#104: Chuck, Jeff, and Jamey Snider (Snider Recreation)

Chuck Snider, Jamey Snider, and Jeff Snider — the family behind Snider Recreation — on building & growing a recreational and commercial playground company, tying success to providing a fun safe environment for children to play, innovation in recreation, and how the industry has evolved over the last few decades!

Show Notes

Lay of The Land's conversation today is with the family behind Snider Recreation a company in the very business of fun where they are focused on the development of Commercial Playgrounds — Chuck Snider, Jamey Snider, and Jeff Snider! 

Jamey and Jeff took over the business in 2014 and today run the company, focused on growing Snider Recreation’s brand and presence in the playground and recreation industry, while Chuck had founded the business back in the late 80s after over a decade working in the legal sector.

If you’ve ever wondered, how does a playground come to be? Or what are all the considerations that go into making one that is fun and inclusive, and safe? That is what we’ll cover in this episode!

From how the recreational and commercial playground industry has evolved over the last few decades, to how Chuck, Jamey, and Jeff think about innovation, to how they’ve continued to run a family business over the generations — really loved learning about this business that fundamentally ties its success to providing a fun safe environment for children to play — please enjoy my conversation with the Snider family.

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Learn more about Snider Recreation
Follow Snider Recreation on Twitter
Connect with Jamey Snider on LinkedIn
Connect with Jeff Snider on LinkedIn

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Creators & Guests

Host

Jeffrey Stern

What is Lay of The Land?

Telling the stories of entrepreneurship and builders in Cleveland and throughout Northeast Ohio. Every Thursday, Jeffrey Stern helps map the Cleveland/NEO business ecosystem by talking to founders, investors, and community builders to learn what makes Cleveland/NEO special.

Jamie Snider [00:00:00]:
You kinda get through all the construction part of it, the nitty gritty part of getting the playground in the ground. But then you go to the grand opening where there's a ribbon cutting and everybody's happy, and they cut the ribbon. You see the the kids run onto it, and the playground almost comes alive. So for months, you've been staring at dirt and stone and concrete and colorful pipes, but until those kids are on it, it just comes alive. So to me, that's just amazing to see that happen.

Jeffrey Stern [00:00:28]:
Let's discover the Cleveland entrepreneurial ecosystem. We are telling the stories of its entrepreneurs and those supporting them. Welcome to the Alay of the Land podcast, where we are exploring what people are building in Cleveland. I am your host, Jeffrey Stern. And today, I had the real pleasure of speaking with the whole family behind Snyder Recreation, a company in the very business of fun where they are focused on the development of commercial playgrounds. Joining us today, we have Chuck Snyder, Jamie Snyder and Jeff Snyder. Jamie and Jeff took over the business in 2014 and today run the business focused on growing Snyder Recreation's brand and presence in the playground and recreation industry, while Chuck had founded the business back in the late eighties after over a decade working in the legal industry. If you have ever wondered how does a playground come to be and what are all of the considerations that go into making one that is fun, that is inclusive, and that is safe, that is what we will cover today From how the recreational and commercial playground industry has evolved over the last few decades, to how they think about innovation itself, to how they have continued to run a family business over the generations.

Jeffrey Stern [00:01:49]:
I really love learning about this business that fundamentally ties its success to providing a fun and safe environment for children to play. So please enjoy my conversation with the Snyder family. To kick us off here, I would love to start with a a few introductions so that people listening in could tie voices to to who each of you are. And we'll we'll go around the the whole horn here. So I don't know. Chuck, if you wanna kick us off to start.

Chuck Snider [00:02:23]:
I'm Chuck Snyder. I started the company originally in the late 19 eighties. The father.

Jeff Snider [00:02:29]:
I'm, Jeff Snyder. 3rd kid, 3rd son, and owner of Snyder Recreation Now. Part owner.

Jamie Snider [00:02:37]:
I'm Jamie Snyder. I'm co owner with Jeff.

Jeffrey Stern [00:02:40]:
Thank you guys for for the introductions. I've been really looking forward to this conversation actually. As I was thinking about it, I think playgrounds are are kind of one of those fundamental childhood underpinnings that we probably all take for granted a little bit. And as a child, I don't personally, I have such fun memories of the playgrounds I grew up in back in in New York City and the the kind of portal to other imagined worlds that they represented for me. And I imagine that that's probably the case for for many people. They just, like, create this environment that is fun and, you know, blends itself to adventure and scraping your knees and playing with strangers and, you know, Foster's imagination. Like, I I can't imagine many other places do. But I I don't think that many of us consider, like, what actually goes into them, how they come to be the creation, the manufacturing, the whole business of playgrounds.

Jeffrey Stern [00:03:33]:
So really, you know, appreciate you guys coming on to share some of what goes on behind the scenes when we when we think about playgrounds. I think it would be really helpful to kinda maybe start at the beginning. And and Chuck, if you can just, you know, take us through a little bit of your your own background and, you know, how did how did this whole thing come come to be?

