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Each month, Texas State University President Dr. Kelly Damphousse sits down with faculty members, staff, students, alumni, and community members for a conversation about all things TXST — the past, the present, and the bright future of the university.
Part of the TXST Podcast Network: https://www.txst.edu/podcast-network.html
- I think there's a mystery out there
about what Texas is to people
who've never been here before.
- I agree, especially New Yorkers.
- Especially New Yorkers.
And so it's funny, when
when I came to Texas,
this was 1985, I didn't
know much about it.
I knew I'd heard of the Dallas Cowboys,
and I think I'd heard of Houston.
Kind of a funny story, there's
this George Strait song
that I was listening to a
lot before I came down here
called Amarillo by Morning.
- I love that song.
- And there's a line
in there, he says,
Amarillo by Morning Up from San Antone.
I thought the name of
the town was San Antone.
And when I got here, people
were going San Antonio.
I said, why do you keep
saying it like that?
Because it's San Antone.
- That's great.
- So from outsiders to see Texas.
Sometimes there's all these
myths and mysteries about it.
(bright music)
Well, welcome back to
"The Current Podcast."
I'm joined by my very good
friend, Dr. Christine Norton,
who's a professor in the
School of Social Work.
Thank you for joining us today.
- Thanks for having me.
It's great to be here.
- I always love to hear people
tell their Texas State story,
like, how did you get here?
So why don't we start
at the very beginning.
Where'd you grow up
and kind of the process
of becoming a professor.
- Yeah, thank you.
Well, I should say this is
my 17th fall semester here.
I'm in my 17th year.
- It's flown by.
- At Texas State,
which is crazy.
Yeah, it has flown by.
So I grew up all over, I lived
in eight different states
by the time I graduated high school.
My dad was a preacher and he--
- You're a PK.
- I'm a PK.
- Oh, there you go.
- The podcast is not about that though.
- No, no, no.
We're shifting gears right now.
So tell me about being a PK.
- Well--
- No, I'm kidding.
- Well, it did lead to me
pursuing social work as a career.
'Cause I was surrounded by kind of people
in the world of helping others.
My dad, you know, was
constantly responding
to families in crisis or
doing marriages or funerals.
And so I did grow up in a world
of kind of service and helping.
So it kind of made sense
that I found social work as a career.
And I did my doctorate
at Loyola University
in Chicago in Social Work.
And I was, at the time,
finishing up my doctorate
while living in Denver
and teaching adjunct
at the University of Denver
School of Social Work.
And when it came time to
kind of go on the job market,
Texas State University came
up on the, you know, listserv
as hiring an assistant professor.
And I told my husband, I
think I'm gonna interview.
And he's a New Yorker.
And so he said, really?
Texas?
And I was like, yeah.
But I had lived in Texas in the early '90s
right after I graduated.
- Where was that?
- I lived in Hawkins, Texas.
I worked at a therapeutic wilderness camp.
It's in East Texas, in the
Piney Woods of East Texas.
- I had never heard of Hawkins.
- Near Tyler.
- I know where Tyler is.
- So near Tyler.
- Tyler Rose.
- And I had worked there
for two years at a
therapeutic wilderness camp
for boys and girls.
And that was what actually
spurred me to go back
and get my graduate degree in social work
because the job was so challenging.
But I also really fell in love with Texas.
We did a lot of outdoor
therapy with the kids.
We went to Big Bend, we
went to Enchanted Rock.
And so Texas had this very
special place in my heart.
And so when the job popped up
and I told my husband I
wanted to go interview,
he kind of said, OK,
we'll see what happens.
And I came down for an
interview, fell in love
with the School of Social Work
because I saw that my colleagues
were social workers first,
academics second.
And that meant something to me.
And I came home and I said,
I think I wanna take the job.
And my sweet, sweet husband,
who's a high school teacher
here at Hays High School
in Kyle, he said, yeah, sure, sure.
OK, we'll move to Texas.
And like three days later
he woke up in a cold sweat.
- What am I doing?
- I've never even been to Texas.
And so I flew him down
and I took him to Pedernales State Park.
We went out for barbecue in Lockhart.
We went and heard live
music on Congress, you know,
and I kind of sold Texas to him.
And here we are all those years later.
- You know, I think
there's a mystery out there
about what Texas is to people
who've never been here before.
