are different
now is that I we're just in an, I
think maybe before it was an age
of, like, it's hard to know what the
right thing to do is, and you have to
put yourself to do the right thing.
Now it's almost just like, um, we
have a problem of overabundance.
There's just so many things,
so many possibilities and
so many things we could do.
So it's just like an overload of like,
oh, should I learn this language or
this language or this code thing, or
write a thing or do, and you know,
and you kind of do everything at once.
You're just not doing anything at all.
So it just, it, it's giving you the
structure to at least like carve
out, alright, cool, let me just
do this minimum, um, uh, minimum,
but enough amount of things.
So then afterwards I can assess.
Um, 'cause I, I find myself in a
thing where I, I sometimes do 15
things at once and it's just like
none of them are actually structured
out enough in a way that I can
actually evaluate and decide on.
Yeah.
That's, uh, why I always say that I
wrote this book for people who are both
highly curious and highly ambitious.
Anne-Laure: Yeah.
Pranab: Which comes with a lot
of benefits in today's world, but
which also can create analysis.
Parais, there's other choice, as you
said, you're curious about everything
and you want to do all of these
things, uh, in the best way possible,
and you end up doing none of them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel like, uh, I'm forgetting the act
a little bit, but you have, um, these
two by two of like, uh, high agency, low
agency, and high curiosity, low curiosity.
Do you remember what the, it was
like high curiosity, low agency.
It's ambition.
And so yeah, it's a two by two.
Yes.
With, uh, high curiosity.
It is basically based on
curiosity and ambition.
And so I explained that if you have
low curiosity and low ambition,
that's cynicism, which we talked
about already a little bit.
If you have high curiosity, you
want to explore, you want to learn,
but low ambition, that's escapism.
Mm. Uh, and so that means that you
might want to just read a lot of
novels and travel a lot, uh, maybe,
um, you know, shopping a lot, buying
a lot of different things and trying
new things, restaurants, et cetera.
Uh, which is nice, right?
But if there's no ambition to go with
it, you might not want to push yourself
to work hard towards something that
matters to you and challenges you.
If you have high ambition, uh.
Low accuracy, that's perfectionism.
So you are going to push yourself
to work really hard, to really,
you know, eyes on the prize.
You, you want to really succeed, but
because of that, you feel like curiosity
might be a waste of time and energy.
It's a distraction.
And so everything you read, everything
you watch, all of the information
you consume is stuff that you feel
like is productive and useful and
contributing to your ambitions.
And then the last one is the one that I
encourage people to explore in the book.
And it's the experimentalist mindset
and it's high curiosity, high ambition.
You actually want to explore big things.
You want to challenge yourself,
but also you wanna have this space
for exploration and curiosity.
And you're completely okay
with the fact that you might
not know where you're going.
And you trust that by keeping on iterating
and experimenting, you will get to
a place where you work on something
that is really exciting, even if you
don't know what it looks like yet.
Yeah.
I resonate so hard with that.
I think, um, I, I was, maybe,
I've always been high curiosity.
I think before I was maybe lower ambition,
maybe there's even a third access of
lower agency of like high, high curiosity,
high ambition, but just not really
able to get the things I want done.
Mm-hmm.
Um, figuring out how, and as
I've worked through a lot of
emotional stuckness, it's like.
I've kind of naturally gotten a bit
more into this experimental mindset.
Um, but it's interesting because I
think the high, the high ambition,
low curiosity, that's almost like a
recipe for how to win in like a ladder
world where like you have a ladder
and you're just trying to go up the
ladder and you're just like, just
zoned in on exactly what you want.
Um, but I feel like the world is
increasingly, and that actually was, I
think, success for, for many, many years
because it was just true that if you
just honed in on a couple of good paths,
you would just, you know, be successful.
I feel like with, you know, ai, a GI
and the horizon, all that stuff, it's
just like the world is benefiting
curious people more and more and more.
Uh, I'm, I feel I have a bias towards
just like helping people become
more curious and, uh, equipping
them with like the tools to just use
that curiosity the best they can.
Um, yeah, curious if you
have any thoughts on that.
Yeah.
And uh, even if you think about
the way we educate children.
Uh, I think, and we're seeing a
lot more schools are getting open
and, or even parents who decide to
unschool or homeschool their kids.
