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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the
Speaker 2: Welcome to Honest Money.
I'm your host, Anja, and today's
episode is brought to you by hard block.
Anja: Welcome back to Honest Money Show.
Joining me today is Fernando
Nikolic , and Fernando is the
founder of Perception and I'll let
him introduce what the company does.
Welcome to the show.
Fernando: Thanks so much, Anja.
Well, you're one of the few
hosts that's managed to pronounce
my last name, uh, correctly.
I hear so many, uh, different, uh,
versions of my last name when I
get introduced, uh, on, on shows.
So this is a refreshing, uh, perfect one
take, uh, on, on the nickel last name.
Thank you.
Uh, yeah, no, um, yeah, I'm,
I'm the founder of Perception.
It's, um, it's, um, it's a
data intelligence company,
uh, focused on narratives, so.
You know, um, I gather everything that is
of importance in the digital assets, uh,
industry, uh, with a focus on Bitcoin,
of course, but it's, um, everything from
uh, tweets, um, uh, panels, conferences,
earnings calls, uh, analysts, uh, um,
research, 650 sources plus, um, gathering
everything that is, uh, happening
in real time about our industry.
And it detects trends.
It, it, um, analyze the sentiment,
uh, across the entire spectrum.
And, uh, it plugs directly into,
um, AI tools like Cloud Chat, GBT,
uh, Google Gemini, and so forth.
So, uh, this is, um, this is a company
that I founded about five or six
months ago after we were spending
four years plus as the VP of Marketing
and communications at Blockstream.
One of the biggest, uh, Bitcoin
infrastructure companies in the space.
Uh, CEO is Adam back.
And, uh, yeah, it's, um, when I
was working there, I saw this, hmm.
Kind of like a big shift in how we consume
information, how we educate ourselves, how
we share information with other people.
And, uh, I needed to build a solution
that was actually giving me, um, you
know, a, a proper, a proper mirror of,
uh, what is going on at any given time.
Uh, so I build perception and, uh,
you know, it started as a newsletter.
Uh, back in late 2024,
early 2025 newsletter.
Grew two thousands of subscribers and
people were starting, uh, they started
asking me, Hey, this data that you're
writing about, are you gonna release it?
Started releasing it very, you know,
very basic MVP and it got, it got
enough traction that I was like,
too busy to do two things at once.
So I exited Blockstream about five, six
months ago to focus on this full time.
Yeah, it's been, uh,
it's been going great.
I think, uh, you know, people really.
I think people, the way people
work, uh, especially knowledge
workers, the way we consume
information is drastically changing.
So I'm kind of like building towards
that so that people that work in our
space can actually know what's happening
and take, uh, better decisions instead
of being, uh, caught in the quagmire
that is, uh, the internet right now.
And I think stuff is gonna get.
Pretty intense in the future.
And, uh, I guess that's what
we're gonna talk about today.
Anja: Yeah, for sure.
Um, but yeah, my, my background
is also in marketing, so I really
have an appreciation for like
any form of media monitoring.
And I know you've done quite a few
posts on LinkedIn where I follow you
mo mostly, and yeah, you talk a lot
about adoption and you talk a lot about
like the sentiment that's changing.
So what have you, what trends
have you noticed since you
launched in terms of like.
What are the discussions or the
perceptions about Bitcoin out there?
Fernando: I mean, the thing is, it's,
uh, if I were to, you know, gauge that
using, uh, traditional tools like hanging
out on X or hanging out on LinkedIn and
maybe following a few websites and, and
newsletters, I would, I would just get
a little piece of e everything that's
happening now that I'm actually, um.
Gathering so much data and, and
having systems in place to, to
organize them and literally tell
me everything that's going on.
I truly see how much is really
going on at any given time.
It's not one or two things,
it's just so much at once.
And it's, it's actually pretty cool
to see that because, um, you know,
when you are, when you get your main
information through X for example.
You might think the only thing
that the world is doing is fighting
over BIP one 20, uh, one 10 and,
uh, and, and, and, and that's it.
Um, there's just so much
infrastructure being built.
There's so much exciting partnerships,
uh, happening almost daily.
Uh.
It's not about price action.
I mean, price action definitely is a
big category, but there's just so much
more than just price, uh, going on.
And that seems to be, you know, price
and, uh, infighting between bitcoiners
seems to be like the, the overwhelming
dominating narratives at all times.
Whether the price is booming or
is crashing, and then whatever
controversy is going on, um, that
it's just way more than that.
I can't really tell everything that's
going on right now, but one thing
that is very interesting is that even
though we are in a bear market and the
price has crashed, uh, pretty crazy
in the past few weeks and months.
There's so much stuff being built.
There's so much institutional, uh, capital
flowing in, uh, for infrastructure sakes.
So it's like if, uh, price is down
right now, all the infrastructure
that is being built right now is gonna
be a major catalyst for the next,
uh, bull run because we were seeing.
So much exciting stuff being
built and so many people getting
together and partnering up.
So I think that's the, the,
the one thing I would say.
Anja: Yeah, one of the most surprising
things that I, I've come across in
Australia, like I never would've
thought before getting into Bitcoin
that we would have so much talent.
You know, here in Australia, 'cause we're
quite isolated from the rest of the world.
Um, geographically at least.