- I agree, especially New Yorkers.
- Especially New Yorkers.
And so it's funny, when I came to Texas,
this was 1985, I didn't
know much about it.
I knew I'd heard of the Dallas Cowboys,
and I think I'd heard of Houston,
but I didn't know much else about it.
And kind of a funny story,
there's this George Strait song
that I was listening to a
lot before I came down here
called Amarillo by Morning.
- I love that song.
- And oh, it's a great song.
- It's a great song.
- It's a great overcomer song, you know,
but there's a line in there.
He says, Amarillo by
Morning up from San Antone.
I thought the name of
the town was San Antone.
When I got here, people
were going San Antonio.
I said, why do you keep
saying it like that?
Because it's San Antone.
- That's great.
- So from outsiders to see Texas,
sometimes there's all these
myths and mysteries about it.
- Absolutely.
- But it grows on you, right?
- It does.
- Yeah.
- It does, and I actually
had floated the river
in the mid '90s when I worked at the camp,
came down, you know,
with all of my coworkers
from the camp and took a weekend off
and floated the San Marcos River.
And that was in 1992.
- Wow.
- And so came back all
these years later, you know,
and still swim in the river.
And I maintain, it's
not just for students.
- I've never floated the river.
Like I don't, well I just
don't know how to do it.
You know, I guess I need someone to give--
- Bucket list.
Write that down.
- Christy, you're gonna
have to take me out.
Show me how to do it.
- OK.
- Or should I have someone
else show me how to do it?
- No, you just go to the
Lions Club, you rent a tube,
you just pop right in and
they bring you right back.
It's really user friendly.
- I've been in the river, we've jumped in
to celebrate certain things,
so I just never like floated it.
Can you answer emails
while you're out there?
- Sure, you can have waterproof.
- That's great, I have to try that out.
So let me ask you about the pathway
to getting a Ph.D. from a
social work perspective.
And let me ask you if you
think this is correct.
I think there's a lot of people
who like always wanna be a professor
and they went to undergrad
and they went to straight
to graduate school.
And they knew they're gonna be a biologist
or they're gonna be a chemist
or something like that.
But it seems like the social work degree,
and maybe even education may
be similar to this as well.
People get their degree 'cause they want
to be a social worker or
they want to be a teacher.
And then they started doing it for a while
and said, oh, maybe I'll
get a master's degree
and then, oh, you know,
I could get a Ph.D.
and then kind of teach
people how to do this thing.
Is that kind of the natural
thing for social work for the?
Because you said something about,
they're social workers
first and professors second.
Is it pretty common in that field?
- Yeah, and I think when I said that,
I mean just in terms of
people that really adhere
to social work values and ethics.
- Not necessarily the timeline.
- Yeah.
- But the value.
- But I do think that's a
really solid kind of connecting
of the dots that, you know,
you do become a social work practitioner.
For me it was,
they're in the Council
on Social Work Education,
which is our accrediting body.
They have a concept of
practice informed research
and research informed practice.
And so when I was practicing,
I had all kinds of questions
about what's really making a difference
in the lives of these kids?
What is the impact of going
outside on our mental health?
I just, I was a very, I still am,
just a very curious person.
And so when I was a school
social worker in Chicago
at St. Ignatius College Prep,
it's a Jesuit high school
on the west side of Chicago,
they had a tuition reimbursement program
with Loyola University,
which is a Jesuit university.
And I was curious
and I thought, oh, well
someone's gonna pay
for 60% of more education.
And I already had two master's degrees
because I knew I wanted to do social work,
but I actually was very interested
in outdoor education as well.
So I wanted to combine those two things,
the social work and the outdoor education.
So I figured, well, someone
else is gonna pay for this.
And so I went to Loyola
and I didn't have any aspirations
of going into higher education.
- I think that's pretty common.
- I just wanted to keep learning.
But as I got into my doctoral program,
I did a teaching practicum,
I taught a class with Dr.
Randy Lucente at Loyola
in adolescent treatment.
And I fell in love with teaching.
And so yeah, fast forward
and I thought, OK, I can do this.
And so it's like that gradual
evolution of practitioner,
for me, it was from practitioner
to social work educator
and then to social work researcher.
- Scholar.
- Yeah, social work scholar.
