Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Thin Veil is a show for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of Palestine—and what Palestine can reveal about the systems shaping our world. Hosted by musician/activist and anti-Zionist Jew Ezra Lipp, who was raised in a Zionist ecosystem and is now, as always, on a continuing journey of learning and unlearning.
Through long-form conversations with historians, journalists, artists, activists, and people with lived experience, the show explores Palestine not in isolation, but as a window into questions of power, history, identity, media, ideology, resistance, and the stories we inherit about the world around us.
[00:00:00] Coming up on The Thin Veil
Mo Hamzeh: when October 7th happened, I was just like, I of all people know what is about to happen to us. we all knew.that's why immediately on October 8th, we all as a diaspora came out to the streets to be like, "We know what's about to happen. They're going to genocide our people."
nobody heard us then. They thought we were crazy,
I had been speaking about this for a long time, but post-October 7th, I was like: I am going all in. I will not stop, and I'm going to do it in a way that may rub people the [00:00:30] wrong way. I'm going in in a very risky situation where I'm an Arab Muslim that is about to go on camera and just lay it all out on the table with every ounce of emotion that I have
at first my dad, who's a traditionalist, was like: "Hey, relax. You might be viewed as, this angry Arab type and I was like: I don't care.
That's it. I'm done. I'm done being polite. I respect my elders to the extreme level of what they've been doing to pave the way, to where I am. But in a sense,they tried it the polite way. They tried to navigate it through the system, that be, but I'm [00:01:00] done with that world.
Mo Hamzeh: Well, hello and welcome back to The Thin Veil. I am your host, Ezra Lipp. Thank you so much for being here. The Thin Veil is a show lifting the veil on understanding around Palestine. if you're a first-time listener, welcome. If you're a returning listener, welcome back. I would love it if you left a rating [00:01:30] and a review for the show wherever you're listening to this on any podcast platform.
Like, subscribe and hit the notification bell on YouTube so you never miss a video. And if you wanna support the show, you can very graciously sign up to become a monthly supporter on patreon.com/thethinveilpod or leave a one-time tip or donation on Ko-fi. This show takes a tremendous amount of effort, and I would love your support if [00:02:00] you value this work.
secondly, how are you? let me know in the comments. This is heavy stuff that we talk about every week. I struggle. my mental health struggles. I, I make no secret about that. I, experience, um, depression, frustration, anger, despair, and, um, I also, have, the opposite feelings, almost on a daily basis.
somebody who is deeply engaged in, [00:02:30] learning and keeping up with some of the most horrible things in the world, like we discuss on this show, um, it is very normal to struggle with your mental health. So, let me know how you're doing, and, however you're doing, it's okay. it's okay.
I'll say that, and I, I extend the same sort of grace and kindness to myself, or I try to quick housekeeping. On some recent episodes, you might have seen some of the collaborations I've done with [00:03:00] Esther Azar or heard me speak about how, we planned for Esther to become a more regular collaborator with the show.
And I just wanna say, if you've been following along, that actually Esther and I, have decided to not team up as full-time collaborators on The Thin Veil show. we have nothing but, love and respect for each other. We just decided it wasn't totally the right fit to, join forces as far as full-time [00:03:30] collaborators on this show.
I'm-- I would be very surprised if you didn't see Esther and I do something more in the future together. It's all good between us, but, uh, we're not gonna be doing, like, having Esther come on as a regular, collaborator like we had previously announced. So sorry about that.
You're stuck with just me, and my other wonderful guests that I have every week, so hopefully, hopefully that's okay. speaking of guests, my guest today is an outspoken [00:04:00] activist, advocate, content creator, author of children's books, and somebody very dedicated to the cause of Palestinian liberation.
you might have seen his, many videos online, heard him speak before, he is one of the most censored people online when it comes to Palestine. He is on his forty-fifth account at the time of recording that Meta continuously suspends his accounts because [00:04:30] they don't want to, uh, hear what he has to say.
But I think he has a lot of, great things to say. And of course, my guest today is Mo Hamseh, Moath Hamseh. And I will wrap this up, but just to orient you to where the conversation starts,I had-- was sharing a little with Mo about my own journey, my evolution As far as how my understanding of Palestine evolved after October [00:05:00] 7th from knowing very little about the issue and having it been obscured to me growing up in a Zionist ecosystem to where I am today.
So you will hear his response to me sharing some of my s- story, and then we will go from there. Without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with the one and only Mo Hamzeh.
Ezra Lipp: Well, welcome to the other side. Thank you
Mo Hamzeh: it's weird [00:05:30] because it feels like freeing, but it's also so difficult because of the way you're raised and who you're connected with still, and your family members and all that. So I completely, respect the anti-Zionist Jewish world, honestly, because it's one of the most difficult things to break out of, and it-- because you've been so accustomed to that bubble for your entire lives, and it's been almost force-fed to you regularly, to an extreme amount, almost an exhaustive amount, and what just makes it very difficult to break out of, to be [00:06:00] quite honest.
And I
I mean, obviously I have tons of, uh, anti-Zionist Jews that are really close friends of mine,
And I don't want you to say that it's, something you feel ashamed of with the whole, the whole post-October 7th, uh, learning,
if you wanna be very frank about it, majority of the people I know in this community and have become very close friends of mine, are post-October 7th learners in a way, and have been self-information seekers. It's beautiful to watch as an, as a Palestinian, because now I feel like we're being heard or feel like, I feel like people are [00:06:30] doing, the work they need to do to re-acclimate themselves into the real world, as I say, when they've been living in the matrix,of the lies and deception and propaganda. so this is something that I think is a freeing moment for all of us. for me as a Palestinian, it's freeing to s- witness people of all walks of life walk through that door, for the first time and actually see things for what they are, especially the anti-Zionist Jews. because I like to describe that door as a, a [00:07:00] one-way door where you, there's no way you're gonna walk back into it, because once you see the real, there's no way.
