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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
The phrase, the children are the future. Mhmm. Tell me your thoughts on that phrase.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I used to love that. But, okay, the children are our future, but we baptize them now. That's right. Right? We don't baptize them when they're 18.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:We baptize them now, so they're part of the church now. They're part of the sacramental life now. When we tell the kids that you're the future, is that just telling them to sit around and wait? Yeah. Sit around and wait, and when we need you, we'll call on you and and let you come in.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:He doesn't say, you know, when they're 18, let them come to me.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's right.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right? That's right. Bring the children to me, and that's the church. So they are the church of now. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:They're the church of right now. We're going to lose a whole generation of children if we don't give them ownership of the church.
Michelle Moujaes:Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring the church's timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Moujaes. Okay. Here's a confession before we get started. When my children were younger and when I thought about them and their life in the church, I always used to picture the four of them just, you know, standing at the chanter stand, like, all lined up in a row.
Michelle Moujaes:Or I dream about the future, picturing who they become. Like, would they be ministry leaders or youth directors? Or maybe they'd be choir members and Sunday school teachers. Maybe they'd be camp counselors, or maybe they'd even be parish council president. It was this kind of fun little game that I play in my head.
Michelle Moujaes:But guess what happened? During COVID, my seven year old daughter went to our priest on her own and asked him if she could help him with something. So at the time, you know, there were all these rules and masks and gloves, and all the holy bread in our church was being passed out in plastic bags so that we could follow all the COVID rules. But my daughter noticed that people were taking those plastic bags and just throwing them away with the crumbs of blessed bread still in them. And so she went to our priest and asked him if she could collect the bags and shake out the crumbs in the garden so that they didn't end up in the trash.
Michelle Moujaes:It was her own ministry at seven. And what I realized really quickly was that somewhere in all the dreaming I had been doing, I forgot to ask a much simpler question, which is what are my children invited into now? Not someday, today. If you've ever caught yourself saying, well, when you're older, you can help with that to a kid who was fully capable of helping right now, then today's episode is for you. We're talking about why our kids don't have to wait to matter to their parish, what real ownership looks like at every age, and why this conversation is honestly just really fun.
Michelle Moujaes:Because watching a kid light up over using the gifts God gave them to serve the entire body of Christ, that's one of the best parts of Orthodox Parenting. So today, we're talking about that ownership instead of obligation, belonging instead of attendance, and now instead of someday. Be sure to download the free digital discussion guide linked in the show notes so that you can take this conversation home to your own family and dig deeper. My guest today has a background that still surprises people. Before he was a priest, he was working in film production in Hollywood, Universal Studios, DreamWorks, and then he traded all of that for Holy Cross Seminary and a career and a vocation in the priesthood.
Michelle Moujaes:He met his wife, and I might add one of my all time favorite people, Presbyteria Christie, at a parish summer camp back in 1992. Well, today, he leads that same parish. Father Gary Kyriacou is the dean of Saint Sophia Greek Orthodox Cathedral in Los Angeles, one of the largest and busiest Greek Orthodox parishes in the country. And just a call out, Saint Sophia's and especially the Saint Sophia Foundation are great supporters of Faith Tree Resources and this podcast, so we are grateful to them. Father and Pres Christie have three beautiful kids of their own, Harrison, Jacob, and Elena.
Michelle Moujaes:Like his wife, father Gary is also one of my dear friends. Father Gary, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad that you're here with us.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I'm happy to be here. Thank you for having me.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. So before we get into our topic for today, just... You gotta tell me a little bit about you and your beautiful bride and how you ended up or at least what it felt like to get back as the dean of the church that you grew up in.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:You know what's funny is that I keep pinching myself about being the dean of the cathedral that I worked at, but be... Only because I'm serving the families that that sent me to seminary. Like, are the people that
Michelle Moujaes:That's something.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:That inspired me to go. Sunday school teachers, camp counselors, camp directors, coworkers, basketball coaches. These are all people that shaped my childhood, and now I'm back as the dean of the cathedral that sent me there. And, I would really say that without the cathedral, I think I would have been lost in my life. Don't mean...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah. And I really... I say that often, and and I'm thrilled that I get to come back and give back to the place that shaped me and formed me.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that. I mean, that ties perfectly into what we're talking about today. So what did that look like?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:You know, I had some great clergy leadership and great youth mentors growing up that would say things like, okay. Go ahead and do that. If I came up with an idea or said something, let's let's do this or let's do that. And they would say, go ahead and do it.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, I love it.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Long before the voluntold became something that, you know, was mainstay, that was what was happening a lot with the different ministries that we had at the cathedral. And I learned it from a very young age that if you wanted to make something happen, you could make it happen. And that if you were serious about it, there there would be support for it as well.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it too because it it kind of insinuates that you had a culture of... I don't know if it's trust or safety where you could go to your leaders and be like, hey. I see a need. Can we try this out?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:It's exactly it's exactly what it was. Yeah. I love And I learned that from a very young age, not only from my mentors and leaders and clergy, but from my parents as well. It's like make something happen. Don't just sit around.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. I love that so much.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Get get it going.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So... Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, that's so good. Okay. So we've talked about the phrase the children are the future. Mhmm. Tell me tell me your thoughts on that phrase.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I used to love that. Yeah. I would think that's so inspiring. That's great. Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:But, okay, the children are our future, but we baptize them now. That's right. Right? We don't baptize them when they're 18. We baptize them now, so they're part of the church now.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:They're part of the sacramental life now. When we tell the kids that you're the future, is that just telling them to sit around and wait? Yeah. Sit around and wait, and when we need you, we'll we'll call on you and and let you come in. When I'm looking right over your shoulder at the icon of Christ and calling the children to him, he doesn't say, you know, when they're 18, let them come to me.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's right. Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:That's right. Bring the children to me, and that's the church. So they are the church of now. Yeah. They're the church of right now, And we need to start realizing that and putting that into effect because we're going to lose a whole generation of of of children if we don't give them ownership of the church.
