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There are those in the spotlight, and then there is Everybody Else.
Hosted by Wes Luttrell (Indiana-based artist manager, development coach, and founder of Wally Opus Records), Everybody Else is a podcast dedicated to the invisible people who make music happen. Featuring solo commentary and insightful interviews with artist managers, record label execs, booking agents, tour managers, lawyers, music tech founders, music producers, venue managers, and a slew of others whom we'd consider to have the most interesting jobs in the world.
Speaker 1 (00:00)
This is the Everybody Else Podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03)
who are the invisible people of music today and what do they do to make music happen? Because behind every great artist, song, venue, festival and music service, there's a tribe of people who will dedicate their lives to work that if done right, will never appear to have happened. There are those in the spotlight and then there's everybody else.
Speaker 1 (00:29)
Absolutely. So my role at the moment at SAW is Head of Campaign Management. So the way that we work as a business is predominantly independent artists, but not limited to obviously working with some of the artists that you work with at labels. We offer different promotional services to help artists get more ears on their music and more eyes on them just generally, not just with the end listener, but also with
wider industry, you know, there are different ladders that you need to work your way up with the different rungs to get that exposure, to get those more significant opportunities to also increase your exposure and awareness and discovery of you as an artist. So at the moment, we have a smaller team of around four campaign managers that I oversee on a day to day. The campaigns that we oversee are relating to play listing.
So making sure that you're getting streams on your music. It's not just your friends and family and a static audience that hears your music. We do press campaigns, so making sure that people find out a bit more about your story. A lot of people, when it comes to music and discovering artists, they don't really go too in-depth into the backstories, the influences behind their music, unless the artist is producing content to talk about that.
And press obviously serves a different purpose than play listing in terms of it's not necessarily a case of I read an article, I'm going to go click through, listen to the artist. It's more, I get to know a bit more about who the artist is, why they're making music. And also from a discoverability purpose, there's nothing worse than as an artist searching your name and nothing comes up. When you search your name on Google, you want to be able to see these are the song links, these are YouTube videos. Here's some articles telling a bit more about you.
how many people really read the bio on Spotify. think it's probably quite minimal unless you're in the music industry yourself and you need to pay attention to that kind of thing. And then on the other side of campaigns, we do ever think from radio campaigns. So that can be a mix of digital, regional, the largest stations we know are more governed by label music artists. But again,
Everything's the ladder. So getting the traction on some of those other radio stations increases your chances getting heard on a higher profile station. The same as it is with press, the same as it was with play listing. And then we also do campaigns relating to label pitching, collaboration opportunities, and then a bit on the advertising side. But we're always looking at different campaigns that we feel we can provide value with.
and understanding where shifts are happening in terms of what is more in demand right now. So if we're looking at social media management or social content strategy, how can we provide that alongside the other services that we offer so that it can complement what an artist is looking to achieve, but at the same time being cognizant of the fact that every artist has a different situation. Some have management teams, some don't. Some have worked with previous firms and it hasn't quite worked out previously for one reason or another.
or maybe their brand or their strategy has changed. So understanding what an artist situation is now in terms of budgets they've got available, what they're looking to achieve, why they're making music, and then being able to advise on what are the suitable campaigns based on what they're telling us they need. So my role is typically making sure that the right campaign managers are allocated to the right clients and making sure that we're delivering on everything that we say we can deliver. If we're saying that we're going to achieve a certain amount of streams.
by a certain date, how do we make sure that that's taken place? So working with different playlist partners, how do we keep track of performance relating to daily streams, the volume of playlists, where you're being placed on playlists, the same with press. I trust my campaign managers to do what they need to do, but I'll be there to kind of provide a bit more of soft touch support. And then also, like you said before, if it's a particular brief that might be
beyond your typical scope of work rather than a simple self-serve structure, something a bit more strategic. I'll come in, provide a bit of consultancy, find out some of those questions and answers that can help guide what I think we should be looking at doing, and then making sure that these plans take place and they're in an actionable way so that you can get from A to B in the most effective way possible.
Speaker 2 (05:04)
So when a new artist comes in, let's say that somebody comes to you for the first time, they don't even know what they want, they just want exposure. What kind of questions are you asking to get familiar with their project? Are you thinking, are you just starting with a clean slate? You're like, okay, tell me about, what are your goals? Is it goal-oriented? it based on what they're doing? Is it based on their genre? Where do you kind of start when a new artist comes in and they don't know what they want, but they know they need promotion?
They don't, they're not clear though. Where do you kind of coach them through that? What are you asking? What are you trying to understand?
Speaker 1 (05:41)
Yeah. So for me, there's a few different factors. think ultimately starts with the music. If you can hear from a particular track or a project or what an artist has been delivering, quality is there. know, the production sounds like it's up to scratch. You know, it's actually market ready. I think that's a first point of discussion because at the end of the day, if we're going to be bringing someone on board and we're
looking to get the greatest chance of achieving what we want to achieve. You need to sometimes have, I won't say a difficult conversation there if it's not quite up to scratch, but you're trusting us to give you advice on how you can maximize your potential. So that's the first point. If something's not quite there, it could be a bit more mixed, be a bit more professionally mastered, but you can see that the bones are there in terms of the melodies are right. The lyrical themes and content are generally quite good and you can see where they might resonate.
Then it's kind of a bit of a work back strategy. So there's never a kind of starting question per se. Sometimes it's a case of just letting an artist talk at you, give me as much information you've got, and then you decide where you want to start with. But before you jump on a call, understanding what you're working with in terms of the music that's being delivered. Is it something that's ready to go now, ready to promote? Then you're asking questions around timelines. So how you've been releasing music previously versus how you're looking to release music now.
When are you looking to get out this single if it's just one song you're talking about particular? If it's part of a project, know, have you got a timeline in mind of when you want it to release the project? How many songs are going to be on the project for you? Is there a song that you feel is the focus track? And if you feel it's a focus track, how fixated on that are you? Because if I listen to something and I think actually that's the standout song there where you can do a lot more around, then there's another conversation to be had. So.
There's a bit of fact finding that takes place in terms of understanding what you're working with in terms of existing catalog and upcoming catalog. Then you're trying to understand the why of an artist. And I think this is one of the most, well, I'll say one of the least thought about questions with artists. If you say, why do you make music? Some people can find that really difficult to answer and there's no perfect answer. You know, you don't have to be doing this because you want to sell out arenas.
You want to have as many streams as possible. Some people, it is a way of telling their story or it's like therapy for them. And it just so happens that the music is quite good. So that's a great vehicle for them put out in the world. But then as a byproduct of that, people relate to the music and it becomes their therapy. So is it a case of they're just doing it for themselves? You know, this is just something they enjoy, but, know, they wouldn't mind seeing if other people resonate with it. If it's a case of, you know,
They've got a deeper meaning behind it. They've been through a difficult situation. let's say you kind of, you're Mac Miller or you're Deuce World type musicians where there's some maybe darker themes there. You're talking about some really sensitive issues and particularly with what you've got going on at the moment in the mental health crisis. If you want to call it that with people not talking and suffering in silence. If your mantra is I want to make music so that people don't feel so alone.
Okay, great. How do we make sure that you are being connected with the people where they can resonate with these lyrics and it makes their life a little bit easier. So the idea that one artist may say, I just want to make music and if it saves one person's life or makes one person's life a little bit easier and they feel a little bit more understood. Great. That's a simple objective. For some, it's obviously a case of I want this to be my career. I just love making music. I love performing. Okay, great. what you're looking to do is get as many opportunities to play in as many venues and
festivals. And again, if they're looking to that full time, they're obviously looking to monetize that because live is expensive in terms of travel. Not all venues are going to pay, but again, you go back to that ladder analogy that you used before. You have to do some of those venues that are smaller, where there's less attendance to be confident in what you're actually putting out there, you know, to be confident in how you want your setlist to look. And then when those opportunities come for the bigger opportunities with like festivals.
and gigs, whatever that might be, you want to be able to have your own audience that comes through to that. Or if they're not your own audience that's coming in terms of ticket sales, making sure that the people there are more likely to say, right, I want to come back and see this person again. I want to go engage their music. And they're more likely to be an engaged fan or listen to your music time to time. So there's an element of understanding, you know, why is someone making music? What's their objective? Then it's understanding the marketing aspect of it all.
