This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast

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It's 2026! We are BACK and so bloody excited to kick off this year with one of my favourite conversations from the end of last year. Quite simply, this conversation and connection has changed my life.

About this episode
Dr. Rami Kaminski, psychiatrist and author of "The Gift of Not Belonging," explores why some people are wired as "otherverts" - individuals who cannot be shaped by group identity. This conversation reveals how otherness isn't a flaw but a genuine gift, offering insights into emotional freedom, empathy, and what happens when we stop trying to fit into systems never built for us.

Links
3 Key Takeaways
We're all born as non-belongers - Babies have no sense of nationality, religion, or group identity; cultural conditioning teaches us what to belong to, not just that we should belong.
True empathy requires eliminating yourself. Real empathy isn't putting yourself in someone's shoes, but temporarily ceasing to exist with your preconceived notions to truly see through another's eyes.
The dark side of belonging is tribalism - While community has benefits, the need for group identity enables tribalism, silent majorities, and historical atrocities when people outsource their morals to the group.

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Creators and Guests

Host
Gerry Scullion
Gerry Scullion is an Irish-born, globally recognised service designer, educator, podcaster, coach, and founder based in Dublin. With 22+ years in design, his career spans roles in interaction design, UX, and leadership positions—most notably as Head of Design at Myspace Australia/NZ and later serving clients like Cochlear, Microsoft, Aer Lingus, and government bodies  . He’s the Founder & CEO of The Human‑Centered Design Network and the voice behind This is HCD, a popular podcast and design community with over one million downloads . A committed educator, he has developed several online courses—spanning UX fundamentals, journey mapping, stakeholder mapping, prototyping, and service blueprints—as well as authoring “Service Design for Executives” on Pluralsight . A passionate keynote speaker at events like UX Scotland and Service Design Days, he shares his insights on resilience in design, ethical frameworks (“do no harm”), and embedding design within tech-led environments . Gerry is also Co‑founder and Director at Humana Design, a Dublin-based agency focusing on design research, consultancy, and enabling design transformation . Beyond design, he’s a coach and mentor to designers worldwide, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a former Councillor for Ireland . In his personal time, Gerry is a musician, barista-in-training, gardener, and family man living by the sea in Clontarf, Dublin
DK
Guest
Dr Rami Kaminski
SM
Editor
Serdar Mele
Serdar Mele is an international podcast editor.
SM
Producer
Stef Murphy
Stef Murphy, is a Dublin based podcast producer.

What is This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast?

Welcome to This is HCD – Human-Centered Design, UX & Service Design Thinking Podcast, the global show for designers, innovators, and changemakers who want to create better products, services, and experiences.

Hosted by Gerry Scullion, with over 1-million downloads worldwide.

Each episode dives into conversations with leading voices in service design, UX design, interaction design, customer experience, and design strategy. Together, we explore the methods, mindsets, and real-world stories that bring human-centered design and design thinking to life.

Whether you’re a UX researcher, service design practitioner, product manager, or design leader, you’ll find actionable insights, practical tools, and inspiration to elevate your practice and drive meaningful change.

Tune in and join the global human-centered design community — learn how to design with purpose, create inclusive solutions, and shape a more thoughtful future.

1_ Dr Rami Kaminski -
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[00:00:00] Gerry Scullion: Hey folks, and welcome back to another episode of this eight CD. My name is Jerry Scion and I'm a human-centered service design practitioner based in the beautiful city of Dublin, Ireland. Now, if you've ever walked through life and have ever, if you've ever felt like you don't really fit in, and maybe you experience the world a little bit differently or that you're constantly observing from the edges, this conversation might hit home in a powerful way.

[00:00:22] Gerry Scullion: Now, I'm joined by Dr. Rami Kaminsky, a psychiatrist and author of The Gift of Not Belonging and Founder of The Otherness Institute. Now, his work explores why some people simply cannot be shaped by group identity and why this difference isn't a flaw, but a genuine gift. Now, I was introduced to Rami's work by Rachel deas whilst we were away speaking at service design in gov.

[00:00:47] Gerry Scullion: And I bought the book instantly. I've never really felt attached to the terms introvert or extrovert. People get to meet me and they say, oh, he's quite extroverted. But believe it or not, I'm neither. I [00:01:00] now basically call myself an introvert, something that lives in the other, and I wanted to share this new way of thinking that Ramey has pioneered.

[00:01:08] Gerry Scullion: But in this episode, you'll learn why some of us are wired as non belongers and how otherness can become emotional freedom instead of pain, and why labels can help us feel seen. And the surprising truth between empathy and connection and what happens when we stop trying to fit into systems that were never really built for us.

[00:01:28] Gerry Scullion: This conversation opens up parts of myself I'd never really been truly able to articulate, and I hope it does the same for you. If you enjoy this episode, please do subscribe and if you can go along to the links in the show notes, take that survey, you know, it might actually, uh, provide some help and clarity and understanding how you see the world.

[00:01:49] Gerry Scullion: I found it to be very, very interesting. The book was fantastic. I read it and I felt like I was being seen for the first time in a very, very long time. And I'll put a link to that as well in the show [00:02:00] notes. I know you're gonna enjoy it. Let's jump straight in.

[00:02:12] Gerry Scullion: Rammy. I'm, I'm delighted to, uh, to finally get to speak with you. I bought this book with my own money. Okay. Right. I, I heard about this. I know people say like, you got these books sent for free. I bought this one myself. 'cause my good friend Rachel deas, who is a, uh, an incredible designer and a social worker based in Chicago, we were hanging out together.

[00:02:34] Gerry Scullion: We were doing a conference in, uh, Edinburgh about four weeks ago called Service Design and Government. And we had a conversation about introvert and extrovert. And, uh, she had seen something about the word introvert that, uh, led me to purchasing this book. She sent me all the details of The Otherness Institute.

[00:02:55] Gerry Scullion: So we're gonna come to all of that now in a few minutes, but maybe we'll start off, tell us [00:03:00] a little bit about yourself, where you're from and what you do.

[00:03:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. Well, so I, uh, am in New York City. Um, I am a psychiatrist. And I have a very long career, uh, yeah. Despite my youthful look. Um, I

[00:03:19] Gerry Scullion: know,

[00:03:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: but, uh, like

[00:03:20] Gerry Scullion: me,

[00:03:23] Dr Rami Kaminski: I look like twins, but sorry, I don't mean to, uh, insult you.

[00:03:28] Dr Rami Kaminski: Uh, but in any event, um, and, you know, I've been working, I started in, uh, Mount Sinai and I was working there for many years, and then I became the medical director of the agency that, uh, controls all the psychiatric or mental health in New York State. Um, and then later on, and I was also a professor of, um, psychiatry at Columbia University.

[00:03:58] Dr Rami Kaminski: And [00:04:00] basically that's, that's where I am. So I have, um. You know, my private practice where I see patients, I work in a hospital, I teach.

[00:04:10] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:04:11] Dr Rami Kaminski: Usual. Nothing special.

[00:04:13] Gerry Scullion: Lovely. And one of the things that, as I said, brought us together is this book, um, the Gift of Not Belonging. Um, and when I emailed you saying, Hey, listen, look, this book feels like it was written for me.

[00:04:26] Gerry Scullion: Um, and you were like, okay, interesting. Let's, let's talk about this. But where did that idea of otherness come from? Can you walk me through where the interest interest began and what made you first notice this pattern in people? Yeah.