Chuck Snider [00:03:52]:
Well, my background is I'm 73 years old, married, 5 kids, 13 grandkids. I went to attended Kent State, was drafted and went in the army in 1969, spent 2 years in the army, came out of the army, and I was fortunate or unfortunate as I felt at that time, but I was fortunate when I was processing out at the federal building that they sent me to my first real job as an adult, and it was for the financial division of Revco Drug Stores, which is no longer around. It's now called CVS. But I worked for Revco for a couple of years. And then when Revco was relocating to Twinsburg, which was like the under other end of the earth back in the seventies, My boss was interviewed for a job at a law firm, and then he didn't wanna leave REFCO. So he said, there's gonna be a duplication of our jobs at one location. He said, why don't you interview us for this job? Because if we move out there, he said, they're about probably gonna have you replace me. So I said, well, I'll interview you for it, see what it is.

Chuck Snider [00:04:58]:
So I interviewed for a law firm, got the job, stayed in downtown Cleveland where I was used to working, and it was with a a large law firm in Cleveland, and I was there. They call it a legal administrator, but it's basically a business manager for a law firm. I spent from the mid seventies to the mid eighties for almost 12 years working for 3 different major law firms in Cleveland and was compensated well, but was pretty frustrated with working for lawyers. And when you work for a law firm, especially a big firm like BakerHostetler, you have all the partners feel they're your boss. So if you have 70 partners in a firm, you report to 70 bosses. So it was quite an ordeal to run a company that had that many partners and that many people that felt they had a say in whether you bought a postage machine or a stapler or whatever you bought and had their opinion. So but I did that for years, and and law firms tend to deal in everybody's miseries. There are positive things that happen at law firms, but the the tendency is you usually or is litigation or fighting over something.

Chuck Snider [00:06:04]:
So I was ready to make a change. I had actually started a side business while I was with the last law firm of servicing law firms on a consulting basis with approval from the firm I was at, and I would consult with smaller law firms on developing their practice and, you know, what areas they might wanna get into to diversify their practice so they could get into real estate or different areas. But I found out very quickly I was still dealing with lawyers every day and and was still having to deal with some misery. So probably in 1987, my wife found an ad in a PTA bulletin, the local PTA bulletin for Parma Schools, where a company was looking for a person slash company to represent their products in Ohio in Northern Ohio. She showed it to me, and I thought about it a little bit. I was kind of a gym rat coaching the boys and everything anyways. So I thought recreation equipment, that would be interesting. I looked them up.

Chuck Snider [00:07:07]:
We didn't have all these Internets and stuff to look up companies back then where you could know everything, but I did what I could. And I went up to interview in Michigan and was offered the position representing a company that had a lot of lines of recreation equipment, not only playgrounds, but shelters and bleachers and bridges. And and they hired me for Northern Ohio. So we added that as, like, the recreation division to the company that we already had servicing law firms on a consulting basis. Doesn't sound like it's a match, but it worked well for a lot of years. So we started the recreation, the business in 89 or maybe 88, and it just boomed from there. I had Northern Ohio for short period of time, then I had all of Ohio, then they asked me to take over Indiana, and then they asked me to take over Western Pennsylvania and then eventually Michigan. So we ended up with 4 states.

Chuck Snider [00:08:04]:
So that's how we got started and probably I would think what year did you join us?

Jeff Snider [00:08:11]:
Full time not with sales position was 2,005.

Chuck Snider [00:08:14]:
2,005. So we we had been in business for since the 80s to 2,005. And we were actually, my wife and I were talking about selling the business. We had a few people interested in buying us out. So we were entertaining a couple of offers at the time. And Jeff approached me and said, dad, I graduated from Case in 4 years and went to work for National City Bank who had he had done an internship with and, he said they stuck me in a 4 by 4 cubicle and I've been here for 2 years and haven't seen a person. So he said, would you have an opening for me at the company? Well, the only openings we really have were for salesmen. So he came on as a salesperson in 2005.

Chuck Snider [00:08:59]:
Jamie joined us, what, 2 years later? 2007. 2007. Same situation. He was he's Jamie's a I don't wanna give away their background, but he's a mechanical engineer from Case Western Reserve. Jeff graduated in their business program from Case. So they're very talented, very smart people. I had no idea they had worked for the company through their college years and whatever role we could use them in in high school and college. So then Jamie joined the company, and we continue to grow it from there.

Chuck Snider [00:09:30]:
Around 2012 or 13, we started talking about transitioning the company. To them, I was approaching 65 years old. So we started it and probably within a 2 year period, we've met with accounts and lawyers and everything and transitioned the business over to Jeff and Jamie. And we changed the name to Snyder Recreation at that point. It was Snyder and Associates for the other years. So but they've done a wonderful job, a lot better than I did for years of running the company. So

Jeffrey Stern [00:09:59]:
that's an awesome story. A lot of a lot of things I wanna follow-up on, but maybe if we just go back a little bit, I am curious in the in the earliest days, you mentioned it seemed like a a strange pair, you know, both, you know, running this this, this recreational business while also doing all the law work. What was it to actually, you know, get into this industry and learn how it works? And it feels like an entirely different line of of work.

