Bread, Roses, & Metaphors - Leading Through Language

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Aloha!
Today, we are honored to have Karin Hurt and David Dye, two renowned experts in leadership and workplace culture, joining us. Together, they’ve helped countless organizations navigate the complexities of modern work environments, from remote and hybrid teams to the challenges of fostering diverse and inclusive workplaces. Drawing from their vast experience and research, they’ve co-authored the book, “Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict.”

Their book offers over 300 practical communication tactics designed to de-escalate conflicts, rebuild trust, and cultivate collaboration. With insights backed by their World Workplace Conflict and Collaboration Survey, Karin and David equip readers with real-world tools to address workplace challenges before they escalate. We’re excited to dive into their work and explore how these strategies can make a profound impact in today’s ever-evolving workplace.

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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the True Life Podcast. I hope everybody is having a beautiful day. I hope that the birds are singing. I hope that the wind is at your back. I have with me today... Two incredible guests, and it affects everything that you've been through in your life. Who hasn't been through a life where they found some conflict, not only in their life, but in their workplace? So today, we are honored to have Karen Hurt and David Dye, two renowned experts in leadership and workplace culture. joining us. Together, they've helped countless organizations navigate the complexities of modern work environments with remote and hybrid teams to the challenges of fostering diverse and inclusive workplaces. Drawing from their vast experience and research, they've co-authored the book, Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict. Their book offers over three hundred practical communication tactics designed to de-escalate conflicts, rebuild trust and cultivate collaboration. with insights backed by their World Workplace Conflict and Collaboration Survey, Karen and David equip readers with real-world tools to address workplace challenges before they escalate. We're excited to dive into their work and explore how these strategies can make a profound impact in today's ever-evolving workplace. Karen and David, thank you so much for being here today. I am so excited about this. I just wanna jump into this question. If that's okay, we can just hit this ground running. I know you guys are used to it. Okay. Okay, so here we go. Conflict often reveals the deeper fractures within an organization's culture. In a world driven by performance metrics and rapid change, how do you balance the need for immediate conflict resolution with addressing the underlying systematic issues that create conflict in the first place? Karen, I thought I'd drop that off to you to begin with. You know, this is actually one of our favorite questions. Love it. Because so often when we think about conflict, we think we're having a conflict with another human being, and it feels incredibly personal. And it was interesting, as we were writing the book, we actually had an opportunity to talk to Ralph Kelman, I asked him if this is okay, but I said, can I call you the grandfather of workplace conflict research? Because he has been doing it for like, forty years. And one of his main premises is, so often we're talking about the people, but it is the systems. And if you have systems that are causing people to compete, if you are stat-ranking people, if you are rewarding the wrong toxic, courage-crushing behaviors, No matter how many practical, powerful phrases you give the human beings in your organization, they're going to have conflict. So to your point, I'm so glad you started here because you got to start both ways, right? You've got, as executives, you've got to be looking very carefully at the unintended consequences of the structures and systems that you have in place and equipping people to have the interpersonal relationships and communication skills that they need. David, maybe you could add on to that. Maybe you could fill in some background on that. Yeah, I'd love to. The other thing that I would add to what Karen said is that As an individual in an organization, when you get good at having these conversations using the phrases that we provide, you will help resolve the interpersonal and identify the systemic so that you can then start working on solving those things. Let me give you a very practical example. You know, let's say, George, you and I are having a conflict about expectations and we get to talk and it's like, you know, well, what will a successful outcome do for you? That's a powerful phrase. And you say, well, you know, our boss asked us for this. So that's what I'm trying to do. And I say, well, now, wait a minute. I thought our boss asked for this. And we're like, OK, hang on. What's going on? Well, I understood that differently. How about we both go to our boss together and let's have that conversation and sort that out? It may be that the boss did give us two different expectations because of some systemic issue, or it may be that we just understood it differently. Either way, we start to resolve those things. Then if there's a bigger issue, we can start to resolve that. So we can't start tackling the system issues as individuals until we can talk about them and have the language to use. And that's part of what the powerful phrases help us do. And that's why actually, as we Start the book, we get into the foundations, but then the first couple of chapters, they're all about exactly these kinds of issues. What do you do when you're in these kinds of situations where the organization, the systems, the structure you're dealing with are actually the root cause of some of the conflicts? I love that you're bringing up like the kind of systems theory here. On some level, for most of us that have worked at a Fortune five hundred company, there almost seems like there's us in them. You know what I mean by that? Like one set of the top top brass is us and then there's them. We're going to talk to us this way and we're going to talk to them this