[00:04:42] Dr Rami Kaminski: Well, you know, the story is so good that, uh, it's almost like made up, but that is true.

[00:04:48] Dr Rami Kaminski: So I am an introvert, you know, so I grew up, um, and usually, I mean, the first 10 years of life was just regular. [00:05:00] And then the second year, uh, second decade, you know, adolescent was very, very difficult. Um, and you know, in a way I always think that had they been, let's say, had there been something wrong, uh, pardon be kind wrong, and I would've been, you know, rejected or outcast, I probably would not have under, you know, I just think, you know, nobody likes me and that's okay.

[00:05:27] Dr Rami Kaminski: What can I do? But I was very popular, you know, I was an in person. I was, I liked, I liked school and yet I always felt that I am an outsider. And that discrepancy was for me, the number one psychological problem in my life. And so I think as I always like to joke, had they been a dermatologist. I would've never thought [00:06:00] about it at all.

[00:06:01] Dr Rami Kaminski: I would just think that I'm weird and that is my lot in life and I should, so I don't feel like I'm belonging to anything, uh, other than, but then I started seeing people in my practice that had curiously similar problems, um, to what I had, and I started thinking about it in a very different way. You know, it's not like only me, but maybe there is something here.

[00:06:30] Dr Rami Kaminski: I remember thinking this way and so I started looking into it, um, and next patient started thinking about it more and so forth. And, you know, then 40 years later, you know, I, um, felt that, you know, I have something to say and I want to say it, and I said it. Um, I mean, introvert, [00:07:00] the word itself was chosen in the last minute because I used to think about it as otherness, you know, but otherness people sounded so awkward.

[00:07:12] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah, so, so I, you know, I was with some friends, we kicked around some names, and I liked Bert very much because it does sound like vert like Yung and B um, it's really does mean a person that faces elsewhere. You know, this is the essence of my life. You, I'm never facing the group.

[00:07:38] Gerry Scullion: Uh, one of the things, like I, I see a psychologist or a, a psychotherapist actually every month, and I spoke about your work, uh, with them there a number of times over the last couple of weeks.

[00:07:50] Gerry Scullion: And their question to me, what is it about the fact that. This excites you like that, the label introvert. Um, what, why [00:08:00] does it speak to me and trying to understand that, why that sits behind it? Um, what are your thoughts on having another label for people to, uh, apply to themselves? Is that something that you're aware that, you know, it gives positives and negatives?

[00:08:18] Gerry Scullion: Is that something you've considered?

[00:08:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: Of course. I mean, you know, I worked most of my life, by the way, I am, um, a schizophrenia expert. Okay. So I'm very used to working with people, uh, that are outcast and labeled, you know, and stigmatized. So curiously, most of my advocacy work has been against stigma and labeling and so,

[00:08:45] Gerry Scullion: Hmm.

[00:08:46] Dr Rami Kaminski: Now, you know. Of the things, I think that being an introvert is helpful, and you may know it from your own experience, is that the fact that people say, let's say [00:09:00] labeled bed doesn't face me. You know, people, a lot of things, you know, there's this kind of intellectual laziness that after a while you get an idea.

[00:09:12] Dr Rami Kaminski: Let's say labeling is bad, then everybody says labeling is bad. And then you realize labeling is bad. But the, the question is, what does it replace? Give

[00:09:21] Gerry Scullion: you, Hmm.

[00:09:22] Dr Rami Kaminski: What does it replace, you know, because I used to think of myself, I'm saying it lovingly, but you know, it's weird. You know, I, I, I did have a label.

[00:09:33] Dr Rami Kaminski: It's not like I, I didn't have a label, but I just didn't know what I was, I mean, like, um, why am I so weird? Um, what, what, what is it that makes simple things? Uh, very difficult for me. Something that seemingly everyone else enjoys and I don't, and why is it? And so forth. And so, you know, the label is maybe not good for the rest of the world.[00:10:00]

[00:10:00] Dr Rami Kaminski: Uh, oh, label you want label, but, but it's very good for extroverts, you know? Yeah. Because, and that is my answer on, on a regular basis. You know, I, I want to say this, you know, Gary in a, in a, in a general way, and, you know, it's very interesting because some people say to me, you know, it's very strange, you know, it seems like you just thought about it, observed it, and wrote about it.

[00:10:26] Dr Rami Kaminski: Mm-hmm. The research was the, you know, resources, the, uh, literature and Absolutely. And I always say, you know, I am the person that writes about. No need for communal consensus. And you tell me that I should have waited first for the consensus and then allow myself to write about it. I just did it the other way around, you know?

[00:10:51] Dr Rami Kaminski: And, um, and the book, the truth of the matter is the book is really written forverts. Yeah. [00:11:00] So I was hoping, and this is what I see, and you are a very good example for that, that if you're an or someone that knows orts, you would immediately recognize yourself in it. I didn't want to write a self-help book.

[00:11:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: I didn't want to write 12 steps to recognize your or version, or I wanted to write a book that if you are an author and you read it, it'll be so poignant. And so. Real to you. You never have to talk to me. I mean, you talk to me, but you know, you don't have to call me. You don't have to see, you know, you just sit there and say, this is me.

[00:11:45] Dr Rami Kaminski: And then you start thinking about it. I should tell you that actually one of them was from Ireland. I got, I get a lot of letters all the time from people. Wow. You know, convey, I would say by now I have over, uh, [00:12:00] 1500 letters. Wow. And more than 30,000 registrants in our, you know, otherness Institute. So it must have hit some sort of,

[00:12:10] Gerry Scullion: some sort of nerve.

[00:12:11] Dr Rami Kaminski: Nerve, yeah.

[00:12:12] Gerry Scullion: Can I tell you what my response was to, um, my psychotherapist when they said, what, what does it give me? It gave me, um, the sense of being seen. Was my response like for a long time, like you just said, like I echoed a lot of the same things. I was like, you know, people would refer to some of my sort of responses to social situations as being abnormal or weird or whatever word you want to use it.

[00:12:39] Gerry Scullion: Um, so I felt seen and that's a really powerful sentiment to, to carry when you've lived your entire life of feeling like you don't belong. But the characteristics that you can list in the book, I just wanna give our listeners a little bit of an overview. Um, and if it's okay, just gimme a few minutes to read [00:13:00] some of these things out.

[00:13:00] Gerry Scullion: Like a deep individuality, a strong internal compass and sense of self that doesn't really conform to group norms. A heightened self-awareness, a constant meta consciousness, a feeling of observing oneself in relation to others. This often leads to overthinking and social interactions and sensing subtle shifts in to, or behavior.

[00:13:22] Gerry Scullion: Number three, em, uh, empath empathic sensitivity and acute ability to read emotional atmospheres and perceive unspoken tensions. The sensitivity can both be a gift for connection and insight and source of exhaustion. Definitely moral and existential depth. Uh, tendency to question why behind systems authority and convention.

[00:13:45] Gerry Scullion: People high in otherness often pursue meaning, fairness, and authenticity over approval or success. Five. Creative divergence thinking laterally and intuitively seeing patterns and possibilities. Others, miss [00:14:00] Otherness often manifests as unconventional problem solving or original thought. Number six, alienation from norms feeling outta step with mainstream culture.

