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This is a show for burnt-out fashion designers (and TDs, PDs, patternmakers and beyond) who want more flexibility while still doing work they love. As a freelance fashion designer, you can build your fashion career on your own terms. Freelancing in fashion is the only way to get freedom in your day (instead of being tied to a desk). Whether you want to earn extra money on the side, fund your fashion brand, or replace your salary, the FDGP podcast will help you get there. Listen in for actionable tips and strategies to kickstart or grow your career as a freelance fashion designer, build your confidence, and create the life you want. Hosted by $100k+ fashion freelancer Sew Heidi, the show features interviews and strategy sessions with successful freelance fashion designers from around the world who've ditched toxic fashion jobs and taken control of their own destinies. This is the only place to get REAL insights from REAL freelancers who have built REAL careers on their own terms. (Formerly the Successful Fashion Freelancer podcast.)
Heidi [00:00:00]:
Have you ever had a client react with, that's a little high on your prices? If you are charging what you deserve, you likely have experienced these kinds of reactions. But there are subtle things you can do to get clients on board to pay your premium rates. Alison Pickthorn is a student in my hands on coaching program, Fast Track Turbo, and she just landed a $15,000 client. In our conversation, she shares how she snagged this opportunity from a LinkedIn post that was a week old that already had a ton of comments on it, how she presented and pitched her services and proposal, and how she showed up professionally. So they were super impressed and ultimately picked her for the gig. You're going to love this episode. Let's get to it. You just landed a huge project, and I wanna hear all about it.
Heidi [00:00:48]:
I mean, I I know a lot about it. But I I wanna walk through a couple things. So so first, actually, to give a little context, can you talk to everybody about where you were prior to this in your freelance business and your career?
Alison Pickthorn [00:01:05]:
Yeah. So prior to deciding to go freelance, I have extensive history in, apparel design. My I've just oh, 22 years probably I've worked in the industry. All of it corporate design and, all of it in kids and baby, and then also license, which is I think pretty rare. So I've worked for bigger companies like Gap, Old Navy, Amazon, kind of worked my way up through to, like, director, senior director level, and with my last role, there was I I was part of layoffs, but it was a blessing in disguise. I I I was also so burnt out and so beyond over it all, that it was needed. So, yeah, that's what I was doing before. And then once I got to the late got laid off, I thought I just need a couple months to refresh, and then I'll get back into job search mode and get my next corporate design job.
Alison Pickthorn [00:02:11]:
And, like, 8 months later, I'm like, why does it give me hives to even try to apply for jobs? And I finally came to the realization that I just couldn't do it anymore. I just did not wanna work in a corporate environment again. So I thought that I would mean I'd have to just completely change gears. I was like, should I be a floral designer? Should I just start, you know, become a office, you know, assistant or something? But I finally decided that I was gonna try freelance. So that's where I started.
Heidi [00:02:46]:
What I mean, that's pretty extreme to go from, like, working in corporate for 22 years, then thinking, like, oh, I'm gonna be an office admin or a florist. And then getting back to freelance, like, where would why was freelance not the first thing that you thought of?
Alison Pickthorn [00:03:02]:
I've never I've never thought I would be doing freelance, and I've worked with so many freelancers over my career. I have worked with some amazing designers and graphic designers, tech designers through freelance. I just have always craved stability in connection with my designs. So the idea of going from gig to gig terrified me. It also, I would say in I don't know. Everyone has this perception, but for me, having been in the, you know, in my corporate role for so long, it was kinda like, it just doesn't seem like someone who has a load of experience behind them is going to be choosing the freelance. It almost seemed like that's something that someone has to end up in than choosing to do freelance. And that's that was kind of my perception.
Alison Pickthorn [00:04:02]:
I think over the years. And so I just yeah. The idea of hustling and trying to find a job after a job just sounded terrifying to me. So, yeah, my first thought wasn't like, okay, I'll become a freelancer. It was like, I'll have to just completely find new new career path. And I actually hired a job coach, and I spent time working at it. And what I kept coming back to was I was pissed when I thought about I'd have to kind of throw away all my experience to start something new. Like, I I like the industry.
Alison Pickthorn [00:04:36]:
I like what I was doing. I love working on kids and baby clothes. And I try to find ways that I could pivot. I ways I could change it into another job or another industry. But what I just kept coming back to is, like, why can't I do what I love without all the BS behind it, without all of the politics and the red tape that comes with it. And that's what burned me out was not the work itself. It was everything that comes with being in a big company. Yeah.
Alison Pickthorn [00:05:13]:
So that's that's when I just finally honestly, Heidi, I I had found you several years ago, I think, looking up just googling something something about, like, contracts or or, you know, rates or something. I think it was maybe looking up freelancer rates for someone I was hiring. That's how I came across you. And I was like, this is really interesting. And so I always kind of kinda kept tabs on you. And then I got an email right around the time where I'm just, like, I don't even know what to do anymore. And that's when I just was, like, when I had the thought of, wait, freelance, I could continue to do what I like. I don't have to throw it all away.