And like I, I'm just in complete awe,
they're just, the innovation that's
happening here and some of the products
that are going to come out, which I
won't say what they are, but like, they,
they're going to be world changing that
can totally see lots of people all over
the world using some of these solutions.
And it's just really, really amazing.
To, yeah.
Be alongside all these builders.
It's, it's, it's just amazing that you,
the whole kind of Bitcoin community
tends to attract these really, like
introverted, high functioning, very
high like, um, agency people that
just, you know, when I do things.
But yeah, I agree with like,
the infighting has been
particularly bad lately.
I've kind of like just stepped back a
little bit just to recoup some energy and.
Join back the Twitter
spaces and be one in debates
Fernando: what you're saying about,
you know, like, people building right
now and having a, a specific energy.
I think it's very needed.
I think if you take a look at the
first 10 years of Bitcoin, I think
there's been a lot of, a lot of, um.
I, I don't wanna say decisions because
a lot of, a lot of things are pretty
disorganized in the Bitcoin community.
Obviously it's a decentralized
thing, so the organization is also
disorganized and decentralized.
But I think the first 10 years
of, of Bitcoin's history has been
extremely detrimental in terms of
adoption for two specific reasons.
One is the attitude of the builders.
Like I, I I totally respect,
uh, all the people who, who,
who built Bitcoin obviously.
And it laid a foundation, uh, and,
and, and thought about not fucking
it up, but that kind of mentality.
Brought a bunch of people that
were essentially, uh, you know,
artists building for other artists.
You needed to be a genius
to use the, the tools.
And, uh, there were people that
the last thing that they cared
about was UX or ui or creating,
you know, a delightful product.
It was like cipher punk, write
coats and, and that's it.
And, and that is not good for adoption.
And then the second thing.
Is also, um, a little bit of the,
um, the, um, the approach that we
take to convincing people, like in
terms of like spreading influence.
I would say number go up has been the
best thing for adoption in terms of
convincing people to get in because
you, like, like they say, you come
for the, for the NGU, but you stay
for the revolution or whatever.
You kinda like, you fall into
different rabbit holes after you,
you just wanna be part of the,
the, the price going up, right?
It's like very, very primal, very
like instinctive decision making.
But uh, the actual adoption, the
actual influencing that people have
been trying that it was not about
price has been about like, um, total
like tone deaf attitudes, right?
Like, um, you know, orange.
Orange pilling is, is tricky because when
you, um, get convinced about Bitcoin,
there's a specific set of things,
arguments that convinces you, right?
And number one, it takes time.
Like you won't, you won't be
convinced about Bitcoin the
first time you hear it anyway.
You need to kind of like take your
life experiences, the your, the way
you see life, uh, you know, your.
Uh, you know, your filter to see the
world, you gotta put that into the
context of where Bitcoin fits, right?
So it's a highly like individual
personal journey that you take.
And then, you know, if
it clicks, it clicks.
Um, for me it clicked.
For example, being from Argentina, uh,
you know, my, my family emigrated from
Argentina because of hyperinflation.
In my life, I tried to under, I tried
to understand why this is a thing.
Why does Argentina keep having
these like inflation problems?
That led me to, uh, read about Mees and
the Austrian economics, and then when
I saw Bitcoin through the lens of like
Austrian economics and the monetary
properties, that's where it clicked.
But if I got some dude from Germany
who, uh, loved Bitcoin because of
the cryptography, and he was trying
to sell me Bitcoin through the
cryptography lens, that convinced him.
I would be like, whatever,
I don't fucking care.
It's not interesting.
And that is kind of like the, the,
what the majority of the Bitcoin
community have done over years.
It's like what I believe
in, you need to believe in.
And it's not how, that's not
how influence, uh, works.
You need to meet people where they are.
You need to be empathetic.
You need to ask them questions.
You need to understand what
are, what are the pain points?
What do they care about?
What are they afraid about?
You gotta tap into those emotions
and we haven't done that.
As, as, as Bitcoiners, but I believe now,
and to your point, I'm sorry for the rant.
Um, now there's a generation that actually
thinks about UX, that thinks about UI
that has grown up using smartphones
and maybe, you know, these like neo
banks, these FinTech apps, so they know
what like good UI UX looks like and
they try to bring some of that over to
Bitcoin so that Normies can actually.
Open up a Bitcoin wallet and know
what the fuck is happening when
they open up the, the wallet.
And then also on the, on the
communications, on the marketing side,
I think we're also getting better.
We, we are having like so many different
voices that can kind of like plug into
different needs and different situations.
You have the circular economy
in Africa and Latin America.
You have the, the suit
coins in Wall Street.
You, you, you're starting to
see like so many fragmented.
Um, voices that cater to very specific
niches, and I think that's, that's
the key for growing this thing.
We, you know, it's not about mass
adoption anymore in terms of like one
big movement, uh, taken over the world.
It's fragmented adoption where people
talk to people of the, of their own,
like, and they, and they like translate
the Bitcoin values into the, the
values that, that they believe in.
So I'm super bullish for the future for,
for, for these two specific reasons.
Speaker 4: Quick one for the Aussies
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Anja: Yeah, me too.
And I love that you're talking about
this because this was my whole talk
that I did at a previous Bush Bash
in Parks last year, I wanna say.
Nice.
Yeah.
Last year.
And um, yeah, it was kind of
broken down in three segments.
