SEO Is Not Dead: What Actually Works in an AI-Driven Search World | Jan Watermann - Pragmatic Business

🚀 Is SEO really dead — or just misunderstood in the age of AI?

In this episode of **Inside Marketing With MarketSurge**, host **Reed Hansen**, Chief Growth Officer at MarketSurge, sits down with **Jan Watermann** — SEO and content marketing expert, growth strategist, and co-founder of **Pragmatic Business**.

Jan has been behind **millions in organic growth** for marketers, consultants, and agencies, and is known for blending time-tested SEO fundamentals with a modern, AI-powered lens. In this conversation, we break down what SEO actually looks like in 2025 and beyond — factoring in Google’s evolving algorithms, AI-driven search tools like ChatGPT and Perplexity, and the growing importance of trust, relevance, and systems over shortcuts.

Jan also shares his unconventional journey — from leaving school early and moving across the world with almost nothing, to building scalable growth systems that help businesses escape referral-only growth and short-term gigs.

💡 In this episode, you’ll learn:
• Why SEO is not dead — and why it’s more important than ever
• How AI is changing how people search and consume information
• What modern SEO prioritizes instead of keyword stuffing
• Why trust, authority, and digital PR matter in AI-powered search
• How freelancers can transition into scalable, productized businesses
• The psychology behind content that ranks *and* converts
• Why systems beat hacks for long-term organic growth

If you’re a founder, marketer, consultant, or agency owner navigating SEO in an AI-driven world, this episode delivers clarity and practical insight you can actually apply.

👇 Connect with Jan & Pragmatic Business:
🔗 Pragmatic Business: [https://pragmaticbusiness.com](https://pragmaticbusiness.com)

📍 About the Show
Welcome to **Inside Marketing With MarketSurge** — your front-row seat to the boldest ideas, real-world strategies, and unfiltered conversations shaping modern marketing.

Hosted by **Reed Hansen**, a digital marketing veteran who’s helped scale startups to Fortune 500 brands, this podcast breaks down what’s *actually working* in marketing today — without the fluff.

📈 At MarketSurge, we help you turn tools into systems — and systems into growth.
If you want automation that feels personal and performs like a team of 10, you’re in the right place.

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Because your next breakthrough shouldn’t be a guess. 🚀

Creators and Guests

Host

Reed Hansen

Reed Hansen is a seasoned digital marketing executive with a proven track record of driving business growth through innovative strategies. As the Chief Growth Officer at MarketSurge, he focuses on leveraging AI-powered marketing tools to help businesses scale efficiently. Reed's expertise spans from leading startups to Fortune 500 companies, making him a recognized authority in the digital marketing space. His unique ability to combine data-driven insights with creative solutions has been instrumental in achieving remarkable sales growth for his clients. ​

What is Inside Marketing with MarketSurge?

Welcome to Inside Marketing with MarketSurge — your front-row seat to the boldest business insights, marketing breakthroughs, and entrepreneurial real talk.

Hosted by Reed Hansen, Chief Growth Officer at MarketSurge and a digital marketing veteran who's helped scale everything from scrappy startups to Fortune 500 giants, this podcast dives deep into what’s really moving the needle in today’s marketing world. Find us at Marketsurge.io

Each week, we’ll break down the latest marketing and business news (minus the fluff), explore tech trends you actually need to know, and feature unfiltered conversations with the most interesting minds in entrepreneurship and marketing.

Whether you're a founder, a marketer, or just a curious hustler looking to level up, this is where growth happens—loudly, smartly, and with just the right amount of sass.

Subscribe, tune in, and let’s scale something legendary. 🚀

Speaker: Welcome to Inside
Marketing With Market Surge.

Your front row seat to the
boldest ideas and smartest

strategies in the marketing game.

Your host is Reed Hansen, chief
Growth Officer at Market Surge.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Welcome back
to Inside Marketing with Market Surge.

I'm joined by somebody today who's
redefining what it means to grow

organically in an AI driven world.

Our guest today is Jan Waterman,
SEO, and content marketing expert,

growth strategist and co-founder of
Pragmatic Business, where he helps

digital marketers and small companies
scale beyond short-term gigs and

build systems that actually compound.

has been behind millions in organic
growth, and what I love most

about his work is how he blends
traditional SEO discipline with

a futuristic AI powered lens.

