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For so many modern, driven women, life is about being more than one thing. We’re multidimensional—and so are our conversations. We carry multiple identities; we can be both mother and artist; both attorney and entrepreneur. Both clinician and CEO. Both humble and proud. Life for women like us is about both. About…all of the above. It’s about the “and”...
00:00.00
Hello there and welcome to the and she spoke podcast I'm your co-host Jeni Barcelos and I'm joined with Sandy Connery hey Sandy hi everybody in this episode. We're going to talk about imposter syndrome and why it might actually be a problematic concept.
00:22.29
Yeah I Actually love this. You brought this topic up, you slacked a an article to me this weekend and I've been thinking about it ever since. So um, yeah, let's go let's dive in.
00:34.00
Yeah, so I sent you this article because someone I respect on Linkedin actually posted it and reposted it. It's now almost two years old and this article is from the Harvard business review and it's called stop telling women. They have imposter syndrome. And the woman who posted it said that this is I think one of the most top downloaded hpr articles in the history of its like 100 years of publication and so I just I kind of vaguely remember this when it came out but. I think that was a somewhere in the middle of 2021 was a very distracted time for me. So I just clicked through and I read it and then I reread it and then I started weeping and then I sent it to you and then I started sending you line by line excerpts of it and then I read it again. And then I thought we should really think about talking about this on the podcast.
01:26.96
Yeah I think you know even in our coaching calls and our programs This is probably um through different people may not say oh I feel like I've imposter syndrome. But so much what we ah about our coaching is around this even though we may not necessarily call it out.
01:43.92
But so I think it's like incredibly incredibly common for any woman who has achieved any sort of tiny little bit of success. We all don't think we deserve to be here or we're going to get found out but Jenny let's start talking about just those 2 words imposter and syndrome I find this. Part of the article really really powerful.
02:08.70
Yeah, so well yeah I was very taken by the word syndrome and the analysis of that word and it's it's sort of the authors link it to the word Hysteria like in women and how the fact that we that this this syndrome pretty much. Um.
02:23.86
Applies to women and to people of color and how the fact that it's called a syndrome just relates it back to there being like a clinical diagnosis or like something like something wrong with you If you have a syndrome.
02:32.46
sandy
Um, it's like actually something wrong with you If you have a syndrome.
02:37.42
I Thought was really telling and I had never considered that before encountering this article.
02:41.70
sandy
Yeah, and even the word imposter means like you are fraudulent or faking or like doing something wrong like seriously yeah, criminal criminally wrong and you're going to get found out. You're going to like you're going to get caught right? so.
02:48.77
Yeah, or criminal they say crime and implies like criminality.
03:00.20
sandy
Those 2 words together whether we're conscious of that or not are just so loaded when you say that I am just experiencing imposter syndrome like you're going to get caught and you're something is seriously wrong with you.
03:03.90
Um, yeah, yeah, totally yeah and in fact,, um, that one of the sections that I sent you it says. Ah. In truth We don't belong because we were never supposed to be long our presence in most of these spaces is a result of decades of Grassroots Activism and begrudgingly developed legislation.
03:22.55
sandy
Um, yeah.
03:31.21
And then it says academic institutions and corporations are still mired in the cultural inertia of the good old boys clubs and white supremacy. Um, and then it just goes on and on but it says the answer to overcoming imposter syndrome is not to fix individuals but to create an environment that fosters a variety of leadership styles. And in which diverse racial ethnic and gender identities are seen as just as professional as the current model right? and I I think that that's like so freaking powerful to read and to think about and I just remember I just as I read that I remember my first encounter with the. The idea of imposter syndrome and my first exposure to it as a theory was my first semester at yale in graduate school where I definitely felt like I had been let in by mistake and as like an essentially like a high school dropout kid activist kid who kind of like so. Grabbpped her way into an ivy league institution and like definitely felt like I snuck in the back door and then after talking to a few women who but who are becoming my friends realizing that they all felt that way and then and then one of my friend Rosie pointed out this article about imposter syndrome and then we're like oh wow this is just a thing. But it's it's just so on so many levels this article relates to me because I remember actually like first encountering the idea and feeling like it really validated my experience and it was really helpful as a framework for me at the time but now however, many years later Fifteen Twenty years later
05:07.37
You know, being the Ceo of a company and seeing the structural inequities that have affected my life and my career and seeing actually how this entire quote unquote syndrome is so problematic as well like it's just really fascinating to think about the complexity of the idea.
