Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
The reason I wanted to talk about this topic, let's just stack there.
So we were recently home with our children
for extended period of time.
And our three-year-old, I will say, had moments of being very clingy to me
It also sometimes to you.
And I found myself like a visceral, like almost like a bristle reaction, just like get off
Me.
Like it's too much.
I'm overstimulated.
Stop clinging on me.
And also, I felt like her tantrums were just a little bit extra, which made sense.
We were out of routine.
All the reasons we'll talk about today
And you were all sick.
And we were all sick, so she was also not feeling good.
She kept reminding us that she wasn't feeling good.
And I think being the youngest of three
Sometimes she does have to be a little bit louder, a little bit more like vocally needy in order to get that attention that she wants.
And I also think that's part of why she's such a goofball, because she has to up the ante a little bit
in order to get attention sometimes, which is not a great thing, but it's just the reality of there's just a lot of people in the house.
Yep.
But I noticed about myself
that I really had to bring myself back to the basics of why are kids so clingy and how can I help her because I was getting just kind of caught up
in feeling frustrated and just wanting her to kind of get off me.
And so I thought if I'm feeling this way and this is my life's work of talking about children and what they need and
and how to support them, then I'm imagining a lot of other parents are feeling that way when their child is clingy.
And so this this episode, my vision for it really was
How can we just be reminded of the basics, like why are kids so clingy and think of some strategies to help us and to help the kids when they're like that?
Well
Let's just start with then why are kids so clingy sometimes?
The biggest question there's a let's just let's just dive right into it.
Well is it even a problem that you have to solve?
Clinginess?
Yes
I get it's uh reality of being a parent, but I just feel like over the holidays it's easy to figure out what was wrong.
We're out of routine.
You and all three girls were sick.
So especially when the girls are sick, they end up being clingy.
That's just how they are.
They want to just be with someone safe.
I I kind of get it
I understand what they're doing.
So I feel like episode is over.
Like we figured it out.
Is it even a problem that we have to solve?
I think you are asking that.
from a very evolved perspective of understanding children, understanding their development.
Yeah, maybe that's it.
And understanding why cleaning has happened.
So great, you've already come to the solution that we're hoping to get people to.
But I also want you to think of it from a different perspective.
Let's say you don't have all this background information and you're just Scott, just a dad, you know, you don't have
any of this information.
And you're seeing your child and you're all home together as a family.
You're all just sitting around watching a movie or playing.
and you see yourself, you're go you go to the kitchen, you're going to make something, and your child's just like this little caboose and you're the train and they're just like following you everywhere, clinging, whining, crying.
And all you're seeing is that exact moment where you're like, our whole family's here.
You have everything you could ever want.
Why are you clinging and crying and hanging on to me?
Yeah.
I'll be there in 10 seconds.
Just wait
It's logical, right?
So I think you're viewing it, you're like, problem solved.
She's out of routine, she's tired, whatever, she's hungry, she was just sick.
That's a great perspective to have.
But I think the majority of people aren't looking bigger picture.
They're looking in that exact moment.
Being like, my child's safe, they have everything they need, we're all home together, so why in the world do they have to follow me around the house crying?
There's no reason it's not logical.
Because I think a lot of people still are approaching children from this unrealistic expectation that they should just be logical and understand that their life is great and there's no reason to be sad.
Yeah, right.
And I feel like the reason I can understand that is because I also, when we were all home together, was not feeling the best.
And so I feel like my capacity to be calm around the kids was not there in the same way it usually is.
So I was a little shorter with them.
And even I sometimes was slipping into that logical thinking mindset, being like, what else could you need?
You have every toy that you love to play with.
It's all right there.
Your whole family's here
We have nothing to do.
Why are you following me around crying wanting to be picked up?
Wanting to sit on your lap while you're on the toilet?
Yeah, literally.
Like, why do you need to be on my lap while I'm on the toilet?
Our youngest really likes to do that.
They all did
They all did.
And I think that the other problem that I was having is like I was comparing our youngest to her older siblings.
Being like, they're not doing this.
You're getting older.
You shouldn't have to do this anymore.
And I did really find there was a few times I had to be like
You're three.
