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The Relaxed Running podcast is a behind the scenes conversation with the best athletes, coaches and professionals in the world of distance running. From training, hydration and nutrition to racing and recovering, we learn from the best in the world.
Relaxed conversations which are packed with actionable takeaways to help you take your running performance up a notch. Save yourself years of guess work and learn from the people who are doing it at the highest level.
tyson (00:00.203)
I was just saying before I hit record there, it was good to catch up with you and Tess the other day up at our house. For everyone listening, Mark's in Ararat, I'm in Point Lonsdale, which is not exactly close to each other. So when you guys are in town, any excuse to sit down and have a chat is fun. But we were, just, you know, I were laughing because when you left, we realized that pretty much the girls sat in the back room of our house, me and you sat in the kitchen and just spoke running for.
Thomo (00:19.168)
Absolutely.
Now I've just seen we've got uploading.
tyson (00:28.235)
What must have been two hours and then when it was time to go we both looked at each other and was like, okay We that time's gone quick So I mean when you get a bloke who nerds out on running talk is as much as you I thought who better that to have On the show. But anyway, what are you? What are you guys up to today man? You enjoying the long weekend?
Thomo (00:46.762)
Oh, just enjoying the sunny weather actually. Yeah, it's not a bad time of year. We really enjoy this time of year along with every other person out there who likes vitamin D, I guess. So yeah, no, kids, school holidays. Yeah, just enjoying life, mate.
tyson (01:00.891)
Heheheheh
tyson (01:06.587)
Yeah, no, awesome. It's a bit like that. I actually, just before I came in here to record this, I'd popped down to our little local beach. I had a little, I've done too much admin today on the computer.
And it was one of those days where I was like, I've got to get out of the house, especially looking out at that sun. So I went and did a little gym session. And then after the gym session, I was like, oh, I've still got 45 minutes. I'll go down to the beach for half an hour and just try and lock in some of that vitamin D and work on what is a very pasty body after a pretty cloudy winter. So yeah, it's nice when the sun comes out. It's the only thing that stops me wanting to move up north when those clouds evaporate. I go, okay.
Maybe Victoria's where it's at for another 12 months.
Thomo (01:49.354)
Yeah, it's a constant conversation, isn't it? We've definitely got all four seasons, but it puts you to the test a little bit. So yeah, no, good mate. It sounds like you've got some Irish and English origins in you like I do. The pasty white skin comes out pretty hardcore after a long winter. So yeah.
tyson (02:07.819)
Yeah, it's even with our kids. I don't know if you noticed, Charlie, my older boy, for everyone listening, he's kind of got Jesse's complexion, which is a little bit more Mediterranean Macedonian, that dark olive skin. And my second boy has just copped 100% of my genes. He's just the widest little fella in the world. So, I mean, we're gonna have to do some serious sun work on little Ollie just to be in the ballpark of where Jesse and Charlie's at. But yeah, with something like this.
But anyway, man, it was really fun. Just a little bit more context on sort of what we were talking about the other day. You came around and we'd been speaking a bit about Jakob Ingebrigtsen, who just ran 343 for the mile a couple of weeks ago. And that Jarrod Ngoosi, who was half a step behind him. I think he ran like a, I don't know what the PB was, but you and I were nerding out on that. And one thing that you said that was really interesting,
Thomo (02:59.895)
is massive.
tyson (03:02.255)
It was unbelievable. And there's a few different avenues we can talk about. Because I mean, even 10 years ago when I was running, apart from Al Garouj, I mean, you had like Noan Yen, a couple of other blokes who were around about that 343 mark, but it was very few and far between. And up until this year, it kind of looked a little bit like an untouchable record, I thought, that 343. And then you see at pre, these two blokes go shoulder to shoulder pretty much
Thomo (03:20.12)
Yeah.
tyson (03:31.807)
half a step behind that world record. And you go, what's going on? I remember I confessed to you, I was like, look, I hate being the guy to say this. I hope everyone's clean. But as I confess to you, the Lance Armstrong factor for me has tainted my trust in elite athletes. Cause I had his back forever and ever and ever. And then when he came and confessed, I was like, oh, come on, you got to get on my side and stick up for yourself, Lance. It's the technology, yeah.
Thomo (03:41.198)
haha
Thomo (03:57.402)
Oh, mate, likewise, I was wearing the Livestrong band. You remember the Livestrong bands, the yellow bands that everyone wore. Yeah, got on board with the emotion of it all. And yeah, probably in denial for quite a while once things started to surface there as those rumors. But yeah, like, gee. I still think with a lot of the psychology behind it, it's super interesting. I think I said to you the other day, there's a new documentary.
I'm going to say it's Netflix, I can't be sure. But basically the aftermath of Lance Armstrong's fall from grace and what it's been like for the last decade, basically. And yeah, that's also a really interesting look at the psychology behind it. What drove an athlete? You know, you've known plenty of athletes in your time. And there's athletes who have just got the best balance.
life perspectives and you can see why they get the best out of themselves. But then there's other examples of athletes where they're driven better than anyone that they stand next to on the start line. Sometimes it is an unhealthy blend and yeah, I guess it's just an interesting look at psychology, isn't it?
tyson (05:13.831)
Yeah, we were dancing around a couple of points. I kind of jumped straight into that, but essentially I think what I was trying to explain was like with a performance like that, there's so many factors that have got to be considered. Like obviously, let's just stick with Ingebrigtsen. One of the most incredible freak talents that you're ever gonna see. Like even as a junior, he was breaking junior records, which is a good sign that, okay, clearly he's got the genes. Genetically, he's gifted.
And then one of the other things that we spoke about was just how much the shoe technologies changed in the last few years. We were laughing about even 10 years ago when you and I were running, or I was running a little more competitively. You'd have a pair of Nike flats that would, or, you know, the equivalent in spikes that would just leave you in a fair bit of damage control for the days post race. Um, so that's another factor.