I think this is, there's a shift
and a realization that if we want to
equip the next generation with the
right tools in order to succeed with
this new definition of success, that
is not that linear definition, that
is not a definition that is based on
having a clear vision and a clear plan.
We also need to teach them those skills
of how to be curious, how to learn, how
to learn, how to ask questions, how to
formulate a hypothesis, how to collect
data, how to make decisions based on
testing your assumptions rather than on
copy pasting, whatever blueprint another
person has recommended that you follow.
So I think.
It's very important that we
educate the next generation in this
sense and really equipping them.
But I also feel like as adults
ourselves, there's still a lot of time
for us to adapt and earn, learn some
of those patterns so we can relearn
new, new ways of navigating the world.
A hundred percent, a hundred percent.
Um, between curiosity and ambition, I'm
curious how much do you see those as
fixed versus, uh, what's more malleable
or how, how are either of those malleable?
I don't see any of them as fixed, really.
And even, uh, across those four mindsets,
cynicism, escapism, perfectionism, and
experimentalism, I see them as responses
that we have in the face of uncertainty,
and they can shift within the same person,
depending on our context, depending on our
constraints, depending on what we're we're
facing and experiencing at the moment.
So if you're, I don't know,
maybe if you're like, you know,
strained financially, for example.
I, it's going to be a little bit
harder to want to experiment.
You need to have a sense of safety.
If you are just coming out from trying
something new and different and it felt
spectacularly, it's also going to be
a bit harder to not be cynical and to
say, cool, okay, what did we learn?
Let's try again.
Let's try something new.
Right?
And so the same person can shift
through these, but I think it's
a little bit like a muscle.
And you can practice to put yourself
back into this more experimental approach
to, to navigating decisions and the
world, your career, your relationships.
You can just a little bit like
meditation when it's all about
like bringing your attention
back and re recentering yourself.
I think it's the same with your
mindset where you can practice this.
Um, and another element is obviously
just the people you have around you
and the role models that you have,
or even the group of friends and
colleagues that you have around you.
Yeah, it is a lot easier to experiment,
to take those risks, to even question
the, the assumptions that you have
at an individual and group level when
that's considered okay to do Right.
In your environment.
Yeah.
And I think that's probably
easier now than ever.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, especially with books, podcasts.
I remember, I think 2017 was the mode.
I was like, the, what you're describing
was kind of when I was in that mode of,
um, um, I was, I was like interning at a
random rural area of the, of the country,
uh, and away from all my friends and
just listening to like Tim Ferris, uh,
and all these entrepreneurship podcasts
and psychology podcasts and design
your life and all this kinda stuff.
And I think that's, that was the
first big shift I took in my, uh,
self-concept and shifting things.
Um, curious, what were some
of the biggest shifts for you?
Um, I know we mentioned, we talked
about psychedelics a little bit
earlier, but what were other kind of
like points in your life that caused
a shift in your mindset that almost.
Allowed for that freedom, like the
first few insights of being able to
kind of move in this new direction?
Hmm.
Yeah.
There were a couple, um, the
first one happened when I
was still working at Google.
I, I briefly talk about it in the book,
in the introduction, but it was when,
uh, doctors found a blood clot in my arm.
And when they asked me, okay,
they said, let's schedule the
surgery as quickly as possible.
And I was like, let me check my calendar.
Mm-hmm.
Because I wanted to schedule the
surgery at a time where it would not
create any conflict with any of the
product launches we were working on.
Yeah.
And I caught myself doing this.
And I felt like, okay, something's wrong.
My priorities are out of
whack here for me to do this.
That was the first mini realization
that maybe I was a little bit too
focused on success and my career
progression, that I was more
worried about that than my health.
That was one.
The second one was when my startup failed.
So I left Google.
I worked on a startup
and that didn't work out.
And for the first time in my
life I was completely lost.
I didn't have a plan, I didn't know
what I was supposed to do next.
Obviously one of the scripts is to
just start another startup, right?
Um, but it was the first time I really
questioned what I wanted to do next,
and I kind of went back to the drawing
board and tried to figure out, okay,
but what it is I actually want to do.
So that was another step for me.
And I feel like right now I am in one
of those phases again because I finished
my PhD, um, my book is coming out.
And, and I'm again in a phase where I'm
actually not quite sure what's next.