I forget how little you are sometimes when you have an older sister who's almost nine.
I feel like we've discussed that a few times recently where you feel like we have
too high of expectations on our oldest versus the expectations we have on even our middle daughter who's three years younger.
Yeah.
And I have to constantly reframe that to you.
Mm-hmm.
Even that they're the different ages, right?
Were we the same with our five-year-old that we are with our almost nine-year-old.
Yeah.
Yeah.
At that age.
Yeah.
So I think like to your I love your like comment of Dundee, like
She's sorry, whatever.
But I think for a lot of people, including myself, over the last couple of weeks, it's important to bring it back to like getting curious.
So is it maybe more of a signal that we're trying to understand then rather than
A problem that we're trying to solve.
Yeah, it's like you're saying my book out loud.
The book talks a lot about fixing and how it's not always the answer that we actually need to fix our child.
Sometimes we just need to understand it and then that can help us approach our child.
So
Let's go straight back to your question.
Why are kids so clingy sometimes?
You already explained a few good things.
So kids are clingy because they're tired.
We definitely notice that in our kids when we've stayed up too late or they've been up too early.
Can we go even further though?
Oh let's What is clean as solving for the child?
Clingingy.
So like if they are being clingy with you, yeah, of course, because they're sick, but what's the underlying reason for that then?
Why is clinginess even something that exists in children at all?
That question is why I love you.
See the engineering mindset comes into first principles.
First principles.
I see clinginess for much more than just what's happening in that moment, right?
Like when your child's that little caboose following you around
When they are clingy, their body is in a state of alarm.
And there's many reasons why we'll talk about that.
That state of alarm is saying, I am not okay on my own right now.
I need to get close to someone who's gonna help me feel okay
And I feel frantic to get close to that person.
So I'm seeking connection with them.
I think that that is the underlying
theme.
And so whether that happens because they're tired or because they're hungry or because they're overstimulated, the clinginess is a call to say
I need you right now because my body is so alarmed or so frantic that I can't calm it down on my own.
And I really believe that we've kind of lost seeing that.
I lost seeing that when we were home with the kids
kids, right?
I was seeing it from my perspective as I'm overstimulated.
I can't have you clinging and whining and crying and pulling on my shirt.
I just can't handle it.
So I'm only viewing it from my perspective, not
her perspective, which is my body's so alarmed, I don't know what to do.
I need you.
You're my safe person to help me.
to figure this out, calm me down so that I can go play.
So I think if you really want the core reason is that, but then But is that the case though?
Like, I just feel like we're sitting on the couch.
You and the girls have been watching a movie because you're sick.
Um, whatever, in the kitchen cleaning up and doing whatever else.
Making you soup and all that when you're sick.
And you get up to get a glass of water.
Why would our toddler even be in a state of alarm at that point?
Because it's not like really anything's changed other than, hey, I'm gonna go get a glass of water
I think so because again, look at the bigger picture.
In that moment she has witnessed me being sick, let's say.
We all had influenza just
to share that beautiful visual with you all.
It was not beautiful.
Let's just say that much.
No, it was not.
We all had influenza.
This is why we were home.
Except for Scott, who took care of us, which was absolutely lovely.
Anyway, she saw me sick.
She notices she can tune into my mood that I'm not in a happy mood.
I'm not my normal self.
And that immediately is gonna put a small toddler into a state of alarm, right?
Because wait.
So they're seeing you.
She's feeding off my energy.
Yeah, okay.
Okay, like imagine I'm going to get a cup of water, I basically look like the Grim Reaper, like with a blanket over my head
stumbling to get a cup of water because I'm like can barely do it without coughing.
So it's not just me getting off the couch, right?
And I think that a very similar parallel is when you're in a bad mood as a parent, right?
So you're like, you're fine, everything's fine.
Well, everything's not fine.
The person I love most is in a really bad mood.
I can't as a
three-year-old understand if that's something I did, if you're in a bad mood because something else, but all I can feel in my body is that that means the whole mood in the house is off.
And if I follow you around and I stay close to you, maybe things will change, but I need to know that we're okay.
So I do think even simple interactions like that.
have to do with the relationship.
