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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;27;01
Chris
Alright gang Pri is out this week, and Aaron is running a little late. And so, Derek, it's you, me and our special guest, Von Mises, with nothing but room to, like, just nerd out on NFTs here.
00;00;27;03 - 00;00;28;27
VonMises
Nice. Thanks for having me, guys.
00;00;28;29 - 00;00;40;19
Derek
Yeah, I love I love having a VM here in the, in the saddle. I think this will be a fun one. And I think the three of us have been chatting about NFTs with each other for a long time. It'll be fun to record this conversation.
00;00;40;21 - 00;00;41;13
VonMises
For sure.
00;00;41;16 - 00;00;49;14
Chris
Yeah, let's do it, gang. Let's start with yesterday's news. Grant's drop with fellowship. Really, really strong results. What do we think here, von?
00;00;49;14 - 00;00;50;09
Derek
You want to kick it off?
00;00;50;14 - 00;01;10;04
VonMises
Yeah, sure. Thank you. I mean, look, I one thing I want to say before we start is I think that fellowship has been doing a great job in the space. They really bring a lot of great. I work my provenance show co-hosts, you know, Abby, Alex and Dylan, you know, really turn me on to them. And I'm impressed with everything they're doing in the space.
00;01;10;04 - 00;01;36;12
VonMises
So I really shouldn't be surprised. But I will say, as a fan of Grant and having recently picked up a nice one of one by him, I was quite surprised by the price action. I was expecting them to come more like half the price that they came at. And, so I'm I'm pleasantly surprised as a collector. And I guess I'm trying to kind of wonder what the implications are for the market.
00;01;36;14 - 00;01;59;28
VonMises
You know, someone like Grant as a reasonably well-established one of one artists like doing something that's I based trained on his work, you know, what does that what does that mean? And is there going to be this big split between like pre AI and post I or maybe Grant was using AI the whole time? I don't know. But like I was kind of surprised and I'd be curious what you guys have to say on.
00;02;00;03 - 00;02;05;19
Aaron
Hey guys. I was surprised to Derek, do you know was using AI before? I feel like what.
00;02;05;22 - 00;02;31;07
Derek
I was expecting Chris to jump in, but. Hey, Aaron, what's going on? It. Could we just start recording? We'll, let's I'll jump right in to answer your question here. Yeah. I mean, so, so so I guess my larger view here, I'm like, the use of AI is just, I and I don't even I don't know if I'm going to directly tackle your question here, but, like, you know, my, my, my thoughts are this is a tool, just like any other tool is a tool, just like Photoshop as a tool or P5.
00;02;31;07 - 00;03;01;20
Derek
JS is a tool for creative coders or blockchains or a tool. And you know, blockchain entropy is a tool in the in the case of our blocks and, you know, like I think the, you know, when a new tool is released, I think there's often like this outcry around how easy or simple or, maybe reductive. Some of what previously took many, many hours to accomplish can now be accomplished by, you know, a robot or synthetic intelligence or automation.
00;03;01;22 - 00;03;35;07
Derek
And I would say like, that's, you know, that's all of our tendencies. It's like, oh, I can do this now. But I think, like the real magic is sitting back and letting artists fumble around with these tools for a while and start to kind of build a repertoire around how they can use these tools in ways that feel unique or distinguished or nuanced and allow kind of a this new magic, like this new creative surface area of what art can look like in a world post new tool to to kind of like, you know, move the chains forward in terms of, and in terms of just kind of the lineage of art and the,
00;03;35;09 - 00;04;08;20
Derek
the art of making creative work. And I guess that will become my preface to the to to Grand who, you know, I think it's, listen, there will there will always be folks who refuse to use these new tools in ways to further their own creative endeavors. I think it's unrealistic for for us, as, you know, as, as consumers or as, people who are engaging with the work to kind of just draw these lines and I'm here for kind of like, however, artists want to play with these new things to in ways that feel unique and distinguished, to kind of explore.
00;04;08;23 - 00;04;39;15
Derek
And I think my, my thought is like, Grant accomplished something really interesting here. And I would say the market would tend to agree and, and I and I think availing himself to some of these, these new creative tools is interesting in terms of, you know, the evolution of his creative practice, which historically has been, you know, very hand-drawn, very, very kind of like minimalist, lots of sharp edges and clean lines and, and a very specific color palettes.
00;04;39;23 - 00;04;50;24
Derek
I, I think it's cool and I think it's interesting. And I want to see how he continues to use new tools, to further his, his identity as an artist. I don't know, I just think that's kind of kind of fun to think about.
00;04;51;01 - 00;05;02;10
VonMises
I just want to add something to that. I'm just kind of curious, like, will there be a big, like, bifurcation or separation between, like, the age of an artist that had an established.
00;05;02;10 - 00;05;03;10
Chris
Career.
00;05;03;12 - 00;05;21;29
VonMises
Pre block, pre AI and is now using AI? And does this mean that grants older pieces that are not using AI, do they become less valuable? Do they become more valuable? Like how does that change the relationship of AI versus that AI art? Yeah, it's an awesome question.
00;05;22;01 - 00;05;42;17
Derek
It's a great it's a it's an excellent question. I'll throw my $0.02 out. But I'm so curious to hear from you three how you think about this. I think it's very possible that like, there is a premium to kind of like the early hand-drawn work. Now, whether or not it's because it was some of his early Foundation foundational work that kind of like set the stage for concepts that he would build upon later.
00;05;42;19 - 00;06;04;27
Derek
Like we see that with artists premiums for early works all the time, or it's because these were hand-drawn versus using some of these new tools that were incorporated. I think it'll be a little trickier maybe to kind of, pull out the reason why. But I do think that, like the markets will, will maybe price or reprice things then in ways that they think are constructive and useful.
00;06;04;27 - 00;06;31;06
Derek
It may be subtle, like Grant's best work may still be yet to come, at which point it won't matter that he's using some of these new tools to create work. It just matters that the work is great and excellent. And as we draw the line back, we can kind of chart through history how he engaged with blockchains and crypto and his neo precision of style and AI and other tools yet to be determined tools to kind of like make impact as an artist.