- So, you know, I think again,
people who don't, you know,
aren't living in higher
education every day,
think about research at
a research one university
like we are about to become in 2027,
are thinking about laboratories
and are thinking about
scientists with, you know,
microscopes and looking at the stars
or whatever they're doing,
physics research and so on.
But there's a lot of research
being done in the social sciences
and the health professions and so on.
- A ton.
- And you're pretty heavily
involved in research as well.
And can you talk a little bit about
how you decided I want to be a researcher
and then what you're doing
and how maybe your past kinda led you to
where you are in your research journey?
- Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I think one of the best things about
being a professor are they,
don't quote me on this.
We have three areas of expectation, right,
as a tenured or tenure track professor.
And that is our research,
our service and our teaching.
And I have felt that there are avenues
and opportunities for
inquiry, scholarly inquiry,
in each of those areas.
So I've done research in the area
of like social work education and pedagogy
on like reflective teaching
and really just good educational practice
in social work education.
Then I've also done research
on my field of practice
as a social worker,
which is outdoor therapy.
And that's been the bulk of my research.
I was a research scientist
with the Outdoor Behavioral
Healthcare Center,
which is based out of the
University of New Hampshire.
And that's actually now been changed
to the Outdoor Research Collaborative
for Health, Wellbeing and
Experiential Engagement.
And I'm a co-director
of that collaborative.
And so that collaborative
really focuses on building
and nurturing
practitioner-researcher partnerships
all over the world.
And so I found my people
here at Texas State
that also do research
in nature and health.
I'm a member of the Nature
and Health Alliance,
which actually started here in Texas.
And so really pushing forward alternative,
innovative mental health
interventions for people
that are struggling, that
partner with the natural world.
I'm sitting here looking
at these beautiful pictures
of our river and Texas State
is really uniquely situated
to be a hub for nature
and health research.
So it's exciting.
And then finally, you know,
I think some of my research
has also stemmed from my
service here at the university,
which is my work with students
with lived experience in foster care
and doing research in that area as well.
- Yeah, I wanna talk about
that a little bit too is so,
because you said kind of the cool things
about being a professor
is these three areas
and how they kind of intertwine.
But what is also great
about being a professor,
I think is the autonomy you have.
You can kind of direct your path.
You know, you have expectations
to teach a certain class
and you have to do research of some kind,
but no one really tells you what to do
or what service to do.
And you've probably had different
experiences with research.
Did this for a while, then
you kinda shifted gears
and studied this, kind of
talk through the process
of your research timeline.
Did it shift focus over time
or have you always done the same thing?
- It's been pretty focused.
- Yeah.
- On outdoor therapy,
looking at it from a
lot of different lenses.
Some is like hardcore empirical research,
studying interventions.
I partnered with a program
through a Hogg Foundation
grant in San Antone,
- Well done.
- San Antonio.
With their Child Advocacy Center there.
They have a program called FEAT.
It's Family Enrichment Adventure Therapy.
And so we looked at does
this multifamily group work
outdoors diminish child
trauma symptomology
as well as increase
family functioning like,
so some very empirical social
and behavioral science
around outdoor therapy.
And then other more kind of
theoretical pieces about,
you know, kind of outdoor therapy theory
and process variables, looking at that.
So I'm always interested
in staying in this field.
It really, I've seen,
because I've gotten to
wear my practitioner hat
and I've gotten to be both a practitioner
and a researcher, which obviously,
helps me be very near to the data.
And I also have to manage my bias.
Which is why we have some of those checks
and balances in the research process.
But it's definitely where my heart is.
And I feel like since
the pandemic especially,
I think all of humanity
has kind of realized
that getting outside is good for us.
And we can look at that
across the continuum of care
where we think about like
recreation and leisure
and we can also kind of move
across that continuum of care
to structured mental health interventions
that incorporate nature.
So I've stayed pretty centered
on that field of practice.
- What is it about being
outdoors that makes it different?
Because I've heard
about like music therapy
and you got psychoanalytic
theory and so on,
but what is it about the outdoors?
It seems like that's the
cheapest thing to do, right?
Just, you know, these other things
can be very kind of intensive,
but just getting kids on a bus
and going to a camp somewhere
or riding horses or doing something.
What is it that's special about that?