way. And that message can get really confusing. And I think people both know what side of the fence they're on. What are some phrases or am I just am I being too wild here? Have you noticed that in the work you've been doing and the research you've been doing? Well, let me take it even a step further here, and then I'll let David jump in. But one of the things that I find about the us and them is that at the very executive level, and I was an executive at Verizon for twenty years, right? So I was in the, I guess, the us bit. But, you know, one of the things that we find working with our clients and executive teams is that There is a feeling of, well, as a senior executive, I can talk to my direct report teams in a way that doesn't follow any of the rules about how I would talk to people at the front line. Right. So behind closed doors, I can shout F-bombs and tell you your idea is stupid and all these things, because that's why you get paid the big bucks. Well, what we hear from people in those rooms is like, I still am a human being and I, you know, I, and maybe I am getting paid the big bucks, but it is not worth it. And I, I deserve to be treated with respect. I deserve to, you know, ensure my ideas are heard. And so all that psychological safety that we, that we really try so hard to build great cultures really starts with how do you treat your direct report teams? So I had to say that before David jumps in with all the others. I love it. Well said. That really answers your question. Yeah, I'm glad. And you're humanizing so many people on the bottom. Look at the people on the top, like us and them. I'm really thankful that you were able to say, hey, here's what's going on at the top. We're probably treated worse or the same as you feel down here. Not that there's up or down. But David, go ahead and jump in here. What do you got? You know, when we did the research for our previous book, Courageous Cultures, we – One of the dynamics we found that's just fascinating, this goes to our common shared humanity, but all the misunderstanding that creeps in is you got senior leaders who are like, why won't my team innovate? Why won't they solve problems? Why can't they see that thing that's right there and fix it? And you've got frontline folks in that same, very same organization. We would go and talk to each other time and time again. The frontline folks are going, nobody wants my ideas. They're stuck in their way of thinking. Nothing's going to change around here. And so in the same organization, you've got two different groups of people who are looking at each other going, you don't understand. And it's true. You don't understand. We don't understand. And there is a need for communication. But in the end, people are wanting the same things, but it's how to get there. And sometimes there's a lack of understanding about the hurdles that have to be jumped through on either side. So a senior leader might not recognize how difficult it is for a frontline person to deal with conflicting expectations. And we've coached many CEOs and senior leaders who are like, why can't they just figure it out? Well, because it's not easy to figure out when you're not clear about what you actually want. And then on the other direction, you're looking at the frontline person looking at the senior leader going, Well, why can't they just do X? And it's like, well, there are seventeen reasons that make that way more complicated than you might think. And multiple stakeholders and multiple things that have to be satisfied. And if you're in their shoes, you'd probably be vacillating, too. So that creating that shared understanding, awareness and some of that is transparency. It's communication. It's using these phrases to have the discussions. And I go back to, you know, when we're talking about how to solve these things, there's four dimensions of collaboration. One is connection. Do we know one another as human beings? So just creating that kind of understanding and awareness of one another. We're all human beings and everybody's doing the best they can for the most part. So creating that shared awareness. And then clarity is the second one. Do we have a shared understanding of what success looks like, of what successful outcomes do, of what our next steps are and how to actually do all that? If we are lacking those two things, really everything else is very, very difficult. And then there's two more dimensions we can get into. But if we just start with those foundations and invest some communication effort in those, everything gets easier. So are you suggesting that we build a good foundation, David? Is that what we need? We need a good foundation here based on language? I am a huge believer in good foundations and structural systems. Yes. You caught me out, George. And building a strong foundation is more challenging now for so many organizations. I can't tell you how many times our phone rings and it says, well... We need to do this culture work or we need to do this training program. We need to do this executive meeting. But we've got eight countries that we need to coordinate time zones on. And, you know, that's not just for our event, right? That's the life that they're living every single day. And we have one senior leader who called and said, there is only one hour in the day that I can get my entire team on a call. The guys in India are still having to show up at nine o'clock at night. So how do you build human? These are the bigger questions that we need to think when we talk about infrastructure is even more challenging than it used to be. And, you know, when you think about the medium is the message, which is what Marshall McLuhan said in the nineteen sixties, it's even more true now. Because we are now defaulting because of these asynchronous environments, we're defaulting to low bandwidth channels. So we're slacking people about really important things. We're firing people over Zoom, right? It is creating more conflict. And if we don't really take a step back and say, how do we get the systems to support our organization so that we can make it easier for people to communicate at the level of bandwidth that they need to communicate? Karen, how dare you bring up my favorite philosopher? Don't even make me start talking about digital feudalism