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Best Beginnings is the podcast for everyone working in or caring about the early years. Hosted by George Looker, CEO of Babyzone, each episode brings together leading researchers, clinicians, practitioners, policymakers and parents to explore the evidence, ideas and innovations shaping how we support children and families in the UK.
From infant mental health and attachment to workforce challenges and systems change, Best Beginnings goes beyond the headlines to have the conversations that matter most in early childhood.
New episodes drop every Tuesday.
Best Beginnings is brought to you by Babyzone, a national charity operating free, evidence-based family hubs across England for families with children aged 0–5.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:07:18
Unknown
mean, I thought I'd take, like, take to a parent like a duck to water, but, you know, I was a terrible duck, and the water was just a lot choppier than I thought it was going to be.
00:00:07:20 - 00:00:34:01
Unknown
It was really difficult. And especially in the first five years, you know, learning a whole new host of things, having to be responsible of why you haven't done before and not sleeping at all, certainly for the first year and a half, just really, really difficult. And actually, I think until I become a parent, I'd never fully appreciate it or perhaps empathize with how difficult, how difficult it is.
00:00:34:03 - 00:00:56:21
Unknown
Today. I want to explore a connection that the early years world often talks about, but rarely says directly that financial insecurity isn't just a money problem. It's one of the most powerful forces shaping the environment that a child grows up in. Stress in the home, the quality of early interaction, the degree to which a parent can be present and responsive.
00:00:56:23 - 00:01:24:01
Unknown
Yeah, the financial world and the early years often don't really speak to each other. My guest today, Alix Crystal Palace from the Aviva Foundation, is bringing those two worlds together. The foundation funds organizations across the UK working on financial resilience for the families who need it most. The foundation's model is distinctive, funded from unclaimed shareholder assets focused on innovation and built around a whole person approach.
00:01:24:06 - 00:01:49:13
Unknown
That understands what a family actually needs to be stable, not just solvent. Alex also brings experience in international development and children's rights, including time at the Lumos Foundation, where he coauthored a Lancet commission on deinstitutionalization of children. He's thought deeply and for a long time about what happens to children in the system when when it fails them. Alex, thank you so much for joining me.
00:01:49:15 - 00:02:03:15
Unknown
The Aviva Foundation has an interesting story, and it's distinctive. Perhaps from other charities and other foundations in this space. How can you explain what it means to be working with the Aviva Foundation and the impact it's having on families?
00:02:03:17 - 00:02:14:15
Unknown
Sure. Well, Jo, thanks for having me along today. And yeah, they've even foundation is distinct in a couple of ways. I suppose the first thing is the way in which we want to work with organizations.
00:02:14:20 - 00:02:37:16
Unknown
We recognize the fabric of. Third sector organizations in the UK are fantastic. We also recognize that they're struggling, and so we want to do our best, the best possible way to try and get the financial support we have, the assets that we are able to tap into across Veeva, into that charitable sector to support them to meet the needs of the communities they serve as a foundation.
00:02:37:16 - 00:02:55:16
Unknown
We're never going to know what every local community needs, so we really need to get our resource to organizations who are close to them, who listen to them. And so most of our model is based on us trying to do as kind of thoughtfully, humanely, as and intelligently as we can to get money to the right organizations to support folks.
00:02:55:18 - 00:03:11:21
Unknown
And I suppose the other aspect around what we do that is quite important is, is the kind of organizations that we fund and the way that we fund. So we've got two funds. We've got one called the Communities Fund and one called the Financial Futures Fund. And the Communities Fund supports small charities in the UK, those with income under a million.
00:03:11:23 - 00:03:33:08
Unknown
And the money that we give to those organizations is really trying to help the here and now their organizations that are the lifeblood of this, this country. 85% of charities have got an income under a million, so that the organization down the street that you, went to when your kid was a couple of years old to meet other folk in a, in a, in a playgroup, there are an organization that are planting in your local forest.
00:03:33:08 - 00:04:03:19
Unknown
They do litter picking. It a really fantastic fabric of civil society we've got. So we try and get our money to those smaller organizations to help them kind of tackle some of the issues that their community sees on a day to day basis, and then on the financial futures, which is which is kind of the relationship we have with Baby Zone is around trying to think of some of the big financial inclusion, financial resilience challenges that this country faces, that kind of groups in this country face, and trying to support organizations who are trying to do something a bit differently to to tackle some of those, those challenges.
00:04:03:23 - 00:04:16:16
Unknown
And that might be reducing barriers that some people face in this country. It could be trying to explore opportunities that we think are around innovation that might help make a difference. And so that's long term patient strategic funding.
00:04:16:18 - 00:04:45:02
Unknown
So, Alex, we were talking just beforehand about some of the partnerships you have around financial resilience, and there's one that, stood out for me because I guess it's the most similar or most akin to what Baby Zone is trying to achieve around the whole person within an entire community. And obviously, you said the foundation has a focus on financial resilience, but what are you thinking about when it comes to supporting the entire family and entire community with all of the challenges they may face?
00:04:45:03 - 00:04:59:23
Unknown
Sure. So I think one of the things that we see a lot through the work that we funded and also the work that we have funded, and just generally across societies, we tend to spend a lot more money and focus a lot more on fixing problems than trying to prevent them in the first place.
00:05:00:01 - 00:05:22:08
Unknown
And so some of the work that I really like that we funded before, previously has been about trying to look at the drivers, the causes, the determinants of why people have found themselves in a challenging situation. So rather than just trying to fix a particular problem. So if someone comes in there and you know, they've got really unmanageable debt, they're in a tough financial situation, you can fix that in the short term.