[00:14:11] Gerry Scullion: Whether it's values, energy, or priorities. This may create loneliness, misunderstood intentions or a sense of being misfit. But awake. Number seven, resistance to conformity. A quiet or sometimes fierce refusal to fit into expected roles or social masks. Conformity feels like self betrayal rather than safety.

[00:14:34] Gerry Scullion: Number eight, high emotional intensity. Experiences and emotions are felt vividly. Joy and pain are both amplified. This intensity can drive purpose, empathy, and artistry, but also burnout and withdrawal. Nine. Perceptual breath. Seeing complexity in human behavior, systems and relationships. Noticing what others overlook.

[00:14:55] Gerry Scullion: This often draws other minded people to feels like psychology, art, [00:15:00] research, or design. Ding, ding, ding, ding. And number 10, search for belonging without assimilation. Longing to connect deeply while remaining fully oneself not diluted or fixed. When found, this form of belonging feels transcendent. They're the 10 characteristics that were noted as I went through this book.

[00:15:23] Gerry Scullion: Um, a lot of them, like you've got a survey on your website, uh, Rammy that when it was sent to me, I, I can't remember my score. I think it was 2 32 over two 80. Um, and I was like, well, I'm gonna put a link to that. If you, if you're listening to this, there's a link to that in the, the show notes. Or if you're watching on YouTube, it'll be in the description.

[00:15:44] Gerry Scullion: And I know they do say at the very end of the survey, put your email in here and get an email sent back to you and you get your results. That is not spam. I did it and the details that came back to me were, uh, more elaborate and high value. So I encourage you to put your email [00:16:00] address in there to get that PDF that's sent back to you.

[00:16:03] Gerry Scullion: Now going back to these pieces of those 10 characteristics, is there anything that you think that I might have missed out on, uh, Rammy in those 10 observations?

[00:16:15] Dr Rami Kaminski: No, I don't think you missed at all. I mean, you see, one of the things that I always try to explain and is that, you know, when you are an introvert, it, it's really a means not having a communal identity or a sense of belonging The way that cultural, uh, conditioning is, you know, imus in, in everyone.

[00:16:46] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, this didn't work for me. Um, now the rest of the traits have to do with this. This is the essential part, you know? Yeah. That you don't belong. You don't belong, and very strange, but you don't [00:17:00] belong. And all the rest, including some of the psychological difficulties that can come up with it, have to do with the fact that you live.

[00:17:10] Dr Rami Kaminski: World of joiners and belongers and you are not. And so much so, you know, I had an interview the other day with, um, someone in Italy and she said to me, what would be if the whole world were, there was no community at all. And I said, you know, it's very interesting. Even I cannot think how it's gonna be. I mean, I am also so into the communal aspect of humanity, so to speak, that I, I really cannot fathom how the world would be if everyone, except for one thing, I must say, and maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I said to her, is I guess there wouldn't be any wars, you know?

[00:17:55] Dr Rami Kaminski: I dunno. I mean,

[00:17:56] Gerry Scullion: why do you think that?

[00:17:59] Dr Rami Kaminski: [00:18:00] Because in order to, and that's a very good question. You see Communality. Is being not only extorted, but you know, at least seen as the only way to be or to succeed or to exist, um, is very nice and very important. I did not write a book against Communality at all, but there is the dark side, which is tribalism.

[00:18:31] Dr Rami Kaminski: And I think that without tribalism, it's going to be very hard to have a war. You know, for instance, I never see anyone as representative of anything to me. You, Gary, scholar, you and I am Rami. I mean, I am, I don't represent anything other than myself. And to me, you don't represent anything other than yourself.

[00:18:56] Dr Rami Kaminski: And so I. [00:19:00] Happen to enjoy our conversation. And I think that we, it's true that, you know, we're probably similar in this way and, you know, it does give you a sense of not belonging, but connection.

[00:19:13] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:19:14] Dr Rami Kaminski: I think that if you really look at people as individuals, and I'm not trying to be touchy feely, you know, I really think that if, if you don't group people, which I don't, you cannot hate them, you know, or love them or anything.

[00:19:29] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, for me, people, I would never look at the group and want to kill the, the group or think that they're inferior just because I don't see the group. So I think tribalism is the reason that we have wars. You know, we're taught that it's us and them. That's what, and so that is to me, the reason why if everyone was an introvert, um.

[00:19:56] Dr Rami Kaminski: Maybe people will kill each other, you know, or fight. I dunno. I'm [00:20:00] not saying that I, I can't, but there wouldn't be a war, I mean, disorganized when you do the, you know, what is called, um, outsourcing your morals to the group, you know, I only,

[00:20:12] Gerry Scullion: yeah,

[00:20:13] Dr Rami Kaminski: I only fulfill the command or whatever. So

[00:20:18] Gerry Scullion: it's interesting, like, um, when you're speaking about tribalism and our culture, uh, the acceptance of being different is something that I still see.

[00:20:29] Gerry Scullion: Culture, finding it difficult to accept. Um, what do you think is causing that for, you know, for people and for society? What is holding that back? Um, from the accepting of the other?

[00:20:47] Dr Rami Kaminski: That's a very good question. We could spend the next seven hours.

[00:20:51] Gerry Scullion: Uh, let's do it.

[00:20:52] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah, let's do it.

[00:20:54] Gerry Scullion: I don't care. Uh, 'cause I think that, as you said, like tribalism is, is one of the reasons, one of the many reasons for war.

[00:20:59] Gerry Scullion: But like, if we can learn [00:21:00] to accept the other, um, and otherness as being part of that, uh,

[00:21:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: tell it really

[00:21:06] Gerry Scullion: good to get your perspective.

[00:21:07] Dr Rami Kaminski: It's very easy. You know, when I was, I spent some time in, uh, London, uh, in the eighties, uh, some, uh, training there. And on the underground there was a poster. I had it actually, I found it in, uh, in the poster shows a group of toddlers sitting in the diapers, very sweet ro uh, and you could see they're all ethnicities and there is caption.

[00:21:40] Dr Rami Kaminski: The head, which says The only place in England where there is no racism, and was deeply, deeply affected by it. And then I realized that this is my argument, by the way, which I really think it's going to be hard [00:22:00] to neate the a, his fault. We're born with the attachment instinct.

[00:22:08] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:09] Dr Rami Kaminski: But we're not born with the understanding of belonging to anything.

[00:22:14] Dr Rami Kaminski: I mean, a group or other, there's no baby that is religious, nationalistic. Yeah. You know, a racist, they, you know, babies don't understand power status. And so we are all born non belongers. That's, that's the truth. I mean, we're not, yeah. And then with. The language and you know, become a toddler. We are being routed towards sociality.

[00:22:42] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, you have to be sociable, stand, don't you know, don't barge, don't you know this is Timmy's not yours. And share, which is very important obviously 'cause you need to get along with the rest. And extroverts are very, very friendly and nice people. It's not like, [00:23:00] you know, the two of us, I mean, I mean, nice guy.

[00:23:03] Dr Rami Kaminski: You a nice guy, it's obvious. So, but at some point it's about the age of four or five. You know, we start to learn that there is a group and we belong to this group. So there is what we call cultural conditioning. It's happened everywhere across the world. My children underwent, I did, you did everywhere.

