Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Join the Youthworks Ministry Support Team as they discuss how to have an effective youth and children’s ministry in every church in conversation with local ministry workers as well as national and international voices.
Get in touch - effectiveministrypodcast@youthworks.net
This is part of our House
Conference 2025 series.
We've had the lead up series, which
was three episodes, including the audio
readings of the conference papers, as well
as a group reflection where children's
and youth ministry practitioners thought
about the papers and wrestled with them
all to help us get into the conference
theme, the cost and joy of sacrifice.
House Conference 2025 has now
happened and this episode is
a follow up to the conference.
There's nothing quite like being
on conference, but if you would
like to follow along with the whole
series, you can listen to episode
87, which is our introduction to
the theme, and then episodes 92, 93
and 94, which is the lead up series.
Welcome back to the Effective
Ministry Podcast, the podcast that
helps you have an effective youth and
children's ministry in your church.
My name is Al James.
I'm a youth ministry advisor with
YouthWorks in Sydney, and in the lead
up to house conference this year, we
shared two conference papers and a
group reflection on the podcast to
help us all engage with this year's
theme, the cost and joy of sacrifice.
Thinking about the place of.
Personal sacrifice in the Christian
life, and particularly for young people.
Dr.
Viv Chung's paper took us deep into the
biblical language of sacrifice in the
Old and New Testaments, and then focused
in on the use of the idea of sacrifice.
In the writings of
Paul, while Reverend Dr.
Graham Stanton's paper explored the
beauty and the dangers of sacrifice
as an idea and an ideal for Christian
living, . And then in our group reflection
episode, we had two practitioners,
Jocelyn Bignell and Toby McGregor.
Help us think about what all that
means in the practice of youth and
children's ministry in our church.
And that was all to help us wrestle
with and engage with these concepts
before we arrived at conference.
And so a shout out to those people who
were at conference, it was a really.
Rich and wonderful time where we got
to wrestle with these papers and these
ideas and the theology of personal
sacrifice in the Christian life.
And at the conference itself, Viv and
Graham were there with us and they spoke
to their papers and they helped us to
wrestle in community with these ideas.
And as a part of that, we had a whole
bunch of questions that arose, and
some of those questions were discussed
and answered in our table groups
and then also in the room together.
. Many of these were submitted on
Slido as well, which is an online
platform that we use for q and a
on conference, and there were more
than we could answer at that time.
. And so in this episode, Viv
and Graham are back with us
answering some of the questions
that we left unanswered at house.
And so it's a really great
conversation wrestling with some of
the themes and the tensions that we
were exploring on the conference.
It's been great to keep the conversation
going, and so whether you were at house
this year, or actually you've just been
following the series along on the podcast,
this episode is a great chance to keep
reflecting, keep wrestling on the cost and
joy of sacrifice, and importantly, how it
shapes ministry among the next generation.
. And if you'd like to be part of the
Experience Yourself wrestling together
in community, taking seriously the
Theology of Youth and Children's
Ministry, and moving towards the practice
of youth and children's ministry.
Then make sure you join us next year
at House Conference 25th to the 27th of
August, 2026, and we're gonna be looking
at a theology of contextualization.
The conference theme is anchored
and adaptable, A timeless
word in a changing world.
And that's enough for me.
We're gonna dive in with Graham and Viv.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
We are here with Graham Stanton and
Viv Chung, the, the, the doctors,
um, Graham Stanton and Viv Chung.
Guys, it's so good to
have you back around.
You know this, it's been a while
since we've kind of connected.
Um, we had you at a house conference,
you delivered brilliant papers.
Um, and we're so pleased to have you on
Podcast.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: it's
good to keep the conversation going.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Thanks for having us.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Well, um, so what we're gonna be
doing in today's podcast is having
kind of reflected a little bit on
the paper, well, actually quite a lot
on the papers at house conference.
Um, we, we collected pretty much every
question that anyone put on, um, our
electronic platform, the Slido platform.
We've collected all of those.
We can't possibly answer all of those.
Um, but we've tried to kind of take
a representative sample and I'm
just gonna fire these at you guys.
And, um, uh, just before we
started recording, we, we were
mentioning that it's been quite
a while since the conference.
So if we go a little bit rogue, you
know, our, our listeners will forgive us.
we start, or if we have brilliant
new ideas that we didn't realize
that we had before, um, before we
delivered, um, papers at the conference.
Um, but yeah.
But I do wanna say before we start,
thank you so much for all the hard work
that both of you put into, um, into
put the, the papers that you delivered.
Um, and, uh, you know, like one of the
things that I love about House Conference
is, um, that it, we really do try to, to
contribute to, to a proper theological
discourse around youth and kids ministry
because it's, it's serious ministry.
Like it matters and you guys
have really contributed to that.
And, um, I'm, I'm just
so thankful for that.
And, um, we, as the delegates of
House Conference and, you know,
with all of the, um, the Effective
Ministry podcast listeners who are,
are not, were who were not at House
Conference, I'm special welcome to them
as well, but they get to listen in.
Um, guys next time, come
to house conference.
Um, it's a good thing.
So.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: let me
say al that I really appreciate.
Also, just the way that you curated
a conversation, a deep discussion.
Around these things.
So I reckon both Viv and I
really appreciated being in
the room as that was going on.
'cause it helped my own understanding
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
and you
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: that.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
and I and I, I really got the sense,
particularly from you, Graham,
'cause you, you did the second paper.
but Viv, you, you talked as well about
having Red Grains paper and thinking,
oh, man, that, that does, you know,
that like, that gives food for food for
thought, for what I'm thinking as well.
But I, I noticed the way that
you guys did interact with one
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
you, you both did go above
and beyond in that regard.
Um, responding to the podcast, like,
we actually don't have that expectation
that you guys should kind of respond
to every micro little kind of flex
of the face or anything like that,
because that's, that's such a big ask.
But we, you guys did go above and
beyond and we really appreciate that.
Um, very, very like, not everyone in
the room can do what you guys did,
and we really appreciate that you did.
So thank you so much.
Um, and it was, you know, like, it's a,
it's a, a sacrifice of praise and worship.
Um, I, I know both of your heart is that
you wanna see young people coming to know.
Loving, following, clinging to king Jesus.
Um, and so yeah, that was an exercise of
your ministry and um, whether, whether
it fits the definition of sacrifice
remains to be seen, you know, we'll, we'll
talk about that, but, um, yeah, really.
So I'm gonna dive in if that's
okay, Graham, the first, um, first
couple of questions are for you and
around the idea of accountability.
um, one of the things that got raised
a couple times was this idea of, you
know, in the context of especially
being careful around, um, the, the
language that we use around sacrifice
and the obligation to sacrifice,
you know, expect demanding that.
Um, and, you know, some of the,
the potential for cha, like
for the characteristic damage
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Oh,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
um, the idea of sacrifice.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: ugh.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
a couple of questions around, you
know, in that context, how do you
kind of deal with accountability for,
um, other Christians and leaders?