Michelle Moujaes:So what would that look like? Tell me then.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Making them feel responsible for the stewardship of the church. And what I mean is... I I love saying this because you're ethnic as well. If our ancestors came to this country and didn't establish the Orthodox churches, they could have easily blended in with and assimilated with all the other denominations that were here. Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:But one thing that was very important to all of our ancestors was their Orthodox faith, and so they established their Orthodox parishes here. I feel responsible for carrying on that torch that they brought here to this new land so that we could have the Orthodox faith in this country. Here in America, the Orthodox church is something very special that exceeds beyond just religious formation. I feel like it has to do with the entire personal formation of the purse... Of of of the child.
Michelle Moujaes:So if you're talking to parents as they're trying to create that drive for responsibility or or really an understanding of the weightiness of the gift that we've all been given in the Orthodox Church, what would your advice be for them?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Well, that's hard because if you don't get the parents to buy in on it, you can't get the kids to buy in on it. 100%. So how often do you see, like, for basketball practice or Greek dance practice, the the cars pulling in at 12:15 and the kids jumping out, and what's the message we're telling them there? That it's important to be there on time for basketball practice and dance practice, but you can miss liturgy. So Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:You have to go back a little bit and kind of get the parents buy in on it. And so I think that the important part is that we clergy need to express the love and the authenticity and and the beauty of the divine liturgy and what that means and that everything else in the parish is an extension of the divine liturgy. So there's nothing without the divine liturgy. I really feel like we need to substitute entertaining our kids to nourishing them, and I think that's where we need to get the parents to buy in on that. There's too many outside influences that push our kids in different directions, and I know that all of our parents and every every child's parent wants their child to grow up and be successful, but there's no success without a great faith foundation.
Michelle Moujaes:A 100% agree. So what would it look like then to have a child who not only attends the church, but actually belongs? The the the... They call it my church. This is my church.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Mhmm. Not the church that I go to or the church that my parents bring me to or the church that my grandfather built or... Right? My grandfather built this church or my grandfather did this. I hear that all the time.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah. Yeah. He's like, that's great. Your grandfather did, but what did you do? Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:That's so true.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I hear it all the time. My grandfather did this. He went here. He did that. He built this building, built that building.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:It's like, that's great. Thank you for your grandfather, but what have you done?
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And so ownership is really important. So there's a lot of lot of times there's parish council members or ushers at the cathedral that say, you know, my daughter really wants to help me pass the tray, or my daughter really wants to work behind the candles, or my son wants to... You know, doesn't wanna come in the altar, but he'd like to stand at the chanter stand. Is is that okay? And the answer is absolutely.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Mhmm. Whatever they wanna do, have them go do that. They wanna work in the bookstore, or, can they teach Sunday school at sixteen rather than be a Sunday school student? My answer to that is yes. How...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:You... What better way to learn than to teach? Right? And so there's ways to just get the children involved immediately to make them feel like they're... This is an extension of who they are, not what they're, like, a part of, but like an extension of the body of Christ.
Michelle Moujaes:They're offering their giftings and their spiritual gifts that God
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:gave them. Simple as is letting them run the, the booth or the Yiddoh booth of the Greek festival Mhmm. Or letting them work the snack bar at the basketball game.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right? Letting them do something and giving them the trust and the responsibility to know that they can do it.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I think it's really interesting too because I know for myself, at at the top of this episode, I talked about my daughter who at the time was so little. She was seven years old, and we're in the middle of COVID, and she saw a need. And thank god our priest was like, yep. Fill it.
Michelle Moujaes:Let's do it. And it kinda became her thing. And I felt so encouraged because, to be honest, a lot of the ministry roles that I saw my kids in in future years were just ones that I knew about or ones that I had done or that I would be inclined to do. But when I started seeing her offering on her, you know, her own volition, she took kind of the move and said, well, gotta do something. It changed the paradigm for me a little bit because I think sometimes we don't tap into where maybe God is leading our kids.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:But do you see how... I wanna I wanna point out. If you go back before she said that, somewhere she was taught that the crumbs are important, that the crumbs can't be thrown away. Mhmm. So somewhere somehow somebody taught her a lesson that resonated with her, that sat And there with her.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So it was you, it was Walid, it was your your mother, Walid's mother, somebody... Sunday school teacher, somebody influenced her to remind her that the crumbs are important. You just don't throw them away. You put them out for the birds. Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:My grandmother used to take the crumbs from the bread and put it on the back of her head. I She did? Why? I don't know. My grandmother just did it.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And I was like, must be important and might make you smart, but you didn't just throw it away. Right? Like, you can just dump it in the trash. So you're... So what I'm saying is that our kids learn from the things that we do and we say and we...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And and and what we practice. And so somewhere your daughter realized that it was important, and she and and she filled that need. Right? What are the many lessons that we're teaching our kids with our actions?
