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Tyson Popplestone is a Comedian from Melbourne Australia. Join him for a brand new interview each week.
Tyson (00:00.967)
And we are, we're good. We're live. Awesome. Cal, I, uh, I was saying to my wife this morning that this is one of the podcasts that I've, I've been very excited to meet you. I've been a fan of the art of interviewing and storytelling for as long as I can remember in like a variety of forms. I actually started out as a youth pastor. I've moved into standup comedy. My dad worked in media and I was trying to navigate why it was that I was so fascinated by people like yourself, people like Larry King.
And then over the course of the last couple of weeks, I've started to go really deep down the rabbit hole, listening to a number of your podcasts and hearing your original podcast yesterday with Tim Ferriss. And I think I just appreciate the art of a good story. And it's amazing how many times in the interview with Tim that you just had me on the edge of your seat with a couple of stories and I thought, what a way to start the conversation by asking.
What is it that a good storyteller is actually doing well? Because there's plenty of conversations I get stuck in where I go, oh my gosh, like, please let me see the finish line to this chat very soon.
cal (01:10.442)
Well, a great story makes people lean in.
and want to hear what comes next. Here's a story for you. It was a person, a woman, who was a listener of my podcast. And she had to leave her country and things were going very difficult for her. She had a child and
She basically decided to commit suicide.
And she plotted it out. She knew when she was going to do it. She knew how she was going to do it and had to do with water and electricity. And, and she was going to do it at a time where nobody was around. And my podcast happened to be on as she was preparing for this moment. And I was in the middle of a story at the time that.
She thought she was going to do it. And she couldn't do it because she had to hear what the end of the story was like. And she emailed me and told me that. And it really answers the question. If you keep people leaning in to find out what happens, it's a good story.
Tyson (02:47.943)
It's true, it's true, but I mean, it's so interesting hearing you say that, and it's so interesting because I know what you're saying is accurate. And I've been in the midst of those good stories where I'm leaning in and I can't wait to see the finish line or I can't wait to see the outcome. And yet it seems that some people, despite spending so much time, myself included on many occasions, it's not like a one size fits all, you've got it, you've mastered it. It's...
The more I hear you speak, the more I realise, oh, this is something that you can refine. This is something you can improve. This is something that there's skills that you can delve into, but there's obviously a natural level of talent. I meet some people and I go, oh, you're a born storyteller. You live for this. And there's certain things within that where I go, okay, but I don't know consciously exactly what it is you're doing that's making people lean in, because I'm leaning in and I'm not sure why.
cal (03:41.177)
Well, you're going into stand-up comedy, correct?
Tyson (03:46.359)
Yeah, yeah, I've been doing it now for five years.
cal (03:47.186)
It's okay. So you're not going into it. You're deeply rooted in it. And you've got to be on stage looking out at the crowd, seeing how they're taking the buildup in to your punchline.
cal (04:10.55)
And there's so many things that go into that. I'll bet you that you could probably write a book about how to reach the punchline from the start of the story, because I've read books by comedians who talk about it. And it's a matter of knowing.
where the end is, that's important for me, because if you don't know where your punch line is, you could get lost pretty easy. And so you're pretty much on sort of a hero's journey from start to finish, and there are going to be obstacles that come up. There's going to be funny encounters. There's going to be obstacles.
There's going to be sad occurrences and it's all building toward a finale. And then you got to deliver when the finale comes because people are investing in it and when you're seeing them lean forward, you're seeing that investment. They're giving you their attention. They're giving you their time. And
You've got to deliver like everything that you promised or that they hope for.
Tyson (05:47.516)
Yeah, I mean, I could also write a story about trying to get to the end of that joke and realising that the build up was more exciting than the punchline and having to look at the audience's face where they've realised that, okay, it's got potential, but it's not there yet. He's got some work to do this guy.
cal (05:56.012)
Oh man!
cal (06:04.01)
Well, how long has it taken you? Think of a story you've told that builds up to a joke or like powerful bit of humor at the end. How long has it taken you to master that? Because I can almost guarantee you, when you did it the first time, you might've actually gotten a really good reaction, but then...
You just keep doing it again and again, and you may veer off in a direction and get a bigger laugh that was unexpected. And then all of a sudden that becomes a part of it. And maybe something wasn't working so well, so you took it out. Maybe you were talking about it with somebody at the bar afterward and they had a funny line.
that you say, I take that and you throw that in. And so it, it's a living and breathing organism, a story. It's not necessarily something that was put in stone and has to be told the same way every time. I remember talking to Bruce Springsteen about when he walks out on a concert stage and what.
is going through his mind and his epiphany was, I don't want this to be like any other performance I ever gave. I want there to be something special about this. So even though he may be singing the same words, there may be a little different musical arrangement or
maybe something about the place or something he sees out in the crowd stirs a memory in it, somehow enters his performance. And that's also the beauty of storytelling. It can grow and take you to new places based on some serendipity of the moment.
cal (08:19.47)
And I think for a comedian, that's really important because if you can keep compounding the humor, then you really got a winner.
Tyson (08:31.867)
Yeah, I like that. I like that philosophy of Springsteen. I don't know, it doesn't matter whether you're in the comedy world or whether you're in the storytelling world, whether you're in the church world. You can sense when it's just to talk now, can't you? You can sense when it's the right words, but the heart's not in it. There's something about the way people present when they've done it a thousand times that you go, okay, I can see you know exactly where you're going and you're saying the right thing in the right tone at the right moment.