So, first of all, is it right or
wrong to hold leaders accountable
when they are volunteers?
we lauding our power over them by asking,
they attend youth group each week?
And then secondly, how do we
make sure we have reasonable
expectations on our leaders and
hold them to account with expecting
excessive self-sacrifice for them.
So there's that dynamic
of, yeah, accountability.
They've said they're gonna do a thing,
um, how do we, how do we approach that?
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Yeah, that,
that's a great practical question.
I think one of the things that we
were saying at the time was we do
need to distinguish between different
things that we're talking about here.
There's, there's things
that are hard work in life.
are things that involve suffering.
There's martyrdom.
Uh, explicitly of giving your life.
There's the, the metaphor of sacrifice
in that, in that sense of suffering loss.
And then there's the theological
understanding of sacrifice
as costly offering that I've
learned from the learner doctor.
So keep keeping all that in mind.
Yeah.
There's ab absolutely.
We need to hold leaders accountable
when they're volunteers.
Uh, there'll be a jumble of
thoughts here, but, okay.
Are we lauding it over them?
Well, we could be, but
you don't have to be.
So, lauding it over is when we're just
asserting our authority and just saying,
well, this is, it's my way or the highway.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
And in, in some ways without regard
for the good potentially that, or,
or, or at least the good of the person
that you are kind of demanding it of.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: So if,
if your exercise of holding your
volunteers accountable is an exercise
of your authority, that, that you
are just enjoying this, being able
to wield your power, something
really inappropriate about that.
But where we are recognizing that,
uh, together here are, here are some
commitments that we wanna make together,
if that's something that we're, I, I
would say you're discussing with your
team that there's an understanding of
what it is that people are committing to.
But once we've set that
commitment, then accountability
is, it's an act of, of love.
It's enabling us to maintain
the commitments that we made.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: So I
made a commitment to be here at
this particular time to record this
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: If I
had not turned up, then it's not a.
It's not lauding it over me to
ring me up and say, Hey, Graham,
did you, did you remember?
Um, we had disappointment, you know?
Um, it would be, that would be
sort of odd if I said, oh, you
know, Al, stop lauding it over me.
You're being so
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: No.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
I mean, it's, it's, I was gonna say,
it, it sounds like, one of the, the
kernels, the of important truth there
is this idea of, there's an agreed upon
expectation that some, you've arrived
together at a set of expectations.
Now, maybe that the leader has kind
of said, here are the expectations.
Do you agree?
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
But, um, but the idea, and so, and even in
the process of kind of, you know, arriving
at that expectation, and I, I guess one
of the things that your paper would, would
warn us of is making sure that we don't.
We, even in that process, we don't
use our power in a, in a nefarious way
or to kind of coerce someone to even
to agree to that set of expectations,
but assuming that that onboarding
process has been, yeah, we, we, do
we agree on this expectation then?
Actually I think what I hear, heard you
say is that to hold someone accountable
to that expectation that you've
agreed upon is, is an act of love.
Um, is an act of kind of goodwill, of
discipleship, of that kind of thing.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Yeah.
What we need to be alert to is that there
is a power that exists within the role
that you might not feel powerful in.
You might not feel like you as a person,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: I
feel like I'm very accommodating
and easygoing type guy,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
but I recognize that this,
this sort of self-assessment of
being easygoing and and relaxed
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: to other
people in the sense of, well, that's this,
this guy is the, the reverend doctor.
He's got this role,
and how could I say no?
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
I need to be alert to that.
I don't feel that, but
I know that it's true.
Because I've, I've understood
how, know role authority works.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: If you are
not alert to that as a youth minister,
children's minister, team leader, then
you, you are more likely to be misusing
your power 'cause you are just not
recognizing the power that you hold.
So in that sense of we're gonna
negotiate, what are these expectations,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: make
sure that you are giving people that
space to be able to say, oh, hang on,
that's not really gonna sit for me.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah, I think I heard, um, Michael
Bunga Stanya, who wrote the Advice Trap.
That's one of the books
that I've, I've read.
Um, totally secular book.
Like, no, you know, it's, it's
not coming from Christian point
of view, but, um, I think.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: ones.
, effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
The point that he was making was,
um, yes, in, in that, in those,
he's trying, he's talking about
trying to be more coach-like.
Um, and he talks about, he makes
a point of giving away power.
Um, and, um, you know, especially
recognizing when you do have the
power, but like actually being
liberal in giving that away.
Um, which I think is a, that's
kind of a, quite a gospel.
A gospel shaped kind of, um, approach.
Uh,
, Viv, I'd love to talk to you
about a definition of sacrifice.
Um, 'cause I, I, that was one of the
things that kind of, um, yeah, I think it
stood out in your paper is that you kind
of went, okay, there are all of these kind
of options for definition of sacrifice.
And yet within the kind of context of Paul
and, and his letters and the use of this,
this idea of sacrifice, um, you know, you
kind of honed in on a particular thing.
So there's a couple of
questions here, um, around this.
So, um, in no particular
order and I, I dunno if it's a
helpful lot of, but we'll see.
Um, uh, uh, first question is, is
sacrifice the best framework for the
idea of foregoing things of God suffering
or love more frequently used in the New
Testament to, to describe this idea.
Um, and then also, uh, around the
idea of definition are, are, are
there, or what are the distinctions
between service and sacrifice?
And how do you explain or reconcile
that difference, if there is one?
Um, and then, uh, is it wrong to see
Jesus' death as a sacrifice in terms
of blood spilled to pay for sin?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Are you gonna ask me those one at a time?
Because I just have to try
to remember all of them.
Um,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Abso Well, I mean, to start with,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
yeah,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
don't, why don't we, why don't you
say a little bit about, um, your
definition of sacrifice, um, from,
from the, from the study that you
did in, in, um, Paul's letters.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
sure.
Um, okay.
So what I did, and I think I made it
clearer actually at the conference,
is that there are definitely two
definitions, um, floating around.
In terms of sacrifice, one is a very
common use, I call a definition one.
It's a very common use of
the term sacrifice in our
colloquial language usage.
Um, and that just means giving
up, um, something, um, usually
for, for a voluntary loss of
something for a good course, right?
So, um, A soldier.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
is probably the way that
like most people think of it,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
And that, that actually didn't
come in until like around the 15th
century, uh, the 15th century or so,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yep.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
um, or even after.
And so, um, that is a predominant use that
when we talk about sacrifice in our modern
day life, that's what we mean, right?
Um,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
a soldier?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
yeah.
So for example, a soldier who gave up his
life to, as a sacrifice for our nation.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
So that's the first definition.
The second definition is
a much more specific one.
That is what I would say a more
biblical usage of the term sacrifice.
So if you look at the, the, the Old
Testament, when you read sacrifice,
um, or, you know, I recently, um,
read the Odyssey, for example.
Um, so you know, like Homer Ho's Odyssey?
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Viv, which language did you read it in?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Uh, in English?
Yes, in English.
I did not know my classical Greek.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Okay.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
But, um, you know, like, so in that kind
of context, um, in the New Testament
time, in the Old Testament time, the word
sacrifice would mean something different.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: that
is actually what we place on the altar.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
and that is given to God
as an offering, right?
