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A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.
Speaker 2: Good morning,
Speaker: Tom.
Speaker 2: Good morning.
It's not morning for you.
That is a lie.
It's not
Speaker: morning.
That's true.
Yes.
It's about five, 5 30 PM for me.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Because you are in Amsterdam.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Nice.
Nice.
How you doing?
Speaker: Good.
Good.
We are, we've been here for a week.
We're basically living on Pacific
time zone, so it's really easy.
There's no time zone switch over.
It's been very comfortable.
We work.
Speaker 2: Yep.
And you just stay up super
late or maybe not super late.
It's till two, two in the morning.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Two or three in the morning.
Not bad.
Nice.
So
Speaker 2: how are you?
I'm doing good.
I'm here in extremely hot San Francisco.
This has been as far as historical
documentation goes, this has been the
hottest week in San Francisco since I
have lived here, certainly it was like
90 degrees, two different days this week.
Speaker 3: October.
Speaker 2: Yes.
And I, there's no air conditioning
in my apartment, so I have been.
Both living at our WeWork, but also just
sitting in my apartment and Sweating.
Wow.
So yes it's broken today.
I had my windows deliciously open
overnight and some nice cool San
Francisco air blew in, so I'm
feeling better this morning, but
we're not totally out of it yet.
Yeah.
Speaker: Any, it's been a little
while since we recorded maybe three
weeks because we've been traveling
and having various conflicts.
Yes.
Any stoic thoughts since.
We last talked
Speaker 2: well, I think a yes, definitely
and I don't always clock them But be
I was thinking about I was trying to
before we recorded this episode I was
remembering what we were talking about
on the podcast when we last recorded it
I think part of it was we were having
these Discussions about like we were
reminding ourselves of how young Marcus
was when he assumed the throne and there
was this sort of Oh, yeah, Marcus is
a teenager Reminder we were giving to
him Ourselves because it helped explain
the whole like, oh, he sleeps in really
late and he loves staying in bed and
he's like maybe a little petulant with
his courts or his advisors or whatever.
So I know we have a policy on this podcast
of not looking up to more, not historians.
We don't try to be historians.
That's not the game here.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But there was, I just
couldn't get the question out of my
head as I was thinking about this.
How old is Marcus when he is
actually writing the meditations?
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: And so I looked up the
answer to that question and it turns
out when he's writing this text, he
is, he wrote it over, maybe a decade
or something like that, we think.
And the historical consensus seems
to be that he was in his 50s and
60s when he was writing this.
Oh, wow.
Yeah, exactly.
Okay.
So he's not a teenager.
He's not.
That's not it.
Oh.
So all right.
He still is somebody obviously who
maybe was Is certainly affected by the
trajectory that his life took when he was
a teenager when he becomes the emperor,
but he is not a new emperor by any means.
Boy, he was emperor for a long time.
Yes.
Yeah.
That was the other thing
is I also realized I don't
even know when did he die?
I don't know how.
So yeah, he's what I learned
is he's born in like one, one
21 or something like that.
And this was written in like
the one seventies and one.
Yeah.
80s.
Wow.
Is the theory.
Anyway.
He's an old man.
He, he is on the part that we do have
right about the history is that a lot of
it is written while he's out on campaign.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: With the military, but
he's by the standards of Rome then
he's pretty old writing these things.
Okay.
Thanks for cheating.
Speaker: Thanks for breaking the rules.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know if that
makes the podcast better or worse.
I think it makes it a little
bit more interesting to know
he's, this is not just the work.
This isn't teenage mind is someone who
has seen a lot, which I think frankly
as I think about that, I think that
stands to reason if he'd written this.
As at, in his twenties or whatever,
it would have been a pretty
remarkably prolific and impressive
thing for somebody that young.
That's a good one.
So anyway, fun fact, Marcus has
old, this is was also coming up for
me because the day this year where
or since we last talked, where.
Stoic thoughts did come up a bit was
that it was my birthday last week.
And so I, that's a day that
can have, an opportunity to
think a little philosophically.