But then you have a person like a Springsteen or a, I don't know, I mean, there's endless examples. People, they're in whatever it is that they're doing a little bit. Louis CK talks about when he's on stage, he goes, when I'm telling a joke, I'm not thinking about the words to the joke, I'm thinking about me being in the situation of where the joke took place. He goes, if I'm talking about a dog, I'm there, I'm standing, I'm thinking about that, I'm looking at the dog. And I go, well, that...
That makes sense because there's something about that setup where you listen to it and you go, oh, this is, even though it's the thousandth time you've done it, it's the first time you've done it, or it may as well be.
cal (09:41.478)
Yeah, it reminded me of a question I asked the country singer Merle Haggard, who had a great song. I think it was back in the sixties called Mama Tried. I was about a guy who's like in jail and he's singing Mama Tried. Didn't work out too well, but Mama Tried. And a lot of people covered the song and I asked him like, why is it just
seems different when you're singing that song as opposed to everybody else. And he said, everybody else is singing the words. I'm living them. And, and there you go. You have to be living the story when you, when you're telling it and maybe even living the joke.
or the comedy when you're telling it or else it's gonna come off as a scripted performance.
Tyson (10:49.351)
I didn't know how many different verses there were to Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah until I recently watched a documentary about the song. And so I went on a bit of a hunt and went digging for as many verses as I possibly could. And I put him in the category of people who, didn't matter whether it was 58 or 78, every time I heard him do that song, he seemed to have that spring scene factor where you go, this is...
Not only because it was partly new, it was slightly different to the last time we heard it, but there was something in the way he was saying the words where you can't, like for me, I mean, I'm a fairly passionate person, but it's very difficult, I think, to make me get upset or teary during music. That's one song that every time I listen to it, I go, all right, make sure there's not many people around because it triggers something. And it doesn't matter which version of it I listen to.
I can feel that little shortness of breath coming in just before you're about to make a fool of yourself with the tears. And I go, okay, what mood am I by myself? Can I turn it up or should I change the channel? And yeah, it's beautiful when you can tap into that. I don't know if that's something you've had to navigate because obviously, like your story is an interesting one that you started on the opposite seat. You were doing the digging, you were trying to hear the stories, you were trying to uncover the stories and unpack the stories and...
I don't know if anyone in the world's done it to the same level of you, with the exception of maybe people like Larry King and a couple of just old school rodeo hosts now. I mean, we've got a couple of independent media hosts who are catching up, but time alone suggests they've got some work to do to get to the level that you're at. But the game of asking the questions to unpack the story seems very different to telling the story, and yet you seem to have woven the two skills together so well.
cal (12:39.646)
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because I became very close with Larry King toward the end of his life. I had breakfast with him almost every day for 12 years. And I actually learned to speak by watching him speak. And I helped him write his Soup to Nuts autobiography right before he retired.
And when he retired, he went on sort of a storytelling tour and did shows in Las Vegas and different places. It was kind of like an off-Broadway show. It really could have been on Broadway and probably would have been most appreciated there. But he never really had the time to make this show.
his ultimate priority. And I saw the two different sides of him, because when he told stories about himself, he was the character in his childhood getting into crazy situations that just had you laughing hysterically.
And that was very different from the Larry King who was interviewing Ronald Reagan about what it was like to be shot in the assassination attempt. And it was almost like two different sides of him. And the side of him that told stories about himself was the comedian side.
And he would say, if I didn't go into radio and then television, I would have been, or I would have tried to be a comedian. Now, the other side, when you saw him on CNN every night, you did you very rarely saw that side. He would ask.
cal (14:55.618)
very direct questions, often like one sentence at a time, and allow whoever, who he was interviewing to either answer or build up a story. And so I never really thought of this until you mentioned it, but maybe part of what I do came from listening to the two sides of Larry.
Because when I was helping him write his book, he would take me into CNN with him, and I would be sitting right off the corner of where he was doing the interviewing. So I was almost next to him, although I couldn't see it on the camera. I watched the difference between that Larry and Larry, who would come into breakfast, and when guests would come,
he would just regale an audience of escapades from when he was 17 years old or 13. And there's something about being able to own both sides of that record, that old vinyl, and be able to flip from A to B that
Now that I'm thinking about it is, is very cool because maybe a lot of people don't have that. Maybe there are people who can get up and tell the story, but couldn't ask the question to bring out somebody else's story and vice versa.
Tyson (16:45.061)
Yeah. How did you and Larry become friends?
cal (16:48.574)
Well, what happened was I'm doing this column called What I've Learned for Esquire magazine. And it basically was interviewing the icons who shaped the last 75 years of world history. And asking them questions to find out the wisdom they accumulated in their lives. And so I went out to interview Larry and the interview went over two days.
And this is for literally two pages in the magazine. One was full page photo. The other was his wisdom, which basically turned into one story about a horse race that happened when he was going broke. And he basically took all the money and he went down to the race track and was down to, he had saved.
He got it down to like $2. But there was this one horse named Lady Forley that he, he looked at and he said, you know, this, this horse won in more or less the same company, but like the odds are really against him. Like I don't understand it. And people around them are saying, ah, there's no way that this horse is going to win. And so Larry not only bets his horse to win, but he bets that the horse.
is going to be followed by two other horses in a row. And he like, he bets it in every possible way to win, come in second, come in third to be the winner. And this horse is going to be second. This was going to be third. And he's down to like $2 and the horses break. And I should pause the story here to explain
Tyson (18:25.703)
Thank you.
cal (18:43.862)
that as he's watching this race, he's dressed in one of these old leisure suits, which have like no pockets. Okay. That's important for the story. And he's left his car with the valet who knows him over the years. It's just, he had more money in the past. He always tipped the valet. So I think he saved like $2 for the valet.
just so he wouldn't lose face if everything went backward. And the horses leave the gate and he is literally down to nothing. Not only is he down to nothing, but he's got no cigarettes left and he smoked like three packs a day. So he, he's got nothing and his daughter's child support is due. His rent is due.