So it is a cultic term.
It is something that is for
worshiping God, and it is the
gift, the gifts that we give.
Um, and they're burnt up, right?
So what is pleasing to God in that gift
is actually the aroma that comes out
of the burning, um, of that sacrifice.
And so, yeah, favorite
books, Percy Jackson.
You know, when they talk about actually
pouring out those, that Coke or whatever
else that they do for the sacrifice for
their gods to ask 'em to do something.
That is basically how
it works with sacrifice.
You give God something and, um, that
is to please them in whatever way.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I mean, that, that's, that's
help, that's a helpful distinction.
So like, I guess you're not saying that
that idea of sacrifice, like the first
one, the voluntary loss is, is something
that Christians shouldn't think about,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: No.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
engage in that kind of thing.
But you're, you're kind of saying that.
Sacrifice as it's presented in the Old
Testament, and then particularly as it
kind of, um, lands itself in Paul is more
in line with this idea of the, of the, um,
giving to God something as an offering.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
that that's the sort of, and it
has these cultic roots, um, in the
Old Testament, that kind of thing.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
so I mean that's, that's,
that's really helpful.
So that I, I'll, I'll say
those questions again.
So, so the first one is, um, is
sacrifice the best framework for the
idea of foregoing things for God?
Um, is suffering or love more
frequently used in the new New
Testament to describe this idea?
So it sort of gets the heart of that
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
doesn't it?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
I think that's a really good pickup by
the person that wrote that question.
Um, I don't actually think that in the
biblical sense sacrifice is the best
framework for talking about giving up.
However, having said that, I've
shown from Ephesians five that.
Within the two verses where
sacrifice comes in, it talks
about giving up at the same time.
And on top of that, you have
got a giving up or something
for God as an offering, right?
And so in that sense, they come
together, um, in the one concept.
And so it's probably not the
best overall framework, right?
Um, it's much larger than that than,
so the giving up is much greater, much
broader than the sacrifice and narrow
understanding of sacrifice in the
New Testament or the Old Testament.
Um, and so I wouldn't use the word
sacrifice as the framework as such, right?
Does that make sense?
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
And so it's a really good,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
idea,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
no, no.
That's a specific thing.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
let's, let's give it
another, another term.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, I think if I were to use
to think of a different framework,
I would use the word cost.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
because even love and suffering in
and of itself, which is what I think
Graham was really helpful in, um,
talking about martyrdom, you know, like
suffering in and of itself is not good,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Like we, we don't make
that as the ultimate good.
It, it, it, it doesn't make sense
to say suffering equal a good thing,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
um, equal good, right?
And so I don't, I don't think that
is helpful to even use suffering
as an overarching framework, nor is
love because in, in, in a sense, love
is actually, first of all, in some
ways a feeling that then, you know,
comes out in some kind of expression.
Um, which then the expression
might be giving up stuff, right?
But love in and of self is not actually.
Doesn't equal giving up
either, so I think it has to.
Yeah,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
you're, what you're, what you're
getting getting at is that the, these
things, perhaps some means towards
something is worthwhile, that is good,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
yeah,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
um, and particularly like, I, I,
I, I think I need to think about
the love thing a little bit more,
but certainly like I can see the
sacrifice thing that the sacrificing
in and of itself, like glorying in
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
yeah,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
or, you know, like hurting
yourself or whatever.
Like that's, just sadism or, or
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
depending on, you know, who's, who's
doing it and who's, who's observing it.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Except for the fact that the
sacrifice in terms of offering
to God, it's always good.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Like that is, you know, I had that
conversation with you a while ago about
what is good, what is good equates
offering our whole selves to God because
God is good, so therefore, doing what
is pleasing to God, offering ourselves
to him is always gonna be good.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
Okay.
Be, Okay.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: So,
so Viv, these ideas come together.
Then in Ephesians
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Five.
Five.
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: one or
two, this is what you're talking about,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yep,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
So the imitators of God is
beloved children walk in love.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yep,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
Christ loved us.
So there's the, that's the core, that
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yep,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: of
talking about Christian life,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yep.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: service,
that'd be the words that I'd wanna go to.
And that live in love as Christ
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yes,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: So that's,
you know, love as an imitation, um, as
Christ loved us and gave himself up for
us a fragrant offering and sacrifice to
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yep.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: So
that's where, if we, if we're reading
this, and so I'm, I'm just, I'm
trying to check, is my understanding
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: And
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: I
understanding you correctly, that if
we just operate on definition one,
then it's like we've gotta, we've
gotta give stuff up way that Jesus gave
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yes,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: His life.
And so voluntary loss,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: you.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
it's all about.
But if we really pay attention
to that fragrant offering bit,
well saying what Paul is saying
is we need to love as Christ
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yes.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
offering himself to
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yep,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: recognizing
that there was a cost for him, the
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yep.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: his life.
for us.
There'll be all sorts of
things that, that are costly
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yes.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
our living out a life of love.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah.
And I, and I wanna actually qualify
the one point that I also made in my
paper is the fact that what he gave up,
or literally what he gave, is not just
his life as in his death for his, you
know, in his death, but he gave his life
during his life to love others as well.
And so, and so, this is the, there
was a one question that I had.
Look,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
mean, and, and like I feel
like there's, there's something
there in the incarnation in
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
yes, correct.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
And in his death and, and then,
you know, the resurrection isn't so
much a giving up of anything, is it?
But it's like the con it's
the end of that process.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
And, and he's still in
that sense giving, right?
Like he gives of himself,
um, in all of his life, death
and, and even life now, right?
And so there was a question that
actually asked that, um, you know, God
only gave Jesus as a once off gift.
And I'm thinking, well, that's actually,
you know, it is, it's difficult
because the word gift, if you look
at Romans chapter 12, you actually
immediately after that, talks about
God giving us grace, which is gift
in order to serve the church, right?
And so the problem is that we have a very
narrow view of sacrifice as just death.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
But actually it isn't that, it's, it's
the, it's the giving of something,
whether it is, you know, in the Old
Testament grains or, um, you know,
drink offering or whatever it is.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
To death, and that's actually a problem.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
And part, part of the issue there as
well, isn't it that, is like we know
that Christ was sacrificed once, right?
So there's one sacrifice, but,
but then there's perhaps there's
eternal kind of, uh, consequence.
Like the, the, I don't know.
I'm, I'm not very good at explaining
this so you guys can help me out, but,
but this idea of kind of, um, know, like
Christ was given once, but there is a,
I I can see in your face that I'm, I'm,
I'm gonna get corrected and that's good
because this is what we're doing here.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
So the difficulty is that, um.,
It's the fact that if you look at those
four references in Paul writing, um,
that that is a particular metaphor.
So sometimes the problem is
that we stretch metaphors to
where it's not meant to go.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
similarly, there is actually one
reference in Paul that he uses the,
he used the verb sacrifice in, uh, one
Corinthians five something or other,
that talks about he is the Passover
lamb that was sacrificed, right?