The first segment was talking about the
UX ui, and it was kind of jokingly put
out all of these like Bitcoin products
and services and wallets versus crypto
products and services and wallets.
Say, you can see that in
crypto, wider crypto, they do
focus a lot more on UX and ui.
We focus obviously a lot more on
security and those types of things,
which is very important, but there's no
reason why we need to trade, you know,
things looking pretty and easy to use.
But yeah, surprisingly also completely
unrelated seed signer, which is like
the most secure wallet that you can get,
is really, um, really user friendly.
I was so surprised.
Better, some of the better than some of
the wallets that, um, have marketing,
a lot of marketing budget behind them.
So there is hope for us.
Um,
Fernando: yes.
Anja: But yeah, the o the other, um,
the other topic I had was in the middle
was about yeah, that those kind of
like subcultures, people want to hear
about Bitcoin from people that you
know are their reference point in life.
And I gave.
Some examples.
We have like a colorectal
surgeon in Australia.
I haven't never met him, but he speaks
to like the, his medical colleagues
about Bitcoin and it's like, you
know, it's, I'm sure they would
rather hear it from him than me.
And yeah, there's heaps of, I, I know
us for example, has some groups that
are like war veterans talking about
Bitcoin with other war, war VE vets.
Whenever I put a W and a V
together, I always mix it up.
And then, and then the final one
was, um, you know, preaching to or
to the half converted, which is like
that crypto crowd, like a lot of them
don't need convincing on Bitcoin.
They just need to step away from some
of the bad marketing that they've been
exposed to in the wider crypto space.
Um, yeah, I, I live in the
northern rivers in Australia and.
People are very like open-minded here,
but we do have, you know, people coming
to our monthly meetups and they have
a lot of coins in their portfolio.
They don't necessarily know what
they hold, why they hold it.
So it is just kind of like educating
them about, you know, the risks
and, and, and, you know, sure.
Invest your money in whatever you want,
as long as you know that it's, it's.
What, what you're investing in.
Um, but yeah, I I I love that
you, you care about these
same things and do you Yeah.
Do you wanna say something on
that?
Fernando: I think, uh, that is
something that we've also done, I
think that, uh, Bitcoiners has also
been very much like in other people's
business, kind of like shaming them
for having a diversified portfolio.
I mean, I have 90% Bitcoin, 10% cash.
That's it.
I don't mess around with any of
the other shit, but I, that's me.
Like, uh, I'm not gonna, I'm not
gonna shame another man for what
they decide to do with their money.
Um, I'm going to tell them like,
Hey man, you know, Bitcoin is
the fastest horse in the race.
And, um, you know, it has a very
different profile in nature compared
to the other, the other stuff.
And all I can do is just, uh, say that.
But I can't say like,
oh, bro, you're wrong.
Or like, uh, you're fucked up.
You don't know.
You don't know what you're talking about,
man, you're gonna fucking go to zero.
You're gonna get broke.
Um, people need to get their,
through their own means, through life
experience, through time, through
arguments with, you know, normal
people that have conversations.
And, uh, like you said,
you know, if it takes.
A war, war veteran.
Uh, I also have the W and the Vs.
Uh, messed up.
If you take a war veteran to
another war veteran to actually
make the message go through, then
yeah, then what's the problem?
I mean, this, if a total stranger
came to me and said, X, Y, and Z,
and, and then, uh, my wife comes
and tells me the exact same thing.
I'm gonna listen to her
than a, than a stranger.
It's obvious.
Um, I think a lot of, a lot of
Bitcoiners that are a little bit
like not in touch with people or
society, I don't know what it is,
maybe they're like chronically online.
They just don't know how to talk to
people, but they still talk to people
not knowing how to talk to people.
And I think that is so detrimental
and I think that has set us back.
Uh, honestly, it has set us back
because you would think that.
You would think, like I, I'm
from Argentina, for example.
You would think that people from
Argentina going through hyperinflation
would understand Bitcoin in
a, in, in a, in a heartbeat.
Like it's a, it's a no brainer for them.
Right?
Guess what?
Ethereum is the biggest community
in Argentina when it comes to
this whole crypto thing, and.
If they wanna like, you know, go
with the thesis of, uh, you know, uh,
store value, preserving purchasing
power and stuff like that, they go
to USD instead of Bitcoin, right?
So stable coins is now the
preferred thing, uh, and.
And not Bitcoin.
And it's obvious because
volatility is real.
Yeah.
Like you have to stomach that.
You need to unlearn, you gotta wire
your head differently to understand
why volatility is good essentially.
Now, and I don't wanna sound too harsh,
but the people who understand the uh
the good stuff about volatility are
going to be people in Wall Street in
the institutional realm, 'cause they
deal with a lot of volatile assets.
There is an index for vol volatility, the
vix, so they understand that language.
Some like, uh, dude who sells uh, juices
in a corner of the street in Argentina
it's not gonna understand that deeply.
They're gonna see the chart and say.
This crashed 40%.
What, what, what is this?
Uh, store of value bullshit.
Um, so there's going to be people that are
already rich that are already privileged,
who are already more financial literate,
who are going to understand Bitcoin first.
I mean, there is a reason why
Bitcoin is adopted the most in North
America and Europe historically.
