Transforming the Student Experience with Online Education

In this podcast, Professor Jo-Anne Muray talks to Dr Margaret Korosec, Dean of Online and Digital Education at the University of Leeds about transforming the student experience with online education. 

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Join us as we explore the dynamic world of higher education at the University of Aberdeen. In each episode, you'll hear insightful discussions with educators who share their practice, highlighting what worked well and what didn't. Whether you're an academic, supporting teaching and learning, a student, or simply passionate about education, this podcast offers valuable perspectives and thought-provoking conversations to keep you informed and inspire you to try something new. If you would like to contribute, please get in touch with the Centre for Academic Development as we’d love to hear from you.

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So welcome to this podcast on education Conversations.

And today I'm delighted to be joined by Doctor Margaret Korsak, who is a wonderful colleague and friend,

was a huge amount of experience in leading online and digital education and thought it would be a great opportunity to chat through,

particularly online. Uh, education was Margaret.

So welcome, Margaret, and thank you so much for your time today here.

And thank you so much for having me. This is very exciting and a topic that I absolutely love.

So it's always a joy to, uh, to meet with you anyway.

And, uh, and we have a shared, uh, passion here, so absolutely.

Margaret, it be really good to hear a bit about your experience,

because obviously you've worked in many different places leading online and also in different countries.

And so if you could just chat through that a little bit.

Sure. Um. So it goes back. Really? I mean, I've been in education for several decades, but, um, really pivotal in that space has been, um,

was my experience probably over 16 years ago in, uh, at Western Governors University in the States.

Um, that is a fully online competency based model.

And there there was never a campus. So the entire institution was designed fully to support online students.

Um, and at that point, it was fairly early days. It was kind of within the first ten years of that institution.

Um, so it was just kind of rooting down and establishing itself still very small team when I started and, uh, 12,000 students.

But within three years, by 2000 and so, sorry, 2012, there were already 36,000 students.

Now it's one of the largest fully online kind of providers in the state, um, at over over 130,000.

I think it much more, but I don't want to misquote myself. So, yeah, so huge and intentionally designs institution.

And I think, um, that's that was pivotal in the sense of what is possible in a different model, especially that competency based,

um, space and the fact that every month there was a starting, uh, uh, enrolments, you could start any given month.

Um, and so just a very different model, which we can go into later, but just in general,

it really disrupted kind of see the model of seat time, um, and, and trends.

You know, completely transformed actually the student experience in that, in that space.

Um, another example really is, uh, my time at University of Derby Online Learning, which again is uh,

they had within a traditional university setting, a post 92, um, setting a dedicated online entity, let's say, within the university structure.

So it was very specifically built to support the online student experience, knowing that it you know, they needed specialist,

uh, recruitment and marketing and, uh, conversion efforts, um, as well as, of course, the design of the programs.

Um, that was a brilliant, really, um, initiative that was very mature, really early at the time,

um, established, you know, in that probably over 20 years ago in the UK.

So a great model there. Um, so there I led the design team and, um, it built it with some investment funding.

They launched about 13 new degree programs in a very, very short amount of time, like two years.

And that was just fun and dynamic and really exciting to see that kind of coming together, working with academics.

But again, the whole academic community was, um, dedicated to serving online students.

Um, my time now at Leeds and at the University of Leeds and again, Leeds has been in the online space, um, for um,

5 or 6 years, um, and working primarily with partners to deliver the online portfolio, um University of Leeds now.

And um, that part of what I've been leading on is just growing now, this opportunity to expand the portfolio,

looking more broadly at the professional learning space within that, um,

uh, portfolio as well, and aligning it with a broader institutional, um, portfolio and,

and building in capacity, internal capacity within existing kind of structures and existing.

Uh, systems. And so in a way, those three examples give three different models of how to how to engage and offer,

uh, and expand, let's say, the portfolio to online learning,

um, fully by design, integrating it in but a little bit of a satellite and then just fully integrating it into, um, what what is a traditional campus.

So I've learned so much and I love I love the space.