As in the verb sacrifice.
And so it is a different metaphor in
that place, which is, again, different
in Hebrews, whereas that once for
all, um, sacrifice, which is again
metaphorical in a different way.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
so we need to be very careful not
to stretch, just like illustrations,
metaphors beyond what is meant to do.
And so the reason why I'm like, okay,
well let's look at, when we look at
Ephesians, which sets Jesus up as the
sacrifice for us to imitate, then that
helps us understand what he means in
Romans by sacrifice, um, in the sense of
being the whole of his life and death and
resurrect his, his whole being right now,
being offered to God to please God so
that we do the same in, in that same way.
And so, like I said, when you get to
Romans, , 12, , six onwards, I think 4,
5 , talking about how we are to use our
gifts right for God and to build his.
, His church up.
Then what you see is, again, a similar
understanding of what Jesus did in
giving himself, , to serve the people
, So Hebrews or, , one Corinthians
five, when it uses the term
sacrifice is using it as a metaphor
for his death in those places,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Whereas in Ephesians it's a metaphor for
his giving of himself to serve others.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: When
Ephesians five has got, um, gave
himself up for us, the, the up
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah, the para, which is
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: really there.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
uh, is not, is not there.
So it is actually just
the giving, handing over.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: yeah.
And then maybe the other problem
is that when, well, we don't use
the, the word propitiation anymore.
Um, so Paul, in Romans three,
God presented Christ as
a sacrifice of atonement.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yes,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Then
we're focused here on the crucifixion.
But Paul actually isn't, he's, he's
using a much more specific kind of
sacrifice, propitiatory sacrifice.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yep.
Yeah.
And you used a different word
in that case, in Romans three.
So I think it's, it's, it's kind of
like, you know, us just, um, being
really pernickety and precise in
the, in the user, in the use of term.
So, um.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
And I, and, and in some ways I
was, I was gonna say, in some
ways it's, it's understandable.
Be because all of these terms and
these ideas are swirling around,
it's understandable when someone
is kind of going well, but hang on.
Like, you know, just once, like
the one sacrifice, it says it.
And, but like, I think as you're, as
you're helpfully pointing out, like
Paul is using these in, in like these
metaphors in slightly different ways,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
we're just gotta be careful.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Um, yeah.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
yeah,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
it does make it a, a tricky task to kind
of talk meaningfully about sacrifice, um,
without being really specific and, and
careful 'cause, which we do every day.
Like, we, we talk about sacrifice
all the time in different ways.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah.
Uh, I, I have to say, witnessing that
conversation between, um, those two
big brains, those, two doctors, um,
yes, very appreciative of, of the
conversation that we've just witnessed.
Um, I wanna move on to, um,
the idea of agency Graham.
Um, so, uh, one question.
This, this idea of agency came up, um,
uh, you know, as potentially a safeguard
for, uh, particularly for young people,
but for anyone, you know, when someone has
agency, you know, we talked before about
when they've agreed to the expectation.
That's a, that's a safeguard
for kind of misusing sacrifice.
Question here is there are situations
where agency is inadequate.
Um, for example, age of consent, shared
trauma, Stockholm Syndrome among others.
So how do we safeguard the
miners in our ministry?
Um, I don't know if there's
an easy answer to that.
It's a pretty, um, heavy
question, isn't it?
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: I mean, it's
an extension of, it's a good question.
It's an extension of
what I was saying before.
I don't think it's, I wouldn't say agency
is inadequate, but agency is undeveloped
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: and we
want to be promoting agency where
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm.
So it is, can I, like, I, just to make
sure I'm understanding the question,
um, is so particularly with the idea
of Stockholm syndrome, that, that,
idea that I get with that is that,
um, someone actually, if you ask them,
do you want to be in this situation?
They would say, yes, I do.
And in some ways they, they have,
um, air equating this agency.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
but, but that, that's, it's, it's
still abuse, if you know what I mean.
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: And
it's, it's tricky, isn't it?
I mean, here, here's a,
here's a little example.
Years ago at YouthWorks College,
when we were down in Loftus,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: was during
the, I think it was during the holidays.
It was a day when lectures
weren't normally on.
And myself and Andy Stewart were the only
two on, on the campus, two, two faculty
members, and a student was around as
well, for, I don't, I don't know why.
And were saying, oh, do
you want to come for lunch?
so Andy and I invited this
student to come to lunch, and
he said, yeah, that'd be great.
And I said, where do you
want to go now for lunch?
Um, is Indian okay?
Because Mr.
India at Sutherland is just,
that was, that was our place.
So, and he said, yeah,
that'd be, that'd be fine.
Like months, months later, he confesses
he cannot eat spicy food, that he
really doesn't like Indian food.
But he was so excited about being
invited to lunch with the two lecturers
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: just
didn't know what to say, you
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: got, okay, so
in one sense there's compromised agency at
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Now look
at, at another level, it's like he's a
grown man and really you should learn to
say, no, actually I don't like Indian.
And that's fine.
So it's, it's a, in one sense, it's
a trivially example, but say halfway
through the, you know, as, as we start
eating or we walk into the shop and he
starts, you know, um, hyperventilating
or he is eating and his, he is now,
his whole face has gone red and
he is not eating any of his food.
It's like, I can now see
that he's actually in a place
of distress at this point.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
that he made there, there's
something wrong with that choice.
And so I think my, parallel is, yeah,
we can create the context where we
think I'm inviting you in to be a youth
leader, children's ministry leader.
We've negotiated the expectations.
Here's what it is.
Now, I don't know whether you
have felt coerced in all this.
It, I, I feel like I've done the
kinds of things that are needed
to be able to create that space.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Maybe though.
Well, what I do need to do
is keep paying attention
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
as a leader and,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: are
you flourishing in this place?
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
'cause communication is always, it always
involves at least two people, right?
And so you can do all the things and, um,
and still the other person may not have
developed, know, may, may not have kind
of the, the capacity or the, or whatever
it is that's kind of lacking in some way.
Um, whether it's the environment,
whether it's, there's been things
in their past, whatever it is.
Um, but yeah, like paying
attention to those kinds of things.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: So you
wanna pay attention to, to what are
the implications of these choices?
And that's an ongoing thing.
It's not a set and forget,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
a, well, you said yes back in
February and it's now September.
It's like, well, bad luck.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: we, we
keep on negotiating these, working out,
these we're responding as things change.
Uh, the other, I think I would say you
want to create a feedback rich environment
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: that has
multiple opportunities and expectations.
That people would speak their mind,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: So you don't
want just to have once a year there's
a survey that goes out to the youth
leaders, you know, with the question, um,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Are you happy?
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
is, is Graham a dominating,
uh, lording it over us person?
You know?
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: No, maybe,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: inadequate.
know that.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Or no, not really.
Not quite kind of thing.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
so how do, how do you create
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
that always there's, there's
always someone to speak to.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Um,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
And, and actually, I mean, what, what,
what that raises for me is this idea of,
um, you know, the best, the best teams
when you're, when you're involved in youth
and kids ministry, the best teams, the
ones that are, are, are taking initiative
that are contributing to the, to the,
to the, to the team, to the ministry.