And it's actually really beautiful
to see how I'm responding to this
situation now, where year, a few years
ago there was still a little, um,
sense of panic, a little bit like of
I need to figure out as quickly as
possible what I am going to do next.
Whereas now I'm almost ing being in that
liminal space where anything is possible.
Anne-Laure: Yeah,
Pranab: I could do literally anything.
Yeah.
And this is actually great.
This is great.
This is amazing.
So it's, uh, yeah, it, it does come in
in waves and there are seasons of doing,
and I was in a season of doing just
now where PhD writing the book, a lot
of, uh, getting things done and uh, I'm
going to go back to a season of just.
Exploring and, uh, and there's
a lot less fear now around it.
Yeah, that's really cool.
What, uh, what do you think might be
in store for you in the next season?
I have so many ideas and
I do want to experiment.
Um.
There is the academic research aspect
where I'm not quite sure what I wanna do.
One option would just be to follow
a more linear approach here,
which would be to do a plus doc.
That's one option.
I'm not a hundred percent
sure that's what I want to do.
Another one I'm exploring is potentially
opening my own independent lab.
Which would be really the
nonlinear approach to it, which
could be really interesting too.
Um, from a learning and personal growth
perspective, I've become really interested
in plant medicine, not just psychedelics,
but I signed up to a herbalism course
that I'm going to do over the next 12
month that has nothing to do with my
current work, and that's going to be in
person in the countryside in England.
So that's really exciting
too, and I have no idea.
What I'm going to do with this is
just to learn and then writing.
I already know I'm probably going
to write more books because I
absolutely loved the process, even
the parts that were really difficult.
I loved having this container that I
could use to explore a bunch of questions
that I thought were interesting.
So there's probably going to be another
book at some point, but I, I wanna have
breathing space and, and not just start
the next book project straight away.
So I'm going to intentionally.
Try to not think about
what my next book might be.
Yeah.
For a little while.
Yeah, that makes total sense.
That's really good.
Those all seem like awesome times.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I feel very lucky.
And uh, and I do think that this life I
have right now is the product of actually
not trying to engineer it too much.
Yeah.
And, uh, of making sure I have this
space to just try things without
really having a clear plan in
terms of what's going to happen.
Yeah.
I think the age of the five-year
plan is basically dead.
Yeah.
And it's more of like, it's more like
what, uh, I'm not really sure what the
right word is it, it's not plan, but
it's almost like approach, what is your
five year approach or what is your five
year mindset or stance or something.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And uh, we're also very fortunate now
that, 'cause that's, um, kind of an
argument that I counter argument that I
hear quite often where people say, oh,
you can only do this because you're.
You're financially comfortable and
so you can do all of these things.
And, uh, in my case, which I'm not
doing anymore, I'm very fortunate now
that, um, all of my income is coming
from my writing, which is great.
But there was a long period of time
where I was freelancing while I
was exploring all of these things.
And we can do that now.
You can find work online and you
can make money and you can also
move to places where you can work
remotely and where the cost of living
is going to be a little bit less.
And, and again, I'm not saying that
everybody can do this and there are so
many different factors and you might be
the caregiver for someone, which means
that you cannot move or you, you know.
So yes.
But to say that you need to wait until
you're financially comfortable to
start experimenting with some areas of
your life or work is simply not true.
Yeah.
Uh, in my own case, a year and a
half ago when I. Went part-time with
my job to try to work in meditation
and, and the world, the world I was
more interested and cared about.
Um, I had, that was like the hardest
time of my life personally as well.
I had like a super high burn
rate 'cause I was kind of taking
care of some family stuff.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and it was like, it was
like, there were many times
where I thought, am I insane?
Because I was literally like
letting go of a fixed known
salary going into freelancing.
And I had like the highest possible
burn rate I've like ever had and
probably ever will for a while.
Um, and I think the way I managed it,
and I not even manage it, but just
like flowed through it and kept myself
sane, was I think working through
a lot of the emotions around it.
'cause there's like fear, uncertainty.
What if I go into my retirement account?
What if I go into, what
if I had to ask for help?
Like, what if I have to ask, go call
for GoFundMe or ask my, you know,
family for assistance or something.
And, and some of those are probably
more or less realistic, but just
like all these fears come up and
just, you just gotta just go work
through them in different ways.
Um, and then I also kind
of sized it appropriately.
