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Transforming the Game with Kristina Katsanevas is the podcast for game-changers, risk-takers, and industry shakers. Don’t hate the player—hate the game? Not here. These leaders are rewriting the rules. From high-net-worth entrepreneurs, founders of Australia’s most iconic brands, and those disciplined enough to keep stacking those habits to success. We dive into the minds of pioneers innovating in media, business, fashion, sport and transformation.
Want to know how to break the mold and redefine success in your career, business, and life?
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Kristina Katsanevas (01:26)
when it comes to money. I love talking about it. When it comes to empowering women about their finance and actually building wealth and independence for themselves. I'm all for it. So tell us a little bit about what got you into finance and why you're so focused on helping other women build their own wealth.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (01:46)
⁓ a long time ago, all I wanted was to buy a house and travel overseas. And once I traveled overseas, I was finally able to get a deposit. I came back home, went to the bank and they said no. And it was soul crushing. and
didn't buy house until five years after that original meeting And I couldn't believe that mortgage brokers existed. Because when I, this was obviously a long time ago, I came back home and I just thought I would have been so far ahead if I had known mortgage brokers existed so that I had more than just one chance of getting a loan. So that's what got me into it. I just didn't want other people to go through what I had gone through, which was the
Kristina Katsanevas (02:25)
Mm.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (02:30)
being out of the property market for another five years and we can see nowadays what being out of the property market for five years can do to your purchase price. And what really drives me is seeing other women succeed. So it just gives me enormous satisfaction to know that I've actually played a role, even if it's a tiny little role, heading them in the right direction, maybe giving them
them a little bit of advice on how to save or how to borrow or to even have the have the audacity to follow their dreams. that's why I wrote my first book which was called Buy That House How Kick-Ass Women Make It Happen and my next book which helps self-employed women understand finance
Kristina Katsanevas (03:06)
Mm.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (03:19)
and understand how they can grow their business quicker through leverage.
Kristina Katsanevas (03:24)
Leverage, yes, it's something they don't think about much. What's the biggest blocker in the women coming to you?
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (03:30)
Well, that was the thing that I noticed initially. I've been in networking groups and business groups and coaching groups and on individual coaching for many years. My entire self-employed career, I have had some sort of external input advice and it was never about finance. So I was sitting in these business groups, seeing all these other successful businesses and I just assumed that they had just done
More of the same thing and the discussion was never about finance and I wanted to bring that to light I wanted to to make sure that people knew and the discussion started around what financing can actually do for your business, so I went through it myself and I was just doing longer hours and more of the same thing and never just getting enough money to scale my business until
I borrowed to make it happen. So I originally acquired another business which got me to the next level of business and then I went on to acquire another business separately. Now this additional cash flow, the leverage helped me grow my team. It helped me invest in marketing, in tech, in property and of course it increased my revenue.
and gave me more opportunities to expand my team as well. And that was all done through borrowing to make it happen.
Kristina Katsanevas (05:02)
So where did you get the confidence to know what debt was good debt and what to look for and what the right numbers and metrics were for the return on investment? Because a lot of people, know, credit cards, everything's very easy to come by now. So how did you spend it on the right thing and know that that was good debt over bad debt?
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (05:21)
Well, I certainly made a lot of mistakes along the way. many years ago, when the kids were pretty young, my husband stopped working to take care of the kids. And what I realized, and I've learned my lessons the hard way. I don't want other women to have to go through what I did and learn the lessons the hard way. But what happened when my husband stopped working?
Our savings account was just slowly going down. Not noticeably, but just like four or five hundred dollars a month. And I just thought, wait a sec, I'm doing all the right things. I'm making additional repayments to my home loan and I'm budgeting. I'm doing all the right things. But I realised I needed to do a financial audit on myself and change my habits around spending because I used to go out and I would
I would have a great month in business and I would reward myself by going out and buying clothes, going out and having lunch and not even thinking about how much I was spending because I felt as though I deserved whatever I was buying.
not acknowledging that when I would go and pay the credit card that I had just spent up big on, it was actually coming out of those advance payments from the home loan or out of the offset account or the savings. So I did an audit of all of my spending And what I had
to do was actually make a conscious effort to stop spending and not actually entertain myself by going to the shopping centers and make a conscious effort to focus on my finances rather than my lifestyle. So that was the initial realization that I had to actually stop having credit cards and be connected with my spending more. And then further on from that,
Kristina Katsanevas (07:02)
Yep.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (07:08)
When it came to growing the business, I knew that if I invested in this spend, the return on investment had to be more than what I was spending each month. So if I made a decision to get a car, for example,
That's not a revenue generating asset generally. So I needed to make sure that if I spent on that, I could justify it in my cash flow.