Chuck Snider [00:10:26]:
Well, one of the funny things when I interviewed with the company that hired me back then to rep their products, the reason they were introduced interested in me or were keen on me was because of working for the law firms. They felt that in order to sell their products, you needed to be able to deal with architects, and they considered architects very difficult people to deal with. And I kinda laughed in the interview. I said, I don't consider architects too difficult to deal with. I've been dealing with lawyers for 12 years. So, you know, so, but they thought it would be a transition where they could take somebody who wouldn't be intimidated or would be able to deal with professional architects. So, you know, and, and, and it was really no problem for me to sit down with a bunch of architects, I could care less, we put the pants on the same way as me the same way the lawyers did. So it worked well.

Chuck Snider [00:11:16]:
But the initial timing of it, I guess, because it's kind of was kind of a good old boy network. And I was coming from a different field. It was very difficult for a period of time to break into this good old boys network with the GCs and the architects and everything because my background was a little different. But it transitioned fairly quickly because I've always been involved with athletics and recreation my whole life. So that's how I mean, we still ran we still ran the legal matter of fact, still today, we have some of the legal business that we're still involved with. But it started out as the major part of our business. And then very quickly, it became a minor part of our business because we were so successful in the recreation business.

Jeffrey Stern [00:11:59]:
So I I think with with that context, it would be really interesting and helpful to understand, you know, what the the recreational commercial playground industry looks like, you know, just at a high level and and maybe how how how it's changed over over the years during your time working in it.

Chuck Snider [00:12:17]:
I guess the biggest thing with me is is the when I first started selling playground equipment, there weren't all of the all of the recreation or the regulations, I should say. I don't know if you're familiar with the NPCAI or CPSI consumer products and all the different regulations. Well, with some of the injuries that were happening on playground equipment, it became a big part of the industry. You had to really get certified and and be knowledgeable of safety zones and and pinch points and everything with playground equipment. I think that has changed and grown a lot in my years. I think you guys go get certified, what, twice every 2 years?

Jeff Snider [00:12:59]:
Every every 3 years, me, Jamie, and most of our salespeople get certified as playground safety inspectors. So we we know what we're talking about when we're meeting with customers. So a

Chuck Snider [00:13:09]:
lot of the equipment that was out there, like when I was young, we put up swing sets on asphalt parking lots. We we didn't have safety zones. All of that stuff was coming into play as I got into the business and it continued to grow and still grows today with safety regulations and and different things with making the playground safe for children. That's probably one of the biggest changes that I saw from when I started because we would just back when I started or shortly after I started is when things started changing for more regulations and and surfacing under all playgrounds and safety zones. And when you go to put a playground in, the most important thing is the space and how much zone you have around it to put safety surfacing on to protect the kids.

Jeffrey Stern [00:13:59]:
And that that has evolved over time in favor of of more safety and kind of guidelines and and rules about what that looks like?

Chuck Snider [00:14:09]:
I would say, yeah. It involved is it involved and still increases, don't you guys think?

Jeff Snider [00:14:14]:
Yeah. It's it's it's continually, reviewed. They have they have different organizations that meet and go over things like that and and adjust the guidelines and codes based on, you know, recent studies and testing and things like that.

Chuck Snider [00:14:28]:
A lot of testing is done right at the manufacturer, which wasn't done when I first started. We just say send me a swing set and they would send a swing set, but there's a lot of testing and pinch points and stuff that goes on now and it's continues. But the manufacturers do a lot of the testing of the equipment before it's sent out. So

Jeffrey Stern [00:14:46]:
So I know you guys are on the in the business of of selling fun. But I'm curious how you is there a trade off between that and and your considerations for for safety and inclusiveness and accessibility? How do you how do you think about these things?

Chuck Snider [00:15:01]:
Well, my opinion is I I think we sell still sell playgrounds for fun, and I think we want the kids to be safe. Are there some ticky tacky stuff that happened? Yes. But I think all in all, the safety stuff is good. And anytime there's an injury on a product we have out there, it's evaluated to see if it's with a problem with the product, a problem with the way it was installed, or maybe a problem with a kid pushing another kid off is all it was. So so it has come a long way, but it it doesn't to me, it didn't detract from the fun of selling what we sell. It it basically we knew we were putting safer stuff out there for the kids than I grew up on, basically.

Jeff Snider [00:15:41]:
There there's, it's it's a balancing act of giving the kids challenges and risks because that's part of learning and and part of, you know, getting older. So there's, there's a balance between safety and and challenges. And we have different age groups that you design it to. So when you meet it with a customer, you talk about what's what's the user's gonna be. Is it gonna be, like, 2 to 5 year olds? Is it gonna be 5 to 12 year olds? You know? And then we can design based on the age group. Well, most of our customers are schools and cities. So are they you know, the school, what grades are there? You know, the city, is this your main park? Is this a small park where it's gonna be little or kids? So we can design to, you know, challenge the appropriate age, but also have that safety factor in there.