Like, well, worst case by like this
day, if it doesn't work out, I'm
just gonna really search for a job.
And if that doesn't work out, I'm
just gonna do, like, I, I, I like
having this idea of having like
my, um, best possible backup plan.
I'm like, worst case, I can always
be a tutor for like 40 bucks an hour.
And like, I know my minimum is
basically that because I like, you
know, working with people and stuff.
So anyways, I think that was a way
that I worked with it, but, um, that's
actually super helpful to try and decouple
the emotion, the fear and the source
of the fear, and very often realizing
that the fear makes sense, right?
It does make sense because you,
from an evolutionary perspective,
your brain is just trying to,
you, wants you to survive, right?
So.
You're going to, those emotions
are designed for you to, to
pick the safest path possible.
And so obviously all of the alarm
bells are going to go off when
you're doing this crazy thing.
Yeah.
Um, but that's also what
makes us human, right.
This ability to say, yes, okay,
I know this is scary, but this
is still what I want to explore.
Yeah.
So being able to decouple this,
realizing also that a lot of the things
that you're scared about, even if
they were to happen, would be fine.
I have this example in the book of one
of my friends who actually at some point
found himself in a situation where he
was really struggling with money and
he did reach out to a bunch of us and
ask everyone for a little bit of money
that he, and he said, you know, I'll
give it back whenever things are better.
And you know, we talked
about it afterwards and it
was super scary to do this.
But the reality is that from the other
side, as friends, for us it was the
easiest thing to do in the world.
And we were.
All honored that he would feel comfortable
enough to ask us and that we could
give him that money in that moment
where it was a bit difficult for him.
Yeah.
And so I think going through this exercise
of actually really going through the
scenario of what would happen and saying,
okay, let's, let's say I get to that
place where I have to ask for the money.
What would my friends think?
None of your friends are going
to think that you're a loser.
They're just going to be so
happy that they can help.
Right?
Yeah.
So yeah, sometimes we're paralyzed
with fear because we don't take the
time to actually connect with it and
examine it and really go through what
it means and where it comes from.
And it's such a useful thing to do,
to just do that, go through those
steps and from the source to the, the
end of it and following that thread.
Yeah.
And I think it's, uh, it's one of those
things like even with, um, meditation
or meditation progress or things like
that, following the fear all the way.
Um, and I get a lot of, I
got a lot of this from Art of
Accomplishment, Joe Huts work too.
But like following the emotion all
the way to the source or all the
way to the end, it's like it can be
pretty crazy, uh, and really intense.
And the way I almost conceptualize
a lot of meditative progress or
meditative path is being able to
digest more and more intensity and
being able to be with the intensity.
'cause oftentimes these like scripts or
these, the stories are there to, as a
way to kind of like, just push it away.
You know, the ladder have a
thing to focus on, don't have
to worry about anything else.
And, uh, yeah, curious how you
view intensity or if it's, if it's
a similar kind of thing for you.
I try to, yeah, be
intentional with it as well.
You know, we talked about seasons a little
bit and I think that's the, the same here.
I know that sometimes in my
life, a lot of intensity is good.
I know that other times I'd
rather feel more grounded, which
is more helpful in that moment.
But is, as you said, is really about.
Not seeing intensity as
something that's bad necessarily.
Uh, if it's there, it's better to
engage with it, to be fully in it,
to really feel it and process it.
Yeah, so you can move past whatever
barrier blockage you're feeling
in that moment, and you can
apply this to anything, really,
any emotion that you're feeling.
It's always better to just engage
with it and engaging with it can
take a lot of different forms, right?
Sometimes it can be really
like living it in your body.
That's why a lot of people, they like
body movement, dancing or whatever.
Sometimes it's just sitting with
it and or watching it, you know,
past meditation, et cetera.
Yeah.
Sometimes it's writing, sometimes it's
having a conversation with a friend.
Sometimes it could be painting,
writing poetry, um, standup comedy,
like whatever form or shape it takes.
But engaging with the
emotion is usually healthier.
Than trying to ignore it or trying
to push it down and repress it and
replace it with something else.
It's kinda interesting.
It just this morning I saw, uh, a
increasingly popular tweet that was
about a paper on, uh, maybe repressing
memories is good for mental health.
So basically the opposite
of what you said.