He's down to nothing. And race goes set off and Lady Forley breaks out to the lead. The horse that he said was going to come in second, close behind, horse that he said was going to come in third is behind, is third. And they race around the track in exactly that order. And he wins like every bet that he's made.
Tyson (20:09.051)
I'm going to go to bed.
cal (20:11.198)
and he's got like thousands of dollars, except when he goes to pick up the money, it's all in cash and he's got no pockets. So he basically has got this money like stuffed under his shirt and he immediately goes back out to the car. He tips a valet like 100 bucks.
And he is halfway in shock and he gets in his car and he drives over to the old football stadium in Miami. And just lets the money flow out and he stops, he counts it all, it's thousands of dollars. And he's able to buy like.
40 cartons of cigarettes, which he puts in a cabinet. I was able to pay his month, his rent months ahead. He's able to pay all his child support for months. And it's just one of those stories that just gives everybody who's ever been down on their luck, like a sense of hope.
So that was a story that actually appeared in the magazine. And it's like he had given me wisdom on a million other things, but basically just zoned in on this one story. And so of course, Larry always remembered it. And years later, like five years later, I didn't even know this, but it turned out that we both had the same literary agent. And...
In passing, the literary agent said to me, you know, I'm going to be doing a book with Larry King. And I said, Larry King, I think I got all these notes from this interview that we did years ago. I could write a proposal right now. And he said, let me call Larry. And Larry remembered and said, yeah, that would be great. And so we met again. And he said, come on out to Los Angeles.
cal (22:35.534)
meet me at like 845, Nate and Al's deli, where he had breakfast every morning with his childhood friends. And I sat at the table and never left at least for 12 years. There were of course days where he was traveling where I was traveling, but I was...
more than a regular at the table. After a while, some of his friends started to get strokes and pass away. And so it actually put me in a position where I started to bring in people to fill out the table. And there were always a lot of guests who came by, but that's how it happened and where it went. And along the way,
That's where I was just watching him tell stories day after day after day. And what happened then, like I got to know him, he was at a point like one of my best friends and vice versa. And I knew him inside and out.
And so he was asked to speak on a cruise ship. And he said yes, and I knew he wasn't going because he hated water. I mean, he didn't he would get in a shower and he'd be out in like eight seconds. He didn't like water. He didn't see him swimming. I think he had like an.
Tyson (24:06.791)
Thank you.
Tyson (24:12.711)
Thanks for watching!
Thank you.
cal (24:20.466)
a time when he was a kid, he might've like gone out and got caught in a riptide and just had a terrible experience and just never liked water after that. And so when I hear that he's said, yeah, I'm going to go and do this talk on a cruise, I know he ain't going. And the thing about Larry was he couldn't say no.
If five people in a week asked him, can you help us out at this event? We need a speaker. We need an emcee. He would he would just say yes. And then Wednesday afternoon would come and five people be expecting him there that night and somebody would have to do the dirty work and say, oh, I'm so sorry. But he just could not say.
No, he wanted everybody who met him to be happy. So I'm, I'm listening to this and I know he's not going to go to the cruise. And so as the cruise is approaching, they come back to him and at this point I was getting pretty good at cutting people off and letting them know it is, it's just not going to happen.
Tyson (25:31.383)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
cal (25:49.598)
Sorry. And I was asked to replace him. And I didn't have a television name. I was a writer for decades for Esquire magazine, but very different. And in fact, my interviews.
didn't have a word, there weren't questions and answers where it's Cal's interviewing somebody. All you saw was the answers of the subject. So I was like invisible, even though at the top it said, interviewed by Cal Fussman, people didn't see my face, they didn't see my questions, all they saw was the answers. So I was in no way a celebrity, but I had interviewed hundreds of people.
that were on the same level of fame as Larry. So he asked me to go and I said, okay, and I went down and I gave this speech, it was marketed very cleverly. It was marketed as like, basically, like come here about the secrets of interviewing with Mikhail Gorbachev and Donald Trump and Mom and Ollie as if they were, as if you're going to see them.
was really me talking about what it's like to interview these people. But and so I've never really given a talk like this. It's slated for more than an hour.
Tyson (27:11.719)
Thank you.
cal (27:24.93)
And the word got out about this and the room is getting packed to the point where every seat is taken. And that like there literally were billionaires sitting in the aisle and moving to the front. There's like a line of people out the door, which of course attracts more people. And then they just said, no, it is like no more room. It's a fire hazard.
Tyson (27:39.141)
Thank you.
cal (27:53.406)
And I went out and I just started talking. And it was almost like I was channeling Larry in that show that he did after he retired, where he was just getting up and telling these stories. And afterwards, there was a standing ovation and a long line of people to greet me. And the first guy that comes up to me says, how long you been doing this?
I said about an hour and 15 minutes.