Alison Pickthorn [00:05:53]:
And maybe, just maybe, I could make something of this. Like, it was, like, a huge weight was left out of my shoulders. And that's when I decided just, like, okay. Try it. Jump in. See what happens.
Heidi [00:06:06]:
Yeah. Here we are. And so you you jumped into turbo, to work hands on with me in, like, May, late April, early May. It is March.
Alison Pickthorn [00:06:20]:
It is,
Heidi [00:06:20]:
like Was it March? Oh.
Alison Pickthorn [00:06:21]:
Late April for April. It was April. Yeah.
Heidi [00:06:23]:
Within and and right now, it's the middle it's almost end of July, July 22nd, for people listening for context. So, you jumped in, we're working on a bunch of stuff with like your niche and your offer, kind of figuring out the foundation. And then you're like, you messaged me and you're like, Heidi, I got a really great opportunity. I need help. So I'd love to, have you talk us through the whole story of, like, where you found this opportunity, and then we can go through, like, each of the stages that we kinda work through together and and how you ultimately landed the gig for I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but for a rate that I feel at the very beginning, you did not think you were going to get. You didn't feel like you you kind of said to me, I'd like to get this, but I don't I don't I mean, I don't expect to get that. Right. Right.
Heidi [00:07:07]:
And then we we built out you a pretty good rate, and, I I won't put words in your mouth about how you feel about where you landed, but can you talk first about, like, where you found it and and that whole process at the very beginning?
Alison Pickthorn [00:07:20]:
Yeah. So I've got it through LinkedIn, through a post on LinkedIn. I'll say, you know, I think most people who have a normal corporate 9 to 5 job, aren't as active on LinkedIn as as a lot of people. And I was, like, I had my profile on there, and that's all I needed. I I would jump on and it would give me that would give me hives. I just was like, it was especially deciding going to freelance. So starting working with Heidi, because I have such a long history, I had a lot of contacts. And so that's how I started kind of getting back into LinkedIn, getting more comfortable with it, just starting look at, like, reaching out to other coworkers, things like that.
Alison Pickthorn [00:08:03]:
And so it started becoming part of, like, my regular daily process of just go on, connect with people either I know or find, you know, interesting things. And from adding new contacts, adding people I thought were interesting, adding other freelancers or people I know from the community, you know, your your feed just gets more, tailored to what you're looking at and, there was just a post that came across on my feed. I don't even know who how it was connected, but, it was someone that posted looking for, freelance kids and kids and baby designer with commercial experience, for a project, that could possibly lead to more, and needed to have experience with, like, color and design and and mood boards. Yeah. And that was that was kind of all that was really said. And the person who had posted it said, it's not for me. It's for another company that I'm working with. So, yeah, I found that I was like, well, that sounds right up my alley.
Alison Pickthorn [00:09:15]:
But it was posted, like, over a week, ago. And you see all the posts with the people that are like, oh, comment. You know, like like, that's me. DM me or I'm gonna send you my portfolio and just a whole list of people. And I will say I told Heidi this when I started to decide to do a freelance. There are a whole lot of kids and baby designers out there. A ton. I mean, you think you think, like, maybe it would just be a little more smaller niche.
Alison Pickthorn [00:09:45]:
Now there's a ton of them. And so I was like yeah. I just I just didn't know what my chances are. So I but I decided to reach out. Why not? It was, like, pretty much a great fit. And so, I reached out to the contact to send an email saying and I made note of that. I just said, hey. I might be a little, you know, too late here.
Alison Pickthorn [00:10:06]:
I know it's been you posted this a while ago, but, I'm really interested. It sounds like something that I could be a good fit for. I went back and reread it prior to this. And one thing that stuck out to me is that I I made note, not necessarily, like, I have a lot of experience, but made note of, like, if he's looking for commercial, there's a reason why he's saying commercial. So I made note of, like, I can do on trend current designs that will meet or exceed your target, your financial targets. So to me, that was something that I wouldn't normally, I think, have thought to write in there, but he made a point to say commercial, so I just wanted to kind of bring that to his attention. I mentioned just the companies I had worked at, and, I think I put my I have a online website portfolio, so I included that link. He said, hope to hear from you.
Alison Pickthorn [00:11:04]:
And he contacted me about a week later. And, yeah. So from there, he contacted me and said, hey. Sorry. It took me a while. Interested in chatting with you. We got on on a Zoom call, chatted. And from there, it just the more I learned about the opportunity, I'm like, oh my god.
Alison Pickthorn [00:11:24]:
This is this is what I thought would be my dream job if I were to do financing. And so he in in chatting, he said, well, maybe we could put together a project or, you know, something to just test things out. And that's when it came down to dollars, and that's where I've just always been very nervous given that, again, when based off of my experience and my history, what I think I'm worth, I'm just scared people are going to say that's way too much. I'm not gonna pay it. But I really am trying to stick to my guns in that. I'm really like, what is the point of me doing freelance if I can't live off of this and make this my full time job and get paid for what I think I'm worth? So I told him my hourly rate. I said, you know, I think this would probably be project based, but, this is my hourly rate. If you want to do just like a small trial project, we can do it on pay just for, like, like, a day's worth of work.