Yeah, but I mean, I I, it's funny
'cause I think the definitions of
mental health can be different there,
where in the short run I think there
is a real thing of like basically just
dissociating or pushing it down as
much as possible can make it so you
are not in the throes of the intensity.
But I, I, I feel like in the long run
that just kind of just makes things a
lot worse 'cause it leaks, it's kind of
not good and almost like the definition
of mental health is, you know, 'cause a
lot of times it's like healing work or
this opening up will actually be intense,
uh, or will kind of bring up difficulty.
But is, uh, so in some ways it
maybe makes mental health a little
bit worse before it gets better.
Mm-hmm.
But I find that it probably is a way
to, like, that's otherwise you're
kind of just, uh, adding bandaids to
kind of a leaky ship or something.
Yeah.
I haven't read the paper, but the first
thing that came to mind to me is that
unfortunately in today's society, we
have removed a lot of the containers
where it's safe to express and relive
like whatever traumatic, difficult,
challenging memory that we have.
And so maybe that's why it feels
safer to repress the memory because
you don't have a safe place where you
can, I. Express it and engage with it.
A lot of the rituals that we used to
have to go through those moments and go
through those transitions and whether
it's grief, whether it's even getting
married, having a child right, which
are fairly traumatic actually are
things that now you're expected to just
go through and do your on your own.
And, um, so yeah, I'll read the
paper, but to me I'm very curious
to see whether it is really in
general repressing the memory.
That's good.
Or if it is in today's context
when, where you don't have access
to a safe space hundred Yeah.
To express it.
Yeah.
It is maybe better to just repress it
until you find that space where you
can do so safely to express it safely.
Totally.
That makes a lot of sense.
Um, what, uh, neuroscience topics are
kind of at the edge of what you're
exploring or what things are you kind
of curious about or kind of getting
excited about as you review papers?
I'm, uh, so in my, my job research,
um, I'm at the A DHD research
lab at King's College London.
So I study A DHD, and currently I'm
fascinated with the relationship
between curiosity and A DHD from
an evolutionary perspective.
Anne-Laure: Yeah.
Pranab: And I, I recently published a
paper about what I called Hyper curiosity
theory, which is explaining that a lot of
the behaviors that we see in people who
have been diagnosed with A DHD and they
are associated with A DHD traits might
have had, um, an evolutionary advantage
in previous context, premodern world.
And, uh, in particular being
curious about a lot of things.
Uh, those exploratory behaviors might
have allowed us at a group level.
To have like almost this like, kind
of like um, um, r and d group of
people who would go and poke around
and try new things and explore more.
And, uh, it wouldn't have been useful
if everybody in the group was like that.
You just need a little group that
does the r and d. But in today's world
where there's high stimulation, a lot
of opportunities to be distracted,
algorithms that are designed to
grab and maintain your curiosity,
this can actually be, this R and d
mind can be detrimental, difficult,
uh, create challenges for people.
Uh, and those are what
we call A DHD traits now.
Mm-hmm.
For some of them, obviously there
are a lot of other traits that are
associated with attention deficit and,
uh, impulsivity, et cetera, but I'm
looking specifically at curiosity.
Mm-hmm.
And there's very little
research on it at the moment.
So that's.
The area that I'm, it's kind of meta,
but I'm very curious about at the moment.
Yeah, that's exciting.
That's really cool.
I mean, a lot of that I resonate
with where I don't think I've ever
been diagnosed with a DH adhd, but
sometimes I'm just like, is it me?
Is it just that I'm curious?
Is the world making me more,
you know, sporadic or erratic?
Uh, and yeah, I, I'm curious what you
think about that, of this idea that
the world can make people more a DHD,
you know, not, not in a clinical sense,
maybe, maybe in a clinical sense too,
but, you know, with the internet,
with social media, with short form
video, infinite scroll, it does seem
like things are getting more airy.
Like things are more, you know,
hard, hard to stay grounded
or hard to focus on one thing.
Yeah.
I mean, you may, I have noticed
that I talk about A DHD traits,
and that's the way I, I see it.
And, uh, there's, it's obviously a
subjective debate in the A DHD research
community, but personally, I think that
right now talking about a DHD trait
is the most scientifically correct
way of talking about this, because.
I'm not a hundred percent convinced
that there is such a condition, like a
monolithic, monolithic, sorry, my French.