[00:23:31] Dr Rami Kaminski: And so the cultural condition. Is not teaching the people, the children to belong per se. And let's argue that belonging is, you know, a, an instinct. I'm not sure it's true, but even if it, but you have to know what to belong. And that's where the problem starts. Because you know, your parents don't say, well Gary, you know, welcome to the world.

[00:23:55] Dr Rami Kaminski: Here are seven major religions, please choose one. [00:24:00] Uh, here's, you know, countries that you can, no, you get their morals, their ideas, their group, their everything from them, you know?

[00:24:11] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:24:11] Dr Rami Kaminski: So you need to be taught to separate between people. You need to be taught that there are us and them, you know, it's not something you are born with.

[00:24:25] Dr Rami Kaminski: Because there's no way that a baby or a child would be able to live alone until a certain age without cultural conditioning. It's just possible. We all are subjected to it. Go ahead.

[00:24:39] Gerry Scullion: But don't we need each other, so like, this is the, the caveman we needed each other to provide food and shelter and all of those intrinsic things that are really important for survival if we're all happy to live on our own.

[00:24:56] Dr Rami Kaminski: Is

[00:24:56] Gerry Scullion: there,

[00:24:57] Dr Rami Kaminski: you see the, the, the thing about, you know, [00:25:00] otherness is not about living on your own or being, uh, unattached or unaffiliated. Mm-hmm. It's about that. It's about the idea that you should share your identity with your group. That's what you're told. You know, you told you have to give up your own needs for the needs of the group, your group, okay?

[00:25:25] Gerry Scullion: Ah,

[00:25:26] Dr Rami Kaminski: and sooner or later you start having a sense of shared fate. You know, at the end of the book, I write about old age and death, you know, and the idea is that I think many people join the group because they feel a sense of shared faith and safety. I mean, I don't feel safety in the group, but I, I can understand it.

[00:25:49] Dr Rami Kaminski: The problem that when you really, really look at it, and you really strip it down to something that cannot be denied is you're born alone. [00:26:00] You live alone, and you die alone. It's undeniable. Even if everyone around you loves you very much, they're not gonna die with you. They're going to you. And, and so the idea that the group is leaving you behind is very scary to people.

[00:26:15] Dr Rami Kaminski: No. But, but you asked, um, another question, which is, um, isn't communality important? And the truth is yes, it was very important when we were hunters, gatherers, and probably throughout years, but the communality was more people around you, your family, your, your, I mean, it was your group. Now we don't need it.

[00:26:43] Dr Rami Kaminski: I mean, I, I get my milk without milking the cows or, you know, annoying the milk. Yeah, no, I, I just, so we don't need this level of, and actually most of the belonging now, especially after 25 years old, is virtual. You know, you have kinds of [00:27:00] groups that you can belong to and so on and so forth. We don't need it as much as we needed it at in the beginning.

[00:27:06] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:27:06] Dr Rami Kaminski: And certainly, again, I want to highlight it. It's not the fact that they want us to belong that. That's benign. It's what they want us to belong to. Yeah.

[00:27:19] Gerry Scullion: So now you call the book The Gift of Not Belonging. Okay. But I listed out 10 characteristics, um, one of which was belonging, I believe. Why did you call out Not belonging as the title of the book?

[00:27:38] Gerry Scullion: That's question number one. And then second two is, is kind of helping us unpack what it means to belong. So I'd love to understand why, why the book is called The Gift of Not Belonging, first of all,

[00:27:52] Dr Rami Kaminski: because you know, it's still true. As you said before, we think of [00:28:00] belonging as something so essential Yeah.

[00:28:05] Dr Rami Kaminski: To the human society, that the idea of not belonging is always seen as a. I mean, there are people who don't belong schizophrenic patients. There are people that have neuro neurological cognitive problems. People who are strange in quote unquote, in other words, sometimes it's just because of the skin of your, you know, the color of your skin, whatever is the, the reason people don't belong to groups.

[00:28:32] Dr Rami Kaminski: But usually it's not because they don't want to, it's because they, at some point, perhaps very early, were expelled from the group, uh, you know, extroverts or non belongers. Like me, I never, I never made the shift to belong to anything. I stayed the same way I was when I was four. You know, I wanted to belong, by the way, I did not have any philosophical ideas at the age of four.[00:29:00]

[00:29:01] Dr Rami Kaminski: I very much wanted to belong. I did everything to belong. Uh, yeah, but I couldn't. And so there is a segment of the population that is my argument. They don't belong by. D of being able to be brainwashed by cultural conditioning.

[00:29:20] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:29:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: I can tell you, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts why we doing research on this, but the, the bottom line is that non belonging by design or by desire, just not belonging because you don't belong is considered suspect.

[00:29:36] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know?

[00:29:37] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:29:37] Dr Rami Kaminski: There's something strange about you not belong, even though you're nice and friendly and I'm, I mean, I live in a community. I'm not, you know, a strange loner, you know?

[00:29:49] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:29:50] Dr Rami Kaminski: But the idea that I'm not, I have no religion, I have no nationality. That's why I'm, you know, when you ask me about my background, it's very hard [00:30:00] for me to talk about it because I can tell you about me.

[00:30:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: But the idea that I was like, I was born here and grew up there a mean list to me.

[00:30:10] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely. I noticed that.

[00:30:12] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. By

[00:30:12] Gerry Scullion: the way, I noticed.

[00:30:13] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. So, so that is, that is the thing that I wanted to say. Not belonging has been suspect.

[00:30:21] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:30:21] Dr Rami Kaminski: Um, and go ahead.

[00:30:24] Gerry Scullion: And it's on that, like, whenever we ask people that question, they're looking to build up a sort of a tapestry of safeness of safety.

[00:30:34] Gerry Scullion: Like saying, okay, I can understand a little bit about them. And the second thing on that point was whenever I, and I've been like literally your biggest kinda supporter telling everyone about this, this book. Okay. Um, and when I say to them, they say, well, what is it? And I says, well, it's usually the sense of just not feeling connected or belonging.

[00:30:55] Gerry Scullion: And I said it to one of my, um, my son's [00:31:00] friend's dads who were in the community as we were watching the football training going on. And I noticed just a small little kind of facial reaction that I was like, they may perceive that as being, um, I, I'm not appreciative of feeling welcome. And it's one of the, the slights that I've noticed for people kind of saying, oh, Jerry doesn't belong.

[00:31:22] Gerry Scullion: Like, and they cannot, they, they can't believe it. Almost like they've got some sort of restriction bias that's happening where they're like, really? Like, why wouldn't you feel like you belong? And it's almost like it's a slight. What do you think is happening in that scenario? And I know it's hypothetical 'cause you can't put yourself in my shoes, but when you say to people that you struggle with the sense of belonging in the world, um, it just seems to have this kind of.

[00:31:52] Gerry Scullion: Like shocking factor, like how can you not feel like you belong?

[00:31:57] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. But you know, I, I'll, I'll [00:32:00] answer in a slightly different way.

[00:32:01] Gerry Scullion: Hmm.

[00:32:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: You see, one of the gifts of not belonging is that you really don't need to, um, lead your life by consensus, by book, by, uh, the group validation.

[00:32:20] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:32:21] Dr Rami Kaminski: So, you know, I'll give you a funny story.

[00:32:25] Dr Rami Kaminski: Uh, if you don't mind, I don't know how much time we have, but ah,

[00:32:27] Gerry Scullion: let's go.