over here, all right? Marshall McLuhan was so ahead of his time, and he foresaw so many ways in which we interpret language. And I think that that's a big part of what your book is doing on a grander scale, besides just helping people and building foundations. I think what we're moving into, and like I said, I think your book and your strategy are a big part of this, is moving into meaningful language. communication, which leads me to this next question, which is true communication isn't just about what we say, but what we don't say. So how does your book navigate the unspoken tensions, power dynamics, and emotional undertones in workplace conflict? You talked about different cultures and different states, but are there some maybe universals that speak to the power of meaningful dialogue in these critical conversations? Yeah, and I love, can you say those three dynamics again? You said the hidden tensions of what were those three dynamics, the power differentials, and then what else? It's the unspoken tensions, the power dynamics, and the emotional undertones. Yeah. So, so much of our meaningful conversation involves surfacing those things and creating an environment. And when I say an environment, I mean just a micro environment. Right now, the two of us, the three of us are talking and we're creating a little micro environment. where is it okay for me to share this thing? And so much of what does that is the way that we're asking the question, if we're even asking the question. So a connection, we call these GOATs, greatest of all time, powerful phrases. So we have twelve of them that we're like, they're useful in so many different scenarios. So, you know, somebody sharing something and they're obviously they've got some heat about it there. And I'm starting to find myself getting a little defensive, like, well, don't they understand my perspective? So forth. If I can take a moment and take responsibility for that micro environment of that conversation and use a powerful phrase to help create connection, like, you know, what I'm hearing is that you're really frustrated about this. Do I have that right? And just acknowledge the emotion that I'm picking up. And if they go, yeah, I am. I said, okay, well then let me go to another one. Tell me more. And just those three words, tell me more, communicate. I genuinely want to hear and said in a sincere way. Now, if I say, now tell me more, that's a whole different ballgame, right? But if I say, tell me more. All right. And do that until they've got it out. Like, okay, so here's what I hear you saying. Do I have that right? And I check for understanding and establish clarity. And then if I'm still not clear on what they actually need, and even then I want to check and make sure I've got it. I can ask back to the question I mentioned earlier. Hey, what would a successful outcome here do for you? And we're very intentional with that language. This is a effort to surface the hidden tension that you're talking about and the hidden power dynamics and all those things that are under the surface. Because if you and I are, let's say we're starting a project together, And we're immediately getting some tension and like, okay, well, timeout. Well, what is this successful outcome on this project going to do for you? And you say, you know what, David, I've been working hard. I haven't seen my kids in ages. I have got to get off on time so I can go see my family. And I'm like, awesome. I'm so glad you shared that. And I say, you know what a successful outcome for me would do on this project is I really need visibility with our senior leaders. I'm gunning for a promotion the next year or two, and I've got to have some visibility on some of these kinds of projects to help that happen. What would it do for me? I would love if I can get that kind of visibility. So maybe I hold the mic in a presentation or I can take the lead on some of those things. Now that we know what we both actually need to do out of this thing, it's the same project, but very different needs. We've surfaced those. Now we can start constructing solutions that potentially can help with all of that. But until we have that conversation, all that remains underneath the surface. And so that's just taking an example of the hidden tensions that can exist. Same thing with power dynamics. You're talking to your boss, your boss has a power over your job, literally, that's a real thing. But your boss is also a human being with goals they need to satisfy, things they need to achieve, and generally are working towards those. So your boss asks you to do something and you're overwhelmed. You're at the, like, I just, I can't, I don't know where I can possibly draw any more time or effort from. You can have that conversation in a meaningful way by starting with, hey, you know what, boss, I'm really committed to our success here, a connection phrase. And here are the other three projects that I know are also super important for us that I've got these deadlines on, you know, I gotta have all these turned in by Monday. And this thing that you just asked to do, totally get it, see why it matters, here's why I got it. And I don't know how I can do all of those. Here's what I'm thinking. My suggestion would be, what if we were to shift this, adjust this, resource this differently, whatever your proposed solution is, and then ask, you know, how's that strike you? What do you think? What are your thoughts? How's this look from your perspective? So yes, there's a power dynamic, but you're still talking to a human being. And so to get those elements into the conversation, you've done it in a really rational way. You're on their side, you're pulling for their success too, while you're trying to navigate your own overwhelm. So that's another example of how we can surface those and address those in a way that works for both parties. Yeah, and in our research, we asked people to think about a conflict that they'd had in the past and the advice they'd give to their former self if they were faced with that conflict again. And then the number one thing is the people said they would stay calm. But the second was, I wish I had spoken up or spoken up sooner. And so when you have something that you need to say and you're not saying it, we share three questions. Why