If I was to say to you now, who would you say your inspirations in your music or what genres would you associate your music to? You don't need to put it into one box necessarily, but you want to have an idea of what you feel you're trying to deliver because then if that matches up and I can hear that great. If it's not quite matching up, okay, what can we do to influence that? So if you're thinking in terms of just the audio branding, that's where we're talking about the mixing mastering.
You know, could you work with a particular type of feature artist or different types of producers? Or, you know, we're looking at more of a remix, you know, working with some, some DJs potentially that can introduce an audience, but tap into the different genre influences that you mentioned. At the same time, if you've got a particular track and your sound is shifted, you're saying, right, this music is more inspired by your sort of Michael Jackson funky R &B. Can I hear that at the first point of listening to it? And if I can, great.
there's something to work on and see how we can connect with people that would listen to that type of music. And then obviously you've got the other aspects in terms of like the visual brand and identity. If you're saying, you know, I'd love to do brand collaborations. Okay. Well, which kind of brands would you love to work with? Or, you know, if you're saying I'd love to do a catwalk for Louis Vuitton, for example.
Do you look like someone that Louis Vuitton would consider? Do you marry their brand values? Do you look like someone that they would hire as a model? And does your music actually resonate with the feel, the experience they're trying to create? So there's an element of a work back approach. There's so many different little things to consider. So every call you have of an artist is always going to be different. But I think that's the beauty of it. You're speaking to artists in a more informal way. You're understanding them as a person behind the brand.
Because as an artist as well, are, you're not just a singer. A lot of people are maybe just musicians, but in this day and age, you almost have to be your marketing director. You have to be your creative director. You have to be wearing so many different hats. If you've not got a manager, you are also your own accountant. Anything that's admin related. And let's say if you're trying to get shows now you're your own booking manager. trying to work out what is most important.
to what they have right now and what they're trying to achieve. But if they feel that they do need a booking manager, for example, putting yourself in the lens of, I'm a booking agent or I work for a talent agency, what criteria needs to be ticked for me to consider working with you? So then that obviously helps frame what the challenge is from our end and what we need to advise. And that's obviously where we try to make sure that the services we recommend are suited for them based on their timelines.
their budgets and where they're trying to get to. So I don't always say it's how you get from A to B, because A to B can change very quickly, but bringing it down into more of a palatable sense of, what we're doing over this next 30 days or what do we need to do over this next month? And then if I ask you, where do you want to be in a year's time or what's the big ambition that you're aiming towards, then we can see how everything's aligned with that.
Speaker 2 (13:48)
Yeah, that's the, you know, it's the beauty of Soar is you guys have such a toolbox of different offerings that address all these different areas at whatever time the artist or whatever stage that they're in exactly. What do you, from your experience now ⁓ at Soar specifically, the artists who come in who are finding the most success, what are some of the things that they're doing right? Or what are they...
What's working right now for artists? ⁓ Because I think that there's a lot of misconception around play listing. I think people think play listing is like, that you're just gonna like get me a bunch of streams and then I'm gonna go on to be something big. it's, play listing is just a piece of the puzzle that works with all these other working things oriented towards a goal. But what are the clients that you've been working with, what are they doing right? What's working right now?
Speaker 1 (14:42)
Yeah. So I think one of the key things will always be consistency. So they are not looking at it in a way of, right, I've made a song and I'm put it out, but they don't know what follows after that. So I think the most effective artists that we work with have a clear strategy in place. So if they don't, we obviously come in and support them with getting them on the right trajectory to execute said strategy. So I think for me it's consistency. They're able to produce.
quality music on a regular basis. And part of that, I think is down to understanding that the music industry is largely governed by algorithm. Now, when you look at what success is as well, that's another factor, think. I think when you speak to artists, the artists that can understand what success is in context is a really important factor. Because just getting, like you said there, a load of streams.
That's a social proof to an extent. And don't get me wrong. It serves a purpose because you don't want just what less than a thousand artists, a thousand listeners listening to your music. And it just sits, it doesn't really do anything. There's element of being prepared to also action these different successes or milestones. So for me, successful artist or a successful client for us to be working with understands that
expectations need to be managed effectively. You don't want to jump to the end of the race. know, at the end of the day, the music industry is a marathon, not a sprint. If you're just looking for quick validation, you just want lots and lots of streams, make yourself look a lot bigger than you are. Streams aren't paying your bills. We know that royalties are quite low. Well, that's an understatement, but you can't rely on streams to carry you as an artist. So you're looking for the artists to understand that
You have to tick certain boxes to move forward in a sustainable way. And that's what development and growth is. It's understanding, right, what do we do next? Put one foot forward in front of the other and at a pace that is actually attainable for them. So for me, if we were bringing someone on an ideal situation is they've got four or five different singles that they're ready to release. They're happy to release. They've not necessarily committed to.
a particular release date because they understand do it properly. Don't just get the music out there for the sake of, because then we've got some room to provide more counsel and advice. If that release is coming out in say two weeks and they're just adamant that I have to put out then we're not going to struggle getting you onto playlists and getting you those streams because it's not time dependent in that respect. But if you're talking about wanting to get pre-saved, you're talking about engaging
those listeners prior to the song coming out, that's a much smaller timeframe to work with. And then it's the same in terms of like post-release understanding that post-release, if you spent six months working on a song or a project, why would you stop promoting that song after what, two weeks and then just focus onto the next? So there's an element of understanding, you know, what they view success as and managing expectations. I think that's one of the biggest challenges that I.
and the team have to manage. But obviously that starts with the very first call of the artist, making sure that we understand what they're trying to achieve. We're being transparent and explaining what we think success looks like. And we're all on the same page. So if you've got a series of releases and we can say, right, for this release, we suggest this is what you do. We just do playlisting to begin with on that. But then also for that second release, we think you need to do a playlisting campaign on that too, because we want to trigger the algorithm there. More list this, the...
know, stream your song, that's great, but how do we make sure that those listeners are repeat listeners? They're not just listening once and then moving on. How can we make sure those listeners are listening two or three times? They're more likely to go listen to your other songs in your Spotify, Apple Music, catalog. Then at the same time, how can we take that a little bit further? The next call to action, which would probably be they follow you and they're getting updates on, you know, when your next release is coming out.
But then again, this is all within just one ecosystem. So the way that I always look at, I'll say, I'll use Spotify a lot as an example, because I just think that's the main service that is, yeah, as a streaming platform, that's where people are most focused on. And it's got a slightly different infrastructure. We can take everything that's going on, you know, from a kind of more political, let's say sensitive perspective with Daniel Weck, you know, with a different conversation, but.
I think in terms of Spotify is still the main platform people are to use. Spotify, and it's something I always say to any artist that's particularly new to music marketing or, you know, isn't maybe well versed in that area. You recontextualize things. Spotify is not a music business. It serves a music industry to an extent, but all it is is it's a tech platform, you know, it's storage if you like. So I always use the analogy that it's like a department store. You know, you go into that department store.
your artist profile is almost the space within that department store. There's a lot of people that are occupying space in that department store. So how do you get them to come to your area? Now playlists, the way that I view them are almost like your promotional displays or shelf space. Ideally, the higher up on that shelf you are, the more likely you are to be considered, then it's about the quality of the product. So if you were to say like your music's a hoodie, I walk onto this particular area in the store.
that would be the playlist. Your song is number five on that playlist, so it's more likely to be listened to considered. That's basically seeing that song at eye level. Then the next call to action is, am I gonna take it to checkout, which basically means, it can mean multiple things, but I typically view that as meaning it's saved into my library, I stream it or I listen to it again, or is it a case of, right.
you listen to this, but you know, I'm not ready to kind of come back to it later. So maybe I'll come and view that artist again at a later date. Then you've obviously got the factors in terms of, right. What about the idea of getting them directly to my store? Not relying on the department store because like I said, it's about call to actions and this is where measurement and what success looks like is always different. I think when you can get people to come to you directly, you've got your link in bio. That's like your
own store. So if you've got an artist's website ⁓ or you've got some merchandise or a ticket sales, that for me is where you're going directly to my own store, to my own website as a brand. And that's where I think you ultimately want to get to. That's where you're going to be able to monetize. That's where you're going to be able to get a richer engagement with your kind of passive fans or potentially interested consumers. Because I mean, listeners for me are customers rather than consumers.