[00:32:28] Dr Rami Kaminski: Okay. I'm, it's

[00:32:29] Gerry Scullion: Friday,

[00:32:30] Dr Rami Kaminski: I I time. So here's the, here's what maybe we should, I mean, it's later by you, but anyhow, you know, I must say, I know it's corny, but my most favorite, favorite drink. His guness and I in Dublin once made a very big full of ice after a few.

[00:32:53] Dr Rami Kaminski: But, um, so, you know, the story is as false. I go, I, [00:33:00] I like, you know, as, as an introvert, I like to be, you know, quirky.

[00:33:07] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:07] Dr Rami Kaminski: I think it's, it's, um, it's a, it's a mechanism to deal with life. So I'm, I'm, I'm really a very serious, you know, professor and live normal life, someone bohemian live with a musician, but, but I like to be quirky and to say crazy things sometimes just so it deflects, you know, I say, you know, Kaminsky is a character I sometimes safe, you know?

[00:33:33] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. I mean, so I came to one of the lectures one day and I said, guys. It was a group of residents. And I said, I have great news. And they said, what? I said, I found out that I can fly. And they say, what? I said, yeah, I can fly. I can fly like a bird. I can, you know, I won't [00:34:00] really. I said, yeah. And they said, well, show us.

[00:34:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: And I said, no, no, no. I, I didn't really haven't tried it yet. I just know I can do it. And they said, what do you mean? And I said, you know, so long as I don't need to convince anyone that I can fly, okay. And I just say this to myself, I can enjoy for the rest of my life, the possibility that I can fly. I don't need convince you.

[00:34:32] Dr Rami Kaminski: I don't need to show you, and I don't need to convince myself because I already decided. So I'm gonna go on, on a fifth floor window and try to fly, you know? But I walk around with this wonderful sense of being able to fly one day if I want.

[00:34:48] Gerry Scullion: Yeah,

[00:34:48] Dr Rami Kaminski: of course. It's just a metaphor, but the idea is that there's really no reason to think about yourself.

[00:34:54] Dr Rami Kaminski: Something that is because of some sort of, uh, outside Morris or [00:35:00] ideas. So if people say to me, what do you mean you don't belong? I say, I don't belong. And they say, how can you not belong? I say, well, I can't. You know? I, I, yeah. And, and that is my advice to all introverts in the world and other people, and not just introverts, is so long as you don't have to convince anyone about anything.

[00:35:24] Dr Rami Kaminski: You can feel and think, whatever you. It's when you start to convince them and they say, what do you mean? No, you know, that's what I say to people, you know, how, what do you mean? You just wrote it? Yeah, I just wrote it. You know?

[00:35:37] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:35:38] Dr Rami Kaminski: You don't like it. I'm sorry. You know,

[00:35:41] Gerry Scullion: that's the way it is.

[00:35:43] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. Go ahead.

[00:35:44] Gerry Scullion: So you mentioned about, about belonging and like, I, I struggle with belonging as a, as a kind of a thing because I don't, I've, I don't believe I've ever really felt it. Like, you know, when I look at my [00:36:00] own life from people who don't identify as introvert, what does belonging mean to them?

[00:36:08] Dr Rami Kaminski: Belonging to them means that they're part of a group, you know?

[00:36:13] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:36:14] Dr Rami Kaminski: It could be all kinds of groups. Uh, it could be your family, it could be your village, whatever. Or it could be, you know, people that. Believe in this or that, and all over the world nowadays, the possibilities of groups is, uh, you know, not limited to almost anything.

[00:36:32] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:36:32] Dr Rami Kaminski: And so the, you know, for me, the idea of belonging is not about connection.

[00:36:46] Dr Rami Kaminski: I think many people confuse connection with belonging. The only difference between me and other people in my everyday life is that I don't have friends just [00:37:00] because I happen to work with them for 20 years. Or for me, a friend is someone that I choose as a friend.

[00:37:07] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:37:08] Dr Rami Kaminski: And so. And you know, that is also something that sometimes cause problems, you know, because I am affable and nice guy, you know, people like me, I'm like them, you know?

[00:37:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: And, but I don't consider them as friends, much like I don't consider another woman. As you know, my wife, you know, I love my wife and we've been together for many years and you know, I chose her and she chose me. We not own each other, we don't belong to each other, but we have a very deep connection.

[00:37:43] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:37:44] Dr Rami Kaminski: So off of us, the only thing that is different is that you probably, you may have political ideas and you know, so, but ideologies, but you don't belong to a movement. You're unlikely to be going out in on [00:38:00] barricades or what you do. What introverts do is being a canary in a coal mine. You know,

[00:38:09] Gerry Scullion: I love it.

[00:38:10] Gerry Scullion: And, and one of the things where I said, I feel seen because, you know, in a, in a world of joiners, as you say in the cover of the book, whenever, um, somebody may have expressed, uh, a kind of an interest to become a friend or whatever it was, and I'm like, well, I, I don't wanna be friends. Like, you know, I always thought that might have been me just being weird.

[00:38:29] Gerry Scullion: Okay. But as you said, when you're an introvert, you very carefully select who you let in into your world. And now that I know that it doesn't feel as, uh, as weird, I guess, or as awkward, uh, as I would've felt before knowing this book. So I, I thank you for that reassurance because, um, I, I, I do come up with some challenges when I tell people about it.

[00:38:56] Gerry Scullion: Like I say, listen, this is, this is the way, uh, [00:39:00] I feel about these scenarios and they don't feel, and I say, well, that's okay. That's okay. You can feel that. And for me, in those scenarios. It's reassuring. And I think that's the, the biggest testament of, uh, the validity of the research that's, that's contained within that.

[00:39:17] Gerry Scullion: Um, I have a few other questions that I wanna ask you about. Like, our listeners are primarily human-centered design, uh, and service design practitioners. And what that means is we help organizations identify the, the true thing that people are looking to get out of an organization, albeit a, a government, to ensure that the services, the public services that they're accessing to complete a task or a job that they want to get done, whether that be your tax payment to your healthcare, that it's equitable and it's fair, and it's ultimately easy to use and accessible for all now that we kind of, uh, have a better understanding of otherness.

[00:39:58] Gerry Scullion: Um, and as you said, it's a [00:40:00] natural part of, of being a human. How might organizations, whether that's institutions or workplaces, how might they design environments that value, um, the difference rather than suppress it?

[00:40:17] Dr Rami Kaminski: That's, that's a very, very important question. Um, and I, I don't think that I can answer off the top of my head because in

[00:40:27] Gerry Scullion: 20 words or less, rammy, please

[00:40:30] Dr Rami Kaminski: gonna shoot myself.

[00:40:31] Dr Rami Kaminski: Uh, no. The, I, I, I say why? Because thing is, I've always thought about it from the other way around. So,

[00:40:39] Gerry Scullion: okay,

[00:40:39] Dr Rami Kaminski: where's an vert? What are the work situation or environment? What is the work environment that, you know, helps you to thrive? You know? Yeah. Which I have all kinds of ideas about. Um, how does a organization, an organization, uh.[00:41:00]

[00:41:01] Dr Rami Kaminski: Organize their, their services, let's say. So they're human friendly, you know?

[00:41:08] Gerry Scullion: Mm.

[00:41:09] Dr Rami Kaminski: Um, I don't think it has, you know, it has to do a lot about, I thinks,

[00:41:18] Gerry Scullion: yeah.