Michelle Moujaes:Really good. Like, are we teaching our children that this is a sacred space? This is our home Right. And that we love this place and we take care of it.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:A priest once told me that that his son caught him in his morning routine reading his bible and doing his thing, and the son said to him, dad, why are you reading that book over and over again? Why do you read it over and over again? And the priest said, because it's the living word of God. Right? And and that was the...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:That kid's understanding of how important reading the bible is. That you don't just read it once and you put it down like, you know, a novel that you pick up, but it... You you study the word of God. And so do our kids see us doing that? Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:You know? Do our kids see us licking things? I love that you've printed your books and everything, and it's great to have them on an app on the phone.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:But when somebody's looking at their phone, don't know what they're looking at.
Michelle Moujaes:So true.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right? And they could very well be looking at your app that has this book on it.
Michelle Moujaes:I know, but it
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:is tricky. If I'm opening this book and I'm holding this book, you know exactly what I'm looking at.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. Right? Yeah. That's true.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:We see all kinds of people on their phones, and we just automatically assume that they're on social media or they're or they're scrolling through something or they're reading something. But we need to somehow... I don't know if there needs to be a light on the back of the phone or something that says, I'm doing... I'm praying right now. Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And so we we we... Our kids really need to see us doing that. Like, do you cross yourself before you leave the house? Do you cross yourself as you put your seat belt on when... In in the car?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Mhmm. Are are you saying little prayers here and there? Right? Are you showing frustration at the supermarket, or are you showing genuine love? These are the lessons that we teach our kids and how they implement those things as they go in their lives.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I I know it's it's more than just serving the church, but it's it's it's more like serving Christ and serving his people and being part of it and and what they can do. The the... Jesus blessed the five loaves and the two fish, but where did he get them from? Mhmm. From a boy.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, that's so good. That's right.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right? From Yeah. From a child.
Michelle Moujaes:And I think I think setting the expectation. I wanna go back to a word that you said ownership, but I think that's really important. Define that for us and tell us a little bit, like, sometimes that could have kind of a... I don't wanna say pejorative sense, but, like, something where it's like ours and we take it. Reconcile us with that word.
Michelle Moujaes:Think I think...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I I appreciate you saying that because I think that that does does give that impression, and I would I would say more of stewardship. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Taking making taking care of it.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right? Like preserving it. Mhmm. The boy scouts have a great motto, leave leave it better than you found it. And I I always think about that, like, in every situation, every ministry, every every, encounter that you have, did you leave it better than you found it?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Is the person better off for having met you than you having run into them and being a, you know, a brute of a of an of an influence rather than an inspiration. So I think that having stewardship of it makes them feel like they're responsible for it, that if they don't do something, that it's gonna falter.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. You know? Is it fair to say that should be an expectation that parents have with their kids?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I think it should be an expectation that everybody has Yeah. That's a member of the church. I do too. Absolutely.
Michelle Moujaes:One of my kids, when he was in high school and said, I really wanna be an altar boy anymore. Mhmm. And I said, okay. Well, what are you gonna be? Like, you gotta do something.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Gotta do It's their home.
Michelle Moujaes:So what's it gonna be? Exactly. And I think inviting our kids to know that that is what it means to be a part a part of the body of Christ.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Expectation in your household. Right? Yeah. Like, the expectation when... In in my household was we had dinner together as often as we could.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah. And when we had dinner together, the TV was off. Yeah. Right? Unless it was the Dodgers in the world series.
Michelle Moujaes:Such a Dodgers family. Yeah. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:It's good. But but the the the point being is that is that there's expectations that we set. What are the expectations?
Michelle Moujaes:And so I'm just gonna drill in on this. It's fair to say that parents... Like, let's have expectation that our kids are participating in the life of the church and as part of the body, whether that's serving in a way, cleaning, reading, teaching, chanting, something. They don't get to be passive bystanders as part of the body.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:No. But, I mean, but let's not discount the fact that that standing in the pews and praying is being a participant as well.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, okay.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right? So let's not discount that because I don't want somebody to say, well, you know, the comments at the bottom of this episode with people saying,
Michelle Moujaes:you know, they
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:can pray. So it's it's it's great. But what I'm talking about, I'm talking about active participation in the church, which can be cleaning the crumbs from the bread Mhmm. Could be serving in the bookstore, could be doing chanting, all the things that you just said, but could also be a big witness of somebody that stands in the church and prays. And, like, you...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Whenever a service begins, you look and there's Bobby. Bobby's always there
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:At the service, and that's his witness. That's his stewardship to the church that you know that... You know, when I was at a smaller parish, I would get nervous that people weren't gonna show up. But I... Like, is this the day that nobody shows up?