That door is locked forever.
yeah, welcome to the other side is what I'll say.
Ezra Lipp: thank, you. For sure.
I would love to make some space to, um, have you talk about your background a little bit, how it relates, to your identities being Palestinian and your evolution there.
I'll just preface it in one way, which is,the theme, the title of this show is "The Thin Veil," and that refers to, veils being lifted, veils of [00:07:30] understanding being lifted. and I feel like as anti-Zionist Jews, that is an experience that many of us have had, when the scales fall from our eyes around Palestine.
But I feel like there's often these, deepening understanding moments, veils lifting for lots of different people. And I know you've had some identity changes in how you relate, in your background.
does this concept of the thin veil resonate for you at all?
Mo Hamzeh: 100%. more ways than one actually. so just to ground, of like who I am. So I go by [00:08:00] Moath Hamzah, which is my real name, Moath Hamzah, but it's Mohams, on social media apparently. So that was one of my first, handles, which is long gone because I have been one of the most censored human beings on the planet, when it comes to Meta.
So I'm on my literal 45th account. I've, opened 44, and they've all been banned for no reason. Uh, well, for the reason where they don't want me to speak up, obviously. but yeah, I think that just, describes who I am, as a Palestinian, because we are a resilient people. But, I am [00:08:30] Palestinian through and through, demi-Falastini 100%. my father is from, uh, Al-Quds, so basically Ein Karem, which is just outside Al-Quds, proper Jerusalem, and my mother's from Tubas, Palestine. So they, as my, uh, entire ancestry and family ended up uprooting, and being displaced,forcibly displaced in the Nakba of 1948, where they predominantly, most of my family moved,to J- Amman, Jordan, in that area. So everything I knew as a child, was [00:09:00] Jordan, honestly, because that's where I would visit every single summer w- to see my entire family. so I'd never really touched Palestine or seen Palestine as a, in my entire childhood into early adulthood and into adulthood. I never saw, Palestine. that was a defining thing in my life as a child, where I've described in the past, I lived in a very Heavily Zionist, town actually.
when I moved, my, my father moved from Amman, Jordan to, work at Johns Hopkins, it- that's in Baltimore, [00:09:30] Maryland, and I was-- And I ended up being born in Baltimore, Maryland, and, love the city, love the state. I'm a born and bred Maryland boy. but the town that we lived in, outside of Baltimore, Pikesville, was very heavily Zionist and, I went to school there as a young child, and,I was bullied s- extensively whenever I said I was Palestinian, as a child.
So at any time I-- they ask me where I'm from, I say Palestinian, they're like, "Oh, that's not a real country. that, that country doesn't exist. What's your name? Mohammed?" When [00:10:00] clearly that's not my real name. they associate that name with obviously terrorism and,demonization of Islam, and it was just a lot, real- really a lot for a child to take in.
and that really scarred me obviously to a, a massive extent, growing up, where I got to the point where I started to default into this like, "All right, my family all lives in Jordan, so if someone asks me where I'm from now, I'll just say Jordan." Right? It's a safe answer. I'm not gonna get shit for it. and then like going into the w- job [00:10:30] world as a young adult, and g- getting jobs and get-- going into interviews, scared to say it then even I was just like, "Oh, I'm from Jordan." Why are people even asking me this on an interview where I'm from culturally and all of that? so like that's the type of mentality I grew up with, and it was so sick to me, especially now as an adult, that it's so absurdly, uh, outspoken and massively proud, to be Palestinian. looking back, it's really sad. it's very-- it gives me a sick feeling in my stomach that I even had to go through that as [00:11:00] a child. But the only, like, little silver lining is that, it truly made me who I am today, where I'm going all in,neck deep into all of this, almost in a completely unapologetic level, where t- it made me who I am today.
and I think a lot of Palestinians that, that grew up as children here in the belly of the beast, as we say in the US, have experienced something similar to my story. and it's just, very freeing in a way to be where we are today, where we are 10 toes down Palestinian, nobody can mess [00:11:30] with us type style mentality, because we should have always been that proud to be Palestinian.
we should have never been shamed, to, or been ashamed in any way, shape, or form, and I can't even, bring myself to use that word because there's no shame in being Palestinian. It's just you've been accustomed to such horrible treatment, even in, the Western societies, to make it feel like you can't say that you're Palestinian, So
I was actually able to visit Palestine, as an adult for the first time [00:12:00] ever in September of 2023, which was a month prior to October 7th. So that, in a sense, was like an, The way I view things in life is like,almost destiny for me, right?
And, everything happens for a reason type mentality, where I was able to go experience the out-of-body body experience of Palestine and, walk the s- the towns where my family is from and stand in front of my great-grandfather's home that looks structurally the exact same as the photos that I've seen, and we have the keys to that home, as we say, for [00:12:30] the right of return and all of that. and knowing that my great-grandfather's home and grandfather's home, is now occupied by an Israeli settler and is, the entire town is completely occupied. And that's the range of emotions I had experienced while being there. It's like every range of emotion, and I'm not even, exaggerating, because I was so angry at watching this, home that I'm literally standing in front of on the steps o- of that home. So angry, but, also so happy, [00:13:00] and it was such a beautiful town, lush greenery everywhere. I was like, "Man, this is where I'm from." So it was, like, so incredibly, like- cathartic and, beautiful for me, but also like feeling an, a sense of anger there was so crazy and, feeling it all at once. But then on top of that, the layer on top of that was that I felt massive guilt, because who am I as a, a, a American l- sub 40-year-old, American that can travel with an American passport and see these sites and be on my land [00:13:30] when my,aunts and uncles who are significantly older than me have never seen it once and can't see it for the rest of their lives.