Tyson (28:32.981)
That's so good. So they just assumed you'd been at it for decades.
cal (28:38.322)
Yeah, and it was inside me and maybe for that long, but Larry pulled it out of me. And I don't even think he knew that he was pulling it out of me, he was just showing me how to pull it out of myself. And then later on, he actually took the time to like,
have a show, we called it Breakfast with Larry, and he put me in the center, and then Larry would be on one side of me, and the guest would be on the other, and he basically put me in the position of being center stage, and even learning how to read off the teleprompter, and he would offer little tips when a guest would come.
after having written a book, this is the way you hold the book. Just like you do it strong. And it's really a beautiful thing to, you know, have a mentor in his 80s.
was in my 50s. And I think back on now I could only smile as so blessed by the experience.
Tyson (30:07.107)
It's a, I've been in the experience a few times where I've met someone that I've idolized for a long time and the first conversation is very scary. I feel like I'm, I'm not sure. I don't know how to explain it. I'm sure you've been there maybe more than anyone in the history of humanity, meeting someone that you've seen on a big screen and perhaps at least in the early phases being a little scared or daunted by the task ahead of you. And it's
so interesting because I've also had the experience of getting to know those people better than I originally did and watching that fear of who they are and the pedestal that I've had them on kind of, not collapse, but just become less of an issue. And so with a person like Larry, it sounds like you've lived that experience. Was there a particular point in time where you started to realize, oh, okay, this isn't just Larry King from the TV, this is a...
a friend of mine and how did that change the dynamic of the relationship with you two?
cal (31:05.354)
You know, there was one moment that I recall, I think back on this occasionally, when I showed up in Los Angeles to help him write his book, he had this huge scrapbook with pictures of him with all the icons he was with. And it almost seemed like he was putting like a treasure chest.
in my hands and I just moved to LA. I didn't know like how safe neighborhoods were. And I'm thinking like, what happens if like this got robbed or something, what would I do then? And somehow, like I mentioned that fear to him and he just cracked up, you know, he said.
It's just some pictures. And he basically was saying, just relax. It's we're good and everything's fine. But I get, I get what you're saying. There's a story. I don't even know if it's true, but it's like the saying goes, if, if it didn't happen, it should have.
Tyson (32:29.927)
Hehehehe.
cal (32:31.546)
There's a story about the film director Martin Scorsese, did the movie Raging Bull with Robert De Niro, going into a party. And his idol was the Japanese director Akira Kurosawa. And so he's walking into this party and somebody on the way out sees him.
and just runs up to him and says, Marty, you're never going to believe who's inside, Akira Kurosawa. And so. There's Scorsese thinking.
My childhood hero is in there. And he just turned around and walked away. Didn't go in.
cal (33:23.798)
and he might not want to be disappointed. Other people would have had to go in. I don't even know if the story is true, but it really tells you about what can go wrong when you meet somebody that you see larger than life, because nobody's larger than life. You can't be larger than life. You can't.
Tyson (33:49.04)
Hmm.
cal (33:51.942)
only be living life to its fullest. And when we try to make somebody bigger than life, we can only be disappointed.
Tyson (33:54.928)
Yeah.
Tyson (34:03.559)
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because one name that comes to mind when you think of larger than life is a man that you've had the opportunity to spend more time with a lot of other journalists. And Muhammad Ali is one of those guys that I still will go down a rabbit hole of just YouTube clips of him. I mean, it's in my blood a little bit. My name is Tyson, born in 1987, the year after Mike Tyson won his first world champs, age 20.
And so growing up, there was always a respect for the sport of boxing. But more than that, there was a respect for the hype that goes along with boxing or at least equal to, and no one does it better than him and larger than life seems to be the perfect description. And I can't imagine him having a moment where he wasn't larger than life. But I mean, spending a week with him as you did, did you get much of a difference of opinion in the man that he actually was?
cal (35:03.035)
Actually, it was...
cal (35:08.938)
A lot of people ask me like, what's the best interview you ever did? And Ali was a childhood hero of mine. And so.
for me, it was the best because I got to meet my childhood hero. And he was actually over the course of a week. And this is after he had Parkinson's disease. This is 2003. He first won the heavyweight championship in 1963. This is 40 years later.
I grew up with Ali.
cal (35:53.502)
standing up to the government and saying, I'm not entering the military. I don't believe in this Vietnam war. Basically thinking he might have to go to jail and having his ability to fight taken away, but just sticking to his beliefs and going to the Supreme Court and winning his case and coming back.
and fighting the epic fights of his life after a three and a half year layoff. And basically the week that I spent with him, and I got to meet with him after that, but in that week, I was with a man who was shaking.
uncontrollably at times, who on one day took the medication for his Parkinson's disease. It turned his tongue orange and was sitting on the couch talking, and he just literally fell asleep in mid-conversation, his leg jangling into mine. And, you know, other days, he couldn't speak above a whisper.
but guests would come over to the house and he'd be doing magic tricks for them. And there were...
days where he had to travel long distance. We were at the Special Olympics in Dublin, Ireland, and he was invited to sort of get the festivities off with a bang. He was on a golf cart and he was driven around the track at Croke Park and there's 80,000 people around going crazy.
cal (37:59.286)
And here is a moment where you're talking about the larger than life element came in, because he had a friend named Howard Bingham who was a photographer. And Howard met Ali in like 1962 when they were both very young and they became very close friends. And
I became friends with Howard and so I'm down with them while this golf cart is about to circle the stadium. And Ali gets on, Howard gets on, he waves to me like, come on, come on on. And so I can jump on this cart and you get a sense of what it would, like must feel like.