Yeah, yeah.
Monolithic condition, um, that we could
label A DHD, and, uh, the simple fact
that we had to create subtypes, that we
have different ways of diagnosing it.
And let me say, you're this
type and you're not this type.
It's, uh, you know, it makes more sense
for me that there are a collection
of traits that are associated
with what we call A DHD today.
And that can be exacerbated based
on what environment you're in.
And I do agree, I think that today's
environment is exacerbating those traits.
Um, and then the, the, you know,
million dollar question, but which
I also think might be the case,
is that there's probably a bit of
epigene going on in there as well.
As I said, from an evolutionary
perspective, I think those traits
might have been very useful.
In an environment that was information
scarce and resource scarce, where you did
want to have those exploratory behaviors,
you almost wanted to be more distracted.
Right.
Because you wanted people where if
you hear something moving in the
bushes, they would go, what's going on?
And tell everybody, Hey look, look,
look, something's going happening here.
You wanted that in today's
environment, not so useful.
So it's 'cause it's everywhere.
Exactly.
It's the opposite of information
and uh, uh, resource scarce.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yes.
Um, and I do have a diagram in the
paper that I wrote actually that
is around that the, the amount
of resources and information that
you have in the environment and
how that relates to A DHD traits.
So I obviously wanna caveat this
with, this is just a hypothesis
and I'm still doing the research.
Yeah.
Um, but.
I'm in the camp of researchers that
think that those are a collection of
traits that can be exacerbated depending
on which environment you're in versus
a, the dichotomy that we have sometimes
the categorical and medical approach
to it that just says whether you have
a DHG or you don't have a DH adhd.
Mm-hmm.
I think it's more complicated than that.
Right.
It does seem like for a lot of things
there's a DHD and other types of,
um, things in DSM five or other
types of, of, of, uh, diagnoses.
It, the spectrum view makes more sense,
but I could also see how there also can
be a dilution, um, of people being like,
oh, you know, it can, it can kind of
take away from people with more serious
cases, but I think the traits framework
makes, makes it so it's, it is, it's
more linear and you can still, uh,
make distinctions for people with more.
Intensity or severity.
Yeah.
I think the way my, uh,
former PhD supervisor saw it
is actually kind of helpful.
What, for her, she felt like, and we
don't necessarily agree on everything,
but she felt like you should get a
diagnosis of A DHD for practical reasons,
if this is actually interfering with your
daily life, your work and your studies.
And so if you might need access to support
or medication, then we can use that label.
That doesn't necessarily mean that this
is an actual thing at an ontological
level when it comes to you have a DG,
but for practical reasons of saying
you need access to medication, you need
support, then we'll use that label.
Yeah.
It just makes things easier.
Yeah.
And that solves for the problem of
dilution because you could say, okay, you
have all of those a D straight, you have
the spectrum and past a certain threshold.
That's when I. You get access to
medication and that's based really on
just the quality of your experience and
how it affects you on a day-to-day basis.
Yeah.
Which requires quite a bit.
It is very contextual because I, I could
imagine, depending on the environment
you're in, it may affect one differently,
uh, depending on like what you perceive
as like success or not success or just
requires some self-awareness to be
understanding of like where, where it's,
I guess, and this is why there is a little
bit of research showing that you tend to
find, um, more, I can't remember exactly
what can, was it like a correlation?
I can't remember the design.
Mm-hmm.
But basically there was some
sort of association between A
DHD traits and entrepreneurship.
Anne-Laure: Mm. Yeah.
Pranab: And again, I think
it was just correlational.
'cause it was a pretty small study,
but the, the, what I, I think is that.
People who have a DHD might maybe
tend to seek the kind of careers where
they have a little bit more freedom
in terms of how they design their
work, how in terms of their schedule,
in terms of managing their tasks.
And so because of that, you see
people, more entrepreneurs who have
those A DHD traits, and in those
cases, a lot of them might not even
need medication anymore because they
have designed their environment in
a way where it's actually completely
okay for them to have these traits.
Yeah.
I'm curious, what does, uh, mindful
productivity look like with A
DHD traits or just in general?
Mm-hmm.
So I find that a thing that I've
been really into the last couple
years is just seeing the role of
emotions within our productivity,
especially with knowledge work.
Like I think that's something that is just
so underplayed and under, uh, appreciated.