It's great reflection. Wow. I mean, that's amazing market.

And that's that's a huge amount of experience. And as you said, lots.

So thinking and learning there about different ways.

And I guess, you know, the whole sector has really been looking at where the can be growth in online.

And so when I reflect back to or well over 20 years ago,

when I think that my time starting and leading and online and some of the comments at this time around,

this is just a fad and this isn't really going anywhere then known 20 years later.

You know, it's just been an immense growth and.

But stick to the pandemic. We've seen a rise.

And then with the current situation in the higher education sector, how can we really grow our own line?

One of the things that we've talked a lot about, Aberdeen,

is the difference between this sort of on campus model versus the online model, and I'm specifically thinking about intakes.

So what's on campus? You know, you've usually got maybe two intakes a year because people have got to think about moving and all of that.

And I'm. Thinking here around about a postgraduate taught.

We does this online because people don't need to relocate.

They can potentially start a bit quicker. Um, I just wondered what your thoughts are around sort of multiple intake points.

Yeah. So, um, it's a great, great point in to what I mentioned about Western Governors University.

I mean, it was the first of every month was an intake, and those intakes are really large.

Um, but again, they had the entire infrastructure was there to support that kind of scale.

Um, and so scale was definitely the, the mode of working and operating without question.

Um, I mean, what we're seeing generally in the, in, in the UK, you know, will be two, two, six intakes.

Um, I think, um, I think there's a value in that, but I think there's only value in multiple intakes when you're really working already at scale,

uh, because, you know, otherwise it's, you know, there's if you're not quite at scale, you know, if you don't have and again, this is one of my,

one of my big questions is what is scale like what what actually is what does that mean?

Right. So the big questions that uh, will be addressing, uh, you know, in some future events.

But because you know what? What does that scale look like, I think, um, yes.

So Leeds has six intakes with some programs to with some of the other programs depending on different partners and things like this.

Um, and I, you know, I can see the value in both.

Uh, you're absolutely right though, in that those students who are coming, they want to start and they, you know,

they may find the program, apply, have the offer, accept, enrol within, you know, a much shorter period of time.

And so you need to be able to have, uh, a little bit more flexibility.

It's really difficult to keep them warm, to keep them engaged.

You know if you're saying, okay you can start in, you know, nine months time or something,

you know, it's it does need to be a bit more, um, responsive, you know, for their needs.

Yeah. And I think can. Would be helpful to hear some of your thoughts of the design,

because I know that something you're really passionate about and you've led a lot of those developments,

at least around, you know, designing for online and thinking about then how to take that into what that looks like for multiple intakes.

Yes. Well, exactly. So, um, because to your point exactly.

When you're talking about multiple intakes, that means, you know, what might be considered module one is actually not everyone's module one.

And so, you know, is there flexibility in the design of the program.

And again, an emphasis on program level design so that you have that option to have multiple in um starting points.

So in other words, one of maybe uh three or even more modules could be the first module.

And then uh, students are going through that cycle in different combinations, still achieving what they need to achieve.

But it's not a prerequisite necessarily for a subsequent module that tends to work in those early days.

You know, once you get into it, once people start,

then you may have those dependencies or prerequisites, but that is that is important for the design.

Um, in the consideration of how are we giving that flexibility.

And ultimately we're talking about flexible learning options. We're talking about, you know, working adults.

Um, and also what do they bring? What what actually are they exempt from what prior learning might they have.

So they may not even have to take something in the mix.

Um, you know, those are all kind of those design considerations in a way as well.

Yeah. I mean that that's really interesting.

And you mentioned there around about this sort of, um, adult learners and typically may also be working or caring responsibilities as well.

And um. So I guess the next question is around about.

Keen to hear your thoughts on asynchronous versus synchronous and how to, you know,

design that and, and then the communication and the collaboration in the online space.

Yeah. It's really it's fascinating because I think there are, you know,

there's not a single definition of what online learning postgraduate degree looks like.

Um, you get things out there that, um, in the States, you know, high volume, which actually have very little, uh, academic, um, engagement.