Jeffrey Stern [00:16:30]:
What is the design process actually look like? I think it would be really interesting kinda soup to nuts to to hear about.

Chuck Snider [00:16:37]:
You wanna you wanna know what it was like when I started?

Jeffrey Stern [00:16:40]:
Sure. Yeah. And maybe how it's evolved.

Chuck Snider [00:16:42]:
I would sit down with a group of PTA people and say, okay. What do you want on your playground? And I they would look through the component section of our catalog and say, I want a slide, I want this, I want this. I would draw little squares on a legal pad with this whole PTA around it. Yeah. Yeah. Put 4 components off that. One would lead to another component. I would draw this on a legal pad.

Chuck Snider [00:17:03]:
And then I'd come back to the office, clean it up a little bit, and send it to the manufacturer for a drawing. But it started out with me meeting and draw sketching this up. It's much more advanced than that today, and they can tell you about that.

Jamie Snider [00:17:16]:
The design process. I guess it starts with somebody still having an idea. So I usually like to show up and and listen, have them show me the space and tell me what do you wanna see? Do you wanna see and it hasn't changed too much from what dad said is, do you wanna see swings? Do you wanna slide? Do you want this to be, you know, climbing central? Or would you rather have there be more social interaction with the kids running past each other? Or maybe it's a little bit of both. And then you take those notes and you take the space they have available. And, the fortunate thing now is we can do everything digitally and and draw things up and create 3 d images and kinda paint that picture on their site, after a few days of design work. So you can come up with a couple different variations real quickly that look, a little bit cartoonish, but very much like it will look like in real life. So throw some color in there and throw some fun play events, and the kids and the parents both can have a a visualization of what the final product can look like.

Chuck Snider [00:18:13]:
Like pictures you see up on the wall right behind you.

Jeffrey Stern [00:18:16]:
Yeah. Yeah. No. That's awesome. And so from from there, you know, you've come to a design that that the customer, the school, the city is excited about from there. Like, what is the manufacturing? What is installation? How does all of that actually work and what what's, like, the the timeline for for what a project normally takes?

Jamie Snider [00:18:35]:
That can really depend on size, but, you know, it might take a few weeks to narrow down some down some design choices. And then once you order it, it can take anywhere from 4 to, let's say, 12 weeks depending on how big the playground is and how busy season it is. If it's summer, we're obviously busier than we are in the winter time to get the playground and then depending on how big it is to build it. You know? Some playgrounds take a week, some take 8 weeks to build, and then some get different surfacing. So, you know, good old, you know, mulch can be put in in a day. But some of the more advanced surfacing we get into, like, poured rubber and artificial turf take a little more time and skill to put in. So it takes 6 months from start to finish.

Jeff Snider [00:19:15]:
And there there's a potentially before all that happens, you know, you could be meeting with, say, a PTA that's raising funds. It could take a couple of years before they get the funds or the budget that they want to for their dream playground. So we might be meeting with them and talking with them ongoing for for, you know, 6 months, a year, maybe longer before we get to that point where now, you know, they can actually make that decision, make the order, get the process started for actually, you know, manufacturing the product. You know, in some cases, it's not that long, but some cases it is, and or they're applying for grants. A lot of our equipment is based off, getting grants to to fund the projects as well.

Jeffrey Stern [00:19:59]:
What does the the market itself look like? Is there a competition in the space? How do you think about, you know, maybe as a as a company, if if there is, how you differentiate? Just curious what the competitive market looks like if if there is one.

Jamie Snider [00:20:15]:
I think no matter what you're looking for, there's always competitors. And I think that, you know, given the history with with dad and the years in business we've had, referrals are a big part of the business. And just doing a good job for each customer then creates new customers. And I think that's a big differentiator for us. Whenever you talk to somebody and they have a reference point from somebody else that that we've done a good job for and done a great playground. And even if they haven't seen us, if we can point to 3 or 4 playgrounds in their vicinity that we've done over the past few years, that's a big, big difference for the competition.

Jeff Snider [00:20:47]:
There there's a handful of main, of the main manufacturers, I would say for the playgrounds. So there's a handful of us that are always competing against each other, and we're familiar with them. And they're they're very similar companies to us. So they have a headquarters somewhere probably in Ohio and they represent a playground manufacturer. They might have other lines as well, like mentioned, like the shelters or the surfacings, you know, and and very similar business model. And and we're going up against them typically on a lot of these projects. And a lot of it is your reputation in the industry as well, what Jamie was mentioning, like, you know, if you if you got a good reputation, then then you're getting your foot in the door for the presentation part of it. And then you create these drawings and these renderings.

Jeff Snider [00:21:36]:
And that that's usually a big wow factor is to come to the meeting or presentation and show them, you know, a nice visual of what this is what you could have. You know, it's a lot it's a lot easier showing it than talking about it. And, and that's one of the several factors that that help us get, some of these jobs.