Or I could go and spend the money on something that I could measure the return on the investment. So I could take this $5,000 and spend it on team building activity and maybe the return on investment would be there. But if I spent it on marketing, I could measure it much more clearly.
Kristina Katsanevas (07:37)
you
And what's your rule on if you do leverage what's the timeframe? So someone might go, I might make it back in a year, or you're saying, no, you should make it back within the month or two months, it should be two times return or what's some rules people could
look into so they don't start going, I've got some equity in my home, I might pull it out and put it into the business and buy a
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (08:17)
Well, of course it needs to be sensible. In business, it depends on what you're investing the money into. If you're investing it in marketing, you would expect a return within three months and a multiple of the investment you've made.
If it's property for example, when you're buying, if you're in a retail space, buying the commercial space in maybe a self-managed super fund, that return would be over many years. So it's transferring rent going nowhere, like to your landlord, into your future, like your self-managed super fund. So if you've got a space, an office space,
and you are able to buy that maybe in your self-managed super fund, which means you're not actually pulling money out of an existing asset. You are borrowing and using the deposit that is already sitting in your self-managed super fund that you've probably accumulated over the course of your career. So that's one way to do it. But you can also get unsecured lending. So if you're...
Kristina Katsanevas (09:18)
with unsecured lending.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (09:20)
Unsecured lending is where they don't require an asset. So when you're getting a home loan,
They secure the property against the loan, which means you get a really low interest rate and you can pay it off over 30 years. You build equity in the home after a period of time. So let's say, for example, 10 years ago, you bought a home for 500,000. It's probably worth a million dollars now. And you would have maybe got a loan of 450,000, for example, and paid that down over time. If your debt is 300,000,
$650,000 equity available in that property. Now if you're not using that available equity to scale your business
That's lazy equity and so much potential that you've got in there. So let's say for example, you've got a cafe and you have the right systems in place and you're doing really, really well in that cafe and you think you could replicate that same strategy at a different location, but you don't feel like you've got enough money. You go and use that money that you've got sitting in your home as equity to
create another location for the cafe.
You can also do that if you're in demand in the health space. So if you're a physiotherapist, you're maxed out at your current location, you can buy the additional equipment using unsecured lending or asset finance or equipment finance. And these are all available. Even if you don't own a home, you can get lending to scale your business.
Kristina Katsanevas (10:58)
And is that something you do with your current business where you'll help secure lending for their business? Because I do know it's hard for business owners to find money and get money. Even I know people who have been in business for 20 years and they're a profitable business, they're still struggling to get a home loan because they changed business partners. And it was, in my opinion, crazy, but that's banks for you.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (11:15)
Yeah.
Kristina Katsanevas (11:23)
So what's your opinion on getting a home for building wealth for women? I've heard different things and that you should even sell your home because it's not the way to build wealth. you were saying how you were trying to get, when you first started, you were trying to get a loan to buy a home, which is what is the Australian dream. It's what you're told when you're growing up is you save some money and you get a deposit.
and you buy your first home. But now the smarter way of building wealth maybe isn't necessarily to go down that route.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (11:51)
Well, there's so many different strategies that you can use. I love property because that's...
the way that's one of the ways that I've built wealth. There's a lot of different opinions out there. You can borrow to buy a business and then you can own that business within three years. And then you've got all this money and all this value in the business. But we all know what the business world is like and how valuations can be all over the place. And you've got to find the right buyer to get the right money. Look, there can be huge value in business. And that's also how I've built my wealth.