05:23.48
sandy
Yeah, and I but I also want to say like I disagree with that line that you read out like it's not something to be fixed at the individual level like of course we would love to have the the culture change just like we don't want patriarchy and racism and all that. But.
05:41.99
sandy
That's not going to happen anytime soon, but it will start to happen I believe if we are able to recognize what's happening and sort of fix it from inside too because we don't have to just like oh it's not my fault I can't do anything about it. We can start to not use the facts against us like the facts that you and your friends are in yale. Um, is a fact obviously but then you can start to like it's like cognitive dissonance like you you see yourself at yale you're sitting in a class, you've you've got all the evidence in front of you that you're actually at Yale but your brain is like you don't belong here. So it's like these 2 opposing.
06:20.23
sandy
Um, worlds that don't you can't match them up right? and so it's like I heard um Carl Lowenthal say it this way with imposter syndrome. She says it's like you want to believe in empowerment but you don't feel empowered.
06:39.17
sandy
Like a nice ideal like oh let's women go go to Ivy League and go build businesses but like inside the feeling The emotions are like oh hell no like I can't I'm scared I'm uncertain you know I'm doubtful.
06:52.28
heymarvelous
Yeah, so I totally get what you're saying and I agree with you to a point and I also agree at the authors right? because I think on some level It is an inside job and I do think that early on in my career and in my academic life the like learning about imposter Syndrome helped me to.
06:58.18
sandy
Yeah I think both are 2
07:12.15
heymarvelous
Build self-confidence and to feel like my experience was normalized and like it was very powerful actually as a framework for me to do the inside individual work that like gave me the confidence to build out like an entire program there that never existed and to like. You know to do a lot of things that springboarded my career and my life and then right like there's the flip side which is what these authors are talking about which is this like constant beating by society of like beating you back right? And so at some point it stops being an inside job and you just start to realize that there is um.
07:37.52
sandy
Yes.
07:48.10
heymarvelous
Like real trauma associated with being a woman high achiever in this society like that there's constant societal pressure to sort of stay small and to kind of keep you in your place like yes, come where we welcome you.
08:04.87
heymarvelous
We're elevating you to this level and yet no higher right? The the glass ceilingline and so I do I see both sides and at some point in the last 2 to 3 years I would say that the societal forces like became so powerful in my life in my career. That it. It's beyond an inside job like obviously I can change and affect certain things but there is also there was like a realization for me that only to a certain extent.
08:26.93
sandy
Um.
08:36.29
sandy
Yeah I mean it's It's super valuable to know that it's not like you like there's something truly wrong with you and that's why I can't achieve this level of whatever you're trying to do and acknowledge. It's just like understanding how the patriarchy affects and like has um.
08:51.90
sandy
The the socialized conditioning that we've all received like it's so um, welcoming to just like okay like it just feels so good to understand that the struggles that you have um, are not all you that there is this this conditioning this societal programming that we've all received and that to a. Big like a very big degree is why we we sometimes struggle when we go to put ourselves out there as as as achievers or as entrepreneurs or as climbing the corporate ladder or whatever. But um, then we have to do something about it right? or those structures will never.
09:28.73
sandy
Will never ever change. But yeah, it's really really helpful to understand that it's like oh this is what I've been told for many years this is why I get treated this way. This is why we're always patted on the head and said good girl. Good job girls. You should be so proud of yourself.
09:43.73
heymarvelous
He how you and I are both going to drop kick the next person that says that teeth or 1 of us. Yeah, yeah, it's like all right.
09:50.42
sandy
You know I'm not interested but like you guys should you Girls should be really proud of yourself. Yeah seriously this is a hold my beer situation next time I hear that um.