But then even listening, and I'm very new to this, maybe you know more about it, I've been listening to a bloke called Olive Alexander Bu. I'm trying to get him on the podcast at some stage. He's the coach of Gustav Eden, another triathlete, I can't remember, one of the Norwegian triathletes from the top of my head. And he was just speaking about the difference in some of the training styles that he's doing, particularly with those athletes. And one of the ones that I really hadn't heard much about was
this idea of a double threshold. Now I'm not sure if they're meaning like a double weekly threshold or I've literally just the last couple of days started to dig into it a little bit more. So I can't speak too much on what it is. But just for three factors to kickstart with, like they're three pretty big worlds of their own that I mean, hundreds of podcasts have and could be.
dedicated towards speaking about. But the shoe technology was one that you sounded like you had a bit more knowledge on than me. I don't know if you can speak to that, but man, do you remember what it was like running around in the shoes that we ran in even 10 years ago? It's a different world.
Thomo (07:12.362)
Yeah, absolutely. I've looked a bit of a disclaimer here. I've always loved shoes. Runners and shoes go hand in hand. If you're not taking interest in what you're putting on your feet to perform, you're probably behind the eight ball, really, against some of the people who are. And I think, yeah, as far as that interest goes, it goes back to the days over in the early 90s, the early Pegasus from Nikes and when the Zoom technology
first came out as a advancement from the Air Max, it's kind of sort of days. I mean, that was huge as far as a jump in technology goes. And I just, I love the responsiveness from that Zoom technology type structured airbag, basically in that forefoot, particularly because I was a very toey type runner in my competition day. So yeah, I loved all that stuff. And then...
during my uni days, I went and worked at the athletes foot for several years. Um, while I was there and, uh, yeah, became a full on shoe geek basically with it. Also, yes, I have continued to show interest in this stuff. And, um, yeah, I think it's unbelievable. Actually. It's, um, I read an article this week, um, uh, sort of retrospective after the massive events of
marathon running over the weekend at Berlin Marathon. And yeah, there's a few of our top notch guys making comment about what their thoughts and feelings are based on the Super Shoe era. And yeah, like I've heard described as many things Super Shoe alike. Some people talk about them being Pogo shoes because they're just so bouncy. It's like
having a pogo stick that's just launching you across the ground. So, yeah, I think the technology of this carbon plate and stack height of shoes now is it's a next level. It's moved so quickly as well that I think it's caught people a little bit unaware of potential risks as far as, you know, the ethics and equity with it. I know.
Thomo (09:30.95)
watching the documentary there on Netflix, I think it was about Alberto Salazar and Nike bringing out those shoes. When they were just coming out, the American marathon trials were about to take place and there were a lot of people complaining that all the Nike athletes who were sponsored would have a huge advantage because it's tested that.
I think it's 4% increase on marathon time or decrease probably is better way explaining on the marathon time compared to a normal set of trainers is was the hypothesis behind it and as far as all the testing that went into it, they were able to sort of say that very first year that came out, I think was the 4%. And so yeah, it was really interesting at the marathon trials. Everyone was saying this is unfair.
our shoe brands that we're professional athletes with, we don't have the access to the shoes. And then Nike, as they do, because obviously they were right behind any media, it's probably great media, they thought, great, well, let's give everyone in the field free access to a pair of the shoes. So it was one of the most weird probably trials you would have seen, I reckon, in Olympic history where professional athletes being paid
by companies to be their banner, you know, athletes were putting on Nike shoes because of the impressive improvement in their times and no one wanted to miss out on those Olympics, of course, so they were forced into a real ethical kind of dilemma where they had to choose to keep up or stick with their companies that had supported them.
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in some of those conversations where, hey, you know, I'm a Brooks man right through and through, but Nike got these shoes, can I wear them for these trials? You right with that? And what that conversation would have been like. Yeah, so yeah, I reckon it's a huge, huge era in technology advancements, but we were probably overdue, I reckon, in the certainly middle distance, distance running era.
tyson (11:41.417)
Yeah, man
Thomo (11:55.198)
of getting some technological advancements on all for it, as long as some people are scrutinizing it and sort of keeping asking that question of what about this, what about that, and then just getting that balance right, I think, between the upper end of where it could go.
tyson (12:13.668)
It is it. It's a diffi- It is it.
Yeah, sorry to interrupt you there. I was just going to say it is a really difficult one to monitor. Like it's a difficult one to know what the boundaries are. Do you remember it must've been in like 2007 or eight. I could have those dates wrong, but in the world of swimming, like every world record just started to get broken because they bought in those long swimsuits. Maybe it was, maybe it was earlier. And I remember that conversation taking place like, all right, well, we, this doesn't seem right.
But then it's sort of hard to know what the limit is because I think you were telling me that one of the stack heights for the shoes was limited to it was at 40 mil now, or there was like a particular race height that has currently been accepted. But really during the early conversations, it just seems arbitrary, doesn't it? Like 40 is okay, but 45 is a little bit rough. 100, you're probably not gonna be able to stand up. Like it's hard to know where to draw the, yeah.
Thomo (13:09.296)
Thank you, Andrew.
tyson (13:13.859)
It's, um, but to go to your point about what they were saying with the, um, with the athletes who had been represented by a certain brand and paid for a while, I mean, as an athlete, you'd be dirty at the company that you're supposed to represent that they hadn't been, you know, uh, up to date with what was available and yeah, understandably as a brand, you'd be like, okay, well, I want you to wear our shoes, but it kind of makes sense to me that athletes sort of gave the middle finger to their, to their own companies in, in some regard, because it's like, well, if you.
racing against people who simply because of the fact that they've got a sponsorship by a brand who is known for having sort of, you know, breaking technology pretty much in all fronts, particularly in the world of running and you're stuck with the, you know, your Nike Pegasus brand or the equivalent when you're lining up for an Olympic marathon trial. I would be, as much as I hate to admit it, like I would be the bloke running in a pair of Nikes as well if it was going to give me a bit of an advantage, but at the same time it's...
Thomo (14:00.255)
Yeah.
tyson (14:12.251)
Yeah, you're right. It would have been a very interesting time to be a fly on the wall. This would have been angry athlete and angry brand ambassador trying to speed up the technology of their own brand.