00:05:22:08 - 00:05:42:11
Unknown
So you might be able to help people get some short term loans, some relief off debts that they have. And so they might be on an even keel. They might be okay, but in three, four, five, six months time, if you haven't really explored the reasons why people have found themselves in these circumstances, could be housing. Could be education, could be employment, could be a whole host of different reasons.
00:05:42:12 - 00:06:06:00
Unknown
If you haven't explored and started to address and take action in some of those drivers, chances are you're going to be in a bit of a kind of revolving door situation where you'll help someone or get in trouble again. You help them, they get in trouble again. And it's not great for the individual because clearly, you know, you're retraumatizing you're getting that that person in challenging situations again and again and individual level and think about the impact that that will have on their family.
00:06:06:02 - 00:06:37:20
Unknown
But also, you know, as a as a charity, as a debt advice agency, it's not really satisfying seeing the same people again and again. Ideally, you want to be trying to get people, give them the confidence, the skills, the level of control to be able to handle money issues themselves. So so this kind of, whole person, whole community approach, which, partner of, talking money, put into place instead of looking at the person and the kind of issue they come with as a problem, they take a step back and say, well, look, what are the kind of factors it might contribute to the situation you're in?
00:06:37:22 - 00:07:04:23
Unknown
And what does what might success look like for you? Like what kind of outcomes do you want from our engagement, and how can we support you to take control of that yourself? And so it looks at the kind of aspects around the family, the assets that you've got in a local community and tries to put a plan in place where that individual has enough agency, has enough confidence, has enough capability that they're able to to take steps to manage their own their own situation and address some of the issues.
00:07:04:23 - 00:07:25:13
Unknown
If it's always housing, if you're kind of moving around in an insecure housing or, or perhaps insecure, employment, unless you start to tackle that and address that, you know, you just keep rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. So, so by prioritizing that work on prevention, generally speaking, it has better long term outcomes, has better long term outcomes for the individual.
00:07:25:14 - 00:07:36:16
Unknown
And and that money matters also for the charity for the organization. Because, you know, if you're an advisor who speaks to folks, that success to you is that you don't want people to be dependent on you, you want to help them, you know, take control of their own lives.
00:07:36:16 - 00:07:41:20
Unknown
Yeah, it's a really interesting frame. And I guess it's quite innovative in this space.
00:07:41:20 - 00:08:10:22
Unknown
And I think certainly the Aviva Foundation is seen as being innovative, trying to think about new approaches, new models, thinking about things. The system hasn't necessarily considered before because financial resilience isn't a new challenge. It's definitely, you know, it's always been there, but I guess it's becoming more acute. Or is that something that you're seeing in the people you speak to, the data that you see how families, especially those with young children, the sorts of families that we try and support at Baby Zone.
00:08:11:00 - 00:08:18:10
Unknown
Is that something you're seeing increasing? And what is kind of causing that sort of increased strain on families?
00:08:18:11 - 00:08:35:19
Unknown
So, I mean, maybe first is worth just kind of defining what financial resilience means, because I think the term resilience probably means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And the way I was trying to explain to my kids the other day because they saw, financial resilience with my name on it on the internet.
00:08:35:19 - 00:08:37:16
Unknown
So I would say financial resilience means that,
00:08:37:18 - 00:08:52:10
Unknown
and the way that I kind of explained it to them was kind of imagine that you got stranded on a desert island. So if you had low resilience on a desert island, chances are that on a day to day basis you are struggling to get by. You would just about find enough water you could just to find enough clams or something to eat.
00:08:52:12 - 00:09:06:17
Unknown
But any changes in your environment are going to have a really terrible effect on you. So I don't know if the weather suddenly changes. If it gets really hot and you're the stream that you got water from God, she. So you've got no ability to kind of adapt to that, that situation. It's on a day by day basis.
00:09:06:17 - 00:09:28:20
Unknown
It's a struggle to get by, and anything you haven't anticipated is going to have a major impact on you. Whereas if you've got high resilience on that desert, you have this kind of, desert islands that chances are that you'll have found a stable water source that you've been able to think, okay, well, I'm going to make a bed for myself to sleep on, and I'm going to make a little shelter, and I'm going to make a little boat so I can go and get fish and what have you.
00:09:28:21 - 00:09:44:11
Unknown
And so you start to put a little bit of stuff away. So okay, well I'm okay at the moment. But you know, the weather might change in a couple of weeks time. So let's, let's get some food deposits. Let's grow some plants here so I can start to get some vegetables and so forth. And so you take a series of steps that helps you planning for the future.
00:09:44:11 - 00:10:04:09
Unknown
So when you know, unexpected stuff is always going to happen in our lives. So when that does happen, you've got enough reserves and stock to be able to to adapt. Not sure if it helped my kids understand resilience, but certainly for much. But it's exactly the same with financial resilience. You know when when you when you haven't got enough money coming in to deal with what goes out, you're going to have low resilience.
00:10:04:11 - 00:10:26:15
Unknown
And if you don't have steps in place, perhaps a little bit of savings that you can rely on, perhaps some insurance that helps you anticipate, anticipate, plan and protect yourself from future occurrences. If you're not able to get access to to kind of credit at different points, points in your life, chances are anything unexpected is going to have a really serious, serious impact on you.
00:10:26:17 - 00:10:44:21
Unknown
And what unexpected looks like. It's, you know, could be quite relative for some people. The big financial resilience point in a year might be, gosh, it's the end of the some holidays I need to buy my kids clothes, new clothes for school. So of course you haven't really planned for kind of a massive impact on your on your, incomings and outgoings.
