Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
How to Humanist asks life’s questions big and small with the help of brilliant humans along the way.
SHAY: Welcome to How to Humanist. It's Shay Leonia. It has been such a wow kind of weekend. This was the weekend of the American Empathy Project, and I don't know about you, but the entire team at the American Humanist Association participated, and so many thousands of people across the country participated in the 101 events — and possibly more — that happened around the country, participating in mutual aid for these communities.
The one that I participated in — you know what, I'm gonna hold off on sharing the details around mine, because mine was in Philadelphia and it did deal with one of the vulnerable communities, so I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to share. I did discuss bringing on the organizers of that one onto the podcast, so hopefully we will get to talk more about that. Because it is something that I feel strongly about, but it was a very emotional weekend for me. Shout out to my sister who was available to console me immediately after I left, because your girl definitely needed consoling.
What a wonderful, wonderful weekend. And I am just really, really proud of my team for pulling this together — especially the organizing team, the comms team. Especially to Jake, Danielle, Christina, Sage, Court — man, we did the thing. We did the thing. And Peter, oh my gosh, Peter with all the website stuff.
So thank you to everybody that helped. And we could not have done it without the support of the creator partners that we work with. I mean, so many people talk shit about influencers these days, but let me tell you something — the influencers that we work with are more than just that. They are partners, and they are partners with a cause. They're not trying to push fast food convenience meals on people. They're actually out here trying to promote, you know, people like us. You all.
I, this is not coming out how I'm intending for it to come out. So I'm just gonna stop talking.
Anyway, I wanted to read to you the latest review. Thank you — is it Plevin? I don't know how to say it, but five stars. Thank you so much. They said, thoughtful and enjoyable, thought-provoking interviews without being overly serious. As someone new to humanism, I've already learned a lot about what humanism is all about. I also love the diversity of experiences and stories. Thank you so much.
Also, I know I'm behind on getting back to some people that have been in my personal Instagram inbox. So thank you so much for reaching out to me. I've been seeing people suggesting some subjects that they would like me to cover and I see you. I am just behind on getting back to you. So I promise that I am right on top of that, and I will get to it.
But in the meantime, I hope you enjoy today's episode. First, you're gonna hear from Fish, who is not going to the chapel but is gonna get married. And then you're gonna hear from one of our favorite humanist celebrants, Bethel Nathan, who you can hire by going to the show notes and learning all about bringing her on board to get you married. I can't speak anymore. I ain't got it left in me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SHAY: Let's talk wedding stuff.
FISH: Okay, cool. So you're getting married?
SHAY: I am getting married. I'm getting married on June 27th. And I'm not a superstitious person, but my dad's birthday was 11/11. It was a palindrome. And so 6/27/26 is also a palindrome. And so there's like a superstition that palindromes are dates that bring good luck. I'm not sure if I buy that. I don't buy that. But there's still something that feels special about getting married on a palindrome day.
SHAY: That immediately makes me wanna think, like, how do you even address that in your mind as good omens? Not to go too far left, but like —
FISH: Yeah, no, it's interesting, right? Like one of my theories about what we call the spiritual is it's really just stuff that makes us feel connected to other things or people in our lives. What's it Taylor Swift says —
SHAY: We may as well go over this sooner than later, but I cannot stand Taylor Swift, and on everything unholy, I cannot believe we are quoting her on this podcast.
FISH: The invisible string, right? Like it's not necessarily magic so much as what makes us feel close to the things and the people we wanna be close to. And so like, there is no part of me that thinks, oh, if I have my wedding day on a palindrome, like I'm gonna be X percent more likely to make more money in 2027 —
SHAY: Yeah.
FISH: Or we're gonna have a baby the first time we try, right? But it makes me feel close to my dad to have that palindrome date. And so I think it may not be an omen, but it's something really special.
SHAY: So I mentioned on my episode with Bethel that I'm a wedding singer, so I've witnessed so many different ceremonies and how the reception goes and how religion just weaves throughout it. I know that you grew up as a humanist. Was there any type of conversation that happened between you and your fiancée around what the ceremony would look like, or did she also have that kind of humanist upbringing?
FISH: So my fiancée is a secular Jew, right? Someone for whom Jewish identity and culture and tradition is very important, but she doesn't believe in God. She's maybe a little more curious and spiritual than I am, but like very firmly agnostic. And so for her it was very much like, I want to make sure our ceremony is and feels Jewish, but not necessarily that it is about honoring our marriage before God. More that like, this is part of my community and my culture and I want to honor that fact. So like, we'll have a chuppah, I'll step on the glass and break it, we'll do the hora — the dance where they put you up on the chair and spin you around.
SHAY: Yep.
FISH: And I'm excited about all of that, right, because that is who she is. That is who our kids will be. That is part of who we are. And my grandfather was Jewish too, so like it isn't —
SHAY: Oh, nice.
FISH: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, mazel tov. Yeah. My zayde, right?