does what you have to say matter? What's at stake if you stay silent and how will you feel when you've been heard? And that's what I really encourage your listeners to think about. If you are sitting here listening to this and say, yeah, but I'm scared. My guess is in the future, you will wish you had spoken up. So ask yourself those three questions. That's such great advice. After hearing just a short exchange that we've had together, I can't help but think about the age demographics in the workplace. On some level, the conversations that I hear from people are like, these boomers don't get it, man. I'm not you. I wasn't born in that area. These ideas are dumb. These are unrealistic expectations. I'm not doing it. On some level, it seems like if you read any of the big books from the early two thousands, it was all, hey, scare your employees, threaten them, make them more productive. Productivity is the holy grail of profit. And now all of a sudden we're starting to see the echoes of maybe we should have a chief philosophy officer. Maybe we should be talking about this. So I know you guys have probably know tons of other authors and you've done tons of research. To what extent is this big change that we're seeing in communication and awareness part of a generational shift? Does anyone want to take that one, David? we I'm sure we both will uh I love it it's funny we have been asked this question pretty much almost every day by somebody our clients yesterday literally yesterday with a with a a person in our program so you know and and somebody who he said he came up and during a break and said you know I'm I'm not the next generation in, I'm just ahead of them. So I'm gonna put him at late twenties, somewhere in there. He said, but I'm really not understanding exactly what you just said with some of the youngest folks entering the workforce going, yeah, that doesn't make any sense to me. Why would I do that? And so he said, do you have any ideas why some of this stuff is happening or why this work ethic thing, all this kind of stuff? And we do, and there are a number of different reasons and the pandemic is certainly part of it. That was a major global, And it messed up a lot of things, including some of those dynamics where we'd learn that. And so as people are being socialized in school and university and so forth, there's a lot of grace as we navigated that tough time. And that becomes the norm. And then how do you... get to a system of like a more discipline about like timeliness or things like that or communication strategies or all of those sorts of things. And so those have to be taught. And it's one of the things that I think leaders, managers or people in the workforce forget is that everyone has to learn the culture of the thing that they're joining. There's no such thing as a default culture that exists for everyone. Everybody's coming in with their own experiences, understanding, awareness. Karen and I, we're a married couple. We work together. We own our business together. And we have different understandings. So we have to have those conversations. Back to communication, as you said, it is the answer to all of this. If we don't have the conversations, we can't possibly help people to navigate and get there and learn from them. What is that value that they're bringing that seems strange to you, perhaps, if you have somebody in your workforce who's saying, yeah, I don't believe it. Okay, tell me more. Explain that. Is there some value there that we might learn from benefit? And then you can share your perspective too. And here's why this does matter. And here's the consequence of this. And here's what it's costing us when, oh, okay. And we create understanding. So we're connecting the what to the why in those instances. But if we don't create the platform for that conversation, never happens. Here's my public service announcement to moms and dads. So we have a we have a nineteen year old. We have a couple of kids, but we are just nineteen. And I have been hanging out with the moms of the other people of that generation. Right. And I am watching. Over managing, they're over protecting their micro. And so these kids. And they're like, what the world? Like, how do I get my work done on time when my mother isn't reminding me, when my mother isn't coming in and handing me my schedule for the week, right? So as a, you know, we also as parents have a responsibility, even if the public school system is saying, yeah, you can turn in everything late. It doesn't matter. Everybody, you know, we're just going to love you and you're great no matter what. Even if those messages are happening, what is happening in your home to teach people how to be effective communicators, how to do what they say they're going to do, how to recognize the contributions of other people and say thank you and all of that common sense that I think with our older kids, they were getting it in other ways. But it's really more important now than ever that parents step up to create some of those basics for their kids. Yeah, I love that. It makes me think about just the foundation of conflict resolution, not only at work, but in some ways, work has usurped family and friendship. We find our friends at work. Sometimes we find the person we fall in love with with a lot of proximity, right? Our relationships are at work. And if we don't have the very foundation at home of how to solve problems or Hey, I don't like this, or there's some overbearingness happening. We're going to bring that with us into the workplace. And then you start thinking about projection and, you know, how many fights with your boss are really fights with your dad or fights with your mom, you know, and vice versa. If you're, maybe it's a fight with your kid you're having, you know, it's kind of interesting. How do we navigate that particular slippery slope? And, and how many of those fights that we're having with our boss or coworker actually fights with ourself? I love it. Well said. They're in our own head. And that is one of the reasons having the conversation is so important. But another element of this that goes into it is the aspect of digital communication and digital natives and so forth. And so you see a lot of the workforce now that is uncomfortable picking up the phone or