00;06;31;08 - 00;06;57;04
Chris
What's interesting about this draw is it's very much in his style. You know, he he isn't straying from his visual ID, his brand. You know what we know about Grant? And I think the way he went about doing it right, like it worked well with AI for me, like one of these things about AI is how does it place us in liminal spaces?
00;06;57;06 - 00;07;16;20
Chris
Like how do we get into zones between zones and get unsettled by a feeling of we shouldn't be here right now? And a lot of like the subject matter and the topics in this drop, you know, just thinking, like to stand up, he's there. The, the empty grocery store at night. Right. Like it puts you in that moment.
00;07;16;20 - 00;07;36;12
Chris
And so I don't feel like we moved away from anything Grant was doing. And I actually feel like, you know, he he made very good use of this as a tool. And so maybe that's part of why, you know, this auction settled where it didn't surprise people to the upside is there wasn't that big of a jarring shift.
00;07;36;12 - 00;08;04;09
Chris
It was kind of hard to esthetically differentiate this work from his prior work now. Yeah. What does that mean? Really unsure. You know, my my gut would say if he were to go, I only from now now on forward that yes, those earlier pieces you know would carry a premium. Yeah. Because of the work that went into them, the construction and because they served as the basis for what he went on to do.
00;08;04;09 - 00;08;22;19
Chris
I imagine he's not going to completely, you know, abandon his old practice or, you know, even that he would continue to do I work. But I do think he did a good job of, you know, delivering on it without really, I don't know, jarring people, around it.
00;08;22;22 - 00;09;05;04
VonMises
I wanted to add something while we're on this topic. I know all of us here share a love of generative art, and I think that I can make a lot of impacts in the generative art space, allowing people who wouldn't normally be able to code use AI to do their generative art coding. And the question is, does the same thing happen in generative art where you have this era from 2020, late 2020 to, let's say, the end of 2024, where, you know, the art was hand-coded and in certain cases, you know, the person, the actual artist did all the code and versus potentially AI doing the coding going forward or having even being unsure whether
00;09;05;04 - 00;09;24;10
VonMises
it's an AI or an actual person doing the coding. And will the market then start to again, you know, view this pre 2025 or pre mid 2024 period as like the golden era for art in this space because it didn't you know it wasn't using AI just kind of throwing that out there as well.
00;09;24;12 - 00;09;29;04
Aaron
Well this was your thesis Chris. Right. The golden era of NFTs. I feel like you may have some thoughts around this.
00;09;29;06 - 00;09;49;24
Chris
Yeah. I mean, I felt, you know, like the end of 22 that we were kind of closing a book. And at the time it wasn't about AI, although it was certainly sort of floating around in my head. It was really around, kind of the proliferation of work coming on market and a number of people entering into this space.
00;09;49;24 - 00;10;12;23
Chris
It's sort of, you know, went from a niche thing into a avenue and an outlet for everyone looking to get in on NFTs. And I think the glut we saw of work that came after that did make that earlier stuff special, because, you know, there was a lot of discovery in that process. You know, both on the artist side and on the collector side.
00;10;12;23 - 00;10;40;13
Chris
We showed up every day not really knowing what we were going to encounter. And then it was fun to encounter it. And then, you know, from like 23 on, I felt like we started getting into this just drumbeat of like telegraphed formulaic, you know, drops both from like a distribution side, but also on the artist side. I mean, I got to say like, I really feel like PJ five as a medium is, is very stagnant right now.
00;10;40;13 - 00;11;19;28
Chris
And you know, I'm sure there's like plenty of stuff going on out there that's wildly interesting. But like by and large, the bulk of it, you know, it was kind of settled into, predictable outputs and, you know, like, this isn't new news. Like, I'm not really excited about gender of art at the moment. And so, you know, if I can help get us past, you know, that sort of stagnation point, be it, you know, starting to code shaders and move past page five or, you know, using MCP to get these artists into, programs and systems that would normally take them months to learn and just kind of like open up and unblock, you
00;11;19;28 - 00;11;52;14
Chris
know, this sort of like, I don't know, a geometric math rock and, you know, recreating formalism with code era that, you know, I kind of feel like it's run its course. I'm all for it, you know, regardless of what it does for prices. But I do think that earlier set of stuff is going to hold up because there's a limited amount of it because of, you know, how it was generated, you know, through this like RNG conversation with, with the blockchain, the hash to create the output and all that fun stuff.
00;11;52;14 - 00;11;55;05
Chris
I do think that that holds up.
00;11;55;08 - 00;12;22;13
Aaron
Yeah, I agree with that. I think and it's a great question. Just what is I do for generative or but I, I do think maybe like I have a hard time picturing by the end of next year, these systems not being the best programmers on the planet. So you'd imagine that a skilled person that wants to generate you know, some P5, JS or three.js or possibly even some other new novel system that we can think about at this point, it doesn't get generated.
00;12;22;13 - 00;12;49;22
Aaron
So you can create more visually compelling art from that. I just feel like the direction or the direction programing is going is that these will be the best programmers and probably will be able to build easier to use, more interesting, more dynamic, more deep, systems in order to generate visual, visual, video. You name the medium right? So I do think that that a future generation of generative artists will start using these AI tools.
00;12;49;22 - 00;13;07;27
Aaron
I think that's probably why. And it's fun to watch. Like Bordeaux. Putting aside whether we like the outputs at this point, explore in that area, I think like thematically it's it's in the right direction. I mean, my $0.02 on this one, but on the AI stuff, like I still struggle with the AI outputs, still like, I don't know, there's, there's like a tenseness to it.
00;13;07;27 - 00;13;34;01
Aaron
It like doesn't have that depth that I feel like some of the human generated stuff has, like, honestly, Chris, like, I know you've been playing around with like these different like, music outputs. I feel like maybe that's crossing a chasm, like where there's like a little bit of, like, emotion or like, I guess it's like feigned emotion in some of this, but it feels that way, at least on some of the photographs, and it just doesn't feel like it's got like that, that depth that you need to, like, really resonate with, with folks.
00;13;34;03 - 00;13;59;29
Chris
I don't think it's far, but it you definitely feel when it can break through and when it can't like that, that frustration and that tension certainly exists as you cruise around these things and the amount of like petaflops just burnt and wasted searching for AI outputs that can get across. Or can he hit people in the feels? It has to be absolutely enormous.