I think, and I don't, I can't remember
if we, this is something we've already
discussed on the podcast or not but
what Marcus's relationship to a birthday
would be, I have to imagine is nothing.
Is that's.
Speaker: It must be culturally defined.
I don't know what, how the
Romans thought about birthdays.
I doubt it.
It's the sort of
Americana, congratulations.
Hooray for you.
Hooray for you for
surviving kind of mentality.
Yeah but, but yeah, that
is very interesting.
We talked about the Russian version,
which is like, you're a year older.
And if there is any celebration,
then just keep in mind, this
only happens once a year.
Yeah,
Speaker 5: that's right.
Speaker: And then there's also
the sort of version where it's
it's really about your mom, right?
She did the work here.
So go congratulate her.
Yeah, but yeah, I do
wonder what it was like.
And I guess what's what would
stoicism say about birthdays?
It's
Speaker 2: that's where my thinking was.
Yeah, because it just seems to me
like they haven't they certainly
haven't come up in this text so far.
I haven't seen any Marcus
saying it's my birthday today.
Yeah.
Speaker: And if you wrote this over
the course of 10 years, you had 10
opportunities to do some birthdays passed.
Yeah, we're
Speaker 2: halfway through it or whatever.
So maybe we've had five birthdays
transpire over the course of the text.
They have gone completely unmentioned.
I just think that based on everything
we've learned about stoicism over
the course of this podcast, it's hard
for me to imagine somebody who was
really devoted to that philosophy
getting too excited about a birthday.
Yeah.
Agreed.
All right.
That's, that was my little dose of stoic
thinking in the intervening period.
Speaker: On my end another
series of events that required
some of this style of thinking.
We had a trademark trial
where we were the defendant.
It was a jury trial.
We went out to Chicago.
There were eight citizens of
the Chicago metropolitan area,
which served on the jury.
And ultimately found us, not liable.
But it was super scary because how they
found us like the way that this works
is it's I mean It's an incredible system
like the way this whole that part of
legal system works Like they that jury
those people who are could be from any
walk of life, you know Certainly are not
lawyers by trade like end that week by
deliberating and writing on a sheet of
paper You know, not liable, yes liable.
If yes liable, there's like a,
there's like an underline that on
which they write a dollar amount.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: A number
Speaker 2: of zeros.
Speaker 6: A number of zero, just
Speaker: any number.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Let's hope they remember
how to count the zeros correctly
and off by an order of 10.
Yeah,
Speaker: totally.
And that's law and then we have to pay it.
Yeah.
Yep.
And and, there's a lot
of numbers out there.
Certainly the ones that the plaintiff
threw out that would have bankrupt us.
So it was super, yeah, it required, I
think it required a very hardy kind of
framing, stoic framing to stay sane in
that week or not freak out too much.
I think David and I both had David is my
co founder and a mutual friend of ours.
Speaker 2: He was in the
car once when we were.
Oh, he was in the car once.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Anyway,
Speaker: sorry.
A momentary guest.
Yeah, but we both had sort of a.
There's the way to react,
which is what's the point?
We basically have this really bad lawyer
and a lawyer who let's say may not be
really bad, but it's, it was not very
effective in a jury trial environments
Speaker 2: in a 25 year career.
This was his second
time in front of a jury.
No,
Speaker: this was the second
time in front of a jury.
The first time he had lost, like it
was just not this was, we had more
experience than he did talking.
In front of a jury at this point,
like it was just, it was wild.
But, but getting through the week and
ultimately I think winning required
swallowing that sort of frustration
and, working in the system, with
the hand we were dealt basically,
uh, which I think is, Markovian.
Markovian, what is it?
Marcus yes, Aurelian, yeah.
Aurelian, there you go, that's the one.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: So that was the stuff.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: I dig that.
Yeah, that seems like a good, Example
where I think yes, I can certainly
imagine in your shoes getting very
Yiddish word here for toots, which is
to say very all in a Twitter about the
things you can't control under that
setting, how weird your lawyer is being,
how weird the process is, how mean the
other lawyers are being or whatever.
Yeah.