You take a look at, take a look at all
the lightning notes that are on the
map, and it's like Europe and North
America back to back, and then some like
lose, uh, you know, nodes elsewhere.
And that is just because education is low.
Argentina education is low.
People don't understand concepts that
are like translated as digital gold or
Austrian economics and stuff like that.
All they know is shit gets more
expensive and they don't understand why.
So you need to really meet them at
their level, which I'm, I'm, I'm
sorry to say, it's a very uneducated
illiterate, like financially illiterate
level, and you gotta break it down
like they were fucking five years old.
But here we come with like,
Hey, read the white paper,
bro, and then ask me anything.
Like, they're not gonna understand
anything of the white paper if you just
give it to them without any context.
So you need to meet people where they are.
Luckily, the media fragmentation that
we're experiencing right now where
you may be know about an author that
has sold millions of books, and then
you come to me and ask me about that
author, and I have never heard about him.
That's the media fragmentation that
is happening now in real time and is
only gonna get more and more intense
because you know, um, algorithms are
putting you in a, in a very small box,
uh, you know, ba and also just gonna
give you more of what you already
have signal that you kind of like.
So it's not, there's no more discovery
happening really apart from like
violence and gore and, and political
violence and shit like that, that gets
promoted almost daily in terms of like
actually discovering and stuff like that.
No, we're gonna go back to communities.
In, in real life events and you
gotta like meet them where they are.
That's it.
Um, and there's probably going to
be, um, pockets of the internet where
you can see the same thing happening.
Like at that low level in Buenos
Aires, also happening in South Africa.
So you will, that, that guy who will
meet this other guy in real life will
be able to pull up his phone and say,
this is happening in South Africa too.
This is happening in the Philippines too.
As a, as a way to like, just to
have a deeper understanding of
like what Bitcoin can mean for this
particular person named Buenos Aires.
Am I ranting too much?
I hope I makes sense.
Anja: I, I, I, I love
all of these insights.
I'm still, my brain is still stuck
on, I can't believe, I can understand
why people in Argentina would prefer
stable coins over Bitcoin, but I can't
understand why they would, the Ethereum
community is bigger than the Bitcoin.
Like what?
Why?
Fernando: I can tell you why.
So the reason is that when
you live in Argentina and
when you live in Argentina and
you're late teenager in your early
twenties, uh, you understand like,
fuck, I got, I got two choices.
Either I leave, uh, my country
and I try to get a job in Spain or
Europe or, or the US or whatever,
uh, for, for my own future, right?
Or I stay in Argentina and
try to try to get money.
Staying in Argentina, trying to
get money, the, the, the, the
legal way it's extremely hard.
You have, you know, a, a currency that
hates you, a government that hates you.
Uh, you have everything in the
world against you, essentially.
And then they think, well, I just go
to a country that is more civilized,
that has more infrastructure, that
has more jobs, and I can just do that.
But we now live in the age of the internet
where you can literally get a laptop.
You can connect to the internet and you
can get a job as a graphic designer or
marketer or social media, whatever, right?
Knowledge work online, and you can
get clients right that, um, that, uh,
is from anywhere that can pay you.
So Ethereum is like this whole, you
know, the, what the community in
Argentina are like, selling the,
the Ethereum Foundation in Argentina
is kinda like selling to people.
It's like, Hey, with Ethereum we
can plug into the internet of money.
You can build, you can get
paid, you can build apps.
This is a whole nother ecosystem that
is purely online where you can just
get paid directly and there's no bank
accounts, there's no, uh, you know, your
accounts can be frozen, blah, blah, blah.
And they're like, okay,
let me look into this.
And then they see like there's a
whole huge developer community.
And they're like, okay, yeah,
I can learn how to code, I
can learn to build some stuff.
This is even before AI came into place and
now everybody can, can build it, right?
And they're like, okay, shit.
I, I go to the ethereum.org website and
there's like loads of documentation.
Everything is like super easy.
I can download an SDK and
start building right away.
Meanwhile, lemme go to bitcoin.org.
What's over here?
There's fucking nothing.
I can't build nothing here.
Right.
So that's, that's in a nutshell,
that's, that's kind of like why.
Ethereum is so much bigger
in Argentina because it's,
it's a promise of prosperity.
Uh, is a promise of I can plug into the
rest of the world through internet money.
I can build something and
I can stay in Argentina.
I don't have to leave my family,
uh, to, uh, to get opportunities
like my mom did back in the day
when there wasn't any internet.
Right.
So that, that's, that's why, and
that's again, another, this is just one
example, probably a thousand of examples
of this elsewhere in the world where.
Having this like friendly,
open-minded developer community that
is organized, that is capitalized.
Let's be honest, because this is
extremely organized institutions.
The Ethereum Foundation, consensus, all of
these highly capitalized uh uh, companies,
they coordinate and they organize,
and this is what Bitcoin haven't done.
Obviously we can't because
we are decentralized.
It's, it's kind of like a, a very
organic movement, but that is the reason.
So just want to explain that to you.
Anja: Yeah, it, it, it kind of makes
sense because when I compare to
Australia, we obviously have a lot
of different meetups and events here,
and every capital city that I've been
to has a Bitcoin and a crypto meetup.
And the crypto meetup group is usually
thousands or of participants and the
Bitcoin might have been the tens or the
hundreds depending on how big the city is.