SHAY: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
FISH: But it's about just saying like, this is part of what makes us who we are. Not like we're doing this in a way that is accountable to something supernatural in the sky. And the fun thing about it, and sort of how we're weaving together like, okay, we've got our humanist beliefs and we also have these cultures and traditions that we wanna honor, is we've got a humanist rabbi who is going to do the wedding.
SHAY: Oh, that's so cool.
FISH: Right? Like —
SHAY: Yes.
FISH: Greg Epstein, who is the humanist chaplain at Harvard, who wrote the book Good Without God that some people may have read —
SHAY: You might know him as the first guest on this podcast. Yep.
FISH: Who is just like this amazing interlocutor of humanism and what it means, and who helps students find their way using humanist philosophy, is gonna do it for us.
SHAY: I didn't know that he was marrying you.
FISH: Yeah. He's gonna marry us. He's gonna come down.
SHAY: That's so cool.
FISH: I am psyched. And having someone who is able to bring together some of those Jewish traditions and do it in a humanist way — for us, it's gonna be really beautiful.
Yeah, and that's the thing about a humanist celebrant, right? Like Greg is on another level because he has that training in Jewish thought and those traditions. But like you're never gonna meet a humanist celebrant that's like, no, I don't want to do a glass-breaking ceremony. They don't wanna acknowledge the fact of Jewish identity and Jewish culture in the wedding.
Because — and this is actually what we were talking about last week when we were talking with Greg about how we were gonna prep for the ceremony — he was like, well, what I'm gonna do is a big interview with both of you and I'm gonna custom-build every ceremony around what is specific to you both and your love story and the values and the traditions that you have.
And that reframing of the idea of what a religious professional is there to do at a wedding — from like, they are here to make sure this wedding honors the tradition or honors God in the right way, versus they are there to make sure that you are honoring your values and your marriage and your community in the way that helps sustain you both as a partnership — to me that is both like beautiful for a wedding, but also just evocative about the best things about humanism. That it's not about like, we have to follow this path that was laid out for us millennia ago, but we can work together to figure out the ways to live our best lives in line with our values.
SHAY: It's really interesting too, because there are so many cultures, especially, that feel like it's almost the family's right to have a hand and a say in every aspect of the wedding. Did that —
FISH: Oh, don't misunderstand me. That's definitely happening here.
SHAY: Oh. So, okay. So are you —
FISH: I was just — we've got a Jewish mother and grandmother helping plan the wedding. It just is what it is.
SHAY: Okay. So yeah, so that's what I'm wondering about. Like, is your fiancée a first generation secular Jew in her family? And is that playing into, and interrupting, your decisions around how the ceremony goes?
FISH: Oh, that's a good question. No, she was raised pretty secular. She didn't even have a bat mitzvah as a kid. She actually had one when she was living in Israel. Less about God and more about feeling connected to the Jewish people. I think her dad, interestingly, was raised ultra-Orthodox and is now an atheist. Like, he went —
SHAY: Wow.
FISH: To yeshiva, right? Like the Jewish religious school where they don't teach you real math. And yeah, those are literally his words, like he —
SHAY: Shots fired.
FISH: He got himself kicked out of yeshiva because he's like, I'm not learning. I want to go to public school and I want to learn real stuff the real way. And basically just talked back until he got thrown out of school. And so there was always, because that was his history, very much like, this is who we are as a people and we have to honor that. But there was not a lot of God talk in their house.
So, you know, Maddie sometimes says there's a very thin line between fighting and a Jewish woman talking to her mother. So all the arguments are not about, are you gonna do this or that Jewish tradition. It's like, isn't this color gonna clash with this color? Why aren't all the bridesmaids wearing the same dress? Or why nine months in advance haven't you booked this thing or that thing yet?
So it's nothing to do with, oh, you're not gonna mention God in this part. It's nothing like that.
SHAY: No.
FISH: I mean, I think both of our grandmothers might be a little bit confused about that, but there's very much a, like as long as this part of who you are and who we are is acknowledged, the way in which you do that is not important to us. They love that Greg Epstein is a rabbi. They don't care that he's an atheist.
SHAY: Yeah. Wow, that's so interesting. Yeah. The benchmark that I have for the other side of the pendulum swing is I once attended a Nigerian wedding and I was told — I don't know how accurate this was — but I was told that part of Nigerian tradition is that the wedding is really just about bringing these two people together to decide how much more they're gonna be able to achieve as a couple in terms of serving God. So it really has nothing to do with them and their love together. It's really just about like, great, we're doubling our God power.
FISH: Right? Which to me is like — you know, you're not getting married for yourselves. You're not getting married for your family. You're not even getting married for your community. You're getting married for something that exists outside of all of this. To me, that concept just has no resonance. Like, why get married at all if that's the case?
Because we know there are things about marriage, things about any kind of relationship that involves you compromising and doing the hard work of life with another person, that are challenging. And the reason you do it is because you get to build a family, you get to build a partnership and do things for yourselves and your community that are bigger than you could have done alone. You get to bring together two amazing communities and families. Those are all reasons that are more than worth the work of day in and day out being a good partner.