Speaker: So I think we definitely
went all the way and just like fully
imagined, fully planned out what happens
if we lose, the Friday evening sort of
emergency, all hands for all employees.
Yeah, the way that you have to
like, okay guys, this is the problem
this is what happens what happened.
Here's the penalty.
Here's when we have to pay it by Here's
how much bank money we have in the bank
account Yeah, and all that like we went
through all the thinking of what would
have to happen in that scenario Yeah and
it wasn't until after you do that you're
able to get back on your feet and be
like, okay that's the worst case scenario.
Now.
Let's fight with every, tooth
and nail to Not land there
Speaker 2: Yeah, how I feel like
there would be for me probably some
emotional resistance to even going to
that place of thinking it through that.
I think it's hard for us to do that
sometimes think through the worst
case scenario just because it seems so
it's such an unpleasant thing to do.
I'm curious when in the process you
actually arrived there of okay, let's
actually map out that worst case scenario.
Speaker: Yeah.
I think it is the, whatever
the seven stages of grief.
That you are five stages of grief forever.
So it definitely started with denial And
then as things got worse and worse for us,
we went through those stages Bargaining.
Yeah, okay anger bargaining sadness
and then ultimately like fuck it.
We got to deal with the hand we're dealt.
Yeah, I say Yeah, so I think
this probably was Sadness.
Sadness stage where we mapped out the
logistics of what happens if we lose.
Speaker 2: I say, okay, that
comes before acceptance though.
Yeah.
Okay.
But yes, because in a way, Oh, I see.
These are state well but it's
interesting because you're, these are
stages of grief, I think typically.
And this is, this was premature grief
in a way, because the, in some ways the
bad thing had not actually happened.
You were processing it in advance.
Yeah.
Speaker: I guess grief over being
dealt, like finding out the night
before that our lawyer had never, like
actually had no idea what he was doing
and was a horrible public speaker
and sort of his hand was shaking like
uncontrollably and like just all these
things that we, in, yeah, it's not.
Yeah, I guess grief over that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
Yep.
That makes sense.
Totally fair.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, I have to say this.
This is only a, this is not really related
to stoicism, but I've, I heard through
our company debrief afterwards that you
and David did quite a bit of writing
for this guy and went into our old high
school debate bag to To win this case
for which I'm very proud of you guys.
Yeah,
Speaker: we were talking about how it
would have been nice to have you there.
I feel like we could have used the extra.
Speaker 2: I would have
found that very fun for sure.
I'm very happy that you guys had
those skills available to you.
And we're also, I think the thing I
would have struggled with there that I
admire of you guys for you guys is having
the courage to actually bust them out
and be like, no professional player.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're
Speaker 2: gonna write your speech
for, maybe not all of your speech,
but parts of your speech for you.
Take some guts, I think.
Speaker: That, those were
the layers that's the thing.
So the reason we took us so long to
do that is because we kept denying,
we kept being like no way would,
would that actually be the solution.
So it took some work to get there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally resonates for me.
I would have been deep in that
denial bag with you about no.
This guy knows what he's doing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
And he, cause he, he really didn't want
us to write his speech, so it was so
easy to be like, listen, you got it.
Let us know if you need anything.
That was yeah.
Yeah.
18 months of how we treated him.
And
Speaker 2: then in the last
week you realized, Oh, shit.
No, yeah.
Speaker: This, you have to
accept the handwords out here.
Speaker 2: Yes.
I really, maybe it would have been
different if I had been a part of the
process, but as I am hearing this, I
think it's good that I was not there
because I think I would have been on the.
Oh, no, Mark knows what he's
doing side of things and maybe
discouraging you guys from You
Speaker: didn't hear
his opening statement.
I think that's fair.
That's fair.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Maybe I would have felt differently if I,
Speaker: because we all felt
that way, Tom, until I say,
until we like Monday ended and we
realized just how bad things were.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yes.
And I'm just clocking that.
I think that is a, that has
been a consistent dynamic in
our friendship for a long time.
I'm often more the person who's
no, people know what they're doing.
And you tend to be more
like I don't think so.
I know what I saw.
Speaker: Yeah.
No, that's true.