That's so sad to me, and I had to call them immediately like to say, "I'm so sorry. I don't know even know why I'm here. I don't wanna send you anything like photos or what 'cause like this is so s- like gross that you can't see what I see." And, they said, "No, send me, send us everything. You're our eyes and ears there now."
And like that, that made me genuinely break down into tears, and it was a beautiful experience for me, to just be there [00:14:00] for my family and showcase like what it looks like to them, as I was their eyes and ears. So that was like just a beautiful moment for me, which gave me every ounce of energy I needed coming back to fight for my people in a way.
And when October 7th happened, I was just like, I know, I of all people know what is about to happen to us. we all knew. that's why immediately on October 8th, we all as a diaspora came out to the streets to be like, "We know what's about to happen. They're going to genocide [00:14:30] our people." Like it's gonna happen, and this is their m- their way of doing it.
This is their way of giving carte blanche to do so, right? So that's where nobody heard us then. We-- They thought we were crazy, right? And here we are three years later in a world of genocide and, Where it's all, like, it seems too late even. it's just so gross to say that, but, Gaza is now n- reduced to nothing, where they're still being killed to this day.
I'm literally watching videos before this podcast of children. Children are still getting [00:15:00] killed. I saw many children getting killed as of the past two days. so this is a gross world that we're living in. It's really-- it's a dark world that we're living in. and I keep saying the only bright spot is that everyone knows, everyone sees, everyone, understands because of the work that we've been doing.
I personally made it my mission, post-October 7th. I had been speaking about this for a long time, but post-October 7th, I was like: I am going all in. I will not stop, and I'm going to do it in a way that may rub people the wrong way. I'm [00:15:30] going in in a very risky situation where I'm an Arab Muslim that is about to go on camera and just lay it all out on the table with every ounce of emotion that I have in me, because I, one, couldn't take it anymore what I was witnessing, and two, I just had so much pent-up anger about this that I just had to let it out.
And that's where I think a lot of the world resonated in a crazy way, because at first my dad, who's a traditionalist, was like: "Hey, b- relax. You might be viewed as, this angry Arab [00:16:00] type situation," which is, like, co- comes with the territory of our, in, in, in our world. and I was like: I don't care.
That's it. I'm done. I'm done being polite. I respect everything. I respect my elders to the extreme level of what they've been doing to pave the way, to where I am. But in a sense,they tried it the polite way. They tried it the, to navigate it through the system, that be, but I'm done with that world.
I cannot be polit- polite about it, and I refuse to beat around the bush. I'm going to be very direct from here on out. And that's the mentality I took, [00:16:30] which resonated really in- insanely, I didn't realize it would resonate, and I have people reaching out to me from all walks of life to the point where I actually conversed with a Zionist who was insanely, intuitive enough to ask me questions in-- through DM on Instagram to be like, "Hey man, I've been watching your content. I'm not sure I agree with all of it, but I have actual questions for you."
where I was like, I could have taken the route of like, "Get the hell off my, out of my DMs." But no, I was like, "Wait a second. let me bite [00:17:00] here." And I had very substantive, conversations with him, for months, honestly, just like breaking everything down for him in the smallest minutia with facts and facts, to the point where now he has become one of my good friends that has sent me letters,telling me about his kids and, asking about my kids, and, he's so anti-Zionist now, and that was just from me, one person being able to flip that, right?
So that was a little bit of hope I had in some of that. sometimes I lose that hope [00:17:30] with, like, the Zionists of the current day because me, I feel like we're, that we're way too far gone for you to not know anymore, and I don't have as much grace as I did before. but this is a, it was a story for me that I think, just resonated really well in terms of, m- the way I've operated.
I operate based on facts. I don't care how angry I may seem on camera, but I make sure I'm deeply rooted in the facts when I put it out on camera so that it's very difficult to refute it. But I also also say that please do not use me as the singular source of information [00:18:00] because I say what I wanna say so that you are able to go and educate yourself through the plethora of research that's out there. so that's what, that's my shtick and that's what I've been doing for the past three years.
Ezra Lipp: Thank you for sharing all that. that's an incredible story about, the Zionists that you were able to get through to. And I will say, I'm guessing that hasn't been the majority of your
experience
Mo Hamzeh: No, it's definitely not, I [00:18:30] mean, especially nowadays. Nowadays it's, it's very o- out in the open what the Zionists are, Because they've taken a mentality where, we're just gonna be very open about it, which is why I think in general, when you see a Zionist of today, they're all in cahoots and literally walking the same line hand in hand with all of the white supremacists of our world, the MAGA heads that are all anti-Arab, anti-Muslim, let's like make, Like currently their new narrative is, "Let's make Muslim, [00:19:00] Muslims, the demons, and let's associate Islam with, socialism and communism," and this is like the new rhetoric that they're trying to push right now. because even the, in the Israeli polls saying "What can we do to turn perception back to favor Israel?"
The number one answer by a mile of the entire Israeli society was to villainize Islam, to increase Islamophobia. That was their number one answer, and that's precisely what we're seeing nowadays with evangelical [00:19:30] Zionists and Christians, to like rah-rah the,you know, villainization of Muslims.
Like this is their new rhetoric. I can't take any more of it, honestly. I've been, in a mentality where if you're a Zionist that comes up to me to speak the same rhetoric and scripted, do you condemn the resistance? Do you, think Israel has a right to exist? Israel has a right to defend itself?" I, n- at this point in time, I don't give you the time of day or any breathing room, so that's it for me.