But this idea that it's to glorify something completely outside of yourself — it doesn't feel motivating to do the work of marriage.
I really love — there's a quote from Homer that I was talking about at our engagement party when we did our toast. Homer said, there is nothing more admirable than when two people who see eye to eye keep house as man and wife, confounding their enemies and delighting their friends.
SHAY: Oh, I love that.
FISH: Right? And I love that vision for marriage. Like it is a — you are bringing joy to the people around you through your love, and you are frustrating —
SHAY: Yeah.
FISH: Whatever the enemy is through your partnership. You are doing more to do your work in the world than you could do alone.
SHAY: Right. Oh, I love that. What about the people that are gonna be listening that are in a position — I know this comes up a lot with things like baptisms, where people will be like, the religion and the God aspect of it doesn't mean anything to me, so I might as well acquiesce and just get the baptism done on my child because it means something to my grandparent or something like that. Where do you think they have to go? Do you think that because they're absent of belief they should have to acquiesce, or is it a good consideration? Like what's the most humanist take on not being able to share that view with the person that it really means something to?
FISH: Yeah. I mean, I think the humanist take is that your beliefs are your own, right? Like, our actions aren't always our own because the way we affect other people is something we have a responsibility to. But nobody has the right to tell us what to believe. And I think a baptism, a wedding — it's a statement of belief. And I think it is wrong for someone in either direction, more God or less God, to impose their idea of what someone should believe on someone else, especially at the most beautiful moment of their life.
Now, I also think if someone's making a decision to say like, I don't really agree with this, but the more important thing to me right now, or the only thing I feel I have the ability to do and maintain this relationship right now is go through the motions — that doesn't undermine your humanism. That in a way is sort of mercy to the other person, right?
I remember I have a friend who's a humanist and he got married to someone who is sort of intermittently Catholic. And as I understand it, it wasn't very important to them to have God in the ceremony but was very important to this person's family. And so they had it. And I could see my friend during the ceremony — you could sit close enough and you know somebody, you can read their face. And during the parts that were like, and this marriage is about glorifying God, and all of the very traditional stuff, I got to see the little twitch. And then it was fine. And then it was fine, right?
And then the moment — and there is nothing about that that overshadowed the overwhelming love that they had for each other and the partnership that they had built across this line of difference, around common values. And then just like the way we celebrated them and had a good time. It didn't undermine anything about his humanism or who they are. It just was something that sometimes you do. Sometimes you just nod along to make the elders in your family happy. And like, did you have to do that? Do you have an obligation to do that? I don't think humanism obligates you to do that. But I also think humanism as a pragmatic philosophy, right, that believes that outcomes are more important than abstractions —
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[SHAY interjects: This is where all the space on my computer ran out and we had to end the session abruptly and then regather on a different date to continue the conversation. So it shifts gears into just wrapping things up.]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FISH: If someone is listening to this and they want to marry people or be a celebrant in general, like if they wanna be a steward for people at the most important moments of their lives and help them connect those moments to their values — you can just do it. We have at the Humanist Society an open application. Anyone can apply to be a celebrant. You pay a small application fee and you have to be a member of the AHA, but those are not expensive things to do. And you can apply. For a celebrant, we don't require that someone has a divinity degree. If you wanna be a chaplain, you have to have units of clinical pastoral education, you have to have a master's degree — that's a professional role. But celebrants are often just members of the community supporting friends or family or people they know through these times. We just want to know that you're committed to humanism and committed to doing a good job, and we'll have resources and scripts and trainings there for you to help you do a good job.
So go to the Humanist Society and sign up if what you want to do is marry your friends, or if you're looking to marry your brother and you're like, yeah, but I want to do it not through like Universal Life Church or some weird thing I've never heard of, but like a real-life tradition that appeals to me where my fee is going to get used to support advocacy for the separation of church and state and pro-human values.
SHAY: Love that. And it's just that easy.
FISH: Yeah. I mean, you have to fill out an application, you have to have a short interview. But it's one of those things where it's like, the goal is not to gatekeep. The goal is to make sure that we're supporting people who know what we are about and want to represent it.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FISH: This is Fish Stark, Executive Director of the American Humanist Association. I'm getting married this summer and we could not be more excited, but weddings can be a lot. On top of dealing with caterers and photographers, it just feels challenging to plan a ceremony that both honors my humanist beliefs and my fiancée's Jewish culture and traditions. There is no script for something like that. That's why my fiancée and I are getting help from a humanist celebrant, our friend Greg Epstein, who also happened to be the first ever guest on this podcast.
If you're preparing to celebrate your own love story but you're not excited about a traditional religious celebration, you should consider working with a humanist celebrant like Greg. The Humanist Society can connect you with professional humanist celebrants who are excited to help you and your partner craft a ceremony that reflects your unique story, background, and values. Humanist celebrants are frequently sought out for interfaith, intercultural, and same-sex marriages, but they are available to everyone and they can legally perform marriages in all 50 states.