00:10:44:23 - 00:11:14:16
Unknown
Or it could be Christmas time, could be a freezer breaking down, or it could be, you know, your house going up in flames could be going, oh, it could be a whole host of things. But each one of those can have a dramatic a major impact on, on your kind of financial situation. And so when you look at financial resilience, the kind of financial, conduct Authority in their Financial Life survey estimate, the kind of one for the population who've got low financial resilience, that means, you know, unexpected cost or an unexpected drop in income is going to have, you know, quite a serious impacts impact on you.
00:11:14:20 - 00:11:36:04
Unknown
1 in 10 don't have any cash savings. So there's a lot of people who are in a precarious situation. 5 million people, citizens of this estimate have are in a budget deficit. So the money they spend each week is less than the money that they get in. So having to rely on debt or cutting back on essentials. So, you know, that paints a picture of a really significant proportion of the country that are in financial difficulty.
00:11:36:06 - 00:11:55:09
Unknown
Whether that number is is growing or not is kind of up for debate. It's been stable for the for the last few years. But clearly on the back of the pandemic and the cost of living crisis, what you're finding is people who were in difficult situations are now more acute, challenging situations. And then there was a kind of segment of the population who were just about doing okay.
00:11:55:09 - 00:12:14:22
Unknown
But now I've kind of got dragged into a situation where they're having to cut back on, on essentials to get by. So you've got you've got that kind of bulk of folk who are in challenged situations and what some of the data shows from the charity sector is not only a people are presented with with money problems, but now you're seeing a greater complexity in the range of challenges they've got.
00:12:14:22 - 00:12:35:17
Unknown
So it's not someone coming with the money, just a money problem. It's a money problem or perhaps a mental health problem. Or perhaps there's real issues with housing. So what you what you see, this is not only it's it's this kind of this, this chunk chunk of the population, a major chunk of the population, low financial resilience, but also how entwined it is with so many other aspects.
00:12:35:19 - 00:12:37:08
Unknown
Aspects of your, of your life.
00:12:37:08 - 00:12:54:21
Unknown
yeah, it's quite a dynamic area. The interesting thing is we all, you know, we will all get into a situation at some point where all resilience is, is hit. It might be I a death in the family. It might be, an illness that we might have. It might be growing older.
00:12:54:21 - 00:13:13:15
Unknown
All these things, all these kind of life life points, life stages. So, you know, they change and they'll impact on on our resilience. We might lose a job, man. All of a sudden, you kind of need to adapt. So that that one in for the population below financial resilience. That's not static. That could be you and I in a couple of years time.
00:13:13:20 - 00:13:31:17
Unknown
And so I think it's really important to think about what we can do to try and help folk in that situation. So you can go on that pathway to great resilience. And generally the more resilient you are, you're going to be happier and, and able to, to be a better parent, because you won't have that, that stress in the back of your mind.
00:13:31:22 - 00:13:32:00
Unknown
And
00:13:32:01 - 00:13:54:11
Unknown
that's such a, such a powerful message that, you know, that 1 in 4 people are struggling and potentially have low resilience. And, you know, that's you're standing on the tube platform. Think about how many people there is that you're kind of commuting back and forth with. And also and we're sort of going around a baby zone. And you look at all the families, the sort of 200 or so families that will be in a baby zone on any given day.
00:13:54:13 - 00:14:17:13
Unknown
The there's an outsized proportion of those will be in this sort of scenario that you've painted, I guess. Alex, it's interesting to think about your own backgrounds kind of what informed you prior to joining the Aviva Foundation? Because I think, you know, the work that you did at Lumos on deinstitutionalization, and sort of making the case that children end up in institutions primarily because of poverty.
00:14:17:17 - 00:14:23:22
Unknown
And there's a sort of The Lancet commission. There's a report that you also authored.
00:14:24:02 - 00:14:37:03
Unknown
I guess when you look at UK families under pressure now, do you see the same logic? Is the message in that report the evidence that you prepared there? Is that still true? Are you still seeing families being pulled apart because of a lack of resource?
00:14:37:05 - 00:14:42:06
Unknown
when I was at Lumos. So I mean, deinstitutionalization, probably the worst term because it's race is hard to say.
00:14:42:08 - 00:14:43:13
Unknown
And also it's difficult to know what it,
00:14:43:19 - 00:14:45:21
Unknown
meant to practice it a couple of times ahead of today.
00:14:46:01 - 00:14:47:21
Unknown
Yeah. I hope I did a really good job there.
00:14:48:00 - 00:15:03:07
Unknown
But you know, one of the, the kind of aspects that we looked at in Lumos there is how you've got this, this terrible situation globally where about 5.4 million children are torn away from their families and placed in institutional care.
00:15:03:07 - 00:15:23:17
Unknown
So that kind of that is commonly kind of orphanages. So people always think of an orphanage as a great place and that's, that's full of orphans. So, you know, kids who don't have any parents, but data consistently shows across different countries, roughly 80% of children in institutional care, in orphanages, and similar settings have got a living parent.
00:15:23:17 - 00:15:25:10
Unknown
So it's not orphans that
00:15:25:12 - 00:15:47:20
Unknown
children who have parents that the majority of which would like to care for them, would like to support them, but for various different reasons. That child has been separated family and grows up outside of that family. And and data from everywhere shows that once you take a child out of a family, out of a family based environment, outcomes become worse across pretty much everything that you can measure.