Thomo (14:22.834)
not exactly the race preparation that you'd want psychologically, I reckon, prior to knowing that there's these shoes with perceived benefits, you know, and you're not wearing them and then having to raise that with your sponsor. Yeah. Interesting times, but, you know, getting through that phase, you know, of the people who are at the forefront with the Nikes leading the way and now seeing
every other shoe company get on board with it. You know, this Berlin marathon on the weekend where the female winner ran two hours, 11 minutes, you know, or just under two hours, 12 minutes for the marathon. And she's wearing the latest Adidas shoes that
Again, it's gone another step. Like these things are not cheap shoes, right? Anyone who's running at the moment knows that, oh, some we've jumped up a hundred bucks at least as far as the budget goes for your normal shoes that you sort of investing in. And these shoes, I think again, are another step up and you can't wear them much more than four or five times. I've sort of quickly read there about these shoes. But when you see the results of what this female athlete from Ethiopia did,
on the weekend, again, it's just going to feel that fire even more. This everyone, it's incredible marketing really, when you think about it. Um, yeah, Nike were the first to do this and they did it so well that, uh, I know in the major city marathons afterwards, like I ran in 2019, I had a run around the Melbourne marathon, I just couldn't believe how many people in the just general population marathon, um, were wearing these Nike.
um, next percent or whatever, like 2% force and, uh, you know, super shoes, Pogo shoes, and, um, it was, yeah, it just seemed to like athletes foot is, we were, it was all about, you know, the right shoe for the type of foot you've got, well, all of that was just thrown out the window, it would say, when you look down some Kildare road running down there, cause there was all types of pronation issues going on, people breaking ankles that looked like, like you couldn't blow. And it just.
tyson (16:33.195)
Hahaha!
Thomo (16:36.798)
Yeah, it showed the marketing was really doing a great job. But everyone had, you know, it's one of those things, throwing the baby out with a bathwater, so to speak. And yeah, the other advantages in performance, like, you know, supporting your foot in the way it should have been supported, you know, to improve performance was forgotten about during that time. And so, yeah, like, I mean, even Nike would explain that these shoes, and I think they're even written on a pair of the Nexper centers.
They're designed for elite and performers. And we know that when we watch the African, East African runners, they run a little bit different than the average population person. Like some of the general population may run similar, but these have been specifically made for the East African runner who typically runs very much mid-foot to forefoot striker. Virtually no heel is touching the ground with a lot of them.
I can't say that that's the whole population from East Africa, of course. It's all generalizations there a little bit, but these things have been designed for runners who are moving fast across the ground. For example, you don't see a sprinter running on their heels, do you? You always see a sprinter off the forefoot. The faster they're running, of course, these shoes need to be designed for someone who's a mid to forefoot striker.
tyson (17:51.923)
Yeah.
Thomo (18:03.006)
are running fast, they're running incredibly fast. The women are now running to 11 for a marathon. So, you know, we are in a different category, I would say, but the marketing just shows that everyone wants to get on this train and just see what they do. Cause I think talking to another guy, there's some studies out there that are starting to surface now about how they are great for some people, but just terrible for others. And so.
What I was seeing down St. Kilda Road is starting to get some evidence behind it where it may have a detriment to your performance rather than an improvement. So you still need to think about it. It's not just this one size fits all scenario.
tyson (18:44.703)
Gee, I wonder how Brett Robinson feels, or Brett Robertson. Like what a crazy feeling that is to recently break the Australian record, then all of a sudden you look around and just a few breaths away now is the fastest woman in the world. Like it's gonna be pretty humbling if it ever gets to a point where like the fastest woman has outdone the fastest men for the Australian record. I'm hoping these new shoot updates correlate to faster performances for all of us because we gotta keep ahead of these girls when it comes to our.
these marathon performances. It's gonna be a bit embarrassing for Australia if the Kenyan girls start out doing this on the result sheet. Just to go back to your point you made earlier as well, to one up your story about seeing all the next percents and things, I saw a bloke at my gym in a pair of vapor flies a while ago, he's just doing some squats. And he looked fantastic doing his squats, but I didn't say anything to him, but I remember thinking just, I feel as though he misunderstood.
Thomo (19:39.011)
Thank you.
tyson (19:39.123)
The concept, if you were told to go out there and do a 10K race right now, I think you'd be far more ready than what you realize. It is unbelievable. That marketing element is crazy. Man, I got full, just hook line and sink caught up in that. This is like another conversation, but I kinda have a little deal with myself that I'm not buying Nike anymore. Nike just do my head in. I'm so sick of all the woke ads. I'm so sick of like.
Thomo (19:45.634)
Oh, yeah.
tyson (20:06.527)
just the virtue signaling of big companies. It just does my head in. So I'm like, all right, I'm gonna have my own little protest and just buy companies that are just normal and not trying to just tick all these, all these little virtue signal boxes. Anyway, the vapor flies come out, the next percent's come out and I go, all right, you know what, actually, the ads aren't that bad. They're pretty good. I see what they're doing. Maybe I can get myself a pair of these shoes and run fast. As soon as I saw Kipcho go running around in them as well.
like yeah, first of all, he's first crack at that sub two barrier, then he's second attempt where he's actually successful. It's kind of hard to argue with and from like the marketing perspective, as you said, like if that's true, these new shoes, they're going to cost five or 600 bucks in Australia, probably you can wear them five times. What a business model.
Thomo (20:53.506)
Oh, love it. You know, I've run for many, many years, but I've done some triathlon in the past. And, you know, I realized that runners, you know, those real authentic runners out there who haven't put that money forward for a pair of shoes, we've been conditioned into a very low budget type sport, you know, and we try to.
you know, fight for that low budget too, I think. And you know, you look for the good deals around the shop. And, um, but triathlon, that was a completely different, um, example of sports to me when I started doing that. And it was like, you got to have a bike, you got to have a wetsuit, you got to have shoes, uh, training shoes and then the racing shoes and then, and every other thing there, as far as the training bike goes, and then the time trial bike and the money, it was just like, you're doing this, you know, um, just to be a part of the sport. So.
tyson (21:47.577)
Yeah.