[00:41:18] Dr Rami Kaminski: And I know it for a fact, you know, I don't want to take your time on that, but I, I'll tell you, I, I write it on in the book, so it's about the second chance program that I, I once got.

[00:41:31] Dr Rami Kaminski: And so the idea is as follows, and I'll say it very quickly, there's a third of the schizophrenic patients are called treatment non-responders, because no matter what you do, they don't respond to treatment, remain symptomatic, and end up oftentimes in long-term hospitals. And so. I had the schizophrenia, I was running the schizophrenia center, a research center at Mount Sinai, [00:42:00] right.

[00:42:00] Dr Rami Kaminski: Prestigious felt very good about, and I wanted to dedicate my life to people that are not responders and PET scan everything that, you know, we could throw with, um, technology. And then one day I realized that I'm making a terrible mistake, which is, it's really not the patients who do not respond, the patients are not the wrong thing.

[00:42:29] Dr Rami Kaminski: It's the medications, you know, and they don't respond to the same medications that work for 70% of the patients. But it's not because they don't want to respond, it's because that's not the medication for that.

[00:42:44] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:42:45] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, percent. And without getting into a very, very deep, uh, discussion, I started, I decided to start something called the Second Chance Program, which is going to be going to hospitals where people are [00:43:00] housed for sometimes over 2030.

[00:43:02] Dr Rami Kaminski: So I'm sure in Ireland it happens the same way. Um, and revisit their condition. I mean, sometimes they've been there for 20 years and things have changed, you know, in terms of medication, but they never get a refresh. Uh, look, their situation. But the interesting part was, and that's what I wanted to say. It, it, it, I did it.

[00:43:24] Dr Rami Kaminski: I, I, that's why I became the, uh, chief psychiatrist. I went to Albany, which. You don't know, but it's like a very not nice place to live. Um, and that's the, uh, capital of the state of New York. And, and, and did it. That's a long story. But, but the interesting thing was, and that is what I wanted to say, is that I had almost everyone around me, even though I didn't ask anything for it.

[00:43:52] Dr Rami Kaminski: I didn't ask for extra money, uh, funding or I said, let's see if we can do it as part of the [00:44:00] work. Natural.

[00:44:01] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:44:04] Dr Rami Kaminski: I would say everyone almost fiercely tried to convince me that not to do it because it's not gonna work. And you know, luckily, even though I was much younger, uh, maybe brazen, I dunno, but luckily I didn't.

[00:44:22] Dr Rami Kaminski: I'm not, that is never for me a reasonable to do it. You know? So, and I did it in very, very successful all over the world, and, you know, yeah. I, I, I've been out of it for 20 years from, from this project. Yeah. It's been going on very well, and, and it made sense, you know, and now nobody, I mean, it's a very different way of looking at schizophrenic patients because you don't blame them for not responding.

[00:44:49] Gerry Scullion: Absolutely.

[00:44:51] Dr Rami Kaminski: And that is what Ultras can do. You could, you could look at the world in a different way. So let's say someone like you, [00:45:00] you walk into a situation and you say to yourself, everyone says the water cooler needs to be here. I'm just stupid example.

[00:45:09] Gerry Scullion: Yeah, yeah.

[00:45:10] Dr Rami Kaminski: But I see that, you know, and because what happens is once you belong to a group.

[00:45:17] Dr Rami Kaminski: And there is a consensus about something you may live the rest of your life, let's say 60 more years, never questioning it, you know? And that is the problem. Allbirds always question it.

[00:45:31] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:45:31] Dr Rami Kaminski: Not because, yeah, go ahead.

[00:45:33] Gerry Scullion: No, I was gonna say that the 10 characteristics that I kind of pulled out, a lot of them fall into the criteria of what I do for a living, which is why I, I went for dinner with my best friend from school recently, and he was like, you're the only person I know who does something for a job that truly loves it.

[00:45:54] Gerry Scullion: And, um, I feel blessed in many ways that I, I followed my own path in service [00:46:00] design, but a lot of the characteristics that you speak about there are intrinsic to service designers. So I believe there's a lot of people listening to this that may. Identify as other, uh, and it's something that I wanted to call out, hence why I was like, so interested in getting you on the podcast.

[00:46:19] Gerry Scullion: Now, one of the key skills, one of many key skills as a researcher is the, um, I guess accessing empathy if you want. Like, I'm, I'm not a major lover of, of the word empathy in, in design, but we talk a lot about trying to understand the other, uh, and I guess I'd keen to understand, um, does true empathy require us to connect with our own otherness first?

[00:46:49] Gerry Scullion: So, is otherness, does it exist in everybody? Is is that, that's the question

[00:46:56] Dr Rami Kaminski: that is, well, I can answer in [00:47:00] two ways. It's very good. You ask very, very good questions, Gary.

[00:47:03] Gerry Scullion: Thank you.

[00:47:05] Dr Rami Kaminski: I'm not surprised, but still. So two things. First of all, I think we're all. You know, you know, we're all born non belongers and we need to be taught to belong.

[00:47:19] Dr Rami Kaminski: And even more so, as I said, we need to be taught to, to belong to. And, uh, so that is one of the things that, you know, non belongers, uh,

[00:47:30] Gerry Scullion: yeah,

[00:47:30] Dr Rami Kaminski: just, and, and so obviously, you know, I say to people sometimes people are not com or communal, but you know, free thinkers and, uh, thoughtful people. And I don't have to be an introvert to be a free thinker, but they, they, I ask them, and you know, I say, why don't you try like meditation 15 minutes, try to sit back and think about what would've.[00:48:00]

[00:48:01] Dr Rami Kaminski: Eight groups and what would've happened had you not belonged them. You know, just trying to fantasize how it used to be. You know, when we were young, very young and totally un littered by the Morris and so, so forth. We were just floating there and being, you know, I don't know what, how we were, because in a preverbal, you know, I, by the way, that's another thing I write about thats are much easier for me to have preverbal thinking.

[00:48:33] Dr Rami Kaminski: I don't necessarily have to think in words. I can again talk about it for a long time. And if you start thinking about, you'll see that a lot of your thought, because most people think in words. And so what happens is that let, let's say the word love, you know, it's so bastardized. You know, I love my car, I love my wife, I love my children, I love sunset.

[00:48:55] Dr Rami Kaminski: It's, you know, those words are meaningless. And [00:49:00] always unsatisfying, you know, in, in that way. Um, but what the, what the people who don't belong, uh, what they can teach, uh, the other people is if something doesn't work, let's say in an organization, they, many consultants, you know, I can tell you a joke about consultants, but it's a little bit, uh, of colors.

[00:49:29] Dr Rami Kaminski: So maybe off, off, but, uh,

[00:49:31] Gerry Scullion: take that off, Mike.

[00:49:34] Dr Rami Kaminski: But, um, you know, you get consultants and, uh, they come and they, uh, you know, they have consultants, uh, handbook and consultants, this, and, and everybody has to be, you know, 20% this. And introverts actually see something that nobody ever, nobody, I mean, that everyone saw, but they didn't.

[00:49:57] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, think about it this way. We [00:50:00] live, most people live with, uh, partial blindness. You know, we add blind spots to our vision of the world unnecessarily. So just because we want to be like everyone else, you know? And when you don't be like everyone else and when you cannot be even more so, I'm not a real, you know, counterculture or something like that.