10:00.90
heymarvelous
Down down with the patriarchy and I would say it's like not just the patriarchy here like it's capitalism right? But it's capitalism rooted in the patriarchy. Yeah, so this article I think is also really important and the fact that it's so widely shared and downloaded and consumed is because I think once you get to a certain level.
10:12.88
sandy
So I think.
10:19.42
heymarvelous
Of Ah, success in our it culture at least in this version in like North American business culture as a woman you um, inevitably get told that like the reason. That you're not more successful or the reason that you're struggling is because of this like internalized stuff right? and I and I think that so many women have done so much work on themselves like I feel like every woman that I talk to in business and in entrepreneurship either has coaches or therapists or like. They're doing a lot of um, self-development work and like when I'm around the dudes in business like that is not where the conversation focuses. It is on like how do we get from here to there. How do? how do I achieve this next rung on the ladder of Success. It's not like how do I reflect on. Why this is challenging like it's just this. There's just something like it's just a little off for us as women and I think we we want to as as women who are high achievers. We Want to do everything in our power to fix whatever problems or address whatever difficulties we're encountering.
11:33.76
But like I think that the attention can't only be focused on the self-development and the internal and like how do I improve the way I show up as a public speaker or how do I improve my communication style or my like idea of self like yes and yes, but.
11:52.15
Also maybe there's no amount of self work. You do that's going to change that circumstance for you right? like that's the that's the real problem so you need you need both and I think by pushing like we are so.
11:59.47
sandy
Um, and my.
12:06.68
Humble and so easy to think that it's all us and it's our own work and it's just damn well not. It's not.
12:12.55
sandy
Yeah, sure sure no I think it's both I think it is the and for for sure here and 1 of the things in this article was talking about that um confidence like men are so much more you know arrogant and confident go out go after what they want and confidence doesn't equal.
12:28.96
Right? yeah.
12:29.49
sandy
Um, competence right? and I think that that's the women. The female its like I have to be super competent to be confident so I can go after that next thing and this article and and men they're they're saying in this article that men are just like confident because that's what they've been.
12:46.44
sandy
Program Do believe to see and and have obviously other mentors to to to um to watch and follow and and lead. By example where we don't.
12:57.30
Yeah, no totally I think that's right and then when I another thing that I just noticed in this article is um, the authors say. Imposter Syndrome took a fairly universal feeling of discomfort second guessing and mild anxiety in the workplace and pathologized it especially for women as white men progress their feelings of doubt usually abate as their work and intelligence are validated over time.
13:26.15
They're able to find role models who are like them and rarely if ever do others question their competence which is basically what you're saying contributions or leadership style women experience. The opposite rarely are we invited to a women's career development conference where a session on overcoming imposter Syndrome is not on the agenda.
13:44.29
And I think that that's just what it's like this re constant reinforcement reinforcecing either way if you're a guy like maybe we all arrive into the workforce or into academia in the same state right? like of muddled confusion and vague ambition and then like once you're on the path.
13:45.67
sandy
And reinforcing.
14:02.13
For guys for white guys. It's just like constantly reinforced like you're doing great. Nice workman like whatever it is that people say to them and for us it's like you brush up against power too much and and like you're constantly socialized to be put in your place and to question yourself.
14:17.70
sandy
Swatted back? yep.
14:20.39
So it's like if like you're not crazy. You get 10 years into a career or fifteen or twenty years into a career and you've just the daily experience socializes you to be a certain way and it's not it like it's not your fault right? It's just not.
14:36.51
sandy
Yeah, yeah, no I think that's that's exactly right? and I think I'm thinking about like a lot of women will leave um careers like corporate careers and come over and start a business because they think either That's the next thing or they're not getting anywhere in their corporate job.
14:54.37
sandy
And so let's leave that and bring my expertise over here and what is I I think just is it often just the patterns repeat like initially you're so excited about building your business and the freedom and it's all under under your control until you like in our situation go and seek capital and it all happens all over again, right.
15:09.43
heymarvelous
Um, yeah, oh yeah, on steroids on steroids.
15:14.33
sandy
So I think that was like our last couple years. Yeah yeah, like the the there's a book coming. There's a.