And yeah, it's, it's interesting,
like obviously marketing is powerful,
more powerful than our word of mouth.
Um, but yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, it's interesting and also kind
of remembering what you were saying
about like, the different, um,
experiences people have with, with
Bitcoin throughout their journey.
One analogy I like to use with,
with people when I'm explaining
this, using my marketing background.
Is, um, to buy any kind of product or
service, usually, uh, an individual will
have to like, have a touch point with
a, let's say, 16 times throughout their,
you know, life, uh, or a season and.
Those kind of touch, different
touch points, whether online or in
person or face-to-face, um, will
lead to that deci purchase decision.
And obviously this is like averaged out.
So it's kind of the same with Bitcoin.
If, you know, my auntie, who her
early in account would've been
like, okay, this is interesting.
But she reads in the media and a trusted
person disparages it, and then she hears
from one of her colleagues got scammed
and then, uh, uh, she has to help a
friend try withdraw Bitcoin from a very
dodgy exchange and not able to do so.
It's no surprise that she's,
you know, less likely to be
open-minded or, you know, the 15th
to 16th time she hears about it.
Whereas, yeah, for people who've
had more positive experiences
or might have, you know, like an
entry point through cryptography
or Austrian economics or something.
Of course they're gonna be
more open-minded and and keen
to hear about it 'cause Yeah.
Fernando: That's exactly right.
And I think, uh, you know, every
single touch point is super valuable.
It really has to be a perfect
string of touch points for it to
fully, uh, be, be welcome, because
there's so much noise, there's so
many things, so much information.
Uh, there's like so much information,
pollution that in order for you to
like actually keep your interest over
these touch points extremely hard.
Uh, and you need like a proper coordinated
attack almost, uh, as a, as an entity if
you wanna get someone's business right?
And this is what Bitcoin is not.
So the only thing that, you know, we.
We can hope for is that companies in
the Bitcoin industry does that right.
And there's some interesting incentives
that comes into play where, um, you know,
companies with, with a brand that can
think about brand design communications
and kinda like organize themselves in
a very selfish matter of just getting
business and growing their company, that
through those companies we can achieve.
You know, multiple, uh, multiple
adoption, uh, curves because, uh,
individual Bitcoiners, I'm sorry
man, we, we have, we have fucked up.
You know, like so many, I see so
many people on, on X saying, I have
given up on orange peeling, you know,
it's, I, I don't wanna do it anymore.
If people come to me and
ask, okay, I will ask.
I, I will, I will tell them
something, but I'm done.
Orange peeling.
I see.
Have you seen those tweets?
I've seen plenty.
Anja: Uh, of, I I haven't,
but I You haven't?
Yeah.
I've had a similar kind
of experience myself.
Not that I'm done orange peeling, but
when I first got in, I, I definitely
was over zealous and I was like,
there's the best thing you have
to hear about and learn about it.
Like, and then I'm not
pushing information.
Fernando: Yeah.
Because it's like.
The process of rocking quote
unquote Bitcoin involves like
unlearning a lot of stuff, right?
So there's like, you think about
the world in a certain way and then
you realize, holy shit, I've been
thinking about this whole thing wrong.
And if somebody else tells you,
Hey, you are wrong about the world,
you're gonna be like, fuck off.
Like shut up.
Coming to that conclusion yourself
and telling yourself that, like, whoa,
these things that I've been taught, uh,
during, you know, my, my, my school, my
education, what my parents have told me,
what society has told me are not true.
Whoa, that's like a crazy 180.
And obviously the emotional
reaction is, holy shit, I gotta
tell everybody about this.
But then it's like, okay.
Again, to my point in the
beginning of the call, it's like.
The thing that convinced you to
get there is not gonna be the
same thing that convinced the
other, uh, to get there as well.
So you, we, we get, like I said,
overzealous and we were like, we
gotta shout it at the rooftop,
at the top of the rooftop.
But hey, what is the message?
What's the, what are we communicating?
We're just communicating
what we believe in.
Not, not that the, the rest of
the world is not gonna believe
in the exact same thing.
And that's why I say Bitcoin is
not for everyone because, uh,
there's just some people that are
just not gonna get it as well.
Um, and that's okay.
Um, we wanna, we have this energy
when we grow up Bitcoin, like, okay,
it's gonna take over the world.
It's gonna be the new global reserve
asset, which might be true, but
it's not gonna happen that fast.
That's one, uh, because there's a lot
of people today that lives in the world
today that are never going to get it.
This could be a generational
issue, but it could be a, it
could be a background issue.
It's an incentive issue.
A lot of people, they wanna keep the fiat
world, you know, going on, uh, because
it's in the best interest, uh, to do that.
Uh, media outlets.
They cannot pivot and all of a sudden
say, we were wrong about Bitcoin.
This is, uh, now we're gonna cover it.
Uh, in, in a balanced way.
No, because they have incentives in
place where they have built up an
audience trashing Bitcoin, and if they
pivot, they're gonna lose that audience.
I mean, so there's, it
is, it's not gonna happen.
Global mass adoption all in
one stroke, it's gonna be,
we're gonna chip away at it.
And we're all on this together
to make it grow further.
And we are going to take a bigger
and bigger market share over time.
Yes.
Um, because I do believe in, in this
new generation of Bitcoins, and I
see a lot of cool companies that are.