00;14;00;03 - 00;14;33;19
Derek
I'll I'll make one comment on like these historical objects like let's call it like blockchain based fine art pre the age of AI. And then I'll also make a comment on just like what I think is working right now with AI, because I, I do agree somewhat with just like the one shotting prompts or like or even in some cases, you know, just like there is a, there is a sheen or even a glaze that I think around, around image, one that I think is, you know, without post editing is is not quite there yet, but, maybe I'll start with the latter, then go back to the former.
00;14;33;19 - 00;14;59;20
Derek
So the stuff I think is working is like the stuff that I think Grant pulled from really well, which is using AI as a creative partner in the sketch process. Now, I think in this most recent work on fellowship, it was about kind of like reconsidering, you know, training. You know, training a model or working through image gen in a way that kind of like replaced his sketch process or at least enhanced the sketching process.
00;14;59;20 - 00;15;21;14
Derek
And then from there, you know, being able to kind of do his typical digital hand-drawn process on like on creating like these artifacts in these objects, but rethinking kind of that final step, using AI as kind of this creative partner that he could bounce ideas against and rethink color, ingredient and light and scale. So I think, you know, and that showed up in the work.
00;15;21;14 - 00;15;47;05
Derek
I think that's why at the end of the work, it looks like a grant, collection, and not like, AI generated image image collection. So I think that's working. I think the parallel there for maybe creative coder coders is like using, you know, cursor or some of like these, these coding AI tools in the creative process around rethinking new algorithms, but not necessarily on one shotting a brilliant on chain generative art project.
00;15;47;08 - 00;16;19;10
Derek
A I just don't think that that's interesting. I don't think that's creatively cool. Or even if you could, you know, choose some like, really interesting technical, feats or effects, like, I just, I think the market will sniff that out and like that will not be interesting to collect against. But I do think for creative coders who are now starting to make new work, using these tools to maybe think differently about how you would assemble a final algorithm, P5 or, and to put on chain, and the process by which you can kind of explore a new surface area, outside of just like plain geometry.
00;16;19;12 - 00;16;40;01
Derek
So I think there is, there is, there's a lot of meat there that I think, you know, artists are now trying to unpack. And I'm like excited to kind of see these experiments play themselves out. And I think Grant is a perfect example of that. I think, to Chris's point, looking backwards in this, like, like let's call it like pre AI on chain art or on chain fine art, man.
00;16;40;01 - 00;17;03;22
Derek
I'm just like very bullish on this category. And I think for, for a few reasons, like I think number one, you know, I wrote about this in my last essay, but like I would say the maybe the biggest victim of, of kind of like, productivity associated with foundational models is, is labor. And I think capital gets a big W here and capital, you know, capital can be the infrastructure to support new types of intelligence.
00;17;03;22 - 00;17;31;07
Derek
It can literally mean money and money like objects. It means to me it means like, you know, fine art and real estate and other like wealth preserving store value objects and as I look back on Shane, you know, in the in the world pre AI or pre kind of like the proliferation of AI and I see all of like these, these earliest experiments, this earliest tempering of these blockchains as a creative tool with like really great algorithmic art or creative works.
00;17;31;10 - 00;17;49;05
Derek
I'm just like man that targeted to pull from Chris's language. There's just not that much of this stuff. Like they're still under, you know, 500 collections that have ever launched across art blocks, and bright moments and all of, like, all the things that exist on like, the Art blocks contract suite, there's not that much one of one art that I think is just like out there.
00;17;49;05 - 00;18;28;07
Derek
I mean, the, the pool of people that are continuing to collect and build and support these artists like, we're talking about very small numbers here. And, you know, I believe like a real movement exists at the intersection of digital and crypto around around art and it's hard for me to imagine a world where these, these cultural objects, which were very much a response over this five year period, or the let's call like 2018 to to 2025, that seven year period as a response to kind of like what was happening culturally around digital and crypto and social networks and networking that these things without and the ones that don't have external dependencies, that are purely just
00;18;28;07 - 00;18;49;27
Derek
objects that exist on chain, these things just won't carry a massive premium over the next few decades. Like, I just find that very hard to believe. So I would say I'm bullish on both. I'm bullish on using AI as a creative partner to make new works and interesting directions that we may not understand yet. And I'm also bullish on these cultural objects, these art objects that have existed over the last seven years.
00;18;50;04 - 00;19;06;18
Derek
Pre I, you know, endowing, like a premium to, to these things as a, as a manner to store value in a, in a, in a way that I think preserves wealth, in the future. So anyway, I'm, I'm rambling here about curiosity or what you guys maybe think on either of those points.
00;19;06;20 - 00;19;27;26
Chris
I wonder if there is a dividing line for all of these categories. You know, as you're saying, that I was just thinking about the feast days and, you know, wondering, did the door close, you know, around moon birds, you know, did the door close on, you know, art blocks? You know, I'm not even sure where you would pick that moment in time.
00;19;27;26 - 00;19;50;24
Chris
You know, some somewhere plus or minus six months of cargo. You know, where where does one say, hey, these early things mattered up until a point, and then after that point, you know, it, it lost a novelty, or there was enough stink around it or there was enough follow ons. You know that the data diluted what was special about what came before.
00;19;50;26 - 00;20;08;25
Aaron
I don't think it was like, anything with the platforms. I think it's just the nature of tech. I saw somebody even criticize, eith like and part of the part of the challenge is eat now has to even just blockchain now needs to compete with is, very bright, very shiny, very alluring developments that we see in AI.
00;20;08;25 - 00;20;40;13
Aaron
Chris. Right. Like if art and media really reflects the time and that's what makes it special, like the era that you're in, you know, is this really does this feel like a blockchain era right now? I think the answer is no, right? It feels like an AI era. The artists that that use these systems as their tools, like I like I think you eloquently said, Derek, I feel like they are getting attention because people can see that they are commenting, criticizing, documenting the era that we're living in.