And it's a case of how can we get them to maybe sign up to an email newsletter where they're to find out about these different events that you're putting on, what you're doing creatively behind the scenes. They're commenting, they're engaging, and now they become part of your marketing funnel to an extent because they recommend and they trigger the algorithm on your behalf. It's the same way where if someone's engaging with your music on Spotify, you're triggering your Spotify popularity score. You're more likely to come up on algorithmic playlists. You're more likely to be considered for
Spotify's editorial playlist, which, you know, other, probably the big fancy displays at the middle of Christmas, you know, big tree around. So listen to this, they're telling you what to listen to. So I think coming back to like your original question about, what's a perfect artist, it's someone that's willing to understand the numbers on the bill and end all, but they are obviously useful to make sure that things are going in an upward trajectory. But then also they're not likely to be disheartened when things aren't quite landing because
You could have a perfect plan in place and for whatever reason, something doesn't quite work for, you know, multiple different factors. It doesn't mean that it's not going to work in the future. You have to be a little bit resilient. You have to persevere. And again, if you've got a plan, you stick to that plan. You obviously check in and if it works, great. If something isn't quite working, how can we do something differently? So I think it's an openness to, to listen to people that have.
experience working with multiple artists at different stages of their career. And at the same time, they're willing to commit. They're willing to treat this as a, almost like a full-time commitment, but they understand that you are technically a startup. You know, you are not, you've not really got a reason to listen to you. It's your job to create something that people might want to listen to, to create a brand that people want to engage with.
and then find the right team around you to help execute that.
Speaker 2 (23:53)
Yeah, know, one of the things that we learned working with you guys, even last year, one of the more success stories, I think, for us was how hiring you guys to do play listing for, you guys did a couple for the Chugs. They're a punk band that we work with here locally. And we only play listed one of their songs and we didn't do a big spend. We just did...
We did a modest spend, but it was targeted towards ⁓ the punk genre and rock genre. And what it did for us was give us enough monthly listeners to qualify for the Spotify advertising tools showcase. so now they just spend, now they float above the 2,000 listener, 2,000 3,000 monthly listeners. And while the one song we playlisted has the most streams to date,
It also, it just unlocked the next stage of advertising to where we could be more direct on the platform of Spotify, which their entire catalog now has modest streams, but it's appropriate to where they're at because they're also, it's unlocked bigger show opportunities in other regional cities and a festival opportunity on the other side of the country that they just played a few months ago. And it served as this sort of like,
almost like it started the engine. It got the algorithm going for them to where we could now begin to nurture the algorithm to suit them more specifically, more targeted over a period of time. But we needed that initial spark to get things going with playlists, worldly, globally, to now be able to hone in more specifically towards an audience of their listeners using other tools on top of the play listing.
It was like, was a piece of a bigger puzzle for them that's worked really effectively versus, you know, other times we've just spent thousands and thousands of dollars with no aim. it's like, we learned a shit ton in that period because it was like, okay, great. The same goes for, I've seen an, I know an artist who, she landed in a giant Spotify playlist, thought, shit, here goes my career. And then as soon as the song was removed, her listeners tanked and there was nothing to support it. It was just.
existed in a vacuum and it's you got to, it's part of an entire thing. It's not just this is going to catapult your career into stardom. It's just a piece
Speaker 1 (26:27)
Peace.
100%.
Speaker 2 (26:33)
You know, it's cliche to say it's all about who you know, but in the music industry, it is all about who you know. It's true. But what if you make great music, you got all the connections in the local scene, but your music's just sitting idly on DSPs like Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon, it's just chilling there, like a bobber floating in the middle of ocean, just lonely, just sitting there, waiting on something to bite. If you wanna make a bigger splash, it's time to begin partnering with the people who can help you get your music heard.
insert my friends at Symphonic Distribution. Frankly, not all digital distributors are built the same. And as a new artist, Symphonic gives you the opportunity to get started using their platform to get your music out there and become familiar with their tools as a paid subscriber through a starter pack. With the starter pack, you'll retain 100 % of your royalties for the low yearly fee of $19.99.
But really that's just the beginning because as your project grows, so too can your connection with the team, the real people, and the resources offered to you by Symphonic. ⁓ it must have been about a year and a half ago. I set up my first release through a starter pack on Symphonic on behalf of one of the artists on my label, which is trying out something new back then. And I soon realized I had some connections within the distributor. And after a few emails and an introduction through a fellow artist friend who was using Symphonic,
We became a quick partner and now we partner with them regularly on our Wally Opus releases with our client manager, Griffin, who was featured on episode three of the podcast. And we've grown a connection with the rest of their marketing department who are actively pitching our music to curators from all across different DSPs like Apple, Spotify, and Amazon Music. So if you're a new artist and you want to get involved, head to Symphonic.com and sign up for a starter pack. Using the code word everybody else at checkout will get you
25 % off your first year. It's a little something to get you into the door and please let them know Wes sent me. Look, it's daunting to set out in pursuit of building a music career in 2025, but it becomes easy to meet the right people. I would know I'm building all of my record label podcast and coaching service right here in Southern Indiana. So I've had to really branch out and get my people. And perhaps your journey in finding the right people begins by joining Symphonic.
Speaker 1 (28:35)
easier as you
Speaker 2 (28:52)
Thank you to Symphonic for sponsoring this episode and now back to the show.
Speaker 1 (29:00)
I think the jigsaw analogy is definitely something that plays true there as well. think you're looking at putting all the pieces in place and there's not just one singular thing that determines success. You know, you're putting yourself in as many window shops as possible to be discovered and you are trying to just amplify how can I get higher quality windows to be in so that I can get that attention. And I think there's definitely an element of test and learn. think with
how the marketing services industry works within music. People have used one press agency or they've used one agency for play listing, one agency for radio. And sometimes there's an element of things haven't quite worked out and that can affect the trust of an artist to really kind of pursue. Some people that we work with might have a very particular view of what they want to get. But I think for us, when you say
You know, the, the jigsaw, the puzzle is making sure that like, this is the piece that we're focusing on here. And then we can look at the other pieces that align quite quickly directly. So that puzzle puzzle breaks out, but then also thinking about the other corners that, know, we're not leaving unattended because we want that to form. ⁓ so I think when it comes to, ⁓ with play listing, naturally you can't predict who the end listener is of that playlist. That's just not how something works.
You know, it would be amazing to say with certain playlists, like everyone that listens to this is based in the UK, but that's just not necessarily the case because everyone's got their own ways of discovering music and their own playlists that they follow. You know, for me personally, how I discover music is a mix of recommendations or I'll refresh the feeds based on a song that I've listened to. So I'll go onto song radios.
And I'll go through, you know, bit of the rabbit hole with it. And then all of a sudden I'm, I started with, right, I really liked this R &B song and now I'm listening to an indie band on a playlist that's about emerging music in Canada. But then I like that because then I'm like, okay, actually let's see what else is going on in Canada within this area. Okay. I like the indie music that I'm hearing from Canada. It's slightly different to what I'm used to here. Let's see if they've got more general emerging artists or ⁓ artists that are actually established and quite
significant based on where they are in that market, but I wouldn't have heard them necessarily because they're not going to be on UK radio or, you know, it's the same way they might not necessarily be having so much of a European presence. It doesn't mean they're not good artists. It just means that maybe that market's not been explored or, you know, people that are listening to them don't necessarily have the same discovery process as I am. You know, everyone that's a listener or fan, there's no...
definition of what a perfect fan is or, you know, what a perfect listener is. So I think for me, what you're saying about like the test and learn, there is an element of figuring out what works with different budgets, where is the audience coming from? And then if you've got that kind of more core audience that you can focus on, you know, the whole 1000 true fans analogy, then the challenge is, okay, if I've got 1000 true fans, how can I get them all to spend, I know
20 Canadian dollars in my music each year. So I know that from these 1000 fans, that's what I'm getting as a revenue stream. The next challenge is, okay, how do I increase the revenue per fan that we have there? And is that through like tickets? Is that through merchandise? Is it through other sort of experiences? Royalties, I kind of would just exclude from that consideration because that's its own different world. But then...