Um, and I know you write about
that in your book, so curious
your, your view on that.
Yeah, a lot of people think that
mindfulness and productivity are
two completely opposite concepts
and that they can't work together.
But if you go back to the definition
of mindfulness, which is really about
paying attention in a non-judgmental
way, and you apply this to productivity,
you get mindful productivity.
It's really about paying attention to
your internal states, paying attention to
your emotions, paying attention to your
context, your environment, the different
sources of pressure, the different
commitments, and making decisions in
terms of your work and how you direct
your attention in a very intentional way.
That is, that's what man productivity
is, and so it, whether you're
neurodivergent or neurotypical, those
kind of principles are the same.
And, um.
There's the, so paying attention
part that can take a lot of
different shapes depending on
what is more comfortable for you.
Personally, I'm a big fan of journaling.
Anne-Laure: Yeah.
Pranab: So I journal every morning,
but other people might just want to do
a weekly review, that's fine as well.
But just making sure that you
have space throughout the week to
check in with yourself and, uh,
and say, okay, what's working?
What's not working?
What do I wanna tweak or change
or approach differently next week?
So that's really this kind of
paying attention, looking at the
signals and adjusting accordingly.
And, uh, the second part of this mindful
productivity aspect is also being
intentional in terms of your outputs and
asking yourself, is that really what I
should be working on in the first place?
Does that actually make sense?
I might the right person to do it,
maybe someone else should do this.
Maybe I can delegate it.
The beautiful thing today is that.
It used to be that when you said,
maybe I can dedicate it, it would
have to be to another human being,
but now you can dedicate it to an ai.
Huge.
Yes.
That really changes everything, right?
Yeah.
And you can still be productive, but
in a more mindful way where it doesn't
necessarily mean that you have to work
really hard the entire day, as long as the
right things get done at the right time.
Exactly.
Then that's good.
And I think you wrote a couple, a
few years ago, I think you wrote
an interstitial journaling article.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was super useful to me a year
ago, um, where basically to get out of
this really intense phase of burnout.
Um, well, the main way I got out of
it, I was on a meditation retreat
and I just cried for four days.
Uh, and that really helped.
But, uh, after that, I think
the way to really integrate that
experience and to move, um, through
the burnout into more energy, I
basically just journaled every day.
And I inters and I interstitial
journaled every day as I was doing
my tasks in a way that was kind of
inspired by IFS internal family systems.
Um, but I did that every day for
about a month and it really helped.
And even now, um.
The thing that I see that's
really helpful is basically
just increasing metacognition.
And I think the thing for me that
is a blocker for that, or the times
where it's hard where I just stop
doing weekly reviews and stop doing
all this other stuff that's helpful.
It's just stress it, I'll just feel
too overly stressed or overwhelmed or
nervous system, a little dysregulated
and I just want to push it away and
just kind of, you know, numb out.
Um, but when I can kind of move
through that and keep at least a
little bit of metacognition, then I
think the coolest thing now is AI can
just like 10 x your metacognition.
So if you just have enough that you can
use AI to leverage, it can just like
multiply and just keep things moving.
Yes.
No, absolutely.
I, uh, I literally used that this morning.
Uh, I was sitting at my desk and I
was supposed to work on something
before coming and meeting you and,
uh, I was just procrastinating so much
and scrolling on my phone instead.
And I pulled my journal out and I wrote
literally five lines and just being Okay.
Procrastinating, what's going on?
Yeah.
Oh, I'm stressed because I don't really
know how to approach these things.
Yeah.
And, uh, not quite sure I'm qualified for,
I don't know why they want me to do this.
And just writing about it and
then I managed to start working
on it before coming here instead
of just staying like this.
So, as you said, just having a
metacognitive practice that can help you
move through this is incredibly helpful.
And just in general, accepting those
feelings of the stuckness, this
is actually a signal also mm-hmm.
That you can work with.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's like, uh, I was recently
doing gratitude on emotions I
wouldn't normally feel gratitude on.
And, uh, I think what came up
for me is I feel gratitude for
the stuckness for showing me.
There's something I want to address.
You know what I mean?
Yes.
And it's just like such a weird
reframe that I'm like, I can
be thankful for the resistance.
I can be thankful for the stuckness.
It's just, I, it's, it's been a
cool part of the practice for me.