00;20;40;20 - 00;21;01;08
Aaron
And so I feel like on the art black side or the on chain creators, they need to push to, to kind of make sure that they are serving that role that artists have historically, served right by pushing culture forward. And maybe that means changing the mediums a bit. Maybe it means changing the approaches a bit. I'm not 100% sure.
00;21;01;10 - 00;21;22;21
Aaron
It feels like the window's always going to be open. If the right media and creative works are getting produced. That's why, at least for me, I've been more interested in, like, more dynamic generative art. Right? Less like static, like we saw at the beginning of the art blocks movement and much more into dynamic pieces. I think that's why some folks, really the AI works, do resonate for them.
00;21;22;23 - 00;21;29;23
Aaron
I still have a kind of a mixed relationship with some of those works, but maybe that's part of the puzzle. Chris.
00;21;29;25 - 00;21;51;04
Chris
It's a good point. You know, I was I was just thinking about like, ordinals and runes, as you were saying that, like, you know, if I really was this eclipse over, you know, blockchain based digital objects, right? Ordinals and runes were late to the party and that they were is like, I was starting to really cast a shadow over this whole thing.
00;21;51;10 - 00;22;03;15
Chris
Now all these things are super complicated, and there's a gazillion influences and inputs that go into why something works and why something doesn't. But, you know, it is interesting to think of and in relation to your comment.
00;22;03;17 - 00;22;20;06
VonMises
Circling back on what we've been talking about, like, I mean, I definitely think there's going to be a delineation between the pre AI NFT world and the post AI NFT world. I mean, it's kind of like what Derek was saying. Yes, I think artists will use this as a tool to enhance art. And I do like AI art as a category.
00;22;20;06 - 00;22;46;18
VonMises
I think it's kind of interesting, but like, I don't know how I, I'm not really sure how I really feel about Grant migrating and maybe this isn't a permanent thing, but at least for this drop, you know, migrating to an AI generated model effectively. For me, I do feel like it, I don't want to say cheapens the work, but, you know, once you train the model, creating the outputs doesn't seem that hard.
00;22;46;18 - 00;23;08;05
VonMises
And I don't know, I, I like like I said, kind of before we started recording, we talked a little bit about this obviously. And should ex copy do something like this Codex copy train a model on his art and then tune it and then put out, you know, 25 one of ones and with that then cheapen his art or would it devalue his art or would people feel differently about it?
00;23;08;05 - 00;23;20;07
VonMises
So I don't know. I mean, I do I agree with Derek that pre I golden era assets to me will be the best store of value. But you know a lot a lot can happen.
00;23;20;10 - 00;23;38;01
Chris
Yeah. There's there's something going on there where like once an artist gives their consent to engage with the machine, the machine is capable of infinite outputs. And that's the line that, like, I get it as a collector or you're, you know, you get a chill down your spine for sure.
00;23;38;04 - 00;23;40;12
Aaron
Hey, can I ask a spicy question then?
00;23;40;15 - 00;23;40;27
VonMises
Of course.
00;23;41;04 - 00;23;45;14
Aaron
All right. Would you rather hold eath or NFTs at this point?
00;23;45;17 - 00;24;23;20
VonMises
Well, it's funny because, you know, I date this with, some of my Providence co-hosts on occasion. And for a long time, it was ever, ever. The general consensus was, you know, well, I might like crypto punks, but, you know, I'd rather just hold eath. And now the conversation is definitely starting to change a little bit. Having had this conversation as far back as the late, late 2020, where people were like, oh, punks are going to underperform if eath goes up a lot, and it turns out that punks went up a lot and it went up a lot, you know, for a variety of reasons, obviously it's not quite the same situation right now, but
00;24;23;22 - 00;24;46;25
VonMises
I'm definitely hearing more people for the first time saying, well, you know, maybe I should just hold NFTs instead of eath. Or maybe I do feel more comfortable holding Cryptopunks over ETH. So you're definitely starting to see that that change for me personally, like I've always held more in NFTs than I held at ease. And so I'm comfortable with the trade, but I'm trying to be a little bit more balanced now.
00;24;46;25 - 00;25;05;20
VonMises
I think with ETH at 1800, I'm a little more inclined to be willing to hold a little bit more ETH that I might usually hold, but I still like holding up NFTs as an eath at a minimum, as an ETH proxy, and in a lot of cases potentially has liberties. But what do you think, Aaron?
00;25;05;22 - 00;25;37;10
Aaron
I think it's a good question. You know, I think right now with it's kind of figuring out how it's going to kind of capture value across its sprawling ecosystem. I think there's a reasonably good argument that NFTs are better stores of value than ETH the asset is right now. That being said, I think it's like the only, asset that actually can consistently, because of DeFi and its more mature ecosystem, provide the yield across all its different, you know, tentacles.
00;25;37;13 - 00;25;56;05
Aaron
And I think in the long run that that's going to be very, very attractive. To folks. I was just talking to somebody who does this right. They try to build like yielding assets. And they they were noting to me that in different ways they're able to generate yield on Bitcoin in different in different ways. They're able to generate yield on Solana.
00;25;56;07 - 00;26;16;25
Aaron
But really, the ETH ecosystem is the best place to generate a significant amount of, you know, depressed yield at this point. And it was the first time I thought, oh, wow, like ETH really is going to win in the long run. Like if, if you can't generate consistently like, like yield across these other ecosystems, like they're just not going to win in the long run.
00;26;16;27 - 00;26;33;12
Aaron
So maybe you've got repriced for a variety of reasons. But you know, the the joy of compounding means that eath will probably win. And there were one in the long run. If it's able to consistently generate a return for for holders because of all of its, of its different fun things that it can it can do.
00;26;33;14 - 00;26;54;02
VonMises
By the way, that's a slightly different question. If you say, would you rather hold ether or NFTs and you don't factor in, you know, staking yields or yields that can be generated using ETH that you really can't generate with NFTs or becomes at least more challenge to NFT like over a longer, longer term time horizon that that does change the change the question quite a bit.
00;26;54;02 - 00;27;17;12
VonMises
So I guess, like someone said, do I want to hold the Cryptopunks for ten years or ETH for ten years? I don't know, man, that would be. That's a tough one, because obviously if you can take the eath and earn 3% at a minimum and compounding, you know, your break even becomes like 50% on the crypto punk just to just, I mean, just just to compensate for the yield that's being thrown off.