The other kind of side of it is how do I now find the next 1000 other true fans that are willing to spend 20 Canadian dollars and then I've got the X amount that spend 50 Canadian dollars. So it kind of keeps scaling. Then you've obviously got your kind of more passive fans that kind of dip in out over time. So maybe they spend five Canadian dollars a year or 20 Canadian dollars a year, whatever that might be, but it adds up. So you're trying to make sure that you're not neglecting the core fan base and what the data is telling you.
But then at same time, looking at how you can increase that. And I think that also comes back to the whole thing about numbers and expectations, not getting too obsessed with like growth for the sake of growth. Are you actually in a position where you're ready for that? Are you just kind of spending money blindly investing when the return on investment is going to be, or should you be investing it in a smaller area, a more targeted focused area, where actually that's going to have a better ROI?
that's going allow you to connect with that bigger audience in the future anyway. So I think that's why it's useful to have not necessarily just a manager or sometimes having a label, but having that team or having people that you can consult with and advise you on the best way to go. That's incredibly valuable. And I think, you know, my favorite analogy, I love an analogy would also be with, you when you think about social media, asking a question of if you went viral tomorrow, great.
Amazing. You've got, 5 million views on ⁓ a particular song or your sound been used that amount of times. Are you actually in a position to take advantage of that viral moment? What happens when you go viral? Is it going to be like, everyone remembers your song for two minutes, your 30 seconds of fame, and then what, you know, are you actually putting systems in place where when everything works out there, right, I'm able to leverage this to get booking opportunities or to get a potential distribution deal. Because if not,
What you're going to do is you're going be chasing that viral moment again. And it's just a vanity metric. And is that really a true measure of success or growth as an artist? Not necessarily, but with the way that TikTok, Instagram, YouTube shorts, whatever platforms they are for social, they obviously encourage things based on numbers and that kind of ⁓ growth validation. But I think it comes back down to finding a balance between quality and quantity.
You know, if you're just going to be putting things out for the sake of, yes, you can learn different lessons from that, but at the same time, not just doing it blindly because you feel pressure to, I just have to get something out. You know, I think take a step back so you can go a load of steps forward.
Speaker 2 (35:24)
I mean, that's, goes back to your consistency point. think that is, cause people go viral every day, but it's the, it's the like journey. If you go viral, is there something to land on that's going to keep us going versus just we, and then we came right back down. This is probably the much more common thing is that we go up and we go straight back down versus riding the wave, which is funny because most people seek virality thinking that's the way, but it's really, it's the consistency. And if it pops, great, but
We gotta stay going here. This isn't just one time.
Speaker 1 (35:55)
100%. And I think it also creates a disheartening moment for artists as well, because if they've had that viral moment and they see that they've got loads of people engaging with their content, the social following is going up, but no one's listening to the music. No, it's not translating. No one's paying to go to shows. What would you rather? Would you rather have 500,000 followers on TikTok and 10 million views on a video?
Or would you be much more satisfied with having that 1000 true fans that are going to engage? Yes, it's good to know that right. 5 million people have viewed my video and you know, I've got half a million people to subscribe ⁓ to the content put out. But again, what's the call to action? What is the purpose of them coming to your profile on these platforms? So again, it can be an exciting thing knowing, right, I've managed to get these numbers up, but
How do I convert them? If I could just get 1 % of that 500,000, for example, what would that mean for me? You know, how can I focus on that? How can I hone in on that? Because otherwise what happens is people do get this heart. And I've spoken to artists that, know, are very, very talented and they look, I'd say they look bigger than they actually are because they've established that audience base there, that follower base.
followers not maybe necessarily the right term, know, followers is a social term, but in terms of a music follower, what is it really achieving? And then they get disheartened and they think something's not quite working here. Should I still be making music? What am I doing this for? And that's where they need a voice of reason from someone like myself, from a manager, because the reality is there are going to be a lot of ups and downs. That is just how it works with music industry. Some songs aren't going to perform as well as you did, but
You've got to think of how many other artists you're competing with for their attention span with music and how many people they've discovered beforehand that they're loyal fans of. But then you're not just competing against other artists, you're competing against content creators because that's what you also are now as a music artist. You're creating some kind of audio content. You're competing for attention span, which is significantly lower than it used to be. And then that's when you also factor in people want to spend time.
you know, listening to podcasts or, you know, watching podcasts. So trying to find your space within that is difficult and it can be disheartening, but all you can do is going back to the original word of consistency, stick to what you're doing, believe in what you're doing and remember that you're doing it for yourself. If you're making music for other people, I don't think you're ever really going to be happy or content. And I do just think that leads towards.
putting things on the back burner, shelving music projects and ultimately giving up. So you do need to have a certain mindset of disassociating like, right, the numbers, are they all the be all and end all? But are you making music that you enjoy making that feels like you? And if people are resonating, then great. Then we can double down on that and expand on how we can make sure that I can do what I love for the rest of my life and actually live a...
a good quality of life where I'm not wondering how much am I going to be able to spend on my weekly shop this week or whatever else it might be.
Speaker 2 (39:21)
So, switching gears, take me back to your journey in music. Where did this all start for you? How did you get into this? What made you want to get into this when you were just a young guy?
Speaker 1 (39:34)
Yeah. I mean, for me, it's a bit more of an unconventional. No, it was, ⁓ something that I've fallen into more around what the 2020 time pandemic, obviously you look at where you're at when the world's kind of like shutting down and where you want to see yourself going career wise. So I've always been, you know, a very particular music head, listen to everything, indie, R and B rap, hip hop folk.
For me, it's not about the genre, it's just the music that resonates with you for certain moods, situations, the lyrical themes of content, the delivery. It's just always been interesting. So if you look at my dad's music taste, for example, he loves more the kind of Dean Martin's, Frank Sinatra's, there'd have been some Michael Jackson on in the car journeys. know, if I look to a stepfather, for example, he was more kind of like your Rolling Stones.
You kind of Tom Petty in the Heartbreakers thing is. ⁓ Yeah. Great. Very different eras of music where for someone my age, I wouldn't be the target market for that, but it's music that I like and you go back and you look at how music's evolved, where it's come from to get where it's now and you see who the influences are on some of the bigger artists nowadays. But previously it would have been in case of I just listened to the music that was on TV, know, like MTV top 10 songs of the day.
That Bluetooth music era, just like, send me Alicia Keys, no one. Send me Sean Kingston, Beautiful Girls, all these kinds of songs. But I went into marketing. I was always really interested in themes of identity, the brand aspect of creating a product and then just the different spaces you can go in there. So the idea of like personality.
a product or a brand, it's just like any other person and day to day carving about what is your core values, what interests you. If you ask me three things that you want your brand or your product to be known for, what would people say they would be or who are similar brands? For me, that's interesting associations. So I was very interested in going into more that space. I was actually a
a personal trainer, I was really interested in the fitness industry for a while. You know, the idea that people, you know, use a personal trainer to add value to themselves, whether it's I want to look better with what I see in the mirror, or I want to be able to run a marathon the next amount of time, because what does that result in? It gives them a sense of fulfillment that's going to benefit them in maybe their professional life or their personal life.
So for me, that was always very interesting. Eventually I got tired of the fitness industry and like personal training because I think there's an element of people get a bit obsessed and it can become too much of your personality to an extent. Well, that's how I felt for myself. But if the, the goal is I'm doing something for myself, that's interesting. I went into working for a PR agency.
coming out of university, which was slightly different from advertising, but the idea of working with lots of different brands, with different identities in different sectors, understanding what stands them apart, what their goals are, what their communication style is as well, in terms of who are they trying to communicate to and what's the end goal. You know, for me, that's not too dissimilar from personal training in a way. It is a case of just trying to get from A to B. If I get to A to B, what would success look like?