Yeah.
Um, it's very applicable too.
It's like super practical.
Anne-Laure: Mm-hmm.
Pranab: Where now it's just like, oh,
every time I'm on my phone and scrolling
for more than like a couple minutes.
And I don't want to be, that's actually
just a mini cope or a mini numbing
to like push out an emotion and that
I've never thought of that before.
You know, like realizing that all of
these are just responses for emotional emo
emotional overwhelm, or it doesn't have to
always be overwhelming, but some kind of.
Internal avoidance or something.
Yeah.
And the more you pay attention
to them, the more you can create
those mini, like if then Yeah.
Processes.
Uh, yeah.
For me it's scrolling and
it's, uh, eating sugar.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so yeah, so those are
my, my two main copes.
And I can be, if I'm reaching for
chocolate, for whatever, and if
I'm scrolling, then I will grab
my journal and I will write a
few lines and see what happens.
And so the, the more you notice, the more
you can use this muscle same and you build
it and it becomes a lot easier and you
stay stuck for a lot less longer also.
Yeah.
When you do that.
Yeah.
I think I've had this schema internally
where it was like I would walk
past a cookie shop, uh, and just
be like, oh, I should get a cookie.
Uh, and it was interesting,
like, where's that coming from?
And it's, it's, this has been a
thing that I've been working on for
years and it's actually, I mean,
it's really improved quite a bit.
Um, there are a lot of different
angles and it's such a, such a banal
kind of like, not a big deal answer,
but I think it actually represents
how all this stuff kind of works.
Where maybe when I was a kid, I
like used baked goods as a way to
kind of cope and, and self-soothe.
And it was also just fun.
Um, and then over time that
that response kind of happens.
So then, you know, space between
stimulus and response, just noticing
really helps, um, gratitude towards
the feeling can really help.
Um, creating different cues.
There's all the atomic habit stuff
of like cues and, and all that.
And then there's kind of really
going into it, and sometimes even
in like a therapy session, I like
went through all the memories of
when baked goods were there for me
throughout the years and just cried.
It was just like, oh, cool.
And at the end I just felt
less, uh, hooked into the, the
grips of that conditioning.
Yeah.
Which is really interesting.
So, yeah.
And I think this applies to like
work stuff and just a bunch of
things that kind of connects back to
what we were talking about earlier.
Also, the fact that you had
access to a safe space to
actually go through the memories.
Yeah.
And untangle them.
Understand them.
Accept them, process them.
And then move past them.
Anne-Laure: Yeah.
Pranab: Which I think
is also very important.
That's also why I love having
a meta cognitive practice.
Again, in my case, it's journaling,
but a lot of people have
different ways of doing this.
Uh, know people who have, for example,
just a weekly check-in with a friend.
Mm-hmm.
Because they're not really into writing.
And so there are lots
of ways of doing this.
But what's great when you do
that is that you can also start
noticing repeating patterns.
So it's fine if you notice, okay,
I'm reaching out for a big good
or a scrolling, then I write
about it, I process it and fine.
Right.
But if you notice that it's been four or
5, 6, 7 times that you're doing this, then
it might be worth asking yourself, okay,
do I need, um, a, like a better, safer.
Uh, dedicated container for me to
process whatever is going on there.
Right.
And in your case it was therapy, but for a
lot of other people sharing circles, like
there are lots of different modalities
that psychedelics that you can work with
and, um, and just noticing the pattern and
deciding, because now that you've noticed,
deciding to actually figure out what's
going on and untangle what's going on.
Yeah.
I think the, the unit or the
fundamental mechanism is just
noticing more observations.
The more noticings you notice
a few of the same things over
time and you get the insight.
Mm-hmm.
You know, the insight, you
can do something about it.
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
That's really cool.
Nice.
I think we're almost at time, uh,
totally could talk for a couple
more hours, but this is super fun.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was amazing.
Could you tell us more about your book?
Yeah.
The book is called Tiny Experiments and
it's about how to live a more experimental
life and it contains a lot of the
ideas that we just talked about today.
So you can order it now.
It's available on Amazon and
really anywhere books are sold.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Oh, and where can people find you online?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I write a weekly newsletter@Nesslabs.com.
I send it every Thursday.
So just go there, enter your email
address and you'll hear from me.
Awesome.
Thank you.
Thank you.