Chuck Snider [00:21:55]:
When I first started in the business, I I used to term my competitors, a lot of them, not all of them, as a love them and leave them sort of a business. They didn't install, but a lot of them would would sell the playground equipment. So say so, you know, playgrounds are are not inexpensive, but say they sold 30,000 worth of playground equipment to somebody, a school, or a city, they would have it shipped there and just wanna head for the hills, take their money, and run. So it was kind of a love them and leave them sort of business with a lot of my competition. Well, we didn't get into it for that. So I think the referrals and the growth of our company was a lot because we're there for them in the beginning, during, and after, and they continue to come to us to service them for everything. They'll pick up the phone. Some of our customers will pick up the phone and say, hey, do you guys do this? Or hey, do you guys do that? Because they know we can perform for them, and we'll be there, and we're reachable.

Chuck Snider [00:22:53]:
So I think the industry has changed a little bit, not just us, but it's all I think our competitors are more attuned into that now that you take care of people, they'll come back to you. And so it's changed over the years as far as that, but it's still a very, very competitive business. But we we have the advantage of doing a good job and a lot of referrals at this point too, which helps us with the competitors. So

Jeff Snider [00:23:17]:
Part of our customer base is cities. So like we work with park and rec directors. And typically that's that's a position they're in for, you know, a decent amount of time. So when I when we, you know, started in 2,005, you start meeting them. And as you start meeting them every year at trade shows or seeing them other places, you get to it's familiar faces, you know, and and you do some business with them and then you do a good job and they keep calling you back. So we've kinda built a network over the last, you know, how many years. And for the most part, you know, people stay in those positions at the cities for for a long time, so they know us well.

Jeffrey Stern [00:23:58]:
One of the the things I've been curious about thinking about the business is that, you know, ultimately, the the end user is not the the customer, of the product. Right? Children go into the playground. They're just they're the ones who who kind of reap the the the utility of of what it is you're you're providing. How do you guys think about children as a stakeholder in the in the organization? How do you incorporate, you know, their feedback? You know, if doing a good job is is ultimately, you know, providing fun experiences, you know, what what does that look like and and how do you think about about those?

Jeff Snider [00:24:34]:
Well, I have 3 kids myself. So I think, what are they gonna like? What do they wanna go do? Because when I finish a playground, I generally take them to it and let them go and play on it. And I see what they like and what, you know, what they do on that playground. You know, or if there's, you know, something new out there that's not playground related, but in a park setting, I take them to it. And I just kinda see where they gravitate towards, what they like. You know, we have we have certain jobs or customers where we're schools, especially where they will actually, like, have us bring a couple designs together and have the kids vote on it. So we in our mind have to think about, like, what are kids gonna like because they're voting on what playground they want. So it's fun.

Jeff Snider [00:25:20]:
I mean, and, and, you know, the end result of actually putting a playground in and then you see all these kids on it, it's great. You know, like, that's that's the goal that we wanted at the very beginning, you know.

Jamie Snider [00:25:30]:
I think Jeff and I both often revisit playgrounds we build And you watch where the kids line up, where they're, you know, scrambling to get on and where they're not. And you have to remind people of that. You know, they may wanna put something on a playground that looks good in the book, but you can say no. I know the ones that kids are gonna gravitate towards because I've been to, you know, a 100 playgrounds where they'll all run to that place that piece to play on first.

Jeffrey Stern [00:25:53]:
How much of, you know, what kids are are drawn to do you think is kinda timeless versus, I guess, outside of the safety and accessibility evolution over time, like, what is the process for, you know, innovating in design? Or is it, you know, the things that that have always worked will will will continue to work?

Jeff Snider [00:26:13]:
I think anything that moves, kids are gonna love in which one that stood the test of time is swings. Kids swings have been around forever and kids love swings, and and we still design playgrounds with swings. So that has gotten into things like the merry-go-round with spinning. There's different variations of it now. And then, you know, we've gotten into things now like where you can have a public zip line, not like, you know, some of the stuff in the Metro parks, but, you know, a zip line that can be on a playground now that is appropriate for a public park use with no, you know, nobody supervising it because it moves and kids just like the act of moving. It's just what I've observed.

Jamie Snider [00:26:57]:
I think that you can create a perception of risk, but minimize the hazard. So the kids feel like it's a challenge to climb over this or it's a challenge to spin on this or swing on this or to interact with my friend on this play piece. It's a perception of risk, but the hazard of getting hurt there is minimal. And I think that that's what kids are looking for or if there's something they can interact. So, you know, we're all social beings. What can we do on a playground where I can play with that kid I just met on the playground? I think those are keys to

Jeffrey Stern [00:27:29]:
it. As you reflect on, you know, the different playgrounds that that you've built over time, what what are some of your favorite stories that have been with you throughout that and and, you know, some some of the fun perhaps that that you carry with you?