but I am really passionate about property and diversity. So if you've got all your money in business, you're probably not spreading the risk. So I like to diversify and I always know that I need a place to live and for my own security and my family's security, knowing that I've got somewhere to live
But also I've got that extra equity in my property that I can build further wealth on. So if I take that equity out and buy an investment property then that's building the wealth further and that's how I've done it over the last couple of decades. People, is a view that you should buy an investment property first and it's a great way to get into the market. Keep your
expenses low
But I think that if you're looking at getting into the market, it's a great way to secure the foundation. But it depends on what you find easier to do if you're if it's easier to grow a business first and then rent for a number of years. Most of my clients
Kristina Katsanevas (13:33)
No.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (13:36)
own property or we get them on the path to own property. So part of my role as a finance strategist is to understand what you're looking to achieve and then set a path so that you can get there through finance or leverage or asset finance or equipment finance or any sort of leverage that we can use to make you get there faster. So maybe you think
you
need to save up $20,000 so that you can launch this new product and get your business to the next level. You don't necessarily have to do that because there are financial products out there available for you to leverage so that you can get into the market sooner. Because sometimes it's really difficult to save an extra $20,000 because it could dry up all your cash flow and then leave you with no
Kristina Katsanevas (14:29)
me.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (14:35)
no backup. You know, might fall behind on him.
Kristina Katsanevas (14:36)
Yeah. How do people know if they're
getting over leveraged? Because that's quite a dangerous place where people borrow and borrow and then they're into their eyeballs and they've got nowhere to go and then they have to go bankrupt.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (14:46)
So it's really important to understand your cash flow.
Kristina Katsanevas (14:50)
Yeah, okay.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (14:50)
cash flow
forecasting and making sure that when you're borrowing you have factored it into the cash flow forecast and you really understand your numbers. This is where most businesses who over leverage fall down because they're not actually forecasting out the revenue that is coming from that investment. So if you're borrowing you need to understand the impact that will have on your cash flow and if it doesn't actually bring more money
you're gonna really...
You're going to hold yourself back with scaling so it has to really make sense when it comes to How does this investment work with the cash flow if you're borrowing to hire for example? You need to know that that hire is going to free up your time or bring in more sales to increase your revenue but only increase your costs to
a place that you can still be profitable. So you want to be able to make sure that it works into your cash flow so that you end up in a better position, not in the same position or a worse position.
Kristina Katsanevas (15:59)
When you say like, look at the cash flow forecast, you have like tools or tips for financial illiterate people who are like, I don't know how to calculate my cash flow forecast because they're like, I got money coming in, I got money going out, I've got this bill, I'm just gonna pay this bill. And they're very creative and they know their products, but when it comes to the actual, like you're saying.
This is king, you need to know your cash flow, but is there a tool or is there something that they can look at or if you put it in layman terms for them to go consider this.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (16:28)
So the number one advice I can give is to get a bookkeeper because they love all the detail in the numbers. I don't love getting in with the detail. I do love it when I first do it, but maintaining it. Because when I first do it, that's exciting. Because I think, oh, this will make me this much and this is where I can be if I settle this much. That's exciting stuff. But when it comes to the month to month, it's like, oh, I'm exhausted. Just putting it in there. But there are spreadsheets of
that simplify cashflow forecasting. So you can do it in your accounting software, be it Xero or Myob or whatever platform you use. Or you can speak to your accountant or bookkeeper, or there are simple spreadsheets that can do it for you. I've got an available spreadsheet that I can share with any of your listeners to make it easier. Even if just the big chunky thing.
Kristina Katsanevas (17:20)
lovely, we can link that below.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (17:25)
where you know what your expenses are and simplify it down into a short list of numbers.
Kristina Katsanevas (17:31)
Right, so what would you classify as bad debt? Because you're all about leverage, which is actually, most people get scared when they think of loans or debts or things like that. You're all about the leverage of going actually pull down, and you will have more debt. That's what leverage is. It's using that to buy something else. So what's considered bad debt for people and what's considered good debt?