Ezra Lipp: The worlds I come from,the kind of [00:20:00] Zionists that you're describingaligning with some of the worst ideologies out there. I know that is a very real thing that is happening, and there are people, Jewish people, Christian people, that are aligning with those movements that are disgusting. I think part of the cognitive dissonance that I deal with every day is I come from more of the world of what you would call like liberal Zionists, people that, think they are [00:20:30] aligned or, or genuinely good faith,feel like they're aligned with social justice, feel like they're aligned with, racial equity, yet still identify as Zionists and kind of dismiss all the problems of Zionism as Zionism gone wrong. And I don't buy into that. I think they are ignoring of the greater structural inequalities that are built into the system. But,for instance, I know many people that would absolutely reject [00:21:00] this idea of, being aligned with white supremacists,I know that the system of Zionism is aligned with white supremacy, but I guess I'm wondering how to communicate with the people that don't see themselves aligned to these nefarious actors, but yet still are helping, lift up the system that is indeed aligned with that.
Mo Hamzeh: Yeah, I mean, I totally get it.so what I would say to them is, one, you should read the actual text coming from Theodor Herzl, first and foremost on what Zionism is and what it stands for, [00:21:30] because it's deeply rooted in supremacy and, that ideology in reality. But the-- to be quite honest, the liberal Zionists are, to me, the most dangerous,in the, this whole fight because they're the ones that are like behind the scenes doing things that are like, "Oh, I fight for this, I fight for that, I fight for this." But The reality is they are selective human beings. Like there's, they're selective in their activism, they're selective in their social justice, they're selective in all of this. Like when I call out feminists for who they are when they don't speak up for [00:22:00] the women of Palestine, to pregnant women getting killed left and right, to mothers losing their babies left and right, to Israel purposely targeting a IVF clinic, to make sure they eradicate all the babies that they have been fighting to, have, for years.
where are you guys at feminists? that is, the selective activism is the most disgusting to me and the most dangerous to me because you m- you make it out to be y- that you're some sort of, you know, humane person, but when it comes to Palestinians, that all gets thrown out the window.
is [00:22:30] the, the ideology that you're basically, accepting by saying, "I am a Zionist," saying you're a Zionist is directly correlated to the state of Israel now. We know this, that i- that is what it is, by their own definition. So when people are like, "Oh my God,you're, you guys are, hating on all the Jewish people," because, even like the ADL, I think it's their statistic, a majority of Jewish people in the, this world, especially Western society, are Zionists and are pro-Israel.
when they say stuff like that, they're propagating some [00:23:00] sort of language to say we're all anti-Jewish. No. You have hijacked the Jewish religion straight up. You have hijacked Judaism, because we know, as Palestinians that fight for the cause truly in this movement, know that proper Palestine had Jewish, Christian, and Muslim people living in harmony and peace together for a long, long, long time,
to the point where the Jewish families would look after the Palestinian children and the Palestinian families would look after the Jewish children. That is the world that we used to live in. [00:23:30] And then ever since Zionism entered our land, that's when it all changed, and that's what Zionism is to me. So when you say you're a liberal Zionist, you still are an inhumane piece of shit to me. and I have to be very direct about this because you have now said to me out loud that some people matter more than others,
those are the liberal Zionists that jump into the Miss Rachel comments. Like who are you to shit all over Miss Rachel for literally saying, "I am against children [00:24:00] being killed"? That, and you hop on that to say, "Where are you, uh, uh, to talk about the Sudanese children being killed? Why aren't you talking about them as much as the Palestinians?"
What are you saying right now? Like seriously, what are you saying? and to the point where they put her on a list of top 10 anti-Semites, Miss Rachel, this
is what Zionism is now, and it's literally out in the open what Zionism is. So this is the fact that you even have to, Ezra, talk to these people to try to convince them on the liberal side of things to be like, "What the [00:24:30] hell are you guys fighting for right now?"
Like, why are you even arguing this at this point? It baffles me that you can actually have any semblance of humanity about other causes and see what we've seen on live stream that is happening to Palestinians and still say, "Nah, I'm a Zionist. I still, uh, I'm still pro-Israel." No. Then, then that, you're not human to me.
You are worse than the open Zionist to me because you are just a liar that is actually propagating our systems, that are infiltrating our politics to make it seem like you are a human [00:25:00] being, when in reality, all you're doing is bringing us further and further down based off of your liberal Zionism. So I have no place, of, grace at this point in time for the liberal Zionists that still don't see what's going, what, what's up, because I know for a fact they're smart enough to know what's up. They just selectively do not care enough to help the Palestinians.
Ezra Lipp: I hear all that and it's incredibly frustrating. and I guess the way I see it is [00:25:30] still... I feel like there's just lots of elements of denial going on,I've had a friend say to me, "Oh, well, no, I'm a Zionist, I'm just peaceful.
I'm a peaceful Zionist," is what he said. and I should just mention, our relationship is pretty strained right now. we haven't been talking in a while, as an aside. But, there is this cognitive dissonance of him being like,no.
You don't understand. I hate Netanyahu, and, I, I [00:26:00] think the, the war is, gone above and beyond." And, but at the end of the day, they still can't let go of this piece of "Yeah, But we still need to have a Jewish state, just without all the war and the apartheid."
although he wouldn't say the word apartheid. I just feel like he can't make the connection of, You can't have a Jewish state without all this other things." this is why we have this situation. It is built into it. So, I don't expect you to have any sort of grace as you, [00:26:30] in your words for that attitude anymore, because it is clearly showing a lack of reflection. because at the end of the day, I've said to him, if you just really looked into this, you would see that, that I am right. You would see that, And,you're holding a position that can't be justified." And he's like, "Well, okay. Well, you know what? But I'm not gonna do that.
I don't have time to look into the history of Zionism." so I guess at the end of the day...
Mo Hamzeh: it. Yeah.
Ezra Lipp: right. Well, and at the end of the day, I am s- really struggling.