Jeff Snider [00:27:44]:
There's there's one park in particular that I drive by almost every day that for for years was didn't really have anything there. It was a small playground that was from the 70s that was barely had anything fun to do on it. And as things were breaking, it was just getting removed. And so there's less and less playground there and you never saw anybody at this park. And it's a fairly, main street. And I was driving by every day and there's just like, there's just unused space. So eventually, the city was, you know, ready to do something. And it's been about 3 phases of different things we've done there.

Jeff Snider [00:28:30]:
And now every time I drive by there, as long as it's not snowing or raining, the park is packed. And it's just so different how that made some equipment and different things that they did made this park a place to go to a destination. And there's cars parked, you know, in all the parking lot and kids on every piece of equipment and people go there for the for the the afternoon for a picnic or whatever like that, you know, they didn't use to do that before. Now they actually make that a place to go and hang out for the day.

Chuck Snider [00:28:59]:
I would agree with that, Jeff. We we tend to when we're traveling sometimes, like, we were at I think it was a soccer meet or track meet or something out, and we stopped to see a playground that Jamie had just put in. And it was like a almost like a Cedar Point. There was lines of people and everything, and the parking lot was full. We had to find a way to park. So it's very rewarding to see something that you started a year ago. Now the kids are reaping the benefit, and we just kinda walked around and just were in awe at the amount of people there in the in the playground that was there. So that's that's kind of our reward, I think, is to see it in end use and to see the kids having fun.

Jamie Snider [00:29:39]:
I think the other thing for me, this is Jeff and I go to a lot of grand openings and, you know, you kinda get through all the construction part of it, the nitty gritty part of getting the playground in the ground. But then you go to the grand opening where there's a ribbon cutting and everybody's happy, and they cut the ribbon, you see the the kids run onto it, and the playground almost comes alive. So for months, you've been staring at dirt and stone and concrete and colorful pipes, but until those kids are on it, it just comes alive. So to me, that's just amazing to see that happen. And I would say there was one other example. I don't know why this sticks in my mind, but the mayor of the town climbed on top of one of our big climbers and was waving from top of the climb with a big old smile on his face. And I always picture like the movie Big, Like I pictured him like shrinking in his clothes and being like 4 years old. So it's kinda fascinating how much playgrounds like you started this interview with, we all remember or have fond memories of playing on the playground as a kid, you know?

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:37]:
Yeah. It brings that child back out in you.

Jeff Snider [00:30:40]:
Yeah. There there there's some jokes sometimes when you're meeting with, like, the city and the mayor, like, you know, you'll be the first one to go out on the slide when it's done. And then they're they're smiling. They're like, I will be. I will be. You know? They wanna enjoy it too. So

Jeffrey Stern [00:30:54]:
Yeah. That's awesome. I think it's it's so cool that success in some ways for the work that you do is actually just like creating fun for for other people. That's that's really impactful.

Jeff Snider [00:31:09]:
Yeah. I mean, sometimes we're looking at it like a like an open field of nothing, just grass. And that they were like, we wanna put a playground here. So you go from nothing to this beautiful playground and people are driving to it. Very rewarding.

Jeffrey Stern [00:31:23]:
How do you think about kind of the the future of the business? You know, as you turn your lens towards, you know, the the future, what what has you guys most excited? How do you think about, you know, growth and and, the the longevity of of the business?

Chuck Snider [00:31:39]:
Well, we hope it's a long time and a lot of success.

Jamie Snider [00:31:44]:
I think my kids have grown up with technology more than I have. So I see all the things they can do from, let's say, a gaming chair with video games and different interactive media, 3 d media, but that doesn't take away the the realism of actually being on a playground and feeling that environment and being in a real environment and and talking to real people. So I don't think that will ever go away no matter how much technology we create. And I think, you know, some of the pandemic kind of highlighted this. We don't like to be locked up in our homes all day long. We wanna be out amongst other people and do things that challenge us. So

Jeff Snider [00:32:21]:
I think with with it's also gotten a lot more innovative and creative with the some of the equipment and the the what they can do for manufacturing. I'd say the last maybe 10 years, a lot of things have gotten advanced. When you did a playground maybe 20, 30 years ago, it was, there's a lot of space on the playground that wasn't utilized. Like if it didn't, if it wasn't a slide or a climber, it was just a wall with nothing to do. So now over the years, they're trying to use every little bit of space on an actual playground to have some kind of activity, whether it's a music piece or tic tac toe, or it's gonna be a climber, it's a slide. You know? Now with some of the equipment there's, you know, ramps to get to it and there's railings. Well, now they're trying to make the railings interactive, not just boring railings. So they're they're they're becoming very creative and innovative on how we can maximize our playgrounds.

Chuck Snider [00:33:22]:
And I think that's happened at the at the manufacturer manufacturing level all around all of our not only the company we represent, but the competitors are they have a whole team of people that are just looking and designing new stuff for playgrounds. That's the other part of

Jamie Snider [00:33:37]:
the future is inclusion on playgrounds is that it's not just about how we all traditionally, like you say, think of play, but how all kids play and how they enjoy playing with their peers. So they're trying to get creative so that no matter your ability or disability that you're able to play on a playground with your peers. And that's the challenging part, but also some of the fun stuff that's coming out is pretty cool where they're finding ways to create that inclusion.