Michelle Moujaes:Oh my gosh.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right?
Michelle Moujaes:I would never think about the priest thinking about that, but
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I can see it. Like, you're you're putting wine in, you're wondering how much wine to put into the the chalice to get ready for the service, and you're like, don't put too much. Yeah. Yeah. Too little.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:You know? And and so... But having... Knowing that Gideon Sofia and and missus, you know, Johnson are gonna be sitting in the in the pews at every parrot at every service for your parish. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:It's an amazing consolation for service and for... Not a consolation, but, like, just knowing that it's gonna happen like a cons... Like a constant.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love that. I mean, what I hear you saying is engagement. That's what it is. It's just engagement.
Michelle Moujaes:It's not necessarily a formula where everyone will look the same or you have to have a certain number of tasks that you contribute to the broader parish community, but it has to be that you're a full participant on the path struggling with the people in the community.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I'm telling you that when I first became a priest, every priest conversation started with, hi, what's your name? What parish are you at? How many families do you have? That was the that was the order of the conversation. Okay.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Now many years later, hi. What's your name? What parish are you at? How many converts are you bringing into the church every year? Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:They're coming in. I've made it a point with the inspiration of my predecessor, Bacchus, and my coworker, father The Maschinos, to make the catechumens entering the church graft themselves into a ministry before they're accepted by chrismation.
Michelle Moujaes:Wow. To their part.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:You need to be... You need to graft yourself in somewhere. And I'm not telling you where, and I'm not telling you how, I'm not necessarily telling him... I'm telling them that directly. But when people...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:When they're coming to every catechism class, when they're coming to bible study, when they're coming to every service, and then they look at me and they go, when are you gonna chrismate me? When are you... Is this your church? Do you still feel like you're visiting this church, or do you feel like you own this church? Well, it's a huge church.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah. But it's still your church. Mhmm. It's gonna be your church. You're gonna be part of the life and the body of this church.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So how are you gonna graft yourself in? And they find ways. I mean, they join the choir. They lead... They take part in Focus.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Mhmm. Mhmm. They do all kinds of ministries, and it doesn't need to be a ministry for the cathedral. It's a ministry for the church. Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Mhmm. So tell me how you're gonna serve the church, and let's graft you in and be part of it. Because this is not just, you know, the flavor of the day or, you know, 31 flavors of the month. This is the rest of your life.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right?
Michelle Moujaes:What about... Have you ever had a miss where it didn't go really well?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yes.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, great. I like those stories.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I wanted a young person to lead like a like a lesson, like a teaching, like a bring them together kind of thing, and I thought this young person could do it, and, it fell it it fell flat. The kid was... You know how we get into quantity over quality? Mhmm. And so there weren't...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:When there weren't 15 people or more, it was a failure in this kid's eyes, and he didn't wanna do it if they were less than. And I mean, if if one kid shows up, if one person shows up to bible study, I'll sit and do bible study with that one person.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. I actually... I was on a plane last night, and I was reading this book called Mastery, which was by this guy who... I think he used to write for, like, Esquire magazine or something. He's he's passed now.
Michelle Moujaes:He's probably 100 years old now if he was alive today. But he was a master of aikido, which is like a martial art
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:But like a really hard one. And he was talking about how we have lost the ability in this country to enjoy the pass and the practice. And that we're so trying to dominate and lead. And and I actually... My husband and I, in our house, we call it winner winner chicken dinner.
Michelle Moujaes:Uh-huh. Like, you don't have to win at everything. Okay. You're a winner. It's amazing.
Michelle Moujaes:You rock. You're the queen. But let's go back to where we actually appreciate that process, and we build those relationships. And so I think it's a good call out that even if there's one, you do it too.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Have to because that one person showed up, it's important to them. Right? And so... But but this kid in that ministry felt like they were a failure because they didn't get, you know, 15, 20 people each time.
Michelle Moujaes:Well, that actually raises a good question. So tell me about this. Are there things that need to be qualified? Like, heard you say if someone wants to teach, you'll put them in there. Or I'm I'm super...
Michelle Moujaes:And I do have the privilege of serving in my own parish with some of the ministries, but I'm really... I handpick everyone, I think, or my priest handpicks them, and then I implement, if you will. But I wonder as parents, like, are there some things that we should kinda push our kids away from or towards?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Think it's important that we identify their their talents and what they can do and not make them do something that they're not comfortable doing or or they don't wanna do. Right? My wife started what's called the Merbearers at the cathedral, which is an extension of what she created at Saint Dimitrios when we were in Camarillo as well. And she gathers the young ladies to read. They read the the epistle passage.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:They read the gospel... Not the gospel. Sorry. They read the epistle passage.