00;27;17;12 - 00;27;31;02
VonMises
So that's, you know, it changes a little bit. But I mean, I'm, I hold a lot of crypto punk still. I like crypto punk quite a bit. I definitely have way more money in Cryptopunks than I have any. So like I think that should answer the question.
00;27;31;04 - 00;27;40;17
Chris
There's a very small subset of NFTs where I'd be even comfortable having this conversation around, and once you get past that, it's eath all day for me.
00;27;40;19 - 00;27;49;26
VonMises
Well, let's talk about let's talk about the NFT. Let's talk about which NFT is that, because, I mean, I agree with you. There's a very small subset of NFTs that we could even have this conversation about. So why don't we try to.
00;27;50;00 - 00;27;50;14
Chris
Yeah, I think.
00;27;50;14 - 00;28;07;29
Aaron
It's I mean, that's what gets me excited about this, this era. I mean, I know a lot of people have found it painful, but it really is kind of telling to kind of see which sets have held up well where there's still interest, where there's growing interest, like, I don't know, I feel like this is just kind of like the, the, the process of markets.
00;28;07;29 - 00;28;29;17
Aaron
Right. Like the weighing machine has been, has been weighing, you know, the stuff that actually held up really well over the past two quarters, three quarters I imagine will probably outperform and also just continue, which is what I care the most about, you know, just capture more and more attention from folks in the long run. But, I mean, I mean, punks have looked pretty good.
00;28;29;21 - 00;28;32;04
Aaron
I mean, it seems pretty healthy, like across the board.
00;28;32;07 - 00;28;52;17
Chris
The punks. You look larva labs x coffee people. Right? Yeah. That's that's an easy three. Once you step past that, that's where it starts getting interesting I agree. I mean, to me, like squiggles is a great example and I realize I'm playing with rainbow colored fire because of, who's on this call. Derrick.
00;28;52;19 - 00;28;57;02
Derek
I'm not. I'm just I'm, I'm I'm just waiting to hear what you're about to say, Chris. That's all I.
00;28;57;05 - 00;29;05;26
Aaron
Know. The one thing you can't do with punks, Chris, is turn that into rainbow colored products and that sort of dude.
00;29;05;28 - 00;29;07;25
VonMises
And punks don't move. Punks don't move.
00;29;07;25 - 00;29;10;28
Aaron
Either. They don't. They don't squiggle.
00;29;11;18 - 00;29;43;24
Chris
Yeah. I mean the squiggle a 10,000 said size is big. And I think that's the part that's tricky for me is I would assault the gen art community. I would have thought the square holder base maybe was a little deeper, had a little more wherewithal than it actually did. And, you know, some of this to me is this squiggle served many different purposes, you know, like it was a in and of itself, a janitor rainbow.
00;29;43;27 - 00;30;19;03
Chris
But then, you know, it doubled as the brand and visual ID of art blocks. And it became a way of associating that you're within the art community. And but then, you know, this extended bear market, it starts to show, you know, who can hang and who can't. And 10,000 units size for something that, you know, maybe came on later than market than punks and has less individual distinction, kind of gets it really gets right on that line of how far, far out can you extend and how big can these things get?
00;30;19;03 - 00;30;38;26
Chris
Because you know, Brant yesterday showed us there is 20 people willing to pay up. We've always kind of known there's, you know, like between 20 and 50 people out there who will show up, you know, no matter what the conditions are. And then it gets really, really fuzzy between, you know, 50 people and 5000.
00;30;39;02 - 00;31;03;15
VonMises
I got to say something on this, though, like, I agree with what you're saying in regards to it being 10,000, but it's also like it's literally the drop by the person that created the platform that literally changed the model for what Gen art is all about. And I think that I've always said that squiggles is, you know, part art, part of Bet on Eric, part about on our blocks.
00;31;03;15 - 00;31;22;10
VonMises
And like, you know, when squiggles were really rocking and $50,000 for and, you know, 16 eath or whatever it was at the time the platform was kicking, but Eric was front and center all over the place. And, you know, people were just totally going crazy for it all. And, you know, now you're seeing that trend play it back in a little bit in reverse.
00;31;22;10 - 00;31;37;10
VonMises
But overall, I mean, if you have any faith in gen art, then like owning a squiggle is like, you know, required. In my opinion, you can't. I think it would be hard to say that you're a fan of Gen art and not at least inspired on the squiggle, right?
00;31;37;13 - 00;31;57;09
Derek
I'll let a couple of notes. I agree with von and I like the discourse here, Chris. So like, let's shatter it. I would say the first thing I'll say is like, the data is actually pretty clear that, the at least a correlation in both directions between cryptopunks and squiggle is, is, I mean, the there's a there's a bands there and it's typically about 10% of its value.
00;31;57;12 - 00;32;18;14
Derek
I mean, even even right now it's holding that, you know, that, that that one tenth mark pretty clearly punks or something like 44 Ethan Square, those are like 4.33 or 4.4 or something like this. I mean, you look back like at the last few years and these things are trading pretty closely within this band, of like 10% of punks value for pretty much its entire history.
00;32;18;14 - 00;32;54;07
Derek
I think that, you know, it's it's it may be when when, you know, the marginal buyers and, and marginal sellers are kind of like attention is elsewhere. I just like to see like what's going on with the band and like the band is the band is tight. The band is close. And that's the first thing I'll say just from like a pure finance, economics just perspective, I would say like to turn to advance point, you know, like in, in my view, there's really just like two artists that set in motion ideas that, spawned, let's call it, just like Matt, ideas that served as like, really like platforms for ideation.
00;32;54;07 - 00;33;18;26
Derek
And it was using Cryptopunks as a, as a, you know, an art experiment to kind of like store as much of the art or like, like, you know, use procedural generation off chain and bring it on chain and use Ethereum as kind of like a, you know, a format for, for storing kind of art in that way. And I think this is, you know, in many ways, like Cryptopunks may not have been the first, but it was definitely like a flawless execution on that idea.