Talking about Google's innovations,
chat, GBTs innovations and perplexity.

We're going to dig into what SEO
looks like in 2025 and how, Jan

has taken pragmatic business into
a company that has really been

a force for good for many, many.

its clients' businesses.

Thanks for joining us, Jan.

Jan Watermann: Yeah.

Thanks a lot for having me here, Reid.

It's a pleasure.

I actually listened to a few of your
previous episodes and really like them.

I like the format.

I think you're doing a great job here.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
No, I really appreciate that.

Well, Jan, tell us a little bit about
how you got to where you are now and

also point out too that you are located
in Panama City Panama right now.

Is that right?

Jan Watermann: Yeah, that's correct.

And how I ended up here is
a long story to be honest.

But let's let's get started.

Definitely not a traditional way.

So back when I was in school, I realized
there was something different about me.

Wasn't really interested in a
traditional way, you know, uh,

finish up school, uh, then go ahead
and study, find a corporate job.

That just wasn't me.

My stomach hurt.

Just imagining that.

And I decided when I was, uh, still under
age, I believe I was 17 years old, um,

decided To leave school at that point.

That was back in middle school.

And, um, decided to move abroad
basically booked a one-way ticket

to New Zealand because that
was literally the furthest way.

I could go from Germany back then.

It's literally on the other side of the
world as there's a web app that shows you

the, I believe it's called antidote, but
I'm not exactly sure what's exactly on

the other side, knows New Zealand and,
uh, my, you know, Slightly childish mind

thought, okay, let's go to New Zealand.

Let's escape to New Zealand.

Um, because I was so far away and
obviously I wasn't prepared at all, right?

No savings barely any skill.

so I booked this one way ticket,
had it there, and realized,

oh damn, life is expensive.

And, uh, really takes some effort
to, you know, To survive even.

And, uh, so I was looking for jobs,
tried to make money as fast as I

could, and, uh, ended up literally
feeding chickens on a farm.

That was one of my first jobs.

Did some other crazy stuff, Palm pruning
also furniture moving, things I would

not recommend, um, as a career choice.

Um, but yeah, it had to be
done and that's what I did.

And, um, yeah, basically.

It sucked, right?

But at the same time, I said to myself
that I didn't want to go back to Germany,

um, and then rejoin this traditional
career path because theism wasn't for me.

Uh, so I looked at ways to make
money online and, um, just ask

myself, what are my skills?

What can I do to monetize them?

And, um, yeah, when you just
coming out of school or not even

when you're literally you know.

exiting early.

Um, you don't have many, many hard skills.

So I looked at what was available design.

Yeah, not at all.

Because I was, I was
really bad in art classes.

I'm also not good in maths, so
programming wasn't good for me.

And essentially.

Yeah, the lowest hanging fruit
was something that had to do with

writing because, um, my German
skills were, were pretty good.

So I, I started working as a copywriter.

It was literally my first online job.

I tried to acquire clients, uh,
which was a challenge on its own.

If you don't have any references,
but, uh, you know, volume

makes success in that case.

So literally reach out
to hundreds of people.

And, um, through copywriting
and then I then got into,

into other marketing fields.

I was really fascinated by psychology,
the psychology behind copywriting, landing

page copy, and these kind of things.

And, uh, yeah, that really helped me level
up into these other fields of marketing.

And, uh, yeah, now I ended up,
being SEO consultant, SEO expert.

Um, and yeah, how I got
there was kind of random.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah, well,
I mean that's, that's very unusual.

you know, you really embarked
on quite an adventure.

And I think that's really
impressive that you've arrived here.

I think there's some takeaways too.

now, first of all, when you're.

confronted with, you know, you're
in a foreign country, maybe that's

not your native language, and you
have, limited skillset and you're

trying different things you know,
how does, do you think that's

instructive about what kind of skills a
professional can teach him or herself?

do you think that that's a
doable task for most people?

That they could pick up
skills teaching themselves?

Jan Watermann: I think so.

Totally.

And honestly, just start by
looking at what you like.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Hmm.

Jan Watermann: Right.

And I think that's how you
easily find a niche, that you

can also make work profitably.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Jan Watermann: So me, I was fascinated as
I explained, uh, I was fascinated about

psychology, um, and I was good in writing.

Um, so becoming a copywriter was
the most natural thing to do for me.