Michelle Moujaes:You guys are progressive at Saint Sophia.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:They read the epistle passage. They read the the the creed. They read the Lord's Prayer, the communion prayers, and she lines them up to do that. And we're not gonna make a young person get up there and do it if they don't want to. Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I wanted to put them front and center, and and she came back to me and said, no. They wanna be back with the chander stand. So there's little things that you do that you don't make them feel uncomfortable doing it. But, yeah, you don't just grab somebody off the street and say you're gonna teach, or you don't just let somebody who wants to teach, teach. You you You have
Michelle Moujaes:to identify them. The fit.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:You vet them and make sure that it works and that they do what they wanna do. You know, father Damaschinos, who's who's my associate at the cathedral, is is from Greece, and he's wonderful. I And keep telling him, I want you to do this. I want you to do that. And he comes...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:He pushes back, and he says, I'm not I'm not comfortable doing that just yet. Let me... And and I get it. And I... And...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:But when I see what he is comfortable with, we tap into those talents. And, I mean, the guy's amazing in the things that he does, and and he's amazing in the things that he's not good at either because he he just lets the love of God shine through him. Right? And that's the whole point is how do you inspire somebody to let the love of God shine through them? What is it that you wanna do?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Because it's not just about doing something. It's about transformation. Right? It's about how this is gonna transform the person, how it's gonna transform the parish, how it's gonna transform the people that encounter this person.
Michelle Moujaes:Got it.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And so what are you doing? How are you doing it?
Michelle Moujaes:So when you and Christie were, raising your kids, I know they're all a little older now, what what would that look like as you were trying to cultivate in them? Because I will tell you, with the exception of the holy bread and the plastic bags, like, I don't know that Waleed and I were ever really intentional about trying to cultivate our children's spiritual gifts or their service to the church. It was more like you're doing that because, you know, we're doing a food drive on Saturday and we're going.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:But I would say that you gotta give yourself a little bit more credit. You're hard on yourself. Yeah. Okay. Fair.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Fair. Because you
Michelle Moujaes:He knows me.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah. Because you because you know that when when you show your children that something is important Yeah. They know that it's important to you, so it's gonna be important to them as well. Right? Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:But I'll give you a stupid story, but when the Giants won the World Series several years ago, my son came downstairs crying. And I was like, it's not that big of a deal. I was like, it's okay. They they needed to win after fifty years of not winning. And he was like, no.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Because you're such a Dodgers fan and and the Giants won. And and I was like, it's not that important. You know what I mean? Like, don't don't put that importance He felt it. He felt it.
Michelle Moujaes:Right? Oh, I love that story.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So the kids are gonna know what's important to us and what what what is great and what what goes. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:Paul and Cindy Kyriacoujaes have an upcoming book called Raising Orthodox Christians that Parenting is producing, and they talk a lot about where you climb, your children will climb. They never stray far from the path.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Well, great people to write a book like that
Michelle Moujaes:too. Right? Oh, just wait. Yeah. So
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So many parents I look at and say, should write a book.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. These these are they should write a book and they did. It's
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:awesome. Good.
Michelle Moujaes:Good. So God willing in just a few months.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Glad to hear that. But here, when my when my sons turned... When when I got to Camarillo, my boys were three and four. Elena was just a twinkle in my eye. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:But my boys were three and four. And the rule at at Saint Demetrios was they had to be 12 years old to get in the altar. And I was like, no way I'm waiting eight years for my boys to go in the altar. So I said, if they can stand still, they can be in the altar.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, nice.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So I took my five and six year old
Michelle Moujaes:Oh my gosh.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Into the altar with me, and and they loved it. Jacob, more so than Harrison. Harrison enjoyed going to the chanter stand and reading. Nice. And he was great at reading at six years old.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:It was wonderful to have him read. Right? They continued to do that until one day, like you said, Harrison came and said, I don't wanna serve in the altar anymore. And literally, his mom, Christie, said, well, what are you gonna do?
Michelle Moujaes:I love it.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right? Just like... I mean, it was like parallel with exactly what you said. If you're not gonna do that, you gotta do something.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that. So parents, really, the call out is to be actively pursuing the encouragement of something for your kids. Because I do think we do that where we let some people opt out of parish life fully, and they just get to be there and kind of, for lack of a better word, consume. And then other people are in the middle of the hustle and carrying eight jobs. But that doesn't feel really healthy.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:But I'm really... I'm realizing it in a couple of different ways. The first one is, you know, being raised at the cathedral
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I was part of a community that was large, but within the large community was smaller communities of ministries that made it feel like a smaller parish. I didn't realize how large the cathedral was until I was assigned to Saint Dimitriac in Camarillo, where that was a small parish.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And that's where... When a new person walked in, you knew that they were new. Right? Because they had Right. And so then that person was grafted into the parish and then given the opportunity to serve and to do things.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I think what happens is when you when you have a large parish especially, people get lost in the crowd, and they figure somebody else is gonna do it.
Michelle Moujaes:I know.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And I keep telling them that somebody else died. Somebody else doesn't go to church anymore. There's no somebody else.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. It's And
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:so you gotta do it. You gotta be part of it.
Michelle Moujaes:And, you know, I would encourage parents to take ownership of that, if you will, as they guide their kids. And let me give you an example. So I have a relatively new goddaughter. She's about my age, but she came to the church just a few years ago, and her name is Joyce. I have never seen a woman jump feet first.
Michelle Moujaes:So she studied Orthodoxy for three or four years before she ever came, Then she came. But as she went through the process to integrate into our parish, I mean, she's everywhere doing everything with abandon. She's not making excuses why she's not ready yet, why she can't serve yet, why... You know, she's apart now, and she's giving wholeheartedly. And does that mean that she has to do everything and exhaust herself?