That's true.
That's true.
I actually think David is like
more like you in that way as well.
So I think he's, you and him probably
behaved similarly, would have
behaved similarly in that situation.
I think his anger stemmed from the
fact that he didn't see a way out.
He was like, This is our lawyer.
What can we do?
And it wasn't until we went
through the stages that we
realized, okay, we just do his job.
That's what we do.
Do his job.
Wow.
Wow.
That
Speaker 2: must've been intense.
All right.
So we've had some philosophical
moments and intense moments.
Shall we dive back into the
text here and see what new
things it has in store for us?
Bear in mind, the man writing
these things is an old man.
What old man Marcus has to say.
What does relatively old man
Marcus have to teach us today?
Okay, we are picking up with
entry 37 here in book 7.
Disgraceful, that the mind should
control the face, should be able
to shape and mold it as it pleases,
but not shape and mold itself.
Speaker: This is coming back to me.
I think we read this last
time we were debating that
Speaker 2: too.
We were debating this.
I think we read this as well.
Do we have any quick?
Okay.
My only quick thought about it is I don't
know if I agree even with the premise
Speaker 5: I know
Speaker 2: that the mind
can't shape and mold itself.
Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure about that one.
It returns to Marcus's concept of
the mind, which to us has always
been a little bit slippery, I think.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
It's about his definition of
mind, which he never defined.
So it's just really hard to know if
it's defined the way we mean mind,
then I don't think it makes sense.
And I'm going to give him the
benefit of the doubt and assume
that he's it's something more
complex than we're realizing.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Okay.
To just briefly try to
imagine what that is.
His concept is Your mind is I think
that could control your
actions and stuff like that.
Decides how you react
to the world around you.
Speaker: You're like subconscious.
Maybe that's what he's talking about.
Like you're, you can shape your conscious
mind, but you can't change your sub shape.
That's nice.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
And your subconscious controls your face.
Yeah, exactly.
So I really like that reading because what
he's saying is, and I think this seems
true, people who have like big facial
reactions that are controlled by their
subconscious, he finds that disgraceful.
That seems right to me.
If you can't hold your emotions and
in check with your face, this is
like a very literal form of stoicism.
I think it's like the poker
face version of stoicism that
we still talk about today.
Nice.
I'm satisfied with that.
I do think we probably
talked about that one before.
Okay.
Number 38.
This one's in quotes as
Marcus often likes to do.
And why should we feel anger at the world?
Question mark.
As if the world would notice.
End quote.
Speaker: The good one.
It's nice.
This is a good refrain to keep in
mind when you're feeling angry.
It's just like the
statement is nobody cares.
Like you're not, this is not helping you.
Nobody cares.
Speaker 2: It does feel like, okay,
I'm not, I swear I won't just talk
about him being old and every point
here, but it does feel almost like a
response to a younger version of himself.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 2: Like this feels like
the wisdom of age a little bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: You can imagine him having
been an angry or young man, or maybe
dealing with angry or young man
as a part of his official duties.
Yeah.
His old perspective is.
Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
A 17 year old probably
wouldn't write this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
So this feels like the seasoning of age.
Yeah.
Okay.
Number 39.
May you bring joy to us and those on high.
In quotes this is like a, sounds like
a Christmas carol or something to me.
It sounds like it doesn't sound, it
really doesn't sound anything like Marcus.
What is he quoting?
These are all just quotes.
Yeah.
Okay.
I should point out that one was in
quotes and the next three entries will
also be fully in, in quotation marks.
I don't think, I think his use of
quotation marks here is a little
bit different from our sense of.
What quotation marks means.
I don't think this, my guess is
this doesn't, I don't think it's
coming from anywhere literal.
I think it's more like he's using question
marks, quotation marks, rhetorically as
like the rhetorical person is saying.
Speaker: May you bring joy
to us and those on high.
Is that something that you say to someone?
Is that like a parting goodbye, may
you bring joy to us and those on high?
I think
Speaker 2: I'm reading it.
Yeah, not that I'm reading it.
I guess that's like a motto.
Here's a guiding principle in life.