Alison Pickthorn [00:12:30]:
And he made it clear it was high, and he was like, oh, okay. Yeah. I will.
Heidi [00:12:36]:
Would you be willing to share what it was? My rate I
Alison Pickthorn [00:12:39]:
gave him was 125. K. An hour. And yes. So he he was like that. That's that's pretty the yeah. Okay. That's more.
Alison Pickthorn [00:12:50]:
But he's like and he noted, you know, but I I get that you have a lot more experience behind you. I have to talk to, you know, some people and and get approval if we were to to look at that. I said, great. So, yeah, I hung up thinking, like, this sounds so exciting, but I bet it's just not gonna go anywhere. And that's when I emailed Heidi, I think, was like, oh my god. Help me. How do I do this? Yeah.
Heidi [00:13:15]:
So we jumped on a call. So a couple of things I wanna point out. I I I don't want it to go unnoticed what you you made the comment about the commercial mention in the post itself. And I think this is really critical that, like, k. First of all, we see these posts on LinkedIn or a week old. It's like interested interested. DM me. Like, stop it, people.
Heidi [00:13:33]:
I know you guys aren't doing that. But, like, oh, it's so bad out there. And so not only did you send a really well thought out email even though the post was a week old and and you acknowledge that, which I think is also really valuable, but you got you're like, I'm telling you right here in this one sentence that I understand and I know what commercial means and I'm speaking the same language that you you're speaking and you need someone who has this expertise. So I think it's really important if you can, like, grab onto, like, little tiny clues. I mean, there's one word you picked up on and then think about like, okay, I understand this market. How can I thread that into my message, or pitch or whatever it is to show that I do understand that? And just having the the foresight to say there's a reason he put that in there that was important to him. So I don't want that to go unnoticed with with you guys and listeners. So, yeah, we hopped on a call and, I remember I mean, we wound up getting on, I think, a couple calls before you ultimately wind up closing the project.
Heidi [00:14:31]:
So I think this first one was, you were like, I told him my price and he immediately felt like it was high. What should I do? And you guys, with that point, we're talking about doing, like, a 5 hour trial project to that he was gonna pay you for, but just to make sure that you were the right fit. So do you remember, some of the stuff we talked about? Do you wanna share that and and sort of where your mindset was at that?
Alison Pickthorn [00:14:53]:
Yeah. We I mean, we talked about, the trial project we we had mentioned. I think you were very much, like, don't get scared off yet from the hourly. Don't backpedal from that. You know, see where it goes. But your recommendation was, if this is something you really wanna go for, put somebody together before you even hear back from him. Because I think this I think he and I had talked to him on a Friday, and he said, oh, I'll get back to you on Monday about a small project. And so Heidi said, I I if you're that interested, spend a couple of hours and just pull something together.
Alison Pickthorn [00:15:27]:
It doesn't have to be this elaborate big production. But if he's saying it's kids and baby, it's commercial, you know, in just some of the details he had given me, I understood kind of what type of line they were putting together. Heidi recommended like just just put the time in and send it to him. Be proactive about it. Which I was kinda leaning towards anyway. And then I was like, yeah. That actually makes a lot of sense. And so I put together, I think it was, like, 4 page or 5 page kind of, like, I was calling a lookbook.
Alison Pickthorn [00:16:03]:
It was super simple, and it was, like, here is a small page of, current trends of just, like, imagery. Here's a small page of, current details that are trending, and then I think just a oh, and then for, prints and patterns. Yeah. I just I just
Heidi [00:16:26]:
pulled it up real quick. Yeah. So the cover is, like, just says mini directional lookbook, and then you typed out, like, 2 paragraphs and a couple bullets on, like, how this is relevant, and and how you kinda heard what they had to say, and how you were presenting the project. And you had mood and color, and it's just it's a small little mood board with some color swatches. And then you had pattern and details with, again, just a fuse inspiration pictures, and then your fabric and silhouette. You have 2 pages for fabric and silhouette to highlight a total of 3 different fabrics, and then obviously some silhouettes. It was quite simple. But it showed that you understood their customer.
Heidi [00:17:06]:
Yeah. I feel. Obviously, they felt so too because they did hire you. Spoiler alert, guys.
Alison Pickthorn [00:17:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. I I I spent I mean, I think probably I probably spent 4 hours just because I, you know, I I could've put it together into it's just, you know, wanted an extra detail in there. So I think it's been 4 hours total on it. Sent him an email just saying thanks for meeting with me. I'm still super interested. That just his kind of description of the project really got me thinking and got my mind working, and I wanted to get some of my ideas down in front of him. And one thing that Heidi and I talked about is like how to how to say it without being, like, so don't I'm not gonna do a project for you, which was not the intention of it.