If you want to explore what it means to invite a humanist celebrant into your wedding, visit thehumanistsociety.org. We've got people who can help.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
BETHEL: So I grew up Jewish. I was raised actively Reform Jewish — bat mitzvah, confirmed, summer camp, the whole deal.
SHAY: Mm-hmm.
BETHEL: Some of the things about being Jewish — and some of the people listening to this might know — a core thing about Judaism is Tikkun Olam, which is healing the world. It's about volunteering and philanthropy and caring for other people. And so that was already a part of me and my perspective. I found that over the years, especially moving to New York where I knew nobody, and then moving to Japan where I knew nobody, some of the best ways to connect are through community. But it wasn't necessarily — and even through my twenties, the religion still mattered because that's how I was raised. But I found myself in my thirties that the religion was less important, but the community and culture was. And so now I typically describe myself as a secular cultural Jew, if at all. And I didn't even know Humanist Judaism existed, by the way.
SHAY: I didn't know that existed either. And that's how my husband was raised, which just blows me away.
BETHEL: His rabbi — wait, he was raised as a Humanist Jew?
SHAY: His rabbi, what? Rabbi Wine is the one who started the tradition. And so I didn't even know he existed. And he's not religious at all, obviously, but especially having been raised Humanist Jewish, it's not just about the traditions and the people. And yeah, his bar mitzvah speech was on a famous Jewish scientist rather than on a Torah portion. So just over the years, especially since I moved back here, it became more about people and connection than it did the religious belief.
And my background in religion doesn't come up in my business at all, because I'd say about 90% of my couples were probably raised in some sort of Christian or Catholic family, but they're not religious themselves. 10% of my couples, one was raised Jewish, but they also aren't religious. So I can help them translate culture and traditions very easily without the religious verbiage that comes with it. But I do that for all of my couples, so it's not part of my professional persona at all.
Obviously some people know — with the name Bethel, I probably am — not necessarily. There are churches named Bethel just as there are synagogues named Bethel. But yeah, that's not part of my public persona.
But I think having been raised Jewish allows me to do non-religious weddings more easily than someone who was raised Christian, because I'll see somebody say something, or maybe it's another officiant or whatever, and I'm like, ooh, that's very Christian verbiage. And they're like, no it's not, it's just English. And I'm like, no, it is. And so I think having been raised outside of that, and as a minority, you're just more aware of verbiage that has a religious tinge to it that others just take as natural, if that makes any sense.
SHAY: Can you give me an example of something like that?
BETHEL: Oh my gosh. I did not even know —
SHAY: We know it when we —
BETHEL: Totally. That's exactly it. And there'll just be certain things that I'm just like, ooh. And it's funny, even there are some officiants where they will talk about, oh, I celebrate even nonbelievers. And I'm like, do you know how insulting that is to a nonbeliever?
SHAY: Oh.
BETHEL: But yeah, so I think it just made it easier for me to have ceremonies that were just love-focused and commitment-focused, and that didn't come with that.
SHAY: Yeah.
BETHEL: So no, I don't come from a clergy background obviously, but I was raised with traditions that don't matter in the religious sense, but it's more the people and the culture to me than anything religious.
SHAY: I'm so excited to be talking to you, particularly because I'm actually a wedding singer, so I get to experience when the religion comes to the reception. I'm usually the MC who is introducing the couples, and I like to see how conservative or traditional the couples are based on whether I'm introducing them as Mr. and Mrs. Insert Husband's Last Name, where the woman's identity is completely erased. And I rarely get to witness what the ceremony itself is like. So many of the ones that I witness are religious, and if they're not religious, the officiant is usually somebody from town hall or something like that.
And so it was so wonderful for me to encounter someone like you who's a celebrant that's able to still not have it be so dry. But what are some of the things that you do to delve into the story and make sure that it's still a fulfilling thing without religion being involved? Like where are some of the places that people listening to this are probably wondering, how are you doing that part without involving religion?
BETHEL: Funny, I had one groom ask me once, so if we take all the religious stuff out, that's not us — what's left? And I said, we don't start there. Like, why would you? So that's not you, so I always start with my couples — let me back up. It's very clear on my website and everything that's said about me that if you want a ceremony that is fun and personal and meaningful and non-traditional, usually non-religious, I'm your person.
I have two lines. I'm okay with some spirituality, usually if it's to satisfy somebody else. Every once in a while I'll have a couple that says my mom needs to hear God once. One couple put it as, can we give her a God shout-out?
SHAY: A God quota.
BETHEL: And so it's as simple as, Mary and Josephine come before God, their families and friends, pledging the love in their hearts to one another. Like great, done, mom or grandma needed to hear it. I said the ceremony is still gonna focus on the core of it, which is your relationship, and we can include a little bit of spirituality to satisfy somebody if you need it. But I won't do it as the core, and if it's part of your life, then you should have somebody who believes what you do, and that is fine.