Yeah.
It's like you joy . I, yeah.
Joy.
I agree.
It's weird to hear.
It's a funny word to hear come
out of his mouth, as it were.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But I guess what I
like about it maybe is that he's
implying like an alignment, or
at least okay, how should we act?
If you take the Venn diagram of things
that are joyful to human beings, and
the things that are joyful to those on
high, presumably meaning the gods and
his concept of the supernatural, and
you take the intersection of those two
things, that might be a pretty good
place to start in terms of how to act.
Got it.
Got
Speaker: it.
So just eating a bunch of chocolate.
Probably doesn't bring a lot of joy to
the gods, so it doesn't fall into the
intersection, becoming a monk may be
joyous to the gods, but I don't like it.
Speaker 2: So don't do that either.
So find the things to find the things
that maybe help other people, but also are
consistent with your duty into the world.
Yes, it does.
It's yeah, it's a nice one actually
for if we read it that way, in terms
of the the bigness of the thought
relative to the economy of the words.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: We're giving
them a lot of credit.
Speaker 2: But yeah.
Yes.
I agree.
Because it also does just seem like
Speaker 6: just the,
Speaker 2: I bought a Christmas
card at, yeah, exactly.
This is what it says on the inside
Speaker: or yeah.
Do you think there's any way world
in which this was like a really
insightful statement at the time?
Like really intense.
Wow.
Someone reading that
would have been floored.
Speaker 2: Boy, it's so hard
to say because it doesn't feel
that way to me, but maybe that's
just because of time the time.
Yeah, I guess my answer.
Is it possible?
Yeah, that seems possible.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But the fact that it's phrased
this way to, we're doing a lot of the
modernizing of the phrasing here because
it does seem like there's another version
of it, which we just interpret literally,
which is hope you make everyone happy.
Speaker 3: Yeah,
Speaker 2: sure.
Which feels a lot less profound.
Speaker: Yeah, this definitely,
Christmas carols did not exist
as when Marcus was writing this.
Yes, there was, I agree.
There was some Roman holiday
that like predated Christmas.
Yes.
I don't know what they sang at that.
Maybe this is just super boring.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Those on high, I got to imagine even
back then that, the religions that did
exist, there would have been concepts of
doing stuff that they like and, all that.
Yeah, I guess my gut really says,
I don't think this was especially
profound, even at the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Number 40.
Again, in quotes to harvest
life, like standing stalks of
grain grown and cut down in turn.
Speaker: Boy, I feel like ancient
people knew so much more about
grain and harvesting that like these
analogies are gonna be hard for us
Speaker 2: to get.
I mean, you feel like you, you can't
understand what he is talking about here.
I can imagine.
You've got some standing stalks of grain.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: They grow nice and tall.
You take your scythe, scythe,
yeah, that's, that is, I was
going to say sickle, but then I
was like, is that the right word?
I think maybe either one of them is
correct, but you take your scythe and you
cut them down and then new ones grow up.
Cause you.
Okay.
Speaker: But do you kill the
plants as part of that process?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but then
you reseed it, I think.
Speaker: Grown and cut down in turn.
So you should harvest your life like
Speaker 2: that's what
I'm wondering about.
I yeah So that's the first three
words here are the part that
I'm the most curious about the
translation of to harvest life
And then blah blah blah.
Does that mean to harvest your own
life or to harvest other forms of life?
Speaker: Yeah, harvesting life,
those two, it sounds sinister to me.
Just maybe too much sci fi, but
Speaker 2: yeah, it sounds like
something pro life people would say
about pro choice people or something.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Again, let's go through our
reflexive generosity lens.
I think he, okay.
To harvest life could also be
like, harvesting is in some sense.
Reaping the benefits of getting the
goodness out of the seeds you've sown.
So he's saying this idea of like the
fields are full of wheat and what you
should do is periodically go cut them
down, get the weed and then reseed it.
And so the same.
Do the same in life.
Find the things in the world that
are opportunities for you to go
get the fruits from or whatever.
And sow the seeds for the future benefit.
Speaker: Okay, so
there's profundity there.