That makes sense.
I guess I didn't really think of it from that perspective where I mean you even talk about we as
the parents, the caregivers are the external brain for them.
So if they're seeing that we're not behaving normally how we would in everyday life, then that would kind of put them into a
A different state themselves.
Exactly.
And that the clinginess is is basically, are we okay?
Are you okay?
I need us to be okay.
in that situation.
So that's like your answer to the deeper question.
I think the deeper question is this like frantically seeking the relationship to make sure that you're okay or to make sure that they can get their needs met by you.
Right.
So then if you go
That's the deepest level.
Then you go the one step up, which is your child's going to be more clingy when they're hungry.
Okay, who's going to feed me, my caregiver?
So I'm going to be clingy to them.
Our three-year-old definitely gets more clingy when she's hungry.
It is like I've never seen hangry in the way I've seen it in her.
Yeah.
And probably
I've learned that about myself and you also.
So she comes by it honestly, but I feel like I don't.
You don't get hangry?
Most days I don't even eat until dinner.
I'm too busy.
Does that mean that True
Does that mean you don't get hangry?
I feel like you get home from work and it's like until you sit there and and eat.
I don't know.
That's why we we make sure we have food on the table.
Like, same, literally.
Even oh, I was on a vacation with my mom and brother and sister in law and has just in a bit of a bad mood at all through
they realized I hadn't eaten all day and they're like, K Jess, we're stopping here and you're eating something.
And I literally had this is Italy, had a bowl, delicious bowl of gluten-free pasta.
So good.
I can still like taste it.
And I was basically like dancing through the streets after.
And then I was like, why do I feel so much better?
Oh yeah, I had food.
Anyway
So hunger I think is actually one that we often don't notice, but it's okay to just give your child some food
Even if it's not like dinner time yet, sometimes they just need that to get through.
We've noticed that after school.
We typically give them a pretty big snack, which means they eat less dinner.
But otherwise they are super grouchy.
Right.
So I think sometimes too like you can have rules like, oh, we're not having food till dinner.
But your rule might actually be contributing to your child's like clinginess.
grumpiness, tantrums, whatever it is.
So sometimes you just have to like notice that and ask yourself, Kate, does this rule actually make sense for a three year old?
Maybe they do need a healthy, big after school snack like do cheese and veggies and hummus or whatever.
And then they have less at dinner, but now they're happier for the rest of the afternoon.
So hunger, tired.
So you will notice that your child's more clingy when they're tired.
Again, similar reason, right?
Their body is just all out of whack, they're feeling alarmed, they're feeling exhausted, and they want comfort.
Who's you?
You're gonna notice more clinginess when there's something off.
So for example
you're fighting with your partner, you're in a bad mood as a parent.
I notice like and it's so hard because the days where let's say when I was sick and I was in a bad mood because I was sick, the days when you're in the worst mood are the days when your child clings the most.
Yeah
And I hear that from parents all the time.
They're like, Jess, I'm in such a bad mood.
I'm having a hard time regulating myself.
So why do they have to hang on to my leg all day?
Like go play.
Well your child's doing that 'cause their whole world exists within relationship with you.
So if you're in a bad mood, it puts their whole world into like this uneasy state, right?
And in their own way they're trying to make things better
But all they know is to like cling and cry and whine and stay close to you.
Right.
So it's just that's important to note and I find that that helps me.
To be honest, I feel like that's gonna be a good reminder for me
Yeah.
Cause I mean, logically, that makes sense now that I understand this, but I don't think I've ever put that together.
The days where I'm the most grumpy or you are
They will tend to cling to you more and need more from you more as like they want to see a sign of, hey, we're we're okay and things are things are normal.
Right.
But then you interpret that as a parent of like, I can't deal with this today, guys.
Chill out.
That's a quote from me
Last week.
Yeah, I mean in that case it was we have a slightly different situation.
I mean we were off for the holidays, so then
I was just like, you go to bed, I'll take care of them and then and then they know they can't go into your bedroom and And that's where you need well like let's talk about this after, but that's where you do need each other and that village of support and that those other attachment figures to come in
to take over on those days where you just can't, right?