to be Ali. Now you're a track star. I don't know how often you've felt like this, the wave of noise that comes down from the stands as you're maybe sprinting the last hundred yards in a tight race. But this really was something I'd never ever
I heard because I was always in the 80,000 people screaming. I wasn't on the golf cart waving to the 80,000 like Ali. It really was wild just seeing this energy from the crowd coming down on him and sort of crashing.
and then he would wave and the energy would roll back up to the top of the stadium, and then it would come down on him again. And so I'm thinking back on it was one of the most unique moments of my life because I got an appreciation and an understanding of what his, what it felt like to
cal (40:19.382)
be in that situation. I don't know what was in his head. I could only know what all that wave of energy felt like when it was washing over you. And then like you have a moment like that and then I think it might have been the next day or the day after that we went.
to a conference at the Special Olympics and Nelson Mandela was there. And after they did sort of a joint interview where he, I lay at that point, he couldn't really say that much. And Mandela was guiding things around Quincy Jones, the producer.
He came on stage and then after Ali and Mandela went off to talk and basically, come on Cal, let's go. And then, you know, the next, you just find yourself in the middle of a conversation with Nelson Mandela and he's telling you what it was like to be in prison and hearing about Ali and feeling a sense of hope.
from Ali and you realize, my God, like my hero was Mandela's hero. And, and so you're having these moments, like in the stadium with this crashing of energy around you. And then these moments where you're with people that have moved nations, but they're, they're very,
casual moments where they're just explaining to you how things were. And then it comes down to moments where we actually went into his gym and I sort of gotten into a mock fight with him where we put on the boxing gloves but we didn't hit each other. We were both hitting the heavy bag and
cal (42:41.446)
It got competitive because I was actually imitating his arch rival, my style. And it's kind of a long involved story. But what had happened is like 10 years before, I had trained for six months to get in the ring with the junior welterweight champ, Julio Cesar Chavez. And
Tyson (42:47.559)
Okay.
cal (43:08.758)
For the six months that I trained, I trained in exactly the style of Ali's arch nemesis smoking Joe Frazier. So when we're in the gym, I get down in Joe's crouch and I could even sound like Joe Frazier. And I'm bobbing and weaving like Joe and I'm throwing the left hooks into the bag in the same style that Joe would. And Ali looked over at me the first time I did this.
Tyson (43:24.566)
Bye.
cal (43:38.342)
I swear his eyebrows arched like a sleeping lion awakened by an old familiar scent. He said, you good, he said. Then he went to the bag. So we're going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth till finally. This is the moment I'll never forget. He understood why I was pushing him.
Tyson (43:45.139)
I'm sorry.
Tyson (43:57.682)
Thank you.
cal (44:08.37)
with this back and forth on the bag because I wanted to see what was still in the well. He had Parkinson's, nobody understood one day being in a wheelchair, the next day you see him moving freely, what was going on? He literally waved me to the corner of the gym, and I saw something I never thought I'd ever see again.
He started to dance like he did as a young champion around this heavy bag. And as he did, there were mirrors on all four walls of the gym and he's looking at himself in the mirrors as he's dancing around the bag. And as he's looking at himself in the mirror, his chest came up and his chin came up.
And then he's dancing, and then he stopped pivoted and he threw like 50 punches faster than my eyes could pick them up. I was in shock. But then as he turned away from the bag, his left foot crossed over his right and he started to stumble. And I'm thinking, oh my God, what did you just do, Cal? And then he's going down.
And as he's fallen, my mind is just screaming, no, no. And he goes down on these mats next to the bag. At first, I didn't know what to do. I was paralyzed, but I burst through it and I ran over to help lift him up. And just before I got to him, he had flipped on his back and started doing sit ups.
and stomach crunches. He's playing with it, man. And he goes over. There was a super leg press, grips the handle. It had hundreds of pounds on it, and he's pushing it back and forth. At this point, I'm saying, you don't have to do anymore, man. I see what's in the well. It's OK. And he said, feels good.
Tyson (46:02.547)
Hehehehe.
cal (46:28.534)
and he had more to give. We went back into the house.
cal (46:37.11)
and he stopped me outside the kitchen. And all this time I've been trying to find out the wisdom he'd accumulated. And he just said, wait here. And he went off and came back with a single piece of paper. It was filled with wisdom. And he put it down in front of me.
And he pointed to a line in the middle that said, God will not place a burden on a man's shoulders knowing he cannot carry it, which was basically what I'd come to find out, what it was like to be Ali at that time. And then he went into the kitchen, and he came back a few minutes later. He had two bowls.
two spoons in one hand and a tub of ice cream in the other. And we sat at the kitchen table or the table outside the kitchen. We had ice cream together. And so you could see how this by the peaks and valleys of what I just described, I could come away seeing Ali larger.
in that moment than I did as a kid on a big screen.
Tyson (48:04.043)
Yeah, man, that's something that, yeah. Sorry to pick you up. Yeah, I get it. Man, it's a beautiful story. That story about him dancing in the corner, that's crazy. Yeah, it's the whole Arlie shuffle, that whole story seems to show what was in the world. That idea that the sense of humor, the speed, the confidence, it's a sad story, but it's a beautiful story. It's a...
cal (48:05.329)
And it was...
Yeah, well, you get it. I see it on your face.
Tyson (48:35.93)
I was gonna ask you about the quote you mentioned, Cal, let me just fix my curtain here because this sun's getting right in my eyes. Hey.
cal (48:42.61)
I could see that. Wow. You look like a superhero character for a second.