You know, they're making significant
and valuable contributions, not just
because they've been asked, but because
there's a culture of that happening.
And so like, yes, it is, it's good for
safeguarding, it's good for kind of safe
ministry and ensuring that people are
not kind of under pressure or under undue
pressure or kind of being demanded un
unfair sacrifices, that kind of thing.
But it's actually also just
really good for the team anyway.
Like there's, there's this sort
of happy confluence of those
two things at the same time.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like it's all relational, right?
It's when as, as you get to know people,
that's, that's where ministry flourishes
because now we understand what's going on.
We can see
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: the
relationship that enables us to
set appropriate expectations.
It's relationship that enables us to
exercise appropriate accountability.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: the opposite
of accountability is just, I don't care.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: you
know, Graham didn't turn up well.
We don't really care.
We don't need his contribution.
You and Viv just have
a great conversation,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: The same way,
if you keep coming late to youth group,
it's like, yeah, well, well, I don't care.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Which is, it's interesting, right?
'cause that's almost always how
we rationalize something when
something like that happens.
Like if, if you couldn't make
it today, which you know, like
that's not the way you roll.
But if that could, what
would I say to you?
Oh, no worries, Graham.
That's okay.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Me and VI will have a
great conversation anyway.
I mean that, and that's that I know, like
I, I have spoken to many youth ministers.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Who, um, you know, in, in a, in a
desire to be kind of understanding
and loving and kind and accommodating,
um, inadvertently, potentially, um,
undervalue the contribution of that leader
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Mm-hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah, no, no problems.
That's fine.
Now, um, gosh, that's a, it's a, it's
a fine balance to strike, isn't it?
But, but, um, you know, I, I
think what the thread is in both
sides of the equation is that I
am for this, this youth leader
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
kid's leader, and I'm for their
flourishing, not just for their own
sake, but also for the sake of the
kingdom and also for the sake of
the kids that are in front of 'em.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
and I believe they're made in the
image of God and can make, and they're
part of the body of Christ and they
can make significant contributions.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna uphold that.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
I think, um, I was about to say that
there's a point there that besides
the feedback loop besides, you know,
just working on the relationship is
actually exactly like you said, Al
just that developing the other person.
So I'm thinking the Stockholm
syndrome person, right?
Like if you think that they have
some kind of compromised agency and
that they're not able to make those
kind of choices in the first place,
then it doesn't stop there, right?
Like you hope that you wanna develop
this person's understanding and, um,
renewed sense of agency so that they
can, so there's no longer compromise.
And so I think, I think there is that,
um, extra step of actually making sure,
sorry about that extra step of making sure
that, um, that the other person is also
then continually growing and developing
and using Graham's term flourishing.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: So.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
mm That's good.
really helpful.
Um, we're gonna go again with you, Graham.
Um, and this one, this time's
about delayed gratification.
And the question is, what does
it look like to uphold and
encourage delayed gratification?
How can our kids and youth
ministries be different and
encourage parents to be different?
Do you wanna start actually Graham,
just by like, why did you suggest that?
What's, what is it about delayed
gratification that you kind of went,
yeah, this is something we need to,
you know, lay out as an implication
for, um, what we've talking about.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: I think,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
I.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: uh, who
knows what was in my mind at the time.
But what I'd say now is if, if Christian
Life does call us to the costly offering
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: of offering
our lives, uh, in service of Christ and
there's cost involved in that and all,
and there'll be all sorts of kinds of, of
costs that we're, that Jesus, following
Jesus will require of us, then are the,
what are the lessons that we need to
learn or the, or the capacities we
need to learn to be able to do that.
So if we've lived a life of comfort.
Like a hundred percent every one
of our needs has always been met
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Luxury.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Yeah.
Then we're unlikely to be able to
easily, um, make costly offering
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
we've, we've never been asked
to make a costly offering in our
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: We've
never been asked to do anything,
which is slightly difficult in our
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: And I, I think
I just see that a lot in, in parenting.
I see that a lot in, in actual,
uh, our technological life.
So much of our culture is
about removing the friction
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: just trying
to make things easier and easier and
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: as if
that's the weight of human flourishing.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: No.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
know that's not true.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah.
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: So
idea of, I think I, I, I used the
line, uh, the example of when.
When a, a child has is hurt,
it's like, well come, come over
here and we can make it better.
Well, that's not always
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
Um, uh, uh, come over here and,
and we can look at it together.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Is it,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: how
can I help you get through this
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
different, you know, what do you
think God might have for you in this
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: hmm,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
experience of pain?
Um, that's, I I think I've moved a little
bit off the delayed gratification thing,
but my point was that the, the instant
gratification world that we're in is all
about just pursuing ease and comfort.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: I'm not
sure that that's preparing as well.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
is it that we now live in a pleasure,
pleasure, pain kind of world where
everything that is good is determined
by pleasure, and everything that
is bad is determined by pain.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
that the whole idea of delayed
gratification, even that term actually
in and of itself is about pleasure, pain.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
But it's, I, I do wonder
though that, um, you've.
The Bible operates in
a different framework.
And so, um, and so yeah, we
struggle in our modern context
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
to understand the goodness of pain.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I mean the, the,
like, the helpfulness of pain.
Like I, we've just been doing the,
the Joseph story recently, right?
Like, and you know, it's the classic in
chapter 50 of Genesis, you know, what,
what you intended for evil, God used for
good you know, we're not gonna do a the
Odyssey here, like we're not gonna this,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
you know,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
but, but this idea of um, you
know, in the suffering, in the
pain, actually good can result.
And we've gotta be careful with
our language there as well.
It's not that the pain or the good,
sorry, it's not the pain or the suffering
is good, but, um, good can result.
And I think we've gotta be careful
also to, to equate of suffering.
Delayed gratification, although there
is, there's some similarity there.
Um, but, but yeah, I think what
you're saying before Graham, about,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
that the, the thing that resonates
with me, I think at the moment is,
um, well what, what is it that,
know, like you would never become a
missionary to another culture, for
example, if you have only ever lived
a life of, um, a frictionless kind of,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
know, um, easy, fast food kind of
consumeristic kind of, because moving
to another culture, depending on the
culture that you move to, actually
cause a lot of friction and a lot of
inconvenience, all that sort of stuff.
Um, and, and so similarly, you
know, if you have never had to
wait for anything that you wanted,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
then the idea of the idea of
kind of living, living a life of
kind of costly sacrifice, it's,
it, it just does not compute.
It's the air that we breathe like net you.
The risk of sounding like an
old guy, which I know I am.
But, um, you know, like when, when I
watched movies, I would've to go to the
video store and maybe the video would
be there, or maybe it wouldn't be,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
maybe I had to just wait kind of to
see what movie would would come on and
I'd watch that if that's what, and if
I didn't, then I wouldn't watch it.