00;33;19;08 - 00;33;45;14
Derek
And it came with the built in marketplace. And, you know, I consider the art to just be, you know, all of the things that encompassed the magic that was like the Cryptopunks 10,000 piece collection. The second was Crummy Squiggle, which was like this, you know, a system, really, it was like an innovation in how you could, you know, use a Ethereum as a mechanism for creating new type of art and like leaning on Ethereum entropy.
00;33;45;14 - 00;34;08;25
Derek
And this idea of like the seed parent of the transaction hash and the on chain algorithm to to not just use verifiable randomness to create a new piece of art, which that idea was replicated across like PHP projects after. But like all all off chain that but the but the concept was so good that it was just like simulated in so many different ways with bored apes and with the PHP mania and all of these things.
00;34;09;04 - 00;34;30;11
Derek
But then also this other like technical beast of like just pure the node dependencies of storing as much of the art as possible on chain using this algorithmic, system that Snover had devised. It's just like to me, the the technical accomplishments that Eric did didn't just serve our blocks, it served what ended up setting the stage for like, the NFT mania.
00;34;30;13 - 00;34;34;27
Derek
And I can, you know, like as I tried to unpack this a little bit before, but why.
00;34;34;27 - 00;34;37;19
Aaron
Are we so defensive about squiggles? Derek? Squiggles. No.
00;34;37;19 - 00;34;39;06
Derek
No defense. No no.
00;34;39;08 - 00;34;43;10
Aaron
We don't think they're I mean like all this stuff. It's a category, right? Like there's a.
00;34;43;15 - 00;34;44;26
VonMises
There's not be a defense of those. I don't.
00;34;44;26 - 00;34;45;21
Derek
I don't think anyone.
00;34;45;28 - 00;34;48;04
Aaron
Feels some defensiveness around this squiggle.
00;34;48;06 - 00;34;49;15
VonMises
Like he's being defensive at all.
00;34;49;15 - 00;34;51;12
Aaron
He's proud of the squiggle.
00;34;51;15 - 00;35;08;18
Derek
Yeah. No, no defense whatsoever. This is purely you know, I've thought a lot about this this project. And I would say like the museum, the museum kind of like acknowledgment both the on chain community and the off chain community is kind of a veil meant to kind of like what the pioneering concepts were. They're not really understood in the visual asset.
00;35;08;22 - 00;35;32;18
Derek
It's really it extends pasta. And I think with time and as this thing bakes, it will become clearer. So anyway, I'm, I think I'm, I'm just more just acknowledging like, hey, there's there's something here that I think maybe not intuitive in a time where like NFTs have lost some of their sheen, but we'll kind of like circle back as, as we, we see the space evolve and mature as time goes on.
00;35;32;21 - 00;35;33;20
Aaron
Yeah, I agree.
00;35;33;22 - 00;35;58;20
Chris
Since I'm representing the devil here and advocate on the show, there's Eric, the artist, and then there's Eric the product guy. Right. And I realize this practice is really one and the same. And and you know that that's the same. Eric. But Eric the artist. Yes, Derek, like everything you say stands true and holds up. Eric the product guy, right, is in his West Elm era.
00;35;58;20 - 00;36;27;16
Chris
His bed bath and Beyond. Eric. And this is something that's always been true of him, right? Like he always is viewed blockchain as a means of being a digital jukebox that you put a token in and out comes an item. And, you know, like generative goods is an instance of this. And so when you say, look, the squiggle is a representation of art blocks, the platform that is true and art blocks the platform right now is not the same art blocks.
00;36;27;16 - 00;36;56;23
Chris
It was at a time when people who wanted token traffic, exposure to art blocks did it through purchasing a squiggle. Now to your point, that ratio is still intact and so, you know, maybe I'm I'm making hay out of nothing here, but like, you know, there's a little more going on around the squiggle itself, I think, than simply like standing up and touting what we know or his accomplishments for on the the art and innovation side of things.
00;36;56;25 - 00;37;16;15
VonMises
I mean, one thing I would say is you can't buy, you can't. I mean, I think the squiggle as a proxy for generative art and art blocks, like kind of like what you just said still holds true. It's a bet on a lot of levels. I don't know. I mean, I think that like, it's for anyone who a baseball card collector, I mean, it's the circles or the rookie card of generative art.
00;37;16;16 - 00;37;38;24
VonMises
Like it? This it's it's where it all started. And with the nice thing about squiggles is that it does make acknowledgments to cryptopunks, and it does make acknowledgments to autographs. And by being all on chain and like Eric, took a lot of things into consideration that you wouldn't have done potentially, if you just thought this was a one off thing like that a lot to future it.
00;37;38;24 - 00;37;53;00
VonMises
So I don't know. I mean, I'm pretty bullish on Squiggles and Eric and still have a lot of faith in the gen art market. So, you know, I'm I mean, I think I still I own more than 100 still. So I mean I'm pretty pretty committed.
00;37;53;02 - 00;38;03;26
Aaron
Yeah I like that actually framing. But I never thought about it like as a rookie card. I mean, I guess you could almost feel like copy being like a rookie card for, for a glitch, like let's art. Yeah.
00;38;04;03 - 00;38;26;21
VonMises
And Cryptopunks are the I mean, when we got we got Mark Cuban in late 2020. Like I don't remember who it was in the discord, you know, bought like what something at some auction to get Mark Cuban to say something. And we got him doing this poem about Cryptopunks. And you literally said the rookie cards of NFTs like Cryptopunks are the rookie cards of NFTs, and squiggles are the rookie cards of generative art, you know?
00;38;26;21 - 00;38;38;13
VonMises
So it's like where it all started, in my opinion. So I think that there's a lot of, yeah, absurd optionality in them that might not be apparent by just looking at it as a squiggly line rainbow.
00;38;38;16 - 00;38;43;01
Aaron
Yeah. And I guess that would be like the lost Robbie would be the rookie card of the AI, right?
00;38;43;07 - 00;38;45;12
VonMises
Yeah, yeah, I think that's what it gets on.
00;38;45;12 - 00;38;47;19
Chris
I was born, it was born a ham.
00;38;47;22 - 00;38;51;28
Aaron
It was born, weird looking chicken.