Mo Hamzeh: let me make this e- I'm j- let me make [00:27:00] this easier 'cause I
wanna also follow it up because when I say I personally don't have the grace, doesn't mean I'm writing you off from like learning. it's more personally I've exerted
enough
energy. My, sm- I've essentially relinquished that job to the Jewish, community now that is truly anti-Zionist.
you guys,
to have those conversations with the community because o- on my end, I personally have no, energy or breath left to even remotely broach this subject [00:27:30] because I know how dangerous the liberal Zionism is and the mentality it comes with. the, the selectiveness of the dehumanization is in itself alone enough for me to be like, "I bow out of that conversation because I don't-- you don't deserve me having to fight for my humanization," at that point. It's really,the whole concept of let me-- it's let's blame Netanyahu and let's blame,just certain, you know, the
Ben-Gavirs and the Smotrichs and like those, those extreme bad apples,
which is [00:28:00] false. It is-- no, no, it's, it's look at the polls, like the Israeli polls that come out. 80% of Israeli society was in favor of starvation of Gaza. 82% of Israeli society was in favor of the displacement of the Gazans from Gaza because they would like to, obtain Gaza as an annexationreal estate, right?
So this is polls directly from, in Israeli polls that are, reported on by Israeli news sources [00:28:30] saying it out loud. The society of Israel as a majority, I'm telling you straight up, and I'm gonna say this as directly as humanly possible, they are a very, very sick society when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians and their perception of Palestinians.
You see it in their children in schools You see them singing on buses back in 1994, footage of children singing on buses that they, they have a literal chant and song about killing [00:29:00] Palestinians,
when they say our children are growing up to be terrorists, they say our children are growing up to be this and that, when they have ample footage of their children doing all of this. this is the society we have to work against, and now we're seeing it in the polls where they didn't give a, a shit about what happened to Palestinians in Gaza, and they still openly... This is why the brazenness of what we're seeing today and why the- there's no way back for their narrative.
they are openly and brazenly not just performing the act of genocide, but they're [00:29:30] celebrating it on camera and clapping and standing ovations for their mass rapists the group that actually raped a Palestinian on camera.
They're applauding that, those, that group. and they are now free to reenter the military to do it all over again. That is the society I'm fighting against right now, and I have no energy to really explain that anymore to the liberal Zionists. This is not my job to do anymore. that's why I'm a little heated slash, passionate about it because I, in my mind, that is sacred to [00:30:00] me, and I have to exude it that way because I'm at my wit's end when it comes to that stuff.
And this
is why I speak to you guys to, for you guys to be the conduits for us, in a way, to speak to your communities, to open their eyes, because personally, a lot of us are just tired of it.
Ezra Lipp: Anyone who speaks out on behalf of Palestine is often accused of antisemitism. How do you deal with accusations of antisemitism, and what do you think of this whole, topic?
Mo Hamzeh: I can easily answer this one. It's my favorite thing to talk about [00:30:30] actually, the whole
antisemitism thing, because I've been called antisemite left and right by all of these Zionists that genuinely they have watered this down, this term down in such a, malicious, dangerous way because antisemitism as a concept, in my mind, I don't like calling it even antisemitism.
It's called anti-Jewish, right? So anti-Jewish, and I hate the t- by the way, hate the term Islamophobia because that is automatically rooting, Islam in, into fear. And why the hell is Islam the only one that has a phobia attached to it? Why, is there Jewophobia? [00:31:00] Is there any of that? No. They, Islamophobia as a term is a Western construct that should be eradicated as a term because it's l- purposely meant to, associate fear with m- Islam.
So
it anti-Muslim, on my end, and anti-Jewish on my end is also more fair to say because Zionists that claim antisemitism are not Semites, let's be very clear. the, a lot of the Zionists whom are of the Ashkenazi region or of the European region are, cannot claim Semitood in my, in [00:31:30] my book.
So that is, something that is should not be a term either, because if you're gonna say antisemitism, you include Arabs automatically, and I am a Semite myself. I can claim Sem- antisemitism in reality, if you want me to define it properly. So that's one side of the argument. the other side of the argument is that the,
the rise in antisemitism, which yes, I agree is actually a thing right now, is a direct result and almost sourced out of the state of Israel and what they are doing, what they are perpetuating, the narrative they are[00:32:00]
pushing to the fact that they are associating all Jews to the state of Israel is a falsehood, because I personally marched hand-in-hand with anti-Zionist Jews that do not think Israel has a right to exist.
They say it to my face. So that is a s- that is a straight up fact. so when you start to hijack a religion and associate all of the atrocities we're seeing right before our eyes to that religion, you are perpetuating antisemitism, or what I like to call anti-Jewish rhetoric. [00:32:30] So there are real Jews in this world that are getting the dangerous end of this stick because of Israel.
Let's, call a spade a spade here. It is not us, it is not Palestinians perpetuating it. It is not Palestinians ever. You'll never see a Palestinian true to the movement ever say anything wrong against Judaism as a religion. That, that never, if I see a person that is Palestinian that perpetuates hate towards Jewish people and not Zionists, I am the first one to speak up and say, "That is some bullshit.[00:33:00]
That is not what our movement represents in any way, shape, or form." But the antisemitism that everyone is claiming to be antisemitism, is the, the reality is a source, it's sourced out of the state of Israel. It is the reason behind this major spike that we're seeing today. and to be quite frank, the way they are perpetuating, like in the media, that antisemitism is the only thing that's,has a major spike. Anti-Islam right now is at a record level, I- It's record-breaking numbers in the [00:33:30] UK and the US, to the point where s- we're seeing Jake Lang march on into Dearborn, Michigan, with a massively hateful rhetoric around Islam, in broad daylight as if it's, like, normal. And in, in the UK, it's at the extreme levels of anti-Islam, and violence is rampant against us, but that is not ever reported. It's always the anti-Semitism. this is, like, a, a, a real thing that I have to, like, grapple with every single day, is I personally would never push true anti-Jewish rhetoric [00:34:00] in my life.