Michelle Moujaes:No. But does it mean maybe as parents, we can learn from that example and say, don't wait. Don't be shy. Go find out how you can serve. Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:That's exactly it.
Michelle Moujaes:I would say I would say that's a good call out for parents because it's easy to be passive.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Or It's your church.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. It's your church. Yeah. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:It's not somebody else's church. It's it's your church. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:And it's That's a good way to say
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:it. To do do something. You know, mean Good way to say it. I'm I'm really inspired by political leaders like Abraham Lincoln is my favorite and John f Kennedy and stuff. But John f Kennedy asks not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Ask... Don't ask what your church can do for you. Ask what your... You can do for your church. Father Bachus tells a great story, and people, you know, maybe a little bit tired of hearing it, but it's it's poignant.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:No. No. I wanna hear it.
Michelle Moujaes:It's great.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right? Father Bacoujaes said there are people that wear aprons and there are people that wear bibs. And he said at the cathedral, we need people that wear aprons because the people that wear bibs are the people that feed me, feed me, feed me, give me, me, me. Right? People that wear aprons are prepared to serve.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Mhmm. I'm here to serve you. So are you gonna wear an apron or are you gonna wear a bib? And I want people that wear aprons.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. And it actually insinuates a little bit of... It's a maturity issue.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Exactly. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love that.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:How old do have to be to... I never think about that part of the story, but that's even
Michelle Moujaes:so good. Yeah. I like that, father.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And it's also the chicken the chicken and the pig that go... That are walking by and looking for a church to serve. And they... The chicken chooses the one that serves bacon and eggs every morning. And the pig says, I don't wanna go to that church.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And the and the chicken says, why? And the pig says, because all you have to do is offer. I have to sacrifice.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh. Right? Oh, that's so good. Right. So one of the things I always think about is if we think of the church truly as the body of Christ, we are part of a family.
Michelle Moujaes:Like, my family wouldn't function very well if some people just showed up with a bib and a plate waiting to be fed and served. And then, you know, maybe Walid and I were the only ones who were doing all the things. I mean, outside of the fact that it's exhausting and it's not how we would wanna design our household, the relationship suffers. Then you have someone who's being served and someone who's serving as opposed to us all serving each other for the greater good, which feels like... I mean, that's what God invites us into in the church.
Michelle Moujaes:Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Totally. And and you know what's funny is that even the the simplest things like getting family dinner together... I remember Christie at a at a at a very young age for the kids was like, you guys can get the forks.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's right.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:You guys can get the napkins.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. Do you remember father Angelo Artemis? Yes. Love god. And one time I went, and I think for some reason my mom was with me.
Michelle Moujaes:We went to their house for dinner, and the table was set, and it was like a disaster. Like, the fork was sideways and the napkin was crumpled and everything was a bit of a... It wasn't like when you would have people over that you would formally set a table. But I remember father Angelo said, didn't she do such a good job? Maria did this table, which was his daughter.
Michelle Moujaes:And at the time, she was like five. Didn't she do a great job setting the table? I was like, she did. But it was her offering. She tried to participate, which I love.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:That that... That's that's a great story and a great example of what our children need to do for the church. Yeah. Right? That it's not gonna be beautiful.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:It's not gonna be perfect. It's not gonna be, you know, exquisite, but it's gonna it's gonna be the effort. It's gonna be the love that is put into it. Yeah. And and how...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Bless his memory.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. Bless his
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:memory. She's one of priests that inspired me to go to seminary.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He he he was something.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Did he give a sermon once? I'd never... Just... He he asked me to name 12 wrestlers.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:The WW... Back then it was WWF wrestlers, and I was able to pop up pop up pop. And he said, name the 12 disciples. Oh. And I was like,
Michelle Moujaes:See, that's before the chosen. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right.
Michelle Moujaes:Now we have the chosen, so I remember them all. Okay. So then let me ask you this. As parents, what are some things you would call out that would be, although well intentioned, probably not helpful as we're trying to lead our kids to participate fully in the life of the church?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I would I would say it it would be not helpful when we speak poorly of the church in the home.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, so good, father. Yes.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Don't don't speak poorly of the church. The priest is not perfect. Yeah. I'm not perfect. And and the the...
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:When and when we did find somebody perfect, we put them on a cross. Yeah. Right? So don't speak poorly of the church at home. Know that everybody in the church, for the most part, is doing what they can to make the church better.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So if you disagree with what somebody's doing in the church, try to look at the bigger picture and realize that. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:That's good.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And don't don't let your children see division or or contradictions in the home. I think those are the most important things. I also think that what's important about our Orthodox Church is that there's a hierarchy. Mhmm. We were talking about converts and catechumens before.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:That's the that's the major point for a lot of them is getting over the hierarchy of moving away from the authority of the scripture to the authority of the church and how that comes together. Right? And I I think that there needs... We need to show respect for the church. Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Like, when I was a kid, when the priest walked in the room, we stood up. Mhmm. Now I'm not looking... I'm not saying that for anybody to stand up when I walk in the room. Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:When I was a kid, there was no doubt that you tried to kiss the priest's hand. Right? Now when the metropolitan or the archbishop walk in the room, the kids are like, hey, bud. How are you?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah. Yeah. And... Or when somebody addresses the the the the archbishop and the and the metropolitan or, you know, they go, hey, guys. We just wanna say this.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:We need to show reverence for these positions. Right? Not because we're holy people. We try... We're trying to be holy, but we represent Christ.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I would say that's an area where I'm so thankful to my husband because, listen, I say all the things to all the people. I... Them an open book for the most part. But what's helpful to be married to someone like Walid who really is, he loves peace more than anything.