having a conversation and doesn't know how to do conflict because any conflict you're having It's online and it's in a nasty, you know, one liner on a chat and then you just go away and you just ghost it. And so that whole dynamic, it's something all of us as human beings, we're all responsible for helping us get there. And if you're listening, you're managing, you're on a team, so getting the skills and using a book like Powerful Phrases for Dealing with Workplace Conflict to help you get those skills. is vital to your success but it's also vital to the success of the people around you and so that I think that investing in that and being conscious about it is where it all starts um that's just the beginning of the conversation for any of us let me ask you this with sometimes when you realize the words that you're using you can begin to see a pattern and the two of you have a very unique perspective because you've done all this research over the years and you've put everything into this book do you see patterns emerging with the shifting language throughout the years and if so what if you were to put on your speculative glasses what do you see continuing to change with the language patterns moving forward do you see business changing in the way that the language is changing I think there's not enough curiosity. I think that one of the things that we are really seeing, and this has a lot to do with social media, is that we are getting fed points of view that match our points of view. And it is very hard for people to leave that behind. And then they come to work and they're like, no, I'm right. And let me tell you what I'm right. And we're, you know, on social media, we even let people talk in ways that we would never actually talk to a human being. But all that anger is coming up. And we say you can't be furious and curious at the same time. And if you can really show up and say, I am genuinely interested. I think I don't agree with you. I think my idea is better. But if you can calm down and say, I am really curious how this looks from your perspective. What do you suggest we should do next? And when we say that to people, sometimes people are like, well, what if they don't ask what it looks like from my perspective? Well, you can still tell them. You can still say, okay, I hear you. What I heard you say is this. And let me tell you what it looks like from my perspective. And if we can have more of those conversations about what's happening in society, about what is happening at work, about our ideas to improve the business, Everything will be better. But I'm worried that we're backsliding away from curiosity and everyone is so focused on being clear and being heard themselves. And part of the language that, you know, I think, Georgia, you talk about, you know, there are words like toxic that when you address this in the book is that it's very easy to label something that you don't like as toxic and not to take away. It might be. It very well could be. I'm not saying it's not. But there's a danger for us, for any of us, if we immediately label something as toxic and just write it off and I'm not going to listen here or engage because we shut ourself off from learning. Many of the things that are labeled toxic are not. They're just different ways of being and different perspectives and lack of understanding. And with some communication, the other person might learn about why their perspective is potentially damaging, or I might learn how I was misunderstanding the whole thing from the beginning, or I might learn a whole different perspective that broadens my horizons and makes me more effective. So, you know, that's one, just as you're talking about language, that's one shift I think we need to be aware of. Another, I think, very positive shift, and yet we still need to figure out how to manage it is, You know, over time, and there's still a long way to go on this, but mental health in general has been becoming less and less stigmatized. But figuring out how to navigate mental health and treat it like any other kind of health, we still have a long way to go in the workplace on that. You know, if I break my leg and I need accommodation with some crutches and a cast, it's easy for people to wrap their head around that. We get it. We have experience. It more visibly suits all of our existing frames of reference. We don't have that yet with mental health challenges. And what kind of accommodation is appropriate and where do we need to make a lot? And when is it also okay to say, I know that you're wrestling right now and we also really need to hit this deadline. What can I do to help and how can we get there? Both of those conversations are appropriate, but in different circumstances. So there's a lot of training and equipping that we still need as we navigate the shift into a broader awareness and appreciation. I love it. As I'm listening to the both of you speak, I'm writing down some notes and I hear words like shift, frames, dimensions, perspective, imagery. We've already brought up Marshall McLuhan. I can't help but be excited about the way in which we're moving from labels into imagery. I think that's a big part of coming to terms with how we feel. We're painting pictures in the minds of the people. And that's a real meaningful dialogue right there. When I can sit down and reference a book or I can tell you about this new dimension of thinking and I can help us hold an image in our minds together, now we can actually work on something because we're not talking past each other. We're not side monologuing. Was this something that you guys have been doing consciously, trying to bring about this new awareness with imagery and metaphors? How did that get into your lexicon here? So this is funny that you say this because one of our favorite exercises to do with teens is is to help them envision their desired future and then break that down into really practical habits. So you start with the imagery and then you get really practical and tactical. So I'll start with the imagery part, David, and then you can tell them how we do it with the Synergy Stack and the tactics. But one of the easiest ways to do this, and everybody can do this, it's like it costs zero dollars to do it. You give people two pieces of paper and you say on one piece