00:15:47:22 - 00:16:03:15
Unknown
And what are the what are the aspects in that that I think is really true. We see in the UK today is yeah, a lot of the time a child has to follow the money. So where, where, where there resources, where there's money tends to be where children end up gravitating. It's not rocket science, it's fairly obvious.
00:16:03:17 - 00:16:22:16
Unknown
And so if you're a you know, if you're a family and you're really struggling to support your children to eat, to get education, and you can see in some kind of institutional care, actually, if my child was in there, they get three meals a day to be able to get, an education. You know, very few parents will ever willingly give up that child.
00:16:22:16 - 00:16:44:20
Unknown
This is a kind of breakdown. This is trauma. This is this is kind of tearing at the very fabric of, you know, what makes us happy, makes us who we are. And those children get placed in institutional care because their parents think that they've got a better chance of, of, of a better life there. But if those resources, instead of being locked up in a building, have been diverted to that that family.
00:16:44:20 - 00:17:10:04
Unknown
So to help mum and dad, perhaps when they lost their job or to help a little bit around paying for school fees in a particular country or what have you, it's far, far, far cheaper to invest early and support families to stay together, to support families, parents, caregivers to be able to have that flexibility, they need to look after their children and look after their children well and meet their basic needs.
00:17:10:06 - 00:17:30:16
Unknown
Then it is locking that money up in a building. Is much, much more expensive and in the way we often see the same thing here in the UK is that we tend to under invest in that kind of early stage, support to children and families. And then when issues occur, when challenges occur, when, you know, children might have a difficult time at school,
00:17:30:18 - 00:17:38:02
Unknown
when parents get into a really difficult situation in their money, we then have to pour a lot of money to try and solve that problem.
00:17:38:04 - 00:17:48:02
Unknown
And so, you know, often it's that case, you know, children following the money rather than the money following the children, which, which you see in lots of different countries. And I think the UK is no different.
00:17:48:04 - 00:18:11:04
Unknown
Yeah. And that's the, the drum that we buy as well in terms of the evidence around the Heckman curve and investment in the early years, and seeing how you can have an outsized impact, some of the preventative measures that you've spoken about, but also, you know that naught two 0 to 5 age range where investing in families with children of that age, in that age range, you we can have an outsized impact.
00:18:11:04 - 00:18:36:16
Unknown
We can also save the state money. We can avoid some of the, challenges and interventions that the state has to make. And that's, again, one of the reasons why babies own exists is to try and help parents help families navigating it before there's a problem, before it's a big challenge, and it's part of our model that we co-locate with, you know, other early age classes, and we have fun time for parents and children to bond and spend time together.
00:18:36:18 - 00:19:17:01
Unknown
But there's also that opportunity so that they can find the services that they might need or answers to the questions they might have, or even questions they might not know they have. But the challenges they're facing, there's a friendly, safe environment. They feel, open enough to share their challenges and concerns. I guess, you know, that's why we're so, so happy to be working with the Aviva Foundation and, thinking about, you know, that link between financial stress and parental parenting, parenting quality, I guess, like the quality of the interaction you're able to have with a child if you're really stressed about your finances, how do you think you know you would try and talk
00:19:17:01 - 00:19:36:02
Unknown
to parents? What do you try and say to parents trying to get through the week that are struggling to balance the books? How would you how do you think the Beaver Foundation babies are in organizations like ours? How do you try and talk to parents in a way that's honest, useful, without becoming a sort of another source of shame or, kind of concern?
00:19:36:04 - 00:19:45:03
Unknown
I think that's the first thing that I just, I mean, I'll take my own personal experiences as a parent to this. And it's really difficult. I
00:19:45:05 - 00:19:52:23
Unknown
mean, I thought I'd take, like, take to a parent like a duck to water, but, you know, I was a terrible duck, and the water was just a lot choppier than I thought it was going to be.
00:19:53:01 - 00:20:16:12
Unknown
It was really difficult. And especially in the first five years, you know, learning a whole new host of things, having to be responsible of why you haven't done before and not sleeping at all, certainly for the first year and a half, just really, really difficult. And actually, I think until I become a parent, I'd never fully appreciate it or perhaps empathize with how difficult, how difficult it is.
00:20:16:12 - 00:20:36:13
Unknown
So I think the first thing to kind of, stress is, you know, it's tough being a parent, and it's particularly tough in those early years where that dependency is really is really strong when you're when you're carrying financial insecurity on your back and and being a parent, it's it's really tough because it shines through in everything you do.
00:20:36:13 - 00:20:46:17
Unknown
It reduces your your kind of mental bandwidth at times, your your ability to to do all the things that you want to do. And you should be doing your kids like playing and being present.
00:20:46:19 - 00:20:57:15
Unknown
in the same way that, you know, when you're when you're pregnant with a child, what you, what you, how you feel, what you eat, what you drink makes it impact the child's growing inside you.
00:20:57:17 - 00:21:20:21
Unknown
It's kind of the same in the first five years. If you're feeling really tough, if you're stressed, if you're anxious, chances are it is going to impact and affect the child that your your you're looking after. And so I think sometimes it's about recognizing that stress, not taking it on your own, and trying to talk about it, trying to find people, who can support parents have got this amazing ability.
00:21:20:21 - 00:21:39:06
Unknown
It's it's a superpower to be able to protect the children that you care for by trying to hide and shield and protect them from, from everything that you're feeling. So you don't want them to know that you're in a financially difficult situation. You don't want them to know the stress and anxiety that you've got. And so you try and protect them.