Uh, thinking about UX and UI and brand
and looking cool and try to tap into
the mainstream culture and kinda like
bridge, bridge the gap between mainstream
normie culture and Bitcoin culture.
Stuff like, you know,
cash app square strike.
Um, I would say even Coinbase, a lot
of people are gonna hate me for this,
but like Coinbase are creating some ads
that are like chef's Kiss, uh, and uh.
Or shit, coin Casino, fuck it.
Um, but they have really nailed it by
like nice production value, awesome
communication, great messaging, and that's
gonna drive adoption forward, but it's
going to be one bit at a time, you know?
Um, that's, I think we need to accept that
as a, as Bitcoins that it's not gonna,
it is gonna change the world, but slowly.
Anja: Not in exactly the way we expect or
in the timeline that we might hope for.
Yeah, I, I think about this all the
time, um, in terms of, of like what the
adoption is gonna look like from here
onwards, because there's just like, I
try to like imagine scenarios where like,
what if, you know, someone's so busy
fighting all these, you know, geopolitical
wars and, and, and things, and all of a
sudden this things just keep ticking and
sneaking up on all of us and, and, yeah.
I don't know.
I don't know.
It ke keeps me up at night.
Fernando: Um, I think, um, that, um,
we see, we say that, you know, with
inflation and fiat currency, that
things are just gonna get worse, right?
Until fiat kind of like dies out.
And I feel like a res, a very direct
result of the inflationary properties
that fiat money has is, you know,
people, the poorest people, they need
to work extra hard just to get by.
And, you know, they, they have kids to
feed, they have families and whatever.
Just taking care of yourself
is gonna be harder and harder
just by yourself being alone.
And that might translate into people
getting two, three part-time jobs.
Um, being more busy, uh, like
really struggling, right?
Like an Uber driver might drive 16 hours
a day just to put food on the table.
So these people.
That truly needs Bitcoin, that needs to
hear about it, that needs to be educated
about it, are increasingly gonna have
less, less time to actually sit down and,
uh, read a book or follow podcasts and,
and sit down and watch YouTube videos.
So what's going to happen with that?
Right.
I think, the lens is getting smaller
and smaller and more narrow and more
narrow, and the only hope that I have
is that we fragment so much that.
You know, an Uber driver will
understand Bitcoin just because
of one reason and one reason only.
And that reason is just gonna stay
true and not gonna change because
this person doesn't have time to
think about Bitcoin in any other way.
So I think adoption in the future is
going to look like a bunch of more people.
Using Bitcoin, but for
wildly different reasons.
To your point, you were, you
were mentioning that, right?
Like all this like infighting and
reactions from older Bitcoiners
who are like, I don't agree
with how Bitcoin is being used.
And um, it's going to increasingly
be more of those people.
Uh, if, if these people they clinging
to their like ideology or like this,
like deep conviction that convinced
them in the first place about what
Bitcoin is and what it should be.
If they continue with that
like one so reason, they're
gonna have a very tough time.
They're gonna like rage quit Bitcoin
in the future, I feel like, because
we already see it now, right?
Like with people having a problem,
um, with all well, wall Street
taking over, or Sailor uh, buying
so much more Bitcoin, right?
And these are people that are
more like Cipher punk, closer to
the Cipher punk ethos perhaps.
Or they might be like medium of exchange
maxes that are like, no, no, no, we
need, we need the Bitcoin to flow.
We need people to spend Bitcoin.
We need to build circular economy.
So just buying Bitcoin and
like storing it is not good.
Uh, 'cause then the people who needs
Bitcoin in the circular economies
are going to have to buy Bitcoin
at a higher price, stuff like that.
Right?
So we already started
to see these frictions.
Not about like BIP one 20, uh, one 10
or whatever, but it's literally about
this is the right way to use Bitcoin,
the wrong way to use Bitcoin, and this
splintering is first of all, it's kinda
like the end of the Bitcoin monoculture.
There is no Bitcoin community anymore.
There is not a definition of like
what a Bitcoin or is anymore.
There's just a bunch of people who love
Bitcoin for widely different reasons,
and it's gonna be used in very different
ways, in ways you don't agree with.
And I think we need to accept that.
I can't believe there are
Bitcoiners who have been years
into this who have a problem with.
Oh, no, no, no.
You're using it wrong.
Like, what the hell are you talking about?
Like, and these are the same
people who are like, oh, Bitcoin
is gonna take over the world.
Where if Bitcoin's gonna take over the
world, the world is different, man.
There's, there's a variety in humans
in, uh, situations and societies.
So that's, the usage of money
is gonna be a reflection of the
variety that we have in society.
So if you have a problem with
people from different places
using Bitcoin differently.
What kind of world do you want?
It's like,
Anja: he's just so funny.
It's so funny.
It's like I'm libertarian, but I
will tell you how to use your money.
Fernando: Yeah.
Anja: That kind of guess makes no
Fernando: sense.
Anja: But yeah, like sometimes I also
wonder, like I'm obviously, you and I
are so close to Bitcoin, so every time
there's like new news out, you know,
say, well, more Bitcoin or a new large
vendor in America is accepting Bitcoin
or somehow integrating it into their
business, and we're like so excited.
But like, does the average consumer
of that business even know that?