15:22.28
You are icarus my friend you are flying a little too close to the sun like you better. Check yourself because you are getting too close to that center of power and money like that is what that is what the last couple years have been.
15:39.78
heymarvelous
And like such wait wait till the memoir comes out everyone. This is just all fodder for the memoir that one day will be written about this experience? Yeah no I think I think that's right and I think I just think as the mother of a young girl who is entering adolescence in her own journey kind of into like.
15:57.68
sandy
Like scared I trying to make things like.
15:59.54
heymarvelous
Standing alone in this society and trying to do big things like I just I'm trying to think about what is the most protective and helpful way to guide someone into this process into this reality and like it's also kind of selfishly like what I want to do for myself. Like okay knowing all of this like experiencing all of this now. What right? So if the answer isn't only self-development in in like self analysis. What else is there like where do we go from here. So obviously that's a piece of it and then what like what is the most productive way for us. As women who support other women achieving great things in business like what is what do? what? the hell do do we do now like this this doesn't really answer it. But I think it's a really important. It's playing a really important role which is like women sharing it with each other all across the internet. And I it's like ok so don't just think you have imposter syndrome and that it's up to you to fix it like that's step 1 now what now well now what and I I don't have an answer I don't know if you have one sandy or like you have thought about it after reading this. But.
16:56.20
sandy
And like solved. Yeah, no, that's like solved and done. It's what's next.
17:07.47
sandy
Well I just I like my background in training is working at it on the individual level I have less thoughts about how to change the the system the world. The corporations, the men, the leaders I don't know but I do think.
17:24.61
sandy
This these kind of conversations where we can start to recognize oh that's what's happening here. Got it see it right? So things like and I I think it's maybe helpful Jenny to talk about like maybe you don't because I I kind of thought to myself I don't know that I really have imposter syndrome.
17:41.69
sandy
And then I read I Read a bunch of things and I'm like oh shit. Yes I do so things like you you start to question your accomplishments like it was just lucky or you were just in the right place at the right time or it was just you know maybe you had some connections a friend got me this job and you completely take away anything that you would have contribute it.
18:01.21
sandy
Ah, contributed to it. Um, like the fraudulent feeling like I'm going to be discovered as we talked about before if you are looking around and this is me this is what I do you look around and everyone is working harder than you um or is smarter than you or does a better job than you. That's imposter syndrome. Um, if you're always making and afraid of making a mistake even though you've done something like one hundred and eighty times and you still worry that if you screw up it's going to be completely catastrophic that's imposter ah imposter syndrome. Um.
18:39.44
sandy
And I just it's like there are facts like how many hours I work and the work that I do that I could argue with myself about how um I'm you know I work just as hard like I could. There's the facts and then what I I believe right? and they don't match. That's that cognitive dissonance. So I do think that there's some work to be like.
18:59.42
sandy
What are the thoughts that I can come up with that help me be just sort of neutral about it and move into a place of full belief that I am I'm equal I am and I know that you may not get treated as equal but the belief that the worth like I am worth. Ah, the separation of your worth and your work I think that's a big part of where this comes down to to I read another thing that was talking about Jenny when you talk about your daughter that we um sometimes moms of girls will you know back off on the um, you need to look pretty.
19:34.63
sandy
Narrative and they will focus on like you need to be really smart. You need to do really well in school and so those those young girls just shift their focus from having to look pretty to having to be smart and then if they're not smart if they're if they're failing if they're not you know all a's or into Ivy league.
19:51.80
sandy
Again, It's like it starts all over again like the the feelings of doubt and um, shame and all of that. So I think we have to teach our girls that we are worth it just be. We're we're we're worthy just because we exist doesn't matter what you look like doesn't matter what you achieve.