00:21:39:06 - 00:21:41:01
Unknown
And at times that can mean, you know,
00:21:41:05 - 00:22:02:03
Unknown
parents go without food so that that children can. Parents go without essentials so that their children have them. And obviously, you know, kind of with any form of stress, if, you know, it's kind of like a putting a pebble in your rucksack, you know, you can do it once you can do it twice, and then once you've done it for quite a while, that bike starts to feel a little bit heavy and it kind of slows you down a bit.
00:22:02:03 - 00:22:21:09
Unknown
And then when it's been going for a long period of time that that that stops you, it paralyzes you. And so I think where you have to, to get to as a parent in these situations is find someone that you can talk to about it. And that doesn't need to be, you know, a financial expert, sometimes just another friend, to be able to kind of verbalize some of the stuff you're feeling,
00:22:21:11 - 00:22:24:06
Unknown
find someone you trust in an environment you feel supported in.
00:22:24:06 - 00:22:39:08
Unknown
I think babies own, I was there last week is a really fantastic environment for just feeling quite safe to have a conversation that, you know you're not very comfortable with. You might not want to talk about it with your family, might not want to talk about it. Your partner almost certainly don't talk about it to the parents.
00:22:39:08 - 00:23:00:04
Unknown
And so, you know, find someone that, you know, one of the staff, someone else, when you're sitting in a group just to talk about some of those money problems, because you probably find that most of the people there are experiencing similar challenges. And you'll also probably find they've probably got some pretty, you know, fantastic ways in which they might have been able to deal with them or organizations that might be able to help.
00:23:00:04 - 00:23:20:14
Unknown
And so I think sometimes it's about getting these things on the table. We've got is a really perverse, perverse situation that we have, in society where we really don't like talking about money. I think something like, money in Pension Service did it, did a survey, and I thought it was like 44% of people feel comfortable talking about money.
00:23:20:16 - 00:23:31:22
Unknown
And that goes down to 39% for women. So generally we don't like talking about money. It's kind of like sex education in a way. You know, we just don't really enjoy. I can see you squirming now too, as I said. That said, that word.
00:23:31:22 - 00:23:48:22
Unknown
We just don't like talking about that these things a great deal. And actually, when you talk about it, that that weight lifts off your shoulders with the kind of pebble in the bag bag analogy, you know, you get to kind of take a couple of spoonfuls of those pebbles out and it can give you a bit of freedom, it can make you more relaxed and it can normalize it.
00:23:48:22 - 00:24:13:10
Unknown
There's a lot of stigma around being in a financially challenging situation. And if you go to the fact that 1 in 4 people have got low financial resilience, you know, this, this is this isn't a kind of small isolate thing. Lots of people have have money worries. Lots of people struggle financially. So get some kind of solidarity or solidarity and get it off your chest is a really key way to to kind of being on that path to getting into a more secure financial future.
00:24:13:12 - 00:24:21:22
Unknown
Yeah, I think that's right as forming that community, forming an ecosystem of people you trust, where you're getting good guidance, good support, high quality support.
00:24:22:00 - 00:24:57:23
Unknown
And I guess the other thing that we've been working on together is how we can do that in an online setting, too. I'm thinking about Baby Body, the app, the, instead of integrating some of the work that, that you're doing are pushing and promoting and so making sure that we have, practical, specific support for parents when they may have questions around their employment rights, around, you know, financial entitlements that they should be aware of alongside, you know, baby bodies, NHS endorsed pay, parenting, guidance and support to and I guess that's about providing practical, specific, intervention.
00:24:58:01 - 00:25:02:18
Unknown
I guess for me, the sort of the revelation is on saying how big that gap is.
00:25:02:18 - 00:25:15:12
Unknown
at the moment that, you know, working parents aren't getting what they're entitled to. They don't understand, what it is. It's out there for them to support them. What's your understanding of how big that gap is and why that gap is so big?
00:25:15:12 - 00:25:20:23
Unknown
And, you know, how much parents perhaps leaving on the table because they're not as informed as they should be?
00:25:21:02 - 00:25:35:21
Unknown
Well, I remember using the Baby Body app when we were kind of young, young, young expecting parents and you kind of look, I think it was a baby body where you kind of look all, you know, it's the size of a great now much. You know, it's gone up to a pomegranate or whatever it was. You kind of see that.
00:25:35:23 - 00:25:54:13
Unknown
And I think when you're kind of expecting a child, a lot of the things you're thinking about tend not to be on the kind of money side. You just, you know, something going inside you, your partner. And so you're thinking about all those kind of, you know, wonderful or scary, depending on what side of the bed you get out of, things that are going to be happening in your life.
00:25:54:15 - 00:26:06:04
Unknown
But obviously in that period as well, there's a whole host of decisions you could be making around kind of pathways. They're going to influence your financial situation.
00:26:06:06 - 00:26:15:09
Unknown
And I and I can't quantify it, but but I know a lot, a lot of, if you look at the data around, where a lot of gender inequality comes in.
00:26:15:09 - 00:26:44:11
Unknown
So if you look at the, the, the gender pay gap savings gap pension got a lot of that starts. That fork in the road can be around childbirth to start with. And so ways in which we can support particularly women to understand what their rights are during that period of time, what they're entitled to and how they can go about it is going to be really important because that will set a pathway, it will set a trajectory after childbirth.
00:26:44:11 - 00:26:56:06
Unknown
And in those early years, and so again, probably to the earlier point, is having a conversation with employers around will. Look, you know, I think what's going to work for me might be this kind of working pattern. So I can do x, Y, and Z with my child.