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (17:53)
Bad debt is debt for lifestyle. So if you want to just go out and buy a boat
you do that when you've got enough profit and enough personal income that you can make the repayments on the boat and maintain all the ongoing costs of a boat. So that's bad debt unless the boat is generating revenue. So if you hire the boat out, that's good debt. So any debt that is purchasing and appreciating assets
Kristina Katsanevas (18:15)
Yeah.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (18:27)
or generating revenue so your home loan that's good debt because you've got an asset your house that increases in value over time so that is an appreciating asset
A car loan is actually bad debt unless you're using that car for business and it generates revenue or it saves an expense. So let's say for example you have a florist business and you have somebody else doing the deliveries. If you can get a little van and do the deliveries cheaper than you have an outsourced
company doing it, that's good debt because it's saving you expenses. Another good debt is an office fit out where you're adding in like, let's say you're a physiotherapist and you get physiotherapy equipment like a TENS machine or a treatment bed or a reception desk. All of those sort of things are required to run your business which generates revenue.
So that's all good debt. Bad debt is paying BAS on a credit card because the credit card not only has a high interest rate, it means that you haven't actually planned effectively to cover the BAS payments in your cash flow. So bad debt is lifestyle.
Kristina Katsanevas (19:50)
Hmm.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (19:53)
covering short-term cash flow things that you possibly should have planned for. However, that is available. But if you end up getting that, it is strongly advisable to make sure that you can cover the repayments on that debt plus allow in your cash flow for the GST payments that will be due in the future.
Kristina Katsanevas (20:17)
Yeah,
yeah, cashflow is king. With this self-employment of the women that you're trying to assist and that are coming to you for advice and to help build their wealth, with the being usually maybe self-employed, do you find there's a lot of founders, entrepreneurs out there that are creating a job for themselves, but not really building any wealth?
So they've created a job, congratulations, but you're not actually building the wealth. And I did see some stats that there's 14 % in 2024, only 14 % of businesses actually got an exit. So the rest that were closing, closed their doors. So if you are in a business, created a job, you haven't built any wealth, and then you actually aren't setting yourself up for an exit, which means you just close your doors, you've kind of got nowhere to go and how do
like retiring is getting later and later. So are you seeing a lot of that and what advice would you give to people now to start because it's never too late to start to actually build wealth while building their business?
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (21:17)
Absolutely, that's such a depressing statistic, Christina. You spend your life in the business and because you haven't actually gone and scaled and made yourself redundant, it just means there's no exit. having access to the tools, which is the finance, to actually maybe five years before you retire.
Kristina Katsanevas (21:21)
I don't
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (21:40)
build yourself out of the business. So there is absolutely options for you to be able to do that. And if you plan it well and make the finance work for you, it's absolutely doable so that you can exit on a high and not just close your doors.
Kristina Katsanevas (21:57)
And what would some of the things they could start doing now if they go, okay, I haven't done anything and I do just have a job and if I stop, everything stops. So how could they, what would be some things they should maybe little tips and tricks to start building a bit more wealth for themselves, whether it's through super or assets or we're talking leverage and debt, but you've got to pay that back eventually. So what's some things they could build some wealth to set themselves up?
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (22:20)
Absolutely, it's about building a team within the business. It's about building a team and doing that effectively so that your profit stays the same, or higher. You're still paying yourself.
Kristina Katsanevas (22:24)
pain.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (22:34)
you're not actually making concessions on your income as you're building the team. Now, when you're doing that, if you factor in maybe buying your own commercial space or a different property in a self-managed superfund, quite often you've got money in super if you've been working your entire life, even if you are self-employed. Maybe if you're five years away from retirement and you've got zero in your super, obviously you'll have to use
other strategies like scaling your business really quickly. You can look at even acquiring another business and adopting the same strategies because acquiring another business and just replicating your own system, taking on their team members or something like that, that's a really quick way to do it. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to be in debt forever because usually, depending on what multiple you're buying the business at,
you can actually repay that debt very quickly through a clever
a clever finance strategy when you are acquiring the business, which would make it a win-win. So if you are thinking that you are just working in a job rather than scaling a business, the first thing you could possibly do is sit down with a finance strategist like me and map out what your options are because the true options for you are all in your finances. So you might have a discussion that
is around something you've never thought of before. So if you're a business coach, we might talk about how to get more business coaches under you and scale your business that way. And that way you're making yourself redundant. And instead of closing your doors at retirement, you might have an option to sell because you've built your team under you and then you're no longer needed in the business, which a managed business is much easier to sell
Kristina Katsanevas (24:04)
Mm.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (24:29)
than if you're actually working in the business.