Michelle Moujaes:He is just such a humble guy that way. Yeah. Like Christy. This balances everything
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:new. Right.
Michelle Moujaes:See? But it's helpful for me to remember, like, really an advantage talking about all that stuff. Because what the kids I think pick up is if something happens at church and I'm hurt by it or, you know, totally irritated, then they have to bear that burden, and they have to manage my emotions as opposed to... You know what I mean?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:The Giants winning the World Series.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, that's exactly what it is. That's right. That's right. That's right.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:The Giants winning the World Series. And and it's... And so you put that on your child, and it's like, it's not your responsibility. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah. And so there's things that can happen in the church that we misinterpret and we misunderstand Mhmm. And that we don't, you know, realize that that we get... One of my pet peeves is people moving during the liturgy.
Michelle Moujaes:Like Like moving... Like walking outside? Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Oh, moving. And so I I I just said, look at the rule at the cathedral, and it was the same rule that was at Camarillo. It's the same rule that father Tom of blessed memory had it in Oakland. When the priest is facing the people, don't move.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah. When my back is to you, do whatever you want.
Michelle Moujaes:You gotta do for yourself.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:When I'm facing the people, when the priest is facing the people, don't move. Just stay still. Right? And so why do I bring that up? Because because it's a reverence thing.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And you you talk about what's the most important thing that parents can do is is is show the reverence for the church. You know?
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Alright. One more question, and then we'll ask you some some listener questions that came through. Is it ever inappropriate for a parent to really push their kid? Like, if a kid doesn't wanna participate?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Don't make the kid feel uncomfortable. Yeah. But I think that the the kid needs to realize that that this is part of what we do as a family.
Michelle Moujaes:This is the gig.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I mean, think about it. If you're if you're a family that enjoys eating dinner together at the table and your kid says, I'm not comfortable sitting there, are you gonna let them take their food and go sit in their room by themselves? You're not. Mm-mm. You're gonna say, you need to sit
Michelle Moujaes:We do.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah. Right? So at some point, you need to... There needs to be be a line in the sand that says this is what we do as a family. I have a great story.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I... I'll try to tell it as as quickly as possible, but when I got to the age where I was able to work, I got a great job at Universal Studios right at... Right out of high school. And I I was in college, and I was making great money at Universal, and I was thrilled to be working there. And I thought this is the perfect path for what I wanna do in my life.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And, one Sunday morning, my family got up and they're getting ready to go to church, and I came down with my pajamas. My dad said, what are you doing? And I was like, oh, I have to work today. And he said, you're working today. And I say, because it's Sunday.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And I said, I know, but I don't make my schedule. You know, I got this job at Universal, they need me to work today. He said, okay. So they go to church, and then they come back. And as they're coming back at 12:30, I'm just leaving for work.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And my dad goes, you're just leaving now? And I said, yeah. And he goes, no. No. No.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:No. Yeah. He said he said, the expectation, as long as you're living in this house, is that on Sunday mornings, we go to church. I said, yeah, but but I'm working. He said, not not till 12:30?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:He goes, you have plenty of time to go to the liturgy and at least hear the gospel. And then go, that's the expectation.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that so much.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So the expectation is this is what you do when you live with me, because this is the expectation what you're gonna do when you don't live with me. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:I love it.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Make your bed every morning. Mhmm. Why? Because that's the expectation you're gonna do when you're living on your own. I'm not gonna be there to make your bed for you in the morning.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right?
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Brush your teeth when you wake up and go to and go to sleep. That that... The sick expectation. What are the expectations we have for our kids? And that's what that's what you should push for.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. I love that. I love that. And with joy. And with joy.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Right? That you're being invited into the good life.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right. When we talk about expectations, what's the expectation? We're talking about our souls forever.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. That's right.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:We're talking about forever. Yeah. We're we're not just talking about, like, next Sunday. Yeah. We're not talking about last Tuesday.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:We're talking about eternity.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And and and let me just say this. If we're wrong and there's... And I know that there is, but if we're wrong and there isn't, what's the harm in living the way that Jesus tells us to live?
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:To live sacramentally? What... How beautiful of a life is it to live sacramental?
Michelle Moujaes:Right. That's right.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Right? You don't just do it so that you inherit something. You do because you wanna be part of something, and it's great. Mhmm. It it really is.
Michelle Moujaes:It is great.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I mean, the first world leader to ever say love your enemies, nobody ever said, what?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Yeah. Yeah. And why wouldn't you want that to be the the the most important objective of your life?