00:26:56:08 - 00:27:13:00
Unknown
That worked well for our family. Or I want to take this period of time off for these reasons, and this is what I'm entitled to sometimes, as a as an expected parent, you have to go into hundreds of different sources and try and find that and kind of scramble and hope that you find the right information.
00:27:13:02 - 00:27:34:14
Unknown
I think by trying to nest that working families advice around what your entitlements are in baby body. So, you know, meeting people where they are, you know, you're looking at vaccinations, breastfeeding, you know, growth of your child. And it's a good prompt thing. Actually, I hadn't really had that conversation with my employer around what I, what I should be doing or what flexible work might be look like.
00:27:34:14 - 00:27:55:19
Unknown
So so trying to kind of fold that in I think is, is is really important. It's not a silver bullet. It's all going to change everything. But again, a lot of these things around prompts, around conversations and you know, where it can't all be explored and provided through through an app. It's to single other other organizations out there in my locality that might be able to go and speak to, to, to help me in that area.
00:27:55:21 - 00:28:06:10
Unknown
I think that's 100% right. It's a it's a prompt. It's a nudge in the right direction. Obviously, if people want to explore more and to further research, then we'll definitely support them on that journey.
00:28:06:12 - 00:28:37:13
Unknown
And also point them towards people that may be attending a baby zone. During our community days, we often bring in different partners, whether they be from the Department for Work and Pensions or other, organizations that will help them navigate, parenting and and finances during that stressful period. And I guess the other thing that Aviva and the foundation you've been working on, is being part of that Royal Foundations business task force and having those conversations with employers about parental rights.
00:28:37:15 - 00:28:46:12
Unknown
I mean, what does Aviva do when it's sort of having those two conversations? And how have you been using those relationships to showcase how parents can be supportive, better?
00:28:46:14 - 00:29:18:20
Unknown
Yes, absolutely. So Aviva sits on sits on the Royal Foundation's early Early Childhood Business Task force. And that that's a group of different businesses across the UK that look to see what what kind of role might businesses play in supporting families, system structures in those early years for children. And it's a really interesting area because, you know, I think, as babies are is testament to, you know, there's no one organization or no one sector that has a responsibility for, for for children growing up, you know, everyone needs to work together.
00:29:18:20 - 00:29:36:02
Unknown
It's got to be cross-sectoral. And so I guess some businesses probably don't always might not always instinctively see what role they'll play in the early years. But actually when you when you kind of take a step back and look at it, nearly every business in some way or another can play quite a fundamental role, in supporting early childhood development.
00:29:36:04 - 00:30:00:09
Unknown
And that could be, I mean, kind of three, three ways that you could look at it. One is around the kind of products and services that they offer. So, you know, a number of different, businesses are in an area, particularly in financial services, where, you know, you could really help from a kind of financial inclusion perspective of either have got a really interesting product, which is which is, free life insurance for new parents for a year.
00:30:00:11 - 00:30:19:14
Unknown
Which kind of covers you in that essential period of time, when you become a parent for the first time, I probably have to say with terms and terms and conditions apply. I've always wanted to say that. But, you know, this idea that you can you can offer a free product product to people that helps build their resilience, a kind of critical life moment for folks.
00:30:19:14 - 00:30:22:06
Unknown
So there's kind of the products and services that you offer.
00:30:22:11 - 00:30:40:18
Unknown
And then I think the other thing that you can do as an employer is look at, look at the culture you have in your organization to support parents, particularly parents of younger children. So that could be around the flexibility of work. I mean, I'm so fortunate that I'm able to adapt my calendar around my work and my children's needs.
00:30:40:18 - 00:31:07:21
Unknown
So, you know, generally speaking, both of them seem to be reasonably satisfied with with what I'm doing. But that's also stuff like parental leave. Aviva has got a fantastic, parental leave policy where regardless of gender, sexual orientation or how you how you became a parent, parental leave is the same. And what what what's, staggering with that is I think the, the average amount of time men take off as parental leave is 22 weeks, and I think statutory is two weeks.
00:31:07:21 - 00:31:09:05
Unknown
So, I mean,
00:31:09:07 - 00:31:30:12
Unknown
when I go back to when I become a parent for the first time, I had two weeks statutory rights, no time at all for those really intimate, intimate, formative days and weeks where, you know, the the first week is just overcoming trauma. You know, I just, you know, the kind of birth was enough to kind of, knock me for six,
00:31:30:15 - 00:31:41:08
Unknown
you know, so, you know, you know, your time to bond, to support, to, to come to understand what family unit might look like, feel like, and operate like pretty much straight away, you're going to have to go back into the office.
00:31:41:10 - 00:31:51:10
Unknown
So actually giving that that, freedom and flexibility, and, and, and giving primacy to the family makes a massive difference.
00:31:51:14 - 00:32:03:10
Unknown
And that's, you know, clearly good for the individual. It's clearly good for the family, but it's also good for stuff like, you know, retention and pride in how you, you know, how you engage with your employees.
00:32:03:12 - 00:32:18:10
Unknown
And then I think the other things you've got kind of products and services, you've got that kind of role as a, as an employer. And then the other piece is kind of how how your business shows up in the communities you're in. So it might be kind of the place where your, your people work in. So kind of what can you do in your local area?
00:32:18:12 - 00:32:47:03
Unknown
Or it could be how you how you support communities. So we're really fortunate, the Aviva Foundation that, we're able to kind of align the values of how we try and support communities with Aviva, the business, which is kind of that their, their overall kind of vision is kind of with you today for better tomorrow, which is really how we try to operate as a foundation, like what can we do to support people in the here and now, which we tend to do to our communities, fund that kind of small funding for smaller organizations.