Alison Pickthorn [00:17:57]:
So it just wording it as, like, hey. This is not to replace a project. If you want me to, you know, do a project, but just some just wanted to get some ideas in front of you, and sent that off. So that I think he sent that on Friday night, maybe, or Saturday to him. And then by Monday, he had texted he had replied to me on LinkedIn. One of the things about, the the man I'm working with is which I really appreciate is he just he is so appreciative how professional I've showed up to him and how proactive I've been. And I think it's rare to get someone who's so vocal about it, but I think most anyone so, you know, it's it's nice to get that feedback straight off, but I think it just shows what anyone in his position would feel of just the professionalism. He was when he wrote back, he's like, thank you so much.
Alison Pickthorn [00:18:55]:
You're so professional. Thank you for being so proactive about this. I'm so excited that you're so excited about the project. So I think that really came through to him, and then he said, let's get on a call. And he's, like, I'd like to get on a call with you and with my, partners in India, and just kind of chat and see if, you know, talk about what what the this bigger picture of the project is. So yeah. So then from there, it went really fast.
Heidi [00:19:24]:
Yeah. Okay. Before we get to, like, more of the nuances of actually quoting the project, because you and I worked pretty closely on putting the we put together 3 tiers for the proposal and stuff. But, would you be willing to share the structure of the project? Because it's it's a little different than, like, working directly with a brand. Are you comfortable with that?
Alison Pickthorn [00:19:41]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. What yeah. The the work the actual work that I'm doing.
Heidi [00:19:45]:
Well, just like how the like, you're not just designing a collection for a brand per se. Right. Right. The structure of the the relationship the client, who they are, and how this is all working. Because it's it's a unique arrangement, but I think there's an interesting opportunity here for people to think about.
Alison Pickthorn [00:20:01]:
Absolutely. In talking so the, person who had reached out to me, he is actually not the not the brand, not the owner, not the the, vendor. He is head of a consultant working with a vendor out of India, and this vendor has a strong relationship with different brands. They are they've been in business for 20, 30, 30 plus years. And what they're seeing is in this industry is changing and that a lot of brands are now asking vendors to come to them with designs and with product, which I totally understood because I saw that in in my career is just we would start asking vendors to not just create our designs, but be like, okay, what do you have new? Or we would just give them a couple of samples and say something like this based off of this. Give us, like, 20 different options. So there's a lot of pressure being put on vendors just to for companies saving money. They don't want to invest in a huge design team.
Alison Pickthorn [00:21:12]:
I think they're kind of starting to lean more into merchandising than design. And so it's a way for companies to kinda I don't know, cheap out on actually having to hire a whole team and put all of the pressure onto the vendors, which for some vendors is great. I've worked with vendors who have design teams on their end, and, you know, you can get some fabulous stuff. With the vendor who I'm working with, they don't have a design team. They have not ventured into that. They are super strong in what they do, but they realize they're gonna need some help if they wanna show up and continue to be a viable partner. So their consultant has been working with them and has told them, if you wanna show up in a strong way, you need to bring a designer on board to kind of help you create these collections. I don't know if you work with if you work with some of these vendors who come with samples that don't have US based or Europe based designers, there's some wackadoo stuff you get.
Alison Pickthorn [00:22:13]:
It's just they they, especially in the kids and baby markets, very different in, different countries. And so if you want to have, if you're if they're presenting to a North America based customer, they it's they benefit from North America based designer. So that's kind of the relationship of hired by the consultant who I'm working closely with him, but he pretty much partnered me with the vendor. And I've been working with both of them, kind of he he's kind of project managing, and I'm working with the vendor on the designs and, yeah, all of the kind of background of the collection. The one thing that is a total odd weird coincidence is that they specifically hired me because they are gonna be showing to a company, soon. And then they're hoping if this goes well that we, you know, can continue on to other projects. But they said the name of this company, and they're like, I don't know if you've heard this brand, blah blah. And it's a brand that's, like, pretty much in my backyard.
Alison Pickthorn [00:23:23]:
I know it very well. I've interviewed with them several times. I know 3 or 4 people that work there. It just happened to be that this consultant from London is working with a vendor in India who is looking for a designer for a brand that I know extremely well and is pretty much, like, right right near me. So that piece of it, I think, was very very odd, but a good coincidence.
Heidi [00:23:50]:
Okay. Awesome. Thank you for sharing about that. Because I think it's a really I think when people think about freelancing, they think the very typical route of, like, you go to direct to the brand and you work with the brand. And there's all sorts of different models and structures to do. So in this case, the factory is actually your client. And what I actually really love too about your story is that, because and I've heard this from from people before, and and every scenario is different. But I've heard people are like, oh, this factory in China wants me to, like, design this collection or something.
Heidi [00:24:19]:
But the immediate thought from the freelancer is like, well, they can't pay me the wages that I need to make because they're in China or they're in India or something. And going into it, I know you and I talked about it a little bit, and I was, like, I don't know. Like, I don't I don't know what the business model for a factory in India actually looks like. I don't know what their margins are, how much money they're actually making. If they can afford to invest, you know, tens of 1,000 of dollars. But at the end of the day, we were like, well, you need to get what you deserve and what you wanna get. But it's it's interesting and fascinating to me that, like, you the client is this essentially, who's paying the bill is this factory in India, and they're affording a very comfortable, a very healthy US based rate for this project. Right.