Um, and once I made that decision,
I then asked myself how to monetize

that skill and how to acquire clients.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

now from where you stand today, would
you have done anything differently?

Like do you wish you had, made
different choices or, I mean, it

sounds like you're doing very well.

Jan Watermann: Yeah.

Not at all.

I think I made just the right choices.

Took a lot of risk really early, right?

Because, uh, leaving school
without any savings, I

literally had, uh, about $3,000.

Converted from Euros on
my, uh, bank account.

Back then when I moved abroad, in New
Zealand, that it's a very expensive

country that barely lasts for two weeks,
mostly, um, maybe a month you can make

work if you live a simple lifestyle.

But yeah, it was a lot of risk early,
but definitely paid off in the long run.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Wow.

okay, so let's talk a
little bit about your.

One of your fields of expertise.

SEO

Jan Watermann: Mm-hmm.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
I love the topic.

I think it's really interesting.

In some ways it's kind of a game.

Some ways it's you know, a
science, some ways it's an art,

you know, and but your tagline on
LinkedIn says think SEO is dead.

Question mark.

So I wanted to start there.

think SEO is dead or do you think that
we are in a process of adjusting to a new

you know, a new code, like a new process?

Jan Watermann: Definitely
don't believe SEO is dead.

Quite the opposite.

I believe SEO is more
relevant than ever right now.

It's just that the methods to
make SEO work have changed.

So what's, most relevant now
is, making content as relevant

as possible to the audience.

I think that's what it comes down
to, if you would simplify it.

So it has some sort of.

Art character.

I get that.

Because often it can't be
explained in a scientific way.

What makes things really relevant.

I just have to logically ask
yourself, okay, what is this

reader, actually looking for?

What is the information they wanna read?

And then, just try to provide
it as efficient as possible.

And that's what, makes
content rank nowadays.

Right.

Um, there are also other factors,
especially if you think about,

artificial intelligence tools like
GPT per complexity, cloud, et cetera,

in order to rank successfully there,
I think what's, really relevant is

digital pr, you know, having as much
trust as possible, telling the machine

basically that your trusted source.

So that's what has shifted quite
a bit in the past, few years.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Well, okay, so I'd love to build on this,
your interest in psychology as well.

Jan Watermann: Mm-hmm.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: So,
you know, as you mentioned, you

know, that's one of the, the.

Well, and now tell us about like,
you know, obviously there's a

lot that has been changing in
our world in the last five years.

What are some of the biggest
mindset, or psychological shift?

That SEO marketers need to
account for in what they're doing.

And so because there's two sides
of that, there's, you know, how

have, have the culture, how people's
own psychology shifted, but how

do we need to adapt SEO marketers.

You covered that a little bit.

I hope I'm not too confusing with that

Jan Watermann: Yeah, kind of, um,
if I, said your, question correctly,

um, I think what it comes down to
is, not being stuck to old systems

that might not work anymore, right?

and going straight by the book.

That's probably not needed anymore.

Don't over optimize keywords for example's
You know, if you wanna go into detail

a little bit, that's one thing that I
would say is irrelevant nowadays, right?

make sure there are good keywords
included on the page, here and there.

that the engine that the machine
understands, that it's a relevant

piece of content for the audience.

But besides that, don't
get into it too much.

It's, really not necessary,
these kind of things.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

no, that's perfect.

you know, it's funny that AI
has a direct impact on SEO.

we have to account for a new search
pattern, but it also seems like

the way people are using AI to
answer questions and do research.

shifts the way, people
think in their heads.

I think it has two big
effects on the SEO world.

do you find that you are, spending
a lot of time with AI automations,

AI processes to, help your clients
now, with their SEO processes.

Jan Watermann: Me
personally, not to be honest.

I mean, it's, it's as
simple as it has been.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: I,

Jan Watermann: Relevance is key.

So, what I'm in charge of is,
finding topics that are both

relevant to the audience, but
also as transactional as possible.

And then briefing these topics
into the client's, content roadmap.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Jan Watermann: And that's
what works in the long run.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah,
no, that makes a lot of sense.

So let's talk a little bit
about pragmatic business and,

Jan Watermann: Yeah.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: I,
you know, I like the name.

I think it's very descriptive.

I know you do a lot of work helping
businesses, agencies move past

referral based growth, for instance.