I had one couple come to me and it was clear, in asking what they want and don't want, that they wanted a Christian-based ceremony. And I'm like, oh, I'm not your person. And they're like, really? And I came and said, why did you come to me? And they're like, we love how personal and sweet everything is that you make it. I'm like, yes, but therefore the core isn't. I said, hey, let me send you to somebody who also believes that and who will also make it personal for you.
So yeah, I want a ceremony that is really about them and about what matters to them. So I ask them what they know they want and don't want from the ceremony, and the don't is just as important for me to know.
And then I walk them through my process and how I work. They do two homework assignments for me, and then we get to decide if we're the right fit. They start filling me in and more often than not, they're like, yeah, we're not religious at all. Sometimes they apologize. They're like, we're not really religious. And I'm like, I'm not religious at all. They're like, oh, good. Either way. So they almost feel like they have to apologize because I think they expect that most officiants or celebrants still come from a religious background. And so there's this relief on their face when they realize they don't want to compromise on that.
And then we find out they want it to be about them and celebrating what they've created. I talk about how many people are joining us guest-wise, because it's really sweet to make everybody feel like a participant in what's happening and not just a witness. I ask them about their families, if they're close to parents, siblings, immediate family, or if it's all crazy dysfunctional.
Because when they're like, no, our parents are still married and they get along super well — I'm like, buy a lottery ticket, because that's not always the case for a wedding. You're very lucky.
SHAY: Can I tell you, the ones that I've done where I'm introducing the bridal party and I get a note about the wedding party — okay, don't introduce the groom's mother because she's gonna be sitting out, but you're introducing the — and it's just all different types of tensions and mix-ups —
BETHEL: Totally.
SHAY: Things we wanna avoid.
BETHEL: Family dynamics and weddings are pretty crazy. And often that's the case too when it comes to how people were raised. Even if they're not living a religiously based life, people feel like they need to because that's how it's supposed to be. And so I tell my couples two things. First off — I say I heard this said years ago, I have no idea who said it originally, but I've absolutely taken it as my own — which is that tradition is just peer pressure from dead people.
SHAY: Ha.
BETHEL: And they're like, oh my gosh, you're totally right. And I said, so all those things you think you should do or have to do, first of all, I want to ask you why you think you do. But that's not necessarily the case.
So the second thing is, I am so happy to be your shield. And if you start getting the shoulds or supposed-tos from family or other people, go, oh no, Bethel said. And I am happy to do that for you. You don't have to worry about it. So giving them permission upfront to not have to drag in anything that doesn't fit them is already a relief.
And then I tell them they're going to do two different homework assignments for me because I want it to be theirs. So the first one is they're going to fill out all sorts of questions about the relationship and each other and what marriage means to them and the wedding and their future. But they're going to do it separately. They do two different questionnaires because they see this differently from each other, and that's a lot of fun to weave both of their voices in.
I said, you see it differently from each other, but also the people who've come to celebrate with you, some of them haven't experienced you together, or they've seen it long distance. Now they get why they're there celebrating too. But there's also plenty of people who only heard it from one voice or the other, and they love the other perspective. And knowing their child, their friend is cared for and respected and appreciated. So I get to be their voice for some of those things that they don't wanna say themselves, or that in the moment they're too mushy to say or lighthearted to think to say. And so I get to take that pressure off and pull their voices in for them too.
And then we figure out all the pieces of the ceremony. I like to approach ceremonies as a huge puzzle. There are loads of puzzle pieces and all sorts of ideas of what we could do. And you're gonna help me figure out what that looks like. So I'm gonna give you ideas and choices on all sorts of readings and quotes and rituals and verbiage as we exchange rings and all sorts of different components that we can do.
And that assignment they do together. They're gonna help me figure out what touches and fits them. And I said, I'm gonna ask you about the tiny little things as much as the big stuff. What do you want me to say before you kiss? Obviously for a straight couple, you may not kiss the bride in the traditional sense, but you don't have to. Some people have been dying to hear that and that's fine. Others are like, what else could we say? You may seal your vows and promises with a kiss. Enjoy your first kiss. Husband and wife. Enjoy your first kiss, wives. I also, but a lot of my couples love and celebrate the fact that they have this egalitarian relationship. So it can be like, Jonathan, you may kiss your bride. Mary, you may kiss your groom. They belong to each other, rather than — but also plenty of lighthearted couples who are like, what's next? Make it a good one. So whatever you want that moment to be.
I said, just because that's one line, I still want you to have a choice about that, because all those things set the tone for all of this.
SHAY: Absolutely.
BETHEL: Just as much as the big stuff. And then they help me figure out those puzzle pieces, and then I build their draft combining my thoughts with theirs. And in my case, I do send them a draft to approve. Not every celebrant does that. But what they don't see in my draft are the stories from their homework, and that way they don't hear each other's answers until the day of, and they're cracking up at each other's answers and choking up at each other's answers. Some celebrants send all of that so that they can approve that part too. I keep that part a surprise. Some celebrants only share an outline and don't even share all the rest of the verbiage. I want them to approve the rest of the verbiage.