00;38;52;00 - 00;39;01;21
Chris
Yeah, yeah. All right. So squiggles lost ravines that they make the cut. Like, sure, we can have serious conversations about these five things for us. Eat. What else you want to throw in that bucket?
00;39;01;24 - 00;39;04;02
Aaron
I mean, x x copy definitely made the cut.
00;39;04;04 - 00;39;09;28
Chris
Yeah, yeah, he was in the first batch. Lava people act squiggles I hams.
00;39;10;01 - 00;39;27;12
VonMises
And I think Tyler Hobbs and his stuff. I mean, if you're going to make a play on generative art, I mean, I think you've got to throw in squiggles for denzel's ringers. I mean, I do I mean, it's I understand that the space is a little out of favor right now, but we know how things trend in and out of favor.
00;39;27;12 - 00;39;33;15
VonMises
Like, I like betting on those people for sure, even if they're out of favor right now. I like betting on them.
00;39;33;17 - 00;39;52;15
Derek
Yeah, I'll add one, one comment to to that point on and some of the framing that you guys are circling around here, I think Aaron said at the beginning of this conversation that like, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think it was something like, you know, you're the stuff you're most excited around right now from a crypto, our perspective are like is like interactive and dynamic art.
00;39;52;15 - 00;39;54;23
Derek
Is that was that fair to say? Aaron.
00;39;54;25 - 00;40;14;16
Aaron
Yeah, I just like if I close my eyes and think, okay, what's going to represent the, the future? It just it feels like it has to be increasingly dynamic. I think you're seeing early breakouts for, you know, NFT or NFT adjacent folks like Rafique, you know, getting that attention from traditional collectors, which I don't think should drive decision making.
00;40;14;16 - 00;40;34;26
Aaron
But I think it's an important data point and they're moving more towards dynamic. I also think it just, you know, if you think about it in a Chris, you're so good at thinking about things from a product perspective. Like that actually is the product that NFT has a differentiator or NFTs have a differentiating factor, right? Like they they work really well for more dynamic works, right?
00;40;34;29 - 00;40;54;12
Aaron
Like they provide the provenance, they provide the ability to kind of capture a very, very important media category. The screens are getting cheaper, right? They can scale up like to huge, huge sizes, which I think is something that the space has not explored enough. Like why do we not have always seen some folks like play around with this?
00;40;54;12 - 00;41;16;01
Aaron
But why? Why is that not the norm where we're just showing these digital works and like incredibly large dramatic public displays? I just feel like all that stuff is kind of wrapped up around that. Then the the dynamic NFT is and I and I think also on the generative art side, we've kind of explored that space. It's a bit like music, right?
00;41;16;01 - 00;41;39;01
Aaron
Like a sound and or a group of bands creators, they kind of explore a musical style, and then you need to kind of think about what's the next area to explore. And I feel like dynamic generative art is also a good place to kind of look there. So I was going to throw into the hopper, like I actually think like Matt Cain's work really could grow in importance over time.
00;41;39;03 - 00;41;51;27
Aaron
It's in part why I like, you know, came as interests were quite a bit. I think he's moving in that direction. I just think he'll he'll kind of fit in neat, nicely and neatly in the the long story arc of all this, of all this stuff.
00;41;52;00 - 00;42;34;22
Derek
So, so I completely agree. Like, I am very, very excited about this category of, of using blockchains in a way to, to to have Rwby be on chain and far more expressive and far more dynamic and far more interactive and simulate like, you know, running like computer programs, in partnership with, like, with, in partnership with the blockchain and, and I guess the point that I was trying to make is like, unlike Los Ravis or Cryptopunks or autobus or some of these things, the first project to to like, explain that vision to basically put an on chain computer program, an algorithm on a blockchain and be able to to have a system work
00;42;34;22 - 00;42;58;28
Derek
together to create an output that is resolution agnostic to your point, that is immutable and permanent and dynamic and interactive. Was this idea of like the chrome squiggle, which is a tinkering project, a computer program that Sno Fra had been playing with, you know, predating predating the launch of Otto glyphs using Ethereum entropy to be able to, like, run this program on demand procedurally.
00;42;59;00 - 00;43;27;24
Derek
And I guess my my view is like putting aside just like what it means for our blocks that project. The the point I'm making is we don't get a Kim as a North Cargo or a Tyler Hobbs Forenza or, you know, more interactive and dynamic piece pieces like that we're seeing today without somebody figuring that out and solving how to marry, you know, things that are a little bit more, you know, algorithmic and like, you know, code based in terms of the creation of new work with these blockchains without snow fro.
00;43;28;00 - 00;43;38;12
Derek
And that's on me is is genius. And that, to me is like his ability to have solved that set in motion. The events of us even having this conversation about being bullish, you know, interactive art on chain.
00;43;38;15 - 00;44;07;14
Chris
The devil would like to present terror arms and argue that as much as, you know, Snow Ferro did here, it was really about object instantiation and not around networking and interoperability. And that to me, program movable art has to be networked art. It has to have like interop capabilities. And I don't think, you know, we've seen it with Terraform.
00;44;07;15 - 00;44;35;26
Chris
Terraform has a certain density around it and has really yet to like, show itself and put itself through its paces around these things. And so it's understandable why like, you know, maybe that doesn't quite come through pixel Dex. I think, you know, by using the medium of the Dex as a medium of exchange for, you know, filling, filling space has done it, but it, you know, it has a very small collector size.
00;44;36;02 - 00;44;47;28
Chris
And so, you know, this sort of like light bulb moment, you know, that people had around plants, had around squiggles, hasn't really happened yet around programable art. Yeah. We keep waiting for it.
00;44;48;05 - 00;45;08;12
Aaron
Yeah. Actually, I was thinking the same thing while you were, talking about, squiggles. I think the answer is they're both going to fill that category. The one thing I do think that Terra Farms or Math Castles have that squiggles don't have is, is really where I think media's going. So let me just take like a slight, adjacent path.
00;45;08;12 - 00;45;33;19
Aaron
But, you know, we've been hosting this like, AI engineering meetup in, in New York. We had somebody come in and they produced 11 mobile apps, like end to end, complete mobile apps in a month. Right. And so I do think we're starting to see the beginning of trends of really media being not images, not video, you know, not dynamic images, but really like entire programs being the media artifact.