And what would that mean? You know, what would be the result from that, whether that's tangibly or psychologically, socially, whatever that might be. So worked in kind of reputation management, worked with some interesting clients like Timberland, Norface, Napa Peery under VF Corporation holding company. You had your more lifestyle companies there and brands within that. like Mars Group in the UK, you've got like Galaxy Chocolate, Bounty. ⁓
various others. again, each of those are trying to appeal to a different audience within a big holding group. So with that time period, you're doing a lot of things with regards to like social listening, know, press release campaigns, going out to publications that can tell a story, activations in terms of live events. And for me, you know, music was always an outlet. And I would say it was actually more through the kind of the fashion music culture.
websites or magazines that I started thinking actually this might be an area I want to go to. You know when you're following someone like a heist and a biote or a notion and you're seeing how fashion is playing a key part in ⁓ an artist's brand campaign so you know they're doing a pop-up event where they're going to be singing a live event and you know there's going to be some branded merch.
launching another product there. It's in an interesting space. It's very, it's a very experiential, you know, it's a bit more feeling related rather than just metric based. So for me, I would go to quite a few events when it was like product launches, if there was like a music element. And then off the back of that, I started thinking, you know, this is a more interesting area. You know, you're, you're seeing artists working out how they can connect to audiences and create deeper experiences there.
And there artists that you're seeing like, have I not heard of this person before, you know, and why have I not heard this person before? So you start going into more of the independent artists space. So what I started doing was I started going to more events by myself predominantly, where I was just like, right, let's see what's on at the Jazz Cafe in London, for example, this artist looks cool, I've listened to a few songs, let's go watch him live or watch her live or them live.
⁓ okay, this is cool. Let's see, ⁓ where they're performing next and again, series performing those venues and who have they done artist collaborations with. And that's where my Spotify algorithm started going on this tangent where a lot more independent music artists is coming into it. And then you start to get a bit of a taste for, okay, I feel like this artist is going to do quite well. This artist I could see blowing up. and you get that sort of satisfaction from being like, okay, I called this first. I saw this from a mile off. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (46:07)
Do you feel like you have a, this is a common thread, this is a common thread. You feel like you have that sort of sense of there's something to this beyond what I'm seeing. Like this person is on a trajectory, they have the intangible it factor that could produce something great. This is a common thing that I talk to you about.
Speaker 1 (46:27)
Yeah, exactly that. So obviously it starts with music and you hear something. for me, it comes back to like the first conversation I have an artist, when I listen to music, you know, who does it sound like to me? Where could I imagine hearing this song myself? You know, could I imagine it being in a TV series or an advert and what sort of shows or films or brands come to mind? And if those answers start, you know, come into my head, that tells me it's not if they're going to do something. It's.
more of a when, and then obviously it comes back to what they're doing to get themselves closer to those opportunities. So that for me comes back to what the exciting challenge is. So for me, I started going to a lot more events like your BBC Introducing Lives, little cypher nights, even just little intimate kind of performances. And I was at this time as well, I'm not.
like from a musical background, know, our school that we went to didn't really promote the arts. didn't encourage you to do that. It was almost uncalled to be anything other than a sports person or, you know, just pretty much that, you know, actually. But it was something that, you know, I've never kind of performed, you know, I feel like I can hold a note every now and again. And people started saying to me, like, you know, if was out and about, you know, like if I was singing along to someone, like, oh, you actually got a good voice.
Speaker 2 (47:31)
same.
Speaker 1 (47:49)
So I had my little phase there where I thought, maybe it's my turn to kind of explore that, but it all kind of pieces together. So I was using that more as a, as an outlet, you know, in terms of, you know, I was writing in certain style or some of the artists that I liked, almost kind of like melodic rap. Cool. And again, we're the same as anything. The more you do it, the more you get familiar. But then what I realized was when I was making it, I was kind of overthinking it way too much. You know, I'm almost like, I'm not actually writing this for me at this point.
I'm writing it for like, can I get attention? I've got something to shout about. And then at the same time, it was very clear to me that there's just a lot I don't know about like, okay, the marketing side of music. Yes, you can understand you need good visuals and write, who am I going to use for visual? And at the same time, am I just going to record this at home on my own microphone? And didn't even know that, you know, mixing and mastering were different things. So again, how'd you find the right studio? So, you know, patch some things together, tried it a bit. You know, some people said, yeah, you know, actually this, this sounds good, but.
The rally was, it just felt like it was going to be too much to get what I wanted to do. But even when I was, you know, exploring this, I was going to events and speaking to other artists, learning from them, what are their trials? What are their tribulations? Oh, I should speak to this person. Okay. They've got this event coming up. So for me, something just kind of clicked there. We're like, all right, actually that's the industry, interesting space to be in. You know, it's not a case of just the labels, you know, they are the be all and end all. Actually the independent.
space is quite interesting. It feels underground, it's not, you know, it's something that can be quite prevalent. So, you know, I spoke, I was applying for a few music roles, predominantly at like the labels with the angle of, right, I've got the PR and the marketing aspect. That can be my way in to work with music. ⁓ had like one speculative interview over at Universal and it didn't really amount to anything, not in a negative way. ⁓ just, you know, there was nothing really available at the time.
So my thinking was, okay, well, I'm just going to keep studying, studying, studying, listen to podcasts, watch documentaries, read and understand all the different gaps of the industry. Almost like for myself, if I was to go do this, but then if I was to work with someone else, I can be more of a curator. I can make things less overwhelming for them. And that's where I basically landed in the industry. So I ended up going back to university during the pandemic when everything kind of shut down.
I felt like the world's going to be quiet. This feels like an opportunity to, to catch up if you like, because I also felt that other people with more experience just directly in the music industry, or if they've been producers or around like live events themselves, they are already going to have more of a foothold. So there's an element of, right, I need to be confident in what I'm talking about and come from things from a particular angle. So yeah, I went back to university, studied a music and management degree.
And that was brilliant. You know, I think where a lot of people's lectures and seminars were maybe disrupted. Ours were quite engaging. They made a conscious effort to actually get people in room, even if it was socially distanced. I just found it all fascinating going through like the record industry, how we got to where we are today, looking at the live industry, and then also understanding that music, and I think it was one of my biggest take-homes from any of the lectures was that the music industry isn't about music. It's legal. It's IP.
admin, it's marketing. And when you start realizing that, you realize why it's the music business and the music industry. So for me, that was it as case of, right, well, that's the way to explain it to artists. How do you find artists that maybe haven't quite realized their potential, but you know that they've got the pen tool there because they take your criteria, having that confidence of what, you know, good music criteria looks like. And then the next kind of step is, right, can I just consult with one artist and just see if I can help them out a little?
make their lives a little bit easier and get them closer to where they want to be. What does that look like? And if I can do that once, then I can do that again. So I consulted for a rapper in Leeds called C-Wood and his big thing was doing really well on SoundCloud, but hadn't really done much on Spotify. I thought it was just like really unique in terms of his rapping style, but the Yorkshire twang, was, well, is bipolar.
And for me, I thought that was really interesting that when he was speaking to me based on if he was in one particular mood state versus another, music output was going to be different, but it was always quality. So for me, that was a really exciting person for me to work with who just appreciated just having some free hands-on advice, just to understand what he could be doing differently. So leveling up his socials, just making them more kind of like visually appealing when you land on the page.
So again, a mix of content as well, encouraging to try out different things on like TikTok and short form content. Doing a little bit of soft press, working out, know, can we get like some local press to talk to us? His mantra was very much about, you know, I want my music to speak to people, know, people having a tough time that, you know, struggle with their mental health. He was doing work with Andy's Man Club. I don't know if that's someone you know, but they're like a charitable organization.
⁓ that helped people that don't know how to talk to other guys if they're having, you know, situation, mental health. So for me, like everything he stood for as an artist was particularly, ⁓ impressive, but I just felt like the music quality was there. So we worked for each other a while we got in for A2B and things were coming together nicely. then after a while, ⁓ hadn't spoken too much in a while, it just kind of like naturally hit a good kind of point. ⁓
And, you know, he's reached out to me since, and, you know, he's managed to get his music on, you know, BBC radio. He's had opportunities that come off the back of it. And, you know, he was saying, you know, obviously it's taken a while to get there to those points, but two, three years, however long it is, he appreciates it because he's done it the right way. And that's what I want to see. Not everything comes overnight. Sometimes things take a bit longer in an ideal world. would have had all the financial backing in the world to kind of push things forward there. But my view is that.