Like, do you know, what's that like burger
place that recently started accepting,
we're like, well, you know, like a whole
chain across the US is now you can, you
know, pay for your burger in Bitcoin,
but like, do average shoppers know that?
Do they.
I dunno.
Fernando: No,
Anja: it's probably not like, and
Fernando: that, that's, that's the thing.
I think we, we, know, a lot of, a lot of
companies from outside of Bitcoin, they
obviously see, uh, the Bitcoin community,
but I think they see it as, I don't know,
the, the BMX, uh, dirt bike community.
It's just a community that if we pander
to them that they're gonna react and
they're gonna love us for it, but it's not
gonna be like, oh my God, it, you know.
People outside this community
are gonna fucking love it.
No, no, no.
This is a pure marketing play where you
identify a niche, uh, community that
you see has enough traction so that you
make a marketing decision internally
and say, we're gonna do something
for this community specifically.
To pander to them.
And that's what stake, uh,
steak and Shake are, are doing.
That's what a lot of, a lot of,
um, nation states have been doing.
Like El Salvador.
It's, it's, it's a pandering
to a community that it, we
are a community of enough.
Like we have a critical mass that
any anybody from the outside, they
wanna like, Hey, shall we do a
Bitcoin, uh, marketing campaign?
Okay, yeah, we should because
there's enough people.
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Fernando: So the same way
that, uh, businesses are.
Pandering to Bitcoin communities is also
something that we're seeing happening in
politics with, uh, you know, congress,
uh, women or congress men, um, you know,
fighting for Bitcoin, uh, or nation
states, uh, you know, adopting Bitcoin.
It is for.
Bitcoiners first, and then some other
people might be on the outside looking
in and be like, oh, this is interesting.
Let me see what it is.
And maybe they will become bitcoiners too.
But I think the, the, the, the, the
main goal from these companies and
from these politicians is to get
the Bitcoin or base on their side.
Anja: The final question I had for you was
just asking you, you know, with, you know,
the increasingly fragmented world and we
have all these builders in the bitcoin
space who creating these companies and
trying to obviously grow adoption and,
and reach more people, how do you think.
You know, they, they're going to
essentially reach the masses in
an increasingly fragmented world
Fernando: by, uh, being
hyper-focused and, uh, niching down.
I think it's like, uh, a big, um, um.
It's an adage where in marketing,
where it's like you niche down and
you get like a, a, a critical mass
of, of, uh, users and then you can
scale up from, from that point.
Um, and I think that's kind of like
it, like companies that are trying to
do everything at once are gonna lose.
Um, and they're gonna get their ass
kicked by way leaner, smaller companies,
one or two founders or whatever.
Especially now with AI and coding
being so, uh, so easy to create,
like really nice front end.
Uh, not, not at a protocol level
obviously, but like in terms of
creating apps and, uh, SDKs and
creating libraries and stuff like
that, um, it's, it's way easier now.
Uh, and you see now, you know, a lot of
companies that are building on arc, for
example, are like super small, super small
teams that are just in my, in my opinion,
they're, they're doing a good job.
They haven't gotten the traction yet,
but I think the setup is, is pretty good.
So more companies niching down on
very specific things and then grabbing
their market share and then being
profitable quick so they can see what,
what, what they're going to build next.
I think that's, uh, going
to be, uh, super important.
And then on the, on the flip side.
You know, big ideas, um, founders
with, with big ideas that want
to big, that want to be big.
They, they, they need to be, uh,
convincing enough, uh, to get, uh,
real capital and be funded to really,
you know, try to make some big swings,
um, to really move, move masses.
There's a combination of, of these things.
Even if you're well funded
or you're bootstrapped, the
philosophy is still the same.
People are now and in the future
going to consume information and
education online in very, very
small pockets of the internet.
So you just gotta try to
dominate those small pockets.
Uh, and then the, the,
the, the total, the sum.
Of everyone doing their part is what's
going to drive adoption further, but it's
going to be a very fragmented adoption.
But if you take a step back and you see
everything that's happening at once,
you'll see that it is one movement,
but it's just highly disorganized.
Where everybody's just
focusing on their own things.
And then Bitcoin as a result, is
going to be adopted in many different
ways by many different people.
And there's not gonna be one narrative
that will be the true narrative anymore.
It's gonna be many narratives, many
truths, and you might, uh, disagree with
it or not, but doesn't really matter.
That's kind of like how the
future's going to look like.
So what can you do?
Mm-hmm.
You either, you either change
your mind or you don't.
Anja: Yeah, and I'm thinking about as
you're speaking, if there's any kind
of company out there that I can think
of the top of my head that is like
kind of doing like kind of an up and
coming company that's doing a really
good job of it in the Bitcoin space and
nothing immediately is coming to mind.
Do you have one, like someone that
you're like, oh, they're actually
doing really good marketing.
Um, no one's coming to me.
Fernando: Well, I would say.
No, I, in, in, in terms of
like the Bitcoin only, um,
companies, uh, not really,
Anja: but
Fernando: I truly love
Anja: because seeing the same people
sharing the same story, kind of
like I'm not really seeing much.
Yeah, yeah.
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Fernando: Now essentially building
for the user that is going to
download five different wallets on
their phone and maybe use one of them
more, and then the four, it will just
gonna stay there on the phone, not
really doing anything, just idle.