Thomo (21:48.082)
going back to running after Tri and Triathlon for a little time. Um, it was a pleasure to come back to running cause things were affordable again and, um, you know, family wise, it was a friendly sport, but, um, yeah, now it's starting to push up into that Triathlon realm there and, um, and get that flashiness about it. And yeah, as far as that business model goes, what a great, great idea. Now that they've, they've broken the ice with, okay, we're going to jump up to a price point of, you know, 300 plus 400. If we really make a
FOMO kind of feel to the shoe. And then now, once we're at that stage, we're gonna bring in this next one that doesn't last for any more than four or five runs. But yeah, that concept, I think back in the day, Carl Lewis, he was sponsored by Mizuno back in the day, when he was Olympic champion back in the 88, 90, sort of 90s, early 90s, sort of.
era there and he had the one wear shoe I remember. So it's a new, not a new concept, but maybe it just didn't sort of take off back in Carl Luss's days and they didn't get the kind of, the environment right or, you know, but they do now.
tyson (22:59.747)
Yeah, yeah for sure. I definitely, and not that I should be anyone to listen to on shoe technology. I mean, just I'm a fan, I'm an armchair critic, but I just completely underestimated how much of an impact it does make. Like I knew obviously to an extent, you're not gonna run in gumboots and run your best time, but I thought 10 years ago, like when you got a really light parrot, except who?
Thomo (23:20.654)
Cliffy Young, you remember the guy from Colac who was an old marathoner? Literally ran around in gumboots, yep. Ha ha ha! Wonderful.
tyson (23:23.135)
Oh yeah, yeah. Apart from him. That's right, that's right. Sorry, I'll restate that. You're not gonna break any fast marathon records in a pair of gumboots. You might be able to shuffle forever and ever and ever and get a reputation for yourself. But yeah, you put on a light pair of shoes and you go, okay, like surely this is the best it gets. And I remember Motrum, like it might've even been in the Big Masungo that-
Thomo (23:38.336)
Ha ha
and then.
tyson (23:51.155)
little documentary that they did on him in around 2006, was speaking about one of the, I don't know what his title was, one of the Nike scientists or shoe scientists or whatever their title is, just doing some work saying, all right, like if we can even take half a second off each of your laps based on this shoe, like that's, what's that, seven seconds, eight seconds over the course of 5K, that's the difference between like a place and a win. And I remember watching that and thinking, that's actually, like that sounds reasonable, like half a second over a lap, surely.
Thomo (23:54.621)
Yep.
Thomo (24:15.117)
Yeah.
tyson (24:20.903)
And I guess if you apply that same theory to the course of a marathon, you start to see what it is that we're seeing at the moment. So yeah, man, it's been really interesting. I don't know, like for a marathon, obviously you've got your shoes, you've got things like gels and a whole lot more focus on nutrition and fueling than what we had sort of in the eighties and early nineties, which I think was just like a diet Coke and a banana. But even yesterday I was speaking to one of the athletes, one of the athletes that I coach.
Thomo (24:45.066)
Yeah.
tyson (24:50.423)
And like the only real experience I've had with the Jells is through one of the sponsors for this show, Precision Fuel and Hydration. And I mean, I like their stuff. I haven't sort of ventured out and tried a whole heap, but I said to this bloke Brock yesterday, I was like, mate, like what are you, cause he's running the Melbourne Marathon and this week he's gonna go out and run around 34K. And I said, hey, use it as an opportunity. Like have you been practicing your fueling and hydration and things?
And he's like, yeah, yeah. I go, mate, what, just out of curiosity, what brand are you using? He's like, mate, I've tried a few of them. My favorite one that just sits best with me is from like Coles or Woolworths. It's like, it's nothing fancy, but for me it just gets the job done. I feel like it keeps me fueled. And it is funny, like the whole idea of how marketing works is a really interesting one because it's, I noticed this in the comedy. It's not necessarily the funniest comedian who also always has the biggest profile.
Sometimes it's the bloke who's got like a little bit of a captive audience psychology behind them. So it might be a bit of a cult hero. He's known for something. And as a result, people buy into it. And the more people that buy into it, the more people buy into it. And all of a sudden, just you're all hypnotized by this wonderful idea. And when he said that, I thought, man, it is very interesting. Cause obviously there's definitive evidence that something like a shoe, it actually works. I mean,
that doesn't look like placebo. That looks as though there's actually something physical taking place there. With the gels, like I often wonder, and again, I don't know a whole heap about it. I've spoken to Andy Blow from Precision a few times and he'd be a better bloke to speak to. But I often wonder how much we buy into sort of a hype of certain products and the effectiveness of it. Like have you thought much about that? I don't know how much experience you had with gels when you were training, probably not something you need so much over five and 10K.
But once you start to venture out to a marathon and sort of triathlon it, it becomes a bit more of the key feature.
Thomo (26:45.814)
Yeah, yeah, look, I late in my competitive sort of running, like I look at my running performances as a pre-kids and post-kids kind of era. And so I've got a 17 year old daughter now. So my competitive days were clearly 17 years ago. And just after she was born, I tried my first marathon. And that was the first time that I really entertained that idea of fueling and having a bit of a practice go at that.
Again, like I said, we were pretty scrupulous with our coin. And so when it came to using the top brands, I think, was it Powerbar were bringing out jowls at that time. And I'd go to, where could I get them from? Oh, you could come to some of these nutrition shops or Rebel Sport or something like that. So I'd go in there and saw the price of them. I can't afford that. Each long run, I go and do so. I'm gonna go to Coles like.
tyson (27:26.251)
That's right.
Thomo (27:40.562)
like your friend sort of said, and I got a brand there from Coles that I thought, yeah, this is good. But the mistake I made was the whole time I trained with these types of gels, which were easy to get down, they were quite liquidy. And the gel side of things sounds like it's a fairly thick side of things, whereas this one's almost cordial and a little satchel, you know? So, but that's what I trained with, got all my
And then when it got to the race, we're on the big day now, we've got to get the good stuff, you know? And so I didn't do any practice with the actual power, sorry, the power bar stuff that I thought was better. And so I got out there in the first sort of 5k and tried to get this gel down it, you know, we're, I think we're running first half, we went through in 69 for the first half at Canberra marathon. And in the first 5k, yeah, Marty Dent actually was pacing us that day for the
for the, um, that my first attempt and a number of other guys that I think, um, Magnus Mikkelsen was in there and, um, Anthony Haber was another runner going around at the time and, um, Gometu Woetcha from, he was an Ethiopian turned Australian, um, out there. So we had a pretty competitive field. Um, and, uh, yeah, I tried to throw this gel down and it was just like honey going down and, and when you're a little bit dry in the mouth sort of thing, it just got all claggy. It was terrible. So.