of paper, draw a picture of the team as you see it today. And so you're immediately putting, getting people into people's creative minds. And then, you know, so you're looking for a metaphor. What is our team like today? Inevitably, someone draws a house on fire. Like every single time there's a house on fire. It's so crazy. When we were working with National Institutes of Health, somebody drew a slime mold. I'm still trying to figure that one out. And then draw on the second piece of paper, the team as you would like it to be. And then, so more metaphor. And then you have everyone go around and share their two images and you collect the themes. It doesn't take as long as you think it will be, right? Like you could do this exercise in twenty minutes. And it is amazing the consistency of the metaphors. So, you know, one person drew a burning house. Another person drew somebody going through down Whitewater Rapids with people falling out of the boat and hanging on. But the same thing is happening. Like, it does not feel calm around here. It does not feel safe around here. We've got to get this, you know, we need to get clarity. And so you do that. And then from there, we have what we... the way we do this with habits is what we call our synergy stack system, but we break it down to what are the specific habits that you would need to do to achieve that vision. And if you go back to the, you mentioned dimensions earlier, we use the word really intentionally, these four dimensions of collaboration, because if something's not working on your team or in your relationship with another person, there are four dimensions to pay attention to. We already mentioned connection and clarity. Karen mentioned curiosity. And the fourth one is commitment. And that's not willpower. That's do we have a shared agreement and a specific thing that we're accountable to? And then are we holding one another accountable to it? So. If there are problems, there's a breakdown in one or more of those dimensions. There's a breakdown in trust because of lack of connection. There's a breakdown in knowing why we're doing something, and that's the clarity issue. There's a breakdown in we're not asking the questions to look around corners and see what's going on or find alternate ways. That's a breakdown in curiosity. And then we're not celebrating or practicing accountability, and that's a breakdown in commitment. We take each of those dimensions. And as a team, you look at what are if you were to choose one habit out of all four of those dimensions, if you choose one habit that's going to make a difference for your team to help you get from that current picture to your ideal picture, what would it be? And it is amazing how often teams change. will come to consensus on that. Not just agreement, but their consensus in terms of, yeah, that's the one habit. If we can invest in doing that. And like just a practical example, a team that was like, we need to take more risks and be more creative. And the way that they decided to take action on that was every week, once a week, we're going to start a team meeting by having somebody talk about an idea, something they did that didn't work. So we're gonna celebrate healthy failure. They did it for the right reasons, all the criteria measured up, but it didn't work out. What'd they learn from that? How'd they grow from it? What did it do for their career? And then once a month, they're having a senior leader come and share the same thing from their career, something they did that didn't work. So that's just a very practical way that one team said, what we need to do is practice more risk-taking. Well, how are we gonna do that? We're gonna start celebrating ideas that don't work and figure out how to do that ourselves. Yeah, and when we talk about habits, we're talking about things that are really specific that you can make measurable action plans around things. Right. Yeah. So I take our commitments seriously and proactively talk about obstacles that might derail our deliverables. Well, the truth that if the team picks this habit. OK, so how are we going to do that? I acknowledge wins, progress and learning. OK, if we're going to do that tactically, how are we going to do that? Not just that we should acknowledge each other's wins, but how are we specifically going to do that? So it's like it's a three step process. You start with a vision. Then you move to the, what are the habits? And then you move to the, how are we going to actually do this plan? And, you know, George, as you asked this question that we're answering here, you asked about the intentionality for us. Why do we talk about dimensions, ways of thinking, all of this kind of stuff. And, and, I don't think we've been asked that that way before. As you promised, go ahead. I told you. I think he's asked questions. Most of these questions nobody's asked us before. And here is why I think that that question is so important. And this is decades now in terms of our own senior leadership, leadership throughout our careers, as well as then running the leadership development management and teamwork training consulting firm. Most people have good intentions. Almost nobody is showing up to work going, how can I tick off the people? How can I really irritate? How can I throw a wrench in the monkey? Nobody's showing up that way for the most part. I know there's one percent somewhere out there, but the majority of people aren't. What's getting in the way? Well, it's those misunderstandings that we're not on the same page. It's that. If I knew what to do and why it mattered and I had the skill to do it, I probably would if it aligns with my talents, abilities, and skills. Okay, so how do we make that happen? And Karen and I both, and this is the fun part for us, I worked in the human service industry for decades. Karen was in the cell phone industry and wireless and retail and all the different dimensions, huge sales teams that she led, human resource organizations, so forth. But despite being in such different industries, we found that over the course of our careers, what worked for people were to take exactly these concepts that we're talking about and then break them down to a habit level so people know the what, the why, the how. and that we have a way to talk about it. We're