Heidi [00:25:05]:
So I think we're we're very quick to jump to conclusions about who can or can't afford our services, and that's not always the case. Mhmm. So let's talk a little bit about so, you did the trial or the you did the you took the initiative to be proactive. Yep. You very much was, like, we appreciate your professionalism, etcetera. And then I think you guys got on I can't even remember what happened after that.
Alison Pickthorn [00:25:32]:
So yeah. So he I got on a call that day. That was the Monday I got a response back on the project or the little mini project they sent him, and he was, like, thank you so much. Can are you do you happen to be free today for a call with India? I'm like, sure. So we got on a call, met with his partner, with the vendor, and we talked through everything that they were looking for. And then from there, it was he well, let's see. So at that point, it was clear that he he was fine with me not doing a project. So that was the other benefit of, like, me being proactive was me sending that he already got a flavor of what my design style is, what I can offer.
Alison Pickthorn [00:26:18]:
He didn't really see the need to, put a project together for him, which was great. That's work for me. So from there, it was really just came down to pricing. So we talked through everything at the end of the call. He said, okay. You know, I'd love to know, what you're thinking. Like, for for pricing, if you could put together something, just your thoughts on it, then we can meet and review. I asked him, what's his budget? And he said, well, whatever it needs to be.
Alison Pickthorn [00:26:53]:
So that wasn't really helpful. So I went in very blind, not knowing at all what they were looking to pay. It probably would have been better if I if I had tried to get a little more information on on what their range to pay was, but they kinda have to close to their chest. So it yeah. He said, well, the only thing he said was we just I we need to be mindful of it. And, you know, it's a it's a tight budget. So, you know, making it clear that they wanna spend as little as possible. So
Heidi [00:27:26]:
At one point though, because I know you and I talked and I said, the last thing you want now they knew your rate was 1.25 an hour. So they at least had that as a baseline. They knew you're not it's not gonna come in at, like, a $2,000 project, based on the caliber of what they needed. But I we had talked I I recall, and I said, I think when you're on a call, and I don't know if it was that call or a different call, it's worth saying it it might be in the range of this. Before you spend all the time to put together this laborious proposal, and then you're, like, way, like, completely on a different page. And so didn't at some point you just drop a range to them? Am I making that up? I know we talked about it.
Alison Pickthorn [00:28:10]:
I know we talked about it, but I think at that point, no. I didn't I didn't I didn't I didn't do that. We made you better recommended it, but I didn't think you're advised.
Heidi [00:28:21]:
So Okay. That's okay. That's okay. I can't remember the order of operations because it did all happen quite quickly. And then he was like less than 2 weeks from
Alison Pickthorn [00:28:28]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Heidi [00:28:30]:
Okay. So then you were like, okay. God put a proposal together. And I remember you sent me a message and you were like, da da da da da. Here's everything they need, kind of outlining the scope, and here's everything they want me to do. And then you're like, I mean, I think it's worth can I quote it? Yeah. I think it's worth 20,000, but there's no way I expect to get paid 20,000. Right.
Heidi [00:28:54]:
Right. And I wrote back and I was like, I'm but why?
Alison Pickthorn [00:28:59]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Heidi [00:29:00]:
So can you talk a little bit through then, like, some of the stuff, like, where we kind of ended after that, and we talked through different, like, how we decided to structure the packages and what you ultimately presented?
Alison Pickthorn [00:29:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. So I got to the the 20,000, original quote just looking at what they charge hourly, and they had a finite end, to the project when they'd be presenting it to the company. So it was about, I think, 8 weeks I had. I think it was 8 weeks from then to when it was needed to be done. So I was calculating the hours I had to work on it, how long it was hourly. That's how I came up with the 20,000 if I were just to be paid flat straight. That being said, I knew I would probably work more than those hours.
Alison Pickthorn [00:29:49]:
So, yeah. So I I just my gut was there. They balked at 125. He's been very kind about it, but there's no way if I'm gonna throw a big number at them that they will go for this, especially with them saying how budget conscious they are. So what I did was for me, it was really more for me. I sat down and just made a road map, like a flowchart, And I wrote down everything that I saw myself doing for this project because they didn't necessarily give me they didn't say, okay. You're gonna be doing, you know, 30 designs and, you know, 30 tech packs, and you'll be doing you know, they didn't lay it out for me. They just pretty much said, we wanna put together a collection that we're showing to this event to this company in August, and we need you to do the designs and color and trend for it and just kind of help create it.
Alison Pickthorn [00:30:43]:
So putting together the flow map really helped me wrap my head around of, like, how big this project would be and where what I could offer them and also, like, what I can't offer them. They were saying things, you know, talking about wanting prints and artwork. I'm like, I am not a graphic designer. So, like, that's off the table. You don't want me drawing things for you. Believe me. So that was, like, a portion I knew that, okay, they might need to budget for that to if they want prints and graphics, they might need to hire someone to do that. And I can help them find, you know, get them someone, but I it was a place where I could make some clear notes of, like, don't expect this from me.