[00:50:25] Dr Rami Kaminski: You look at my life, there's nothing about any, you don't do drugs. I don't mean nothing that is unusual about me except for the fact that I don't belong and I don't do things and I don't see things like everyone else does.

[00:50:38] Gerry Scullion: God, I love that. Yeah. I love the, the blind reference, like all these things that we carry with us, like being able to see the full picture is one of the, the blessings that I had.

[00:50:52] Gerry Scullion: You know, when I started to see a psychologist and then a psychotherapist. Um, and one of the, the pieces that [00:51:00] I often question to my own psychotherapist is this, um, this ability to reflect that I have, uh, that I've learned, but also it's a frustration that others don't go on this journey too. And the ability to be able to enter, um, therapy if you want.

[00:51:22] Gerry Scullion: That's the term the Americans use. Um, and this struggle that I have, like why wouldn't, why can't others go on this journey as well to learn more about themselves? 'cause I believe that's one of the most powerful things that you can go on as a human and really understanding your mind and understanding our own position within the systems

Yeah.

[00:51:43] Gerry Scullion: That we're part of. Um, and I'd love to get your thoughts on that. Like, you know, like. How it's probably not our place to encourage people to go on their own journey. Everyone's their own person. I get that. But I'd love to get your thoughts on what might be holding people [00:52:00] back and what can we do to, I guess, uh, open up the channels a little bit more for people to become more self-reflective in terms of what they bring to the systems and so, and, and culture and society and so forth.

[00:52:12] Dr Rami Kaminski: Well, I, I'll answer. I like to always give a, a vivid example. I think it, you know, so I'll, I'll give you an example. I have a patient who is autistic.

[00:52:24] Gerry Scullion: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:24] Dr Rami Kaminski: He suffers from, I mean, he's very intelligent, uh, but his communication is, you know, flawed. And he is a great guy, and I like him a lot.

[00:52:40] Dr Rami Kaminski: He said to me one day. So I, when we first started, he was very, um, not suspicious, but as a guarded, you know, and I know it because when somebody has seen 10 psychiatrists, the 11th psychiatrist is already tainted with everything possible. You know, I'm used to it. So I saw him and [00:53:00] um, I said, and he said, you know, blah, blah.

[00:53:02] Dr Rami Kaminski: I said, you know, I'm a specialist on outsiders. I said, I actually wrote a book about it. He later he did? Yeah. And he said, yeah. And he said, really? I said, yeah, here's the book, you know? And he said, oh, he didn't read it, but he went home and the next week he came and he said, you know what? I just realized something.

[00:53:28] Dr Rami Kaminski: And I said, what? He said, I'm just not a joiner. I'm not a joiner. I'm not a joiner. I said, yes, you're not a joiner. I'm also not the joiner. I said. He said, you know what, Dr. Kaminski, I wanna tell you something. And that is, I get goosebumps what I think about because it's so beautiful. He said, you are the first psychiatrist, and he's, he is in his late twenties.

[00:53:50] Dr Rami Kaminski: He started seeing psychiatrist, the age of three. He said, you're the only psychiatrist, the first psychiatrist, that doesn't try [00:54:00] to get me to fit in. Wow. And that is, that is the secret. And by the way, accepting all of my patients. I never try to get, I mean, it's, it's a journey that you have yourself. The idea that you know, you have a host of people that cover the same territory as you because they were born.

[00:54:22] Dr Rami Kaminski: It means meaningless. If you wanna be a good therapist and a good psychiatrist. In my opinion, your aim is not, should not be trying to get someone to fit in. But rather to, you know, be able to, um, you know, look at their own, um, issues or anything that they need to. And that is what is very important about empathy.

[00:54:49] Dr Rami Kaminski: That is for Yeah. Because most people offer the kind of empathy that is very, um, [00:55:00] shallow. Yeah. And we actually ask each other apo communion say, put my, put yourself in my shoes. What? That's a big mistake because you'd still be Gary in my shoes. You know, you're not

[00:55:14] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:55:15] Dr Rami Kaminski: Me. And so, and actually if you're in my shoes, you may start thinking, if I were him, I would've done it better.

[00:55:24] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know? And so people,

[00:55:25] Gerry Scullion: okay. Yeah.

[00:55:27] Dr Rami Kaminski: The empathy that an can bring is becoming. If you even have 20 seconds where you eliminate yourself and you stop existing with your preconceived notions and bullshit and just look at the person and listen to them and try to see the world really through their eyes, not you looking through their eyes.

[00:55:53] Dr Rami Kaminski: They, you can be understand the person amazingly well, and you can always say [00:56:00] something that will be at least corresponding to how they really feel, you know?

[00:56:06] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[00:56:07] Dr Rami Kaminski: And I think that is, that is, that's very

[00:56:09] Gerry Scullion: powerful. I just wanna know that question. Like, you know, we've spoken about otherness, we've spoken about belonging, um, the world we're in right now, it seems like there's the, the gap is getting bigger.

[00:56:22] Gerry Scullion: Okay. Um, and I'd love to hear from you, like what, what gives you hope at the moment that we're moving towards a world that really celebrates. Difference rather than fear.

[00:56:36] Dr Rami Kaminski: Well, the assumption is that

[00:56:38] Gerry Scullion: there's hope.

[00:56:39] Dr Rami Kaminski: There is hope. Yeah.

[00:56:40] Gerry Scullion: Please tell me there's hope.

[00:56:42] Dr Rami Kaminski: There is hope. There is hope, I promise you. Uh, but if

[00:56:45] Gerry Scullion: not, just lie.

[00:56:48] Dr Rami Kaminski: But, uh, yeah. I mean, I tell you, the problem is as false. I think that that, um, you know, obviously with, [00:57:00] uh, internet and soft support, um, it's, you know, the, it's easier to belong to a group or to find someone, you know?

[00:57:08] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. So, and I think that actually the world is becoming more and more conducive to tribalism rather than the other way around, you know? Yeah.

[00:57:18] Gerry Scullion: Radicalization as well.

[00:57:20] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. Well, but that's, but you see, that is the problem that we have, is that I think that one of the things that makes me happy. Literally, you know, the book just came out three months ago and the, the, the conversation changed in a, in a, in a very strange way.

[00:57:38] Dr Rami Kaminski: I mean, I did not think it's going to become so quote unquote hot and everybody is going to talk about it, and there's going to be so much buzz. And I, I didn't think so. I mean, I certainly did not, I mean, I'm happy, but I didn't write it this way. But the interesting thing, which I said to people before, and I say to you too, is that [00:58:00] interestingly, the idea that of emotional self-sufficiency and not fitting in

[00:58:09] Gerry Scullion: mm-hmm.

[00:58:11] Dr Rami Kaminski: The Zuckerberg universe is restfulness, you know, you should always fit in, you know, there is a group and you have friends, you know, you have 2000 friends.

[00:58:29] Dr Rami Kaminski: The idea that there are going to be many young people that get excited by the idea of emotional freedom, of being untethered to the group and thinking for yourself and perhaps not needing other people to counsel you all the time. It's, that is the thing that gives me some hope. You know, it's very interesting.

[00:58:50] Dr Rami Kaminski: I, I had not expected it. I thought most people would, I mean, maybe most people would poo it, you know, that's okay. But I, I didn't think it's going to be [00:59:00] exciting to people that are, you know, just reading about. So, yeah, absolutely. Who knows? Maybe, maybe we should, and I'm not saying it in a self-serving way, but, or maybe it's self-serving, but, but I do think so it's, we really should exfo the idea of having some people that see things in a different way.