We've got him from an A to B and now it's a case of, can I have an infrastructure there that can allow me to do that? So I've obviously been working at SAW for about a year now. And, you know, that allows me to, to do that in terms of have conversations, certain types of artists. We've got the services and tools there that can obviously cover certain boxes. ⁓ but even prior to SAW, I was at Liberty Music PR and
During my time there, I spoke to, I must say, hundreds and hundreds of artists, all at different stages of their careers, all of different qualities, reaching out to artists that I was particularly interested in. Some people reach out to you directly and you'd make that kind of assessment of, okay, maybe this isn't quite right for me, but I can see what you're trying to get to and I can see an audience for it. So who am I to kind of shit on your parade to put it politely? At end of the day, you know.
If you're willing to work and you wanted to take my advice on board, we can help you get to that point. And also you start realizing, you know, can say, I want to work with this genre or this particular artist, but you know, sometimes you just resonate with something, can it in a word as well. So that's basically led me to a point now where, yeah, we've saw, which is born more from like the electronic standpoint. One of the things that really excited me was that they've got different options for different tiers and different budgets and they do what they say they're going to do.
⁓ that starts with, with the founder who is very much like artist first approach, but at the same point, there's exciting challenge there to grow the other kind of multi-genre areas. And that's something that's been happening a lot this year. We're getting a lot more clients that are across R and B or indie or alternative rap. There are obviously other genres that you wouldn't previously have maybe said a kind of like statement genres in your roster, but
Now, you know, let's say Afrobeats or Amapiano, for example, they have more prevalent genres in their own rights. So again, drawing reference to, okay, how many artists we work that make this kind of music. And then if we can see there's a bit of growth there, or if there's not a bit of growth there, I can get more artists in that genre. And that's what's exciting because then that allows you to bring in genre specialists or to bring in artists and clients on board that you know, the campaign managers that we work with are going to be excited about.
So when I'm having a conversation with someone like yourself or someone randomly and they say, Oh, any artists that I know, no, not necessarily, but that's not a bad thing. You know, that's exciting. There are two, three years. I feel like you will know them. And then that also lends to, you know, outside of, of sort to working with artists on a consultancy basis directly where, you know, I can tell them, right, this is what we can do. This is how I think we should do it. Understand the situation where.
It's not quite management because I think management, you can put a lot of buy in there and invest a lot of time and energy for someone to decide the next day. Yeah, I'm not about this and it's not for me. you know, you're not getting that, 10 % arrangement. Whereas for me, if I can be more selective, work with a handful of artists that I generally believe there's a massive, massive opportunity here. Like the ceiling is, it's not just high, like it can go as far as you want. That's exciting because then it's a case of right now I'm
challenging myself to prove that I'm right here. ⁓ because I've seen other artists that I've identified as they're going to do well. I remember listening to them when they were at this point and that point and you've seen them progress. So as a case of like, right, how can I help them get to that point myself? ⁓ so yeah, it's been a, interesting journey, kind of picking and learning from different fields and industries applying, you know, different
skills that I've got from like even PR from studying and even from my personal training. It's a case of like the first thing you do is you have a very simple conversation like, right, what are you looking to achieve? What are your barriers? It's the same framing. You're almost interviewing someone when you come on board and then understanding what can I do for you? And are we on the same page? What would working with each other look like?
Speaker 2 (58:02)
So what is the, if you had to paint a picture of the current state of the Manchester, specifically, where you're based, Manchester music scene, tell me about the Manchester music scene. What is it? What's going on? What's it like? What's the venue structure? Is there a lot of venues? Was there a lot of activity? Is there no activity? I'm curious, what is, I know basically nothing about Manchester, so I'm curious, what's your take on the current local scene going on in Manchester?
Speaker 1 (58:31)
Yeah. So with Manchester, so I've been here, what, maybe two and a bit years now. And obviously being from London myself, you make those direct comparisons. And I think when it comes to music and the UK, a lot of people, would say a lot of people, it really depends, but there can be an over-assumption that London is the be all and end all. London is England. It's the capital. But obviously if you're an artist in London, it could be higher.
harder to break through even if there is maybe access to a larger network and there more venues. I think the beautiful thing for me about Manchester is the first of all, it's got a rich music heritage the same way that somewhere like Liverpool has got the heritage of like the Beatles and various other artists. If you look in recent years as well at cities like ⁓ Leeds, Sheffield, Yorkshire as an area.
And then also like Newcastle, like Newcastle, Sam Fender is probably one of the bigger breakout apps, I would say, in the last kind of five years, particularly on the indie scene. think it's almost shined more of a, yeah, shined more of a light on the fact that indie as a genre can still be commercially viable because you look at what's in the charts now versus what was when you were younger. It's completely different. It was more likely that you'd get like a scouting for girls or, you know, an Arctic monkeys or the killers in your top kind of 10.
⁓ UK charts, whereas now it's probably more like R &B, guess you'd kind of call it pop, more electronic. I think for me, it's interesting seeing a different city and what it's known for previously, the artists that, know, Manchester will always be most commonly associated with, like the Smiths and the Oasis, there's a rich tapestry there. But in terms of, like, know, Rapside, obviously had H as a big breakout artist in most, kind of more recent years.
You've got people like Bugsy Malone where once upon a time they would be considered underground, but are they underground now? Not so much. So with Manchester, you've got a lot of iconic venues, a lot of history there. And I think it's having a massive, massive moment. And I don't think that's just, you know, overnight that's been building where you obviously had Oasis do their, set out tours and that's put a bit of a lens back on on Manchester. You've got a couple of significant venues.
Like the co-op and they're getting significant artists coming to perform here. So in the last kind of few months, you've had your Chris Browns, Drakes, I'm pretty sure Olivia Rodrigo. These kind of notable artists drawing attention, actually you don't just need to go to London to see them more overseas. So you're seeing a lot more traffic into Manchester just from like a tourist perspective and an international attendance. But there are so many.
good venues here just on the more independent side. So you've got like those smaller venues where it might be the first gig that people perform. Like you've got places, stage and radio. ⁓ You've got literally venues for, you know, more DJ events like print works, which are bit more notable. But I think for me, it's a case of there's a bit of a competition with like North and South and it comes down to like sport as well, you know.
The main stadium for football, for example, is Wembley, but the most successful team in the UK has been like Manchester City in recent years or Liverpool. So there's this kind of, okay, well, if there's a lot of success happening up here, why is there not more attention up here? So I think with music, you've got, recently you've had what the MTV EMAs were here for the first time in knows how long.
You've got the Brits, I believe, are moving up to Manchester as well for the first time in decades, which is almost like a win for Manchester versus London or the North versus the South. think, if I'm correct as well, the Mobos will be taking place up in Manchester the first time. So I think people are being increasingly aware that actually there's a lot happening in terms of like the music environment that Manchester has to offer.
there's a lot more support with the artists here. Maybe there's some funds that you probably couldn't get access to in London because it's more competitive. And I think that is still an interesting challenge. If I'm a Manchester-based artist and I'm looking to go onto the next city, how can I make myself have more of a profile in London and create those opportunities? Again, go up the rungs of the ladder if you're considering London to be the next place to conquer. But then vice versa, if London, you're struggling to...
resonate or you're having some success there, why not look at somewhere like Manchester, which is just a two and a half hour train away where there are going to be opportunities there. And there will be an audience that likes your music. The only reason that they've maybe not come across your music is they've not seen that locational targeting. So yeah, think Manchester is having a really exciting moment. You're going to see more artists break out from here.
I think you can see more artists that to perform up here. And it's something that I encourage to some of the artists that I speak to because it's, crazy that it's only a few hours away, but yeah, I've never actually thought of that or, know, actually would like to perform outside London, but such as life, things get busy. get caught in an echo chamber and you don't think to actually places like Manchester, places like Leeds, there might be some audiences worth targeting there. And then obviously the more that you've got that national coverage.
Okay. Now there might be another conversation because if I can sell out tickets in this, ⁓ in this particular location, this particular location, that's basically saying I can sell out tickets anywhere. So how do I now find the right booking agent that, okay, we're to put you on a bigger venue in these spaces, or we're going to put you on the warmup, ⁓ act for a particular artist that's more headliner because we know that you fit them in the right sound and we know that people come to see you specifically as well.