- There's a connection that
happens, kind of a reset.
- Oh yeah, the reset.
- There is a definite reset that happens.
And the research is really interesting
because there are actual physical benefits
that happen when we are outside in nature.
Everything from the
slowing of our heart rate
and our respirations to the
boosting of our immunology.
And then when you look at
some of the mental health benefits,
there's decreases in rumination.
There's improvements
in our ability to cope
and our sense of resilience
when facing things
like depression, anxiety,
even trauma recovery happening in nature.
There's again, this kind
of holding environment
that nature provides.
And then there's kind of the
aspect of like being in nature.
There's some research
that came out of Cornell
that looked at, and it was based on
college student mental health that showed
that students need only 10
minutes a day either sitting
or walking in nature to statistically
significantly decreased symptoms
of depression and anxiety.
And then there's also doing
in nature, which is like,
you know, walking, biking,
trail running, swimming,
kayaking, all those things.
And so then you get the
benefits also of green exercise.
So you're actually
engaging your body as well.
So there's a lot of therapeutic variables.
It's kind of a nightmare
from a research perspective.
- There's so much stuff going on.
- 'Cause there's a lot
of different variables
that influence the outcomes.
- You know, I worked at,
my very first job out of
graduate school was at UAB.
It's a very urban campus.
And I always felt like I was
like, I always had to be on
because there's so much
going, you're in a city
and it wasn't like Texas State
where you can kinda walk around
and be surrounded by trees.
And almost forget you're
on a campus sometimes.
- It's so beautiful here.
- Yeah, it is.
I hadn't thought about that.
Does part of the therapy
include like turning off your
phone or not having a phone?
I think sometimes people get anxious
when they don't have a phone.
- So anxious.
- But if you turn it off,
sometimes there's
something liberating about
just not being tethered to it.
Is that part of the modality too?
- Absolutely.
There's some kind of
theoretical perspectives
that we actually reset our attention.
It's called Attention Restoration Theory.
And part of that is the
disconnecting from technology
and the immersion and kind
of the soft fascination.
It's a different type
of cognitive processing
that we do in nature then
that really hard focus
when we're looking at technology.
Sometimes I'll let my
students cheat though.
I actually teach a graduate
elective in outdoor therapy
and I'll do an awe walk with
my students, which is a process
that comes out of the Center
for Greater Good Science
at UC Berkeley, where you go
and practice noticing things
of beauty in nearby nature.
And so sometimes I'll just let my students
take pictures and it's just so great
'cause I remember one
of my veteran students,
a lot of times I'll get veterans
that sign up for my class
because outdoor therapy has been shown
to be a very effective
treatment for veterans.
It's not as pathologizing as sitting down
and doing like talk therapy.
Not as stigmatizing.
It's really active.
They're engaged.
And I remember seeing one of my veterans
who had been coping with
PTSD and other challenges
and I'm looking at him,
he's holding his phone right
on campus over a plant.
And I walk by and there's
this little butterfly,
this tiny beautiful
little orange butterfly.
And he's like, sh, Dr.
Norton, look, it's so pretty.
And it was just this beautiful moment
where he was 100% present in his body,
grounded, full of gratitude,
peace, tranquility.
And so when I experience those
moments with my students,
I know I'm doing the right thing.
- You are doing the right
thing because, you know,
I think you're having huge
impact on the research, you know,
enterprise teaching as well.
Let's talk about your
service for a little bit.
And so I think the first time
you and I connected was over this program
that you're involved in called FACES.
And so, you know, my parents adopted me
and they were foster parents as well.
So similar to you, I
had like social workers
coming in and out of
my house all the time.
Police officers and social workers.
- Wow.
- And I was more inspired
by the police officers than
the social workers, I think
because they were like
in the instant of it
'cause they were the person
who was bringing the child
to my mom to look after.
And then they would hang out
after they'd been smoking
cigarettes, drinking coffee.
You know, having, you know,
interacting with my mom.
And I remember thinking,
those guys are like Superman.
Right?
And so that's inspired me
to want to become a police
officer, was that experience.
But I've always been
very attuned to this idea
of foster kids
and people who are not living
with their natural family
and the challenges that students
who are in the foster system
face when they go to college
'cause first off, the number of them going
to college is actually pretty small.