In theory, an alternative way
to harvest life is just to walk
around and hope you find an apple.
But instead, you should do the
patient thing and plant the grain and
go through the process and yes, it
takes a while, that's a good plan.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
And, but part of that is cutting it down.
Don't, he's also saying, don't just
be someone who's Oh no, I don't
deserve to cut down any of the wheat.
I should just grow it and
make sure it's here for other
people or something like that.
I have a duty to just leave things
and not consume any of them.
Okay.
Harvest it.
Do it.
Live.
Grow.
Eat some bread.
Plant your seeds and then destroy them.
And destroy them.
And then plant them again.
That's life.
Yeah.
It's not, boy, okay.
Speaker: What do you, what's an
example of planting a seed that
you then destroy in your lifetime?
Speaker 2: Okay.
I just feel like it
doesn't really make sense.
Let me think about that.
I guess I, my firstborn.
Okay.
I haven't done this, but I've just,
here's like a hypothetical example
that comes to mind for me, like
maybe somewhere down the line, it
might be tempting for one or the other
of us to own some property that maybe
has literal, like land attached to it.
And you could be like, okay, that land
needs to be preserved for nature or
whatever, there's a natural environment
here and we have to keep it totally wild
because there's already wild animals that
live there, or maybe you want to turn
it into some arable land and you say, Oh
no, this land is only for business use.
Now it's, we're going to sell some
eggplants that we grow here or whatever.
This is very modern.
Okay.
Yes.
I feel like he's part of what I'm
getting is there's a little bit of.
Allowance for being not indulgent, but
to do the thing that is good for you.
So don't just say, Oh, I'm obligated
to leave everything the way it was
because that's how it was before.
And I, who am I to interrupt any of it?
There is like a, Hey, do you want
to, if you want to build a little.
sauna for yourself on the
property or whatever, because
that would be good for you.
You should go ahead and do it.
Marcus is
Speaker 6: such a mirror.
We're just, we just see whatever
we're currently thinking
about ourselves in this text.
Yeah.
Oh, that's so funny.
You're thinking about building
a little sauna at your cabin?
On my
Speaker 2: non existent property?
No.
Yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
And you're worried about
the disrupting nature?
That's funny.
Okay.
Okay.
So I think there's that angle.
Speaker 2: What's the mirror
that you're seeing in this entry?
Speaker: So my initial reaction
was actually the opposite.
I was thinking you actually don't,
I don't know anything about farming,
but if it's maybe you don't kill
grain when you collected stock,
like when you collect the wheat.
Speaker 2: It grows back after
Speaker: it just grows back.
And so that's a way of be gentle
to the world around you, which is
the exact opposite of what you're
ruthless with the things that you
Speaker 6: own.
Speaker 2: I don't know if
it's their job to serve you.
That's not exactly what I mean
either, but okay, how about this?
We both agree,
Speaker 3: that
Speaker 2: he, one thing he is saying
you should not do is Look out at a
field of wheat that you've grown and
be like, that wheat, yes, that wheat
should just continue to grow forever
Because it's so pretty or whatever, or
it should feed other people who are not.
Speaker 3: That's
Speaker 2: right.
I guess that's the main thing I'm taking.
from it regardless of if cutting down
the plant fully kills the plant or if
you have to yeah and then you have to
reseed or if it will just grow back
automatically i think yeah what i'm
getting is like life is about this
cycle of reaping and sowing or whatever.
Speaker: Yeah.
I guess the other thing I, the other thing
I saw in the mirror was just patience.
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker: I guess this
in contrast to foraging
Speaker 2: was
Speaker: the other interpretation
that, that makes sense to me.
But yeah, Marcus is a mirror for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I guess I'll offer one more just abstract
reading of it, which is, I think he's
also talking about the benefits of
work though, which I guess maybe is
what you mean by the foraging example.
That it's like an, another alternative
to this is to just be lazy and Yeah.
To do nothing.
Sure.
Is not to really live by this philosophy.
Sure.
Either or to just Yeah.
Go around with your handout.
Just hoping to be given something I see
is not really living this way either.
Yeah.