Tyson (48:50.083)
I was thinking my editing skills aren't that good to remove a glowing head from my shoulders. But there we go, that's made it better. It's a good problem to have. It means that we got blue.
cal (48:59.534)
Oh man, you had a glow, you had a real halo around your head there.
Tyson (49:05.951)
I didn't want to move as you're in the middle of your story because it was speaking about leaning forward. I was right there. That quote, God's not going to place on your shoulders a burden heavier than you can handle, is one that I think is exemplified not just at that point in his life, but obviously throughout his entire career, specifically in relation to the Vietnam War, racial division in America.
the fact that he couldn't sit next to the white citizens in the same cafe at the time, despite being an Olympic gold medal winner. I think there's a certain thing where an athlete, a writer, an actor, it doesn't seem to matter who you are, crosses the line between what it is that they're known for and almost a...
Like cultural leaders, the wrong word, but you know what I'm trying to say? They almost become a leader in a greater sense of what they already are. And the way he lived throughout his life, there's very few people I know who would potentially sacrifice years of world boxing championship trophies in the name of something he believed in. And I mean, you only have to see Hollywood at the moment to see there's a lot of people who probably bite their tongue on things they passionately believe in the name of
maybe trying to get a role or trying to get a job or trying to get a gig. It's a very difficult road to walk if it's one you choose to walk, to stand up for the things that you really believe in.
cal (50:38.122)
Yeah, he took that and you know, it's hard to...
think back to where the United States was in the early 1960s when he came of age. And Larry King went down to Miami a little earlier than Ali, but Larry King was down in like 57, 58, right around there to
cal (51:18.162)
walked the streets of Miami Beach looking for a radio, a small radio station that might hire him. And Ali, after winning an Olympic gold medal, ended up in Miami training at the Fifth Street Gym. But if you ask both of them about the time and the landscape, Larry King will tell you that when he...
stepped off the bus in Miami for the first time and went to get a drink of water. There were two water fountains, one for whites, one for colored. And when Ali went there, he was staying at a hotel on the black side of town. And that's the way the world was. It's.
I think it's really hard for people to imagine that now. And I also think that when people hear about it, now they are either in disbelief or they're furious.
and
cal (52:37.738)
What's often lost sight are the little steps along the way that took us from there to where we are now. And it was Ali and a lot of people like him that were making those steps.
And it's when I when I think back on it, it's hard to imagine somebody getting death threats in the late 60s. After Martin Luther King had been assassinated and Bobby Kennedy had been assassinated and years earlier.
John F. Kennedy getting assassinated. So when you get death threats in a time like those, you got to take them seriously. I can remember a television show where it wasn't a show, it was like a report where he was getting these death threats on a street packed with people. And he's asked about it, and he said, I'm right here. Like.
on corner 126th Street in Lexington Avenue. He had this faith, and I don't know if that was the exact street, but the point is wherever it happened, he had a faith that he was destined to do this and he followed his path. And...
You know, that is what one of the things I think that attracted me to following him. And it showed up in all the aspects of his life because. I can remember when he was fighting the undefeated George Foreman, who was younger, heavier, big punch, as seemingly.
cal (54:46.994)
unstoppable. And in the first few rounds of that fight, Ali is leaning back against the ropes and Foreman is just wailing away. And if you loved Ali, you'd almost want to feel like you're crying. And of course, you're not in the ring and hearing Ali talking to George saying, is that all you got, George? Is that all you got?
And years later, I would ask Foreman about it, and George said, man, like, it really does you in because you keep saying this and you're saying to yourself, yeah, that is, oh my God.
Tyson (55:25.524)
Thank you.
Tyson (55:29.476)
I'm going to go.
cal (55:32.658)
And then to see like, you know, the rounds pass six, seven, eight. And all of a sudden you see George out of gas and throwing these wild shots and how they just pinpointing a punch and literally knocking him down. I can remember there were people sitting next to me in an arena where I was watching it in St. Louis. I never met them before. Everybody was just like.
jumping up and down, hugging each other, like delirious with joy out of our love for this guy. I never saw those people again, but I had that moment with them. And that's what he did. He brought people together. He connected with people. And that is what we're losing in...
our current society where I don't know how it is with remote work in Australia, but people are feeling disconnected. And every person I've ever spent time with who's done something great in this world has always made a profound connection.
Ali was a great example. I mean, the athletes, it's so easy to see. Pelé, just everywhere he went in the world, everybody knew who he was. He had this magnificent connection and he understood it and it was a responsibility to him. Now we are...
And many people are feeling lonely. Many people feel isolated. And I don't know that we have an Ali that everybody could feel a sense of connection to. And even the people, there are a lot of people who despised Ali in the mid-60s. In some strange way, they were connected to him the same. Because they.
cal (57:55.03)
They didn't like his stance. They thought he should go to the war, but as time passed,
cal (58:05.282)
there was a grudging respect and then an admiration because he stood up for what he believed and he took the blows. And when we saw him on Olympic stage in Atlanta in 1996, holding the torch up, his right hand shaking with Parkinson's to light the flame that was going to climb.
to the heights to drop into the Olympic cauldron and set it ablaze.
literally when the world saw that sight of this man, this incredibly nimble athlete standing in front of the world with his hand shaking and the torch in that hand, it was a moment that
literally took the breath out of the whole crowd. I mean, people who were there, and I wasn't in the stadium that night, said it was one of the rare times where you heard an entire crowd gasp at seeing the sight of something. And that's connection.