[00:59:21] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, are they right? Are they, maybe not, but. It's a different way because currently, I mean, when you look what's happening, let's say in the United States now, you know the thing that I find to be very, very puzzling is beyond, you know, the Trumpian dystopia and you, the thing we have now ice, you know, those people that are, and they go on the street with a full regalia.

[00:59:55] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, you think they're commandos in Somalia or something and they jump [01:00:00] on, you know, little old lady that is, happens to be, uh, undocumented immigrant. And so from, they, they handcuff them, they throw them on the floor, they take them away without any ability to call anybody. And you know, they wanted like Mexican people to send to the Sudan.

[01:00:21] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know? Now the fact that. Somebody like Trump can have people that are willing to do those things. Uh, we've seen broad history. It's not unusual, but, you know, there are many people I've never seen a, an ice uh, operation, but there are many people that do, you know, and you know, if you stop the ice, let's say I jump on the ice person and not beat them, but stand passively with three other people and not allow them to take this person out or take the person, which some people do, and [01:01:00] we have done in a way, take them into our house.

[01:01:03] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, you cannot come in and take them away. Why is it that everybody doesn't do it? You know, there really no, there's no real danger. What, what's gonna happen maybe in the future as that why you be executed for trying to help them and you know why it is. That is my, my theory. It's because the people that walk around in America and they see the ice people attacking a Mexican immigrant, they cannot help because of this, you know, teaching us that we have, we belong to a group, they, they feel is an unconscious relationship in connection to the American agents, ICE agents than the Mexican.

[01:01:54] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[01:01:55] Dr Rami Kaminski: There's no other way to explain it, you know? Uh, why don't you, you know, when you look at, [01:02:00] there's, if you, if you look at, uh, YouTube and do Berlin, the last days, you know,

[01:02:08] Gerry Scullion: yeah.

[01:02:08] Dr Rami Kaminski: 12 years after everybody ran around and was happy and, you know, whatever. The rubble, you know, millions of people have been killed.

[01:02:19] Dr Rami Kaminski: And, you know, little things like, imagine you wanna do your dissertation and you'll never be able to finish it because of World War ii. I mean, the things that people, and yet nobody said anything. You know, there were a few verts who said, like, Bonhoeffer and they killed it, you know? Yeah. And people were coed into going with those people with the Nazis.

[01:02:45] Dr Rami Kaminski: I mean, how can it be? Why they all, they were always a small minority.

[01:02:52] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[01:02:52] Dr Rami Kaminski: But not a majority. Even at the height of the World War ii, there were only 5 million outta 80 million members [01:03:00] of the, uh, Nazi party. Wow. But, you know, it's a silent majority. Then I think, Gary, maybe it, maybe it's true. Maybe it, but I think that.

[01:03:14] Dr Rami Kaminski: If we have the ability to show that there is a validity in being a non belonger, okay. I think we can help people see, you know, that being the silent majority

[01:03:35] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[01:03:36] Dr Rami Kaminski: Is very, very silly. Because invariably, if you look at history everywhere, it's always those people, the group mind, the, the group thinkers, the HIV mind that had a fanatic spasm with a unrippled horrible monster at the top [01:04:00] and they follow.

[01:04:03] Dr Rami Kaminski: And all the other people that see, I mean most, I don't know anyone. A right wing person, you know, New York City, and I'm now in my country home in Massachusetts. Most, you know, everybody's, there's no one I know that ever voted, you know, for Trump. If I did, I wouldn't probably see them again. But there many people like that in the United States, and yet they're coward into insane.

[01:04:30] Dr Rami Kaminski: Yeah. And the things that are happening now is unbelievable. And, and follow the, the, the textbook, you know, uh, of dictatorships and so forth. And yet the, the silent majority don't say anything. And I think it's because they feel that there is a, you know, there's no, I mean, I don't wanna say about, you know, any other country, but they're not, there's not such thing as United States.

[01:04:54] Dr Rami Kaminski: There's not such thing as Germany or Somalia. There's no such thing as money. [01:05:00] There's not such thing as power. All of those things are conventions that we invented. They don't exist in nature, you know, and we invented them and we abide by them mindlessly because we were taught that this is right and this is wrong with it.

[01:05:21] Dr Rami Kaminski: And just how it happens. It's like religion. They're like, it

[01:05:24] Gerry Scullion: is

[01:05:24] Dr Rami Kaminski: 800 gods. You know? Who's right? You know? Yeah. How come, you know, dare God is stronger? You know, it's silly. I mean, the whole idea is I'm not against, you know, religion. You could do whatever you want, but the idea that there is something that unites people that really doesn't, it's not there.

[01:05:42] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know? I want to say something, you know, Yuval Noah Harari, you know, you know him as you as a, as a, a. He's a great thinker. I highly recommend too. But he once wrote that if he, you know, went to a monkey that has a banana [01:06:00] and say to the monkey, listen. Thousand dollars in cash. The monkey will think you're crazy or you think he's an idiot.

[01:06:13] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know, you wanna give him paper for a banana, you know? So, but, but that is true. That is how we think, you know, we assign value, importance, and value to things that are not, you know, for me, a flag is a piece of cloth, you know? Yeah. That's the, we imbue in symbolism, communal symbolism, things that don't exist, you know?

[01:06:40] Gerry Scullion: Yeah.

[01:06:40] Dr Rami Kaminski: And we are, there's, let's say you are willing to, not you, not me, but to be killed for something, you know, just because you were born there, what happened if you were, let's say, adopted at birth by, you know, Syrian parents? Okay. You probably would be Muslim and [01:07:00] be, you know, and they'll say, oh, here's, you know, the red hand, you know, Syrian, they are actually, and you'll be Syrian.

[01:07:08] Dr Rami Kaminski: You'll kill, you know, for Syria, you'll die for, I mean, all the things. Yeah, it's, we see we're not born like this. That is my argument. And it's true. Go and look at any baby. If you find a baby that is religious, that is nationalistic, that believes in race, that wants money, you know, you go with the baby, say, here's money, gimme the bottle.

[01:07:33] Dr Rami Kaminski: You know,

[01:07:35] Gerry Scullion: we, we impart those things onto, onto the young. It's, it's a really, um, it's, it's a fascinating conversation. Um, Rammy, I am conscious of time. Um, but what I will do is I, I, I wrap every episode up on my podcast by thanking people for giving me their time, energy, and just their vulnerability really, because it's unscripted.[01:08:00]

[01:08:00] Gerry Scullion: Um, I, I go with the questions that I feel to try and get as a, a natural conversation as possible. Um, but if you are listening to the podcast, I highly encourage you, even if you don't identify with otherness or, or vert. I encourage you to read this book, the, the Gift of Not Belonging. It's, it's a fantastic book.

[01:08:21] Gerry Scullion: It's, as I said, it helped me feel seen and I might do some wonders for you as well. Try and get another perspective. Rami, thank you so much for giving me all your time and energy today. It's been absolutely fascinating. I, I loved every second speaking with you. Thank you so much

[01:08:34] Dr Rami Kaminski: and let's hope it's not the last time we speak.

[01:08:36] Gerry Scullion: For sure. For sure. Rami, thank you again.