So yeah, I think that's the way I look at it. There's a lot happening in terms of investment. There's a lot happening in terms of accessibility and also, know, the biggest station in the UK is like the BBC network. You know, they're literally down the road from me here at Media City. ⁓ yeah, there's a lot of tastemakers in and around Manchester and also the creative economy here. It's very much like a content creator hub. There's a lot of fashion brands here.
There's a lot of people making their way that are quite disruptive when it comes to ⁓ fashion, styling, photography, videography. And obviously if you're in a city that's a little bit more inexpensive, probably catching up quite quickly. ⁓ But you've got access to a creative economy, younger audience or younger kind of creatives too. People can really make a statement here. And then obviously that can open up doors, not just in London and across the UK.
but also on an international scale. yeah, I think it's just a really kind of exciting place where you can have some great collaborations, some great disruptors. And, you know, it's probably been slept on for a little while as a place, Manchester, but I don't think it's the case now. think everyone's aware that there's a lot happening here and, you know, you want to kind of tap into that.
Speaker 2 (1:05:53)
Cool, that's cool. okay, so I'm curious, you look out, let's look out over five, 10 years, what are you excited about? What gets you excited about the future of your role in music? What do you, what personally are you like, this is exciting to me, is it artist development, is it the tools, is it AI? What really lights you up when you look into the future? What does Chris want to do moving forward here?
Speaker 1 (1:06:19)
yeah, for me it's independent music. think that the labels that exist, whether they are major, independent, however they're structured, international, they serve a purpose. And I believe that, you know, if you're actually looking for what they offer in terms of full commitment, they're going to push you on a scale that, you you wouldn't be able to do by yourself or with your existing team, no problem. That then becomes my challenge as well. You know, how do I get you closer to being considered?
by these types of labels. I think a good example of that would be someone like Olivia Dean, who you can't really avoid her at the moment. But you've seen comments of hers where she's performed gigs where there's been like two people there. She's had to perform in restaurants. But the talent's always been there. The numbers have been there. I think like Dive, for example, I discovered years ago, and she's still not someone that I...
because obviously I follow a lot of independent artists, is that someone that maybe could have engaged with a lot more and gone to more of her gigs? Because if I'm being honest, I haven't, but it doesn't surprise me when I see that she's absolutely everywhere now and her style of writing and that she's selling out shows and then you're seeing the merchandise that comes with that. You can see the journey that's happened to get to that point. ⁓ So for me, I think that's what's exciting. Finding the next waves of artists that you can see that talent and then you
Also having the confidence in terms of, right, I feel like I could be a person that gets someone to that point. That for me is, is, is interesting. So I think consultancy management consultancy is the, the area that particularly excites me. taking on certain aspects of the tasks that we're looking at, ⁓ action with certain strategies, ⁓ with a select group of artists to begin with. ⁓ and just showing that there's, you know, success stories there.
The more you do that, the more you can look at other artists and bring that on board. So being selective with quality and having that balance with quantity. And then ideally moving to position where, okay, I can have a bit more skin in the game there. You know, if I really want to back an artist, I want to be able to actually back an artist. You know, if they've got barriers there when it comes to ⁓ finance that they can put into there, what creative ways or what...
avenues can we look at to source that revenue so it can be invested so that there's no excuse there. It's just the case of the qualities there. We've got the strategy. We know what we want to achieve, who we want to connect with. So yeah, I want to be working with some artists and getting them from A to B and helping them achieve what they want to achieve and not with, you know, low level thinking. You know, I want people to dream and, you know, have the biggest aspirations because if you can have that mentality of
It's not if I can make it, it's when. Then I think that's a perfect person to work with. Naturally, you know, you're conscious of how AI will influence aspects of the industry, aspects of your own role and things you do in a day to day. And I think as is the case of any new technology, you can't be afraid of it. You've got to see, how can that fit into what I'm doing to work smarter, to open new opportunities, to be more efficient.
So for me, know, AI is a good source of inspiration if you know how to actually engage with it in terms of ⁓ ideation or, you know, just formatting certain documents or outlining, you know, strategies in a more coherent way in a quicker time period. So you can be more agile and lean. But then also beyond that, you know, I think it goes back to what I was saying about the brand roots and the brand story too. I like the idea of.
You know, these artists, not just like succeeding in terms of more people listen to their music and, you know, they perform more live. I like the idea of artist worlds. You've got such a strong brand and you've got such a core community that there's an actual world and ecosystem that you're bringing people into. And that world that you're bringing people into is what you live and breathe. It's just you anyhow. So for example, there's a, artist that I was speaking to recently, ⁓ called Isabella and for me ticks all the boxes in terms of.
strong social following that maybe hasn't quite converted when these two, has songs that perform well from a streaming perspective, solid look and feel, not just in terms of like still images, brand, styling, but also in types of the content puts out. And for me, it's an artist where I'm like, why are you not bigger? And that for me is exciting because everything there is consistent and you know, she's able to produce music consistently. So all that's needed is someone to be like that sounding board, to be that navigator.
to be a therapist at times to remind you, you're actually good at what you do. Don't get lost. You're going to have ups and downs. And again, that's the same as what you would be doing with your label, eco structure there or, you know, economy that you've got there. But I think, yeah, for me, it's a case of just having artists that you're confident in that confidence transfers into them. And you're looking at how can we build towards something big? How can we build something exciting where you're not worried about.
Am I going to be able to fund my next project? You're living comfortably. You're doing the things that you want to do in terms of exploring exciting places, working with cool brands. And I think the way that it comes back to with my consultancy, which is like called the nineties, 90 for me is just a really, really interesting number in terms of how can I do 90 % of the work? And then all I need from you is that 10 % buy-in. If you do the final 10%, I'm telling you what to, how to do it.
who we should be working with. I've curated the network for you. I've curated what I think is needed in terms of contacts. If you can do that 10%, then we're in a good position because you trust my judgment and I trust you to do that. That's the exchange. As well with 90, if we're talking about the monetized aspect, 90 % of income, probably think, just goes to anyone and everyone within the industry. Maybe for 90 % spend, you're getting 10 % back.
So how do we get to a position where we flip that, you know, if every 10 % you spend, you'll get 90 % back, you know, is that from sync deals, is that from whatever it might be? So those are kind of part of the ethos there. And then also the other kind of two areas where I've landed on, you know, 90 is 90 days, break things down into a bite-size chunk. You know, let's not think about the end goal too much here. Obviously it's great to have, but what does the next 90 days look like? What do we need to do?
Speaker 2 (1:12:54)
D.
Speaker 1 (1:12:58)
then we can break that down in terms of what do we need to do in the first 30 days to get there. And I think when you can digest things there, makes things feel less overwhelmed, which goes back to when I was trying to make music myself, I would have been way too overwhelmed. I wouldn't have been able to do that consistency. So my job is, you know, I don't want people having that what if thinking because that's what I think. What if I started that bit earlier? What if I did actually stick it out?
If I can reduce that what if with these artists, they can live up to their potential, which is definitely there because I would not be speaking to you if I didn't think it was there. I think you've got to be someone that's offender transparent. And if I wouldn't vibe with your music, it's going to affect how we work because I'm not really fully invested. I'm not going to be passionate and excited. Exactly. And I think you do need an emotional investment because music can be, it's very emotional thing.
Speaker 2 (1:13:45)
in an emotionally invested.
Speaker 1 (1:13:52)
And I know people will say you shouldn't be emotionally invested, you know, it's business at the end of the day, that goes against my ethos. think you do need to be a bit, and you need to be working with someone that, you know, you feel like you're a good fit with as well in terms of like personality types and knowing where the gaps are, what you can do for them, what you can't do for them and what they need from you, vice versa. Being able to challenge, you create a system where if they're not necessarily on the same page with what you're suggesting, I've got no problem with that at all. That is the whole point of, you know,
you being able to speak and if you think there's a better alternative, let's explore that. You know, cause your win is my win, vice versa. And then, yeah, I think as well, the final point in the nineties is I think that's just an era. mean, I'm a nineties baby, was 1996. I think that's just an era where technology obviously just started speeding up at an exponential rate when it comes to music in particular. And I also just think...
things were maybe a bit simpler there when it came to music too. You had like your MTVs, you had the kind of nostalgic aspects of things like, ⁓ things like mixtapes and kind of bootleg music. You asked maybe to do a lot less, but obviously the barriers were higher. And I do think that when you're talking about how music promotion is now where it's a lot of short form content, I still feel like the...