'cause you're not That's right.
You're not doing the
Speaker: That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
We'll never know.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Yeah.
That's an interesting one though.
I think you're right.
It's a little like the good ones of his.
It's a bit kaleidoscopic or whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Okay.
Number 41 again in quotes.
If I and my two children cannot move
the gods must have their reasons.
Speaker 3: Why am I
Speaker 2: two children
and I think the gods,
Speaker: okay.
I think he's being literal.
I think this is like one of the rare
instances where we actually, he's
actually talking about his two kids.
Okay.
I'm going to Google it.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Did he have two kids?
Do we know, can we find out how
many kids and how many of them
would have been alive at this age?
Speaker: Oh no, he had 13.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
That's what I thought.
Okay.
Speaker: He had 13.
Speaker 6: Jesus.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Were there, how many of them were
alive when he was, Whatever, it's
probably some of them died young, right?
Speaker: Five outlived their father.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Okay.
That's not a great
ratio, but yeah, I agree.
Not a great ratio, but also it doesn't
really what's going on in this quote.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what is he talking about?
We'll put a little bit of an asterisk
on the children, or I guess let's
just say it's at least possible
that he's talking figuratively here.
Okay.
Yeah.
Or yes.
Again, this is What is he referring to?
Okay.
Okay, let me Yeah, maybe, again, I think
if we think of the quotation marks as
being not from Marcus himself exactly,
but just more like from a rhetorical
guy he made up to make this statement.
Although I don't know why, what
purpose that guy is serving.
He 13 children, can I, whatever, anyway.
What does it mean to move the gods?
Yeah.
Okay.
That's what I, yes, I agree.
That seems like the crux of the thing.
I'll offer my best guess.
I'm reading this as like, the gods are the
one who determines the state of the world,
or at least the nature of the world.
So there's something that Marcus and
his two children don't like, and they
want to have be different in the world.
And I think there is a concept in a lot
of religions that if you ask nicely,
it's The Gods will listen to you.
Sure, that's true.
And grant you a benefit of some kind.
Yeah.
So I'm reading this as my
children and I pray and pray
for something to be different.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Un unclear what
that is and it doesn't happen.
What should we make?
What should we make of the
fact that it doesn't happen?
Let's interpret it as there's a
reason things are the way they are.
Speaker: Yeah.
Very mysterious about the number of
children, but otherwise, yes, sir.
Speaker 2: And there's
another huge mystery, which
is move the gods to do what?
Yeah.
What is it that we're praying for?
That's too much to ask for a time.
Yeah, I agree.
I guess what's frustrating
about this one is.
He gives us so few details in general,
and then he does just drop one detail
into this one, my two children, the
Speaker 5: number two, which
Speaker 2: yes, but then it
turns out that one is not true.
So what are we to make up the fact that
this guy who generally includes no detail
whatsoever includes one fake detail.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
But I, okay, philosophically, I do
like this one too, as a principle
for reasoning about the world.
Okay, this thing seems to not
want to change rather than
just being like that sucks.
The gods are jerks.
Yeah.
Could also say, why might it be
the case that this is the way that
it is and needs to be the way that
Speaker: it is.
This is the way to retain faith, right?
If you don't believe this, then Yeah.
You almost can't be religious.
So I, I'm sure it's a sentiment that has
stood the test of time for that reason.
Yeah, Marcus is the head of
the religion, state religion.
So I guess he needs to think
about things like this.
Speaker 2: Yep.
But it is curious.
Yeah.
Maybe.
So maybe that's why it's in quotes.
I wonder how much of this is like,
people have come to him during the
day and said interesting stuff to him.
And then he's just this tonight's
journal entries is just a fun list of
interesting things that people said
to me that maybe I'm polishing up to
make them sound a little bit better.
But here's like the wisdom of
the people who came to me today.
Speaker: That's an interesting idea.
Speaker 2: All right.
We have one more of these
guys that's in quotes.
And it's
as impenetrable as any of them.
42 in quotes for what is
just and good is on my side.
So it's not a full sentence.