But now, like, I know, and it's, I
was gonna say my kids, no, it's me.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Hmm,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
if I wanna watch a movie, the worst
case scenario is that I have to
look it up on TV and maybe rent it,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: hmm,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
you know?
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
Everything's on
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
but I don't have to wait.
don't have to wait it all.
Yeah,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: So the
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: is that,
I mean, that's a dirty word, right?
In our culture, where.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
much that we actually do need to
submit ourselves to, including our
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: our physical
limits, submitting to another authority,
um, submit, submitting to, um, to time.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: And
the these, I think there are
aspects of just the, the, the
stuff of life that is challenging.
It's difficult.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: to learn.
We need to learn those things.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
Yeah.
And kind of rebel in our
finitude a little bit.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
Um, one of the things
that I, I have found,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
back against our synergy.
Yeah.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah, sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's a helpful corrective.
Um, one of the things that I, um,
uh, found myself doing in raising
particularly smaller children, my, my
kids have grown up a little bit now.
They're, um, uh, but I, I just,
I often found myself saying no,
because it felt like it was important
to be able to say no to my kids,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
so that they knew that they didn't get
everything they wanted at the moment.
They wanted it.
And sometimes I felt like a monster.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
in the, in the kind of, you know,
um, society that we live in.
But, but I, I think I look back on that
and go, I'm, I'm glad that I did that.
Um, it hasn't solved everything
for them, obviously, but, um, yeah.
Um, alright, well, um, a question
on eschatology for you, Viv.
Will there be sacrificing
the new creation?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Uh, um, it's interesting, even
New Testament, um, the, the Old
Testament sacrifice is done.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Um, so is interesting to think
that the language of sacrifice in
the New Testament is actually a
metaphor based on the Old Testament,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
right?
Because we are, we have the, um,
new age breaking into our age now,
and we are already a new creation,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
right?
And so in some ways.
We, we will always, in the sense of the
metaphorical sense of sacrifice, we'll
always be offering our sacrifice to God.
The, the pattern that we see now in our
lives is the pattern for all eternity.
Um, and so the, uh, because of
what Jesus has done for us, we
no longer need to do what the Old
Testament people of God had to do.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
And so the offering and the sacrifices
that God is pleased with is actually
us, um, loving others and the giving
of ourselves to others, um, to
serve them and to do good for them.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
And that's gonna be forever.
Sorry, Graham.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: I've just
had a, had a brand, don't know, thing.
Costly.
When you say costly offering.
Costly doesn't necessarily
mean painful, does it?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
No, are usually about mail or about out.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: yeah, yeah.
No, you costly offering.
So the language of costly offering
as sacrificed is a definition too.
I think I'm still operating under
this idea that costly must be painful,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's not.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
whereas costly is just valuable.
It's a valuable
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yes,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
of something of value.
So in that sense, we're offering
our lives and our lives continue
to value in the new creation.
We'll, we'll rejoice in this opportunity
to, I can, I can give myself fully
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yes.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
the work of the Lord.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah.
And the word I use in the, in the
paper is often the word extravagant.
Right?
Like it's actually giving everything.
So if you, you know, like if
I wanna show my husband that.
You know, I really love him.
I might make spent hours and
hours and hours doing everything
extravagant and, and making this
like amazing banquet for him.
And so the idea is actually, you
know, yeah, it involved costs.
I mean, I don't know how much it'll
cost to buy, like, you know, heaps of
stuff, but that's not the point of it.
The point of it is, is extravagance,
the point of it is, is what, um, God is
worthy of the gifts that he's worthy of.
And sure, that's costly,
but that's not the point.
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
And I, I think that that was,
that was the, that was where we,
that was one of our conversations
we were having on conference Viv
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yes.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
those, those ideas of costly
versus, um, you know, valuable
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
costly.
Yeah, yeah,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
yeah.
Yeah.
By the way, there were a couple
of questions before that you
did ask me that I stopped you.
But you know, there was a question
about service, the difference
between service and sacrifice
and, and thinking of tension.
Um, interestingly I wanted to, I just
wanted to give the answer for that one.
Um, interestingly, both of those terms
are actually cultic terms in the Old
Testament and in the new, um, so it is
about, both of them are about worship.
One of them is the gift that is given,
you know, placed on the alt and burnt.
Um, and the other one is actually about
the, um, the priest and the, you know, the
Levites, whoever's working in the temple
complex, um, providing service to actually
make that sacrifice acceptable to God.
Right?
And so interestingly,
both of those terms are.
About the worship of God.
And so I haven't spent a lot of time
thinking about it, but they're both in
my head under the banner of worship.
And so whether we use our gifts for
service or whether we use our gifts
as sacrifice, they to a certain
extent may mean very similar things.
Um, and so I don't see that they
need to be teased out and that, um,
you know, that they are intention
in any kind of way, shape, or form.
They're actually, I just wanted to
make the point that they're both, um,
about worship and they're both cultic.
Yeah,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
We can, we can think of them similarly
is I think what I'm hearing you say.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
yeah, yeah, yeah.
They're, they're about worship.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah, yeah, yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Um, gonna dive into reciprocity, , ViiV.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
one of the tensions that we sort of felt
on, um, conference was just this idea of
kind of holding together the idea of God's
grace being free for undeserving sinners.
, And at the same time that, , you know,
your argument was that the concept
of reciprocity was present in that.
And so, um, just to frame this up a little
bit, , on page 10 of your paper, you said
this, and I think it sort of captures,
captures the tension quite well, you said,
thus the gospel expounded in Romans one
to 11 describes both God's grace in saving
undeserving sinners and the obligation
of those indebted to God's grace to
give him thanks and worship in return.
it is within this context of grace
that Paul urges believers who are
indebted to God to offer him worship.
And the reason I, I like that quote,
is 'cause it, it does hold both of
those things together at the same time.
Like it, it does talk about this
idea of grace being for undeserving
sinners and, you know, the, that
salvation comes through,, grace,
which is for undeserving sin.
at the same time, there is an obligation
that Paul urges believers to kind
of, you know, to, you know, they're
indebted, so they offer him worship.
so I just wanted to throw it over to you.
, Can you just help us understand
the tension there and, and how,
how do we resolve that tension?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
At the risk of making it even worse,
I'm gonna, I'm gonna add something extra
to, you know, um, to what I wrote, um, a
couple of things here , one of the things
that is extraordinary about Pulse work on
the gift is how counter-cultural it is.
It was, um, in that, in the, say, even
in the Old Testament sacrifice, um, in
the ancient, the East time or in the
Roman time, in the great time, um, the
sense of reciprocity was always there.
That is, that is the way that
everyone has understood gifts.
And so what people actually did at
the time was to manipulate God by
actually giving him gifts in order that.
The God would do whatever they want,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
So for example, if I've got, um,
you know, a blind eye, I would
go to the temple of ESUs, right?
Who's the healing God?
And I would bring a, I don't
know, a, um, a, clay model of my
eye, um, and offer that to ASCAP
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
a gift.
Is
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
as a gift,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
saying?
Yep.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
right?
And then also I would bring probably
cows and whatever else to burn.