Um, and yet they're designed, you know, they're, they're good programs as well.

Um, and, but it's a different, very different student experience.

So for me, it's very much about setting the expectation to make sure that students know what to expect.

Um, and that's, you know, needs to be really clear on that first point of contact, you know, what is this program?

What is the experience? I think there's a time in place for for both.

Um, I think, um, you know, I think there's a huge value in having an expert available to you as a learner, as a student,

have that opportunity to engage and speak directly, whether as a group or a, um, a weekly kind of check in point.

Um, but again, that needs to be designed in that needs to be costed in, you know, what is the cost implication of that type of engagement?

Mean? Um, how does that translate to the fees of the course?

Um, you know, so those are all those the holistic view overall.

You know, you need to really there's who's implications. So so there's ones that I mentioned that may not have so much academic, uh, face time.

Let's say, um, are fairly low cost, you know.

And again, that serves a market. Um, that's also needed.

So, you know, it's, um. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense, doesn't it?

Because it's giving options for people in terms of their availability, their availability when they can study.

But, you know, affordability comes into question there as well.

So yeah, it does make sense. I mean, some of the things that people will say to me are concerns that the ways around online learning,

particularly people who've maybe not been involved in teaching and assessing online,

is is how to create that connection and, and that sense of belonging to the university in that collaboration and conversations with students.

Yes. I mean, I think that's it's core to the design.

I mean, that does need to be designed and it can't be just ad hoc or I hope fingers crossed it works.

And, um, hopefully everyone kind of has this great sense of community.

You do have to be very intentional with that in the design of it in the in,

in the design of the learning moments and learning experience, but also how students are engaging with each other.

Now, we've we've seen, you know, that sometimes things are working, but we we generally know that they tend to be working adults.

And, you know, they don't really necessarily need to network with someone from a different country.

Or, I mean, maybe they're curious, but in the end, you know,

they're weighing down weighing against their their workload at work or family and otherwise.

Um, and so, you know, the best design doesn't mean that everyone's going to have to take up those opportunities.

However, in in all of my experiences at, at three different institutions with, with, you know, fairly robust and good, um, very good.

Um, online degrees, you only need to go to graduation to see that.

Oh my goodness, their sense of belonging to the institution, their sense of pride that they've earned this degree,

their sense of connection with their other students that they're graduating with and with the academic community is absolutely there.

So, you know, it's like they have gone on this journey together. And the fact that they, you know, oh, how's your baby?

How's your how's I heard you got married, you know, or whatever.

All of these life life happenings that that is normal as an adult, as a person is a human, you know,

these things come out in the conversation because because they've been there together experiencing that.

And so I well, I have no doubt that the connection is incredibly strong.

But it's also not just by accident.

It is absolutely kind of part of that design experience and part of the commitment also of the academic community and,

and the services that support, you know, that experience. Yeah, it's it's really great to see.

It's been my experience as well, is seeing students meet face to face for the first time at graduation,

but absolutely so connected, such good friends, um, and remaining lifelong friends.

And I see that, you know, with students that, um, I've taught online, um, many, many years ago and still see them having those connections,

you know, with myself, but also with others, um, all over social media, many, many years on.

So it's it's really. Interesting and heartwarming to to see, to see that develop.

And it just shows that you can you can have that.

But as you said, it's about designing the and and encouraging and promoting collaboration and communication.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

It's graduation is always the best because that coming with their family and and things like this sometimes to the UK for the very first time as well,

which is, you know, just that added dimension of international reach, you know of, of the online programs and the stories they have of,

of why they took an online degree and what it enabled for them.

So it just, you know, always solidifies.

You know why I love doing this? Because it does reach those who might not have otherwise had that opportunity.

Yeah, I know, it's it's great. Well, thank you so much.

I really, as always, I love speaking with you.

It's great to learn from you. And thank you so much for your time today.

Thank you so much. Always I always learn so much from you too.

So it's, uh. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much, too.

And next. Margaret. This podcast is brought to you by the University of Aberdeen.