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The Public Sector Executive Podcast is the new podcast bringing you closer to the public sector leaders in the UK. Covering everything from the environment to the economy to transport, our podcast will bring you the latest news, views and insight from the people responsible for shaping the country's future.
They're very much aware that the change is coming, although it might be marginally postponed. Environmental benefits from all these projects. But I think sometimes people underestimate their financial benefits. My finance officers, my finance director say well, you know, this doesn't give you a return. Now a positive return from year one. I said, well, what about year two, year three or year does. So let's do it.
This is the public Sector Executive podcast. Bringing you views, insight and conversation from leaders across the public sector, presented by Dan Ben.
Today I am joined by Councillor Abdul Jabbar from Oldham Council. He is the cabinet member, finance and corporate resources, but also covers climate change. In this episode we're going to talk about net zero, climate response. And the work being done in Oldham and around the country to help the environment. Welcome to podcast. Thank you for joining us. First question that and I want to discuss with you how important is it that the public sector really commits to achieving net zero and protecting the environment?
Well, I think it's really important that public sector actually gives true leadership in this space. I think something like 1/3 of the carbon emission in this country comes from public sector. So obviously we're a big polluter in terms of the. Emission. So I think it's really important we do. Yeah, I read an article somewhere recently where it said the world is on track for about 2.5° of warming by 2021. Even with the current pledges to tackle the mission, the window for keeping the 1.5° limit in REACH is rapidly narrowing, and thus the UN saying that. So it's really, really. The we take this extremely seriously and whatever we can to actually mitigate against climate change, I mean as well as that, obviously we have a legal responsibility to achieve net zero by 2050 anyway. So I think if you put all those. Practise together then. This really is important. The the public sector actually steps up and provides true leadership in this space. Because often businesses, residents, private sector organisation charities are looking towards to give them the lead and because we are a dominant player within our neighbourhoods, I think it's right that the public sector should step up and provide leadership in that.
Speaking of properly leading and leading from the front, so to speak, the central government play a big part in this and they play a big part in delegation to yourselves and to communities, what to do and they help with the funding and all that kind of. But recently they they started to change direction and change ambitions a little bit with regards to things like the banning of the sale of new petrol and diesel vehicles. Thinking about those changes and how the government have kind of adapted those and changed their outlook, what effect has that had on local governments like yourselves?
If I'm being completely honest and I don't think much because. I think to be honest, as I said, we are committed for the reasons I've outlined and in any case, the government hasn't changed the 2050 target. But I think also private sectors, they're very much aware that the change is coming, although it might be marginally postponed. So I'm thinking about, you know the. Manufacture, transition and the EV and so on. But I think people know that it will come and therefore they are putting the investment and we are totally committed to. We are putting in investment to reduce our carbon emission to make sure that we look at generating power from renewable sources. So I would say that although that there's been a a slight change in government position, I don't think it has. Actually had much impact in the local government sector. It certainly hasn't had in Oldham. So I can tell you that for sure and we are continuing. To do whatever we can to move forward and deliver on our ambition for climate change.
That's really that's, that's reassuring to say the least. That seems like that's that's testament to the the control and the power that that local governments have over their their spending and their priorities and the work they do alongside the private sector as well, which I'm sure is really important.
These things, you know, you can't stop. Stop. You can't do that. You know, you just got to have a long term plan and you gotta stick at it. So developing the wind turbine, developing a ground mountains, all of it takes a lot of time, a lot of energy, a lot of planning. And it's a it's a medium term project. So because the government has decided to move some of its target by five years, you don't actually change, we don't change. So I'm very clear about the direction of travel here in modem. I'm talking to my colleagues. In the local government sector. They're not impacted by the minor changes that the government announced.
So Speaking of the work that is being done. In Oldham, what are? You doing to achieve net zero and thinking both as a council and wider to to the community.