But we start by building in a collaborative way, and the blank piece of paper is really intimidating, so I don't ever do that to them. I'd rather give them ideas. And some of the rituals have been adapted in all sorts of ways by my couples, and sometimes those end up being new puzzle pieces. I've had a couple combine two ideas — they loved the chocolate ceremony and loved one of the other ceremonies. So we do something with chocolate. I've written honey ceremonies, tea-blending ceremonies, spice-blending ceremonies, all sorts of different things that are a part of who they are.
In addition to wine ceremonies, San Diego's a craft beer town, so sometimes it's a beer blending or a beer ceremony instead of wine. So there are loads of things to do, and it's really fun to help them figure out what's really them. And as a result, the ceremony ends up setting the tone for the whole rest of the event. So let's do this.
SHAY: Oh, that's so beautiful and considerate. Okay, so we're talking a lot right now for the people that are considering hiring a humanist celebrant. Or do you prefer humanist celebrant or non-religious?
BETHEL: Yep. No, I actually used humanist celebrant and —
SHAY: Oh no, go ahead.
BETHEL: I was gonna say I, when I first started, I didn't know that I could be endorsed by the Humanist Society in order to do that. So I was originally ordained through the Church of Spiritual Humanism. That one kind of felt more fitting for me. And so I had, I was using the title as an ordained officiant, but from the start, I would call myself an ordained officiant, open to all. It was clear I was gonna be celebrating LGBTQ couples from the very beginning, even when Prop 8 and other things that existed at the time made that more difficult. But as time went on, it's like, how do I really describe myself? And so when I found out that I could actually apply to the Humanist Society and be endorsed, I remember having that discussion with them, like, how are you gonna be different now? And I'm like, no. I just found the right verbiage for what I've been doing all along.
SHAY: Oh, I love that.
BETHEL: Yeah.
SHAY: For anyone else who's listening to this and thinking, well, that's something I would love to do, but I don't know, is it for me? What is the work that goes into becoming that? Can you describe some of that process?
BETHEL: Yeah. Becoming an officiant or becoming a humanist celebrant, or both?
SHAY: Let's start — oh, wait. What's the difference between a celebrant and an officiant?
BETHEL: It's just because there was an extra process of applying to become endorsed by the Humanist Society. So you really are going to start largely as an officiant. Now I often will say officiant is the overall umbrella because we're all able to officiate a wedding. So whether you are a religious pastor, whether you are somebody that is ordained online, depending on your state, or a variety of different things for all kinds of officiants — but then we all have our own slice of what it is under there. So I tend to describe officiant as being that kind of umbrella term. So whether you're a rabbi, you're a pastor, you're a mom, whatever, you're still able to officiate a wedding, and that's really what it is.
So a lot of people who start usually did one or two for family members or friends, which is how most of us started. It really is pretty normal. You definitely will have people who will just decide, I want to be an officiant, and they've never done a wedding before. And I'm like, do one first, please. Because to me there are three different parts to being an officiant.
You have, like, how are you going to deliver a ceremony? Can you speak in front of a crowd? Can you do that confidently? Do you have a background in any way of speaking? And for people who aren't as comfortable with that, you have things like Toastmasters that are all around the country, that are a great way to get more experience with that.
And then there's also the, how are you legally able to do this? In some states that's incredibly easy. California being one of them — if you're ordained in any way, shape, or form, you're fine. You can also sign up with the county for a single permission for a single wedding as a deputy commissioner for the day. But it's very easy in most states. There are some states that have additional hoops to jump through.
I happen to do officiant education alongside one of the organizations called American Marriage Ministries. We've been training officiants around the country for a few years with that. And I also have an online course, the Business of Officiating, that is on their platform as well. So it really depends on your state. On their website, they break down every state and whether there are additional things you need to do.
So we have the speaking, we have the legal basis, and then we have the, what are you gonna say? And I think that's the biggest part that people really need to spend time on — figuring out what would make 20 minutes an incredibly meaningful, thoughtful, touching, inspiring experience, whatever your overall approach is. And that's really where a lot of the work then is.
So I tend to tell new people to really put words down on paper about what marriage means to you and what your verbiage and approach are going to be. Because while their story is a part of it, it's not all of it necessarily. And then there's this other bit of it, which is being a ceremony director. Like, when do you tell people to stand or sit or hold hands or move? Some of it you learn as you're doing, but some of it you can learn from working with experienced officiants who will walk you through that. Or when I coach a friend or family member officiant, I teach that part. So after they've come up with their script, we fill in all of those points of when you're gonna tell people to stand or sit, or when you're gonna remind the couple to hold hands, all those kinds of things. And hey, get out of the way of the kiss.
But if you're new, I really recommend you start with somebody that you know who's getting married. That's really the only way to know if this is going to fit you is to actually do it, or maybe do a practice run for somebody.