00:32:47:04 - 00:33:06:23
Unknown
And that better tomorrow piece is how do we invest in the long term to help people anticipate and overcome some of those bigger financial challenges, and having that harmony with our, I guess, philanthropy and the kind of corporate mission and making them entwined with the same kind of underpinning values, means that both can maximize each other. So that can work really well.
00:33:07:04 - 00:33:21:14
Unknown
Yeah. Brilliant. And I guess you've spoken at length around how it works and what's been successful, and the sort of the mission of the, of the foundation, I guess the on the flip side of that coin is what hasn't worked.
00:33:21:14 - 00:33:33:20
Unknown
In your experience, where have you found projects that perhaps haven't managed to have the impact that you wanted to have, or haven't been able to close that financial resilience gap that we've described?
00:33:33:22 - 00:33:55:20
Unknown
Yeah, this is a real name or shame thing, isn't it? Yeah. I love to have a little black book of ones, the cross said. But I mean, generally speaking, the, the stuff that we support nearly always generates fantastic lessons. And sometimes those lessons are, to your point, things that maybe didn't work as well, that we don't want to try again because we're trying to fund some, you know, fairly innovative and exploratory work.
00:33:55:22 - 00:34:18:18
Unknown
Some of it needs to fail or it's not exploratory or innovative enough. So, and when I say fail, you know, just may not work as intended, rather than kind of, having unintended consequences that that might be tough for the people involved. I think the things that we funded where we may be kind of haven't been, haven't, haven't felt they've achieved the kind of things that we wanted them to tend to be.
00:34:18:18 - 00:34:53:18
Unknown
Things are a little bit more worn off. And that might be, I don't know, something like financial education. It can be quite seductive to say, you know, let's go and run a financial education lesson for a thousand kids in this area. You know, your immediate feedback is going to be pretty good. You know, kids are say, oh, yeah, I hadn't thought of that money in that way before, but but really, those kind of one off kind of doses of something, particularly with young people who've got a whole host of things that they're interested about, thinking about and learning at any given time is unlikely to, to, to kind of last long in
00:34:53:18 - 00:35:01:04
Unknown
the mind. So I think kind of average that a bit more sustained longer term. I've got a vision that it's working towards tend to tend to do a bit better.
00:35:01:08 - 00:35:25:16
Unknown
And then also I think on the kind of research and influencing piece, we've, we've funded some stuff that has yielded really good insights. But, I think unless it's an organization that perhaps thinks about how it's going to really use those insights to, to kind of effect change, sometimes you could just get us another report that kind of sits on, on a shelf and now, generally speaking, our society today we're quite information and evidence heavy.
00:35:25:17 - 00:35:35:02
Unknown
The challenge is actually using that to make a really good decision. And so investing the time in the kind of advocacy and utility of research I think is just as important as is doing it.
00:35:35:08 - 00:35:47:10
Unknown
Yeah, absolutely. And again, I guess we position babies owners, delivery organization and baby body as an app that has, you know, thousands of monthly users and new registrations the whole time.
00:35:47:10 - 00:36:06:08
Unknown
And that's the big focus and emphasis for us. And know you've been to Babies Only spoke previously about, you know, your visit to one of our hubs and and meeting the families. And I guess, what did that visit give you in terms of understanding a the sorts of people that we serve, but also the opportunity for our collaboration in our work with the Aviva Foundation.
00:36:06:10 - 00:36:32:00
Unknown
So I think and this is one of the reasons actually, through the foundation we have, this kind of communities fund is there's a real there's there's a huge and often kind of underutilized value in organizations embedded in a community and the kind of relationships they have, with the people they serve. I think a lot of the time, building a model like you've got with babies own where you you're kind of situated in the community, you've got open doors.
00:36:32:00 - 00:37:04:13
Unknown
you don't require people to jump through hoops or kind of overly just register to be able to to be able to come in and use the services. You really you're really cognizant of the potential barriers that might prevent people from coming in. And so because of that and because of that open door and quite warm, atmosphere, you get the local community and, and that might be communities that might not engage with formal systems or might be quite, you know, have fairly tough levels of kind of challenging levels of trust with, with kind of different parts of the kind of local make up.
00:37:04:15 - 00:37:30:10
Unknown
And so you've got this, this kind of, this fantastic asset where people come and they're open, they're trusting, and they come because you offer something of value, you know, and that might be something that their kids can do. It might be something just as a parent, as respite from having to think of like another thing to do that isn't screen based or whatever to, you know, just to kind of occupy and give you a, you know, let you have a cup of tea and put you kind of put your feet up, while kids get to play with each other.
00:37:30:12 - 00:37:51:06
Unknown
And what's fantastic about that in a first, as you get people to come in, you get people to come in because they want to come in, not because they have to come in. And then once people are in there, well, I think it's fantastic about the model that you've built is that then you can start to kind of add on other little things that perhaps might not have been much of a of a kind of draw for people initially, but are probably going to have massive value.
00:37:51:07 - 00:38:06:06
Unknown
They might be things that have some stigma attached to them. So, you know, things like numeracy and literacy, you might find in some communities that's pretty low and you probably find adults aren't good at, I'm not going to go to a maths class, I'm not going to go to a reading class because I'm an adult. It feels there's a lot of stigma involved.