If I close my eyes and I think of certain songs and the music videos that went in there, it's a very powerful image to recall. I don't close my eyes and think of, that TikTok video I saw for seven seconds. I think of the video for Kanye West. I think of your videos for your Missy Elliott. So even the videos for ⁓ The Killers, they are very, very vivid to me. And that's what I want to see is.
people get back to Nero where you're actually excited about music, it all doesn't just sound the same, you're making music for the sake of. ⁓ So that's why I go back to worlds, creating these immersive worlds for these different artists ⁓ and just seeing how far you can take it.
Speaker 2 (1:15:55)
It's beautiful, man. know, yesterday we were just having a lazy day here in my house and I have two little kids and my wife and I, we were just sitting in the living room and we just got a new TV and she's on YouTube just scrolling. She was playing music videos of the Beaches, or Beaches, the girl band. And I think they only had two videos or like one music video. And I was like, damn it, this is it. You know, and cause we were in a, we were in a slow...
calm moment where we were down to just take in long form content. And I'm thinking like that because I work in music. And my wife's like, I thought you don't like music videos. I'm like, yeah, I know. I was just saying that the music video is dead. But in this moment, this is a different context. I actually wish there was a really, because I'm learning a lot about the artist from this one video. And it taught me so I was like, shit, I got really curious. And I thought, man, it doesn't have to be dead.
Like I enjoy this. I enjoy this sort of quality experience, this depth of an experience that I'm getting from this artist. And I wish I had more of something to sink my teeth into with that person. ⁓ I don't know, maybe I keep thinking that maybe there is a shift that's occurring at least in some of us where we are like going back to the, I just posted this on my Instagram the other night. was like, I was listening to ⁓ New Radicals, ⁓ You Get What You Give.
Speaker 1 (1:17:21)
Yeah, I remember the video for that and know, technically, you know, I'd probably been younger and I know they were in a shopping center, like the one, two, one on the counting and everything. So yeah, even that I can remember so vividly, you know.
Speaker 2 (1:17:34)
And I think to myself, like, kind of miss, I miss some of the oases among some of these songs too. It's like, I miss some of the like four or five minute songs. think I have, maybe it's just cause I'm getting older too, but it's like, have the attention span or I want to have the attention span to kind of take in some of these longer things versus getting caught up in this just like quick tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. I'm getting kind of bored with how quick everything is. And I kind of.
looking for something longer term again. I don't know if it's just me. Not the same. Kind of talking about world creations too. And it's like, kind of think I missed those things.
Speaker 1 (1:18:10)
Oh yeah, I mean, think I miss like what Top of the Pops, for example, you know, that was around for decades over here, but you know, some of the artists that would all of a sudden just shoot up to number one out of nowhere. And you'd have like, here's the breakdown to like Who's Top and then they'd have the live performance. So like, I remember when it was that Akon on there and he was singing like, top for the first time. And you're like, you know, I've heard this and now I hear it live. And it just, that's a platform moment. And it was amazing. You know, there were artists that
Maybe you wouldn't even like Maroon 5. still remember when, you know, they were kind of charting, um, what is it? The songs about Jane era and, know, like this love would come on there, you know, and then they'd be performing maybe on top of a box a few weeks later based on the chart performance increase in, um, you know, just think it was, uh, there's something relaxing about just having that on even in the background, or if you did just want to, you know, stay in, you know, you get ingrained into that.
And I think it goes to the same with like when I used to come back from that school, remember like, you know, you'd have like your top 10 songs of the week, or you'd have like top 10 new music, you know, and ⁓ again, it just felt like part of a nice ritual. And because you're not just, you know, sat behind a screen like scrolling, doom scrolling, you know, you could still converse with people. So there's an element of your, you know, talking and not just kind of isolated when these things are on, but you're still kind of like dipping in and out of it. And there's that familiarity.
Um, and you get an idea of, you know, who the artist is, know, someone's quite creative with it. Um, so yeah, for me, I definitely think things go in cycles. It's the same with fashion, 20 year cycles, same way that people will, you know, go back to vinyl as they have recently. Yeah. So a massive, massive reboost of an era that went quiet for a long, time, but people like collecting and people like the sound, even if it hasn't got
you know, the crackle, the maybe an old, old vinyl that someone will have, is still a different listening experience. And I think that's what it comes back down to is how can we get to a point where there's more experiences there that aren't just, listened to the song for seven seconds in a, in a TikTok video and I might listen to it on Spotify. You know, how can I go beyond that? And that's where it comes back to those, those worlds. So I do think that the long format visuals, yes, they can cost a lot to produce, but
I think every now and again, they're also probably some of the funnest things that you can pull together if you can get your creative direction. And even what you think of like dance choreography, know, people like seeing not just dance choreography on the spot in a living room, but if you've got it where it's like moving through like a full location to another location, like jungle, for example, immense for that kind of thing. ⁓ And if you see that videos about Tyler, for example, when she's at award shows and she's moving between stage to back rooms, things like that.
You can't quite capture that on TikTok or Instagram in short form content. ⁓ I just think, yeah, you also miss out on a different level of connection with like a, with a song or music artists too, when you've got like a really powerful visual. So I think one of the videos that comes to mind is like Kanye West, Runaway, for example, where it's a full length video, but the production on it is beautiful. And then everything else just hits that a little bit more where you get those sort of musical chills.
but then you also appreciate an artist's creativity, how their mind works. You almost see their mind coming to life. yeah, I definitely think there's something to be spoken for going back to that. And I do think things do just go in cycles. Magazines will shut down and then they'll open up as a digital and then they might decide actually we're going to relaunch. ⁓ But obviously this just happens at such a fast pace, such as the innovation of technology and how it kind of gets adopted and emerges.
Speaker 2 (1:21:59)
Absolutely
dude, absolutely will. Dude, thank you so much. I know it's, what is it? It's getting, we're getting into the five o'clock hour over there. So thank you. I appreciate you taking time to do this. ⁓
Speaker 1 (1:22:13)
Glad to share
your story. No, it's my pleasure and you know, as is the way of working in the music industry. Five o'clock for everyone else isn't necessarily five o'clock for yourself. You when you're working with people in different countries as well, you know, lot of people based in like the States or Australia. But I guess that's kind of the beauty of it. I think that's the other final thing I would say is the beauty of working in the music industry is you get to meet so many people on such a personal level.
And just through one call, you feel like you really understand who they are. And it's just exciting just seeing what's going on in different markets that you wouldn't know anything about. know, if you asked me, know, tri- what Triple J was like five years ago, I'd have said, it's just that YouTube channel where people do really good covers, right? Like a version. then you realize actually in Australia, that's the main radio station that has a massive influence on an artist's career. And then obviously you're speaking to Australian artists and finding out, right. So if you've.
what you need to do in Australia or you've not had that breakthrough there. What do we do now? How do we get your music over to this country, to the States, to other places? So yeah, two artists are ever going to be the same. The challenge is never going to be the same. But that's exciting. And I think just working in the industry, I've got to discover and listen to a lot of music that maybe I probably wouldn't have before. And maybe some people have just never heard of them and will never listen to themselves. But
great for me because I've got something that feels more personal and curated to me as well. yeah, it's been a pleasure obviously being able to chat and I'm sure we'll chat and have massive extended conversations in the future too.
Speaker 2 (1:24:00)
you
Hey, thank you for listening to the show this week. Visit everybodyelsepodcast.com to learn more about this show, including a list of past guests and previous episodes. You can find me on Instagram at Wes Luttrell, where I post my own work, including activities related to this show. And you can also find the show on Instagram at everybody else podcast. This show is self-produced and hosted by me, Wes Luttrell, with artwork by Ethan Douglas and music by Jim Neuer.
I'm grateful that you spent a little time this week listening to our podcast and learning more about the invisible people out dedicating their lives to making music happy. Back again soon.
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