I've been cabinet member for climate change for a long time, over 12. And during that time, I have sought to bring initiatives to actually reduce our emission to source energy from renewal source. But one of the you know, one of the major things that we've been fairly recently was the Oldham Green New Deal strategy. We launched it in March 2020 and we set a target for the Council and this operation to become carbon neutral by 2020. Right. And for the borrower to become carbon neutral by 2030? Now we were the first local authority in the country to develop the Green New Deal strategy and you know, it is particularly focusing on core benefits of action against climate change and in particular creating green jobs and training opportunities for our young people. In addition to that. We installed a solar farm going back in 2016, 120 kilowatt on one of our markets whole. We helped to create Oldham Community power by giving them a loan of £250,000 because they needed that loan to actually start the company, and because they've done it, they've now gone ahead and been able to install solar panels in number of buildings. Incidentally, get paid back more than half of the. Loan that we gave them. We're spending £3.5 million on the decarbonization of our spindle shopping centre. This is part of a £20 million refurbishment and we were able to get £2.1 million grant from the public sector decarbonization scheme. We created the largest eco park in the country. 160 acres is called Northern roots. I'd share it. We've got a number of activities there where we're encouraging people to understand nature, but more than that, we are going to build a new visitor centre education centre. And the forestry depot. We were able to get a £20 million from levelling up fund for a green Shoot business centre, a linear park in the town centre, and as I said, the building of education centre, northern routes, we've got a major project in the town centre. We're developing a district heating network from low carb. And and it's going to cost around £27 million. We just recently applied for a 9,000,000 LB grant. To the green. Heat Network fund and we waiting for the outcome of that. We've set up a delivery partnership with local businesses and we're hoping to get another £1.6 million to take that work forward from Innovate UK fund with Manchester City Council. We've got Oldham energy Futures, which is a £250,000 project working with Carbon Corp UH, but we've identified two of our most deprived areas in the borough and Carbon Corp is working with them to. Make resident aware of the energy efficiency stuff. Getting them to change their habits in so far as energy consumption is concerned, so that work is going down really well. We're building a new ground mounted solar one MW solar farm at Wrigley had in Failsworth so you know we we doing quite a lot and we've got a community hydro scheme inside of words and then some of our businesses are actually embracing this as well. So for example. Ultimate products, they're based in a cotton mill. It's got a very large flat roof. And they put solar PV on there and they're getting all their power needs from that away on their rooftop. So as you can see, right, we're we're actually doing quite a lot in respect of this whole agenda and we will continue to do more. So this is. This is. An illustration of how Oldham Council is completely committed. And one of the things I'll be doing early in the new year is to hold a green summit with our public sector partners as well as private sector colleagues to make sure that we are all working towards achieving the 2030 target that we set ourselves for the borrower to become. Have a mutual.
There's obvious benefits with this, such as the environment and sustainability and energy efficiency. Away from those wider benefits, do these kind of projects bring things like economic benefits, benefits in the Community, that kind of.
Thing. Yeah. So I think obviously there's environmental benefits from all these projects. But I think sometimes people underestimate their financial. Benefit. So for example, when I mentioned to you about the ultimate product, which is a private company based in Chadderton, the reasons why they've done it is because there is a very strong financial case because you know the moment, as you know electricity price is very high. So they're getting all their power means from this solar ray they put on their roof and they're telling me that they think they can get the pay back within 2 1/2 years. So there's a massive financial case, but on top of that, of course, they reduce their carbon emission very, very substantially. So it's a win win situation. And it's also actually educating their workforce in the process that when they're telling their story, people are listening and they're saying, well, actually, you know, how do we contribute to this agenda for climate? Because everybody needs to be involved in that. So we've got the situation where people are becoming more aware, they're reducing their consumption. They're aware of how power is produced and therefore they're aware of and how they're using power, but I think you know it's the then also understanding of what's happening globally in respect of climate change. And you're seeing obviously. You know the extreme weather conditions that we're seeing. We're seeing floods, we're seeing fires, we're seeing flash flooding, we're seeing storms, you know, and this is all having a devastating impact in the location where it's happening. So people are becoming aware of. You know the massive impact of climate change and recognising that we all need to pull together. Just to understand it, but not just purely protecting the environment, but there are wider benefits as you said. So I think you know the agenda has moved on from the time when I became first the cabinet lead for this area. I think it was just a specialist function, people who were interested in. Green issues they they dealt with it, but now nearly everyone is totally focused on this and wanting to do something. Often finance is the reason why they can't do things like installation of solar panels. The reefs? But do they understand it? I think so. And are people committed? I think very large percentage of the British people are completely committed to this.
One thing I do want to touch on, however, is that we can sit here all day and kind of talk about all the good work that's being done, whether it's just in Oldham or around the country, to achieve net zero and help the environment. But one thing that I think definitely needs to be mentioned is the challenges that come with those projects and having those plans and obviously. Everyone will have great ambitions of reaching net zero by a certain date and having such and such and such plans in in the works. What kind of challenges have you experienced and and come across or had to overcome to to get your plans in motion?