Kristina Katsanevas (24:32)
Yes,
yes, I'm big on the mergers and acquisitions and acquiring and scaling the businesses right and setting yourself up for exits first. So getting the right team, getting people under you, getting it managed and coming, finding experts like yourself to help set up that plan is really important. What do you feel about ⁓ when people should chase cashflow to capital growth?
Like when should you go more for cash flow? When should you go for capital growth? Is there anything where people should go, okay, no, should invest more for this or that.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (25:03)
It's not one or the other. It's part of the entire strategy because as you're look cash flow is really important and if you're across that the opportunities that you can set yourself up for when it comes to finance are endless. So once you've got your cash flow in order, you know exactly where you can pull the trigger and what opportunities you can look out for as they arise. So let's say for example,
or acquisition, the opportunity for that comes up. If you're all across your cash flow, you know exactly how you can leverage and who you need to speak to and what your options are. You may not have a huge amount of cash in the business, but if you see an opportunity for a merger or acquisition, you'll be able to pull the trigger on that because you do know your cash flow and there are a lot of creative financing solutions
around these sort of opportunities. So you don't have to have a spare million dollars in your cashflow to buy a million dollar business. Because there's also opportunities that you can get financing that does not rely on the equity in your house or you having a massive surplus. So there's lots of different opportunities available for financing. It's just very, very deal specific. And it's just a matter of speaking to the
right person and putting a strategy in place.
I've lost you. I can't hear you for the moment.
Kristina Katsanevas (26:34)
Test test. I'll start again. No, I think my I think my mic died. Sorry, got to Okay, go back. So what was I saying? What does Yeah, what does your actual personal wealth portfolio look like? How have you broken up it for because you're talking about diversification ⁓ earlier and I know a lot of people especially older people get quite stuck in one way but what is your what is your portfolio look like? What have you recommended?
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (26:35)
That's better. You might have to say that you might be... Whoops. Lucky.
So.
I the first thing I bought was my family home and I just I just needed a place to live. It's not a fancy place or you know, I don't I don't buy five million dollar houses or anything like that. I just need to house the family and it's comfortable enough. But I know that if I've got other people paying the debt through investment properties, that's been a way that I've been I've effectively been able to add multiple properties to my investment portfolio. So as soon as I got equity in my first
home, I borrowed and I paid mortgage insurance on the other investments that I bought and then I bought another business and then a few years later I bought another business and I bought the commercial space that I'm in. Then in the future I will be looking at developing the commercial space and maybe adding another property on behind one of my investment properties.
I'm not rich by any means when it comes to you look at somebody and you think, wow, they must be so rich. I'm not from wealth. I worked hard to make it happen. And it's just about taking that risk, borrowing and investing. So the properties have just ultimately paid for themselves. And it took about 12 years for the properties to pay for themselves.
I was putting in extra money every week because otherwise I would spend it. I'm a spender. So if I can just put money into investments or business, that works really well for me. And that's just, it's just a little bit... Totally.
Kristina Katsanevas (28:37)
automating investing first. Pay yourself first, they say.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (28:41)
Totally. And you can just be a regular person. I'm just a regular person who's just put the money in the right places and taken risk and worked really hard to make it happen.
Kristina Katsanevas (28:52)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. yeah, as you say, maybe cashflow poor but asset risk rich now because you took some risks, you've reinvested, you've leveraged out and you kept paying it off and now they pay for themselves. So now you have all these assets and property to get started. So if we, what do you do when it comes, you say, you you bought for your family home. So do you have children?
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (29:14)
I have four children. Yes.
Kristina Katsanevas (29:16)
children, holy moly. ⁓ For
children, so how do you teach them wealth or are you doing anything specific for them to set them up for wealth creation as they get older? ⁓
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (29:29)
Absolutely.