SHAY: I imagine someone setting up some stuffed animals in the living room and just, marry us.
BETHEL: But what you can do is ask a couple to essentially go through the process with you, whatever you think you're gonna ask them to do, with meaningful questions. And the reality is, I'm 17 years into this, and my homework has changed over the years. Part of it is because I know what questions get me some really good stuff to use. What questions really matter and what do people there really want to know?
I don't call what I do a love story ceremony, because to me a love story is typically the how did they meet, what was the first date, how did they get engaged kind of thing. And sometimes that's really great stuff, and sometimes that is the least interesting part of who they are together. And so I still ask that stuff because I want to know, and sometimes there's really good stuff in there. But a lot of times it's more so, fill me in on your partner. What do you love about them? What attracted you initially? How do you describe them now? What do you appreciate that they bring to your relationship? What makes you smile when you think of them? Like these kinds of questions about that person. And same thing on the relationship — what do you love doing together? What are you proud of in your relationship? How do you describe it? There are so many different prompting questions that can get you some really good stuff. And that tends to be the really emotional and touching part, because you're helping to represent who they are together in front of their community.
So if you're like, hey, I'm not sure — ask a couple that you're friends with and go, hey, can we do a practice? It's totally doable to do that.
SHAY: This might be a little bit personal to ask, so feel free if you want me to bypass it, but has being an officiant and being present for all of these ceremonies and digging into people's relationships impacted your marriage at all? Does it keep things romantic?
BETHEL: It's funny, and I think it also does the opposite too, where how I feel about marriage is because of my own. And so I think that what you experience in your own relationship — it's not necessarily everything. Some of my favorite colleagues are divorced, and so you don't have to be in a happy marriage to do it. But I think that you are going to be building your own view on what marriage means. And that's why I know that my couples are ones who are egalitarian, who see themselves as partners and supporters. Part of it's because I don't know how to celebrate a relationship that kind of isn't that, because I just don't see it.
And the same reason why, whenever they'll ask, am I staying for their wedding? I always say, no, I'm gonna go have dinner with my husband. Because I can't celebrate your marriage if I don't also enjoy my own. If I stayed for all my couples — I adore them, because I really try hard not to say yes to couples that I don't adore, that's the mutual fit thing — I wouldn't see him enough and that's not worth it to me. So I'd rather go home. I said, I'm not gonna run as soon as we're done, but I'm gonna leave when you know you have other things to do. You're gonna have more pictures, you're gonna be going into cocktail hour. But you just need to make sure that you still focus on you.
I've had couples get insulted that I'm not staying, and to be able to honestly say I don't stay at any of them because I want you to enjoy yourselves and not worry about me.
SHAY: Yeah. That is always so uncomfortable when the — I do have a fair amount of couples that are constantly checking on the band to make sure we're taken care of. And I'm like, please leave. Just, you have a coordinator —
BETHEL: Exactly.
SHAY: Enjoy —
BETHEL: Exactly. Don't worry about us.
SHAY: We were fed. It's fine. Wow. Okay, so have you encountered any renewals?
BETHEL: Yeah. Oh yeah. I definitely have and I've loved them. So I've sort of two variations. Obviously I have renewals from people who I'd never married to begin with who come to me for renewals, and they're super sweet. I've had certainly 10 and 15 and 25, and I've actually done I think now three 50th anniversary renewals, and I was hired by the kids. It was a surprise to their parents in each of those cases. And I did make sure I said to the kids, are you sure they wanna renew their vows? Because you're gonna be surprising them. One was just with their kids and grandkids. One was still with some close friends, not a huge crowd. But I'm like, you don't want that. They're gonna show up and go, kids, we were gonna talk to you, actually. So surprising other people has that risk there.
But the kids do the homework in that case for me. So they fill me in on the parents' relationship and what example they've been. And in each of those cases, we really focused the ceremony on yeah, their relationship, but also the family they built, and usually that's what they're most proud of at that point. These kids and these grandkids and what came from it. And usually those parents didn't have a choice about their wedding 50 years ago. Obviously it was just whatever they had to go through. So now they get something that is really about their relationship, and it's really touching.
But I've also started to get some of my own renewals — my own couples, that I get to celebrate a second time, which is so much fun. And usually that is super intimate. It is usually just them and the kids, or maybe parents, and it's not about the show anymore. It's really about taking stock of what we've built since and what we're really proud of and what we're excited about for this next chapter. So I have two different homework assignments — obviously for my own past couples, I don't need to ask the history. But I ask them to fill me in on the in-between and what this means to them now. And why are we doing this? And again, what are you so grateful for in your partner, in your relationship? And sometimes we include kids when there are children.
So yeah, it's been really fun. I actually had a lot of fun doing two different 10th renewals of my own past couples this year. One were two men who came back in from Dallas with their three adorable kids. Oh my gosh. And then one was a local couple and their son. It's just really fun to get to do that.