20:06.52
heymarvelous
Um, yeah I think that's I think of course that's amazing. That's an amazing thing to teach them I think with my daughter and we should do like whole conversations on like how to talk to young people about business. But. I have essentially tried to like infuse in her entrepreneurship as at like the cellular level that part of her survival in this world is by being able to serve like serve people and get them to pay money for something like it doesn't it's ah it's like a constantly changing landscape. But your ability to survive in this world is your like is based on your ability to get people to pay you and like for her it's art. She's a talented artist and so like it's been years of um, teaching her how to make something. That like only really she can make in a way that delights people so that they want to pay money for it and then how to like how to actually charge enough money so that it's not you know, 50 hours of time for $10 like that's been a constant education but I think it's like I've tried to tell her that. Like she has gifts that no one else in the world has like it's not a competitive landscape like her genius is not competitive and so it might not look like what other people grade at school or you know what other people think is really fun for a young kid to do but like it's her unique. Genius and that's the most valuable thing.
21:37.57
That she can contribute but it's also separate from her like if she decided she never wanted to make art again. That's ok like she can just make it for her too. But like as a as an entrepreneur she never has to get tied into these systems if she can get this thing right? like.
21:54.95
She doesn't have to expose herself to the kinds of risk that I have exposed myself to if she can get that figure that out at this age and so I've been really open with her about my experience and like she's very.
22:10.11
heymarvelous
Much an activist because of the stories I've told her and like she went with me early on Sandy when I was fundraising when we were doing that the first round you know I would take her with me as like a 4 year old to go pitch to investors and she did not understand what was happening as a 4 year old but she has like.
22:28.28
heymarvelous
Memories of the experience right? and she definitely picked up on my energy as we would leave those meetings and she would ask me questions like Mama. Why are you sad? you know what is why? do you go talk to that man if it makes you sad. So anyway I think just. Just being honest and trying really hard at a young age not to not to let her think the world is fair because it isn't.
22:54.59
sandy
I Tried that with my son and yeah, he's so anti capitalist capitalism. It's hilarious. He just wants a job. He won't even like I wanted to I told him all the stories and exposed him like it's in this great look What happened this is so and he just is like I want nothing to do with business I'm like oh.
23:14.49
sandy
So I don't know but he doesn't understand that he's like a cock in a wheel if he goes and gets a job. He wants to writes Anyway, yeah, it's what he is totally.
23:17.52
heymarvelous
Yeah, seriously, but you know what? maybe that's like maybe that's actually the best way like maybe so like I fantasize about it like I went to a bookstore this weekend and there is all these women like quiet and women in this wonderful independent Bookstore. With these beautiful books and these like fun gardening tools and jewelry at the counter and I just like looked at these people and I just was so jealous and envious of their lot like I just want to retire and so like sit in a bookstore like. And just sell people books like I don't want to have to analyze like everything and debate everything and you know like there's a part of me that I know obviously it's like if that was my actual job I'm sure I would have a lot of critiques.
24:06.19
sandy
Um, you'd last one day.
24:08.19
heymarvelous
I Know that's probably true, but let me have the fantasy Sandy that one day I'm going to retire and sit in a bookstore big or or gallery or something like because that I have to hold on to that that there's a simpler way like where you get your joy.
24:22.45
heymarvelous
From something else right? like your pleasure is not necessarily from your success at your career like I think people do live like that and I I've never understood it. But I'm fascinated by it. So yeah.
24:38.75
sandy
We'll put the link of this article ah in there and I think it's just great conversation for our listeners and their girlfriends in their their the women in their lives about believing that they've had imposter syndrome. What does that look like and like maybe we should just. Abandon that whole term and work on this the the systems right? but this also has to come into like the men who are in leadership who who actually understand that you can't just like write off that woman. No, she's Gotnna Imposster syndrome and like she's never going to make it like it's just.
25:13.14
sandy
I Don't know the solution either. But I do think we have to be aware of it. We have to fix our internal beliefs about ourself. We have to improve that self conceptcept and go forward and build what we want and together. Maybe we can take down the system.
25:24.45
heymarvelous
Yeah, or like maybe call it imposter sense system I know imposter is still a problematic word but like but maybe like instead of imposter syndrome. It's imposter system because you are systematically made out to be an imposter like it is not.
25:41.49
heymarvelous
Yeah, and you start to internalize it. But it's not like you had some weirdo belief that you somehow you know, um through a psychological disorder started to manifest for you like it's not that's not what it is like you are systematically told you don't belong in this certain sphere of influence and that.