We constantly talk about money in our house and business and business structure. And my 15 year old is doing business at school. So he asks questions about entities and companies and how that all works and every opportunity. I love business. So every opportunity that I can insert it anywhere and talk to them about entrepreneurship and cash flow and profit and loss. And so my ⁓
He
was 10 at the time or could be 9 or 10 at the time. My third child, only a few years ago, he wanted to sell candles. Well, he's had these little businesses at school and then he decided he and his mate wanted to sell candles. So we went and took the money out of his savings and we went and bought all the gear and did all the candles and he made $500 on Mother's Day weekend by selling them.
the front in our driveway. But he learned all about marketing and then he learned about revenue, the difference between revenue and cost of goods sold and then all the other things that go behind it. that was, yeah, he just loves little businesses like that. And he said, oh, mum, want to buy, I want to sell more candles. And I just said, look, that takes too much of my effort. So let's call it quits on the candle business. And you think of some
else. So then he got into 3D printing and now he's just focusing on his education. yeah constantly having these conversations.
Kristina Katsanevas (31:01)
teaching them little businesses,
do you do anything for them? Have you got like, share accounts or anything? Or you're just more about teaching them the fundamentals of, of money at a young age that they understand its value.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (31:07)
of course.
all of that.
So a few years ago, we opened a raise account for each of the kids so they can see the app on their phones and see how much they're making. So recently, my 18 year old has stopped taking shifts at work, which really annoys me because I feel as though that work ethic isn't as strongly ingrained as they need. So you know, when there's
when they have a comfortable life, they're not driven to work hard. So I stopped any funding of anything. And I said to him recently, I'm worried because I took money out of his account and put it in the raise account. And that money is put aside not for them to spend, but for them to invest. They can do whatever they like in the future, but it's purely for investments. And I said to him recently, I don't think you're going to have enough money to go to school.
and he said, mum, I have to tell you, I've got $300 in cash. I'm like, damn it, he's not getting that feeling of poverty yet. You you've got to feel really broke to find that motivation to want to work. Yes.
Kristina Katsanevas (32:17)
Bye.
Some do, absolutely, I agree. A lot of the kids
just don't seem to have that work ethic sometimes, or they think they want the money and then you give them a job and they're like, oh, it's a bit hard. You're like, uh-huh.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (32:34)
I know,
I'm worried about our future.
Kristina Katsanevas (32:35)
I remember I was
in high school and we were going on a school camp and my girlfriend and I were like, we want some money. So we went and door knocked and washed cars after car. think we were charging, I don't know, I feel like it was $10 a car. And we did and we got $100 in that one thing. No, the first time we got rejected quite a bit and then we made 10 then we made 20 and I think that first day might have been 30 bucks and we were like $15 each suite. So then the next day we did it again, just door knock and door knock and door knock until we made about $200 and we were
stoked, but we still went, how do we make some money and we go, we got a bucket and a hose, we can go doorknock. And I don't know if I'd see the kids doing that today. But it's very important. It's very, very important. So I've loved talking about this. love empowering women when it comes to
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (33:06)
love that.
hardly.
Kristina Katsanevas (33:25)
⁓ finance, money, creating your own independence. Is there any final words or anything I haven't asked you that you really think we need to get out there to our listeners to make sure that they're on track for financial freedom in their life?
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (33:37)
Absolutely. I think my closing remark is around leverage. It's a scary thing for some, but feel the fear and do it anyway.
Kristina Katsanevas (33:47)
100%,
feel the fear and do it anyway. Just make sure you're investing in something that is gonna generate you income and it's not the bad debt that we've talked about. Go seek out a professional like Caroline to get help and get the strategy. You're not expected to be the expert, but make sure you ask the questions and then you set yourself up.
Thank you so much for being on Transforming the Game Caroline. I really appreciated and enjoyed this chat and I hope people have gotten a lot out of it, taken a lot of notes as we are going to make every woman here plenty of money.
Caroline Jean-Baptiste (34:19)
Thanks Christina!
Kristina Katsanevas (34:21)
Thank you. All right, I'm gonna cancel the recording. have to stay.