And then when they get
there, they face tremendous
challenges because they
can't do things like go home
for the weekend 'cause there's no home.
Or over Thanksgiving break,
there's nowhere to go.
And Christmas break and so on.
And so when I came here, I discovered
through a mutual colleague about FACES.
And I said, I gotta learn more about this.
And then I went and chatted with you
and some of your students involved.
And so talk about how
FACES got started here
and how you got involved
and what you're doing there.
- Yeah, I got involved in FACES,
well FACES didn't exist.
Probably about 13 years ago,
an all call went out
from Student Affairs to
start a mentoring program
looking for mentors,
faculty mentors for students
with lived experience in foster care.
And so I thought, well,
I'm a social work professor,
you know, this makes sense.
I should sign up to do this.
- I'm duty bound.
- Well, and just, you
know, I take our service,
I take it seriously, those are my values.
And so what I didn't know
is that Dr. Toni Watt,
who's the chair of the
Sociology Department
and former colleague of yours.
- She and I were at Oklahoma together.
- So she had also signed up to be a mentor
and then we got to talking
through a mutual friend in
Student Affairs about this,
you know, these students
and what they need.
And so we actually applied
for a research enhancement program grant,
which is an internal, you know,
research funding mechanism
here at Texas State
to study the mentoring program
that Student Affairs had started
to see if it was having
an impact on students
to see if it was enough.
And our research found
that actually students really needed more
of a comprehensive campus support program,
that the mentoring component
was having an impact,
however they needed more.
And so out of that, Dr.
Watt and I wrote a grant,
an external grant to get
funding over two years.
And we recruited some of
the students who had mentors
to help us name the
program, create the program,
because there's a saying in foster care,
nothing about us without us.
And so we knew that we needed
that participatory action
from these students
who we would then be serving
and working with closely.
So they were involved from the start,
help us create the FACES program,
which is Foster Care Alumni
Creating Educational Success.
And over the last 13 years, we've received
other external grants that
have helped fund the program.
We've had support from Student Affairs,
we've had support from social work,
we've had support from sociology
and we've done it on a
very grassroots level.
- Yeah.
- Because we care.
And yet over the years,
Texas State University
also became a model of one
of the first campus support
programs in the state of Texas
and one of the first in the country
that really looked at our outcomes.
And so Dr. Watt and I also then have done
peer reviewed research looking at
whether or not the FACES
campus support initiative
has impacted our students.
And if you look, you know,
there are about 37
states around the country
that have some kind of tuition
and fee waiver program.
So our students receive
a tuition and fee waiver,
but they don't have any other support.
And so it's still a really hard road
and only about, you know,
the statistics vary
depending on the study,
but anywhere between
10 and 15% of students
in foster care make it to college.
And then the amount that graduate,
you know, of that 10% is even lower.
And so in Texas, I think
the graduation rate
of foster care students
in higher ed is about 16%.
But with the support of
the FACES initiative,
we've been able to help
our students achieve
similar graduation
rates to the traditional
or typical student body here
at Texas State, which is huge.
So it really shows
that when these young
people have the support
that they need, they're as
capable as any of our students.
- Your work has inspired my wife Beth
to start a scholarship for students
who have been involved
in the foster system.
And she did it kind of,
it was around my birthday,
my 60th birthday was coming up
and they said, instead of, you know,
giving Kelly a president,
why don't you donate
to this new scholarship program
and I'll match whatever you give.
And so I said, give 60 bucks
to this scholarship program.
- That's awesome.
- And she's done that
every year for my birthday.
And then I started doing
it for her birthday.
And you know, people
have really understand,
I think through the process, the challenge
that these young people are facing.
And they've been very generous.
And so Beth matches gift for gift.
And so we've got enough money in there now
for three $1,500 scholarships a year.
- Nice.
- And we hope to continue
growing that, but your
work is inspiring us,
but it's also inspiring the
community around us to see that,
you know, the university
isn't just about, you know,
having kids come here and
get degrees and leave here.
There's something special happening here
that we are literally are
changing people's lives.
And so many of our students
who are not even involved
in foster care come here
with tremendous challenges.
A lot of first generation students,
a lot of Pell eligible students,
people who came from
schools didn't prepare them
very well academically.
But then you pile on top of that,
having been in the foster system--
- Complex developmental trauma.