Um, that's probably where I first started, but the triathlon was the thing that, um, I did a couple of half Ironman, um, events, and that's where you have to, you just have to learn about it, um, cause the duration of the event is just far too long for you to, to do it without fueling throughout the actual event. So, you know, um, the competitive guys were somewhere around four hours, 10 in my age group sort of stuff that I was doing there. So.
And the training rides, you only have to do it once to realize, um, uh, how important it is and that is completely hit the wall in training. Yeah. I went out on a 90 K time trial on the bike and the power just went from my legs. It just, as soon as you hit that depletion time where you haven't refueled properly, um, you've got nothing zero. It just, it's so humbling whenever you hit that wall. And so.
Thomo (29:59.962)
Um, post that sort of triathlon era, I was, I was really personally interested in being a, um, uh, year 12 PD teacher. We started teaching a lot about it. So I started learning a lot more about the ins and outs of it. And yeah, basically there's about 90 minutes of carbohydrates stored in your body. Um, if you don't refuel, you've got up to 90 minutes of basically, uh, um, sub maxable intensity that's, you know, obviously that half marathon kind of pace.
or 10 K to half marathon kind of pace. But beyond that 90 minutes, there is absolutely no way you're gonna be able to keep on going at that intensity if you haven't done anything about refueling. So this technology, I suppose, is adapted. Now there's brands that are even better. And I think what accompanied those super shoes at that time was sponsorship by Morton, I think with Alia Kipchoga. And so, you know, they started bringing out their product and again,
the measures that they had, they were rating it as, you know, better than anything out on the, on the market at that time. And a lot of people got on board with that marketing as well. And I know it's probably one of the preferred, you know, nutritional sort of supplements for people when they're, when they're competing in these endurance events now. So, marketing mixed with science and then performance ultimately, you know, you can claim it, but you got to back it up. And yeah, I think these days we're seeing a lot of backing up of
tyson (31:19.658)
Yeah, yeah, it's a good point.
Thomo (31:24.054)
Pretty incredible performances basically, so.
tyson (31:27.44)
Sorry, man, I lost you. I lost you on that last little part of the sentence. I you came back in at performances
Thomo (31:32.71)
Yeah. So I was just sort of saying that, um, the, you know, backing up is really important after you get the marketing, right? Obviously, cause they're claiming these performances. And, um, if, if they don't back them up, that falls flat, right? But we're seeing a lot of backing up of, um, the claims now. And, uh, I think that's the thing that was through our conversation the other day, it's not just limited to the, um, marathon endurance events anymore. You know, we're seeing Ingebrigtsen. Just.
repeatedly running three thirties and just below. I mean, every championship recently, it just seems that under three minutes 30, it's incredible. And so I'm interested in what, what this guy's up to, you know, there's, there's obviously we're going to be real about things as well. We can only judge things off what we know. But what we can see that is going well is he's brought the sports science into everyday practice.
you know, like just seeing, like we talked about the other day, it's seeing that, you know, lactate testing is taking place after each rep of, you know, say, um, a threshold type run, um, or, you know, a tempo run or, um, you know, just, just saying where, where that actual, um, blood lactate level is, um, so that you can gauge intensity as specifically as you can within training. So yeah, watching, I recommend people have a look into some of the, um,
tyson (32:28.829)
Hmm.
Thomo (32:56.886)
You know, it's a little bit reality TV obviously, but the Ingle Britson's brought out early in the, in the, um, that family's sort of careers, a bit of a reality TV show it's on, on YouTube and you can check it out, but, um, it's pretty interesting when you watch what's going on in the training, um, you know, um, they're, they're just going to normal courses like everyone would find in their local area when they're runners, you know, they're not, um, in laboratories, you know, doing a specific VO two max type testing as such, but, um,
they are trying to bring that science lab into their everyday practice as well. So, and it's, you know, you hear about the one percenters that's what matters when you get to a certain level, when everyone's very similar ability, everyone's doing the same things training wise, what things can you bring into your training that set you apart from the rest of the field? And I mean, training with Benita Willis many years ago now, I think she
there was no coincidence why she became the athlete she did. For a few years, she strung together, not only all the big chunk of training, but all those 1% things that would improve her performance. It was early on in the piece, but there were these flotation tanks up at the AIS that were available to us when we were training up there on scholarship. And none of the group were using it, but Benita would sort of disappear during the days and I'd walk...
into the medical, I think it was the medical clinic at the AIS one day. And I don't know, maybe it was a checkup I was there for or whatever and saw Bonita on the way. I said, what are you up to Bonita? And she's like, oh, I just went in the flotation tanks. I'm like, what's that? What do you mean? And basically they sort of theorized that one hour of sleep in this highly concentrated salt pool flotation tank they had available for the athletes for free, which, you know, if you're on scholarship side of things. So
Um, they said that would be worth that seven hours of sleep on the muscles of a night. And I'm just like, ding, like, this is gold. Like, of course. And, you know, so I was just being a bit of a student to seeing what people were, um, doing in bringing into their training to just get those 1% gains. You know, you talk about, um, the Motram example there in the Mizunga, um, where the, the sports physiologist or, um, scientists basically was trying to improve things, you know,
Thomo (35:20.842)
Um, that half second scenario, well, it's the same deal, isn't it? 1%. What's that look like in performance? Well, if you can gather enough of these 1% is then surely there's going to be an improvement to performance down the track. And yeah, I just got really excited about all that kind of stuff. And I think the need as an example, she obviously was a student to it herself and she really wanted to get to the forefront because she was agonizingly close to being the best in the world at that point. She was the probably first to start breaking through.
into consistently, you know, top 10 performances at World Cross Countries. And then all of a sudden, once you'd put another 18 months, two years together of these one percenters, she's world champion. So yeah, it's, it's an interesting time to see what's going on. Like, I mean, the depth in 1500 meter running is off the charts at the moment. Like, I don't know what the stats are. But it's probably 20 plus guys who are running under 331 or something like that. Like, you know, don't have a lot. I'd have to look it up.
you know, got that in fingertips right now. But I know that changed the whole way that these world championships that we just sort of saw run, like and new rules coming into it, those world champs where there wasn't, you know how they used to have automatic qualifiers and then the next fastest qualifiers in the mix, they cut the next fastest out. So it was cut through, it was basically you're in the top six or you're out. So there was no backup plan and watch the next heat just in case.
tyson (36:42.311)
Mm-hmm.