Never.
Ezra Lipp: People that often come to understand the politics around Palestine often connect them to many other systems of oppression, supremacy that are happening in our world. I know you've talked about the interconnected struggles
how do you feel like the Palestine struggle is connected to other struggles and liberatory movements?
Mo Hamzeh: if you, uh, truly are in the Palestine movement, which in reality [00:34:30] means you're not only thinking about the Palestine movement only,it's connected in every way, shape, or form on all movements, and all, fights against capitalism, fights against authoritarianism, dictatorships, and all that. ultimately this fight is bigger for us, and for me personally, when I'm speaking for myself in the movement, I don't just fight for Palestinians. I speak up for as many marginalized communities as I can, within that, within the context of me being Palestinian, is what I'm trying to say.
It's like I know what oppression feels like, so if I see the, [00:35:00] another community be oppressed, I will speak up, to the extent of my knowledge. And which I think, I wanted to touch on like the thin veil, um, concept here, is that is a veil to me, is like I have learned so much about other movements and other communities and what they've been going through as a result a lo- of a lot of the work I've been doing for my Palestinian people. it's we have come together in community to actually talk to each other about the commonalities, like what is... This is actually something that we should be fighting all the [00:35:30] one common enemy here, that we should all be coming together rather than, siloing our movements in a way. So that's where I'm at, and personally, I've joined a coalition that has the Black Panther movement, the Panther movement, the American Indian movement, the, anti-Zionist Jews, the redneck community, and the Chicano, Brown Berets.
Like we're actually, we've been on a phone call together, live on a, live stream, really talking about this together in such a beautiful way where we're all connected now and understand we have [00:36:00] such foresight to know that we need to fight this stuff together now. This is not, when I s- when I say we are all Palestinian, I don't mean like you guys are Palestinian. no, we're all Palestinian because once we achieve the freedom of the Palestinian people, once we achieve that, we can fight for the freedom of all oppressed, like at this point, because this is one of the strongest, most powerful holds on a people that, uh, we're seeing in pu- public display right now. the Palestinians are being oppressed on, in public, and [00:36:30] to such a, a systemic level that if you break that down, you have the tools to break down the rest. and honestly, it's already gotten to our doorstep.
Like me as a Palestinian has b- have been shouting from October 8th, 2023, 2023 and even before that, but like knowing what was coming to our people, I was like, "Hey guys, if you do not stop what is about to happen to the Palestinians, you do not stop what is happening currently to the Palestinians, it is coming to our doorstep [00:37:00] in whatever Western country you're living in."
And here we are today. It is here. It is officially here in my book, because when you have ICE using Israeli technology to find people, to, hunt them down, and are now killing actual white Americans on the street and demonizing the people they have killed as the ones at fault, right?
Th- this is like the system that Palestinians go through every single day, but now it's gotten to the point where they're doing this on American soil and getting away with it.
it's now in, on [00:37:30] TV, on
screen, like in broad daylight
to the point where they know they have total impunity because of what we've allowed with total impunity. what Israel has been doing to Palestinians exposed to the world. I say like we creak that door open for people to actually see what the hell is up wrong with the world, not just Palestinians. It showed what is wrong with our world to the point where we asked you to kick that door down.
Like Israel has exposed to the world that international law is a f#%king myth. I'm gonna be s- like very direct with you. International law,
it does [00:38:00] not exist anymore.
it was created for the s- the, Global South. It was basically systems put in place, the ICC, the ICJ, the UN, all of these systems put in place, which the UN is the reason why Israel even s- was created in the first place.
Let's call that spade a spade. but these systems are put in place because they want to control the Global South, control the people that are already oppressed, right? to the point where the people that are in the Western powers that be, they get carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want. where it's o- out in public display [00:38:30] when the US loves to reference the ICC and ICJ rulings, when technically they're not affiliated with the ICC as they have been saying, openly lately.
But they love to,you know, agree with them when it's oppressing the Global South region. But no, when it's against the US, we want nothing to do with the ICC. We need to sanction the judges, sanction the lawyers, sanction anyone affiliated with criticizing the US, and now they want to disband the ICC? In what, what world are [00:39:00] we living in right now? So th- the, i- it doesn't exist. international law truly, from the point that the ICJ said, "Oh, it's a plausible genocide," to the point where every single scholar on this planet says it's a genocide, every genocide expert, Holocaust expert saying it's a genocide.
Like this is the world we live in where nothing has happened. Nothing is moving. The needle is not even remotely moving in a, in any way, shape, or form because there is no law and order in this world. It was only, it only existed for [00:39:30] the powers that be, and it's, it's it's exposed now. It's fully exposed. So something needs to, you know... If we need something to change, it needs our, our systems need a full re-up. It needs to be uprooted, and we need to restart over, which is like easier said than done.
Israel showed the world they, they can do everything with total impunity. The US is showing the world they can do everything with total impunity in front of us without a, w- with us just sitting there and watching. Why the hell do we have to watch now? I think this is the point where revolutions happen. I think we're in a [00:40:00] moment of mid, like in the, i-in beginning stage revolution, as I like to call it, because this is where the people's eyes are being opened, and this is the point in time that I think we need to flip the systems, 'cause this is important for us to stand as people.
We outnumber the, the, you know, that billionaire class that's controlling us. We need to do something drastic here to, to, to flip it.
Ezra Lipp: you said this is the early stages of a potential revolution. I'm wondering if you can imagine what that looks like, [00:40:30] because I have to be honest with you I'm not feeling incredibly hopeful or optimistic. certainly when it comes to Gaza, I see the reality on the ground.