- Yeah, thank you for putting
some real good words to that.
That these are young people,
but for that kind of support system,
are not gonna be able to survive here.
That are gonna come here.
And college seems kind
of easy from the outside,
but when you're in the midst
of it, it's pretty tough.
It's very complex, a
lot of things going on,
a lot of moving parts.
And you're actually literally
changing people's lives.
And there's a whole movement
starting around this.
I know in Austin there's
a big program there about
supporting foster care.
A lot of our students
are getting scholarships
from that program as well.
So it's fascinating to see
the world come together
to kind of embrace these young
people that through no fault
of their own, are in a situation
that makes things very
challenging for them.
Well, Christine, one of
the fun things we do here
is we invite viewers
and listeners to submit questions to me.
And I used to just like read them myself,
but I think it's funner if you actually
ask me the question.
So I've not seen the question
and you haven't either.
- Let's hope the font is big.
Oh, it is.
Thank you to whoever knew
that I needed large size font.
I love this question.
Oh, this fits really
nicely with our interview.
So the question is, in what
ways can alumni stay involved
and give back to Texas State University?
- Well, how about that?
- That's a good one.
- You know, I think it's
really good for our alumni
to pay attention to what's
happening at Texas State
and that means, you know,
make sure we have people's
contact information.
Because, you know, when they leave here,
they lose their email address
and sometimes we just
lose track of people.
And so giving us their contact
information is very helpful.
We had an occasion recently at graduation
where we invited graduates
from the class of 2020
who didn't get a chance
to walk, to come back
and walk with the class of 2024.
And we posted pictures of it
and several alumni said, well,
I wish I had known about that.
Well, the reason you didn't know,
'cause we don't have your email address,
and so we can't reach out
and let you know about things like that.
So first, make sure we
know how to contact you.
Second, you know, follow our
social media enterprises.
Either follow mine or follow
Texas State's, what's going on.
Or maybe your home department has
a social media platform as well.
Coming back to speak to
students is very important.
If you've got a story to tell
that you think might encourage
students or even faculty
and staff as well, coming back
and engaging with the
department that you left
that gave you so much is useful.
And then of course, there's
always opportunities
to give financially as well there.
And I think some people think, well,
I don't have a million dollars.
I can't do what those people are doing.
But it doesn't take a million dollars.
It can start very small.
You can actually start
giving just an annual gift
that could help support a
program like FACES, for example.
Or you could donate to
a scholarship program
like our foster scholarship
program that Beth started.
Or you could, you know, start
an endowment where you create,
it's almost like a savings account.
And you put money into it periodically.
And then that endowment becomes permanent.
And we never spend that money.
We only spend the proceeds of that money.
And that endowment
becomes a permanent legacy
for the donor, from that
point forward, for the rest
of eternity, someone's
gonna get a scholarship
with your name on it or
your loved one's name on it,
depending on how you wanna name it.
So there are lots of ways
of supporting your time,
your talent, and your treasure.
Those are ways that are
great ways to give back.
But the biggest thing for us is this,
for you to stay engaged.
If alumni know what's
happening at the university,
are talking about it with their friends,
people know more about was
happening at Texas State,
that might encourage a student
to come here to attend.
We think we're really good
at changing people's lives
and we're really good at meeting
the students where they are.
And the more we can tell that story,
the more likely we are to
have impacts on people's lives
to change their lives.
So what about you?
- I mean, I love this idea
and we've had lots of our alumni come back
and engage with the School of
Social Work, even come back
and teach as per course
faculty or do guest lectures.
And likewise, I feel like
with my FACES alumni,
it's kind of like, and I didn't
wanna use this word, family.
Because I didn't want
to make any assumptions.
You know, but my students
have started using
that term about our FACES family.
And so I'm still interfacing with lots
of our FACES alums and graduates
who go on to start their own nonprofits,
go on to graduate school,
go on to get their Ph.D.s.
It's pretty spectacular.
I just had one of my FACES
alums say, are you still willing
to be on my dissertation committee?
- That's incredible.
- I'm sure I have time.
- Yeah, I'll fit it in.
- But I will fit it in
because of course I wanna
support her in that way.
It's so exciting to see her
go from foster care to a Ph.D.
- That's unbelievable.
What a great story.
(bright music)