Thomo (36:49.718)
You know, so I was, wow, this is crazy. And, you know, we're seeing guys that would normally be kicking it down off a, you know, 345 kind of pace. And then, you know, everyone sort of comes in there, maybe the 336s or 338s or something like that. And that's normally in the normal and the heats, but it's just got quicker. The whole field has got quicker now. And yeah, of course the whole field now, yeah, it's record numbers basically under, you know,
three thirties whenever they do a diamond league at the moment. So, you know, what was Stuart McSwain's recent running that with Inga Britson? He ran three 48. Yeah. Three, well, I thought we have three 48, three 49. And like any other day that's winning the race. That's just off the charts. And he was way back in the field. Was he like 11th or something? Seventh and the 11th. Okay.
tyson (37:27.637)
What? He's 349 at pre? Yeah.
Yeah.
tyson (37:43.731)
I thought that something like, yeah, I reckon maybe closer to seventh. I remember that like three 49 is an, um, like that weekend that Stewie had was unbelievable. Like, yeah, you, you forget any other, if he had to run three 49 in one, uh, race at one part of the season and then backed up with the seven 31 over three K, which he did the day after over 3000 meters, people go, Oh, Stewie's back.
But somehow you're right, like in amongst the depth that there is now, it was kind of, and also ran as crazy as that sounds. The other thing that's happening is not only are athletes running faster en masse than I've ever seen before, young athletes are running faster than I've ever seen before. Stewie in that race was beaten by an 18 year old kid from, I think it was from either Norway or I don't know, it was one of those European countries. What's his name?
Thomo (38:28.846)
Poland.
Thomo (38:33.335)
It was from Holland, I think. I know, I mean, in a, yeah, where's the orange kit when they run in the world champs, don't they? So, yeah, yeah.
tyson (38:39.939)
Yeah, dude, he's 18. He's 18, not even to mention our boy, Cam Myers. Like who run, he's run 333 at 16 or 17, sorry. Now I'm not sure of the name of this bloke. Pace the first 800, yeah.
Thomo (38:49.45)
Yeah. And he was, he was pacing that mile at, um, yeah. Yeah. Um, I'm just looking up the results here. Stuart McSwain 10th at, um, at the pre-fontaine and you ran 349.32. So you're, you're right there. Um, 349 though, like this is unbelievable. As you sort of said, we don't often see that we, we'd probably get excited. Low three fifties. Someone is in amazing form, but you know,
tyson (39:01.605)
I was 10th, well...
Thomo (39:18.85)
you've got Ingebrigtsen, Nugus, Nugusi, I should say, 343.73, 343.97. And that's close. That's again, like I was sort of saying there, sprint finish type stuff. And they're running 343s, but yeah, in saying that though, like Noan Yang was that person, probably these performances need that extra person pushing a Ingebrigtsen the whole way, right? It was the same with Noan Yang and Al Girouj back in the day. Al Girouj never.
tyson (39:32.049)
Yeah.
Thomo (39:47.946)
really had it his whole own way. You know, like you look at his Olympic progression, there was a heartache type story with a Guruj that never got that gold medal. And it's because he was pushed so hard by the rest of the field. So we're probably based on that depth where we're really probably on the doorstep of records being reset. And it'd be super interesting to see if that Daniel Komen 3K gets touched. Like that's 720, 1996.
tyson (40:14.7)
Yeah.
Thomo (40:17.642)
Was it 96, 97, 720 that he ran for 3k? I wonder. There are three seconds from it now, which is a long way.
tyson (40:22.591)
Yeah, it's what I think.
tyson (40:27.643)
That is a wild, wild record, isn't it? When you think about that, like the fact that no one's come within three seconds of it in what's it 27 years is pretty terrifying. It's such a sweet spot for a bloke like Coleman. And Goosey, yeah, I don't know how, I've completely lost confidence in my ability to say his name, but you know who I'm talking about, the American 343.97. And Goosey, yeah, I watched him at the American truck.
Thomo (40:31.179)
Yeah.
Thomo (40:35.966)
Yep.
Thomo (40:47.197)
Yeah, I think you are right.
Thomo (40:51.938)
Oh, shoot.
tyson (40:56.187)
I watched him at the American trials and he looks like an athlete who, you know when you look at some athletes and they just seem to do it easy, like you watch him and despite the fact he's running 343, you go dude, like you may as well, to an untrained eye, you're just jogging. Like if no one knew what it was they were watching right now, it looks effortless. Actually at the American trials it was interesting because they had some kind of heart rate thing going on the guys. I don't know if you saw that.
Thomo (41:13.728)
Yeah.
tyson (41:22.459)
And despite how effortless it looked like he was working with like a lap to go, his heart rate was sitting at like 193. Like he was working, but you look at it on the surface and it's that duck's legs underwater just going for it. And I'm always interested in that because they're like, I don't care who you are, 196 or 190 beats per minute, you're working bloody hard. It's interesting to see how some people seem to be able to tolerate that kind of discomfort. And doing a little bit of technique work with some of the athletes that I'm
Thomo (41:42.731)
Yeah.
tyson (41:51.815)
working with at the moment. It's interesting when stress and when, whether that's like physical fatigue stress or whether that's competitive stress because someone's right on your shoulder and there's 300 meters to go. I'm fascinated at watching how people navigate that kind of tension. Some people you see that just scream straight out through their face, their neck, their shoulders, their hands, everything tenses up. But then you have like an Ingebrigtsen or an Ngoosi or like an Algarouge back in the day.
some people seem to have an ability to be able to funnel that tension in a way which actually allows their technique to remain like or even become more efficient like their arm swing gets a bit more extended. You don't see that tension through their shoulders. I'm fascinated by that because if you've got a bloke running 190 beats per minute looking that smooth like there's lessons whether conscious or unconscious that you can tap into from that guide that I'd love to be able to have that conversation with because
That's one thing that I was really encouraged about from a young age was, sure, like you look at the best athletes in the world, and there are exceptions to this, but pretty much like the fastest men over 100 and to the marathon, same with the women, they also almost universally look as though they're doing it the easiest as well. And there's certain,
Thomo (43:07.35)
Yeah, totally.