And then that would manipulate the God
to reciprocate and heal my eye, right?
So there is this understanding that you
give, offering to God in order for him or
her in that time to do something for you.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Now.
What is amazing in Paul's writing
is that he actually emphasizes the
undeserving nature of the sinners
who actually can't do anything
at all to bring about God's gift.
And that God's gift is what he, you
know, is actually, um, something that
he initiates and that he gives first,
but as a response, it's not anything.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
a second?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Sorry.
Yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
so I think what I, what I'm
hearing you say, I just wanna
tease this out, make it slow.
Um, what I think I'm hearing you
say is, despite in the cultures
that you're talking about,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yes,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
people would bring gifts in order to
manipulate the gods to, about some
kind of good thing that they want,
Paul's writing and within a Christian
framework, the believer doesn't
come and bring a gift to manipulate
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yes.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
But actually that the
gift is initiated by God
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
believers.
Is that right?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yes, absolutely.
So he actually, he actually
calls this the priority of grace
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
is emphasized by Paul and actually
also in Jewish writers, right?
So it is God's initiative in giving
the gifts first, and then as the
recipients of that gift, we then, or
like, you know, the, the people who
receive grace are the ones who then
has, are obligated to return that gift
to God by giving him thanks and honor.
And so, you know, that
is what I was saying.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
I just wanna stop you there.
So you've talked about the idea of
Paul emphasizing the undeserving
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah.
So that's
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
sinners.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
that, that's a separate
kind of understanding.
So there are two things.
One is priority.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
And the other one is actually
what he calls incongruity.
Right?
So, in the RO world, the gift
usually are given to people that
are deserving of gifts of whatever
gifts they are given, right?
And so, you know, if someone chooses a
friend to actually bestow some kind of
favor upon, they would choose someone
who is worthy of that gift, who would do
something that they want back for them.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
whereas God, according to Paul,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
actually chooses undeserving
people as well as, you know, he,
he is the one who first initiate.
So there are two different
aspects of give giving here,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
that is different to the, the
common understanding at the time.
Like I said, one, one is actually
that priority, and two is the fact
that it is a incongruity that it is.
Undeserving that people who can't earn
that gift, they're undeserving of that
gift and they're given that gift, um,
as God first gave, gave it to them.
And then in reply, you return the gift
in Thanksgiving and worship to God.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: So
in fact, there are actually six different
aspects that Barclay has actually found,
um, in course writing, but most of
the other ones, um, are similar to how
the other Jewish people understood it.
But the one thing that is completely
different to other Jewish writing
is actually this understanding of
incongruity, which is basically
the undeserving of the recipient,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yep.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
So again, I can, I can only point
people to, you know, either's
book or my summary of that.
Of that book or other people's summary.
But um, yeah, really helpful to actually
tease out and understand that yes, it
is within the context of reciprocity,
but it is different still to how
other people would've understood it.
It is co, it is quite counter-cultural
how Paul, has explained the gospel.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
So, , let me summarize what I think I'm
hearing and then I can see Graham's,
Graham's face is all kind of, oh,
I'm so itching to say some stuff.
So,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: I
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
so yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so I think what I'm hearing,
right, and is this idea that,
um, God initiates the gift, which
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yes.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
to how it operated,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Okay.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
um, in, in the kind of
traditional, reciprocal kind of
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Um, God initiates it, um, and there's an
incongruity between him and the recipient,
um, that, and that they're not deserving.
So he's not giving, he's not giving a gift
to someone that he's like, gimme something
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yep.
Yep,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
reply.
He's saying, he's saying.
You know, outta my love and love and,
you know, mercy, I, I give you this gift.
So it's the incongruity
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
and then you know, as undeserving
Sinners, having received that gift.
And the gift is the gift Salvation,
is this what we're talking about?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Um, so
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Or, oh, no, we're,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
would say that it's, well, I mean, no,
no, it's, Barclay would say, I mean,
I, let me just tell you what Barlay
said first, but Barclay would say
it is his gift of, um, Christ first
and foremost, and then secondarily
the spirit because it is Christ and
then because of Christ, the Spirit.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yep,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Um, because it talks about, so
like Roman's talking about the
gift of the gift of his son.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
so the gift would be, and
everything happens through the
sun, and so it's a gift of the son
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
and then the spirit.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
And so, so where we've got
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Transactional.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
more relational than transactional?
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yes.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
where, where, where we've.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
got to so far is that, um, God has, you
know, with all of the things that we
talked about, the qualifications we're
talking about, he has given a gift.
And now this is the point at which the re
reciprocity kind of kicks in in a sense.
, the way that I kind of, think
about that is this idea that
there is a fitting response to
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
gift.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
That, that actually, if I have understood
and received this gift, that it is
a fitting response for me to offer
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
in worship.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yep.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Um, is that, is that what we're talking
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
It is exactly right.
And I actually wanted to pick up on, um,
I think Graham, that was really helpful.
Um, the, the problem for us
is that in our western mind.
You know, when you think of Christmas,
you know, you gotta give a gift
and someone gives you back a gift.
It's transactional.
It's like, you know, whatever.
If you expect them to give you a
$50 gift, you give them back $50
gift, you know, that kind of stuff.
Um, but actually it doesn't work
like that in that time because
it is a social system where gift
giving is actually how people bond.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
It is a social, um, bonding,
creation, creating bonds activity,
which means that rather than us,
how we think in transactional terms,
they think in relational terms.
Right.
So it's, it's quite similar to how, you
know, I, how I think of my marriage.
You know, like everyone gives and takes,
like each one of us will give and take.
But I'm not measuring, saying,
oh, tonight I have cooked dinner.
And so.
You know, my husband has to, you
know, do the equivalent kind of thing.
Like, I'm, I'm just going, no, no, I
just wanna actually love my husband
and do everything that I can to
make my relationship with him, work
in him, seeing that I love him.
Right?
Similarly, he, he'll be going, okay, well
what, what would police give tonight?
And so it is actually a giving and
receiving in a relationship that actually
glues that, um, relationship together.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
I think that relational aspect,
um, has to be emphasized.
So, um, yeah.
Thank you, Graham.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
It's good.
It's emblematic of the conference.
You guys working together.
It's great.
Graham, did you wanna
say anything about this?
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
just that, um, it.
It, it's such a useful perspective to, to,
to, uh, cotton onto, um, I found Barclay's
Grove Booklet really useful, so he's
been able to take his massive tone and
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yep.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: abbreviate
it into a, into a small book,
and that that's a useful resource
if people wanna look into it.
I think it connects also with the idea
of improvisation and discipleship.
the language of fittingness
and appropriateness is, is
what Van Hua and Bazar use when
thinking about improvisation.
And that it's the same kind of idea.
If God has given him himself in
the sun and in the Spirit, which is
our salvation, our, our salvation
is to be united with Christ.
And that's, there's God's gift.
What's the appropriate thing to do?
If God has done this, what's
the appropriate thing to say in
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: And it's not.