But I think the ones that are really
trying to tap into the mainstream
culture that are trying to make,
um, make, uh, Bitcoin cool is, is,
uh, cash app a square block, that
that company is fucking killing it.
And they have also that combination of.
Design UX brand mentality, but
they're also philosophically sound.
They are Bitcoin first, even though
Jack is like reluctantly doing
stuff on for stable coins lately.
But they have the philosophy and the
the design and to be able to master
these two things historically in Bitcoin
has been almost an impossibility.
And to see that they have, like, they
make Bitcoin only cool and relevant.
Jack wearing a Satoshi Komodo t-shirt
at the Super Bowl, that type of shit.
That's what we need more of.
But fortunately, one company
doing that, we need more.
So hopefully,
Anja: yeah,
Fernando: hopefully there's more, uh,
companies that are small now that can
grow bigger, be well, more funded,
but we need to step away from, um, uh,
the companies who wanna do everything.
Um, we've gotta tap into the culture.
You know, I come from the music, uh,
business and, uh, I was at Universal Music
when Torrenting, um, became a thing and
kinda like disrupted the entire industry.
The Pirate Bay, the torrents.
They, they, they were
driving the culture forward.
They, they made, uh, this shit cool.
And when a technology is p paired
up with culture, that's the that's
the, the, the, the, the, the t and t,
that's the, that's the dy dynamite.
And we have a culture and we have the
tech, like who, who are the designers,
who are the brand people that are
able to take those two things because
I think Cipher punk can be cool.
It has that like, cool, dark, uh,
you know, um, style that, that
can be turned into something cool.
And, uh, yeah, only, only Cash
App and Square and Block have
been able to crack that code.
We need more people cracking the code.
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.
And I can certainly relate to what
Jack is going through because this
is so embarrassing, but even I
struggle with like, how do I grow my
podcast versus how do I stay pure?
So I like actually refrain from even
using the hashtag crypto in, in my,
like YouTube and, and social media.
I'm just like, what am I doing?
Like if it's about reaching people
and that's what I care about adoption,
then I just need to get over myself
and not, you know, use hashtag crypto.
I
Fernando: came to that conclusion myself.
Totally.
I came to that conclusion
myself of building my business.
Uh, I, I was Bitcoin only at the get go.
After two months, I realized I
gotta, I gotta, you know, I gotta
bring in the other shit as well.
I, I, I don't have, I don't track, um,
Ethereum, the coin, but if JP Morgan is
launching like a credit, uh, product on
Ethereum, that is part of perception.
So I'm bringing in the institutionalized
digital assets, uh, part of it because
it's also important to see where Bitcoin
is positioned compared to, to the other.
You don't wanna.
You don't want to evaluate Bitcoin's,
uh, temperature in isolation.
You want to see how Bitcoin is positioned
a a amongst other competitors and
other things that is happening too.
And, and I think that's important too.
You need to not look at
Bitcoin as an island.
You need to look at Bitcoin as a peninsula
where a lot of stuff is happening and
uh, it's still outside like a peninsula,
but it's, um, there's more to it.
You know, it's not a stupid little island.
There's a lot of stuff happening
and we need to see, we need to
compare Bitcoin against competitors.
It's a competitive analysis.
It's like marketing one-on-one,
business, one-on-one, so, yeah.
Anja: Yeah.
I also love, I will include a link in
the show notes of your LinkedIn profile
as well, so people can add you on there
as well, because the, the LinkedIn
buyer you have is so interesting.
I absolutely love the reading it, but
yeah, I, um, I think I wanna escape
as many technical issues as possible.
So if you have any final words so that,
you know, for wrapping up, uh, for with
my audience, yeah, I'm happy to hear it.
Fernando: No, I mean, uh,
stay sane out there, man.
It's, uh, going to be very hard,
uh, in the future to, uh, get
your, uh, information online.
So choose your sources wisely.
Um, stick to what you know, and
you have to be your own, uh,
content curator, uh, these days.
So, um, Bitcoin is gonna be many
different things in the future.
Um.
Make sure that you stick to
what you like so that Bitcoin
stays fun and exciting for you.
Uh, 'cause the future is going to look
very different than what it is right now.
It's gonna see a lot of different people
with a lot of different views, polarizing
views, uh, coming into Bitcoin, and
uh, you need to be okay with that.
Uh, that's the healthy, that's
the healthy attitude at least.
So, uh, yeah, stay sane.
Uh, online is going,
going to get difficult.
So make sure that you have your tools
and your weaponry and everything
that you need to, uh, to be able to
follow this space without going crazy.
Anja: It already is getting difficult
because I'm just like, I really
wanna book myself is for some like
diving, just go under water for a bit.
Chill out, you know, like
get off the internet.
Alright, well thank you you
Fernando: so
Anja: much.
Fernando: Sometimes no,
sometimes that's the only remedy.
So yeah.
Uh, we, we might see like a revival
of, uh, offline meet space stuff
that's can be exciting anyway.
Anja: Yeah, I hope so.
I do love the, the offline
face-to-face meet, I say the best.
All right, for sure.
Thanks so much for your time.
Fernando: Thank you so much for
having me on, uh, having me on.
It was a pleasure meeting you
and, uh, having this convo.
Hopefully we'll do around too soon.
Anja: Yeah, absolutely.
With better tech this time.
Thank you.
Fernando: Bye.
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