always gonna disagree. We should be disagreeing. If we care about the way of the future, if we care about where we're going, if we care about trying to solve meaningful problems, you and I are gonna have different perspectives. That's good. Do we have the way to have the conversation so that we get a decision that's better than what any one of us would have done? That's what it means to be in a team. That's what it works all about. And so giving people the skills to do that and reduce some of that tension and the destructive stuff that comes when we don't have the skills or we're worried about consequences that we don't need to worry about if we do it well, that's what gets us up in the morning. I love it. It's really well said. And I can't help but think that conflict is the catalyst for creativity. However, one question that's probably on the mind of everybody in a C-suite is like, hey, this is great. How do I measure creativity? How do you manage what you can't measure? How do I... David, Karen, how do I measure creativity? I got a deadline. I got so much money coming in. You're talking about creativity. How do I measure that? Well, it's interesting. So it's funny how you're coming back to our other book, which is Courageous Cultures, How to Build Teens into Micro-Innovators, Problem Solvers, and Customer Advocates. And I actually have a TEDx on this too, which is how do you get not just ideas, because That's why many executives will shy away from this. Like I don't need, I don't need any more ideas. I got plenty of ideas. I got plenty of work to do. What I need is practical, but remarkable usable ideas. And so, you know, to, how do you measure it? Like, first I got to back into how do you do it? Okay. And the first thing is really, do you, how do you really create clarity about where you need a great idea? Do people really understand your strategic direction or, all the way through your organization? Do they understand what a good idea will do? And from there, then how do you give people the very practical tools and techniques to bring you better ideas? And we have a process for that. But how do you measure it? I'd say you measure creativity by how many ideas are you actually implementing and what are the business impact of those ideas? And we have a process that we do with teams. And I'll just give you a quick example. We were doing work with Nestle, and we had done some long-term culture work with them. But then we had a day that was an innovation day. And they came with four strategic initiatives that they really wanted a great idea. These were areas that the executive team didn't already feel like they had it all figured out. And they wanted they really were open to ideas. That's the first thing. And then they went through and they used our courageous cultures tools to help people think critically and reframe the problem and then pitch an idea. So like think Shark Tank only friendlier to the executive team. They came up in just half a day. They came up with really brilliant ideas. And the executive team is going, yep, we can do that. So now how do you measure the impact that that had? And because of proprietary information, I'm going to go into what those ideas were, but they were operational ideas that could really make a difference in their business. I love it. It's really well said. I wish I knew the information you're talking about. But anyways, I can totally see it. I see the way in which when you get the people in the right atmosphere on the same page with shared goals and shared sacrifice, all of a sudden you have a soil that's ready to plant fertile seeds and grow the next level of it right there. Yeah. You know, it's it's fascinating to me. We're kind of coming up close to this. I'm going to walk you guys right up to that. Fifty minute mark because this conversation is super fun to me. You know, I live right here in the Bay Area and I work. I talk to a lot of really fascinating individuals in the startup community, which is its own kind of animal versus this big multinational corporation. But I'm curious. And this is a question kind of geared towards my listeners. You know, I see a lot of people talking about psychedelics in the world. It's almost like psychedelics with a new trust fall. Have you guys seen any of this thing happen in here? ah, it's a beautiful one, right? It's true. There's a parallel there. No, I have not. I mean, I have familiarity with some friends or different acquaintances who have done that. Well, we have that one friend who psychedelics destroyed her life. Yeah, she took her a year and a half to recover. It was not a good scene, but at any rate, no, not in the workplace. I haven't had, I wouldn't say. Karen, how about you? Mm-mm. Yeah, it's just interesting. I've seen with so much problem with mental health, like it seems to me that maybe that is another avenue. Are there new ideas on the horizon to help corporations deal with mental health? That's kind of why I bring it up. It seems like that is an issue and it seems like it correlates to some of the phrases in the book. You know, it's interesting, the solutions themselves and the treatment and so forth, I think we're still in the early awareness phase of this. Well said. You know, when we think about mental health, there's still as much progress as we have made, there's still so much stigma around it. And some, and this is, you know, maybe a strength of the newer generation, less there. Yeah. Um, uh, and, and some, some instances, sometimes it might be a badge of, uh, of honor. Like I have a mental illness, like, so it's like, well, okay. But you know, it's like, we wouldn't celebrate. I have diabetes. It's, or I have, I have a broken leg, you know, it wouldn't, it's just a thing. Right. And so somewhere we'll calibrate all that, but. over time. But in the calibration of that, I think there's the training and equipping I mentioned earlier of what is an appropriate, supportive, human-centered response to the whole range of things that people might be dealing with. And we know the stats. I mean, the statistics on either severe or mild mental health challenges are that you walk into any random room, the majority of people in that room have something going on. If it's not with them, it's with a loved one. And so having that awareness