I'm in touch with people there, texting every day. I think as a movement, as narratives, there's a lot of shift has happened. I've heard you speak about this before. I think it's incredibly important. more people are bringing to this movement.
We're seeing all these [00:41:00] systems and how we need to fight against them. But I also see, people, military bases being built in Gaza, the IDF, the imperial powers moving in, colonizing the land. we have the trillionaire class, the Epstein class I'm just not feeling very hopeful.
do you think in some ways we're too late, or do you think revolution is still possible and liberation, and what,what does that look like for you?
Mo Hamzeh: No, I mean, it's t- totally possible. most revolutions actually take significantly longer than what we're witnessing. [00:41:30] but, And coming from me, I'm typically the doom and gloom guy, so I, I wanted to shed some bright lights to you because, there is a lot of hope in what we're seeing.
so for any revolution to even start, you have to have,collective eyes open to the issues at hand, right? So the global movement currently, and I'm gonna speak now specific to the Pal- Palestinians just because that's my bread and butter, but it's also, you can also extrapolate it to, what the rest of it could look like.
[00:42:00] But, we as Palestinians knew, the Biden administration, Kamala Harris, Biden, all of them are massively complicit war criminals that have ex- exacerbated the, genocide of our people, right? Th- those are Democrats, right? And we knew that exposing Kamala for what she is, as a Democrat, and similar to the way I say, you know, liberal Zionism is very dangerous.
Democrats are very dangerous in our political world because they are also that veiled,ideology of, liberalism and, [00:42:30] more right than left or whatever they wanna call themselves, or left than right. a- and this is this is something that we wanted to expose in terms of, the systemic nature of it.
We are now, I like to call it in end game mode, where we have to expose everyone for who they are and what they stand for, which is why you've probably seen me personally, go after some candidates that you would think are, "Oh my God, they're, he's, they're pro-Palestine. Why is Mo talking about them like this?"
know specifically
Ezra Lipp: calling out Abdul El-Sayed
Mo Hamzeh: [00:43:00] AbdulEl-Sayed. Exactly. And, and when I start to notice those patterns and systemic issues and problems that of the past of that politicians, say, we know that's gonna put us backwards from all the work that we've been pushing forwards, forward for the past few years, right?
and I refuse to let that happen. And now when I say I'm in endgame mode, it's because I've n- I'm noticing that we all as a community, not just community, global community, have, opened our eyes to what is the true, problem at hand and who the common enemy is, for example. [00:43:30] and this is where we need to call out any Democrat, Republican, r- left, whatever, 'cause this isn't a left-right problem, it's a top-down problem for the most part, where it's really the capital- capitalistic billionaire class against the, the regular people that aren't being heard.
We should be able to hold our politicians accountable and call them out, when they slide incorrect, and that is precisely what I did. I think it's important that we do that so that they can actually course-correct. It's not for me to cancel him. I'm not saying, "No, no more Abdul-Sayed.
He's done [00:44:00] for me. I-- He's the worst thing to ever happen." No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you're the cl- the closest thing to the best thing that could happen for us, but you need to do it right because if you start to fall into the AOC,Bernie Sanders liberals world where they didn't do very much for us either, that is what it is.
the, we're gonna call you out on it. So I just refuse to see the patterns of the past happen anymore, and that's why I'm operating in an all-in mentality and why I wanna call out anybody and e- everybody [00:44:30] and anybody that is just sliding incorrect in my opinion.
Ezra Lipp: I have a question for you, Mo, I, I've heard you say that, Palestinians people are very good at compartmentalizing.I wrote this down, a quote you said: "We know what's happening to us as a people, but we also know how to maintain our joy and maintain our way of living for our families."
I ask you this because this is actually something I've really struggled with personally, having a family and just being, like, a person in the world, since I've-- [00:45:00] since the start of the genocide, really, and especially since I've really gone deep into this world, deeper into it. and I don't know if this is maybe the right question I need to ask, to how to find joy during this time.
Maybe it's not. I, I'm-- I have a conflicting mind of it because I do think we need to stay focused, stay committed to doing this work, trying to stop the genocide and our various degrees of responsibility in it. But I also [00:45:30] know that if we're devoid of joy, that there's a trap there. So I guess I'll ask a two-part question, which is how do you find joy, and what do you think the role of joy is in this moment, if you think it has a role?
Mo Hamzeh: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my joy is my children, my family. I find joy in them every day. honestly, just seeing their faces, lights me up in a way, and is actually the driving force to me continuing the fight that I fight is [00:46:00] for, kids like them who in, on the flip side, where, and not to sound, again, very sad about this and de- depressing, flipping from joy to this, but when I see their faces, I see the kids' faces in Palestine, that are being killed.
and some look almost identical to my son and my daughter. So it's like, that's the most difficult, depressing part, but at the same time, that, that should be the reason why you fight harder, right? And should be the re- also the reason why you wanna hold onto the joy that you have. so that's why I use my kids as that joy that I [00:46:30] hold onto to keep the fight going, every single day.
And obviously the, it's for my people that are on the ground in Palestine, m- where if I feel so broken down, so sad, so depressed, like how do they actually feel, right? So I ground myself in them and how, what they're going through before I, start to even remotely think about what I'm going through in a way.
I'm not n- and that's not to say to, forget about, yourself. I actually am a proponent of self-care. Take care of yourself, take care of your, mind, body, and [00:47:00] soul. But, That also comes with a lot of, mentality changes with regard to how you fight also. So one thing, to answer your question on one, maintaining the joy, but also like fighting the good fight at the same time, and how do you find that balance is, they want you to break down.
if you have that in your head at all times, like they want you to give up, they want you to shut down, they want you to stop fighting. That is their purpose in trying to, commit so many atrocities that you just can't even keep [00:47:30] up with it. Where I've even publicly spoken about this, every empire in the history of all empires always use this thing called psychic numbing, where in, the empires keep throwing so much atrocity at you at once, like the, the Trumps of our world lie to you so much at once that you can't catch on to the lies, you can't catch on to the atrocities anymore.