Tyson (59:36.269)
Hmm.
cal (59:36.886)
complete connection and it connected with everybody who saw it around the world in the moment and probably you can connect to it now and understand
cal (59:51.838)
what he went through and the fact that he was there, you know, more than 30 years after he got an Olympic gold, in a place that many people would not want to be seen in front of the world.
And he was there allowing everybody to connect with him. And I really think it's something that we're really lacking and that we needed. We're very polarized here. I don't know how it is in Australia. I hope it's not as polarized. But.
We need to find ways to connect.
Tyson (01:00:47.299)
Yeah, I think Australia is definitely, I mean, the last couple of years all over the world has been very interesting. It's, it's the most polarised I'd ever seen Australia. I always looked at us as a very laid back, united group of people. And then obviously through COVID, there was different opinions on the right way forward and, you know, some people loved our leaders, other people hated it. I mean, insert that response worldwide. I mean, I follow pretty closely to.
America, or not pretty closely. I mean, I'll tune into a couple of podcasts I like. I watched Chris Cuomo and Tucker Carlson catch up for two hours last night. And it was more out of the curiosity of watching two of the big dogs in the world of television journalism, sit down and just play off each other. It was almost, we've spoken about the elites in the world of sport. I was looking at those as though, you know, at least from a television sense, they were, they're known as the elites in the industry that they're in.
This seems to be what we need here in Australia and America. These people are on completely opposite sides of the fence, politically, physically, which they were both very open about, sit down across from each other and have a laugh and talk about their ideas. And I like what you said here, but this is ridiculous or clarify, why did you bully me? And just watch that connection take place. You go, this seems like a healthier response. And I mean,
The division that you see, especially in reference to America at the moment, I feel is, it seems really magnified through the media at the moment. And obviously there's a lot of alternative media, but it is interesting. It was a question I wanted to ask you about in terms of like a journalist in your shoes, you've sat down with the likes as, as you said, Donald Trump, Muhammad Ali, Gorbachev, I mean, it's literally endless. There's no point in me trying to say the names because I'll link them in the show notes for anyone interested.
There seemed to be no political drive behind what you do. And now it seems that a lot of modern journalism is dictated by what am I allowed to say or what am I giving the okay to say, or who can I talk to and how can I show people who to vote for what they should believe rather than, hey, what's your story?
cal (01:03:03.686)
Yeah, and it's a reason why I've never really been attracted to being that television style of interviewer. And.
Now it really would put you in a place where you would have an earpiece in your ear with a producer who has an agenda and they're trying to throw certain questions out to catch somebody who's on the other side or to.
lob up an alley you pass to somebody who's on your side. And that never really appealed to me. I'm always the cow that got on buses and trains when I was in my early 20s and sat in empty seats next to people I thought looked interesting.
and just got into a conversation to see where it went. And so I don't know how this is going to be resolved, but a lot of my work now revolves around trying to help connect people, connect them in the workplace because they may only really know each other through these
fragmented zoomathons. And it's really funny, because I do sort of workshops, conferences, where I bring, or the company brings together all the employees, many of them who may be remote, in cases all of them may be remote. And it's wild when you see them walk into the room and, oh!
cal (01:05:18.198)
I didn't know you were 6'6". They think they know each other from these fragmented sessions, but they don't have a sense of who they really are, and they don't know their backstories. Quite often, what happens is when you start a remote job,
Tyson (01:05:20.615)
Hehehe
cal (01:05:45.542)
and you're on zoom and you hear somebody say something that you don't agree with, you lose trust. You just don't trust that person. You have an opinion and it's not like they were working a few feet away from you and you got into an elevator with them and discovered that you both had
children in the third grade at the same school. This is.
cal (01:06:20.174)
a look at a particular area of work and somebody has an opinion and somebody does not agree with it at all. And there's never get a second chance to make a first impression. Every time that other person comes back to the zoom chat, whenever
Tyson (01:06:41.319)
Hmm.
cal (01:06:47.306)
the person who they don't trust starts to say something, they're kind of thinking, all right, here it goes again. And it's really sad because...
This this just didn't happen.
cal (01:07:07.786)
like before we were isolated. And you know, I can imagine the same thing. You go to church, you meet people week after week after week, and you may not agree with them, but you know what you have in common. What's happening is we're disagreeing, but we don't know what we, what we're sharing, what we have in common, what we're working forward, for together.
Tyson (01:07:38.028)
Hmm.
cal (01:07:38.394)
And so where my life took me is to try to help people connect. And I can't do it like Muhammad Ali, but you know what? I've been in that golf cart. And I know a little something about connections. So I can throw a few punches.
Tyson (01:07:56.403)
Thank you.
Tyson (01:08:02.991)
It's so interesting. You know, I mentioned the period of COVID here and on the subject of disconnection. I remember sitting in this room that I'm in now, essentially in my office. And I was just scrolling through Facebook, which was a really bad start because obviously everyone's opinion at the peak of COVID was different. And I just remember looking through some people's statuses and some of the things that people were saying who I completely disagreed with and...
doing the exact same thing, just thinking you're an idiot. And I'm sort of ashamed to admit it now, but the emotions died down and I look back and I see it in myself. And then I go back out and some of these people that I'm referring to are from the world of comedy. And I've caught up with them and had conversations with them at comedy. And I know politically, we completely disagree, completely, but I'm sitting down having a drink with them. And I've caught myself on multiple occasions going,
You're an actual, like you're a legend. You're a champion of a person. Like you've got a beautiful heart. You're obviously very kind. You're very caring. You're nice to me. You're funny. And I'd made all of these judgments about these people based on a Facebook status or based on a comment that I had heard. And you're right, that idea of remote work. I can see how that disconnect takes place because if you're left in that state permanently, I'd probably still be sitting here thinking they're an idiot.
cal (01:09:28.027)
Well, I'm glad we got that resolved. I try and let people know how this happens so they can look at themselves in the mirror and say, you know, maybe I ought to listen more carefully and maybe I shouldn't.