Talking about the marketing side of things, no, that's all right. Talking about the marketing side of things on that point that you're making, I think it's easy to watch those super relaxed athletes and not give them credit for how fast they are actually moving across the ground because the dilemma is they need to make it as relaxed as possible to extend their performance. But in doing so, it almost discredits
tyson (43:12.635)
Sorry, you go on me.
Thomo (43:40.962)
Um, the average, um, you know, viewer, um, in, in what, what they can see is going on because they are like you sort of say with Nugusi there, Nugusi, um, he just looks like he's just fluent, just going out for a bit of a stride, you know, um, yet, yet clearly not the case. So it's this kind of, um, paradigm where they're just balancing to, um, scenarios out where they've got to look and feel super relaxed, um, at.
the hardest they can possibly go. It's, that's, there's a real, again, talking about psychology, that real psycho-physical kind of link to it. And I wonder where it starts is, you know, with those, those runners who are digging in so hard that it's all coming out in their face. I remember Morrie Plant, you remember the late Morrie Plant as a commentator for a lot of the Melbourne Meats and, you know, international athletics agent.
tyson (44:32.423)
Mm-hmm.
Thomo (44:40.158)
Um, he, uh, he was one of the best commentators and there was a guy, um, I think it was Sammy Legat and the guy had a set of chompers on him. He had some big teeth basically. And when he was coming into the home straight, he would be just gritting his teeth and they'd be just like, you see these big teeth basically just, and he's, and it's tense. It's not this relaxed kind of paradigm we're talking about. It was just.
You knew exactly how hard this guy is putting into it. And I remember Morrie Plants saying, and in comes Sammy LeCat. I think it was Sammy LeCat. I hope it was. But bearing his molars to the breeze. So like literally the wind rushing past this phase. You know, that's it. It's contrast in athletes. You know, you've got one person here who everyone knows how hard this guy's going. In fact, we're a bit worried he's going to trip over or hurt someone who's trying to
tyson (45:21.719)
There you go.
tyson (45:26.419)
Hahaha.
Thomo (45:36.598)
run past him because it's like an octopus in a washing machine sort of thing, you know, arms and legs going everywhere compared to those smooth moves like Ingebrigtsen who are just, he's so, so good, like under 330. And it just looks like he's out for a little bit of a stride at the end of his session.
tyson (45:58.679)
I want another one percenter, which I think is often, or maybe not overlooked, but it's not talked about as much as I reckon it should be, is the younger brother syndrome or the younger sibling syndrome. To be the youngest of three boys in that family is unbelievable, just to have, because you know when you're a young kid, like my example was, I dreamed of playing AFL first, like that was my first love. But as a young guy, like my dad, he had a little bit of a run around on the foot scray list as a young guy and...
Thomo (46:08.247)
Yeah.
tyson (46:25.659)
I remember growing up with him and thinking, well, if he had a look in, like what's so special about that? Like he had a look in with a club and that's like a very micro, uh, sort of sneak behind the curtains of, of what must take place in a mind of a bloke like Ingebrigtsen, like you're looking at your two older brothers who are both Olympians, the best in their country and you're training with them every single day, not only, uh, you know, learning about the training and actually probably being forced.
a little beyond where most 14 or 13, 14, 15 year old kids are. But just being able to tap into the psychology of that, like going, okay, well, these are my two older brothers. They're very talented. They're saying I'm talented. I'm doing the work with them. All of a sudden, those outlandish kind of goals start to look very reasonable. And I think there's another great example. And for listeners overseas, here in Australia this weekend, we've got the AFL, arguably our most popular sport here in Australia.
taking place in Melbourne and in one of the teams, Collingwood football club, the, the Daycos boys, you've got Josh Daycos, who is, I don't know his age, but then you've got his younger brother, Nick Daycos, who's, you know, lucky not to win the best in the league or unlucky not to win the best in the whole league this year. But the younger brother often credits the fact that, okay, his older brother is five years older than him. And he used to rub shoulders with his brother who was playing in VFL list, trying to get a game in the AFL list.
And all of a sudden, just that huge big leap that it seems to be from like an aspiring 14 year old kid, I just feel as though that's narrowed a whole lot. So I'm really fascinated with that dynamic in families as well. Like how much of an impact does having someone who's good at what they do help a younger kid, even on a more local scale. I used to run with Dean Huffa and Craig Huffa. There was about a five year gap there. And Dean Huffa was maybe a 345, 1500 meter runner.
And Craig Huffer used to run around with him and he had like a level of confidence, which I really admired, especially looking back now that we weren't competitive, or now that we're not competitive, because I would look at that and I'd go, it's unbelievable how much you back yourself. But then you'd go to his house and Dean would say, yeah, I'm good, but Craig's more talented. And his dad Dennis would be like, yeah, you're more talented, like blah, blah. And you go, how can you be anything but backing yourself in an environment like this?
Thomo (48:42.858)
Yeah, no, you're right. You're absolutely tapping into something I think absolutely is real in, in building a culture of success. Um, and when you can take that snippet of a, you know, fairly insular kind of example, like a family setting that real, very pure, um, you know, family competitiveness, where the little brother just wants to beat the big brother cause the big brother was always better. So they've just got this constant day to day kind of
yearning to, you know, drive their, whatever the focus or value is in that kind of competitive sort of field. And, you know, uh, you know, you talk football side of things, um, in, in running, it's, it's absolutely there. And I think it's transferable basically across many different kind of areas where you want performance. If you can breed that culture. That it's just always at the forefront of people's mind. Like, I mean, you goal setting one on one, um, you know, Kathy Freeman, she, uh,
had a devastation of not making the medal podium in 1995, I believe, at the World Champs. And for a year on the way home from those World Champs in Gothenburg, she wrote down, I think it was on the sick bag in the plane, in the in the pouch in front of her where she was sitting in a seat, wrote down, she wrote the number 48.6.
down on the sick bag and then she transferred that onto a sticky note and she put it on a mirror at home and every day She was like combing her hair, you know brushing the teeth. Whatever. She would be reminded that goal It was right there up in the top corner each day. It's just that forefront of mind stuff and you know 12 months down the track 1996 Olympics, you know What what time did she run in the final to almost beat Marie Jose? Correct 48.63 still the Australian record 400. So, you know like these kind of things that are
your reminder systems, you know, your brother can't get much more of a reminder system when they're rubbing your face in it, obviously of like, Oh, look what I just did, you know, Inga Britson as a younger brother, he was told he is now, you're not allowed to do the training. You're not allowed to do the training. You're too young. You're too young. You have to sit on the sidelines because you watch some of those early, the Inga Britson's reality TV show, and it shows the culture that was in the family of what was valued, you know, and what, what we all strive for.
tyson (50:37.846)
He's got his needs and his mind and system. I'd rather not get much more of his mind and system. He's got his needs and his mind and system. He doesn't need any other.