Once we get, well, the, the
incongruity, is, is such a key
idea to attach to the reciprocity
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: I guess
reciprocity does sound like it's payback.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: like, I
can, I can match this, but there's,
yeah, there's, there's no assumption
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: there's,
it's obvious that you can't pay God back.
That's
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Yes.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
about, but we are saying that
there is an appropriate response.
This is, this is what's fitting
and this is what's expected
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: that
comes as a result of receiving this
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
And,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: gift.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
and there might, there might be a bunch
of different implications for youth in
kids ministry in this, but I think one
of the things that I, I, you know, as, as
I've been listening along and, and trying
to summarize and kind of take a step by
step, one of the things that I, I think.
Is helpful in this idea is that we were
talking about delayed gratification.
We're talking about, you know,
we live in an expressive,
individualist kind of world.
Um, that there might be some
kind of external expectation Yes,
within the context of that Inc.
Incongruity.
but that there might be some kind of
external, um, uh, expectation on me is
actually very counter-cultural to the,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
the world that says, any kind of
offering that I give to God needs to
come from the pit of my stomach, you
know, from deep within me and only
from only out of my own volition,
you know, that I thought up myself.
You know, I, I can only pray
prayers that nobody ever wrote down.
You know, those, those are
the only authentic prayers.
But, but actually if there's some kind of
external expectation, which is fitting,
and I think this, you know, this language
of it is fitting, um, then that's
actually a really helpful countercultural,
idea for our young people to kind of.
To, to, to hear and to, to be involved in.
Now, it doesn't nullify the grace of God.
Like it doesn't nullify
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: at all.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
the, the kind of, the, the, the
undeserving nature of us as sinners and
the, the lavish, you know, as it says,
is it one John, it talks about, you know,
the, the god's love for us is lavish.
Like it doesn't nullify that.
But someone lavish, lavish love on
you, is a fitting response and, and Ill
fitting response is to ignore it . But
response is to honor it and be, and be
thankful for it and to, and to kind of,
you know, return that love in some way.
Um, so that for me is the, is the pay.
I don't know if you guys have got
thoughts on other implications
for, for kids in youth ministry
or just ministry in general.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Well, I
think it addresses the discipleship,
evangelism divide that we have because
you know, our, our, our presentations,
evangelistic presentations of the
gospel is all about, it's all free.
It's all free.
It's all free.
It's unconditional.
But we kind of wanna say, you should
come to church and you should do this.
It's like the fine print the contract.
We never quite sure how to fit that
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: in the,
in this gospel presentation, you
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: and,
and so I think Barclay's work really
does address one of the, one of the
fundamental, um, problems, uh, that we've
had in how we just speak about what is
it that God is inviting us into here.
So I think that that's,
that's super helpful.
So when you think about, what
are we saying to young people?
What must they do to be saved?
Um, what is it, what is
the, what is the good news?
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: The
good news is there is this abundant
gift that calls for an appropriate
response that's good news, and, and
that the, the appropriate response is
once full of life and light and love
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Mm-hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: and so
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
Yeah.
, squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
We want to say that Jesus is our savior
and not teach that Jesus is Lord.
But actually if you look at acts,
um, the message is Jesus is Lord
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Mm-hmm.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
the key.
And the idea is if he's your Lord, then
you give him your allegiance, right?
And so, um, I think I actually personally
really like thinking in relational terms.
Um, so my actual pear thesis
is really on identity.
And so the idea that I am, I
live a fitting life because
I'm now a child of God.
Um, and I do everything to please.
My father actually, in my mind
is a, , a correction in some
ways to how we often think.
I think in the western world, we think in
terms of tasks, we think, we think of what
we need to do, how do we tick the boxes,
but actually we neglect the fact that
the whole of the gospel is relational.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Yeah.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
and so this idea of reciprocity needs
to be understood within the framework
of a social system, um, so that we
don't, kind of disconnect the gift from
the giver and disconnect the purpose
of the gift from actually is, um, the
purpose of building the bond, right?
And so, yeah, I was talking to, um.
I was talking to a couple of people
at the conference and I was just
saying it's a little bit like reading,
um, the Five Languages of Love.
And you go, well, actually one of
the things is actually gift giving.
And, and so in the end I think of it as
well, what's appropriate for loving God?
How would you love God?
There's, there are actually different
ways of doing it, and I think if we
think about it from that perspective,
it helps us to understand, gift giving
and the gift giving in reciprocity or,
or our sacrifice of offering our lives
to God and what pleases God in that.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Thanks so much guys.
Um, question, um, and this one
is for you Graham, and this is
too with tenderhearted leaders.
Question is this, what can I do
with a leader who tends towards
self punishment and self-destruction
in the name of sacrifice?
Any advice?
. graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Well, I'd,
I'd start with, well, I wouldn't start
with, you know, be, be, be comforting
and kind and pastoral content wise.
Understanding sacrifice, rightly so.
Understanding this as an extravagant
offering, which, so the idea
of self-flagellation and, uh,
and suffering loss is not what
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Mr.
Joel was talking about.
Like such an important theological
foundation and exegetical key and just so,
so gently read through these passages and
say, yeah, you could read Ephesians five.
And it's like, yes, you must
crucify yourself to be like Jesus.
But that's not what Paul is saying.
What if Paul is saying this, that Jesus,
um, uh, lived, lived a life that was.
the, the valuable thing that he had
in his life and his time, he was
giving that in service to of, of God.
And in that fine, you know,
expressing his fullness,
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: what does
it look like for you to take this
precious thing that God has given you
and to give that in service of him
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: in a
way that promotes your fullness.
You know?
So I think that
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745: Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: would
be really valuable and, um, I think
demonstrate that care for their wellbeing.
There's the if, if so, uh, we, we
reframed the, the self-love conversation.
Um, and I was talking about
love receiving the love that
God has as an act of worship.
Receive the love of God,
receive the love of others.
Um, well, you as a leader, you
can offer love to this leader
so that they might receive that.
So, so giving them that, that time,
giving them that attention, saying, what
I'm seeing here is not you flourishing.
This is you being diminished by this.
God is, doesn't like that
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Hmm.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: he's
not pleased by seeing you worn down.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
Yeah.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: You
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
And I, I remember on the conference,
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358:
seeing you being worn down either,
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
On the conference, I think I remember we
talked about the idea of, , full humanity
and being dehumanized like that, the
sort of human flourishing idea, like to
the extent that someone's humanity is
kind of promoted versus, um, degraded.
graham_1_09-30-2025_150358: Ministered.
Yeah.
effectiveministrypodcast-host196_1_09-30-2025_150359:
yeah, it can be a really, , helpful
pastoral framework to be thinking,
um, thinking about these kinds
of questions from, . , Guys, what
a, what a great conversation.
Just very, very thankful for the
hard work that you guys have put in
and for your Yeah, your self-giving,
, and your, , , willingness to kind
of, to serve the body of Christ.
So yeah, really very much appreciate it.
And, um, yeah, hopefully we'll see you
at the conference again sometime soon.
squadcaster-1985_1_09-30-2025_103745:
Thank you.