Yep.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick with that
interpretation that I just offered, which
is I'm now imagining that these things in
quotes are things that were maybe said.
To Marcus by people he found interesting
or something like that because I think
Speaker 5: yeah,
Speaker 2: it's harder for me not to parse
this if it's Marcus himself saying it.
And if that is it, I don't know
why he needs quotes to do it.
Cause yeah, that quotes he's saying it.
So this is somebody else and their
thing is like justice and goodness.
That's me.
That's all that stuff is on my side.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This is basically how I felt
last week at the trademark trial.
Speaker 6: For what is
Speaker 2: just
Speaker 6: and
Speaker: good
Speaker 6: is
Speaker: on my side.
Speaker 2: I could have
just pulled this out.
We were going to get, we are going to
get, I think in a very fun celebratory
move, some mugs that say keeper and
some of the tax that this might've been
a nice slogan to put on those mugs.
Speaker 6: That's true.
Speaker 2: In addition to the
Speaker 6: Actually, this is
a good this would have been a
good like dash Marcus Aurelius.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess he's quoting
someone else, but that's fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I guess the only in terms of like
philosophical thing going on here.
I think the only thing that stands out
to me is that he's pointing out that
we naturally think this way, right?
I think that's part of why he's putting
it in quotes is he's distancing himself
a bit by saying like the natural way
to think is, oh yeah, whenever people
mentioned that justice and goodness,
you're like, yeah, me, that's me.
Yeah, I'm like that.
And I guess we're, he's giving us an
invitation here to really consider
how frequently that's actually true.
Speaker: That's very deep, Tom.
Yeah.
I wonder if that's what he's doing.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Like how whether
both sides believe this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
It just if everyone
thinks this way, what's.
What's the truth?
Speaker: Last one, Tom.
Okay,
Speaker 2: sure.
Yeah.
We have escaped quotation mode.
Speaker: Oh my goodness.
This
Speaker 2: one is this one straight from
the horse's mouth, not in quotation.
So I guess, yeah, we should interpret
this as I imagine Marcus like shouting
this aloud because it's clearly from him.
43.
No course of lamentation.
No hysterics.
Speaker 4: Oh,
Speaker 2: Yep.
Okay.
Thanks, Marcus.
Very stoic.
No, no reason to get upset.
Boy, if you told me that we'd already
read this exact entry four or five
times during the podcast, I would
have a hard time disagreeing with you.
For sure.
Speaker: No course of
lamentation, no hysterics.
Speaker 2: The only thing that's
fun for me that I can think of to
say here is that I think the word
hysteric, like that hysteric shares
a common root with like hysterectomy.
It's it's a, it's it's a word with
a gendered history that it was like
only applied to women effectively.
And it was like, wow.
I wonder what the original root
is, but yes, I, there, there
was this like a diagnosis much
later than Marcus of hysteria.
That was essentially a, just applied to
Speaker 5: wow.
Speaker 2: Women are crazy or whatever.
That's a good one, Tom.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
But I wonder if it had that sort of
gendered Meaning in Marcus's time.
There's a good chance.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: I do think it comes from some
kind of Latin root So I think there's a
chance that would but also yeah There's
it's a fair point that this is now being
translated into English and it's also
possible that Marcus was invoking a word
Not quite the same that we don't really
have a better analogy for them Yeah.
The word with that history.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's a good, it's a good place to wrap.
No chorus.
This is just what the thing to
keep in mind for the week, Tom.
Yeah.
Course you, no, no chorus of lamentation.
No, no hysterics.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I interpret it as it's a way we
can, to move forward from the
trial too, that you're describing.
Yeah.
It's like true.
Back to business.
No, back to business.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, no need to moan and moan about.
Yeah.
The unfair treatment or whatever,
just time to, the best thing to
do is just get focused again.
Speaker: That's right.
What's the great Gatsby line.
And so we sail on boats
against the currents.
The green light.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker: Something like that.
Speaker 2: I don't have the exact.
Yeah.
I know what you're talking about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Similar.
Yep.
All right.
Thanks Tom.
Yeah.
Nice.
Thanks guys.
See ya.
See ya.