of how we help people navigate that in a constructive, productive way, we're still learning. And some organizations are farther ahead of the curve on that one than others. So I wouldn't venture to say, oh, here's all the solutions, here's all the emerging science. It's really still in the earlier stages of the learning and implementation. So as we're coming up, getting ready to land the plane here, I think we have enough time for each one to kind of sum up. What is it that each one of you would like to, like if I pick up this book or other people pick up this book or an institution wants to reach out to you for consulting, like what is it that you want people to learn from this book? What's the main takeaway? So the most important thing is have the courage to have the conversation because on the other side of that conversation, and we see this again and again, when people are implementing these strategies, when they're using the phrases, they come back to and say, oh, I should have done that three months ago. I have wasted too much time worrying about this conversation. And now I just used your words and I had the conversation and things are better now. So that is the very first thing that I would say. It's good advice. And I will illustrate that, I think, with something that happened very early in my career. I was a year and a half in. I was a frontline leader at a team of three people. And the CEO was putting on this marketing event and asked me and my team to be involved. So I had a key role to play. I needed to lead my team in it. And I rebelled because I thought that what he was doing lacked integrity. I didn't like the way it was organized. I didn't like it. He was telling people that were showing up to it. And I felt really, I can't do this in good conscience, but I didn't say anything because CEO power dynamic that you were mentioning earlier. Okay. And. I stewed about it for three, four days. I didn't sleep. I wasn't sleeping well. I was headaches, everything else like this is not good. And finally, on the fourth day, after three days of stewing about it, I didn't use any of the powerful phrases that we're recommending. Didn't know them too early in my career. And instead, I just popped my cork and I lost. I said, look, this lacks integrity. I can't be a part of it. You know, no, I don't want to do this. And I really expected for him to hand me a box and say, well, sorry, you feel that way. There's the door. which he could have done, but that's not what he did. Instead, he said, David, I don't see it that way. I don't think it lacks integrity at all, but I don't want you to violate your conscience. So my question for you, and then he asked the question I should have thought about from the beginning if I was farther along, more mature. He said, David, how can we do, we need to do this. How can we do this in a way that works for you and your integrity? And it took me like ten seconds to come up with an easy answer. It wasn't hard to figure out, but I hadn't even thought about it because all that time I was having the argument with him in my head instead of actually having a meaningful conversation with the human being. And it was such a, I'm so glad that he didn't just hand me a box, that he took the time to say, hey, what's going on? How can we do this? Because it taught me the value of saying something. And so when Karen says have the conversation, part of what that looks like for me is the awareness that if nothing changes, if I don't say anything, if nothing changes, nothing will change. And that ultimately in these moments, when I have something to say, when you have something to say, and there's a value at stake, there's the future of your team, there's a customer issue, there's an employee experience, whatever it is, when you have something to say, your silence is selfish at that point because you're depriving the other people of benefiting from your perspective, You're depriving yourself of potentially learning from somebody else like I did in this situation. And you're depriving the people you're serving from a better outcome. Now, there is an effective, elegant, productive way to say it that gives you the best chance of being heard and learning in the process, even if you don't get the exact outcome you wanted. And that's what the powerful phrases are all about. So I'd encourage you, use the powerful phrases. Don't do what I did, but do speak up. Silence is selfish. That is a beautiful way to put that. Well done. I feel like fifty minutes went by like five minutes. I didn't even ask my whole three questions, and I normally have like ten lined up, and so you're going to have to come back, and maybe we can bring more voices into the tent and have a deeper, more robust discussion. And it's really well done. I think that the book, people should go out and check it out. If you're within the sound of my voice, go down to the show notes. Check out the book. It doesn't seem to be just about work conflict. It seems to be about conflict in all relationships. Thank you both. for putting the time, the work and the effort into this and going about trying to make the world a little bit better place. I think it's beautiful. Karen, I'll give you the last word. Is there anything else you want to say before we say? I just want to say thank you so very much for having us. It's been an absolute delight. You have asked very provocative and meaningful questions, which always makes it super fun. Well, I'm very thankful for both of your time. And again, I'm thankful for the book. And it's available now at all bookstores? Everywhere. Yep. Powerful phrases. Powerful phrases for dealing with workplace conflict. And we, if you're listening to the podcast, Karen and I narrate the audible version. So if you like audio books, you can hear us out and get all those. And we're told that the jokes work better in that version as well. So you might enjoy that. Okay, well, hang on briefly afterwards. But to everybody within the sound of my voice, whether you're listening to us live, whether it's tomorrow or ten years from now, whether you're an employee, whether you're a CEO, do yourself a favor. Check out the book and learn some powerful phrases for conflict at work. That's all we got for today, ladies and gentlemen. Have a beautiful day. Aloha.