Jeff Snider [00:34:03]:
Yeah, I think Beck, they used to think about like, how do we get somebody that might be in a wheelchair on the playground, but now they're expanding that like, what can we do for autistic kids that would make them comfortable so that they're expanding their thoughts on how they design and put potential products on the playground.

Jeffrey Stern [00:34:21]:
Yeah. That that's incredible. That's that's very exciting. Jimmy, I'm I'm glad you brought up the the technology point as well because it was something I was curious about if I don't know if competition is the right word, but if if, like, playgrounds are in competition with, you know, children's newfound access to technology in a way that they maybe haven't before and just I don't know. To me, it feels like there's there's some, you know, foundational gravity to to playgrounds that that I don't think technology could ever replace, but I'm curious to your guys' perspective.

Jamie Snider [00:34:54]:
I don't think it'll replace it. I see them integrating it. And you see a little bit of already, like, when there was that fad with Pokemon Go. It was about getting out, but you still have to take technology with you. I think you're seeing in playgrounds where they're trying to integrate the technology, but still get kids moving. And we have a few pieces where that is the case where you do need your technology, but you're still having to run around. You're still having to, you know, interact with other people. And it's still a draw to the playground.

Chuck Snider [00:35:21]:
And it's a gathering place.

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:22]:
Yeah.

Jamie Snider [00:35:23]:
So I I I foresee it as enhancing the playground.

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:26]:
Yeah. No. It's it's it's fun to think about in that way. Maybe turning the the lens a little bit, I am curious, more from, like, a a business perspective

Jeff Snider [00:35:36]:
how

Jeffrey Stern [00:35:38]:
I don't know the the challenges, the benefits of of running a family company. We have a lot of, you know, founders and entrepreneurs on the show. And and most often the, you know, a cofounder is is is not a sibling necessarily or so how how is that, you know, whole process been? How do you guys think about about that if you do at all? Maybe it doesn't come in on the day to day so much, but how do you guys think about that?

Chuck Snider [00:36:02]:
I don't think we think about it on a day to day basis, but we were worried about the transition. We spent a lot of time with lawyers and accountants to make sure we tried to cross all our t's and dot all our i's, and we were very comfortable with the accountant we use and the lawyer we use, and we've been they've been around for years. And I think we put and the kids worked in the business when they were young, and I I'm thinking maybe my grandkids are getting old enough to maybe they'll be doing stuff in the business eventually too. So I think the key was, though, that, you know, and I don't I sound like I'm bragging, but I think we're all very intelligent, very we get along well together, but we needed to have the pieces in place to make sense so that we'd all be able to take an income out of it and do well. And that has happened, which is everything. Everybody's doing well financially and their families are growing and doing well. So I think that helps to make the business successful.

Jeff Snider [00:37:05]:
We get a lot of people that make a comment like, I I couldn't work with my family. How do you do that? You know?

Jamie Snider [00:37:12]:
Just

Jeff Snider [00:37:12]:
wanting, but no, I mean, we for the most part, I mean, we we we got along growing up. I mean, we didn't we didn't have too many scuffles besides just playing sports and wrestling. But I think we have a lot of same like minded thoughts with how we take the business and we always bounce questions off each other. We respect what the other thinks and how we're gonna approach maybe a difficult situation or or things like that. We always are interested. And it's always good to get a second opinion on anything. So I think we do a lot of that. And our cubicles are right next to each other.

Jeff Snider [00:37:47]:
So, you know, hey. What do you think about this? Or what do you think about that? I mean, even just that day to day things like on a design. Like, what do you think would be a good piece to put here or there? You know? So it's it's a lot of collaboration.

Jamie Snider [00:37:59]:
I think somehow Jeff and I have found it unique that we have have a common goal. So even if you have little things you disagree on, I think the the common goal keeps things moving along on a

Chuck Snider [00:38:09]:
long term basis, so it's beneficial. Jeff brought it up, and I think it's important in is that we are able to overhear everything that's going on. We hear the conversations in the office. And, actually, in our old space, I had kind of a loft type office, and they used to call me Danny DeVito. I don't know if you remember that.

Jeff Snider [00:38:29]:
What was that program called?

Chuck Snider [00:38:30]:
Taxi? Taxi where he sat there and he could watch everything going on. They used to tease me about that then, but I could hear everything going on in the office. And it's kinda similar where we're at now where they're they're in a group setting back there where the office staff and they're all together, so everything we're working on, everybody, if they wanna listen, they get a piece of information and can offer an opinion at any time.

Jeffrey Stern [00:38:54]:
Well, I think it's it's really such an incredible business that that you guys have built. And but before we kinda come to our our closing question, I wanna just kinda leave a little space. Any parts of the journey, parts of the business, things that are important to you guys that that we haven't talked about yet that that you'd like to share?