Okay, so let's talk about other reasons.
We've talked about hunger, being tired, seeking connection because
something's off in the home, which I think is a really big one.
I also think clinginess can be something that's happened for your child.
So I think if we go a little bit older even, like there's something they're scared about
Even with her three and a half year old.
We saw that.
She was scared to go back to school.
She was nervous.
Yep.
And the day before and that night, all night, she wanted me in her bed.
All of a sudden she was clingy.
And she was just kind of
being off like I don't know.
She's like making kitty cat noises and she normally would not acting in general like normal and you're like
What the heck is happening?
Like it's just a normal Sunday at home.
I don't, I don't get it.
And then when you get curious, you're like, oh, you're nervous to go back to school tomorrow.
It's been a few weeks since you've been to school.
That makes a lot of sense.
So sometimes they're scared and we're only seeing the clinginess, but if you really get curious there's something else going on underneath that.
Sometimes they want something and they don't know how to communicate that with you.
Like they want a toy or they want to go out with a friend or they they want something they maybe aren't
communicating it with you, but they're like trying to stay close to you, maybe hoping that you'll kind of figure it out in a way.
I feel like I've seen that maybe more so in our middle daughter.
She'll like want something that one of her other siblings has, but she won't necessarily want to say it.
She'll want me to understand it.
I feel like the youngest does that a lot too.
Yeah, actually the youngest does do that a lot.
I mean again
She was sick, so that she wasn't normal way she would act, but yeah, a lot of times she would have wanted something and would just point and grunt and not actually say anything.
Expecting us to understand and clinging to us and crying and again these are all signs of alarm.
Like your child's body is just not in its normal state where it's calm, it's regulated.
Your child's body is frantic.
Like and that's why they're staying close to you.
So I think all of these reasons really are just a call to tune in.
Like back to your question about fixing.
is the answer we must fix the whining by seeing this one script when they're clinging and whining.
No, it's to tune in and be like, Can I look at the bigger picture here?
Why is this happening?
And I think a lot of times when we can understand why,
our solutions just start to come to us, right?
So in the situation, let's say with our youngest being in this state of alarm with you being sick.
Mm-hmm.
How would you handle that differently then compared to how you did?
I don't think I handled it great.
That's just the honest.
I mean you were pretty ill.
Yeah, exactly.
And I have a lot of compassion for myself, but
I do want to be honest that I was a bit grumpy with the kids for probably a week and a half when I wasn't feeling that good.
It wasn't that long.
I felt that even when I felt better, and I think
This is the problem.
Like I felt better and then all of a sudden it was Christmas, right?
And I know the holidays are over, but this is true for any time of the year, right?
I felt better and then all of a sudden life picked straight back up
And I never had time to like recover, repair with the kids and our family after this like period of basically being in bed with influenza for five or six days.
So then I think even that, like, we never talked about what it was like when I was sick and am I better now?
And or am I gonna get that sick again?
How did you feel when mom was laying in bed for six days and couldn't talk to you and Right, but is a three-year-old gonna understand that stuff?
I think she would understand it more than you think.
Okay.
Let's talk about it tonight with her.
See if she can't do that.
We'll try that.
We'll try that tonight.
Because I do think that after and I mean we're picking on being sick a lot, which I know like
I asked uh the Nurture First followers and it was like, whatever, crazy percentage of people have been extremely ill, so I know that's relatable.
But you can kind of think of like any period of like upset or something's like disrupted the flow in your house.
Like I think about the times I was pregnant and morning sick.
Like that's another good example.
Or when we lost my grandmothers and we were grieving and we were sad.
Like anytime something big has happened in the house, the kids pick up on that and they all of a sudden start clinging and whining more.
I think we received
probably three or four emails recently alone, just on cleanliness in kids when they have a new sibling entering the family too.
Or that.
You have a new ba like oh my goodness.
I remember when we had our third, I was like, I can't deal
the baby's fine.
It's the older kids I can't deal with right now because they were so clingy and needed us so much.
And now looking back, I'm like, yeah, that was a huge transition for them.
And they saw me in these vulnerable states and they're like, is my mommy gonna be okay?