So I think then the, the the biggest one has been finance. Clearly the local government sector in particular has had its grants cut from central government by a huge amount and that's had a a very big impact in terms of our plan to. Take four projects in relation to climate change, so that's a major issue. I think also the uncertainty about funding. So at the moment we get funding for one year, this is our revenue funding and then the capital projects that I mentioned before, the Towns fund and the. And levelling often is a is a beauty contest that you have to bid. For these funds, and then if you lucky, you get it. If you're not, you don't get it, but you waste all this time. Whereas I think if there was a three-year settlement both for capital and for revenue, then we would be in a much better position to plan projects like this. So I think that's a challenge. Definitely without any question that we need more resources and we need stability in terms of. Our financial affairs think the other thing is, is also the struggle to actually explain to people. Look, you know if what is the cost of doing the thing. People always say to me, I mean you know, I I'm also cabinet member for finance, my finance officers, my finance director say well you know this doesn't give you a return. Now a positive return from year one. I said, well, what about year two, year three or year those? So let's do it. Do you know what I mean? So it's actually understanding that and making people understand the whole issue, because if we don't do it, what is the cost of a storm? What is the cost of a drug? What is the cost of flooding? And you know, we need to understand and what is the cost of protecting the global environment? So I'm not saying that you can be reckless with public sector money. You can't. You need to. Be very prudent, but by being prudent, by understanding the topics and understanding that this is a long term game that you're looking at, I think can make these projects happen. And luckily I've got some great officers who understand what I want to do. And you know, we're making some good progress. We've got funding from the towns fund and levelling up funds. So levelling up, yeah, funds. So we've been extremely lucky and these projects will make a huge difference in and there's no doubt about it. My ambition is to become the Greensborough in Hall of Greater Manchester and I think the projects that I mentioned, if we can deliver them in the next two 2 1/2 years, then it will put us in that position.
Sounds like a a brilliant target to to train in for. Because there is so. Much good work going on, not just in Oldham but everywhere. And you know, if you can compete with other boroughs and you can all try and I'll do the good work that you're all doing, then you're always gonna benefit, aren't you? And the public sector executive. We're all about. And a best practise, all the brilliant work that's being done, all the innovation that's happening around the sector in terms of the work that that you guys are doing in Oldham, what can other councils learn from you guys?
Well, I think you're right then that there's a lot of good work going on in the local government sector. I've just completed a. 3 presidential weekend during the UK 100 Climate Leadership Academy and there were nineteen other colleagues from local different local authorities on that programme. And I've seen first time what people are doing and there's some great work going on there and I've learned so much from it. I think in terms of Fordham, I think having myself there for a long time and that continuity in in the cabinet positions certainly helped me to direct my offices in terms of what we want to do and how. Project. I think we're extremely lucky that we've got a few people in order who are absolutely brilliant, including Andrew Hunt, who is the lead manager for our Council on this. As well as I think where he's based. So in the past and in most places, I think you'll find the climate change personnels are located or are saturated in policy units. That's good when you're developing. Strategy. But when this strategy is done is actually implementing and making sure that everything we do, particularly in respect of economic development and regeneration, then really is is 100% a part of everything going to, then I think it needs to be in Economic directorate and region. Directorate. So that's what we've done in Weldon. And I think that's a key factor. So Andy works with all managers who are delivering new projects. And I think that helps to implement our strategy. And it gives them insight into how we can bring in measures to make building more efficient. Think about getting power from renewable sources, doing the retrofitting and all the other things that you need to do. So I think that is really, really important. And I think also like we've been very fortunate to get the level of funding that we've got from central government. I think again because we've had a very. Where plan about how to tackle climate change and what project needed to be supported so northern routes. I chaired that and I was the one who started talking about it and it was my idea. But I've got some brilliant officers who developed that idea into a fully fledged. Project, which is 160 acre biggest eco park in the in the country. So I think to answer your question is where you place your staffing resources. I would say in economic development region team, I think having a long term policy monitoring and I think we also one of the things that we do have is a cross party group on climate change which includes our Youth Council. Which is helping us generate lots of new ideas from different people, and particularly the young people. So yeah, those are some of the things I. I think other colleagues can look at to see what we're doing here in Oldham, but just to repeat the point again, there's already a lot of good practise done in the sector and you know, I think generally local authority despite the. Showing the challenges responding to this agenda quite well.
Thank you very much for that and thank you for joining me today. It was a pleasure to have you on and it's great to hear about.
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