00;45;33;19 - 00;45;54;11
Aaron
And I think that both the squiggle and both like math castles were early examples of that too. And so I think that we're kind of viewing everything and like taking a couple steps up and zooming out, I think they're both going to be part of like, that canon, like early examples of kind of end to end computer programs that were that were media.
00;45;54;13 - 00;46;13;19
Aaron
I do think that the special part of math castles is that the complexity, the depth, the storytelling, the layers of it, I just think is pretty magical. And so I'm assuming that that people will begin to cherish and appreciate that more over time. But I definitely think that they they crossed or that step crossed the chasm to this time around.
00;46;13;22 - 00;46;15;29
Aaron
We think, is that a fair thesis?
00;46;16;01 - 00;46;44;05
Derek
Yeah, I definitely think it's a fair thesis. I mean, like all of this stuff builds on top of each other, right? So like, this is why I just like, think, you know, I like to draw a line back. It's like we don't get we don't with cryptopunks, you know, we needed to show that we could, you know, put actual, you know, JPEGs on the Ethereum blockchain and run all the computation, all the computation around generating the assets and the randomness and the probabilities and curating them and doing all that stuff off chain because it was too complex to try and figure out how to do it on Ethereum.
00;46;44;08 - 00;47;09;06
Derek
And then with Ortagus, it was like, okay, how much of the art can we store on chain knowing that we're sacrificing some of like our let's call it like creative upside, just to kind of like serve that job of just like getting fitting as much of this shit onto onto the onto the Ethereum blockchain. And then with, you know, Chrome squiggle and like the Roblox platform, it was okay, can we actually take a different set of constraints and actually run like early computer programs to create art on blockchain?
00;47;09;10 - 00;47;26;28
Derek
And we solved it and then with things like Terraform. So I was like, okay, let's go a little bit deeper and, you know, make things a little bit more interactive and dynamic and, and on chain and use some of kind of the lessons learned from these previous artists to kind of like build something in a new direction. And I think that will just continue to evolve in time, time and time again.
00;47;26;28 - 00;47;48;14
Derek
And, you know, we're all standing on the shoulders of the folks that came before us. And I guess the maybe the larger thought here is like, I do agree with you, and I think where we're going is far more interactive and far more on chain and far more expressive and programable and, and there being maybe more of a two way conversation between the, the viewer and the work itself.
00;47;48;17 - 00;47;57;08
Derek
I just it just feels like completely untapped and based on all of the great work that we're seeing over the last five years, that just feels like the direction things are headed.
00;47;57;10 - 00;48;11;19
Aaron
And to me, like, that's like, I just think important kind of barometers here of like, you got like all this stuff needs to fit into like, the arc of where society culture is going. I think that's just an important, important piece of it. And I hear you. You may have to pop.
00;48;11;22 - 00;48;12;13
VonMises
Yes.
00;48;12;13 - 00;48;23;03
Aaron
We wanted to thank you for your wisdom, insight, guidance and obviously all the things that you do for the NFT space. So thanks for coming on, Chris. I don't know if you wanted to add anything or. Derrick.
00;48;23;05 - 00;48;39;17
Chris
Look, Ryan's got one of the best eyes in the space is he was, a huge friend of Flamingo down when we were getting up to speed and building our collection out. Legend in the space also happens to, like, carry the name of a noted Austrian economist. So we should probably just throw him a softball question in passing.
00;48;39;17 - 00;48;45;24
Chris
And yeah, you know, ask if a global economic reordering really was in store for us and, and this.
00;48;45;26 - 00;48;47;13
Aaron
What do you think those tariffs fun.
00;48;47;15 - 00;49;12;06
VonMises
I mean I was pretty public about my thoughts on the tariffs. You know massive, massive massive mistake. You know wow. While attempting to bring down the trade deficit is notable. It's not really important or possible to run a surplus with everybody, you know, and pretty much daily for as it got worse and worse and worse, I would say, you know, need an off ramp.
00;49;12;06 - 00;49;32;08
VonMises
You got a you know, this is just this is done this is the worst fight. Now, I do think taking it to China a little bit, who I think is objectively a bad actor on the global stage, especially when it comes to trade, is a different story, you know, from suppressing their currency to dumping practices in various markets.
00;49;32;08 - 00;49;57;29
VonMises
I mean, they're genuinely a bad actor. I think that taking the fight to China is is probably worth having. But, you know, beyond that, you know, let's focus on the domestic economy. Let's focus on implementing policies that are good for Americans and not getting lost in the weeds on a trade war that didn't seem well thought out, didn't seem well implemented, and certainly seems to have, you know, cost them a fair bit of political capital.
00;49;57;29 - 00;50;18;01
VonMises
So, you know, big mistake. Thankfully, you know, cooler heads do seem to have prevailed. And the worst aspects of it are, are seem to be done. So that's good. But, you know, I'm I certainly hope this isn't this is a topic that they stay on in the future. But I want to thank all you guys for having me on.
00;50;18;04 - 00;50;29;07
VonMises
I appreciate the kind words. I'm a big fan of of of everybody on this call. We all shared and a great experience. And we're going to be friends for a long time. And I, I'm thankful for that.
00;50;29;10 - 00;50;32;24
Aaron
Amen. And it's just starting. It just started.
00;50;32;27 - 00;50;33;21
VonMises
I hope so.
00;50;33;24 - 00;51;00;29
Aaron
And welcome to Net Society everyone. This is a podcast where we explore everything going on on the internet from, crypto NFTs and to everything kind of in between. I'm one of the hosts, Erin, and I'm here with, Chris and Eric, and we have a special guest. I, von Mises, the one and only just, quick reminder that nothing we say here represents anything of the institutions that we may be a part of.
00;51;00;29 - 00;51;07;08
Aaron
They're all made in our individual capacity. Nothing can should be construed as investment advice in any way. And go squirrels.
00;51;07;14 - 00;51;09;09
Derek
Awesome. Awesome shot here.
00;51;09;11 - 00;51;16;06
Aaron
Yeah. Thanks. Van.
00;51;16;09 - 00;51;27;20
Aaron
For.