That's the question, right?
And so I think in hindsight
let's say with the illness, maybe you, being the healthy one, could have had a conversation with her and maybe you did, being like, Mommy's sick and she's gonna get better
I mean we hoped, but uh, you know, she's gonna get better.
She's okay, she loves you, like almost like a bridging of the separation.
You know, she's still in our house, but
I'm taking care of you and if you need anything, I'm here for you.
I've was talking to a friend recently, like we forget how much they're picking up on.
and how much questions or concerns they might have on what we're privately dealing with or what we're going through.
So having the conversation, I think our daughter's three and a half.
I think she actually would understand it more than we think she would.
I mean, again, that's great in ideal world, especially if she's healthy, but she also wasn't either, right?
So Yeah
And sometimes we're just gonna cling and cry more, and that's just what it is.
Okay, but this brings up actually a really good point, something that I outlined.
What about
the fact that typically the younger two cling on to you.
They're much less likely to cling on to me for anything.
Which I know kind of
burns you out extra.
I'm like go to your father.
Yeah, I mean you would.
And I think in general it's probably, let's just say realistically, it's usually mobs.
Moms that are
the ones that kids cling on to.
How should let's say the preferred parent respond and how should the other parent handle this?
I mean I don't maybe originally I felt a little bit rejected, but I kind of get it now, so I don't feel that same way, but I know that it's pretty common to feel kind of rejected.
It's like, hey, I'm here, I can I can help out, I can love you too, I can do get what you need, I can get your snacks, but
They only want mom to get their drink and their snack.
It's a big thing that comes up in therapy, actually.
Like in the work that I do with clients.
Yeah.
Because there's always I mean, yeah, like traditionally I would say more often it is mom and then dad is
the non-preferred parent.
So we'll just use that.
But that's not always the case.
I have had it where dad is the preferred parent and that was very, very difficult on the mom because she was like, all my friends are the preferred parent.
Like what's so wrong with me that they don't want me
But I like to reframe it as it's more of your little children can only really think about one thing at a time, right?
So their brain just kind of gets stuck.
And so they might just be more used to, let's say, me.
taking care of them in those moments because originally maybe you were working outside of the home more, I was home more, it just became kind of like who they were used to.
And it's not actually personal against you
It's just that their brain is stuck on only wanting mom.
And it's very hard for them to hold two thoughts at the same time.
Do you think we ever had that with our oldest though?
Because I was traveling the most when she was young, but I still felt like she was probably more
No.
When she was really little, she wanted mummy.
I was traveling a lot, so then maybe I didn't experience that quite as much.
But I experienced it on the flip side with her.
Or she wants you.
Because I think because the little two always want mummy, then the oldest has been like, okay, then I'll take dad.
I feel like it's been ever since we had our second that she definitely has preferred me
Yeah.
So anyway, but what I want parents to know is that that's just your brain being s that's just their brain being stuck.
It's not that they like hate this other parent
Yeah, right.
And so then we have to think about what gets kids' brains unstuck when they're like that.
Typically playfulness is a really great way.
So being kind of silly with them.
And the other thing is
You have to be the leader.
So your child doesn't get to call the shots on who takes care of them in terms of which parent.
And if they do, it's always gonna be the same parent.
And what's gonna happen and what always happens in these situations, or often I should say, is that now
Mom gets super burnt out.
And what I often see in couples and what I really have to help them with is that dad's like, well, they only want mom.
So what what am I gonna do?
I'm trash.
And the monk goes, Okay, so then you're on your phone scrolling on the couch.
Well, I'm dealing with all of our children who only want me.
He's like, Well, they don't want me.
They tell me they don't want me.
And then I have to come in and be like, that's not the point.
Your children don't run the house.
Yeah, right
Right?
And if you want your children to eventually want to come to you, you actually have to step in and be like, I get you want mom.
I love her too.
She is the best.
She gives good w hugs and good snuggles.
She's super good at comforting
And I I'm gonna comfort you too.
So why don't you tell me about all the ways that you love how mummy comforts you as I go and take you to bed or as we go play Lego together, as we go do this.