00:38:06:06 - 00:38:23:20
Unknown
It's going to be embarrassing. Whereas actually if you're in an environment where there aren't any labels there, where stuff is predominant for your children, but also might help you a bit, it just it remove some of those barriers, you're able to do it, you're able to see other people doing it. There aren't big signs on the door, you know, big kind of requirements of where you have to go in to do what to do.
00:38:23:21 - 00:38:43:11
Unknown
You know, you don't need any particular qualifications to do anything. You can come in for little kickers and then think, I'm going to go to this everyday maths class and see what that looks like, you know? Or I've been having trouble breastfeeding but didn't want to go to a clinic about it. But I can see that there's a couple of people in that room that look quite nice, and there's stuff for my kids to play with, so I don't need to worry about that.
00:38:43:12 - 00:39:05:13
Unknown
And I think that is it's just it's being there in a community. It's reflecting the community around you so you don't feel like you're an outsider and it's being kind of warm and loving and open, which is which is an environment all of us enjoy being outside. The second I was in there, my God was down mission. I had flashbacks of kind of soft play and things of my own inadequacies getting stuck in, you know, ball pits and that kind of thing.
00:39:05:13 - 00:39:27:00
Unknown
you get there and you think, I feel I feel kind of calm and it takes a lot to feel calm. And you've got 200 kids, you know, shouting and screaming and running around. But it is it that environment is such an asset because then you can look at that and think, gosh, there's there's other things that we could be doing to support that community because as you said, probably you might really overindex on low financial resilience in that group.
00:39:27:00 - 00:39:44:14
Unknown
So what are the things you could do to maybe help start a conversation, around what are some of the kind of money worries around that could be about education? It could be a whole host of things. But but that warmth and that asset I think is, is is is tough to build, tough to replicate. The seems you've got a really good formula for it.
00:39:44:16 - 00:39:50:23
Unknown
Thank you Alex. We're really proud of what we built. I guess I'll finish up with a few kind of rapid fire questions, if that's all right.
00:39:51:00 - 00:39:59:08
Unknown
So if, if, you know, if you have one message for a parent listening, about, you know, might be worried about money, what would your message be?
00:39:59:10 - 00:40:01:04
Unknown
Cut yourself some slack.
00:40:01:06 - 00:40:34:12
Unknown
I think it's tough. You know, the, the juggling you have to do as a parent, the balancing act between keeping yourself going, keeping a family going isn't easy. And so not to pile too much pressure on yourself, I think, is really key. I wish I'd I wish I'd been better at that. And when my kids were younger, when I was a parent for the first time, and the other message would be to talk about it, I think, you know, one of the big challenges, we just we just suffer in silence often, you know, particularly around money matters, just talking to someone about it, you'll find shared experiences.
00:40:34:12 - 00:40:51:10
Unknown
You'll find people who've maybe tackled things in a way you hadn't thought of. And even if it isn't of much practical value, just getting it off your chest, normalizing it, getting it out there is really a key step in being able to tackle, you know, some of those money worries in the future.
00:40:51:12 - 00:41:07:15
Unknown
And then I guess on the other side of that coin, what is the thing that the financial services sector consistently misjudges families about? What is it that the financial services sector should know about these families that you work with and think about, to a great extent,
00:41:07:17 - 00:41:22:16
Unknown
I think sometimes you hear thrown about this, this kind of expression that, you know, particularly folk on low income, you know, it's a financial capability thing. It's a financial literacy. You know, people need to be more capable with their money.
00:41:22:18 - 00:41:24:16
Unknown
All of my experience,
00:41:24:18 - 00:41:44:22
Unknown
or the majority of my experience has shown that, you know, when you're on a low income, when money is really tight, you're the most tenacious and effective budget it because every penny has to work really hard. And so sometimes it can feel a bit kind of paternalistic that we're just going to teach people to be, you know, you can't you can't budget your way out of poverty.
00:41:45:00 - 00:42:06:01
Unknown
You know, it just it doesn't work in that way. So I think it's about thinking about how some of the products and the services that you provide within financial service or any sector, in fact, might be able to support people thinking about some of the barriers of why they might not be using them and perhaps think of some incentives that might help them kind of start habits.
00:42:06:05 - 00:42:15:01
Unknown
Is it really is a really important step to take. So it's kind of building on their assets and strengths rather than seeing what they've got as kind of some deficit in one area the other.
00:42:15:03 - 00:42:18:07
Unknown
Brant, thank you so much, Alex. Thank you so much for joining us today.
00:42:18:10 - 00:42:19:21
Unknown
Thanks for
00:42:19:23 - 00:42:41:19
Unknown
What I'm taking from this conversation is something that we don't say often enough. The early years are not just a health issue or an education issue. They're an economic issue. And that financial insecurity doesn't just affect what a family can buy, it affects what a parent can be. The stress of not knowing whether you can cover the bills that weight can.
00:42:41:19 - 00:43:15:07
Unknown
The mental load of juggling volatile income against fixed costs, the guilt of reaching for a screen because you're too exhausted? These are not failures of parenting. They're consequences of a system that doesn't support families when it matters most. Well, Alex and the AVEVA Foundation is showing us at the financial world and the early as well need each other that a parent who understands their entitlements, that has a buffer and resilience against the next crisis, who feels in control of their financial life, that parent is more confident, more able to do the things that help their children's brains develop.
00:43:15:09 - 00:43:27:13
Unknown
Alex, thank you for joining me, and thank you all for listening to Best Beginnings, A Baby's Own podcast. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might need it. We'll see you next time.
00:43:27:14 - 00:43:27:21
Unknown
We.