Alison Pickthorn [00:31:23]:
Another piece of it was in the way that I was planning on working. I was actually not going to be I was not going to be sketching everything fully. So I, you know, I just laid out expectations of like what they should, what they expect to get from me, what they wouldn't get from me, and had a whole and a flowchart. And I think that's when I met with Heidi of like, okay, here's my flowchart of everything that would be involved in this project. I if I'm just gonna calculate, this is $20,000. What do I do? How do I get this done to go with that? So that's how Heidi and I talked to you about, like, tier pricing. And I think we talked to I mean, you have a lot of you probably go through the your recommendations on either looking at it by do I do an initial, you know, first time project price and reduce my rates? Do I do tier pricing? So, yeah, we talked just kind of about
Heidi [00:32:28]:
Yeah. We went, yeah, we went through a couple different options. We talked about, offering them, you know, more flexible payment terms. Uh-huh. We talked about just reducing the scope of the deliverables, which ultimately kind of panned out into the tier pricing. I'm trying to think
Alison Pickthorn [00:32:46]:
And then just and then I think one was just reducing my rate. I mean, it is early on for me. It was gonna be trying to weigh that this was a project one that I was super interested in, that there was opportunity possibly for continued work with them. They had said that they wanted to find a designer that they could work with beyond just this project, so there was that. And, also, just kind of like the one of the first projects is I'm trying to set out on my freelance career. Is it worth it to me to reduce my rates for this to get it under my belt, have a learning experience, and then say, okay. We've worked together now, you know, going forward. This is my increased rate.
Alison Pickthorn [00:33:30]:
So I think that's what we talked a lot about. And when I really thought about it, I just didn't wanna do that. It's just it's a it's a longer term project, and and I think it could have gone either way, but I I decided my my time is my time, and I would rather reduce the, deliverables than reduce my rate for the work that I'm doing. Because I know myself, and I know I'm going to go above and beyond. I'm not someone who's like I said 10 hours, so you're only getting 10 hour. I know I'm gonna do the 12 hours over the 10 or whatever it takes to get over the line. And, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that at a reduced rate and in which turn I would be happy. So that's where we landed on.
Alison Pickthorn [00:34:15]:
Okay. Full price, but but, look at deliverable options. And, we didn't I think, Heidi, you said, think about it. Put it in your back pocket. Think about, like, what would it look like? What would be, kind of a a price? Or what what would it look like if you were to choose not to do things? What are the things that you could say, these, I won't give as much value to? You know, you can find someone to do this, but these are the pieces that, like, you're hiring me for, and I can give you the most value. So I didn't go into it with that framework, like, written out, but it was something I definitely had thought, like, okay. This could be if he's, like, 20,000, that's not gonna happen. That this don't you? Yeah.
Alison Pickthorn [00:35:02]:
So then yeah. Go ahead.
Heidi [00:35:04]:
Oh, I was just gonna say if you wanna kinda talk through, like, you have the whole package for 20,000, which from a high level, you can maybe talk through what that included. And then like you said, we are very strategic intentional of, like, what do they need you most for and what things perhaps could they handle on their side? So you wanna kinda walk through high level what the tiers are that we came up with and then the if if you're comfortable attaching the price points to those. Yeah. So, first tier was kind of anything they need all and everything.
Alison Pickthorn [00:35:35]:
They were starting from, you know, beginning. So it was, creating trend boards, of all relevant current silhouette trends, fabric trends. They really wanted me to be sourcing fabric for them, sourcing new, knit ideas. So that was gonna involve me, shopping the market, sending samples back and forth. So there's that work of, like, a market shop. There was just doing all the trending to create the color boards, the mood boards, silhouette design boards, and then present all of that once that's approved, to then start putting together a line plan for them. They didn't even, you know, have a line plan, so I'd have to put together what are all the pieces, how many pieces that we're doing, how many different fabric ways or cut, you know, color ways, so the whole line plan. Art while I don't create artwork Part of that was that I would source a graphic designer for them To and I would give our directions so I'd tell them, you know what I want the print to be what the artwork should be, but that they would need to pay for a separate graphic designer Sketches or at least and this is where they were expecting everything sketched up.
Alison Pickthorn [00:37:02]:
I was like, I can't do all of that, and I don't need to. It's how I've learned how to work is that I can just work more off of the imagery. And, so they that was something that was new to them. They were like, I've never I don't know about that, but I trust you can do it. So that was a nice that they kind of, like, let me lean into me on that. That they weren't gonna get these perfect tech packs of perfect sketches for everything. So, yes, sketches, again and I didn't even promise them tech pack. I just said I will I will walk through with the teams on on all of the the details on things.
Alison Pickthorn [00:37:42]:
And then lastly, I think the end was, they have this presentation they're doing, and so they didn't know exactly how they wanted to present. So I said that I would work on creating a presentation lookbook, for their meeting, create boards as they need, kind of build a presentation for them. So that was the kind of whole package of 20,000. And so I think I presented that first to well, before before that, that was I was going to send that to Ben, the to the the consultant. But, Heidi, you had said, like, so how are you gonna package this? Like, how are you gonna present it? And I just had my one flowchart. I was like, just the flowchart. I don't know. That's when Heidi is like, you I'm gonna send you something, like, how I put proposals together.