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. So much easier than the hate thing, which, you know, there's plenty of that to go around.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Really is so much easier. It's so much easier. Harder than the hate thing, but easier in the sense of the the philosophy behind it.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. And the exhale. Alright. Do have time for a listener question?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Mhmm.
Michelle Moujaes:Alright. This is from Maria who is from Modesto, California. She is the mother of a... She describes shy nine year old. She asks, my son hates being upfront in the spotlight and refuses to be an altar server.
Michelle Moujaes:How can I get him involved in something real at church without pushing him into a role that terrifies him?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I love that. The first thing that came to my mind when I heard shy was... And it's just like Kyriacoujaes that sits in the pews and prays. Why not have him every week make a list of people he can pray for and during liturgy sit in the pews and just pray for those people?
Michelle Moujaes:That's a great idea. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:You... These are the people that you need to pray for. Pray for these people.
Michelle Moujaes:That's a really good idea. I think it also really teaches them about the importance of of as we go through the litany. We're not just praying for people. We're praying for the people right there.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Those who travel by land, sea and air. I mean. You know somebody who's on a plane right now. Yeah.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I love that.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:The sick, the suffering.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Okay. This one is from Jocelyn from Naperville, Illinois. She is raising teenagers who she says started pulling away from the church. And she asks, is it too late for this idea to make a difference with my older kids, or is helping them take ownership of the faith something that can still take root even at 16 and 17?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:What is distracting them from being part of it? What what is taking them away? And she should ask that question though too. And what what is the value that has been placed on the church in the home? Right?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And and what has happened? Mhmm. What's the purpose? They don't wanna be there.
Michelle Moujaes:So evaluate.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Evaluate it.
Michelle Moujaes:What is it that they are pushing back
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And give them give them the opportunity to explain why they don't wanna be there. Like, have a conversation about it. They may not wanna be there just because they're bored. And if they're bored, then figure something out. Yeah.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I had... I learned a lot about youth ministry from a Sunday school teacher that I had. My parents would give us... Me and my brother $2 every Sunday. Dollar for the tray, a dollar for the candle.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So we had $4 between us. There were certain Sundays where we didn't wanna go to Sunday school. Mhmm. So we would run across the street to the Greek place. Oh my god.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And with $4, we could get a big tirapita cheese pie and an orange soda.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh my gosh.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And we would split it. And then we'd sit there and we would watch until people coming out of church, we'd run back.
Michelle Moujaes:So naughty.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Sunday school teacher caught onto it. And you know what he did? No. He brought Sunday school to us. No way.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:He came across the street, found us, and sat with us and did Sunday school right there. And I was like, this guy's cool.
Michelle Moujaes:That is so good.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:That's youth ministry. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:That is.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:That is get the church to them? And if they're on their phones, do they know about the Faith Tree app? Are they are they looking
Michelle Moujaes:at that kind of Check it out. Thanks for the call out. Yes.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So, like, those are ways that we can engage our kids. Right? And if they are scrolling through TikTok, I'm sure there are Orthodox TikToks. I I I I can't... I don't I don't do social media as much as I used to, but I'm sure that there are influencers that are Orthodox.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Are they looking at those people? Are they are they are they
Michelle Moujaes:Although, call out, be careful for some of them. Yeah. There are some there are some wonky ones. But I would say to your point, there is a lot of content. In fact, I just spoke to a priest in Chicago this week who said content is not where we have a shortage.
Michelle Moujaes:There's a lot of it.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:There's a of content.
Michelle Moujaes:There's a lot of it. And so... But if you wanna find it and find good stuff, I think you can that can
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:really start at the top, though. The archdiocese websites and
Michelle Moujaes:the Greek archdiocese just came out with so much good stuff. Okay. Father, thank you for being here.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:It's it's my pleasure, and I really you having me.
Michelle Moujaes:Thank you. Absolutely. Tell us where people can find you.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I bet www.saintsophia.org.
Michelle Moujaes:That's perfect.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:So I'm there. I'm there more than Sundays too.
Michelle Moujaes:Doing great stuff over there. And will you tell our friends at the Saint Sophia Foundation how much we appreciate them and all that they make possible?
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:I think you just did.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Good.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:And so... Just so that you know they're watching.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Good. Well, send our love.
Fr. Gary Kyriacou:Will do.
Michelle Moujaes:And to you listening right now, if you've ever caught yourself waiting for your child to be older or more ready or more capable before you hand them something real at church, I want you to hear this. The goal is never to raise a future member of the church. The goal is a child who already is one, as father Gary told us. And that happens through deep and personal engagement and relationships, not permission that gets granted at some later date in the future. It happens best in the ordinary rhythms of your actual parish life.
Michelle Moujaes:This Sunday or this coffee hour or as father Gary said, this festival. So here's what I want you to do this week. Pick one thing, just one small real responsibility and hand it to your child. Not a chore, but a ministry, something that's genuinely theirs. Don't forget to download the free parent discussion guide.
Michelle Moujaes:And if this episode encouraged you, please, please, please do all the things that help podcasts stay afloat. Like, subscribe, share it with another parent who needs to hear it. You know all the things. And I will see you next time.