And you really, as the non-preferred parent, have to put your ego aside and step in and be like, if I want them to eventually come to me, I'm gonna have to show them that they can.
Yeah.
I just I think this is funny because let's be real
We do kind of give in with our little our youngest.
Well that's a whole other episode.
Especially when it comes to batteries.
I know.
I know.
That's our next episode.
And the reason I wanted to do that episode on or maybe it's kind of giving in to tantrums.
Yeah.
So that's just a little teaser that we're gonna do an episode on giving in because I needed to do that episode.
So that one's coming down, so just stay tuned for that.
And you can uh let us know if if you can relate to that.
That's more our laziness, you know.
Well, and also my uh heartbreak over my youngest child getting older.
Yeah.
So anywho
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurtur First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unspeakable.
safe touch and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff like tickling that goes too far and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
We made this course at Nurture First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak
up sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
So check the course out at nurturefirst.
com/slash body safety and to save 10% use the code
robot unicorn.
And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
What happens when we
understand the clinginess, so we understand where it comes from, all that, but are just completely depleted, like you were when you were sick.
How do we actually hold our own boundaries without rejecting the child or sending a message that their needs are too much for us?
Yeah, it's so such a few.
I couldn't do it.
Yeah.
Right.
And I really think about myself when I was pregnant, morning sick, or having a new baby, and that clinginess would happen.
And it's just like I can't physically give myself anymore to you
So I do think about the underlying reason being your bot your child's body's like frantic.
They want to know that they're okay.
They want to know that you're okay.
And so especially as they get older, it's almost like bridging the separation between you and them, which is kind of my way of talking, but
basically being like, how does your child know that they're safe and okay and you are okay with them and and you will come and spend that time with them even when you can't in that exact moment.
So where are those pieces of connection
Right.
So if I think about let's say being postpartum and you're breastfeeding and your toddler is just clinging and whining and crying to you.
Well maybe they need to know when
they're gonna have you and they need to know that you're okay even though you're kind of crying and sitting on the couch feeding your baby and everything's tough, right?
So maybe it's a simple conversation of like, hey
Everything's changed.
I feel that too.
Change is tricky.
I want you to know that I love you.
Nothing has ever changed about my love for you.
And right now I'm feeding the baby.
But let's set it 15-minute timer and in 15 minutes we're gonna color a book together.
Or something like that, so that they know when they can expect time with you, and then allowing a bit of that discomfort at the same time.
Like it's okay for your child to be a little bit Yeah, I was just gonna say that seems great in theory, but the reality is
They're gonna have a tantrum regardless.
But both do both.
And then do the thing.
Do the 15 minutes later where you s you color together, right?
But then sometimes it means for in that in-between time, they have to feel uncomfortable and be sad that they can't
spend that time with you.
And that's okay.
And I teach clients all the time, like, tears are not the problem.
They're often the solution, right?
So sometimes they need to be sad about the fact that it's hard to wait for mom.
And sometimes they need to have that tantrum in between
And eventually they won't always have that tantrum, right?
But there's so many times that I'm sitting on the couch breastfeeding, feeling trapped underneath my baby, or the toddler's having a tantrum on the floor, and the best and only thing I can really do is be like, it's okay.
Like let it out.
Let out your tears.
This is tough for me too.
I wish I could be right there beside you.
I can't right now.
And I still love you.
And just allowing them to have that
tantrum and you're kind of offering your calm during it, knowing that eventually they will learn that everything is still okay, even if you're not with them right at that point.
second.
Yeah.
If that makes sense.
So I think it's both.
It's allowing the discomfort, but also doing the coaching.
I feel like that comes with it's probably a completely separate conversation, but
That comes with a lot of discomfort in parents too.
Cause I feel like for me, whining and crying and clinging, it takes a lot for me
to not get incredibly annoyed.
Well and we've I think we've had a conversation specifically on whining before where we talked about like the pitch of whining and how it's like meant to like activate you as a parent.
But I think the clinging especially, yeah, it's really
hard and frustrating and I think really for me I have to remember their littleness and remember that like this is a call not to
Fix or put out some fire but to just like tune in and be physically close to you so that they can be safe.