Why, why do you think a lot of companies
struggle with that particular for growth?

Jan Watermann: Yeah,
that's a good question.

So what we see.

Regularly is that people who are,
freelancing, specifically that they

reach a certain barrier and that they
really struggle to become entrepreneurs.

just because these are two different
things, you know, being a freelancer

is essentially selling your time,
and receiving money in return, right?

but then when it comes to
building a business, there's so

much more variables involved.

You have to look at, Systemizing
your fulfillment first of all.

Right?

Because you don't want to be the person
doing all the work in your business.

You wanna work on the business else.

It's not a structure that
can grow independently.

So that's probably one
of the main things here.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Okay.

Let's talk a little bit about
like productizing a service.

You know, so if you're working with
agencies what does that actually entail?

Do you you know, like how do
you take something that you're

doing that maybe you're good at?

You know, you are an SEO marketer.

How do you turn that into a product?

Jan Watermann: often a deliverables
attached to it, you know, uh, for

example, uh, if you're a writer.

Just as an example because it's
so easy to imagine, uh, you might

have to write a certain amount of
articles per day or per week, right?

And you can just, uh, take these
deliverables, uh, find someone to,

you know, fulfill them for you, and
then get that systemized, right?

And sell that as a subscription, as a
recurring subscription, for example.

And that's what it comes
down to in my opinion.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
No, that makes sense.

do you have any examples of
clients that have done that well?

Or even your own, personal journey?

Like, it's hard, you know, you talk
about, deliverables It's a lot, you know,

there's a lot of custom work in there.

There's a lot of custom,
requests in there.

Jan Watermann: Mm-hmm.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: How have you
seen that successfully implemented?

Jan Watermann: Yeah.

Really good question, Reid.

A good example is Darcy.

Darcy Kmu has been on the show,
uh, previously, I believe.

Basically, uh, when Darcy first
approached us Robert and I were

running pragmatic business together.

He approached us initially and
we became a customer of his.

He was essentially doing link
building for us manually himself.

Um, and then the both of us asked him.

If he had any other ambitions, you know,
in order to maybe build an agency, not be

the person doing the fulfillment anymore.

And it turns out that we
literally, hit a pain point there.

Darcy, was not really satisfied
with his situation back then.

he was a very ambitious person,
always thinking outside the

box and always eager to grow.

So we ended up building
rep links together.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Awesome.

Jan Watermann: Robert and I
were the consultant in there.

Darcy was in charge of the
fulfillment, obviously the PR expert.

And without him that
would've not been possible.

So we essentially, try to, look at, all
the customer requests that he had coming

in at first, And try to simplify them, put
them into patterns and see what kind of

requests are coming in more frequently.

it turned out that most of the clients
are requesting his service, those who

are people looking for link building.

Link building wasn't always
clear beforehand, because

he did all sorts of things.

but yeah, link building,
that's what it comes down to.

so we developed packages.

And then started selling them to these
clients and, looked at ways to, systemize

the fulfillment and get that sorted.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

Jan Watermann: And yeah,
the rest is history.

Since then, uh, Darcy has
been doing incredibly well.

His company has I believe tripled.

Um, he's on a, good path to
success, very satisfied as well.

And, uh, I enjoy working with
him and I hope he does too.

Uh, I think so.

At least.

So yeah, it's, been a great project.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Awesome.

Well, this will turn into a
testimonial for Relinks because I

am also a client and I've been, I
became a client after he came on the

podcast, and he does tremendous work.

I've been so happy with, with that
and the, you know, in particular,

you know, like making that.

Deliverable, very clear was, I think in
his, his field is, is quite challenging

because it, it involves a lot of
pitching and, and waiting for acceptance.

but he, he's, that's a great example.

now I know you also, you know, a part
of what you do at Pragmatic Business,

you have your open network meetings, and
you're able to generate a lot of a lot of

volume actually in collaborative sales.

What inspired you to start that
networking group and, and how, how

have you been so effective in, in like,
transactional, transactional networking?

Jan Watermann: Yeah, it's a
really, really good question again.

So basically started with an idea that
Robert and I had, um, and, we asked

ourselves, okay, What could be a good
lead channel for pragmatic business?

I think that was the
initial thought, right?

So we were looking at options and
you know, there are ways to do it.