Alison Pickthorn [00:38:36]:
And that was huge for me. Like, that was so helpful, because I really didn't think about framing. Like, he asked me for a price and I put it together and here you go. But that made to me such a difference on just like kind of putting a bow on everything. I think it continued the perception of me being professional, like putting together a whole package, putting in details just about, like, kind of a reminder of, like, here are my skills. Here's what, you know, they're getting working with me. Here's what the deliverables would be would include all of that. And so that's what I reviewed with the consultant.
Alison Pickthorn [00:39:18]:
I didn't put price on it. I just put everything that they would get so that there's nothing in writing for pricing, and he was all on board, and this sounds great. And at the end of it, he said, okay. So how much?
Heidi [00:39:33]:
And you presented this on a Zoom call
Alison Pickthorn [00:39:36]:
Yes.
Heidi [00:39:36]:
To walk through the proposal, but left the pricing off. Right. Okay. This is what I was remembering when you said the numbers. Okay. Yes. Yeah.
Alison Pickthorn [00:39:44]:
So, I had took Heidi's advice, which was say the number and stop talking. Don't say a word until they talk, which is very hard to do. I'm sure you can imagine. Or you just wanna start backpedaling and be like, oh, I mean, we could talk about it. But I definitely just kept quiet and that is, you know, for all of this. It will cost $20,000. And he took a deep breath, and he's like, okay. Okay.
Alison Pickthorn [00:40:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have to talk to some people about that. And, again, he's so nice and humble. He is, like, you know, I get that it he's he was very clear on I understand that is what you're worth. He's like, I understand you come with a lot of experience, and you're way more senior than what we originally were looking at, to hire. So he's like, I totally understand it, but it's I'm gonna have to explain and do, you know, figure this out with my partners.
Alison Pickthorn [00:40:55]:
So he before I actually I was able to offer, he said, could we look at, like, what it would cost for you maybe not to do all of the things you said? And that's when I said, absolutely. Let me take that away. I can do kind of a tier pricing of, like, you know, what the next tier would look like if I were to take some of these away. And then what the next tier would be would be just focusing on the design work and then kind of tech pack sketching, all that stuff could be done by another team. It's, like, great. And what I liked is that I gave myself the the space to say, let me send that back to you. Like, not to, like, pick and choose right there. So I told him I'd get by the next day, I would send him a new, kind of tier pricing for it.
Alison Pickthorn [00:41:42]:
And, so yeah. So then to go into the different tiers. So the next day, I I put together so there was the main tier is 20,000. 2nd tier was 15,000, which in that, I took off sourcing fabric and market shopping, saying that we really didn't even have time for samples at that point, so it would be reducing. I wouldn't have to be going at the stores. I could do most of my trending online. I wouldn't have to be purchasing samples, cutting, going back and forth there. I took off the whole presentation part of it and said, you're in charge of that.
Alison Pickthorn [00:42:24]:
I will give you my boards, and you figure out how you wanna put all of that together. I think there was one other thing. I think artwork was the other thing as far as art directing. Like, you guys figure out what prints you wanna put on this stuff. It I can help give you some direction if you're in colorways and stuff, but you guys have your you I'm sure you have artwork in house. You pick, and we'll go from there. So that was the 15,000 tier. And then the tier under that, was it 75100, I think? I think it
Heidi [00:42:58]:
was 99,000. It was
Alison Pickthorn [00:43:00]:
99. Right? So 9 was just trending color boards, mood boards, silhouette direction, and consulting on the line plan. So not putting together a full line plan, but being available to, kind of help them figure out how to put the pieces together. So that was 9,000. And so I took the original flow sheet that I had, and I just made it, kind of 3 versions, and I just showed this is flow for tier 1, tier 2, tier 3. Yeah. And I sent it to to them the next day, and he wrote back, thank you. You know, let me review this.
Alison Pickthorn [00:43:54]:
And then I think I think, again, it was just a couple days later, he messaged me and said, let's get on a call. And he's, like, just a heads up, just so you know, we're gonna go with tier 2, and, yeah, we're ready to start working. So
Heidi [00:44:08]:
Yeah. For 15,000. I love too how I feel that you took a lot out of the package, but only lowered the price 5,000. Mhmm. Like, you're like, I'm still holding on to the the core value that I deliver here is giving you the design direction and the aesthetic that is needed here in the US market compared to, you know, maybe the aesthetic from a designer in India or somewhere overseas. There's just different aesthetic. And, that was the core value that you're like, this is really what they need for me. They can do the fabric stuff on their own.
Heidi [00:44:48]:
Right? They I felt that's something you and I talked about. But you still reduced it by quite a bit, but only dropped the price down 5,000. So I actually, I think in a way, you you probably got the best of both worlds here.