You lose feeling in what you're seeing, and it it numbs you to the point of actual inaction, where you're like, "I don't know what to do now." So if you're [00:48:00] cognizant of that yourself, you know that this is what they're trying to do, and you hold on to that and, you know, being aware of it, the awareness of it, then you can actually break free of it and continue your fight because you know that that is g- ultimately going to beat them, right?
So Zionists want you to be broken down. They don't care about what they do. They openly flaunt it in front of your face because they think they're getting away with it. And at the end of the day, we are now at the point, like I said, beginning of a revolution, and I wanted to finish this question in a way, is [00:48:30] that the light at the end of the tunnel is because our youth are now awake And I'm, I'm s- doing a full circle thing here where I find joy in my children, but I'm also teaching them and make ensuring that all children grow up to know what from, what's right and what's wrong.
and what we are witnessing now, what we are living through is a genocide of our people, and we need to fight against this, at all times. So when you teach our, you know, the kids of our generation to be very aware of, the evils of our world and you learn, in that way, [00:49:00] then they will grow up to be better leaders.
And now we are seeing a world where our youth are so awake, are so awake. Like, you just look at the polls themselves, like the Democratic, adults a- alone, 80% of Democrats are completely unfavorable op- opinion of Israel, right? But if you look at the actual breakdown of the younger generation, it is massive.
It's almost 100%. It's like super extreme how, much the youth are against this. And that my bright spot or a little bit of joy that I have in my [00:49:30] brain, aside from my children, is that these, the youth are going to take up those positions of power in politics one day, right? These old de- decrepit, racist, imperialist,authoritarian, politicians of our world, of our Western societies, in my mind, I cannot wait for them to go away and these, and watch the youth take over.
Ezra Lipp: I agree with you that the political winds are absolutely shifting. I guess just to rephrase my question from earlier, like, do you think it's [00:50:00] too late for the people of Gaza, at least in this moment in time?
Mo Hamzeh: So no. I think no. They're currently being murdered still, obviously we're seeing it every single day. but the, the... just to bring it back to the joy, you see the people, when they're not in that nightmarish scenario, they are trying to show the world that they are still a joyful people.
They are still rebuilding. It's insane the scenes I see, 'cause I'm [00:50:30] also, directly affiliated with tons of people on the ground in Gaza. Like their, if their homes are torn down and they're, they have an opportunity to go back to them, like within a week,you're seeing their homes getting built up like on, in immaculate speed.
Like it's insanity to me how quickly they can just gather their materials and try to put something, a semblance of a home together. it's not too late because I, I, I hate using that word, or concept because,we will never let them die off or be so or completely [00:51:00] eradicated and ethnically cleansed from the land, without like putting up a fight type situation, 'cause that's just who we are.
So I'll never use, any give up style words. but too late,it's too late in a sense for some people for me, like I said before, where people that fight to continue this, atrocity against, the, against humanity, and people actually arguing for it, that's, tho- those are the people that are I feel like it's like too late for me personally, for me to even, talk to.
those are people [00:51:30] that are just gone to me. They don't exist in this world to me anymore. and those include the politicians of our world,
Those are the people I start to say like it's we're far gone in, in the, in our society because people like that are still being elected. but is it too late? it's a difficult thing for me to answer because I w- what that, automatically assumes that I've given up, and I don't think it's, it's too late to do anything because I think we n- we have a lot more minds to flip, a lot more fight to fight.
and ultimately we need to topple the empires that be at some point in [00:52:00] our lifetimes, so that we can reclaim, what's truly ours.
something that I think we need to do is showcase not just like, um, what's happening to us and the plight of us, but showcase our humanity in it all, right? it's important for us because we've been so systemically dehumanized in this world that, and it sucks that we have to be the ones that rehumanize ourselves, but it's, it is what it is.
we have to, because, like one thing I, I posted, uh, that was just made me tear up a lot was like something so small, but to [00:52:30] the world when they reacted to it, they were like, "Th- it's not small." where to bring it back to what I started off with, where I was bullied as a child for saying I was Palestinian.
I am now seeing, when my nieces had a World Culture Day, my sister, sent me videos of them, rocking their, tatreez dresses. my el- elder niece went with her younger niece for her culture day and did a dabke in the classroom to "Dammi Falastini," to all the kids holding hands doing the dabke together [00:53:00] in the classroom.
that concept to me, when going back to from what I went through as a child to what I'm seeing now, is so beautiful to me, and it, like, makes me tear up now even just talking about it. But it's just, it's a, that's the, those are the moments that I think are wins. As small as they look like, to you, they are big wins to us.
that, it just shows a shift in humanity, a shift in the perception of where we stand and that we are now have become the humans that we deserve to be, this whole time, right? [00:53:30] it sucks to say because we should have never been dehumanized in the first place, but just,coming from a dynamic where I was bullied as a child for being, for who I was, to the point where my nieces are so proud to be who they are, and are doing Palestinian dances with their, s- fellow students,it's, it's a bright new future for me, in my opinion,
Esther Azar:
Okay, and there you have it. Thank you so much, Mo, for coming on the show. Thank you [00:54:00] for all you do. Keep doing it. We need voices like yourself. please leave a rating and review of the show if you value these conversations. You can support the show on Patreon, on Ko-fi. Please follow Mo on all the places that you can find him that I will also link to in the show notes.
I will see you soon, Thank you for doing all you do. I wish you a very free Palestine. Thank you for being here [00:54:30]