Thomo (51:05.734)
And, but we're not going to let you do it just yet. It's just like candy, you know, kid in the candy store stuff. We will show you what it's like, but you're not allowed to do it just yet. Uh, I just reckon it's yeah, absolutely spot on there. And if you can get that kind of drive, um, where, uh, you've got someone who's responsible overseeing it, but you can just keep that, um, that, that group of people trying to perform chafing at the bit sort of thing, um, where they're just ready to go for a long period of time, then
That's where champions are born for sure.
tyson (51:38.068)
Yeah, it's so true. Yeah, that whole dynamic's interesting. I haven't seen that Inga Brickson documentary series. I've seen little snippets of it. I might have to check it out. Yeah, it sounds like a good one. There's not much like that in the world of Distant Runners as well. There's not much of an insight into the training and lifestyles. I mean, people like Matt Fox with Sweat Elite, the YouTube channel, and there's a couple of YouTube channels which are quite similar to that.
gives you like a really good taste test now. Like thank God for YouTube, it really opened your eyes to, just some of the training practices and diets and mindsets and things that are out there. But yeah, growing up, I remember it would have been such a treat, it was all, like I had a couple of Brendan Foster books and maybe you tap into a said co-documentary if someone from Glenn Huntley Athletics Track would just give me the VHS to take home. But apart from that, there wasn't much really that you could just jump online and have a look at. So.
Thomo (52:24.988)
Hehehehehe
tyson (52:31.311)
I mean, yeah, it's a really interesting time, as you say. It's an exciting time for not just Australian distance running, but to be honest, like track and field in general. It's just been wild to see what people are capable of. So, man, the next 12 months, I'm excited for seeing Stewie back at his best is great. Young Ken Myers. It's the first time where I'm at age bracket now. I think I'm about eight years younger than you. So you might have seen it a little maybe once before me. But where you see like a fresh young batch of athletes come through.
And you go, oh my gosh, like, all right, it's a, I've been pushed into a different category now, like the fresh batch are here and ready to roll. And I both love it and hate it. I hate it from the perspective that like, okay, my time's done at this level, but I love it from the perspective of like, all right, this is really exciting to watch as an athletics fan, I guess.
Thomo (53:21.066)
Yeah, absolutely. Um, it is, when you're in the sport or at least you're interested in the sport long enough, like you and I have been, um, you do really appreciate those, um, ebbs and flows of, of performance. And, and so, yeah, look, going back to what we talked about in the start, some people, uh, are critics of all the new technology, um, that's surfacing in, in running shoe technology for, for athletes. But I think it's more than that. I think it's, we've got.
All the worlds are aligning since, so to speak. We've got a lot of sports science that people are tuned into and using as everyday practice now. We've got a lot of psychology as we've been talking about today, where people are really on top of that side of things. There's a lot more developmental support now, where many athletes are lost, when they are in that sort of transitional youth kind of era, to other sports, potentially they've got that support down pack. So we're starting to see that, you know, like with Motram's
on running group that he's got going now. He's trying to target that sort of development. You know, Melbourne Track Club's done that since back in 1996. They've sort of been trying to develop people through. And you know, the scholarships that we're about also tried to do that, but I think we're starting to see the balance get right. And we're keeping people in the sport most importantly, and you know, that utilization of the college scholarship opportunity seems to be one that's
it's been an important step for getting people through that kind of no man's land where we do lose the athletes because there's just not enough support out there. So and then that's probably where some of that culture is built to a value during those years where we can see that psychology of people hanging into a sport because there's no greater place really than America to get a bit of atmosphere at high school college kind of level for sporting championships. You know, so anyone who's tasted that.
in the athletics realm, they've come back a different athlete. I remember Mike Power coming back in the 2000s era after running with Arkansas. He was always a very good athlete, but he was for sure, like every one of us, at risk of being lost to the sport during those years. Instead, he went to Arkansas and he just raced and he trained hard and he came back and he just, he was setting the standard for us all. So, yeah. And then that's like that little brother thing. Cause I actually
Thomo (55:43.99)
When I was running, I looked like a mini version of Mike Power. Actually he was probably a lot bigger, a lot taller, but I could have been past his little brother. And so that sort of pushed me along a little bit too, to just say, Hey, he can do it, maybe I could too, maybe. So, yeah, no, it's a, it's definitely a very cool time to be a witness to, um, athletics and I love the excitement that we're starting to see come out of it, marketing, the whole works, you know, there'll be people who debate the ethics behind things for sure. But.
tyson (55:59.716)
Yeah.
Thomo (56:12.602)
Overall, I think athletics is going to benefit. And just on a side note, I wish we had caught up, but I went up to the World Cross Country at Bathurst and that certainly needs some unpacking. What a great championships that was.
tyson (56:29.86)
Oh dude, well, hey, it's an open invitation. Maybe we do that. I would love to do it with you, man. But I told you at the start of this podcast, I have a hard cutoff if I want my wife to stay married to me. I'm taking the kids at four, it's 3.57 and they're over at the park. So I'm gonna have to hang up and run. But dude, hey, thanks so much for coming on, man. It's always fun chatting with you.
Thomo (56:33.104)
Yeah.
Thomo (56:45.346)
Get out of here.
Thomo (56:50.098)
Yeah, no worries Toss. Very good mate.
tyson (56:54.719)
I'll leave you to it. I'll see you soon. See you later everybody.
Awesome, man. Dude, you're a legend. That was um, I'll cut that off there. That was