Tyson (01:09:30.791)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
cal (01:09:52.03)
shut them off or not value their opinions.
And when you talk this out with people, when you explain this isn't only you, this is a lot of people that are acting this way. And when you get to know them and that's like the brilliance of say, coming into a company retreat and having them all tell their stories to each other. So they each understand where they came from and what they do share. Then.
you really get a joy out of leaving, knowing that the group is different. And I know because I talk to people afterward and they'll tell me, you know, I had to make a call and a tough ask. And I know if I had made that call before that day, before we all came together, I probably would have gotten a no.
But because they knew me now, they knew who I am, they knew my story, I knew them, I was able to get what I needed and it made everybody better. So there are ways of showing people what's possible if we all connect and collaborate and understand that, you know, it's roughly.
and I may be a few percentage points off here, but somebody told me a statistic that basically 90% of all of the content that gets released, the political content, is released by 7% of the population. It's the same few people that are putting out that messaging. And roughly the 80% in the middle,
cal (01:11:56.086)
getting through their day and going back to their families and trying to get by. And there needs to be a connection among that 80% to understand we are together. We are connected by all the things that are happening in this world. And we really ought to come together to find solutions because
That 7%, maybe like 3.5% on each side that are just trying to hijack all the politics.
Tyson (01:12:35.591)
Hmm, it's really interesting. That silent majority, yeah, you're right. It's so interesting just to hear about the fact. You forget that, don't you? You forget about the fact that most people are just trying to look after their family and work their job and aren't necessarily overly passionate about so many of the things that are plugged or so many of the things that are thrown at us. Carl, I had a final question for you, which I was really curious just to hear your thoughts on. Obviously with independent media shows like this, there's...
I mean, there's endless interviewers now. There's endless people who, who have started or are well into the role that you've done for decades. And I mean, is there a particular person or is there a group of. Interviewers or podcasts hosts that you look at and you go, ah, like that's the new Larry King or that's the new Cal Fussman or that's the. Like that's a talent who stands out to you at the moment, because obviously people like Tim Ferris, Joe Rogan has an incredible following off and wonder what it is that these guys are doing so well.
I know it's so much more than just the skill that they're being recognized for. There's obviously some cultural movement following along with them, but I'm just fascinated to hear your thoughts on who's doing it well.
cal (01:13:44.234)
Well, like, when you look at somebody like Joe Rogan, it really makes sense, you know? He has roots in comedy, and he's basically, you know, following his path through mixed martial arts, and he's got a great curiosity. And so he's kind of put it together, and I think there have been...
a number of interviewers. It was there's a show about interviewing guests while eating wings with hot sauce. I don't know if you've ever seen the show. There you go.
Tyson (01:14:33.444)
I've seen more episodes than I'm, I'd be embarrassed if I told you how many episodes I've watched. Ha ha ha.
cal (01:14:39.058)
Yeah, to me, the two the two interviewers who have stood out or the two shows that stood out. That's one. And the other was that carpool karaoke show. Where guests would come on a lot of time, singers would come on and sing. With with the host.
Tyson (01:15:05.467)
James Corden, I think.
cal (01:15:07.531)
who was driving along. And I thought those two shows really pushed interviewing to a different place. Because the hot sauce, it distracts the person interviewing. And they're just trying to get through the experience. And the...
The carpool karaoke, you're singing together. And so when you sing together, there's no question that is. However difficult that is going to be perceived as a gotcha question, or I'm going to hurt you question after you've just poured your heart and lungs out.
singing a song you both loved. And so there's like two ways that the interview was taken to a new place. And I thought both of them were genius. And we're waiting to see the next incarnation of somebody who's going to do the interviews in a very different way.
Because as you're saying, with everybody doing the podcasts, no matter how different they may seem, they're still doing a podcast. It's very different from watching somebody cry while they're trying to get down wings with hot sauce as like off the charts.
and you're laughing, they're crying, and then they're telling some remarkable story because they can't stop themselves and say, don't tell this, they're completely distracted. So those are my two shows that I'd say really push the envelope.
Tyson (01:17:20.432)
Hehehehehehe Hehehehe
cal (01:17:31.33)
and I'm always looking for the next.
Tyson (01:17:34.527)
Yeah. Well, Cal, mate, thank you so much for making the time and being so generous with your time coming on here. I've really been looking forward to meeting you, having the chance to hear some more stories and pick your brain about a number of them. Really appreciate it.
cal (01:17:49.858)
Thank you. It's really been a delightful hour, hour and a half. And say hello to Australia. I got to get down there one of these days. So let's stay in touch because it would be great to throw back. I love Australian wine. It'd be great to throw back some Shiraz with you.
Tyson (01:18:12.959)
Oh, man, you'd be in very good company in the Popplestone household, especially with my wife. She can drink with the best of it and appreciates good wine. So, hey, we will stay in touch. I'll pick you up at the airport. Cal, we'll leave it there. Thanks again.
cal (01:18:27.086)
All right. Thank you.
Tyson (01:18:30.043)
I'll cut that off there, man. That was awesome. That was such a great chat. Thank you so much.