Alison Pickthorn [00:45:01]:
I I think so. I
Heidi [00:45:03]:
for the workload. Bang for your
Alison Pickthorn [00:45:05]:
buck. Yes. And now that we're I've been it's been about a month now since I've been working on, which is insane. I just wrote him the other day, and I was like, you do realize, like, from the time that you first talked to me to now, it's only been a month. And we've got so much work during that time. But, it's I I look at what I had how I have been working, what I've done, and I am so glad I didn't offer a reduced rate. Because, again, like I said, I know myself, and I I was true to myself and doing above and beyond beyond, things. And, I think that's probably the next thing.
Alison Pickthorn [00:45:50]:
Well, I personally talk with Heidi about is just like that doing what you need to for a client above and beyond and making sure that they really value and appreciate you, especially if, you know, there's hope for more work beyond that, but also feeling like you're getting paid for it. And so I think that's the piece that is, you know, just to refine as I move forward because I again, it truly is work. It's, like, meant for me, this work that I'm doing. And so I just love doing it. So I just I don't care that I'm sitting there for a couple more hours, and I was planning on working on it because it's, you know, important to me too. But, but I was talking to a friend of mine who's also a freelancer, and she was like, yeah. You you need to learn that, like, you need to get paid for this. And especially, she's, like but me having been in corporate, you know, you do everything you can to make the managers happy, the directors happy, the VP is happy, and at the same time to try to keep your job.
Alison Pickthorn [00:46:56]:
Right? Like, there's always gonna be more and more asks of you. And so she said, it's just so different now because you're you don't have to prove it to anyone. They've agreed to what to pay you, and that's what you do. Like, that's amazing. That's I just feel I didn't even know how to comprehend that, that it doesn't mean that and this and this and this. So
Heidi [00:47:19]:
Yeah.
Alison Pickthorn [00:47:19]:
Learning through that.
Heidi [00:47:21]:
Yeah. I wanna I wanna emphasize a little bit on, like, how we had talked about offering a reduced rate. And I remember that was something we talked about very specifically. I said, listen. There's a chance that at the $20,000 price, you don't get the gig based off of price alone. So that is a chance that you, the freelancer, need whoever the freelancer is, you, the CEO of your freelance business, like, me to make a decision. I would like to hold to my price, and even if I lose it, I'm okay with that. Or I want this so badly because for whatever long list of reasons, that I am willing to lower the price.
Heidi [00:48:00]:
And that is a choice, you know, I I always think people should hold to their prices. But you go into that knowing because you had already gotten some reaction from him that you were on the higher end of the side higher end side of things and, you know, they had originally wanted to hire a junior and you're definitely a senior position. And and so you go you have to go into these things knowing, like, I'm gonna hold to my price and there's ways you can obviously leverage to get that price by the way you present yourself, by the way you present your proposal, how you talk about things, how you how you just show up. But that's a risk and and and but that was a risk that you said, I'm willing to take it. I wanna hold the price. And I'm really so glad that you did as well. And Yeah. And you're very much deserving of what they're paying you for this project.
Heidi [00:48:47]:
I think it's a win win for both of you guys. I know you've said it's been a dream client. It's been so much fun. You're like, this is the work I was meant to do. You have freedom, and you're, like, getting to call the design shots and all this stuff. Yeah. Absolutely.
Alison Pickthorn [00:49:00]:
It's That, I think, has been the scariest part of just, like, I think a lot of freelancers, too, that I've worked with over the years are more junior, you know? And so you are paying junior prices and the idea that is there someone out there that is willing to pay, you know, prices that I think, at my experience, have earned, and they do exist. And he said he has told me that they were looking for someone more junior. He's working on other projects and has hired other designers that are more junior. So if I had just thought, you know, he's wanting it. It's a sousen designer or something that, you know, it's not the right one for me. I would have missed out because he saw the value in what I had to offer and how I presented it to him. So they made sure to make the room to bring me on, which is, you know, great.
Heidi [00:49:51]:
Well, congrats. I'm very excited for you. Super proud of you for this opportunity. Alright. Allison, we're gonna wrap it up here. I'm gonna ask you the question. Well, first of all, where can people connect with you and find you online? Outside of fast.
Alison Pickthorn [00:50:04]:
Yeah. Fast. LinkedIn, just Allison Pickthorn. Or if you wanted to check out my, online portfolios, allisonpickthorn.com.
Heidi [00:50:14]:
Awesome. And I'll ask you the question I ask everybody at the end, which is what is one thing people never ask you about being a freelance fashion designer that you wish they would?
Alison Pickthorn [00:50:26]:
I mean, I don't know if it's something you asked me about, but they just something I wish I had known was that it's it's not it's not a default career. And and I, you know, say that almost embarrassed now knowing how many people have built, like, such a you know, obviously, how many people are following you, Heidi, and and are making it, you know, their goal to do freelance. I think we're in a different era and a different time too of, like, people choosing themselves and their paths before thinking, you know, 9 to 5 is the only way to do it. And I think it's amazing and awesome. And I would just yeah. Took me a long time to get there, but I am glad I did for my my own sanity. So
Heidi [00:51:07]:
Awesome. Well, I love that answer, and I'm so glad you got there as well. Congratulations. It's very well deserved. You Thank you. Put in a lot of work and you're reaping the benefits. Thank you for coming on to share your story. Thanks, everyone.