You can start running ads, you can
start, doing cold outreach, et cetera.

But I think in order to become
relevant nowadays, especially,

what you gotta do is, provide value
actually up first in order to be

top of mind, within your audience.

Um, and I think.

The network meeting is one way to do that.

So we are bringing like-minded
professionals together who then, you know,

meet, collaborate, and, synergies built.

And, you know, businesses form, and
that has been incredibly valuable for

the people attending these meetings.

In fact, I believe almost six figures
in, transaction volume has happened.

so business is actually happening there.

And obviously people coming to these
meetings getting something in return.

If they're looking for growth
consultants, they know where to find them.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Yeah.

That's amazing.

Now,

you know, you're doing so many things
and you have so many projects going.

How do you maintain the energy and
motivation to keep all of these you

know, your whole portfolio running?

Jan Watermann: I think that it's probably
some A DHD or other disease I might have.

It just, it's just my personality.

I get bored with things easily and
I like to switch between tasks.

That's just how my brain works.

I have no idea why that is.

not been to a.

Psychologist maybe has something to do
with a DHD, maybe it's some other reason.

but that's just me.

That's just how I work.

And, that's what excites
me, on a daily basis.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Well, that's,

Jan Watermann: So also it's, if you
look at my portfolio, if you look at

my LinkedIn, it's not even complete.

I do all sorts of things to be honest.

Um, I mean, there are a few
things that I specialize in.

Those are my bread and
butter, tasks, right?

the things I earn my income with.

But then besides that, I have
various other projects going on.

also hosting a podcast
myself, co-hosting actually.

Quite a successful one.

So it really varies, but, uh, yeah,
that's what keeps my day exciting.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
that's fantastic.

couple final questions.

If you had to delete all of the marketing
tools you use like software, et cetera,

Jan Watermann: Mm-hmm.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: what
is one that you could only

keep one, what would you keep?

Jan Watermann: Oh, that's a good question.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
And I won't hold you to

Jan Watermann: possibly Slack, just
because the communication within

the team is super important and,
uh, that's just, uh, the easiest

way to get in touch with people.

Um, but if it's if Slack is there then
I would probably look at, uh, yeah,

SEO software, H refs, for example.

That's my go-to tool there.

And, uh, yeah, Obviously needed
to provide high level consulting

of what I currently do as well.

And without, it wouldn't be possible.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: Wow.

Okay.

Well that's good now.

But your last question, what is, what
do you see in the next year, 2026?

You know, we're nearing the end of 2025.

What do you think 2026 is going
to be like for, for yourself

and for pragmatic business?

You know, do you have plans?

Do you have any predictions?

Jan Watermann: Hopefully
incredibly successful.

That's all I'm gonna say.

Um, we're very ambitious people,
both Robert and I, and also, um,

yeah, I'm super, ambitious with
the projects that I run personally.

So we do wanna double or
triple possibly our business.

that's what we're looking at.

And, uh, regarding networking event yeah,
it would be great to scale that to maybe.

1, 2, 3 million in transaction
volume that has happened between

the participants by mid next year.

I think that's realistic as well

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge: that's

Jan Watermann: because we just
started tracking that figure.

And honestly, I was surprised myself,
and I'm pretty sure that a lot of

the revenue that's being generated
isn't reported back to us as well.

'Cause that's something that
we will always stumble upon.

people doing business with each
other and not telling us, not

ideal because we obviously wanna
know how effective the event was.

in order to make sure only, high
quality people attend, and to

increase the value for everyone.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
That's fantastic.

Well, I am, really impressed by
your journey and where you are and

the things that you are able to do.

your energy is quite inspiring.

So thank you so much for joining
us and sharing, some wisdom.

And, I think just kind of inspiring
us, you know, that there are

things that can be learned.

adventures that we can
have and still thrive.

So thank you so much for joining us, Jan.

Jan Watermann: Yeah.

Absolutely.

thanks a lot for having me, Reid.

It's been a pleasure.

gonna be listening to this episode.

Yeah, I'm excited about it.

Reed Hansen, MarketSurge:
Well thanks so much.

Jan Watermann: Awesome.

Thank.

Speaker 2: Want to stay ahead of what's
actually working in marketing right now.

Head over to Market surge.io

and see how we're helping businesses
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That's market surge.io

because your next breakthrough
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