And sometimes there's pieces too of like, how can I offer some physical closeness to them?
Like can I just give them like a really giant bear hug until they let go first?
Can I, like, as I'm walking by just kiss their little heads?
Like is there little
ways that maybe you could actually add in a little bit more physical closeness to them throughout the day so that that need is met before they're asking.
Mm-hmm.
I always think about that.
Anticipate the need before.
And if I can do that, which I can't always, it does help.
Okay, I think we'll end on this.
Is there ever a point, or I guess a better question is how would parents distinguish between what is
developmentally normal clinginess and something that might be a concern or more of like a learned behavior or something like I don't know.
At what point do you kind of stop to think uh this is actually more of a concern than just a developmentally normal reaction for them to have to the situation?
So first off, I just we haven't talked a lot about this, but I do think it just to reiterate, it is okay to set some boundaries.
Like just because your child's clingy doesn't mean you have to carry them around all day.
Part of it is allowing them to feel discomfort at times
but also having that those bridges.
Okay.
So just clarifying that.
I would see cleanness as a problem if it's your child's getting older, let's say
And you're out of that big change or transition or whatever's happening and you've kind of gone through that checklist of all the reasons why kids are cleany, whiny, and they're still cleany and whiny like every single day.
And you're noticing it's like impacting their ability to feel confident or to go out and do things.
And every time you go anywhere, they they just clinging
Cry and whine, but they don't eventually go off and feel comfortable doing things, right?
They just only will be on your lap.
They won't go to school, even you're trying all these other strategies, and they still won't do it
To me, sometimes that can become a sign of there's a bit of an anxious attachment there, there's some anxiety in the child that we're not quite understanding
Maybe there's something going on in the home or something even within the child that we're not quite understanding and there's a missing piece.
And I would say I I specifically see that more when kids are approaching like that school age, like five, six, seven, and they still are clinging.
crying to their parent without ever kind of feeling that comfort to eventually go and do things on their own.
Right.
And I think uh an episode that maybe would be helpful for those
parents, I might look at our we've done some episodes on worry and anxiety.
I might then listen to those episodes.
I think that could be helpful.
Okay.
Yeah, I think that sounds good.
Yeah.
So is there any one last piece of advice you want to give parents who are dealing with this?
I think yes.
I think the last piece of advice I want to give is for the parent who is really overwhelmed.
And I did promise that we'd come back to this
But who do you turn to when you're so depleted and your child just needs you and you feel like you have nothing left to give to them?
Of course you can do all the things that we talked about today, but who do you turn to for you to depend on, right?
Because I know, let's say when I was sick
my one saving grace was that I could talk to you and you could eventually like take over or just say, hey Jess, just go take a nap.
I've got this.
And it really reminded me of how much we need to depend on someone else
Right?
And you joked about me being clingy and whiny to you.
I kinda was.
Like it was kinda like when I was sick at least.
It was kind of like
this chain reaction of like I'm being needed and now I need someone that I can depend on.
Right.
And also to know that it's okay for your child to have more than one person that they're attached to and they can depend on
And even if it's not you and you're like, oh, they only want me, but you know that your parent, let's say, is very safe and loving and truly cares about your child, like it's okay for them to step in and babysit your child while you go take a nap or get the break that you need or spend time with your baby or whatever it is.
is.
So I really think too is like sometimes we cannot handle the clinging, crying and whining because we need someone to cling and cry and
blind to and we need that.
So who are those people for you?
And I think finding that village, whether that's friends or parents or other relatives or siblings or whatever it is.
We n we need that support too and parents need that support.
And if you don't have that support and it's really hard, I just want to say it makes sense.
Yep.
That's I think where I want to end it today.
Sounds great.
Well, we will talk to you all very soon.
We've given you a little teaser for what's uh what might be coming down uh next and thank you for listening.
Yeah
Thanks for the conversation.
Hey friends, thank you so much for listening to today's episode.
We are glad that you are here.
If you enjoyed today's episode and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate it if you'd leave a rating and a review.
Scott and I actually sit down together and read them all.
A five-star rating helps us share our podcast and get these important messages out there.
Thank you so much for listening and we can't wait to talk to you again next time.