SHAY: Oh, that's gotta be so — where are they now? That's so —
BETHEL: Exactly. And I keep in touch usually on social media anyway. And I also send my couples their vows on their first anniversary, to remind them what they promised.
SHAY: Oh.
BETHEL: And it's a great way to keep in touch and see where life is taking them.
SHAY: Wow. That is so sweet. So when you do the renewals for ceremonies that you have done previously, are you ever pulling from that original one to sprinkle in some reminders?
BETHEL: Yeah. Sometimes they'll be like, oh, hey, we used this reading at your first wedding and it still speaks to you. And sometimes I ask too, do we want to use any of their original vows in this as well? Because sometimes I'll say, hey, 10 years ago here's what you promised. Now let's talk about what you're promising for this next chapter. So yeah, it's a lot of fun to go back to that, reread it, and what was their story and what mattered to them at the time. And then we say, okay, now what matters to you too. It's fun.
SHAY: Can I just tell you, I am as single as single gets, and you are now my single biggest motivation as to why I want to find a partner so I can hire you to be my officiant. That would be —
BETHEL: I would love it. Come on out. And I travel. I didn't meet my person till I was just shy of 35 and he was 36. I had to go through all of that to find my person. All those people I dated along the way, I learned what characteristics I didn't want, what I did want, all those things. You have to kind of go through it. But a lot of my couples are older, whether it's a first marriage or even a second. There's a level of gratitude, because you know how lucky you are because it took you longer to find your person. Or again, it's a second marriage and they know what they have now, and there's just a different level of gratitude, and that's a lot of fun too.
SHAY: Absolutely. Now my last question, I gotta ask you — being that you are in this marriage and that you get to witness the starts of everyone else's marriage, is there a secret or a piece of advice that you have for people that makes this love everlasting and makes a marriage last?
BETHEL: That's a great question. I say that I've learned that my couples over the years share three key things.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[SHAY interjects: Just kidding. Just kidding. Go ahead, Bethel. What are those three things?]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
BETHEL: The first is they really like and enjoy each other. They like doing stuff together. The amount of times they'll say that grocery shopping is fun — doesn't matter what we're doing, we enjoy being together. So that's the first. The second is they're each other's supporters and cheerleaders. They want to cheer each other on as life goes. They wanna see each other's dreams be fulfilled, and they really are equal supporters. And the third is they're just super grateful they found each other. They know this world is big and hard, and to have been able to find that person — they know how lucky they are.
And so I think continuing to enjoy each other, to continue to have fun together no matter what it is, to continue to wanna cheer each other on and support each other, and constantly feel how lucky you are to have found each other — and with that, always keep laughing. Laughing at what life brings is how you get through it. The laughing at is just as important as the laughing with.
Remember, it's the two of you against the world. And even when you have children, the two of you still have to be the priority for each other, because that solid marriage is the basis of that family. And you're also giving an example to your kids of what marriage should look like. So be aware of that too.
That's my advice on how to make it last.
SHAY: Thank you so much. This has been such a joy to talk to you. I am so serious. I really need to — if you're out there and you're hearing this and you're looking for a partner, I'm your girl. I'm gonna be sure to put your information in the show notes so that anybody that wants to get in touch can reach out. But thank you so much for your time.
BETHEL: No, it's absolutely my pleasure. Being able to celebrate really amazing relationships is just as meaningful to me whether it's to be able to do an elopement with just the couple — sometimes they'll ask a couple people to be there, but a lot of times it's just me and the couple and a photographer, and they then don't have to focus on linen colors and did grandma wear the right color dress, and who's giving me a hard time.
One of my longtime friends was like, wait, but isn't an elopement a planned thing? And I'm like, yeah, it's not just running away to escape. He's called it a drama-free deluxe. And I said, that's perfect. That's what it really is. So yeah, I do sweet elopements on the beach or on the cliffs or in a park under a tree or whatever. But then I also do the bigger weddings too.
It really should be you. Again, don't let other people pressure you to have a wedding that's not what you want. You may give in on a couple things to satisfy somebody, and that's fine. But don't give in when it's something that matters to you, because ultimately it's the two of you, and it has to be what fits the two of you and what you're excited and happy about. Because that's the person you're side by side with for the rest of these years.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
ANNOUNCER: If you are listening to this podcast, you probably care about science, bodily autonomy, and treating people with empathy. You probably believe you can live a good, meaningful life without religion. The good news is you're not alone.
How to Humanist is a program of the American Humanist Association, a nonprofit that defends the separation of church and state, protects freedom of belief, and advocates for policies grounded in reason and human dignity. We show up in the courtroom to protect the separation of church and state. We advocate in workplaces and schools to defend our freedom of belief. We work on Capitol Hill to shape the kind of country our kids inherit, and we build a community of people who share your values. But it only happens with your support.
If this podcast resonates with you, take the next step. Go to americanhumanist.org/join to learn more about our work and to become a member. Whether it's $5 or $50, you'll help fund the legal fights, the advocacy, and the community that makes a more humanist world possible. Join us at americanhumanist.org/join.