26:01.45
heymarvelous
Starts to get internalized just like anyone in any situation if they're told the same thing a hundred times a day eventually guess what you're going to start. It's going to start to rub off on your sense of self. So maybe that's the answer like maybe we just refuse to use the word syndrome now like I think I'm I'm going to I'm going to boycott syndrome.
26:19.61
sandy
Okay, done. Let's boycott it okay, okay have a really weird one but this was my Sunday yesterday. This is what I did um there is Jenny just you're going to type this in as we're talking or as I'm talking.
26:21.71
heymarvelous
All right sandy you have the joy for today's episode
26:36.95
sandy
It's called Hanna Mo Hano mobile SoHONOMOBODotCom these are mobile like prefab homes. Yeah, it's like that say I paused there free you to get.
26:44.34
heymarvelous
Oh my God Oh that's beautiful. Ah, oh.
26:52.22
sandy
Prefab homes made in canada or ah, they're here in Canada but they do soft installations in the states. They're kind of like one like there's 3 3 you know 2 bedroom 3 bedroom. Whatever there's very few options which makes it affordable but they're like.
27:09.71
sandy
Right? They're scandy. They're white. They're clean, they're floor stealing ah windows. It's beautiful I'm of sassed and um now I just need to allow my father to crane drop one of these babies onto his land.
27:17.14
heymarvelous
Um, enough.
27:22.50
heymarvelous
Oh I'm totally going to build this on on our ocean view property this is in the cards.
27:27.96
sandy
Right? And because there's so few options like you have a few options but it's kind of like this is what you get. They can keep the pricing control. They keep the timeline in control. It's all prefabricated wherever and they literally.
27:44.22
sandy
Drag it in um and drop it and they also have like little bars like 1 of the local ski hills here has a um, it's called Hanno Mo Hono Mo bar and they it. Oh it's they're just little can then they're used shipping containers so they do like you know.
28:02.69
sandy
Use existing materials. It's kind of cool right? And then you can build out Dacs and stuff and it can do it for you. Oh my God I have been? Yes, Yes, yes, yes, yes, there's a thing on here the process I.
28:10.30
heymarvelous
It's I Saw the interior is done when they like are is the plumbing and everything's done when they drop it in aha. Ah.
28:17.34
sandy
You can read through all the different steps but they do come and hook up all that all that stuff I believe and everything I.
28:23.74
heymarvelous
Um, we are seventy two Thousand Instagram followers their big deal. They're a big deal. Wow oh.
28:26.60
sandy
Yeah I haven't gone to underground. Yeah I know they're amazing. It's just beautiful. Beautiful, Beautiful. So anyway, if anyone has land and looking to build or it's not even just land like people will drop these into cities too. There's a whole bunch of examples of. Project examples that they have and they're in cities too. But they're absolutely nobody would ever know that that's a container or a prefab home in any way.
28:51.41
heymarvelous
Um, well thank you for sharing that I love a cantilever and I see that that that's possible like I Really love a cantilever you don't find a lot of pre Cantilever homes. Oh my gosh. Oh.
29:00.17
sandy
Um, yeah, the the pictures are yeah okay hustle.
29:06.10
heymarvelous
Thank you for sharing. That's great. All right? So the hustle for today is our shop. It's we sell templates like legal templates copywriting templates some design templates and we have all kinds of little things we get some mini courses in there. It's the luminous shop dot com. the luminous shop dot com all 1 word url and um, it's our little baby store and we love it and we love like making trinkets and treasures digital. Supplies that could be useful for you in your online business and putting them in there and we're kind of constantly putting new stuff in there. So if you haven't checked out the shop yet, you should head on over. We have like a spin it to win it wheel of fortune roulette wheel where you can get yourself a nice little discount for your first purchase and um I think our most popular purchase.
29:58.99
sandy
Um, is a liability. Yeah.
29:59.10
heymarvelous
Ah, yeah, as the legal template for liability. Waiver yeah but there's lots of good stuff. Lots of great copywriting templates in there too. Thanks to Sandy all right? Thanks Sandy! We'll see all next time.
30:07.24
sandy
Um, yeah, okay, awesome. Thanks Jeni bye.