Jeff Snider [00:39:12]:
I always when when I talk to some customers, when I was in high school and college, I was on the installation crew. So I kinda have a unique background when they when they ask you like why why choose me, you know, versus my competitor. And a lot of it's not, it's, you know, the equipment is part of the deal. But if the customer doesn't feel comfortable with you, they're not gonna buy from you. So I try to explain, you know, my background a little bit with the installation. Now I'm not gonna say to my installers now that I'm an expert, they're the experts. But I I gained a knowledge of the mechanics of the playground and how it goes in and the little nuts and bolts to kind of explain why, you know, I think, you know, certain designs are better than other designs and things like that.

Jamie Snider [00:40:00]:
I think I for me, I mean, it it's what people view as playgrounds as fun. I guess even though we we have these construction challenges, I still enjoy, let's say, adventure sports and being outside and doing things with my kids. And I've never lost that. So what I'm building to me is what I enjoy. You know? It's it's just part of me, who I am, what I'm wired as. You know?

Jeffrey Stern [00:40:23]:
Yeah. Chuck, any any closing thoughts?

Chuck Snider [00:40:26]:
There's no duplicate days in this business. Every day is different. Every project is different. So it makes it a very, entertaining and interesting and rewarding business to be in. It's there's no mundane days. There's bad days and good days, but there's no mundane days. There's always something going on. So especially when you're covering 4 states and the amount of business we do and installing it and etcetera.

Chuck Snider [00:40:50]:
There's there's never a dull day around here. So which is why it was so hard for us to get time to get together with you. So

Jeff Snider [00:40:57]:
I will reiterate what he said. Every day is different. It's not it's not monotonous in any way.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:03]:
Well, I I, again, really appreciate you guys taking the time. I know it it took a while for us to to get this together, but I think is is an incredible story and and work that that you guys are doing. So we'll book in this with, the traditional closing question we we ask everyone on the podcast, which is for not necessarily your your favorite thing, in the area, but for hidden gems. Something that other folks may not know about that, that you appreciate in in in Cleveland.

Chuck Snider [00:41:34]:
Not connected with the business at all.

Jeffrey Stern [00:41:35]:
Completely unrelated. Unless, you know, for absence of playground. But

Jeff Snider [00:41:42]:
I was it's not I I guess it's not hidden, but being, near water. I think sometimes we take it for granted that people that live in other parts of the state of Ohio, which we see a lot, are not near water. You can't just go hang out near the water and watch the sunset or whatever it might be. I mean, that's what it's one of our parks, Lakewood Park. You know, the Solstice steps and watching the sunset, it's there's tons of people there. You know? Or if you have the opportunity to go on a boat and go in water, you know, things like that, it's it's not every location has that. So

Jamie Snider [00:42:20]:
I would say within all my travels, I don't think there's a park system like the Cleveland Metroparks. And if you you think of the Emerald Necklace and all the opportunities all around the whole rim, you know, around Cleveland, You know? I frequent a lot of them for different reasons for for running, for hiking, for just enjoying, you know, nature's beauty. I think that that's a a hidden gem that don't tell people not from Cleveland about, but everybody in Cleveland should be aware. You know?

Chuck Snider [00:42:46]:
I will piggyback on that. They're both the same thing with me. I I enjoy being on the water, and I think one of our I don't know whether it's not really secret, but one of the greatest values of living in Ohio and in Cleveland is Lake Erie. And the second one is the metro parks. And anything the metro parks takes over improves and gets a lot better. So we and whenever I hear the metro parks has taken over this or that, I know that it's gonna get better because they're taking it over.

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:13]:
Well, Jeff, Chuck, Jamie, again, really appreciate you guys coming on. I think it's it's an incredible story. Yep. Really, really appreciate it.

Chuck Snider [00:43:21]:
Well, we thank you. Thank you.

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:23]:
If folks had anything they wanted to to follow-up with you about, what would be the the best way for them to to do so?

Chuck Snider [00:43:29]:
I'd give them Jeff or Jamie's number.

Jeff Snider [00:43:32]:
I'm up there.

Jamie Snider [00:43:33]:
They try at

Chuck Snider [00:43:34]:
our website.

Jamie Snider [00:43:35]:
It's, cvsnyder.com. Charles Victor Snyder.com.

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:40]:
Perfect.

Jeff Snider [00:43:40]:
I think you can go to the website which has our phone number and all that. And we have a live person that answers the phone. It's not automated or anything like that. They they can get to us.

Jeffrey Stern [00:43:51]:
That's all for this week. Thank you for listening. We'd love to hear your thoughts on today's show, so if you have any feedback, please send over an email to [e-mail], or find us on Twitter at podlayoftheland or @sternjefe, j e f e. If you or someone you know would make a good guest for our show, please reach out as well and let us know. And if you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and leave a review on iTunes or on your preferred podcast player. Your support goes a long way to help us spread the word and continue to bring the Cleveland founders and builders we love having on the show. We'll be back here next week at the same time to map more of the land.